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BS: Protestant State!

Fiolar 01 Jan 03 - 05:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jan 03 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jan 03 - 06:26 AM
Big Tim 01 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM
ard mhacha 01 Jan 03 - 07:20 AM
Big Tim 01 Jan 03 - 09:47 AM
Gareth 01 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jan 03 - 11:10 AM
ard mhacha 01 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM
ard mhacha 01 Jan 03 - 12:25 PM
Gareth 01 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM
Big Tim 01 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM
Big Tim 01 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM
wilco 01 Jan 03 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,paddymac 01 Jan 03 - 02:45 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM
Big Mick 01 Jan 03 - 03:59 PM
ard mhacha 01 Jan 03 - 04:05 PM
ard mhacha 01 Jan 03 - 04:11 PM
Ireland 01 Jan 03 - 04:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM
Big Mick 01 Jan 03 - 04:39 PM
Ireland 01 Jan 03 - 04:42 PM
Ireland 01 Jan 03 - 05:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM
Ireland 01 Jan 03 - 06:00 PM
vectis 01 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Jan 03 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Q 01 Jan 03 - 11:57 PM
Big Tim 02 Jan 03 - 06:14 AM
Ireland 02 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM
Ireland 02 Jan 03 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,JTT 02 Jan 03 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,T-boy 02 Jan 03 - 07:47 AM
HuwG 02 Jan 03 - 08:56 AM
weerover 02 Jan 03 - 09:27 AM
ard mhacha 02 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jan 03 - 10:16 AM
Coyote Breath 02 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM
Ireland 02 Jan 03 - 04:20 PM
Jimmy C 02 Jan 03 - 04:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jan 03 - 04:34 PM
Ireland 02 Jan 03 - 04:47 PM
Big Tim 02 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM
Ireland 02 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 02 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM
Jimmy C 02 Jan 03 - 11:10 PM
ard mhacha 03 Jan 03 - 05:32 AM
ard mhacha 03 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,JTT 03 Jan 03 - 06:46 AM
Declan 03 Jan 03 - 07:28 AM
Ireland 03 Jan 03 - 09:50 AM
Ireland 03 Jan 03 - 10:38 AM
Jimmy C 03 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM
Ireland 03 Jan 03 - 01:30 PM
Gareth 03 Jan 03 - 01:39 PM
ard mhacha 03 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM
Ireland 03 Jan 03 - 01:59 PM
Ireland 03 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jan 03 - 02:58 PM
Jimmy C 03 Jan 03 - 03:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jan 03 - 03:05 PM
Ireland 03 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM
Big Tim 03 Jan 03 - 04:56 PM
ard mhacha 03 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM
greg stephens 03 Jan 03 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Cuchullain 03 Jan 03 - 06:10 PM
Ireland 03 Jan 03 - 07:37 PM
Jimmy C 04 Jan 03 - 01:05 AM
GUEST 04 Jan 03 - 04:00 AM
GUEST 04 Jan 03 - 04:54 AM
Ireland 04 Jan 03 - 07:24 AM
Ireland 04 Jan 03 - 07:46 AM
Big Mick 04 Jan 03 - 09:47 AM
Ireland 04 Jan 03 - 10:31 AM
Big Tim 04 Jan 03 - 11:32 AM
Ireland 04 Jan 03 - 01:19 PM
greg stephens 04 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM
Big Tim 04 Jan 03 - 02:36 PM
Ireland 04 Jan 03 - 02:53 PM
Big Tim 04 Jan 03 - 03:38 PM
Big Tim 05 Jan 03 - 10:42 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 05 Jan 03 - 08:39 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 05 Jan 03 - 08:47 PM
HuwG 06 Jan 03 - 09:01 AM
Ireland 06 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

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Subject: BS: Protestant State!
From: Fiolar
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:23 AM

Records released under the 30 year rule to the British Public Records Office reveal that in 1972 Edward Heath's Tory Government drew up secret plans to forcibly evict up to 500,000 Catholics from Nothern Ireland.They would be "resettled" in areas near the Irish Republic. The border would then be re-drawn making Nothern Ireland a Protestant only province. Now where have I have heard "resettlement plans" before?


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:42 AM

Here's a link to the story. One of a number of options considered but discarded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:26 AM

1972. They just were out of their depth. No one knew what to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM

Agreed, Keith. It was a daft, desperate idea that could never have worked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 07:20 AM

Correct Tim, nor did it work in 1922. Ard Mhacha


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 09:47 AM

They would have to have "sealed the border", patrolled the coasts and skies and prevented people of different brands of christianity from marrying each other! I wonder how seriously the idea was considered though? And where would the Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc have gone? "Daft" really is the only word.

Ard: happy new year, war is over?


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM

Well, I doubt if it would have worked, but then the Conservatives have always supported apartied.

Instead post 1972 we have seen "religious cleansing" of areas by protestants, and catholics, quite happy to deny to each other the civil rights and liberties they claim for themselves.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:10 AM

This was back in the news just before Christmas.


http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/claudy%20massacre.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM

And it didn`t work in 1922. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

It's the kind of "thinking" that still seems to be seen as respectable in Israel.

Desperate times produce stupid ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM

So far as they considered this proposal at all (and it wasn't very far at all) it was only in desperation. And it's only fair to mention that the 30-year disclosures have also revealed that the Tory foreign secretary of the day (and former PM) Alec Douglas-Home was in favour then (1972) of a united Ireland.

But I'm puzzled by Mudcat's pre-occupation with Ireland. I know many emigrated to America from Ireland, but millions did too from mainland Europe where religious intolerance has wrought far greater mayhem. Right now I'm doing a piece for a London paper about the slaughter of Orthodox Christians in Croatia in 1941-44 - more than 700,000 killed, often buried alive, thousands at a time, or sometimes sliced up by robed catholic priests and Franciscan religious after having their eyes gouged and tongues pulled out.

The Nazi puppet regime, the Ustashe, had the blessing of the catholic archbishop of Zagreb, who was a member of the country's governing council, and is now on course - incredibly - for sainthood. As evidence of miracles, or other magic, in his name might be hard to find, he will be canonised on the strength of his martyrdom. (That is to say, he died about nine years after being released from prison, having served only a small part of the sentence he got for his war crimes. Some martyr.)

So bravo, Pope Pius XII, and bravo John Paul II. And bravo USA administrations that paved the way for Tuddjeman's more recent regime in Croatia, in which he restored all the symbols and insignia of the clero-fascist Ustashe. Such ready accommodation of brutality beyond belief helped pave the way for the horrific, genocidal retaliation by the Serbs a few years ago. What the Serbs did was beyond excuse certainly, but in Croatia they had been on the receiving end of the most depraved mass cruelty since the dark ages, and done in the name of God.

