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From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs

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The Shambles 22 Dec 02 - 06:53 AM
pavane 22 Dec 02 - 07:02 AM
Crane Driver 22 Dec 02 - 06:31 PM
Crane Driver 22 Dec 02 - 06:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Dec 02 - 06:37 PM
The Shambles 22 Dec 02 - 06:55 PM
The Shambles 23 Dec 02 - 02:53 AM
Mr Happy 23 Dec 02 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,Peter from Essex 23 Dec 02 - 09:57 AM
pavane 23 Dec 02 - 10:15 AM
The Shambles 23 Dec 02 - 01:12 PM
The Shambles 27 Dec 02 - 03:37 PM
fiddler 27 Dec 02 - 08:27 PM
The Shambles 30 Dec 02 - 05:28 AM
pavane 30 Dec 02 - 02:55 PM
mandomad 31 Dec 02 - 03:28 PM
fat B****rd 31 Dec 02 - 03:42 PM
Barry Finn 31 Dec 02 - 04:22 PM
Guy Wolff 31 Dec 02 - 04:24 PM
banjomad (inactive) 31 Dec 02 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Julie B 01 Jan 03 - 12:48 PM
The Shambles 08 Jan 03 - 02:27 PM
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ET 04 Apr 03 - 08:46 AM
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Bagpuss 04 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM
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Subject: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:53 AM

And from Hamish Birchall (but I could not fit his name in the title). This is the original letter.

Letter in the Guardian 17 December 2002

"I see the proposed new entertainment laws (Letters December 14) could mean the end of live public performances of morris dancing and folk music. Oh dear."

Chris McColl
Bournemouth, Dorset"


LICENSED TO KILL MUSIC

Saturday December 21, 2002
The Guardian


A lot of people enjoy both visiting folk clubs and watching Morris dancing and they would rather the government didn't punish them for doing so (Letters, December 17). However unfashionable Chris McColl might deem said activities and how far above them he might consider himself and his fabulous taste to be, the proposed music licensing bill is nothing but a pathetic attempt to squeeze money out of local landlords, church activities and amateur musicians.

It will kill what is left of our struggling traditions and regulate and charge for every last thing we do when we step outside of our houses.

It will discourage all small live music events and sink independent businesses.

It will remove public stages for young and upcoming artists of all music genres and encourage the opening of corporate "meat market" TV pubs.

It will stifle community events and charge a good deal of them out of existence; it will ensure that churches will sit empty for most of the year.

With the little energy it took Mr McColl to write his cheap joke, he could have discovered just how dangerous and insensitive the proposed legislation is, and what a devastating effect it could have on our modern culture, as well as our ancient.
Eliza Carthy
Heriot, Borders


· England is the only country I can think of that has virtually no respect for its own national culture. Here in Ireland, traditional music and dance in pubs is common and people are fiercely proud of their traditions. In the US, the Smithsonian has a massive archive of traditional music and pretty much every country in Europe has a government-sponsored centre keeping alive its traditional music.

Close to a million listeners tune in to my Radio 2 programme each Wednesday, 60,000 people go to the Sidmouth festival and hundreds of thousands go to Cambridge and the many other folk festivals about the country.

If this bill goes through, then music-making in our pubs will pretty much disappear, except for the juke box and kareoke machine: folk, Christmas carols, mummers plays, Morris dancing - all of them will become subject to control and licensing.

Kim Howells, the minister concerned, promised me on my programme that people making music in traditional sessions and folk clubs would not be penalised. It now looks as though I was hoodwinked. Why is this government so concerned with controlling every aspect of our lives? Why is a Labour government trying to kill the music of the people?

If this bill had been current 30 years ago, David Bowie, Elvis Costello, Rod Stewart, Mark Knopfler, Donovan, Ewan McColl, Bob Dylan, Gerry Rafferty, Billy Connolly, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell and the writers Willy Russell and Brian Jacques might all have had different careers, since all of them at some time served their dues in England's folk clubs.

