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BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!

Peter K (Fionn) 25 Dec 02 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Melodeon 25 Dec 02 - 09:44 AM
The Shambles 25 Dec 02 - 01:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Dec 02 - 02:07 PM
John MacKenzie 25 Dec 02 - 02:19 PM
Malcolm Douglas 25 Dec 02 - 02:22 PM
The Shambles 25 Dec 02 - 02:56 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 26 Dec 02 - 12:40 PM
The Shambles 26 Dec 02 - 02:15 PM
Richard Bridge 26 Dec 02 - 02:53 PM
Geoff the Duck 26 Dec 02 - 03:07 PM
The Shambles 26 Dec 02 - 08:07 PM
The Shambles 27 Dec 02 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Matthew Edwards 27 Dec 02 - 04:24 AM
Geoff the Duck 27 Dec 02 - 08:02 AM
The Shambles 28 Dec 02 - 04:47 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 28 Dec 02 - 02:19 PM
GUEST 28 Dec 02 - 02:27 PM
Noreen 28 Dec 02 - 02:44 PM
The Shambles 28 Dec 02 - 04:32 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Dec 02 - 05:02 PM
The Shambles 29 Dec 02 - 07:30 AM
The Shambles 30 Dec 02 - 04:17 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 30 Dec 02 - 05:32 PM
John Routledge 30 Dec 02 - 06:23 PM
The Shambles 30 Dec 02 - 08:08 PM
John Routledge 30 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM
The Shambles 30 Dec 02 - 08:48 PM
Schantieman 31 Dec 02 - 10:03 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 31 Dec 02 - 04:11 PM
The Shambles 31 Dec 02 - 04:34 PM
The Shambles 01 Jan 03 - 01:24 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Jan 03 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,Matthew Edwards 01 Jan 03 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Matthew Edwards 01 Jan 03 - 02:27 PM
GUEST 01 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM
Mr Happy 01 Jan 03 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Matthew Edwards 01 Jan 03 - 05:02 PM
GUEST 01 Jan 03 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Matthew Edwards 01 Jan 03 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,Matthew Edwards 01 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM
Dave Bryant 02 Jan 03 - 08:05 AM
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Subject: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 08:26 AM

Maybe you already did. "Pub Carols" was broadcast today (Christmas Day morning) on Radio 4, about a singing tradition still alive and kicking in South Yorkshire. But if you missed it, don't miss the repeat on New Year's Eve (11pm).

Here's the blurb from the Beeb's website:

THE PUB CAROLS

It's a remarkable story, how a local village carol singing custom has persisted over two centuries.

In South Yorkshire and Derbyshire and in the little villages around Sheffield for two hundred years now, local carols written by the tradesmen and artisans of the past have been sung in local pubs. The story goes back to the days when the church started to disapprove of all kinds of unofficial hymns and in response to this exclusion the locals took them into the pubs and taverns where the festive atmosphere of Christmas went well with the boisterous songs and the beer. And they have survived to this day.

In the programme, which takes its title from one of the carols, local historian and singer Georgina Boyes talks and listens to today's singers who come every year to join in the sessions. It begins at the end of November in a pub like the Royal Oak at Dungworth where landlord Dave Lambert respects the tradition even though as he points out it doesn't necessarily suit all his customers. Even the local vicar has a regard for the tradition, older rivalry being put aside. The area is one which boasts a strong folk singing tradition and it's no surprise to find the likes of folk greats like the Watersons and the new star Kate Rusby in the programme, brought up as she was singing at Christmas in her dad's local.

A celebration of the disappearing art of singing together for the joy of it.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST,Melodeon
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 09:44 AM

Lets hope the new legislation is defeated in the commons otherwise this sort of thing will be illegal.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 01:39 PM

It is illegal now, if the pubs do not have public entertainment licenses.......... Merry Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 02:07 PM

Except that in court these kind of restrictions probably wouldn't stand up - and if some misguided authority were to try it on in this case, they'd probably actually find tehmeslves with a court case that would be fought up to Strasbourg if need be. So they won't.

The great are only great because we are on our knees.(James Connolly)


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 02:19 PM

Wonderfull programme, if you missed it today, cancel everything you were going to do on New Years Eve, and listen.
Merry Christmas.....Giok


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 02:22 PM

I don't know if all the pubs concerned have licences for music and dancing, but I'm pretty sure that some of them, at least, do. Sheffield council has never felt any need to interfere with the carols, though I suspect that, this year at least, there were people from outside the area hoping that they would. David Blunkett has been a regular attender over the years, incidentally.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 02:56 PM

Sheffield council has never felt any need to interfere with the carols, though I suspect that, this year at least, there were people from outside the area hoping that they would.

If Sheffield council can explain to all the other licensing authorities how they enable events that these other councils claim the law does not allow them to permit without PELs. And that they cannot turn a blind eye to, as this would place the public at risk, we may be well on the way to solving the current problems presented to folk activities.