Yet the doctrinal differences between the eastern and western (catholic) churches were trivial against those between catholicism and the reformed churches in Ireland. It came down to whether it should be leavened or unleavened bread that was turned into the flesh of Jesus (while mysteriously retaining the smell, taste and texture of bread!). In Ireland partition was wrong, but it allowed northern protestants to divorce and use contraceptives. And it allowed southern catholics to use their public parks and swimming pools on Sundays.

On the whole, Ireland (and the UK) has escaped lightly from imbecile religious differences that have ravaged Europe. But anyone researching the subject a few centuries hence would never know it from the Mudcat archive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:25 PM

No wonder the Brits were unprepared, with their one-eyed outlook on all things Irish they were caught with their trousers down.
They left the six counties to rot in the hands of the most bigotted people imagineable, I had more than a fair idea what it was like to be a black in the US or South Africa.
This was the fault of sucessive British Governments, whilst gerrymandering of votes went on and the bigots responsible knew that a blind eye was forever being shown by their friends across the Channel. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM

Hmmm ! - There does seem to be a blind (?? Bigoted ??) spot where Ireland is concerned.

As a certain faction seems to utilise folk memory and myth to justify inhuman actions it seems only fair that the the other side of the coin is also shown, and in the interest of folk balence I post this :-

Portadown

In sixteen hundred and forty one those fenians formed a plan
To massacre us Protestants down by the River Bann
To massacre us Protestants and not to spare a man
But to drive us down like a heard of swine into the River Bann

Brave Porter fell a victim, because he did intend
To help his brother Protestants their lives for to defend
The blood did stain the waters red, their bones lay all around
As they drove them down into the Bann that flows Through Portadown

A lady living in Loughgall and with her children five
She begged for the sake of them to let her be alive
That she might go to England her husband there to see
And to live in peace and unity and far from Popery

But O they would not hear her cry, they placed her on the ground
And after having tortured her the six of them they bound
They said you are a heretic, the Pope you do defy
And its from this bridge in Portadown this day your doom to die.

And after having tortured her to a pain she could not stand
Down through the streets of Portadown they dragged her to the Bann
OShane appointed as her guard to guide her on her way
And the thought of five young children was leading her astray

At least the hundred faithful souls in Portadown were slain
All were the deeds of Popery their wicked words to gain
But god sent down brave Cromwell our Deliverer to be
And he put down Popery in this land us Protestants set free

King William soon came after him and planted at the Boyne
An Orange Tree there that we should bear in mind
How Popery did murder us Protestants did drown
The bones of some can still be seen this day in Portadown.

Taken from this rather interesting, in the historical context, site Click 'Ere


I may concur with views on the attitudes of the old Stormont regime, and in this conection I refer 'Catters to that excllent 'Left Book Club' publication - "John Bull's Other Island" by Marcus Lipton MP, published in 1946 or 47. Should be available by Libuary 'interloan'.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM

The coverage of this in the Daily Telegraph has more quotes, indicating fairly clearly that the civil servant who got the job of writing up this option thought it was totally unviable and a bloody silly idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM

Oh no Gareth, not 1641, please. But: as in 1798, there were stupid sectarian massacres by both sides. Portadown (1641) and Scullabogue (1798) were not one way. The historical facts are there. Plus ca change or whatever... Good comment though about ethnic cleansing and mutual denying of rights. Does ethnic cleansing ultimately favour the Catholics? Penning the Protestants into two or three, unviable, counties?

Mudcat isn't obsessed with Irishry, just some of us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM

A good, balanced, rational perspective from Fionn, as ever. Yes we, the Irish, are only small fish in a small pond. But it's OUR pond though.

"Partition was wrong"? This fascinates me. Am I the only Irish republican in the world who thinks that partition was indeed necessary? If it was wrong, what was the workable political, social, cultural, political alternative; then and now? We're back to the Michael Collins Treaty dilemma again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: wilco
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:23 PM

These threads are very, very sad, reminding us of religious vigotry and intolerance, centuries' old hatreds. the horror of mixing reliogion and politics, etc.
    Like the US Civil War here (1861-1865), these old wounds can't seem to be sealed and healed. Why doesn't this have resolution in Ireland?


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,paddymac
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 02:45 PM

Well said, Fionn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM

Thanks for pulling me in, Big Tim! Far too assertive, as ever. If I'd thought for a moment, I'd have said partition was "unsatisfactory" - just as any other solution then available would have been. (I think you know I'm with Collins's on the big question.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 03:59 PM

One of the things that Mudcat has changed for me is how I approach these threads. Since I have started to use them to enhance my understanding of the land and the culture that spawned me, instead of running my mouth, I have become much better informed with regard to how peace will happen. This is another of those illuminating threads. Thanks to all.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:05 PM

Fionn, Living in the six counties for a period might change your tune.
You know alls can only come up with the your one and only rhyme, "o if the Irish were all like the rest of us fair minded people"
I have seen people come here with their grandiose notions of turning the other cheek and showing us how to behave in a reasonable manner,
after a time living here they soon learned who was on the wrong end of a bigotted regime. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:11 PM

Big Mick, If you really want to know what went on here just put the name John McGuffin on your Yahoo Search and read this Protestants two books [both on line], The Guineapigs and Internment.
Afterwards come back on to this thread and tell me I am wrong. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:13 PM

How many people look at Ireland as an isolated problem, in 1690, the Pope supported the defeat of James 2, so really we are putting religion in to this at a time when people of either religion could be found on both sides.

ie. The pope,Alexander VIII, supported King William, who was a protestant and celebrated the defeat of James 2 by having all the church bell in Christendom to be rung. Hardly an action you would expect if you were in fear of your Church members.

Maybe a better understanding of European and Catholic Church history at that time is needed,then people would not be making the ridicules statements that they do.

James 2 was a threat to European peace and his actions were seen as a threat to the Pope and his authority. Take the religion aspect out of it and what is left, a battle that was part of a power struggle, nothing to do with religion.

We have been lead up the garden path on the religious divide,why do we have people moaning about English monarchy when they fought and died for the ENGLISH King James 2? What treatment would people of Ireland expect to receive if James 2 had won, certainly not the right to self govern as James 2 had plans to install English leaders. Maybe we all know these little important details but chose to ignore them as it confuses the situation.

If we have had such a divide on religious grounds, who were the Free Irish men, Presbyterian how far can you get from Catholics than them.

It is only been in the beginning of the last century that the divide has be widened, the advent of those orange men and other groups using religion and bigotry to drive a wedge between us, and stupidly we all followed. Or that's the opinion of the ignorant.