This bill is an infringement of our rights as human beings to make music for the sheer joy of it - the very thing that fuelled so much of the early left in this country - and New Labour should hang its head in shame.
Mike Harding
Connemara, Ireland

mikeh@dent.demon.co.uk

· Last week Andrew McIntosh, a government whip in the Lords, confirmed that carol singing in public places will remain a criminal offence unless licensed: maximum penalty, a £20,000 fine and six months in prison. It is already a criminal offence to encourage community-style singing in over 100,000 licensed premises in England and Wales. But the bill requires the licensing of any public performance of live music and defines "premises" as "any place" (clause 188). That means your front room, garden, any street, park, field etc.

The Musicians' Union is campaigning vigorously to prevent the government making this country the laughing stock of Europe.

See also the online petition, [with over 10,000 signatures in its first week], www.musiclovers.ukart.com
Hamish Birchall
Consultant on licensing to the Musician's Union


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: pavane
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 07:02 AM

Good to see more support from (I hope) influential people.

To Mike Harding's list could probably be added HUNDREDS of other names

Just a few more spring to mind

Peter Sarstead
T Rex
Steeleye Span (or members thereof)
Sandy Denny
Barbara Dickson (Although Scotland isn't affected)
And I remember seeing Diz Disley a few times.
Fairport Convention?


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Crane Driver
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:31 PM

And if you've not already done so ---


SIGN THE PETITION


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Crane Driver
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:33 PM

...Please


Andrew


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:37 PM

And fax your MP. And if he or she doesn't get back to you, do it again. And again. They're supposed to be working for us. We pay their excessive wages.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:55 PM

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/alms.htm

The above link is to a list of MPs and their E mails, on the Commons Site.

We rather badly need some more MPs (particular New Labour MPs), to start to take note of a petition signed by over 11,000 electors in the petition's first week, and to sign Commons Early Day Motion 331. of the 53 names, only 4 are labour MPs.

http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=331


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 02:53 AM

The Licensing Bill will be discussed on BBC Radio 4, You and Yours, on Monday 23 December, between 12.30 and 12.55pm.

Sheila Miller, who runs 'The Cellar Upstairs' folk club in London, will be talking about the live music implications. Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, will talk about the implications for smaller breweries.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 03:02 AM

the petition is at www.musiclovers.ukart.com


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 09:57 AM

www.musiclovers.ukart.com


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: pavane
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:15 AM

Oh I missed it. Mudcat was down, so I never saw the post.
(PS Yes I have signed, and faxed. Peter Hain keeps sending my faxes on to Kim Howells though)


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 01:12 PM

This from Hamish Birchall. Please forward

The online petition opposing the live music provisions of the Licensing Bill has just passed the 12,000 signature mark:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?2inabar

While licensing Minister Kim Howells has announced a government 'rethink' on the licensing of all secular music in churches, there is no sign of movement over the 'none in a bar' position for everywhere else.

The government is trying to spin their way out of public opposition by claiming the new live music licence will be cheap and easy to obtain. It is in fact highly unlikely that licences will be either easy or cheap to get.

The Local Government Association has recently circulated a discussion paper which envisages licence applications for live music detailing the style of music, the maximum number of musicians, where in the premises they are to play, and when. Such a prescriptive approach might be appropriate for premises where live music is the main business, but it is unworkable for informal folk sessions, or jazz jam sessions in pubs or bars.

Stuart Neame, of Shepherd Neame brewery, claims that if pubs opt for live music under the new regime many could face local authority licence conditions costing up to £10,000. Certainly I have heard that even small acoustic folk pubs are being required to provide door supervisors (to count people in and out) and to install double glazing.

Remember that the Bill exempts broadcast or jukebox music, however powerfully amplified. The government has looked carefully at safety and noise legislation and concluded that it is adequate to deal with noisy crowds jumping up and down in pubs.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 03:37 PM

The following in The Times

Letters to the Editor

December 26, 2002

Opposition to the new Licensing Bill
From the Deputy Chairman of the Independent Family Brewers of Britain


Sir, Councillor Simon Milton of Westminster council (letter, December 20) doesn't like the new Licensing Bill. Nor do musicians, nor does the Church, nor even will young voters, when they find the Department for Culture, Media and Sport's promises of all-day opening were never more than spin.