No one want to prevent this tradition, but they may wish to enable other traditions elsewhere. As this is most probably the last time the pub carols will take place under current legislation and the position under the new legislation does not look too hopeful, it would seem a good time to try and openly establish how this particular local tradition is enabled now. And how it can be enabled under the new legislation.

I do not see that there is anything to lose locally by making this situation public and plenty of advantages by demonstrating the patchy and unsatifactory nature of current legislation and to try and ensure that these arguments do not continue under new law. And that all traditional activities taking place in all pubs can take place free of the threat of local authority enforcement.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 12:40 PM

I started this thread to publicise the forthcoming repeat of a great 30 minutes of radio, but as can sometimes happen, it is at risk of being swamped by the PEL brigade.

Licencing authorities are comprised of elected councillors and their paid officers. If most of the people in a pub want to start singing, and they all choose to sing the same song, plenty of councillors will let that go, especially if they are going to stand for re-election. This is not rocket science.

In the case of the pub carols tradition, it's a fact that some pub customers don't warm to it, as is acknowledged in the radio feature. But some landlords are happy, on balance, to let it thrive, even though it might drive some of their customers to a different pub for the duration. The law doesn't come into it, either now or (I expect)in the future.

Anyway, the radio prog is a delightful 30 minutes, and full marks to the BBC for aiming it at a general audience rather than running it in a folkie slot.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 02:15 PM

Licencing authorities are comprised of elected councillors and their paid officers. If most of the people in a pub want to start singing, and they all choose to sing the same song, plenty of councillors will let that go, especially if they are going to stand for re-election. This is not rocket science.

Officers will tell councillors, and they will meekly accept, that the law does not permit them to turn a blind eye or to 'let it go' a regular (and /or advertised) occurence such as these. And using the definition of the word 'performer' as anyone singing in a pub, this will be entirely correct, in South Yorkshire and Derbyshire as it is everywhere else in England and Wales.

Snip - The law doesn't come into it, either now or (I expect)in the future.

Does this area already have a devolved Government? One that enables them to make their own legislation then?

If this councils in this region can openly and leglly enable these fine events in pubs without PELs, it is rather important that they share the knowledge of how this is done, to all the other councils who claim they cannot enable equally fine events without PELs.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 02:53 PM

Sham you are right.

Fionn - enjoy it now.

The Ant and the Butterfly.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 03:07 PM

Fionn - Many thanks to you for trying to let us know about an interesting radio programme. Unfortunately I read the thread shortly (about 2 hours) after the show had first been broadcast. I will also be otherwise occupied when it gets repeated on New Years Eve, so will miss the repeat.
I looked at Radio 4 on the BBC websites hoping to find an archived internet copy of the show to listen to, but didn't find one. I may have missed a clicky somewhere, so if anybody has spotted it in an archive, please post a URL or use the Mudcat BLICKIFIER to make a clickable link to it.
The Shambles - Although I recognise your concerns that people be informed about the PEL issue, I also appreciate Fionn's concern that her attempt to inform about a radio programme (which can presumably be listened via internet broadcasting by ANYONE on the planet who has access to a computer) that her thread has been diverted from its purpose. Why not freshen MY thread about the South Yorks Carols (BLICKY) and give an explanation of the threat there...
In the Yorkshire Post newspaper, a couple of days before Christmas, there was front page article looking about the proposed legislation before parliament. I pointed out that the proposed laws are not restricted to pubs and licensed premises. Apparently they would make School Plays illegal without paying for a (£1000) license and also walking from door to door carol singing.
Quack!
GtD.
p.s. If anyone does find an archive of the show I WOULD like to hear it!


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 08:07 PM

A direct quote from the very first post - A celebration of the disappearing art of singing together for the joy of it.

I have made the point in a little more depth in the following thread. Perhaps a more sensible conversation on the real threat to this tradition can be conducted there? Where those that are concerned about it can make a contribution to the debate and the rest can pop their heads back in the sand.

Mummers stopped Cerne Abbas


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 04:07 AM

"People singing carols in a supermarket or a railway station and so on would need to be covered by a premises licence or a temporary event notice." [Lord McIntosh, government whip, 1st Committee stage debate of the Licensing Bill, House of Lords, 12 December 2002]


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST,Matthew Edwards
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 04:24 AM

Geoff, like you I missed the Christmas Day broadcast, and it seems likely that I'll miss the repeat on New Year's Eve so I'm going to try to tape it. (I can't find it listed anywhere on the BBC "Listen Again" schedules either.)