People are wetting themselves at the prospect that there will be more Catholics than Protestants, which they assume will immediately vote for a United Ireland, utter nonsense, religion has nothing to do with this. As in the 1690's not all Catholics fought for James 2 and not all Protestants fought for William. But lets not let a bit of hysteria get in our way.

It is convenient to forget the past and the reasons behind the conflicts so we can make a better case for whatever cause we agree with. People believe that a United Europe will solve our problems, why not considering our problems stem from a power struggle for Europe and Ireland was just a pawn in the mess.

The stupid part of the whole situation is when and if we become an United Europe, what will that entail, English, French, German and other EU countries being in charge. So are people fighting for self determination just to hand it over to others? If so what a terrible waste of life of those who thought they were fighting for a cause.

The 1922 partition was a solution to stop the blood shed, Collins paid the price for trying to save lives and get an United Ireland with other means. Maybe he seen enough of the dead on both sides, which many commentators are protected from, to think it was worth a try.

Who cares that someone came up with an idea at what is today known as a brainstorming session, it is all well and good that at the end of 30 or so years we can look at such records. Are terrorists meticulously keeping records so we can judge them in the future?

Protestants also suffered in the rotting six counties,for many working class people religion was not a factor.


Maybe this site will be of some help.
Cain Site


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM

What happened in 1922 is water under the bridge, and there's no real point in arguing about it. If I'd been there at the time and had a vote, I'd have voted against it. Very probably I'd have fought against it too, like my father did in Tipperary, right or wrong. (And like him I'd have lamented the double loss of Michael Collins - the loss of him to the other side, and the loss of him to the other world.)

But whatever you can change you can't change the past, and it's a waste of time acting and talking as if you could. That doesn't mean you can't learn from the mistakes of the past, and the fundamental mistake of that time way was the division between republicans; but the deeper and more fundamental mistake in earlier generations had been the division between the two sets of people who have to share the island between them of which partition when itb came became the physical representation.

Set against some of the horrors which have beset other part of the world, the divisions within Ireland would hardly register, though it seems strange to say that. If peace can't be built between the divided traditions in Ireland there's no hope for places like the former Yugoslavia or Central Africa. Ending partition on the ground isn't what it's really about, ending the division between people is what really matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:39 PM

ard mhacha, I think you misunderstand me. None of my post was pointed at you specifically, or your position. I am not even saying that I agree or disagree on any particular persons post. I am quite sincere in saying that as I watch the various posts from the folks most affected by the troubles, I learn a great deal about this situation in the North. A discussion of my views on all this would be a separate thing.

In the meantime, I hope all will carry on. It is very interesting to me to hear the defence of the various positions.

Thanks,

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:42 PM

Your right McG of H, the problem with the past is those who use it as an excuse for their actions which shape the future.

Love to hear more on your Fathers time in Tipperary, did he think that fighting on would have been successful, I hope I don't offend you by asking this, just interested in hearing from those who where there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:07 PM

A quote from James Connolly with reference to 1690 period:

"The forces which battled beneath the walls of Derry or Limerick were not the forces of England and Ireland but were the forces of two English political parties fighting for the possession of the powers of government; and the leaders of the Irish Wild Geese on the battlefields of Europe were not shedding their blood because of their fidelity to Ireland, as our historians pretend to believe, but because they had attached themselves to the defeated side in English politics. This fact was fully illustrated by the action of the old Franco-Irish at the time of the French Revolution. They in a body volunteered into the English army to help put down the new French Republic, and as a result Europe witnessed the spectacle of the new republican Irish exiles fighting for the French Revolution, and the sons of the old aristocratic Irish exiles fighting under the banner of England to put down that Revolution. It is time we learned to appreciate and value the truth upon such matters, and to brush from our eyes the cobwebs woven across them by our ignorant or unscrupulous history-writing politicians."


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Subject: Lyr Add: Days upon the run
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM

I don't think success or failure would have been in his mind. In that kind of situation, especially when you're nineteen, I suspect you act on instinct, and in Tipperary the overwhelming feeling was against the Treaty.

As he told it once, he was in Clonmel, and the Free Staters were coming in one end of the town , and he had a gun and was told to hand it in, and he met a friend who'd been told the same - and they looked at each other, and went out of the town the back way up into the hills to find the men who were still fighting under Liam Lynch.

I wrote this song about it, after he died:

Oh they slipped away when it was barely day
into the hills that lay above the town.
And they wandered lonely on the mluntaisn stony,
while the soldiers hunted all around.
Like some fox to fly, all on the mountain high,
and to do what little could be done,
in a helpless struggle in those days of trouble,
in those desperate days upon the run.
And for some it ended in a lonely bullet,
and for some it ended in a cell,
and for some it ended in a life resplendant,
as a statesman doing very well.
But for some it ended in a hope suspended,
and a life beneath a foreign sun,
and in dreams persistant of a time far distant,
and of far off days upon the run.


Well they walked all day up on that rocky mountain,
till the sun went down behind the hill,
and they came that evening to a house lying wauting -
there was noone there who'd wish them ill -
but they slept that night there, high up in the heather,
and they shivered in the morning sun,
for a passing breath, it might mean life or death
to those boys who went upon the run.
And for some it ended in a lonely bullet,
and for some it ended in a cell,
and for some it ended in a life resplendant,
as a statesman doing very well.
But for some it ended in a hope suspended,
and a life beneath a foreign sun,
and in dreams persistant of a time far distant,
and of far off days upon the run.



And at dawn they came upon a rushing river,
with a hidden rope from side to side,
and they dragged their bodies through the freezing water,
and they walked all day till they were dry.
And their boots wore through, and they were lost and weary,
and the sun, the sun was beating down,
and their heads grew giddy, and the guns so heavy,
in those endless days upon the run.
And for some it ended in a lonely bullet,
and for some it ended in a cell,
and for some it ended in a life resplendant,
as a statesman doing very well.
But for some it ended in a hope suspended,
and a life beneath a foreign sun,
and in a fading story, of shame and glory,
and of far off days upon the run.


For him the "foreign sun" was Argentina; and when he came back a few years later he fough for six years in the British Army against the Nazis. A friend told me once that when he was once asked in some court case (motoring) if it wasn'y a bit strange for an old IRA man to have fought later in the British Army, he said "I always believed in defending the rights of small nations - even my own."


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:00 PM

I'm sure your Father did not blindly follow, he must have had reasons for his actions. He must have had an understanding of what was going on to leave for Argentina.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: vectis
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM

My Irish grandfather fought for the Brotherhood.
My English grandfather was a member of the Plymouth Bretheren and joined the Black and Tans rather than go to the Somme.
After the war my English grandfather was so ashamed of his part in the fighting (including a shoot out with my Irish grandfather, both unwounded -poor shots?) that he told no-one what he had done for 60 years.

