The great Muslim round up

Subject: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:50 AM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=564&u=/nm/20021219/ts_nm/attack_immigration_dc_3&printer=1


Today they rounded up 500 muslims in LA
The new patriot law requires registration.
The number arrested and taken away
is a secret to secure our nation.

The republican said almost apologetically
"You have to break a few eggs to make an omlette"

I told him
"Soon many more will begin to disappear.
Of course they won't come for you.
You have nothing to fear.
When they start coming door to door
you can tell them you obey the new regs
and where your neighbors are hiding.

As you say its only eggs."





http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/usa.jpg







Onward Christian soldiers
like nazis for the jews
We will vanquish muslims
for all of their abuse

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Nemesis
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:59 AM

(have read and understood the story) but not quite sure of the personal point you are trying making here.. if any ??

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:01 AM

How sad

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:04 AM

that you don't understand

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:14 AM

Reminds me of the Salem witch hunts where they would dunk the suspected witch under the water and if the suspect drowned, then taht proved innocence and if the suspect lived that proved guild and then they were killed for being a witch.

Okay, so the government says fir all folks of Middle Eastern descent who may have papers which have expired to come in and then they do, and they are arrested! Welcome to John Ashcroft's bigoted America.

Now someone gonna say, "But, Bobert, their papers had expired!".

Well, so have most of the papers, if there are or ever were any, of most of the Hispanics who now live in the US and I don't hear John Ashcroft huffin-n-puffin about 'rounding up these folks...

Yeah, the "ro0und up" is one Texas tradition that just doesn't seem to die off, except instaed of cattle, it's people, many of whom will be killed if deported. Ahhh, who cares? Well, I do.

Yeah, the rounded up so many folks in California that they ran out of the plastic handcuffs.... Whew...

Bobert

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:18 AM

http://www.theonion.com/onion3847/bill_of_rights.html

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: chip a
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:24 PM

Thanks, Bobert, I don't always agree with you but the hispanic connection is right on. Just yesterday I saw a story in the Atlanta paper about giving drivers licenses to illegal Mexican immigrants. This is favored by law enforcement in Atlanta. What a damn double standard. What are we doing to the "huddled masses yearning to be free"????

Chip

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Big Tim
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:58 PM

"the statue of bigotry" Lou Reed.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:16 PM

So what kind of symbol could we all wear, like the yellow stars or pink triangles, to show our solidarity and confuse the assholes about who may or may not be muslim? And, I'll bet the ACLU could use an influx of dues-paying members right now! This is outrageous!!

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:50 PM

Regretable but necessary under the circumstances...and Bin Laden created the circumstances, not the U.S. I support the decision and felt for a long time something like this was necessary but with the current tide of politcal correctness figured we wouldn't have the stomach to carry through on such a plan due to the outrage and fallout. I cannot think of any other way to guarantee mainland security.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:56 PM

I'm sure that was some attempt at satire, GUEST, but it ain't even funny. Not the least. And just in case it wasn't, who else do you have on *your list* and how far back do you want to go in removing folks to create a society more to your liking?

Bobert

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:02 PM

"I cannot think of any other way to guarantee mainland security."

Guarantee is a pretty all encompassing word. I guess you think that locking up or killing all Muslims and people of Middle Eastern descent will "guarantee mainland security" against people like Timothy McVeigh. Interesting thought process there.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:09 PM

katlaughing's suggestion about the ACLU is good, but I think now, more than ever, the Muslim and Arab American community needs us to declare our solidarity with them, but attending demonstrations and rallies in support of their agenda. Not a terrorist agenda, but a social justice agenda that focuses on the need for us to confront anti-Muslim and anti-Arab racism and bigotry, and to put ourselves in line to fight against these sorts of sweeps being used to jail immigrants in our own communities. Many of us live in cities where this is happening, and can make a big difference as the "ordinary Americans" coming to the defense of those under attack by our government, within our own borders.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:19 PM

Well spoken, G_0209. This is extremely chilling news.

The Persians and other Arabs I have met here in San Diego have by and large been peaceful and thoughtful people. This approach to mass "security" is so inept and counter-productive I am not sure where to even start!! WHat mindless hoggery!


A

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM

How utterly stupid. As usual, bigotry and idiocy replaces government action toward safety. Gee, let's detain the folks that show up to obey the new law! Hello? Isn't it possible that these are the wrong targets?

We only have the word of an INS that they are somehow guilty of a crime, and the INS's refusal to say exactly how many are being arrested and detained is particular reminscent of an uglier era -- and all quite "legal" because they are suspected "terrorists" by virtue of their nationality. There won't be any yellow stars this time, folks, it's straight to the detainment camps in Arizona and numbered tatoos.

Yet another blunder that makes this country both less safe and free in the name of "security." Security for who?

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:29 PM

Boss "Hoggery", indeed, Amos. Johnny Ashcroft and Tom Ridge are the two largest threat to the American way of life that the US has seen in the last 60 years when the reactionaries locked up the Japanese Americans, a policy which up to now has been universally accepted as being wrong. But look out, John and Tom are loose and Junior is too busy huffin-n-puffin at Saddam to get involved. As if he cares either.

Like I have been saying, *Welcome to John Ashcroft's America*! Man, I never thought that America could unravel so quickly but it's happening and there are way too mnay folks, like cattle, who don't have a clue and won't until the knock is at their door!