If I do manage to tape it successfully, would you like a copy? If so send me an email at "Mrwedwards@(nospam)aol.com".[Remove (nospam)]

Best wishes to you and Jane and the Ducklings for the New Year.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 08:02 AM

Hi Matthew. I might attempt to record it by use of a radio, minidisc and timer plug, but if I don't manage, I may be in touch.
Quack!
Geoff.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:47 AM

It is rather a strange time to repeat the programme, almost as if they don't want anyone to hear it?

But it sounds as though it will be worth the effort. I intend to listen and to tape it. So next year, if you missed it, if you send a PM to me, I will try and post a tape to whoever wishes to hear it.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 02:19 PM

Thanks GtD even though you reduced me to a mere female. Fionn = boy (as in Fionn McCohaill or Fin McCool); Fionnuala = girl.

I also failed to find an archived version or I would have included a link in my first post. Maybe it will be archived after the repeat has gone to air.

Shambles, most of the examples you mention assume an audience. If the customers in a pub all break into song, I'm not sure anyone would call that a performance, because there is no audience, and certainly no money is changing hands. Even if it does fall within the legal definition, no-one is likely to interfere with this South Yorks and Derbyshire tradition (which is spread across at least three licencing authorities), simply because common sense will prevail.

Councillors who meekly accept what their officers tell them are a breed I have yet to encounter, but maybe there are a few.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 02:27 PM

Fionn,

Shambles has a big chip on his shoulder. Whilst much of what he says is accurate, he articulates it in a way that assumes the new laws will kill folk music.

They won't. To quote Martin Carthy: "I have come to understand that folk music can survive anything that anyone tries to do to it. It will be here a lot longer than any one of us"


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 02:44 PM

Fionn: reduced ... to a mere female???
Careful....

(Wouldn't catch me doing any of that mixing gender stuff)


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 04:32 PM

Shambles, most of the examples you mention assume an audience.

Under current legislation this activity will be considered as illegal without a PEL and to make the premises unsafe. If it is not to be so considered in South Yorkshaire and Derbyshire, please urgently let me know exactly how so I can inform the rest of England and Wales?

Under the Bill.

If officers wish to find an audience they will.

If the customers in a pub all break into song, I'm not sure anyone would call that a performance, because there is no audience, and certainly no money is changing hands.

Once would likely be OK. But many councils have already declared this to be a performance, do it next week on commercial premises (pubs)and officers will claim money is (indirectly) changing hands.

Even if it does fall within the legal definition, no-one is likely to interfere with this South Yorks and Derbyshire tradition (which is spread across at least three licencing authorities), simply because common sense will prevail.

Given their record, I would hate to have rely on councils showing any common sense or recognising any traditions. I fail to see how the interpretation of the same law that has prevented traditional events elswhere, will not equally apply in these counties too.

Having tried to use all the perfectly logical auguments you have stated, I do know what the response will be, if the officers wish to find the activity licensable. If they do not wish it to be licensable, I would dearly love to know how.

I hope I am wrong but as no one is using these arguments to ensure the survival of these pub carols events, we will never know. Until it is possibly too late. Just blindly trusting in the commen sense of councils and councillors on matters of licensing, is not one I would recommend. Rather than arguing with me, why not ask these councils?

Sadly I have plenty of evidence for the type of councillor who will just do as they are told by their officers. Perhaps you can supply some for the type you seem to think exists? Councillors have to rely on their officer's legal advice, these people tell them what the law is and they really have to accept it.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 05:02 PM

Sham, you are right.

There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 07:30 AM

A celebration of the disappearing art of singing together for the joy of it.

New Years Eve 11.00pm - 11.30pm BBC Radio 4.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:17 PM

Given the history of this tradition, it seems unlikely if the church could not prevent it, that the Government now will.

But they do appear to be doing a good job of trying to.........


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 05:32 PM

Noreen, did my post really say reduced? And I'm sure I typed elevated! Just as I'm sure I put an "m" in McComhaill. I thought Max was supposed to be sorting these glitches....

Given their record, I would hate to have rely on councils showing any common sense Shambles, you seem reluctant to credit that the South Yorks & Derbys councils are doing just that, and have been doing so for years.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 06:23 PM

It's on 24 hrs from now.

Heard the first broadcast and enjoyed enormously. My radio casette recorder might even have worked - will check.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:08 PM

Shambles, you seem reluctant to credit that the South Yorks & Derbys councils are doing just that, and have been doing so for years

Just trying to turn a blind eye and not trying to prevent other authorities from discrediting them all, is not showing common sense. The law does not permit them to turn a blind eye and to use their own high moral language, the law states that they are placing the public at risk, by doing this. If they were openly challenged even these councils would have to prevent these activities.

If you can present me with evidence of these councils using some means other than just trying to turn a blind eye to these activities in pubs without PELs and show that they are prepared to state this publicly, I will be the very first one to give these councils the credit they would then indeed deserve.

Until then they are making trying to find a sensible outcome to this hypocrisy as difficult as the councils that do strictly enforce the interpretation that customers are 'performers' in a public entertainment.