There is one island, surely common sense dictates that it should be one nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM

He did what he saw as the right thing to do. None of us can do more than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 08:40 PM

ard mhacha, I was in Belfast for nearly 12 very turbulent years (1971-82). In my 54 years, I've not spent as long anywhere else except Leeds (14 years). Maybe the problem's the other way round, and you need to spend some time away from the north to get a longer view.

I know full well about Stormont from books and from people who lived through it, and I'm tired of having to repeat that I know it wasn't the most noble regime of modern times. And I know that there are many in the north now who would still go back to that, given half a chance. They are people who have a deep-seated culture, going back generations, just like most of us. And it seems that when people see a serious threat to everything they were brought up taking for granted, they are likely to behave like eejits. I'm not defending them, just recognising the problem. Also having met lots of them in cross-community sports like traditional music and motorbike roadracing, I've noticed that many of them, in any other situation, would be as decent human beings as you could hope to find.

My sympathies are overwhelmingly with the republicans and overwhelmingly against Ulster "loyalism." But I have sometimes found the arguments at Mudcat disproportionately one-sided (it seems a good bit better nowadays) so I've maybe been over-noisy putting the other side.

Of course the British empire was a Bad Thing. Of course the Ottoman empire was a Bad Thing. Etc, etc. And ultimately the Roman empire was a disaster too, because in its own self-interest it nurtured and cultivated a religion uniquely obsessed with temporal power and wealth, which grew its own empire (the so-called papal states) and even its own Gestapo: the Inquisition. Or as it was rebranded for the 20th century, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. (Orwell would have loved it.)

Much of the reaction against this church is sustained by playing on irrational fear and ignorance. But the fact remains that a united Ireland in 1972 (when a Tory statesman was advocating it) would have meant plunging the entire population of Northern Ireland into a state that was as reactionary as any in Europe, and virtually ruled by clerics who saw to it that divorce and contraceptives were illegal, and that thousands of perfectly reasonable books were proscribed if not actually burned, for the barmiest of reasons.

Of course the Republic has transformed itself beyond all recognition since then. And so is the north transformed. The church too did start on a reforming path, but soon alas backpedalled. As for the handling of child-abuse scandals, and insensitive gestures like the recent (1998) beatification of Archbishop Stepinac of Zagreb, well I can only despair that the laity put up with it. (In America, at least, they are increasingly refusing to do so.)

So if you want to keep saying your side are right and the other side wrong, ard mhacha, I am happy to keep arguing that it is NEVER that easy. And upsetting as the situation in Ireland is, there are parts of the world where similar problems have left the situation a thousand times worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 11:57 PM

Not related, but this thread reminded me of the efforts by some to resettle American slaves in Africa in the 1820s. They were settled in Liberia and in "Maryland," which was absorbed into Liberia. The descendants of these returned Negroes are a tiny fragment of the population of the country, which is one of the poorest and often beset by internal strife.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:14 AM

More confused chronology I fear: the Somme was 1916, the Black and Tans were formed in 1920.

My wife's grandfather, who was a Scottish Protestant, was in the British Army and helped put down the Easter Rising. The experience turned him into a lifelong supporter of Irish republicanism. Yea folks, it's a messy, complex situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:59 AM

My sympathies are overwhelmingly with the republicans and overwhelmingly against Ulster "loyalism." But I have sometimes found the arguments at Mudcat disproportionately one-sided (it seems a good bit better nowadays) so I've maybe been over-noisy putting the other side.

Are you justifying the atrocities carried out by the republican terrorist, who by the way are responsible for the majority of deaths,Catholic and protestant?

Are you saying one terrorist group is more preferable to another?

Or are you just saying sorry Armagh I was playing devils advocate with the use of my limited knowledge and hope I do not offend you by having opinions different than yours.

How can anyone be noisy putting terrorists down, tolerating any terrorist group is what keeps N.I. in turmoil and encourages the scum that make up these groups.

You talk about throwing Northern Ireland into a state that was as reactionary as any in Europe. The problems stem from European power struggles, Ireland was promised to the English by those in power in Europe, who gave France or the Pope any right to hand Ireland over to anyone?

At that time England was doing nothing wrong in the eyes of it neighbours, it was being encouraged so others maintained their power.

Our problems stem from a total lack of understanding and a total ignorance to our history, the orange order (real eejits)would like to deny that the hated Pope was one of King Williams allies. To keep the pot going they introduced the religous divide and the rest followed. Connolly figured that out pity more did not listen.

Yes we have a twisted country it's twisted by hatred and ignorance from both sides, thankfully more people are realising there are alternatives since we have the terrorists off our backs.

There are no innocnts as far as N.I. is concerned, there have been plenty of injustices but what can we do about them now, other than condemn them and resolve not to make them again. That is going to hard to do when some among us do not look back truthfully and objectively.

Your 12 years in N.I. would have shown you that the rioting etc is in small pockets and is seldom heard of unless people are caught up in it. Glynbryne and other areas are isolated to every day life in N.I., just because there are nightly riots there does not mean we all are affected or involved. But to some bigoted people being protestant/catholic means we must know and agree with all the actions of loyalist/repub terrorists. This mindset keeps the whole thing going and is specific to N.I. and neither side can take the moral high ground and say they do not do that.

We all have to be honest and accept our failings or maybe that is a lofty ideal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 07:16 AM

"The experience turned him into a lifelong supporter of Irish republicanism. Yea folks, it's a messy, complex situation."

It was my experiences also that has me supporting a United Ireland Big Tim, I realised that I did not want to be involved in keeping the like of Paisley in power or any bigot for that matter. I want a country where we vote for people on how good they are for the whole country not just their own wee clan.

I believe that the unionists have done an injustice to all in Ulster, we have never been able to vote for our own prime minister as such, the Unionists used the block vote to keep Maggie and others in power in exchange for certain favours.

Because these favours benefitted the unionist supporters, people were easily hoodwinked into keeping the old crowd in power. We have been foolish and fooled, but in the end if we keep having our failings threw up at the drop of a hat and the failings of those who do it ignored the result is the digging in of heels. No good for anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 07:31 AM

Quote: "No wonder the Brits were unprepared, with their one-eyed outlook on all things Irish they were caught with their trousers down."