Beam my up, Scotty, before Johnny gets me first...

Bobert

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Porky the Buffet Slayer
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:56 PM

Amos,

You said, "the Persians and other Arabs I have met here in San Diego have by and large been peaceful and thoughtful people."

Persians, or modern day Iranians, are not Arabs. For that matter, not all Arabs are Muslim.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 03:43 PM

Amos and others:

Here is the website for the Arab American Institute (a middle of the road organization):

http://www.aaiusa.org/

The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (pro-Palestinian):

http://www.adc.org/

And this is a website listing contacts for an array of national Arab American organizations, including lists by regions, for people to get more information from on doing solidarity work:

http://www.hanania.com/arabus.htm

Many educators may already be aware of this excellent website, called Tolerance.org:

http://www.tolerance.org/

They have an excellent national map you can use to click on your area, and a list of human rights groups involved in anti-racism and anti-discrimination work where you live here:

http://www.tolerance.org/maps/human_rights/index.html

In order to start informing ourselves about the subject, here is a link to an article on the subject of roundups and detentions of Arabs and Muslims in the US from last summer:

http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2002-07-03/cover.html

Here is a Human Rights Watch article on their report issued this past November 14th, on the 1,700% rise in hate crimes in the US against Arabs, Muslims, and those who "appear to be" same:

http://hrw.org/press/2002/11/usahate.htm

Sponsor "teach ins" at your area colleges, and invite Arab American and Muslim speakers/teachers. You can use the Human Rights Watch publication titled "PRESUMPTION OF GUILT: Human Rights Abuses of Post-September 11 Detainees" as a beginning guide, found here:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/us911/

Contact peace and justice organizations in your area to organize a day of solidarity and action to stop the repression against Arabs, Muslims, and people who "appear to be" same--go to the Refuse and Resist website here for some ideas on how to do that:

http://www.refuseandresist.org/altindex.html

That should get us going, eh?

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: DougR
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 03:49 PM

Bobert: I'm trying HARD not to break my own rule but ...Hispanics? Who, Bobert, blew up the World Trade Center? Our embassies?, the WTC the first time? The USS Cole? Killed over two hundred marines in the mideast? Hispanics? I don't think so. Does this mean they are using racial profiling to select detainees? I certainly hope so! The purpose of the act is to catch terrorists, not illegal aliens.

But just to keep myself on track, ..."Away In A Manger".

DougR

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 04:49 PM

By your reasoning, DougR, based on the number of white American males who are responsible for "terrorist" type activities and the deaths of many innocent people (Timothy MacVeigh [Federal Building in Oklahoma City], Ted Kaczynski [Uni-bomber], Eric Rudolph [the guy who allegedly set of the bomb during the Atlanta Olympics], and plenty of others, it looks like we should start locking up people who look like YOU.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: curmudgeon
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 04:57 PM

Currently, the USPS is selling "Eide" stamps. Buy all you can afford to and affix them to your mailings, especially to Congressmen and Senators. Even better, lets go out and buy them all up -- Tom

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Hille
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 05:00 PM

Of course, I thought I understood .. but I didn't want to believe someone could be quite so wilfully crass, bigoted, ignorant, racist, inflammatory, ...


From one whose White Anglo-Saxon G-gfather was interned in the UK by the British as an "Alien" for the duration of hostilities

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 05:50 PM

In the year 2000, 87.9% of all murders were committed by men. Since men are almost 10x more likely to commit a murder, shouldn't we round them all up and imprison them? For security, you understand!

Darn thing about profiling, though: somehow somebody always manages to profile YOU, and then it's not so fun anymore.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: curmudgeon
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 05:55 PM

We must keep in mind that Bush and many of his toadies purpot to be Christians. Thus, non-Chritians are fair game. Since it's not PC, to go after Jews, and Bhuddists and Hindus are of little concern to them, they are now waging a Fifth Crusade.

Of course, Muslims from some countries are "safe," despite the fact that most of the 911 murderers were Saudis.

In your spare time, read up on A. Mitchell Palmer who spawned J. Edgar Hoover.

"God damn them all"

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 06:31 PM

Yo Doug: Who killed Sam Adams and Davey Crockett?

Bobert

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 06:42 PM

quote: LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Hundreds of Iranian and other Middle East citizens were in southern California jails on Wednesday after coming forward to comply with a new rule to register with immigration authorities only to wind up handcuffed and behind bars.

Shocked and frustrated Islamic and immigrant groups estimate that more than 500 people have been arrested in Los Angeles, neighboring Orange County and San Diego in the past three days under a new nationwide anti-terrorism program. Some unconfirmed reports put the figure as high as 1,000.

The arrests sparked a demonstration by hundreds of Iranians outside a Los Angeles immigration office. The protesters carried banners saying "What's next? Concentration camps?" and "What happened to liberty and justice?."

A spokesman for the Immigration and Naturalization Service said no numbers of people arrested would be made public. " enquote

Let's see: Iranians are not Arabs, therefore not targets?

How the hell did they come up with the idea of requiring registration as a pretext for arrest and incarceration? Sounds to me like someone has read of Hitler's tactics- and doesn't understand the evil connected to it. This is not someone I want in my government...

