BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA

Subject: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: wilco
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:15 PM

It's no surprize that so many problems linger, without resolution, since people prefer polemic and hyperbole to fact. This hypothesized NRA/road rage connection is an unfortunate example.
      The perpetrator is a young man with an extensive psychiatric
history. If you have had the mis-fortune of dealing with loved ones like this, you would be less likely to polarize people on the wrong issues (gun control), and focus on the real issues: failing to treat people with mental illnesses.
      People with psychiatric disorders are very dependent on medication management. They also have rights. You can't make them take their meds. Even when institutionalized, in either jail or the hospital, you still can't force them to take their meds. Many mental illnesses are not receptive to meds.
      There are hundreds of thousands of people in both the US and UK
who are in the same position as that young fellow. In his case, he has a long history of this kind of behavior: and, if it hadn't been a gun and car. it would have been a knofe and a bicycle, or a rock and a skateboard, or his Nikes and his fist, etc.
    This man, and his poor family, will have to address these kinds of behaviors for the rest of their lives. Also, many states have no real provisions for forensic psychiatric services. In other words, even if he is locked-up in jail, he still might not get any meds or treatment. In many US states, the largest mental health provider are the local jails. In Tennessee, the largest provider in the whole state is the Shelby County jail (Memphis). Over the past three years, the US Department of Justice have been grought in repeatedly to try to correct the conditions in the jail. The worst was the "galdiatorial contests" where the different ethnic gangs would get the mentally disabled to fight one another, for amusement and gambling purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:45 PM

Excellent post, Wilco. People always seem to try to correct social situations with kneejerk laws which do little more than burden the police with unenforceable laws and do nothing to remedy the causes.

Here in Canada, at great expense (one billion over budget and growing), they are trying to enforce a federal gun control law. The number of attacks with weapons is not changing significantly (more knives being used- just as deadly).

We see mentally disturbed people on the streets in most jurisdictions, as lawmakers cut costs by eliminating treatments and institutional housing. The situation is now worse than it was 50 years ago. We are the ones demanding short-sighted savings in care. It's the old "I'm all right, Jack" syndrome.
The police are the fall guys, being forced to deal with the mentally ill, which they are ill-prepared to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:46 PM

I don't think anyone is unsympathetic to someone with a history of mental illness. But this case just has too many suspicious aspects to it, including the mother's and girlfriend's stories/claims, and the fact that this guy had a gun handy in his BMW. Frankly, a history of mental illness at puberty in the early teens, can't be used to justify violent acts in your 20s without some more consistent history. This is especially true when parents of early teenagers have their children committed to one mental health program or another when they can't control their child's behavior, and the child begins having school truancy and juvenile offender court related problems. Mental health treatment programs are often times used in such circumstances, because parents believe it to be a better alternative to juvenile detention.

My best friend is currently going through just those sorts of problems with her 15 year old daughter, and has been battling her quite ineffectively for over a year and a half. She has tried drugs, she has tried psychiatrists, and still was in court just last week on truancy and shoplifting cases for her child. So, while mental illness is something that we need be cognizant of, we also need to be cognizant of the ways that parents misuse the mental health system to keep their unruly and belligerent kids out of jail, which could just as easily be the case with this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 04:51 PM

Wilco,

You are absolutely correct and had I known all of the facts when this first occured I would have thought twice about starting the other thread but I still probably would have started it anyway, but with perhaps a different name. There still are some issues that are pertinent regarding gun ownership of menatlly unstable people and also the matter of the 5 day grace period before Davis Keene was arrested which smacks of favoritism.

With that said, in my former life I worked with folks with mental and coping problems, first as a jail house teacher and drug rehab coumnselor and then some 8 years as a social worker with a case load of "revolving door" cases of folks with mental illness. It is a horrific desease that society even today tends to have a view that is narrow, uninformed and terribly jugemental. And in most states it is getting worse rather than better as governors scramble for resources just to keep up current services. The Copmmonwealth of Virgina, where I own my small business, has just cut Mental Health by 10%! When you consider that it was ill-funded before the cuts the reality is that a lot of folks are going to suffer and many will die and a few will actually kill folks. This trend does not bode well society in the coming years and I expect to see a lot more homelessness as an additional effect.

This is always a difficult issue to discuss, irregarless of one's ability to get treatment and it's sometimes those who can afford to have their loved ones treated that are in the most denial. My 17 year old son has been hospitalized twice and has been on medication since age 13 so this is not something foriegn to me.

Thank you for starting the thread. It's an important one.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:07 PM

Whoa now folks, here is what the NBC affiliate is reporting:

"Diana Carr (pictured, right) says her son, David Michael Keene, has been diagnosed with severe emotional problems. She said he was institutionalized seven times between the ages of 8 and 13.