Nor do licensees like the Bill. Most publicans just wanted to open an hour later at weekends, which needed one page of deregulation, not 169 pages of extra regulation.

Landlords want licensing to stay with the courts, who are quick, fair and cost-effective. A remarkable 94 per cent of licensees oppose the Bill's nightmare proposal to subject our pubs to the bureaucracy and politics of local councils.

Who does support this Bill? Why, our MPs, who want more local democracy. They hate dealing with complaints from pub neighbours, and can't wait to wash their hands of them by passing responsibility to local councillors. But it won't make for better licensing, pubs, or public order.

Yours etc,
STUART NEAME,
Shepherd Neame Ltd,
17 Court Street,
Faversham, Kent ME13 7AX.
sneame@shepherd-neame.co.uk


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: fiddler
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 08:27 PM

Just Emailed John Redwood - seemed like a good idea - Just to keep him on the boil. As a Tory I am sure he will find a large number of faults on principle and at least assist in getting some further consideration to the act. I am sure it will get passed in the end however sad it may be it is what we can acheive on the way.

Simon Mayor also got a piece in on of the national dailies recently too!

A


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 05:28 AM

Opinion in the Daily Telegraph 30 December 2002

By next Christmas, carol singers will be criminals
By Billy Bragg
(Filed: 30/12/2002)



A sense of wonder and excitement fills the air as the earnest participants shuffle into view, their movements constricted by their elaborate animalistic face masks. Here, among the tombs of the ancestors, beneath the honoured names of ancient warriors, they solemnly assemble before the elders.

The whole community has gathered in this place of spirits for the annual telling of their most sacred story. The village headman steps forwards to address the enthralled audience.

"Welcome to St Mary's Church and this year's Nativity play," says Mr Powell, headmaster of our local school. "As some of you parents will know, we alternate between a pantomime in the school hall next door and a Nativity here in the church. Last year, we had a panto with the older children, so this year we have the Year Ones and Twos giving us their Nativity play."

The headmaster picks up his guitar and the children begin to sing Away in a Manger, each child dressed as one of the barnyard animals that attended Christ's birth. Every parent present gets a lump in the throat.

Here in west Dorset, the festive season is the busiest time for community traditions. The village players have rehearsed their pantomime, the choir its carol concerts and the mummers have dusted down their costumes and recalled their lines. Dorset has a strong mumming tradition and the village of Symondsbury near Bridport is felt by many to be the best example that has survived. I recently travelled up the valley to Litton Cheney to witness a performance.

Thorner's School was founded in 1690 and, as schoolchildren and parents huddled in on a dark winter's afternoon, it seemed a fitting place to see the Symondsbury Mumming Play. In common with all mumming plays, it features St George, who fights and slays his enemies, only to ask the Doctor to bring them back to life.

More characters appear, are killed and revived, and the play concludes with the singing of the Travels. A holly bough is brought in and the lady of the house - in this case, the Thorner's headmistress - is asked to tie a ribbon to it. The whole thing lasts about 45 minutes and is conducted in a knockabout style, with many asides to the audience.

The true meaning of the play is lost, even to those who perform it. The death and resurrection theme may allude to midwinter solstice celebrations, in which the sun is symbolically "reborn" as days begin to get longer. Whatever its original function, the Mummers Play nowadays serves to remind us of the pagan elements that linger just beneath the shiny surface of the modern Christmas.

The understanding of the play is much less important than the performing of it. Like all community traditions, mumming relies on continuity in order to survive and flourish. These yearly keeps may seem risible to some, but they are a means of bringing people together in an increasingly disjointed society.

The mummers, the Nativity play, the panto, the carol concert all provide opportunities for newcomers to meet their fellow villagers and appreciate the age-old values of the local community.

Yet all these activities are under threat from the licensing Bill that is currently passing through Parliament. While dealing chiefly with the sale of alcohol, the Bill seeks to amend the regulations regarding the provision of entertainment. Almost all public music-making, singing, dancing and acting becomes a criminal offence unless first licensed by the local authority. Even private performance is caught, if it is to raise money for charity, or the performers are paid, or a charge is made for admission.