What's next: People of a certain skin color forbidden to enter certain public places or hold certain jobs or shop in certain stores? All this- and just one bomb in one suitcase carried by ONE person in one city would get past our defences while we're busy destroying our nation's soul.

I've made some phone calls- we need to get protesters on the street, even in a little out of the way place like Juneau.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:14 PM

Hmmmm ! recent history repeats itself !

Not for them a judge or jury,
Not for them a trial at all,
Being [Insert etnic minority of prejudice] means thier guilty,
So we're guilty one one all,

Through the little streets of [Anytown]
Early in that [insert month] morn',
Came the [insert 'oppressors'] and thier army,
Came to take us one and all.

Gareth

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:19 PM

Thanks very m uch, O Nameless One. These links will be valuable.

A

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:22 PM

There is a much more detailed article in the LA Times today, with some very disturbing reports coming from the victims' lawyers of the treatment the victims received. Men from 13 other nations are required to register next month. Want to guess how many will show up? Also of note is that many of the Iranians detained were jews, not muslims.

Hundreds Are Detained After Visits to INS

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:23 PM

Oops, forgot to mention -- the LA Times requires registration, so the above link is a copy on a third party site.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Bellowbelle (Guest)
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 07:38 PM

Hello...I posted at Mudcat a long time ago, but something at the time scared me away...I can't even really remember what it was, and it's not important now...anyway, I posted under the name 'Granny,' but, that internet ID is...well, Granny's...gone now (got run-over by a reindeer, I guess). So, I'm 'Bellowbelle.'   

Re this thread...

Things are so intermingled and mixed, these days, that our real concerns, in the future, may become more just plain territorial -- regardless of race and/or religion.

Especially in our cities, there are large, well-educated, respected families (as well as all other types) that include various religious (usually more than racial) mixes. These people are not often noticed by those considering themselves to be in the 'mainstream' of life, but, they're very much THERE. The one thread that joins us all is the need to survive.

Someday, if I ever sort out my thoughts about it all and feel like writing something (I don't really like 'hot' subjects...), I may comment more about what I experienced as a 'Christian' of sorts who (20-plus years ago) had a Moslem ('of sorts') friend....went through something interesting, and may have even escaped a murderous attack by someone with very strong feelings on the subjects of race/religion (I'll never know for sure if that was his motivation, though I have my own theories).

Can sympathies ever be pure? Not much more than religions and races can really be 'pure,' I guess....

We're ALL in trouble...!

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Neighmond
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:30 PM

Sounds Like Germany in the thirties:



With appologies to Saint Matthew.


Woe unto ye who would deny the past, for you are condemned to repeat it.

Woe unto thee who stay silent for the sake of conformity, whos tongues are as cotten in their mouthes.

Speaking as a Christian, whith wiccan, Jewish, a couple Moslem friends:

People who claim to do attrocious deeds in the name of Christianity are lying.
Christ was a peacable man, who only threw the money lenders from the temple. He advocated peaceful answers to earthly conflicts, leaving the final judging to God.

People who claim that being a Christian makes them better than non-Christians else are lying.
A true Christian will never judge the ecclesiastical value of his fellow man (leaving that to God alone), for he is not without sin, and as such has no leave in laying blame at the feet of fellow men.

People who claim they are Christian, and that non-Christians will always go to Hell are lying.
God created all.
All.
That includes Moslems, Jews, Wiccans, Bhuddists, and every faith that exists under the sun.
Every faith has some perscribed method for higher reward. People living as their faith decrees, without ulterior motives will reap that reward, be it good or bad.
Karma, heaven, nirvana, reincarnation, transmigration, and so forth.

What it boils down to, is as you do so shall it be done.

This I know.

End of sermon, sorry for the length. Pardon the spelling too>

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:41 PM

Hi Bellowbelle/Granny. I remember you, and when you left. If you want to know how to reset your cookie so you can use your old screen name again, let me know. (Although I like your new name a lot.)

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Bellowbelle
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:08 PM

Thanks, Carol! I'd like to use the new name, and I tried to sign up with it but I get that it's already being used. Another problem is that the e-mail I used before has been deleted (can't use it to forward, either).

So, I don't usually have much to say, anyway...I'll have to stay 'outside,' or, maybe you can help me and let me know what to do...THANKS...I'm not well-informed about cookies much beyond the kind I can eat.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Bellowbelle
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:18 PM

My e-mail is [e-mail]

I think I linked that right...

the site is http://bellowbelle.ws

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:43 PM

Yo, Neighmond, brother of Faith,

I often contimplate where Jesus tells Matthew, "Thru me you shall know the Father", in terms of what you have spoken. And I agree with you and not a strict interpretation of Matthew.

I think of folks of Islamic Faith. Hey, one God, Allah. And Judism, one God. Hey, we're not that far apart.

Like you, I am a Christain. Not a John Ashcroft/George Bush Christain who are trying their best to figgure out some scriptural justification for killing a bunch of folks for their own egos. Yeah, I would like to stand by and say, "Hey, that's God's call." but it's all of ours. If we hear God telling us to stand up and call heathens for what they are, then it's what we're supposed to do. Hey, final judgements are for God but....

Know what I'm saying?

When Jesus overturned the money changers tables, He gave us permission to stand up and be counted.

With that said, the US government is in *religous intolerance* mode right about now.

Heck with Jesus... WE GOT CHRISTIANITY!

Now, hands up real high so we can see 'em....