Congratulations on a beautifully mixed metaphor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 07:47 AM

If it's impossible (or a bloody silly idea) to move people from one area to another, how did the Protestant community get to Northern Ireland from (mostly) Scotland ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: HuwG
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 08:56 AM

Big Tim asked "And where would the Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc have gone? ". There is a very old joke about the Troubles; a shopkeeper of Pakistani or other Asian origin goes to the Royal Ulster Constabulary and complains about some robbery or vandalism. The Policeman takes down his name and address and asks, "What is your religion ?". The Asian replies, "I am a Moslem." The Policeman asks, "Is that a Protestant Moslem or a Catholic Moslem ?"

The non-Christian population of Northern Ireland is far fewer (proportionally) than in most UK Cities, as is the African / Caribbean population. I don't know whether there is less racial antagonism involving immigrants from the Commonwealth than in the rest of the UK, or whether it is masked by sectarian tension.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: weerover
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 09:27 AM

Old gag: plane flying into Belfast, pilot's voice is heard over the Tannoy, "Ladies and gentlemen, we are about to land at Aldergrove airport. Please put your watches back three hundred years".


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM

Yes, JTT, I agree about the mixed metaphors, I had my metaphors mixed on many occasions by a kindly RUC man`s boots. Aed Mhacha..


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 10:16 AM

I wouldn't thioughtthat was a mixed metaphor, but rather was a reference to the one-eyed trouser snake...


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Even knowing of the many twists and turns of the history of the "British" Isles and knowing much about the current events in the North and having read extensively of the terrible events of the 1970's and 1980's, I still have a difficult time grasping the REALITY of life in the North.

Here in Franklin county, Missouri, USA, we all get along just fine. Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Moslem, Agnostic, Pagan, Atheist. So I have a hard time believeing that it is on the basis of religion alone that the tensions and turmoil persist.

History? Here in Missouri we killed each other (as civilians) over the issues and politics of the Civil War. We were called "The Outlaw State" because of the many roving bands of bushwhackers and Jayhawkers.

Some here still fly the Stars and Bars and no one thinks much of it since it is personal expression and is seen as such.

It MUST be that someone is GAINING something from all the turmoil in the North. I cannot tell what, I cannot tell who, but the why seems plain. A People divided can be more easily ruled.

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:20 PM

HuwG says, "I don't know whether there is less racial antagonism involving immigrants from the Commonwealth than in the rest of the UK, or whether it is masked by sectarian tension"

We still find time for a bit of racism, I had Chinese friends for neighbours, and have heard the stories of what happens to the Chinese community, from both sides. This leads me to believe that no matter what, there are those among us who crave violence, and the use any excuse from being loyalist thugs to republican/nationalist pretending to fight for their cause.

We have all the ills of society but we do not let it get in the way of knocking seven colors of chicken poo out of each other in the name of a cause.

The English were never caught with their trousers down, it was the other way round, we were being treated like unruly children and some still do not realise that. Sort of like "you can't get along we will separate you".

Such ethnic cleansing is not uncommon in Ireland as many Jewish quarters in Ireland were cleansed by the Catholic church, such little incidents are ignored to enable people to take the high moral ground. Common trait on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:25 PM

I did not want to get into this thread so I will post this one message only.

I don't give a damn about what happened in the 1600's, 1700's, 1800's or the 1900's other than fro a historical view. It is what is happening today that is important. I still maintain that if the catholic population had been able to depend on the Government, R.U.C. and/or the British Army the I.R.A. would not have been rejuvenated.

Here was a situation that, from the inception of the division of the country, allowed bigoted racist unionist moneymen to wage a campaign of dastardly proportions to ensure that catholics "WERE KEPT IN THEIR PLACE", and to add insult to injury, countless Westminster Governments turned a blind eye to what was happening in the North of Ireland. Catholics being excluded from a fair and even chance of getting jobs, housing etc. Cities like Derry with an overwhelming catholic population with not one catholic representative on the city council. Protestant clergymen ordering protestants not to sell property to catholics, even old empty unused buildings (this happened to an in-law of mine barely 10 years ago). The whole system was bigoted and corrupt. The police force, the only armed police force in the so called UK, with more power than even the South Africans, had carte blance in regards to their actions. I often wonder what the nationalist population was supposed to do ?. Enough time had elapsed and the governments had enough chances to start correcting the situation but they did NOTHING - NOTHING - NOTHING.

Even more alarming is how some working class protestants were convinced that they were better off than their catholic neighbours, because the orange order was taking care of them, This was bullshit, many protestants were no better off than we were, many of them were sold a bill of goods, all for their votes.

Anyway back to my question, What was the nationalist population supposed to do ?. Have a protest march - good idea - right. Before the march was completed the marchers (including some protestants) were viciously attacked by orange bullies and the guardians of peace, otherwise known as the R.U.C. So the trouble started and spread, getting more and more violent. In comes the british army, welcomed with open arms by the catholics. Maybe we can get some help from these nice english soldiers, Didn't happen, in a short time they were invading catholic homes, busting up furniture, beating up on teenage boys and girls. All for one purpose, that was to get the I.R.A. to come out into the open and fight. The I.R.A. at that time was still in existence but not anywhere near the strength it is today. So the ranks of the I.R.A. grew ( thanks to the british army ) and the I.R.A. did come out to fight, and lo and behold this ragamuffin army of barely trained young men and women fought the great british army to a standstill. That did not sit well with the authorities, so a campaign of dirty tricks was initiated to divert the attention away from the reason for the trouble and to bring negative attention instead to focus on the I.R.A. and The U.D.A. Now the world sees it all as an Irish problem, stupid irish, always fighting over religion, and the nice British government trying to sort things out?.
We hear this word terrorist and that one Irish side is as bad as the other Irish side, that may be so, but at least this time there are 2 sides. For many years in the north of Ireland there was really only one side and that one side consisted of a bigoted police force, a bigoted B-special part-time police force, a bigoted territorial part-time army -a bigoted orange order and a bigoted government that condoned the actions of all the groups that made up this one side, all under the eyes of a government in England that was too busy with other things or apathetic about the north of Ireland to take action. So please, lets put the blame where it really belongs, right at the doorstep of the people that allowed this situation to fester. The consecutive British and N.Ireland governments and their institutions. And lets think about what you would have done in the same situation ?. Take the people in Missouri for instance, what would have happened if good jobs, housing etc were for the most part reserved for pro-union desendants and the descendants of those who were pro-confederacy were discriminated against in all facets of their daily lives, What if these people had to contend with a bigoted police force, and /or politicians. How long should they be expected to take it?, how long before they would wage a protest.?. What would they do if the national guard attacked them as a result of this protest ?. Then to have an army from another country come in and act like hoolgans ?. What are they supposed to do ?.
Or what if the people in Atlanta had to contend with an annual march celebrating Sherman's march to the sea and the destruction of the Georgia countryside ?. Now what if there were over 4,000 such marches, every year from May to October. In every little town and villlage, year in and year out, and what if the government knew that this was a real insult to a sizeable portion of the citizens and major cause of trouble, but still let the marches go on. What would the people of Georgia think, and how would they react in time. That is how it is in the 6 counties. It's not one big parade on the 12th July, it is parades all over , in excess of 4,000 parades. every single year, all celebrating bigotry and hatred for their catholic neighbours. (I know also that not all protestants ae orangmen), but almost every elected protestant politician is an orangeman. They all knew how the catholic and nationalist population felt about this yearly insult and they DID NOTHING ABOUT IT, in fact most of them took part and delivered anti-catholic speeches as opposed to pro-protestant speeches. So don't go blaming this side for that and that side for this. This problem could have been greatly diluted if the government in power had the will to do so, they didn't and look at the results.