"He's had a continuing problem with impulse control, and an exaggerated belief that he was in more danger than he was in at times, causing him to respond in a way that was more excessive or out of line with what was going on," Carr told News4's Pat Collins. "

Because the shooter's mother makes these claims--and note that there is not a claim of "institutionalization" occurring since the shooter was 13 years old--doesn't mean they are fact. What is a fact is this guy shot at another motorist on the Geo Washington Parkway on a Sunday afternoon from his BMW. A mother's claim doesn't a fact make here. What other sort of claim would this guy be making besides a mental health defense to get his ass out of a sling here? I note the parents also haven't posted bail for their son. I'll say this guy has an "impulse control" problem all right. That is what jails are for--guys like him who can't control their impulse to shoot at other drivers on the freeway.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:28 PM

Surely a difference in attitude here, folks. The guy needs institutionalization, but is prison the place for him? And could prior care have installed impulse control?
Sounds like guest at 5:07 would just turn him loose on the guards and prisoners in a prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:30 PM

Actually, now I've just reread what the mother said (obviously I didn't read it closely enough the first time, just like everyone else posting in this thread. The mother did NOT say her son has *mental* problems. She says he has *emotional* problems and a continuing problem with "impulse control". This sounds like the bully syndrome to me, and NOT mental illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: DougR
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:11 PM

You mean he is NOT on the Board of Directors of the NRA?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:37 PM

Doug, it is the shooter's father who is on the Board of the NRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:04 PM

Noone who didn't have problems with controlling their impulses would be likely to do anything like this in the first place. In fact you could say that inability to control your impulses is a key factor in most crimes, including murder, rape, you name it.

If anyone has a history of serious inability of being able to control their impulses, what are they doing in charge of lethal artifacts like guns or cars?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 09:13 PM

Like I said, this is looking more like serial bullying syndrome, not mental illness. Serial bullies, which all road ragers are, always exhibit an arrested level of emotional development. While their language and intellect may appear to be that of an adult, the bully displays the emotional age of a five-year-old. They are also quite expert at being evasive and escaping accountability for their bullying behavior (which is why road rage bullies like to bully other drivers from their cars, where they often escape responsibility for their bullying behavior with ease). They also will go to almost any lengths to undermine and destroy anyone who the bully/road rager perceives to be an adversary or a potential threat.

Reread what the mother said about her son, then read the description I've just given above, and then tell me this claim of mental illness, with no supporting evidence, is anything other than building a case for an insanity defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 11:58 PM

Wilco.....we...(you-me)....are on agreement on this one!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Stick around..through a half decade......< you wouldn't believe the leftest, commie- pinkies lurking around here....disguised as "choir members."

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:00 AM

"People with psychiatric disorders are very dependent on medication management. They also have rights. You can't make them take their meds. Even when institutionalized, in either jail or the hospital, you still can't force them to take their meds."

Off topic really, but just wanted to say that in the UK if you are compulsorily detained (sectioned), you *can* be forced to take medication against your will and if the new white paper becomes law, compulsory treatment in the community will also become legal.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: Declan
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:40 AM

So the fact that the man had emotional/mental problems is an argument IN FAVOUR of letting him have a gun ??

I don't see the logic in this thread, but what would I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST,Fenman
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:51 AM

U K perspective is pretty much the same amongst those who shoot, which here is a tiny minority in comparison with USA. We have profound anti gun thoughts in govenment, and although already having the most stringent gun laws anywhere....except possibly Japan..... the administration is constantly seeking to change legislation rather than implement existing laws.
Dunblane would not have happened had the local police done their job even half well, but the end result was a total ban on handguns. The rider at the time was to prevent all crime involving hand guns. Now the guncrime rate in the UK is soaring beyond control exclusively through the wide availability of illegal firearms.
Pre Dunblane I was in an unusual position being a firearms instructor to the police under Home Office provision. Although I could write a book on the things I saw first hand inside the system, the general feeling overall was that HMG got it wrong again, allow the resources to work. Dont introduce new laws instead.
A gun is an inanimate object It takes the mind of it's user to become a killer, and you can't legislate against a madman, whether he has a gun, or a car, or a plane.
Here we have gun phobia. A few weeks ago a local village was isolated. All roads in and out blocked off, a "SWAT" team ready for house to house and a chopper overhead.........the cause????? a misguided 14 year old plinking at cans in the street with an airgun from a bedroom window.
Reactions??? From the public....Tighten gun laws!!!!!!! From the police.......We need to excersise anyhow!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:58 AM

Declan, if the man actually had a verifiable history of mental problems, he wouldn't be allowed by law to own a gun. The gun used in this crime was registered to the shooter.

Also, Virginia law doesn't allow a loaded gun to be carried in the passenger section of the car without what is called a conceal carry permit, which is a special permit issued besides the gun ownership permit, which allows the owner to carry a loaded weapon concealed on their person (ie, in a holster under a jacket, that sort of thing).

