BS: what IS that star rising in the east???

Subject: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:56 AM

I live just north of Toronto On Canada. For the last 3 mornings I've been up just before dawn, and I've seen this incredible large bright star just above the Eastern horizon. It's about 10X larger and brighter than any other star in the sky - really quite beautiful! I've been wondering whether I should don my great Canadian snow-suit, stuff my pockets with gold, frankinscense and myrrh and follow it!

Seriously though, has anyone else seen it? Does anyone know what it is?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Bagpuss
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:59 AM

Its probably a planet - maybe Jupiter - that always looks really large

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:01 AM

Believe it or not it is Saturn

Closer to Earth than it will be for the next 200 years.

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Peg
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:21 AM

um, I think it is most likely Jupiter. Saturn is visible now, too but nowhere near as bright as Jupiter and Jupiter is visible during the day in some places..however when I last saw Saturn it was VERY late at night so maybe this dawn planet is Saturn!!! very exciting. I saw its rings thru a telescope a couple months ago...

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:22 AM

Ahhh, thank you, GUEST! That saves me freezin my butt doing the "Star Trek" thing!

Maybe I'll dream up a 'Saturnalia' celebration in fine Roman tradition instead!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: TIA
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:54 AM

It is almost certainly Saturn. Not only is it closer than any of us or our children will ever see again, it is tilted so that its rings are perpendicular to our line of sight -- making it appear huge to the naked eye. The individual rings are even visible with a respectable pair of binoculars, so please do get out there and freeze your Canadian butts off lookin'.

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: diesel
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:58 AM

Wrap up well so as not to come down with a case of 'Saturn-night fever' I hope

Vunus looks rather close at times - once fooled me into believing it was a vehicle out on the horizon....

rgds

Diesel

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 11:59 AM

Saturn is currently at its closest to the Earth in over thirty years. The original Lord of the Rings.

A

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:00 PM

my bet is on Venus, the morning star.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:01 PM

Wow! I saw it myself here in NJ. I woke up, or rather my cats woke me, early yesterday and I glanced out the window and noticed this large star-like object - I never saw one so large before.   I will grab my binoculars and check tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: JenEllen
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:13 PM

When you're out there freezing your buns off tomorrow morning, maybe you could figure out 'where' in the sky it is? 'The horizon' is a pretty big area, at least out here! *g*. What are the neighboring constellations?

Thankfully, with my work, I get outside in the pre-dawn a lot. Saturn's visit has been lovely, and more than likely what you are seeing. If it's not, well, then hunt it out, seeing as you've already got the snowsuit on and all!

Best of luck, and take a mug of something warm with you!]

~JE

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:23 PM

From the write up here Saturn is in the evening sky. So I have to agree with Wolfgang, it must be Venus. I'm North of Toronto too, so if I ever wake up at dawn, I will look.
JohnB

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: KateG
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:41 PM

I don't know if I can do a blue clicky, but the website "Stig's Sky Calendar" will show you everything you want to know about what's in the heavens at any given time for your location (default is Stavanger, Norway but it can be set for a bunch of major cities or you can enter your on long. & lat. The url is http://www.skycalendar.com/skycal/index.html

According to Stig, the bright star in the southeast at dawn is Venus, magnitude -4.6,while Mars is very close to it at mag. 1.6 -- nowhere near as bright. Saturn rises in the east at around 10:00 at night (New Jersey time), and is magnitude -0.4. So the mind-bender is definately Venus -- and its beautiful, still visible even as the sky is brightening at 6:45 am when I take the dog out. But if the rings are visible with binoculars, I'll have to take them the next time the dog gos out for her evening walkies (weather permitting).

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: GUEST,Walking Eagle
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:45 PM

Yes, It is beautiful Venus. Venus is often mistaken for a star as it is the most visible object in that quadrant at this time of year. I often sit out and observe Venus as part of a day welcoming ritual that we Cherokees do. Have fun watching her!

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:15 PM

Now I'm really intrigued! I'll be out there tomorrow morning (with borrowed binoculars and a hot tea and some sage/sweetgrass) and find out whether it's the Lord of the Rings or lovely Lady Venus!

I'll check the other constellations too. Thanks for the links - they'll help me recognize them. The best I can pinpoint it now is that it's almost DIRECTLY over the exact point where the sun is seen to rise in my locale. Sorry - it WAS pretty early in the morning!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: tar_heel
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:21 PM

it's the planet venus...venus lies between earth and the sun and it's now the morning star,or planet...when viewed through a telescope it will look like a new moon ...you will see only cresent instead of the entire planet...as it continues its rotatation around the sun,it will become the evvening star by summer again...you will never see venus or mercury late at night in the eastern skies due to the fact that they both lie between the earth and the sun in their orbits...to learn more,go to.... skypub.com (the sky and telescope magazine website)

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Dead Horse
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:50 PM

So it's not an entire solar system being swallowed up in a gigantic ball of nuclear fire, just to act as a compass for three old codgers looking for Bethlehem, then? (us atheists see things different)

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 02:39 PM

Oooooooo ... the Grim Reaper speaks!!! Great stuff for 'Saturnalia"!!