One more thing, please no more tears about the soldiers that were killed in this conflict, they were not without blame. One of the regiments has a regimental song (I think it may be the Gloucester Regiment). This song ends with the lines " We will conquer or we'll die". Well, they came, they did not conquer and some of them unfortunately died. Just as the song said, sometimes prophesies come true.? They would not have died if they had not been in Ireland, and they would not have been sent to Ireland if their government had taken action years ago to abolish racism and bigotry from Ireland. But as long as it was in ireland they did nothing about it, only when their soldiers started dying did the english public start to take notice. Too little too late.


Pete Seeger sang a song called "Talking Union", it has a great line where he sings " If you wait for the bosses to raise your pay
You'll all be waiting till judgement day
I believe that can be applied to the catholics in the North of Ireland. If they waited till the Unionists government and the British goverment took action to better their lot they would still be waiting. The initial protest march led to trouble, the introduction of the soldiers lead to the resurgence of the I.R.A., the stupid internment plan led to many young men and women being incarcarated for no other reason except they were catholic and therefore suspect. While in prison they were taught Irish history, taught their own language, and started to see how unionist politicians and consecutive british governments did not give a damn about them. All of a sudden it was desirable to be Irish, it was desirable to speak the language, it was desirable to want a united land, all things that Nationalists wanted to happen for years but with limited success. But it all came about as a direct result of Unionist action British government inaction, and that my friends is the truth.

Slan

Jimmy


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:34 PM

"...please no more tears about the soldiers that were killed in this conflict, they were not without blame."

Shakespeare put it well when he had Hamlet (I think) sau "Use ev'ry man according to hius desert, and who should 'scape whipping."

Every death deserves to be mourned. They were all, and still are, caught up in something out of their individual control, dating back before they were born even.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:47 PM

What an utter load of unmitigated self pity mope and whinging.

Do not mention how people made tea out off their own piss added crushed glass to give to soldiers who at that time were protecting the Catholics, smiling at the unsuspecting soldiers while they gave it to them.

If it wasn't for this or that this would not have happened, and poor people like you were totally innocent, pull the other one.

Remember the old I Ran Away, if anything the IRA prolonged the troubles and idiots like you fooled themselves into thinking they were defending you, tell that to all the Catholic victims of the IRA.

Like the loyalists it is the blind bigoted mope support that kept the Terrorists going, sentimental crap from those without the guts to do something themselves, but encourage the young of the day to put their liberty and lives on the lines. The H block was filled with terrorist who were caught at 15 -16 years of age and the majority of whom would say that they would not take the same path again.

So the poor buggars who took the action paid the cost done the time say that it was the wrong way to go about it. And what do we hear all the above mope.

We can justify ourselves all we want but that is all it is justifying our actions to soothe our conscience and make us feel better for doing wrong.

Total and utter MOPE came about by British inaction don't blame us! Bollocks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

Would it were as simple as that Jimmy: black and white, right and wrong, us and them: then we would all understand and there would be no problem.                                                      

But think about it: indestructable force, immovable object...                                                         

The Anglo-Norman invasion (1169) was important, the Statutes of Kilkenny (1366)were important, the Plantation of Ulster (1609) was very important, 1641 was important(Portadown Orange people today still carry banners depicting that particuar massacre),which, lest you accuse me of bias, I have already pointed out, there have been many atrociies by both sides for centuries - OK a few examples: Protestant massacres of Catholics in 1641 at Islandmagee, Ballydavy (near Bangor), Lisnagarvey (Lisburn) - you want more? Perhaps a few Catholic massacres of Protestants, just for a change?                                 

Cromwell was important, William of Orange was important, 1798 was important, Robert Emmet was important, Young Ireland was important, Dolly's Brae (Protestant massacre of Catholics in 1849)was important, the "Great Fmine" was important, the Fenians were important, the Land League was important, the loyalist Covenant of 1912 was important, the foundation in 1913 of the old UVF was important, 1916 was important. The death of Sean South in 1957 was important, because somebody wrote a very effective song about it...

It's all known as history. And please, none of that stuff about history being written by winners, it's all there for anyone who can be bothered to study it, preferably with an open mind!

However, it's not the real history that is so influential, but the perception of those happenings, by both sides, and the biased and bigoted propaganda, and downright distortion and lies, again by both sides: both simplistically believing that they are "right".               

I would suggest that the vast majority of the contributors to this Thread are all victims, to a greater or lesser extent, of the events, and songs, of Irish history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

We have an inate problem while talking about N.Ireland no one and I mean no one tells the truth.

No one rioted or committed any offence except for defending their street from the Brits that were welcomed in, in the first place. Sure lets skip over why soldiers started getting the bad press they did, in the beginning the first gunman to be killed in N.I. was a loyalist who tied himself to a chimney, he was shot by British soldiers.

It was the people who allowed the IRA to re-emerge, so they could murder the very soldiers they welcomed in and were protecting them. The problems came about because the IRA were killing the very people sent to protect their community. Now this is conscrued as some sort of Unionist beligerance.

In the beginning the protestant and catholic sides were treated the same by the army, until they got stabbed in the back by the very people they came to protect. When the army started defending themselves against the IRA suddenly they are the villian of the peace, just remember the Army brought some peace and stability to N.I. it was the terrorists and their back stabbing supporters that escalated the problems.

Times were changing people were getting disgusted that jobs were advertised on religous basis and working class were just that working class no matter what religion, nothing was done to change that.The most important factor was the civil rights march Ulster people standing side by side it was the terrorist who drove the wedge in not the soldiers.

So don't weep for any terrorist as they got what the back stabbing piece of human crap they were deserved.

Will this crap solve or soothe anything,the mope can be wrote from any perspective and all it does is instill anger and gets us nowhere.

I came to this site with a sincere will to learn more of my "IRISH" side and what I have found is something completely alien to me based on half truths,bigots and those who think they know.