The maximum penalty for hosting an unlicensed performance is a £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The catch-all wording of the Bill seeks to criminalise all manner of hitherto legitimate activities. It defines "premises" as "any place". Thus, public demonstrations of musical instruments in a shop require a licence, as would a rendition of Happy Birthday in a restaurant. Making merry will be licensable not just in pubs and clubs, but also in private homes and gardens, in churches, schools and community halls.

If enacted without amendment, the Bill would have a devastating effect on our community traditions here in west Dorset. Churches are exempt only if the music is incidental to a religious service. For the purposes of the Act, our school Nativity was a play and therefore requires a licence.

If any members of the school band wish to form a group, their rehearsal space will have to be licensed, too. The WI will be faced with a huge increase in costs if it hopes to stage the village pantomime next year. The carollers will be confined to licensed premises. Even carol singing in shopping centres or railway stations would be illegal without a licence.

The mummers are also under threat from the scope of this legislation. Their brief season traditionally ends on New Year's Day with a performance at the Ilchester Arms in their home village of Symondsbury. Soon the landlord could be risking imprisonment unless he can afford a licence for such entertainment.

Most galling of all is the fact that this law will not apply in Scotland, despite the fact that other noise and safety legislation is UK-wide. Provided music is secondary to the main business, it is not licensable north of the Border. Scottish musicians will remain free to gather together in bars and clubs and hold impromptu "sessions". Although the Welsh will be subject to the Act, they have their own national assembly to protect their community traditions.

Here in England, however, we have no one to speak up for the Symondsbury Mummers and the countless other amateur players whose annual observances have ensured the continuity of our English traditions. For all of their dedication and commitment, they may soon find themselves squeezed out of existence by over-zealous bureaucracy. It seems that St George, for so long the victorious hero of the Mumming Play, is about to be defeated.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: pavane
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 02:55 PM

I can't see that the Welsh Assembly are doing anything? My own MP from Neath just keeps sending my faxes to Kim Howells.
Wait until they find the Urdd Eisteddfod heats are illegal.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: mandomad
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 03:28 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: fat B****rd
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 03:42 PM

I've never bothered with this thread before but now I have and I've realised the ramifications of such a law are too crap to think about. I've happily signed the petition and may E-mail my MP. He's the one for Sedgefield, BTW. I'm not particularly interested in Folk pursuits but I'll defend to the hilt anybody else's right to indulge them freely and joyfully. So There !!


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:22 PM

Could you hold large country wide outdoor festivals/sessions (informal) without anyone's name as an orginizer, as a civil disobedience demonstration? Just a thought. Maybe all the musicians can move north where they could play their hearts out. Just another thought. Can't believe England is again crushing it's own culture once again. It must be that the government feels the need (or needs the practice) & they've run out of other cultures to crush or run out of those that will allow it to happen. I'm so sorry for your turn of events. I wonder what the singers/musicians that live just to do the music the love will do? Barry


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:24 PM

Just signed thanks for the link.. Can an "American Tourist" count?. I did bring up the subject with the preident on tourisum at the british counsolate in NEW York . He called it a NICH essue.. i told him it was inportant for Americans to see these traditions that we (Americans ) come from and strongly bring us all home to Briton!!! All the best from New England.. Guy


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 06:39 PM

All English Catters must support this pettion, it is vital to keep our folk music heritage.
Dave


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: GUEST,Julie B
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:48 PM

Excuse the thread creep but out local WI (Womens Institute) in Newton Longville, Bucks, is about to close in January after 67 years. One of the main reasons for the closure is that few members feel adequatly able to take responsibility for running it, meaning a committee cannot be formed.

Nowadays small clubs already find themselves subject to much of the same mountain of legislation as large profit-making businesses. The sheer amount of time, effort and expense that members have to devote to administration to keep their club/society afloat within the law has begun to outweigh the pleasure that club activities bring. Yes, of course you can bakes some cakes and have a sing-song - but you'd better be absolutely sure that you have complied with the thousands of pages of current health and safety legislation, and have applied for, paid for and been granted the appropriate licences for such activities. Get it wrong and it's committee members that are ultimately personally liable to large fines/imprisonments for infringments....