:-) daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: X
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 08:18 PM

Okay guys, If it's kinda of redish it's Mars. Go out and look at it, you will be seeing somthing that you will not be able to see for another 50,000 years. The last time anyone saw Mars this close to Earth they were living in the Neander Valley caves in France.

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 09:56 PM

Let's see ... so far that's 1 vote for Mars, 2 votes for Jupiter, 5 each Venus and the Lord of the Rings. (Oh yes, and one for, um, celestial terrorism. Makes one lean toward Mars a bit).

But now that my Canadian buns are no longer freezing the sky is overcast, there'll be no spectacular pre-dawn display for me tomorrow!! AARRGGHHH..

Hope some of you stargazers have better luck!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: X
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:20 PM

Venus rises and than later Mars rises. Venus will be an ice blue-white and Mars a redish-orange.

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:47 PM

With good binoculars and a clear night, you ought to be able to see Saturn's rings. I've seen 'em but not in many years.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 10:47 PM

The object I saw is more ice blue-white, and by FAR the largest object in the eastern sky (except the moon of course). It's 'core' is much brighter than the outer edges, reminding me of Saturn and it's rings as described in the links above ...

And strangely enough, the first time I saw it my cat had woken me up too, just like Ron from NJ above!! Hmmmmmm

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: open mike
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:38 AM

saturn will be near the moon , i believe...
see this link:NASA space news

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 03:15 AM

1 more vote for Venus, the Morning Star.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 04:26 AM

I dont care what star you are following get those camels out of my garden.

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:46 AM

Here camel...(tug tug)...c'mon camel...(yank yank)...atta boy camel...(heave heave)...PUT THOSE FLOWERS BACK camel...gimme that,camel...(THUMP THUMP) *!OUCH!*

Now I've gotta hump tooo ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:34 AM

I love it! Astronomy by consensus.... "We have decided, by a vote of 27 to 12, that..."...(don't let the US Supreme court hear about this, or we might have the Little Dipper promoted to BIG Dipper...at least in Florida)

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:08 PM

Great link, open mike! Thanks ... and the object I saw WAS close to the (almost-full) moon the morning of Dec 17 ... Breathtaking indeed!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: tar_heel
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 04:37 PM

i heard one of the camels say to another camel...."i dont care what they say,i'm thirsty!"

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: tar_heel
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 04:39 PM

oh yea...it is VENUS!!!

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 10:32 PM

Alas, and my view is obstructed by clouds again tonight ... even the camels are getting distraught :-(

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 09:36 AM

Has anybody travelled to Bethlehem lately ???

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 09:51 AM

Only in my dreams.

And I wake up starry-eyed and shell-shocked.

Kind of a strange combination ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 10:30 AM

Interestingly enough, George Custer was called "Son of the Morning Star" by some Indians, since he had the habit of falling upon sleeping villages and massacring them just around the crack of dawn, or just before it, killing every man, woman, child, and horse he could find. Lovely fellow, he was...he believed that the early bird gets the worm. At Little Big Horn the worm got him.

I've been getting up very early for the last few weeks, so I will hope for a clear morning and see if I can get out soon to see Venus (I assume it is Venus). Early morning is a most beautiful time.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Dead Horse
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:41 PM

If anyone is considering travel to Bethlehem, they had better book ahead as it is pretty busy this time of year, and most hotels & guesthouses will be full. You could try the *Better Inns Guide* but I don't have the URL on that one. A Google search for B I G should bring up some results, not all of them pornographic.

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:01 PM

Venus.

Click HERE and scroll down to the fourth paragraph in the main text, which begins "And now if you look east every morning for the next few weeks about an hour before sunrise. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:47 PM

Interesting how the description of that breathtaking star brings up images of death and destruction for some!

Little Hawk, do you suppose Custer's rivals were 'Sons of the Morning Star' themselves? I don't think pre-dawn surprise attacks were practiced only by the newcomers to this continent! And to name the perpetrator of these acts of war after such a beautiful natural object seems to imply a certain amount of honouring/respect ...

And thank you Don for the informative link! It could very well be 'Venus at her most brilliant' - I need a CLEAR SKY and a good set of binoculars (to see those rings if it IS Saturn) to be sure.

Either way, it was truly the largest,most beautiful and brilliant 'star' I've ever seen, so I count myself blessed!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:10 PM

In all the links above, though, Saturn is described as an EVENING 'star', rising in the east and directly overhead by around midnight. I haven't yet found information about where it is at dawn ... I'll keep trying.

The fact that Saturn is currently the closest it's been to the Earth in 30 years, and that it is tilted so that it's rings are visible to our line of sight ( which would explain the luminous 'aura' effect around the bright 'core' of the object) still keeps it neck and neck with Venus in my 'guessimation'!

Then again, the Lord of the Rings and Lady Love have probably been neck and neck for a very long time hee hee!!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: GUEST,Donuel
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:31 PM

This January there will be a comet visible without binoculars.
It has a name and number already but I think we should name it.