Jesus pukin' his guts out watchin' this Godless display of CHRISTIANITY!!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:06 PM

Hi Bellowbelle. I'm not sure what the problem is with your membership, so I've copy pasted your posts and put them in the Mudcat "Help" Forum, and I sent you an e-mail. Here's the URL and link for your thread in the Help Forum:

http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2005&messages=1

Good luck!

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:12 AM

Are they realy rounding up Muslims in the land of the free and plenty...or are they rounding up known Islamic activists who seem intent on turning every other place they inhabit into as God awful a place to live in as the countries they chose to leave ..so are deemed potential enemies within, with terror threats to the west being made daily from the Islamic countries...funny isnt it how not one of the fabled islamic countries has a problem with asylum seekers trying to enter their borders...here in the UK we have been warned this week of the likeliehood of a serious attack by conventional or other weapons by islamic terrorists at the same time as we have taken over a thousand kurds and iraqi's into our country already over run with fanatical muslims....I myself am married to an asian not a muslim but a buddhist it scares me shitless that should such an attack take place all Asians will be tarred with the same brush....thats of course if we are still alive after a dirty bomb or anthrax,smallpox or whatever diabolical action is perpetrated in our little country where we have long valued the power of independant thought over blind obedience to the delusiveness of idolatry...but with ever more swathes of muslims entering our tiny country for how long more I wonder ??????

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM

Better prepare your bunker, GUEST,Muslims yuk. The infidels have got you surrounded.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:24 PM

Dang! I had just heard a joke and thought that this post was a spin-off of it.

A cowboy, a Native American and a Muslim were standing around waiting for a bus. The Native American says: "Once we were many and now we are few." The Muslim says: "Once we were few and now we are many." The cowboy says: "that's because we ain't played cowboys and muslims yet".

But we seem to be starting.

CB

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Martin
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:35 PM

All of this talk about Christians and Muslims.

Try being a Jew in the same room with a Muslim. Or even in a market somewhere. You haven't got a clue what to be hated feels like.

I don't see any other group killing as many in the name of their god.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:40 PM

Alas bunkers will be no good against chemical biological or nuclear attack....It would only take one such attack to virtualy wipe out a large section of the UK while our silver tongued slippery wannabe president Tony Blair runs around telling us we must continue letting more and more folks into this country who through their adherence to medieval hocus pocus have managed to screw up their own countries to the point where they've had to leave....All one can do is hope that we are just being whipped up to wage war on Iraq alongside that cokehead Bush....then September 11 comes to mind,then Bali comes to mind..What next....Oh well life goes on,but for how long may no longer depend on our genetic time clocks...

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:56 PM

"I don't see any other group killing as many in the name of their god."

Then you're not looking carefully enough. The statistics on this site should provide you with ample evidence of why Jews are hated by Muslims. For every Israeli Jew who has been killed in the region, there have been many, many more non-Jews killed. This pattern goes back to the early part of the 20th century (even prior to WW2).

http://www.btselem.org/

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:58 PM

GUEST,Muslims yuk, your logic eludes me. Are you saying that you're afraid the Muslims who live along side of you in your little country there are going to wage an attack on the place where they're living using weapons that kill indiscriminately, thus killing themselves in the process?

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:49 PM

Most muslims in the UK are peacable and more interested in prosperity than Jehad ...In amongst them are the crazies the ones who believe that suicide in the name of Allah is the only way to their God....sadly the sizable underbelly of the peacable muslims are the fundamentalists who have already visibly caused untold suffering in every country they have infested with their primitive doctrines and intolerance...If our political leaders and the so called experts on terrorism are telling us that something big and very nasty is in the offing and that attempts at perpetrating terror have already been thwarted then what is one supposed to think...If the threat isnt from annihalation through terrorism then ultimately the threat still remains from colonisation from within by this brand of alien culture and alien philosophy from the dark ages...

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:12 PM

I actually don't have any response for you GUEST,Muslims yuk. I live in a country that at least pays lip service to being multi-cultural. The terms "alien culture" and "alien philosophy" don't make very much sense in the context of living in a country where every culture and every religion was alien to some group of people who were here before the next group arrived.

Just one question for you. Do you consider having origins during or before the dark ages to be a bad thing when it comes to religions?

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM

Considering that Christendom's exposure to Islamic Civilization was what pulled us out of the Dark Ages, I will suggest to IHM that all you have to do is repeat "I am a Muslim" three times and you will be off on the road to a better life--

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Nemesis
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:47 PM

I speak as the descendant of "immigrants" French Hugenots (17thC) and more recently German, Italian, Spanish, Welsh, French ... my ancestors all came here because they perceived life to be better here .. and integrated into it.

That's because CarolC you live in a very "young" country. When one can trace genetic/cultural roots back to Neolithic times and earlier and stand in a literal and cultural landscape inhabited and shaped by one's direct ancestors (Witness the 9,000 year old skeleton found in Cheddar, Somerset and who's DNA was a match with a school teacher in the next village).. set that against a cultural immigration that has only taken place in the last 20-30 years and which in places seeks to not just dominate but replace .. educational systems, political systems, culture, philosophy, every aspect of life as it is knowm ... with, in many cases repressive, ideology that has not progressed since the Middle Ages when Islamic culture was at its zenith.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Just Amy
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:51 PM

I hate it when you all start talking about aliens. Are we not all human? The aliens are the ones from outer space.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:49 PM

Our history as the political entity known as the United States of America may be very recent, Hille, but it would be the hight of hubris for me to say that the history of the continent on which I live is only recent. And I think there are any number of religions, some of them the religions of the people who were here before 1492, that have not changed substantially since the period of time you refer to as the "middle ages". And yet it would be the height of hubris for me to suggest that they are any less valid than any other religion found in the world today.