I believe the people who are attempting to defend the shooter are really looking to excuse the behavior by claiming he was mentally ill. Not even the parent of the man has said he was mentally ill. The description she gave of her son matches the description of a child most certainly bullied by someone, be it parent or other family member, or school mates, who has become a bully as an adult. That in no way excuses the behavior of shooting at drivers on the freeway. I won't accept that this man is mentally ill, until proven by the defense attorneys, who have a considerable burden of proof to present to get him off on an insanity defense.

BTW, I misspoke above in regards to two things--first, the suspect is the alleged shooter (until proven guilty, he is still innocent). Second, it appears that the state is holding him without bail (ie, he isn't allowed to be released from custody) pending a grand jury investigation. That is what he was just in court for, which brought the story to our attention again. If the court is holding him without bail, that means that the court is taking the matter very seriously. It also may mean that the suspect has prior offenses of a similar violent nature, which would make him a threat to society if released.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:56 AM

His poor family was poor probably because many of their bread winners throughout this century were killed by guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:23 AM

GUEST: You are right that legally this guy, if he had a history of episodes, would not be able to purchase a gun in the Commonwealth of Virginia, however, he would have no problem purchasing the same gun at any "gun show", where background checks are not required. This is the insane part of the law. On one hand, society says that it's bad business fir nutballs to have guns, then society does the *wink, wink* and tells the nutballs to go accross town to the gun show to get their guns. It's like a legal black market! Hmmmmmmm? Welcome to Charlton Heston and George Bush's America!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: wilco
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:32 AM

Great posts. Thanks. Psychiatric disorders are frequently episodic, and therw will be extended periods of stability. This presents another set of problems, since some of the obvious restrictions that need to be placed on people when they are unstable can't be imposed when they are stable. In other words, their rights are restricted periodically, and somenone has to be responsible for monitoring these folks.
    I teach classes to families who have mentally ill loved ones. Among the problems that they face are all illuded to in these posts: adolescent acting out vs. psychiatric disorders, getting the correct diagnosis, how to restrict an ill person, and the greatest which is denial. "Emotional problems" is usually a signal for this denial, where the family refuses to acknowledge mental illnesses.
    I'm not an apologist for this guy, but nothing is accomplished by trying to connect this guy with the NRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:30 PM

"I'm not an apologist for this guy, but nothing is accomplished by trying to connect this guy with the NRA."

I agree that nothing of benefit is accomplished by trying to connect this guy with the NRA, UNLESS:

That association can be used by the prosecution to establish a pattern of family and/or workplace bullying and violence. The story being peddled to the media by the family (and just now starting to dribble out) is that the alleged shooter was on his way to target practice with his girl friend. It is possible they were headed to target practice at the NRA headquarters range in Fairfax, which is in the area where the alleged shooter was arrested. See link here:

http://www.nrahq.org/shootingrange/nrahqrange/

The alleged shooter's father, who serves on the board of the NRA, has remained silent publicly about the incident, though the alleged shooter's mother has now spoken out. I don't know if the father and mother are married or not, as they have different last names. The mother is Diana Carr, the father David A.Keene (the alleged shooter is David M. Keene). The alleged shooter worked for the father, as a web designer at the American Conservative Union.

So, there is a distinct possibility that we haven't got many details that may in fact be relevant to the alleged shooter's family's association with the NRA. For instance, if there is in fact a verifiable history of mental illness that would prevent the alleged shooter from owning a gun, and the father's connections were used for him to obtain the weapon used in the commission of a crime, then we are talking some serious legal problems for more people than just the alleged shooter. Which could be why he is being held without bond, pending a grand jury investigation.

So, while I at first thought Bobert was possibly reactionary in his initial linking of the two (ie the son to the father to the NRA), the more I see coming out about this case, the more I become suspicious as to what is really going on in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:35 PM

And wilco48, while I appreciate that there are times that "adolescent acting out" (as you call it) is actually mental illness that the family doesn't want an official diagnosis for, I have to take exception to the way you are presenting that here. It seems to me as if you are suggesting that the majority of "adolescent acting out" has it's roots in mental illness. It doesn't. The majority of "adolescent acting out" is directly related to control issues between authority figures (parents/guardians and school authorities) and (usually) male children. Bullying, not mental illness, is often, though not always, involved.

Spend a few days in a junior or senior high school, and you will be able to learn the difference fairly quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 04:02 PM

Also wilco48, in your opening post to this thread, you said:

"The perpetrator is a young man with an extensive psychiatric
history."

Just where are you getting this information on the alleged shooter (he is not the perpetrator until proven so)?   I have seen no such information published anywhere with this claim. Can you please provide us with links to the website where you are getting this information on the alleged shooter's "extensive psychiatric history" or is your claim, in fact, just polemic and hyperbole as I suspect it is?

Subject: RE: BS: Road Rage Shooter facts, not NRA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:29 PM

Set aside the gun fror a moment - a car is a lethal instruemnt as well. If someone can't control their reactions under stress - which is what road rage is about - they've no more business driving than if they were drunk. And anyone who aids and abets them in driving is, if anything, even more guilty.