Meanwhile, last night I walked into the local BP petrol station to discover they're the latest shop to install a sound system powerful enough deafen staff and customers alike. The usual dreary 'thump-thump' bass-beat music of course. But of course they don't need to apply for any licence to play this. Neither would the Government dare to curb the decibles at which this recorded music can be played in public places such as shops and bars. Unless, of course, that music played everywhere happened to be English Folk music...then the, no doubt, our MPs would swiftly find ways to force the volumes down!! :-)


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 02:27 PM

Wednesday January 8, 2003
The Guardian


It is the culture secretary, Tessa Jowell (Letters, January 6), who is
wrong. The licensing bill does not contain a balanced package of
deregulation but an unbalanced one designed to favour the late night alcohol and entertainment industry at the expense of local communities.

It will exacerbate rather than reduce the drunken mayhem that afflicts our town and city centres at night and inflict even greater problems of noise and other forms of nuisance on local residents, while reducing the power of local authorities to protect residents from these problems.

There is no good evidence that abolishing fixed closing times - which most other comparable countries retain - is the panacea that the government claims it to be. The conclusions of the Portman Group (in 1989 not 1999 as the secretary of state states) are hardly surprising, given that the Portman Group represents the very alcohol industry that will benefit from longer hours, nor for this same reason are they convincing to anyone except the gullible.

Had the government sought information from a less self-interested source it would have discovered that experience in this country and elsewhere suggests that greatly extending drinking hours usually creates more problems than it solves.

For example, a New Zealand researcher (not paid for by the alcohol
industry) concluded that increases in hours of sale are consistently related to increases in alcohol-related harm, including traffic injury, street disorder and violence, and that later and longer hours for alcohol sales contribute disproportionately to heavier drinking and drunken behaviour.

These are the reasons why local authorities, such as the one in which the secretary of state herself lives, as well as the Civic Trust and many residents' and amenity groups are campaigning for the bill to be amended.

Andrew McNeill
Institute of Alcohol Studies


Should we consider that the debate was settled by the actions of pub
landlord Robert Tyrell, who reportedly demolished his own pub because he was refused a late-night drink? This suggests we need NHS treatment homes much more than longer pub opening hours.
Joyce Glasser
London


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:40 AM

See the following thread for a bit more (so far unreported) from Mike and Eliza.

Radio 2 Folk Music Awards


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:40 AM

Chris Bates wrote on another list:

Mike Harding's prog on Radio 2 on April 9 will see a showdown between Billy Bragg and Eliza Carthy versus Kim Howells, the government minister responsible for the changes to UK licensing laws.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:05 AM

This from the Commons on April 1st - sadly not an April Fool. Howells has upset just about everyone, now it is the turn of the Irish

Mr Moss:.... The Government are trying to squash the whole edifice under their heavy boot, simply because one or two things may cause problems. We should look at the issue from a completely different angle and try to support the arts and culture, particularly music. What do they do in Ireland I wonder? Why is it so vibrant there? I do not suppose that they have all this legislation over there.

Dr. Howells: I do not think that Ireland is a particularly good comparison. We have a very vibrant cultural industry in this country. We are the second largest exporter of culture in the world. Ireland is a country of 3.5 million people. It does not even begin to compare with this country's great cultural life. The Irish are extraordinarily good at advertising Ireland as a home that is full of fiddlers and dancers. Good luck to them, they are a very inventive people.


The fact that Ireland is full of fiddlers and dancers and so also is England and Wales still seems to have escaped our culture minister's attention.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: vectis
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:02 PM

Have people been writing to Tony Blair. Maybe he isn't really aware of
a) the ramifications of this crappily written piece of legislation
b) the strength of feeling it has engendered
maybe HE IS THE ONE who has the power to tell Kim Howells where to stick his Bill.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 02:34 AM

I have written to him twice and I know others have. They just get ignored. Not even an official acknowledgment.