As far as repression goes, even modern day Christianity has aspects that many people find repressive. Personally, I find all organised religions to be repressive in one way or another. But that's just me.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 10:02 PM

"set that against a cultural immigration that has only taken place in the last 20-30 years and which in places seeks to not just dominate but replace .. educational systems, political systems, culture, philosophy, every aspect of life as it is knowm ... with, in many cases repressive, ideology..."

I've not seen a single example of any immigrant group to the west trying to replace the culture to which they immigrate, let alone Islam. They, of course, maintain their own cultural identity and religion, especially for a time, but that's pretty standard. Eventually some of these cultural attributes become integrated into and accepted by society at large, just as the immigrant groups eventually adopt new customs. Food, music, holiday traditions, etc.

The US has a lot of experience with immigrant waves. Each wave of immigrants has been reviled and persecuted as being less than human -- the Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican and Central Americans, and so forth. All left in their wake an America much richer for their contributions. It shouldn't be surprising that immigrants from the middle east are treated with the same contempt, but you'd have thought we'd have learned our lesson by now.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: DougR
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 01:07 AM

Carol C: I just read your earlier reply to my post. Seems to me after naming three terrorist that look like me, you ran out of names pretty fast. a "lot of others" implies there were a lot more but I don't recall that many. Enlighten me, por favor.

DougR

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 01:14 AM

I don't think it was running out of names as much as running out of time, DougR. I've got company coming in a few days, and holiday stuff to deal with. I'll see what I can do though. We'll call it your Christmas present, ok?

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 05:32 PM

Yes CarolC you definitely do live in a country that only pays lips service to multiculteralism....you live in a country that stole the lands of the native peoples...who's ancient and beautiful culture could have lived on in harmony with nature for ever..the native American Indians understood the true nature of the world and its elements,they didnt justcreate tinpot Gods..their Gods were the elements ..the sun the moon the sky water air and earth and the heavens and your ancestors chose to eradicate their truly harmonious way of life at the barrel of a gun....Sadly I can see nothing harmonious about the Islamic way of life in which individual thought is eliminated in favour of blind obedience to medieval base beliefs that have stifled the modern development of nations that through their irefutable inherent power of invention were once capable of great things..now they are only capable of reppression of virtualy all rational thought through stone-age brainwashing and standing still transfixed in a time dating back some 1500 years..Unlike America until now Britain has been truly tolerant and compassionate to all races and creeds...Britain dropped segregation on racial grounds from the time of William Wilberforce whilst large swathes of America still had such racist laws in force right up until the late nineteen sixties,Alas that tolerant culture is being undermined as us the indigineous people of this small but enormously influential Island are being outnumbered by the restless disorganised cultures of the third world,of these third world cultures I'd say Islam is the greatest threat with its insatiable desire to re-impose the dark ages on all nations and peoples it touches....

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: DougR
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 05:37 PM

Uh ...anybody other than me smell a flamer?

Thanks, Carol C, that would be a wonderfuly Christmas present!

DougR

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:59 PM

Yo Doug: GUEST isn't exactly a "flamer". He or she is consistent in their POV on Islamic fundamentlists and, while I am not in total agreement, I do find GUEST to be formidable and not one to be dismissed easily.

With that said, I think GUEST and I would agree that "fundamentalism" in itself is dangerous to freedom loving people. Intolerance is the cornerstone of fundamentalism. Doesn't matter which "religion* you take, it's that same core of folks who occupy the right winged (for lack of a better term...) segment of their respective *religion*.

Problem is that, just like fundamentalist Chistains, these folks are using their own interpretations to justify intolerance, dogmatism and a burning need to control vast numbers of people.

Second problem is that God somehow gets left out of their *brand8 of *religion*.

Third problem is that the rest of us get our butts shot up in their crossfires and most of the time it is our butts who do 100% of the fighting, and dieing...

Bobert

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 07:01 PM

Giberish all around. Weren't the native Americans scalping each other for 10, 15,000 years? Didn't many of them stampede buffalo herds over cliffs as the easy way for a glutonous kill? Hasn't Britain been overrun by waves of invading immigrants over the past 10, 15,000 years? Aren't the Brits with their recent penchant for cultural invasion and domination primarily responsible for what happened to the Native Americans?

And it was only mitochondrial DNA, anyway.

Nope, can't work all this stuff out. Maybe that's what makes it a flame thread.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 10:25 PM

Guest,Muslims yuk,

Be advised that I did not choose the phrase "pay lip service" with reference to multiculturalism in the US lightly. I knew exactly what I was saying.

Be advised, also, that you are making some pretty hefty assumptions about my ancestors. You know nothing about them. For all you know, my ancestors could have been those very people the Europeans stole the land from.

As it happens, they were not. My ancestors were living in other parts of the world until my father's parents and my mother's grandparents came here in the late 1800s and early 1900s. So whatever awful things they may have been doing, they weren't doing them here in the US.