1...Comet Ptui-Cheney

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 06:27 PM

day-liah - I agree entirely. The Indians both admired Custer (for his courage and style) and detested him (because he broke his word to them on several occasions). I believe Custer also admired the Indians, and rather regretted seeing the passing of the free tribes before the advance of "civilization" ( a much-abused word)...BUT...he was in the remorseless grip of a CAREER, and that career demanded victories. Spectacular ones. He figured that Little Big Horn might be his last chance to grab the brass ring and vault to the presidency. Killing large numbers of Native Americans had worked well in propelling others (like Andrew Jackson) into the highest office, so why not George Custer?

It is too bad when competitive systems drive people into these kind of warped perspectives...and the loss of personal honour that goes with them. Custer broke agreements with the Indians precisely because there was a government behind him that had no intention of honoring any of those agreements any longer than it took to secure an unbeatable military advantage in the next region it wanted to conquer.

You are quite correct that the Indians themselves were past masters of the stealthy and ruthless attack. Prior to the arrival of the whites, though, these raids were mostly done to steal some horses and gain some personal prestige, rather than to completely wipe out another nation and take ALL their land. The body count was usually not very high. After the whites came, things got a whole lot worse in most respects, because white civilization fought Total War for economic gain...not stopping until the last dollar was made, and the last shred of every valuable natural thing taken.

This is why there were millions of buffalo roaming the plains before the whites came, and virtually none shortly after. The Indians did not make a profitable business out of killing things (until they were enlisted by the whites to do so).

You are right that "Son of the Morning Star" was a name given to Custer by some Indians to honor him. The Lakota called him "Yellow Hair". Another people called him "Creeping Panther Who Strikes At Dawn". Each named him according to their own perception of him.

He was courageous, reckless, and apparently rather fatalistic. He would have made a superb Indian warrior, I'm sure, and he was an interesting fellow. The movies have delighted in depicting him as a psychotic, but I think this is just a case of American culture having to explain away why one of their guys could screw up that badly and get his unit wiped out. America is embarrassed by Custer, so they have to paint him as a bit of a lunatic. I think he was probably far more normal than he is generally shown to be by Hollywood...just very reckless and ambitious, that's all. It worked for him very well until that fatal day on the Greasy Grass (Little Big Horn).

We thank him for giving us a day of glory to remember before all was swept remorselessly away...as if by the very hosts of Mordor.

That's the way I see it. Money is the One Ring that rules in Mordor. Every natural thing perishes when money rules the human mind. There is no honor in Mordor, and precious little hope. Mordor's slogans are those such as "My Country Right Or Wrong", "Give Me Convenience Or Give Me Death", and "He Who Dies With The Most Toys Wins". Sad. Poor powerless little Gollums, all hugging their "precious" to their impoverished bosoms, and gazing into the emptiness of their jabbering TV's...

Something better will soon come or this Earth will be swept clean.

Pray for a blessing from the bright shining stars, and look to the East.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: GUEST,mcclureboyroy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 07:21 PM

According to the Old Farmer's Almanac,
Its Venus, if you missed the conjunction of Venus with the crescent moon and Mars on the 1st of Dec you really missed a dazzling display.Venus is the bright star in the morning along with Mars, Saturn is out all night, with Jupiter rising in the PM on the 23rd.

,

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 07:45 PM

LH thanks for your story - most interesting. Will human civilizations EVER move beyond avarice and war-lust? Until each and every one of us freely decides to do so, not too likely ...

Thanks for the info, GUESTmc! Does the Farmer's Almanac say where Saturn can be seen at dawn? I can't find that info anywhere!

Thanks - daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: GUEST,mclureboyroy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM

All the Almanac says is, that Saturn is out all night and reaches an extraordianary opposition on the 17th, high up and at it's brightest since 1973, opposition meaning, on the opposite side of the sky from the Sun,
Also under the heading of , The Visible Planets of 2003, Saturn enjoys it's best year in the half-century span 1974-2030. High overhead in Taurus with it's rings wide open
So if you can find the constellation of Taurus and you should be able to find Saturn.
Hope this helps

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 09:41 PM

{{{ :-) }}} The Light dawns!!

Duhhhhhh

Thankyou, GUESTmclureboyroy! It IS definitely Venus, the Morning Star.

It seems appropriate to add these lyrics from a Christmas Carol called "Come, come, come to the manger" that McGrath of Harlow posted on another thread today ...

                   "Stars of Morning, o'er Bethlehem sing ...
                  
                     See, He weeps, the world is weary
                     Lord, have pity and mercy on me".

I wonder which 'Stars of Morning' are singing o'er Bethlehem today...

Peace and love

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: what IS that star rising in the east???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 08:35 AM

Even at their brightest Mars ans Saturn do not come close to Venus at its brightest. Next brightest object after the moon.
If you know where it is you can see it in full daylight.
I once participated in taking daytime photos of it at a local observatory.