The way the government has behaved over this bill has profoundly soured my view of the "democratic" process.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 06:15 AM

Maybe 11,000 letters would force him acknowledge our point of view. A copy of every letter to TB sent to a national paper would stop him ignoring them.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Pied Piper
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:41 AM

It's because o't' Magana Charter,
What were signed byt' Barons of old
That we English can do what we want to
As long as we do what were told.

Merriot Edger


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: ET
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:46 AM

I have written to Tony Blair and got an acknowledgement! It said he was too busy to deal with mail and my letter had been passed to DCMS. Exactly what I had requested not to happen. I wrote to Blair because he pretends to play the guitar. Once saw him loading same on a plane (moving vehicle so exempt). I don't think he has been any where near this bill or its contents. I work with someone who once worked in the Commons. She used to be a staunch labour fan till she got there. Now I think she admires the "get stuffed" party the most.

Does anyone agree that maybe Sessions have been saved, in the sense that they are genuinely "incidental" to the main purpose of selling beer. Howells rambles seem to suggest so, but as lawyers point out, its not a Howells test that matters, its the courts and when he says local authorities decided it means they will decide whether or not to prosecute.


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 09:44 AM

The trouble is, it's a definite maybe!

And once we find out if it isn't, it'll be too late.

On Howells view, if the session is advertised, it ceases to be incidental.

Likewise if it's the main purpose anyone goes there.

These are, I belatedly think, big dangers.

I am planning some re-worded exemptions for Report stage or maybe when it goes back to Lords.

A small oiseau tells me that even the civil servants agree (if no-one is listening) that Howells is just plain wrong that leaving "incidental" undefined in any way adds to the discretion local authorities can use. And even if it did, is that not a risk too?


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Bagpuss
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM

And what constitutes advertising? Is it only advertising if the licensee does it (ie in order to increase trade?), or would it be counted as advertised if it were included in a list of sessions in a folk music publication?


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM

And what about putting a notice about it on a listings page on the Internet?

And would sticking a notice up outside the pub count? I suspect it would.

What about a warning to customers? - "If you don't like folk music, stay away from the pub on such and such a date, because those people you don't like will be sitting the bar making what they call music".

They don't think these things through.

The trouble is, it isn't what the law actually says that matters, or even what the local council might think it says. It's what the people who own the pub - typically some big company these days in much of the country - might think it meant, and what their solicitors and accountants, might think was safest. And that is likely to be a policy of "no unofficial music".


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 03:54 PM

Local folk music publications are not normally taken as advertising (at least for the current restrictions on advertising members only clubs). If that wasn't the case then a lot of magazines wouldn't have any listings.

Any mention in a more general publication is regarded as advertising, even if it appears without the knowledge or consent or the organiser. Islington Folk Club (members only) came very close to being closed down a year or so back because a guest sent a press release direct to Time Out.

So if your local paper does pub reviews and your session gets mentioned in the pub's write up then the music will cease to be incidental!


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Apr 03 - 03:42 AM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 02:06 AM

COMING UP ON THE MIKE HARDING SHOW 03/04/03

Subjects for forthcoming Mike Harding Shows on BBC Radio 2, Wednesdays 8 - 9pm are: April 9th Kim Howells; April 16th Requests; April 23rd Sandy Denny/St George.


Despite the back-slapping about how the Bill is improved since its Lords visit, the sad and disgraceful fact remains that if our Labour Government has their way - one (advertised) person singing in a pub that has not applied for permission, will be an offence for the licensee (and/or the organiser). They will subject to a maximum £20,000 fine or 6 months in prison and will have automatically made the premises unsafe.

That any form of concert can take place in any place of religious worship, at any volume, at any time and for any amount of attendees, free from any additional licensing permissions or resulting imposed conditions.

That despite the concerns of senior police officers and the many examples provided of violent incidents arising from TV football events in pubs, these will be free from any additional licensing permissions or resulting imposed conditions.

In the year 2003, that cannot be a Government action of which Howells can have any pride at all.

Musicians are not Dr Howells enemy, why is he so determined to see them as this, and in this determination ensure that they will become his enemies? A more contrite approach from him, and a sign that he was prepared to listen, rather than continue to demonstrate his ignorance of musical matters, even at this late stage, would not go amiss.........


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