I don't see any possibility of having any kind of thoughtful discussion with you, so I'm going to assume that you are just a troll.

GUEST, 21 Dec 02 - 07:01 PM,

It wasn't the Indians who were stampeding the buffalo over cliffs. It was the "Americans" of European descent. They did it as a part of their campaign of genocide against the indigenous people of this continent, knowing that the Indians depended on the buffalo to survive. Many people starved to death because of tactics like these. I think you are probably just a troll as well.

DougR, it's going to have to wait a few days, I'm afraid. Me and Mr. the Sailor are fighting a stomach flu right now, and I just don't have the stomach (pun intended) for doing any heavy research.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: DougR
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 11:37 PM

Hey, Carol C., I'm sorry you're ailing! Drink lots of liquids (not booze)get lots of rest because you and your sailor man don't want to be ill when Santa comes! As to the research, forget it! 'Tis the Christmas season and no time to be doing such research.

DougR

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 11:49 PM

Hatred is a quick and easy sell for most plain folks.
Its us or them.
Its US Its US, every time.

Whatever side you're on
you had to be carefully taught.

This holiday some of you will be attending religious events
listening to the message of peace and hope for the world
but most of you are anticipating war.
Peace on Earth, good will toward men
never was and will never be
So lets kill those that don't agree.

The US invasion of Iraq will be the capper to the Super Bowl.
Cocked and locked, locked and loaded
TV puts a proud face on the killing with maps and animations.

All the left publications and radio stations bought up by multi billionaires will dillute the tributaries of common sense with fluff.

Ann Coulters will shout down those who miss the bill of rights.
But we will have more oil, religious fervor and fights.
Cable TV with 100 stations and no reporters
every single night.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:10 AM

CarolC Alas calling me a troll realy isnt a very convincing argument..I have been married for over 10 years to an Asian,I have always enjoyed the company and respected the intelligience of Asian people,but that is the Asians who can see beyond thje religious hocus pocus that has held the Indian continent in a medieval timewarp....I dont see modern moderate christianity judaism Hinduism or Buddhism as seeking to turn the world back to a time when we were frightened by imaginary ghosts and gouls,but alas Islam is all about creating demons through which human tyrants can reign....As for God if such an entity exists it is not any man made entity as embodied by all the major religions...God is the universe the stars the moon the air the water the sunshine the soil our fellow creatures our hoped for love for each other...God aint rhetoric old scripture written before we knew the world was round and why an apple falls to the gound..its not taking sides or creating movements or large (admittadly beautiful) monuments or getting down on guilt ridden bended knee every Sunday morning or at sundown...The greatest God we can respect is this sphere we are all glued to by Newtons law and a belief that good deeds help to make our Eden a truly good place to inhabit for our short tenure in it....

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:11 PM

That was almost thoughtful, GUEST,Muslims yuk. At least it doesn't sound anywhere near as hateful as your previous posts.

You need to spend some time among fundamentalist Christians here in the US. And also some of the fundamentalist Jews in Israel/Palestine. Maybe then you would see the counterparts of the fumdamentalist Muslims you've come to hate. And in the case of these two groups of people (fundamentalist Christians and Jews), they, too are tring to mold the world into their idea of how it should be. They are currently running the majority governments in the US and Israel/Palestine. Keep in mind, though, that as with Christianity and Judaism, there are also many Muslims who do not fit your fundamentalist description.

The greatest God we can respect is this sphere we are all glued to by Newtons law and a belief that good deeds help to make our Eden a truly good place to inhabit for our short tenure in it....

This will never be accomplished through hate.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 08:00 PM

Ditto, CarolC. I've tried to make this point to GUEST over the last several months on various threads, but GUEST sees only Islamic fundamentalism as the problem.

(Sorry about your and J the S illnesses BUT at least you have missed one nasty ice storm in your old neighborhood.)

Bobert

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 04:16 PM

CarolC if anybody is being hateful in this discussion it is you with your attack the messenger rather than discuss the issues being addressed approach to debate...

As for Boberts comments I think you must have been discussing this matter with somebody else...my first post on it was the 20th December...

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 04:23 PM

Maybe, GUEST,Muslims yuk. But tell me this: in what way is the name you've been signing in to this thread with; "Muslims yuk!!!" not a expression of hate?

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,London Laddie
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 05:10 PM

CarolC its an old English approach called Irony .....

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 01:02 AM

So, London Laddie, you're saying that GUEST,Muslims yuk!!!! is employing irony as a way to illustrate the flaws in the thought processes of people who say things like what GUEST,Muslims yuk has been saying in his/her posts to this thread?

That's bloody brilliant!!!

P.S. Thanks DougR and Bobert!

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: mooman
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:21 AM

Dear CarolC,

Though we've never met, I've come to regard you as a friend over the years through the agreement we often have in our posts, especially on matters environmental, and through our common contact Skipjack who is a good personal friend of mine.

Don't get riled up too much by some of the posts here. As it happens, I'm a Buddhist married to a Catholic for 25 years and have very good Hindu, Jewish and Muslim friends, all decent and moderate people to the core. I have also lived in some of the most multicultural parts of London for a long time, like Brixton, and have seen the causes of and, very occasionally solutions to, a lot of the racial and "religious" tensions over the years.

