BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'

Subject: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 04:08 AM

I know what they mean, but am very interested in how they came to be?

Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 04:25 AM

Oxford English Dictionary
Chuff - 1530 origin unknown 1. puffed out with fat; chubby 2. pleased, happy
Thus chuffed equal pleased or happy but it's origin in English cannot be decided but it was first known to be used in 1530
Sussed is not given an entry is it possibly derived from susception one definition of which is 3. the action or capacity of taking something into the mind, or what is so taken; passive mental reception 1756.
Katlaughing, I know the volumes are expensive, but the OED is wonderful. Even the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary in two volumes is brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 04:42 AM

I'm guessing here, "suss" is vernacular slang and probably derives from an abbreviation of "suspicion" , particularly with the connotation of "arrested on suspicion". The policeman would have "sussed" out the suspect.

I don't remember hearing the term prior to 1970. It was probably popularized by TV.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 05:49 AM

"Chuffed" can equally mean the opposite, being very displeased. Presumably this is by the same process that other words reverse their meaning - "wicked" meaning "good" etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Micca
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 06:44 AM

Kevin, a Mate often used the term" Dis-Chuffed" and "Gruntled" as a means of reversing the meanings of the 2 words. As in " I was distinctly dis-chuffed at waht he did" and "he looked a bit more gruntled when I bought him a pint"

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 06:54 AM

Hey, Micca, I'm pretty gruntled to see you here!

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 07:05 AM

As Huey Lewis sang, "Sometimes bad is bad." Over here, "bad" is cool. Not cool, meaning not so hot...

You dig?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 07:49 AM

Sally in the garden making duff,
And the cheeks of her arse went chuff chuff chuff
To me hogs eye, railroad navvy to me hogs eye
Row the boat ashore to me hogs eye oh,
She wants a hog eye man.
I rest my case!.....Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Mugwump
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 08:12 AM

Hat's Duff? and what's she making it from?

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 09:01 AM

Plumduff is a kind of pudding.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:39 AM

Thnaks ya'll!

Raggytash, thanks, I know and it is on my list. However, it is more fun and interesting to ask you lot to see what your creative minds come up with!

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 11:33 AM

Micca:

Actually, "gruntle" is an old word, but not what your friend was making it.

"disgruntle (esp. in pa disguntled)--whence disgruntlement (-ment)--combines dis-, apart,+ (now only dial) gruntle, to grunt often, to complain, a freq of GRUNT."   from ORIGINS, A Short Etymological Dictionary of Modern English.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:26 PM

From that 1530 occurrence - "1. puffed out with fat; chubby " it looks as though portmanteau words go back a lot further than Lewis Carroll. It looks pretty clearly like a combination of "chubby" and "stuffed".

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:26 PM

Sus, Suss added to the OED in the 1987 supplement. It is derived from suspicion, as Murray McDonald guessed from its usage. The first quotation is from a novel by Curtis, 1936: "What you nick me for? Sus? The OED puts "sus" first.

Chuffed also added in 1987 OED supplement with two meanings: a. pleased, satisfied. b. displeased, disgruntled. As to which came first, the OED isn't very helpful. A quote for pleased is dated 1957; the one for displeased is dated 1960. An expert on slang is required to sort it out. The two could have arisen in different areas of the British Isles at the same time. In 1914, it was the "chuffing" sound of some machinery.

The popularity of British mystery and comedy on American TV has added these and other words to everyday American speech. Another one, now common in America, is "nosh."

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:36 PM

It has been my understanding that "nosh" is a Yiddishism.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:43 PM

This site seems to indicate that Uncle Dave is right there. The puzzle is that it seems to have caught on in standard English slang first.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 04:29 AM

Oooooooops, so suss is in now,looks like the OED that I got for my 21st is out of date, having said that as I celebrated the 21st anniversary of my 21st some years ago it's not too surprising.
When I lived in Eccles and drank with the likes of Ted Edwards we used to have word games by adding or subtracting prefixes and suffixes to words dischuffed was one of the many we came up with all those years ago as well as gruntled.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: CapriUni
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 07:13 AM

So, when someone says "I'm chuffed," how are you supposed to take it -- assuming you can't read their voice or facial expressions (online, say)?

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 07:20 AM

there's a sea shanty with the word 'chuff' in it.

could have a different meaning?

'sara's in the kitchen plumping duff,

the cheeks of her arse going chuff,chuff,chuff'!!

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 07:21 AM

8-]

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Declan
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 07:23 AM

Capri,

I think you could generally assume that if they say they are chuffed that its good rather than bad as this is the more common usage.

Of course if you assume they are happy and they are not, they might get a bit miffed about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: CapriUni
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 07:51 AM

Of course if you assume they are happy and they are not, they might get a bit miffed about it.

Going from chuffed to miffed, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 01:07 PM

The sea chanty has the old meaning of chuffing, like the sound of a steam engine. Nood one, I hadn't heard that verse before.
Uncle Dave and McGrath raise an interesting point. A number of Yiddish expressions took hold in American cities. Others seem to have taken hold in England and Europe. Now some of them are being exchanged apart from the origin.