I was warned and did not believe, by a well known trad singer that this is not the true spirit or represents what he knows about the trad music scene. Too republican too bitter something that is only found in the likes of pubs in Boston and N.York, Irishness threw in peoples faces, rather than embracing it's audience,it kills the spirit of the music.

This is what I will do revert to my keep it away from me,want nothing to do with it and will not expose my family to it and what is it, my so called Irish side because it is just as bigoted as the "unionist" part.

Slan


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM

Ireland,

Maybe you should take a leaf out of Big Mick's book and listen a bit more and rant a bit less. By presenting even your devil's advocate points as aggressively as you do, you alienate people and spark off unnecessary aggro, of which there is already more than enough to go round.

Rather than take issue with several points in your last post or others in this thread, I suggest that you and anyone else interested should read one or more of a set of three excellent books by Peter Taylor, a British journalist who has covered Northern Ireland for years, is extremely well-informed and fair-minded and does not allow his narrative of the early years of the last thirty years of conflict to be contaminated by the way things subsequently turned out. The books are companions to a series shown on BBC TV in the last couple of years, and all credit is due to the BBC for showing them.

The titles are "Provos -the IRA & Sinn Féin", "Loyalists" and "Brits", and they're published by Bloomsbury paperbacks. I suggest that anyone interested reads them in that order, which is the order in which they were published. Even if you only read the first, you'll have a far deeper appreciation of the situation than you could get even from having followed events as they unfolded, because the onset of something like peace has encouraged people to open up to Peter Taylor in ways in which they would never have done while they were still fighting. If anyone is interested and can't find them in Amazon or elsewhere, send me a PM and I'll dig out the ISBN references.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 11:10 PM

Re my posting. and with all due respect to all. I did not mean that what happened in the past was not important, it is, but not as important as the present. I know for sure that the I.R.A. did not exist in my own area of North Belfast, and they would not have emerged but for the fact that the people needed protection and did not get it from either the police or the british army.
Ireland talks about people mixing glass with piss and making it look like tea, what a bunch of sheer rubbish and lies. In a war that depends a lot on propoganda, do you not think that something like that would have been used as a PR tool. What a load of crap. Did anyone else ever hear of such a thing. The truth is as I stated, the people welcomed the army only to have their homes invaded and wrecked. That's what turned the people against the army and nothing else, they did not fulfill their mandate and they took sides. That is what happened and I am not some Irishman who get his Irishness in a pub in Boston or New York. I got mine on the New Lodge Road in Belfast. I was born and reared there and lived there exclusively for 26 years. I am not condoning violence at all but there would have been a lot less if the catholics had been protected, they were not. and all the ramblings of obvious anti catholic bigots like Ireland will not change my opinion on that issue. I witnessed the soldiers' behaviour and know too many individuals either killed or scarred for life because of them. An example that is close to my heart concerns a half ton truck of explosives that went out of control and smashed into my parents home, trapping my father and mother inside. It could have exploded at any minute but yet my parents were told to stay inside or they would be shot. If anyone is ever around the New Lodge I'm sure lots of people will tell the same story. My father asked the soldier what would happen if the ammunition was accidently ignited and was told " that's your tough luck Paddy". My parents are both dead now but they were well into their 70's when this occurred, so please Ireland, no more bullshitting lies. The majority of soldiers acted like drunken louts. You know that and I know that so cut the crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:32 AM

Another death in the Loyalist turf war, Roy Green was gunned down last night after leaving The Kimberly Bar, he was an accociate of UDA leader Johnny Adair, watch this space..
And from a letter in to-days Irish News,
"Given the litany of murders carried out by loyalists and the evidence of intelligence PASSED ON TO THEM BY THE SECURITY FORCES, as well as their own intelligence gathering,
one would have expected to hear poliiitical commentators calling for the exclusion of Unionists from the executive.
This has not been the case, we only hear those calls when it is suggested that republicans are involved."
Jimmy excellently summed up. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM

Even an Associate, that bloody Poitin. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:46 AM

The problem of a united Ireland is that all sides - republicans, unionists, the neutral of North and Republic, the British - envisage this as the subsuming of the North's six counties into the southern state.

This is never going to work. What *would* work, and what *will* work is when the North and the Republic join as equal partners, and move gradually into co-operation in a state that subsumes both entities into a shared and new Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Declan
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:28 AM

It is my belief that the EU is the context in which that partnership and unity will be brought about. This will be a unity across the whole continent, including both these islands, freely entered into by the people of the region, exercising their right to self determination through sovereign governments.

While he was still being somewhat rational earlier in the thread, "Ireland" (and I wish you wouldn't use the name of our country to spill out some of the venomous bilge you've spouted since) painted a picture where the EU would somehow become a new empire where the English and the French and the Germans ran things. This would not be an acceptable way for things to go and this is why the various treaties are being negotiated in a way to ensure that all the countries continue to have a say in the way Europe shapes up. We can choose to be the victims of a united Europe or we can make sure our voices are heard so that we become the architects of it.

In the EU context we've already found that the interests of both parts of this island converge on many issues, and that, despite all the horror of what has gone before, there is much more that unites us than divides us. We will also, I believe, in time come to a stage where this is also true of our relationship with the people on the neighbouring island as well. I for one would like to see a pluralist Ireland, srong in its own national identity/identities, being an equal parnter with English, Scots & Welsh, as part of (lets call it) the Western European Island region of the EU.

If we allow our culture and identity to be subsumed into an amorphous EU culture, where the people in the larger states call the shots, then we'll get what we deserve, but I honestly can't see any of us letting that happen. Can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 09:50 AM

To all my point is simple, the crap I wrote in response to JimmyC and his mope is to illustrate that we go nowhere with this.If people bothered to read my post they would have seen I called it crap.

From my 02 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM post.
"Will this crap solve or soothe anything,the mope can be wrote from any perspective and all it does is instill anger and gets us nowhere"

Take JimmyC and his forget all the years argument, forget 1969-1985, all I am concerned about is how a piece of scum fighting for the cause put me in a wheelchair, I was 22 just married .Previous to that I had no interest in a persons religion had relatives from the Shankill, Falls and Twinbrook, who also wanted nothing to do with this mess. But would that not be a bit selfish and self absorbent, only worry about me, they done it first bollocks.

I use the word had, as they eventually drifted apart from the ensuing arguments and finger pointing, the same bullshit JimmyC and others present as an excuse for the boys. Why not take responsibility and get on with life, this bullshit drags up the past in the worst way and gets nowhere.