I suppose Guest, M.y. could be living in the proximity of a large Muslim community and it is certainly true that the events of the past couple of years (and also the tension of seemingly inevitable forthcoming events) have caused some polarization in these normally peaceable communities such that an element of fanaticism supported by some of the more extreme Mullahs has come more to the fore. Like any form of extremism, the root causes of it need to be analyzed and it also needs to be recognized that only a small percentage of the community affected ever get involved in this extremism.

Certainly, an over-literal reading of parts of the Koran (or the Bible for that matter) can give some people justification for extreme views but this is not the usual or normal case. If one looks at the main theological "pillars" of both Christianity and Islam, there is more is common than that which separates.

Coming back to the main theme of this thread, what is happening seems to me to be yet another deplorable kneejerk by some of the more reactionary elements of the US administration.

At this time of year....

Peace and compassion to all beings

mooman

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 06:09 AM

"I don't see any other group killing as many in the name of their god."

Umm... Americans? Only their god is money. Look at the history of the last half-century, what the Americans' government secret services have done in countries such as Vietnam, Cambodia, Argentina, Chile... where do I stop?

By the way, can someone enlighten me about this "genetic typing" business? As I understand it, there's no way of assessing a person's race by genetic testing - white people are just as likely to have an African background, for instance.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Troll
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 07:23 AM

CarolC,
There have been bone deposits found dating back hundreds of years before the Europeans ever came to North America that clearly indicate a stampede over a cliff and butchery thereafter.
These deposites have been found in Central Europe as well. The finds have been well documented by reputable archaelogists and anthropologists.
Ascribing this to the white mans "genocidal" policies toward the American Indian tribes is a new one for me.I have honestly never heard of it before.
Can you cite me a source? I would prefer a scholarly one to an article written by someone with a political axe to grind.
Have a good Christmas if you celerrate it and if not, have a good winter solstice holiday.

troll

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,boab_d
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 10:05 AM

OK most points are valid but if you look at all people who are being or have been persecuted over the years they now are the ones who end up as the hero's all of this is just political and when the wind changes to North Korea then all of the people of Arabian or Eastern decent will fit nicely into the way of things for the next however many years until one individual commits an attrocity. But the thing is that if the're part of the WHITE FOLKS then its a pisser and not an outside threat but as soon as the person or party comes from outside the country of the attack then that country becomes a target for being the homeland of one person.
    In reality things should be done to try and halt the spread of the extremists, but you cant change the way that people think nor control there actions no matter how hard you try because thats what makes people people they are individuals.Its a fact of life .
Dylan

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 11:28 AM

All this talk of moderate muslims is all fine and dandy of course most are peacable,but can one of you apologists for a religion that has left its followers in a medieval timewarp pinpoint one muslim nation with an asylum problem.one muslim nation where people from the far flung corners of the world flock to as a place offering them a nation they can freely live their lives...in America at the African ..just take a look at the black American muslim movement and see what their leader has been saying causing him to be banned from entering the UK

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Renegade
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 12:12 PM

I read quickly, but the great liberal thinkers and posters here are slipping. The analogy to Nazi Germany wasn't made until about the 20th or so post. Usually that's the first thing you howl about.

Being a conservative, I think all liberals have soft heads, present company included. That's my bias, of course, talking, and I say it, believe it or not, with great affection. You may be softheads, but you're OUR softheads, and we'll defend your right to say stupid things forever and ever.   

Regardless, to me, this threat of terrorism is real, and to use an A. Lincoln analogy: the poisonous snake is in your child's bed, as your child is sleeping. What do you do?

You great champions of civil liberties/PC/multi-culturalism/diversity/tolerance and all the other feel-good buzzwords will scream out of the other sides of your mouths if and when another 9/11 happens. Especially if they hit your town. When the snake bites your child, you'll want more than 500 detained, I'll wager.

I am willing to vote for security for my children and their future over some illegal aliens being inconvenienced. The choice is an obvious no-brainer; that liberals can't make the choice is again evidence of shallow and ultimately dangerous thinking.

Last, I nevertheless consider the creative tensions within our laws and Constitution as another sign of native American genius. So I am delighted to read that, and I'm no fan of the organization, ACLU
membership is UP more so now than in the last 20 years or so. Isn't that a great sign of the vitality of this country and and an unerring adherence to that creative tension? I think so, and it makes me feel proud of this country, and gives me one more indication that my children do have a future.

I do wish everyone, in or out of the USA, a peaceful Christmas, or whatever I'm now supposed to call it, with the hope of more to come.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 03:32 PM

Hi mooman. Thanks for the kind words.

I'm not so much getting riled up by some of the posts here as I am getting concerned when I see entire groups of people being scapegoated because of the actions of a few members of the group. We've seen where that sort of thing leads before, and I think we can agree that it's not pretty.

Troll, I think I chose my words badly. Where I went wrong is with the way I was thinking of the word "stampede". In my mind, stampede meant sending huge buffalo herds over cliffs, without any regard for whether or not the dead animals were needed for survival, or used for that purpose.

Here's the difference between what the Indians did and what the Europeans did. The Indians chased limited numbers of buffalo over cliffs and then used every part of all of the dead buffalo for their survival. The Europeans stampeded vast herds of buffalo over cliffs simply in order to deprive the Indians of their livelihood, and to get rich from the buffalo pelts and tongues. They left the carcasses to rot in the sun. I'll provide some links for you later, when I have more time.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:48 PM

God, but don't some people live in such a tiny time frame?