Whei I was a child, directions provided with remedies, etc., usually were printed in several languages, including Yiddish. Being a peculiar child, I would read and pick up some of the words. Or was I not peculiar in this sense, did others do the same thing out of common curiosity? I don't think "nosh" would appear very often in these little folders of instructions, however.

The OED has quite a bit on nosh, nosher and noshery in the 1987 supplement. It says chiefly American, which could be true, but had it entered the speech of non-Jewish peoples there?. The first example of its use in English noted in the OED was in "The Observer" for 1957. H. L. Mencken did not include it in his book, "The American Language," but it was noted in a later (1963) revision by McDavid.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 01:11 PM

I used the word 'sus' as a shortened form of 'suspicion' in a song called Talkin Conchie Blues. I referred to an inmate of Barlinnie Gaol (Glasgow) doing time for 'sus'. This was 1957 and the texpression was well known. If a known criminal was acting 'suspicious' he could be apprehended and given 'time' in gaol, usually two weeks.
Jim McLean

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 02:09 AM

A reference to "duff" in the discussion. I was always under the impression this expression came from 'dough' being enunciated as in 'tough'?
Bill Charlton

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 03:26 AM

I've wondered where 'Gig' comes from, in the sense of a musical engagement.
Off
   on
    a
      tangent
             again.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Arnie
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 03:50 AM

If someone is very happy then the expression in most parts of the UK is well-chuffed!

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 05:23 AM

I've only ever heard 'chuffed' as meaning a positive thing, up here in Lancashire.
Dischuffed is prety common for the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 04:54 PM

For gig, the OED offers a first definition of a two-wheeled carriage pulled by one horse, or a light fast narrow boat adapted for rowing or sailing. The origin offered is "Late 18thC, apparently a transferred sense of obsolete gig, 'a flighty girl', which was also applied to various objects or devices that whirled." (hence whirligig, presumably).

The second def. is "a live performance... Origin 1920s & unknown".

I suggest that there is a transferral in meaning, of something rapid moving & ephemeral. It is perhaps worth noting that the OED offers a 3rd def. "a harpoon-like weapon used for catching fish, Origin - shortening of earlier fizgig, probably from Spanish fisga 'harpoon'." This is from the early 18thC & thus predates the more common senses. A harpoon is something quick moving & not necessarily substantial (in the sense that the head of a harpoon usually detaches from the shaft). I seems sorta logical to me... (But then I'm not wholly sober jus' now! :) )

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 05:13 PM

There are a couple of threads devoted solely to "gig" well at least they started out devoted solely to it...fun reads, both of them!

clickety,

and, clack.

Now, I've a question. Who can tell me why my cousin's name, Gerald, when shortened is spelled "Jerry?" Even he doesn't know! Also, I've been wondering how "Gillian" is pronounced in the UK, as well as "Gilly." Over here, the former would be with a hard "g" as in jail/gaol, while the latter would probably be with a soft "g" as in gig.

I love it when we all start comparing notes this way!

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 05:46 PM

Well, it's up to him, he could just as soon spell it Gerry. We get them, both. But Gerry seesm more common - especially in anybody wioth an Irish connection.

In my experience g in gaol and the g in gig and Gillian are pretty well the same, all what I'd call soft g's - as opposed to the hard g in goat and goal.

(And different from the sound you'd get in a French soft g for names like Gerard - sort of a zh almost.)

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:13 PM

So, Kevin, when you say "gig" it is with a g which sounds like a "j?"

I know the French "gigue" has the "zh" that you speak of, correct? But, out here, if we say "gig" it is the same as "gut.":-) Now I am really confused!**bg**

Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:41 PM

BTW, gruntle is a back formation of disgruntled that dates only from the '30s. There is a not uncommon misunderstanding happening here.

People often see a 'negative' compound word & assume that removing the negatory prefix makes the word positive. Thus "disgruntled" is assumed to become "pleased" by back formation. This is actually incorrect.

English is a peculiar language (as any fule knoe.. ;) ), & one of its peculiarities is the intensive. Disgruntled is one of them. Gruntled does not mean "happy". Gruntle is a dialect word meaning 'utter little grunts', or "complain". The presence of 'dis-' is intensive, not negative - "grunt complainingly, only more so...". A better example, perhaps, is "irregardless". Regardless means without regard. Irregardless does not mean "with regard", cancelling the "-less". It means "without regard, only more so!"

I seem to remember my dear old dad (b. 1927, d. 1999) commenting on the way words change their meaning. Chuffed, originally, did not mean happy, but the exact opposite!

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:43 PM

funny...the word 'chuffed' always sounds to me like a negative thing, even though I know better. I guess I am comparing the sound and 'feel' of the word with words I have grown up with. I have to stop and tell myself "it IS from a different culture"...

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 07:37 PM

Raggytash lived IN Eccles?

No wonder Eccles was such a strange man... :-)

Robin
(Goon Show Fanatic!)

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 08:18 PM

Sorry kat - I meant same sound as in jig. Gig is the same g as goat and girl. Gillian is the same g as German and gaol. And Gerry.

Subject: RE: BS: Whence came 'chuffed' and 'sussed?'
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 09:44 PM

Thanks, Kevin, I get it, now.:-)

Bill, I know what you mean! Kind of sounds like the Three Little Pigs and the big bad wolf "chuffing and puffing," eh?

kat