However strongly I may disagree with them, these latter councils are at least prepared to stand up and be counted. And to take the unpopularity and insults that are thrown at them.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:25 PM

Shambles - your whole argument pre-supposes that all Local Authorities have sufficient funds to comply 100% with every single aspect of every law. The don't and therefore have to make choices.

This is not the same as turning a blind eye as you keep repeating.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:48 PM

Please let these councils make their own excuses, they are better practiced and have so many prepared for every occasion. I have heard most of them and remain to be convinced of any of this hypocrisy.

Foe they will also claim they have a statutory duty to enforce this legislation and that they would face critcism if they did not do so.

If what you say is true, they are placing the public at risk because they do not have the resouces to carry out their stautory duties, which is pretty much the same and just as bad as turning a blind eye. the law of the land MUST be evenly and fairly enforced.

In any case you are agreeing with me that that the current licesing law and its enforcement is not workable.

But why then are they not fighting a Bill that gives them even more responsiblity and will be equally unworkable in practice?


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Schantieman
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 10:03 AM

Thanks for the info about the repeat. I shall see if my 1982 vintage radio-cassette-recorder is still up to it. I heard most of it on Christmas Day (by chance) but will definitely put it on tonight.

(11pm is a standard time for Radio 4 light entertainment programmes, but I suspect the audience tonight might be a tad smaller than elsewhen).

Happy New Year

Steve


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:11 PM

As I've said before, Shambles, in these parts we're quite content to enjoy ourselves in pubs, notwithstanding that it seems to be illegal. Our elected councillors seem quite relaxed about it too. As far as I know, none of us feels the slightest urge to evangelise our simple (but criminal) values to the law-abiding saddoes in other parts of the legislature.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:34 PM

You are quite right of course. Happy New Year!


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:24 PM

Did anyone 'catch it'?


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:12 PM

Well I did, again, and was confirmed in my view - a great feature. And it probably wouldn't have worked in any other medium. As someone said in the programme, the experience is something you could never put in a bottle - the sheer spontoneity of it is its great charm, and ideally you just have to be there. What I had not thought to mention before, partly because I am acustomed to hearing them, is that the northern narrative voices telling the story were as pleasing on the ear as the wondrously convoluted part-singing.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST,Matthew Edwards
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:16 PM


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST,Matthew Edwards
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:27 PM

Sorry about the previous blank message! I hit the wrong button.

Anyway I did manage to record the programme last night while at work (and before I ended up taking a resident from our care home to to the A&E ward in hospital at midnight after she fell out of bed!!)

It is a great broadcast even though, as Alan Rusby noted, the carols are better for singing than for recording.

I do have a tape if anybody wants a copy of this broadcast.

Happy New Year to all

Matthew


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM

That would be Steve Rusby, I think


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:52 PM

Matthew Edwards,

if u fancy a sing 2nite- there's Mr Happy's NY sinaround at Union Vaults, Chester 9pm on.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST,Matthew Edwards
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:02 PM

Guest : Yes it almost certainly was Steve not Alan, Rusby in the broadcast ( brother of the more famous Kate), and I do apologise for the misattribution, which is entirely due to tiredness after a night at the A&E!!

       So I'm sorry that for the same reason I can't get to the Union Vaults in Chester tonight, Mr Happy. I really would love to be there for a good singaround, but my only brain cell which is still functioning is most unreliable at present.

       Best wishes, Matthew


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:05 PM

and he's Kate Rusby's dad, not brother...


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST,Matthew Edwards
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:12 PM

Actually Mr Happy a sinaround sounds a great deal more interesting than anything else that is on offer, and in spite of all my New Year resolutions to forswear sin etc. I might well be tempted if there are any trains running from here to the UV.

Who else is is committed to more sinning in 2003?

Interested sinners please apply below: -


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: GUEST,Matthew Edwards
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM

Guest: I'm sorry for muddling the names in the Rusby family, but my recollections of the broadcast are sketchy at present. It was really delightful to hear Kate describe how she had heard the carols over the years, without realising that they were significant.

That is the real essence of folk : that it is just there whether you take any notice or not.

People will, and do sing regardless of whether anyone is watching or listening, and this is what makes the Yorkshire carol singing so wonderful to experience.


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Subject: RE: BBC on pub carols tradition - catch it!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 08:05 AM

I hope that the custom will continue in South Yorkshire without any hassle from the licensing authorities, but I agree with Shambles that if the new licensing law does go ahead as proposed, many of our traditional customs could be put in jeopardy. The current powers-that-be may be benign, but councils change all the time and if somebody decides that some useful revenue is available from licenses then you could find the law being applied in a draconian fashion (as in Greenwich and other areas.)

It's no good sticking your head in the sand, we've got to fight this thing BEFORE it does become law.


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