There've been times in history when the islamic parts of the world were the civilised and cuitured and tolerant ones, conmpared with their pretty rough barbaric and intolerant Christian neighbours. Most especially if you were Jewish. There were certainly plenty of Jewish refugees from Spain to the Islam at one time, fleeing persecution by Christians.

And there've been times when it works the other way round. Things change. Right now it looks as if the wheeel's in spin again, and the tolerance that was supposed to be absolutely basic to the biggest Christian nation is starting to unravel.

Once again, it's all going Bin Laden's way. Thousands of Muslims who were cheerfully concentrating on making lives in the new lands their families had settled in are being pushed and prodded into reidentifying themselves as unwanted aliens - in a very direct way they are being alienated.

Can it really just be chance that is producing a situation in which every move made by the people in power is guaranteed to further the presumed Bin Laden game plan?

Subject: Lyr Req: A great Muslim round-up
From: wilco
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 05:12 PM

I know a lot of US "cowboy songs," but I can't find this one anywhere. I did not know that there was ever an exclusively Muslim round-up of cattle in US bovine history. I know it's not Gene Autry or Sons of the Pioneers. Any help, Catters?

---

I moved this message here from another thread on the same topic. there was no need to start a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 11:46 AM

Mcgrath I am certainly no great supporter of any religion though I respect them as long as they do not infringe on those of us who practise the art of rational decision making as opposed to decisin making via the tombola of whichever branch of ancient theology one may subscribe to...as for the USA being the latgest Christian nation that surely a is very debatable subject..Yes I know the middle east which may have first spawned Islam has historicaly played a large part in its contribution to modern science.. But I asked someone - anyone to name a single Islamic country that has a problem with people entering its borders as a safe place to live and express themselves freely..You seem to be supporting my contention when you state "There've been times in history when the islamic parts of the world were the civilised and cuitured and tolerant ones, compared with their pretty rough barbaric and intolerant Christian neighbours. Most especially if you were Jewish. There were certainly plenty of Jewish refugees from Spain to the Islam at one time, fleeing persecution by Christians."...You seem to be refering back the pe-enlightenment age..I am discussing today...Where..please where is it possible to go and claim asylum in the Islamic world and be allowed to live with the sort of freedoms we take for granted in the western world ???

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: annamill
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 01:12 PM

I don't mean to sidetrack the sidetrack, but what can we do about this LA problem (remember)? Who can I write? e-mail? call?

I am also wondering if a thread like this could get Mudcat knocked off the web? There are things I would like to say, like about our "president" and his cohorts, but I am afraid to.

How bad are we going to get before we start screaming? This is as bad as the Japanese Interment and the Joe McCarthy thing together.

I'm scared. Again. When is election time?? Is it next Nov.?
Everyone in the US, be sure your registered by then.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 01:55 PM

Well, I've lived in two centuries, but that's enough for me to appreciate that these are only a small transient part of history. When you make a generalisation about a religion you are talking about things that work on a much larger scale.

The shape of the world today, the distribution of power and wealth, the way we live in our various corners of the world - all these are rooted in what has happened in the past. For various reasons a few countries in a few parts of the world developed some significant technological advantages which meant that for a few generations they exercised unfettered domination over the rest of the world, for good and ill. And in real terms that continues today, as a glance at the front pages of today's papers confirms.

It so happened that these countries were one way or another predominantly Christian of one sort or another, but the connection between these two things is pretty tenuous.

It's perfectly possible to imagine an alternative history in which, for example, the technological breakthroughs and the imperial expansion had happened based on the Islamic World. In which case maybe GUEST, Christians Yuk!!! would have been sounding off about how there weren't any Christian countries where people wanted to emigrate, and about how this indicated some characteristic of Christianity that made it fundamentally backward-looking, or whatever.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Mugwump
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 11:19 AM

What's this got to do with music?

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 11:23 AM

hey atlas....it has everything to do with music....

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: Mugwump
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 11:28 AM

please explain?

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:12 PM

It seems the question I posed shall remain unanswered while we digress into discussions of the world before jove.....Great science has occured in all sorts of places in the world through history,but sadly stopped in the Islamic world qiute a few centuries ago...Today is where we are at,and as al of us (to give it the biblical description) have something in the order of only 3 score and ten to live. sadly reciting the parables of the ages wont stop our beloved world being ripped to shreds by crazed religious zealots in the name of a so called God the spawning of minds from a darker age...

Chas regards what this has to with music...perhaps you should refer back to Roman history and Nero who fiddled while Rome burned...

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:38 PM

Hey Beethoven, what's this "Ode to Joy" stuff got to do with music?

As for Yukman - Hitler was a Catholic altar server, Stalin was an Orhodox student priest, both grew up to be convinced Atheists; Nixon was some kind of a Quaker, Kissinger is a Jew. Maybe "GUEST, Humans yuk!!!" would be a more appropriate handle.

Subject: RE: The great Muslim round up
From: GUEST,Muslims yuk !!!!!
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:25 PM

Essex boy McGrath....You are still stuck for an answer to my original question I see...What Hitler Stalin Kissinger and uncle Tom cobbley have to do with this discussion may be a question you will choose to supply an answer to...