At least someone may get the point, this gets us nowhere except the dredging up of old wounds, that is not to say what happened to others is to be pushed by the side. And as I said before it is the title of my favourite song, but then why should I explain myself to you. Would you be happy if I used a county spelt in Gaelic? Lets see pick a county opposite to bandit country and all that conjures up. Or is it because I'm protestant I'm not allowed to use my countries name.

The IRA like to call this a war and the IRA leaders have accepted that there are innocent casualties on both sides,I live with that, yes I'm pissed off at times, but I do not use it as an excuse for the continuation of this whole bloody mess and the distortion of truth.

There are no terrorists that I support none, they and their supporters are all scum, no matter what side they are on, they are pure thugs, law breakers, and if they blow each other to kingdom come all the better, I for one will shed no tears.

As for the tea MADE of PISS, not piss made to look like tea, is well documented nothing to do with propaganda. It was part of standing orders that no one was to take any refreshments from the public. Look it up.

I'll reiterate my point,mope is just mope, bringing up the past the way JimmyC did only provokes people and he and others well know that, but still do it. Look where that got us, from reasonable postings to a slanging match. Pretty much how it is like on the streets of N.I. and we know where that leads us to. JimmyC why not tell the whole truth, how the IRA hid behind crowds and took pot shots at the police and army. Sent children with explosives to maime and murder their fellow country men.

The biggest hole in your argument is how you admit to the IRA and put the blame on others for the atrocities the IRA were at the back off. As for your anti-catholic bigot remark,all that does is put you in the bigot category, as you seem happy to point the finger at every one else, mope mope mope.

Armagh your still a bigoted disgrace who care's what the loyalist do as long as they do it to themselves and reduce their numbers, why are you allowing the IRA to re-arm,recruit and train more terrorists.

We have the SDLP who advocate a united Europe saying all this is academic as we are going to ruled from Brussels and all that entails, Ahern put through the NICE treaty so such a scenario may not be all that far off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 10:38 AM

I met a man just outside Kilkeel, we got to talking and he told me how he played flute for some loyalist band, during the 12TH, silly me I took if for granted that he was one of those bigoted prods.

That was until he told me that his own band was part of the Hibernians,Star of Newry, cannot remember the proper title. He told me how members of either band would fill in for each other and were welcomed by all.

Not the N.I. I know, the person was talking about the late 50's -early 60's, were was the so called offence about the bands back then that we hear about today? The man I was talking to lies the blame at the feet of our so called community leaders and the bigots who were allowed to pick up the ball and run with it.

Do not tell me this did not happen as many people have related the same kind of story when I asked about it. A recent BBC program had people talking about the same type of occurrence's.

Who would have thought? the Hibs and OO sharing the same musicians,my Grandmother tells me about the time she was a wee girl, she is 93 now, seeing the Nuns making Union jack flags bunting etc and selling it in the field on the 12th. Who would have thought Catholics would have been allowed in the sacred ground of the OO field?

The problems that have come about were not only instigated from one side otherwise such incidents would not have happened. Scum have been allowed to drive a wedge between us in N.I. and as CB put it someone is gaining enough to keep the mess going.

This is our fault pure and simple, not the British, not the Irish Government, ours, we let the situation spiral out of control from having people from different sides filling in as musicians to having the so called hated CATHOLICS making and selling the symbol of the British oppressors. What a bunch of mopy responsibility ducking hypocrites we ALL are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM

Ireland, do you really expect people to believe that Catholic Nuns sold buntings at the annual 12th July parade, on the field at Finaghy, Will you catch yourself on, surely you are not so naive to believe that. Is this why you believe that the first casualty was a protestant who was tied to a tree and shot by soldiers ?.
The following is taken from the book "Lost LIves" a complete story in chronological sequence from 1966 to 1999. It also notes that the IRA had ended it's border campaign in 1962 due to lack of widespread support from the catholic population.
Terence O'Neill became Prime Minister in 1963 and had promised political reforms. In his efforts to reform the state he moved too slowly for catholics and too quickly for protestants.
In fact the state was ripe for reform. In reality the loyalists panicked at the thought of catholics being treated equally and started to attack catholic homes and businesses. This is where the police should have stepped in to protect catholic areas but they did not. I was there, living off the New Lodge Road and they did nothing to help the people in the Clonard Area of the Falls or in the Duncairn Gardens area of North Belfast. We were on constant alert watching for loyalists gangs from Tigers Bay who had in the past attacked us, especially around the 12th July. Anyway, the police did not show any inclination to help and that is why catholics had to look elsewhere for protection, and the I.R.A. was the only avenue open, especially when the soldiers were just as unwilling or unable to offer the protection as well.


The first casualty attributed to the troubles was a catholic (John Scullion) who died 11th June 1966, shot by a small loyalist gang which called itself the Ulster Volunter Force. He was shot near his home in the Clonard area of the Falls Road. This attack was one of a series of UVF attacks during that period.


The second one to die was also a catholic" Peter Ward" who died on June 26th 1966. The 3rd casualty was a protestant woman "Matilda Gould". She was in fact the first person injured during this spree but did not die until after the deaths of Scullion and Ward. During this time the UVF also carried out petrol bomb attacks on Catholic businesses and properties.
These incidents followed a rise in unionists and Protestant anxieties about the perceived threat posed by republicans in the wake of large-scale ceremonies marking the 1916 anniversary
Here are snippets from the B.B.C. news, taken from documents that have been closed to the public for the past 30 years.


According to British papers released under the 30-year-rule, former Prime Minister Sir Edward Heath was warned days before the fatal Bloody Sunday march in Londonderry that soldiers being sent to the city had already "over-reacted" at civil rights protests.

You may wish to question the Secretary of State for Defence about recent suggestions in the press and on television that the army over-reacted against some of the civil rights demonstrations last weekend

The papers also reveal the former prime minister's most senior official asked him whether or not he was prepared for the consequences of action by the military against protesters in Northern Ireland.

Sir Edward told the judge investigating how the Parachute Regiment shot dead 13 people at the march that he should not forget the UK was fighting a "propaganda war".

Much of this material has already been given in statements to the Bloody Sunday inquiry.

Sir Edward, 86, was expected to give evidence to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry before taking ill late last year.

Briefings before march

The papers confirm that four days before the march, Sir Edward received a security briefing on the march, organised to protest against internment, a form of imprisonment without trial introduced at the height of the political and civil crisis.

PM's papers: Include republican newspaper
In his memo to the prime minister, Cabinet secretary Sir Burke Trend, the most senior civil servant, recommended Mr Heath review the activities of the Parachute Regiment which was being moved to Derry as part of the operation.

"You may wish to question the Secretary of State for Defence about recent suggestions in the press and on television that the army over-reacted against some of the civil rights demonstrations last weekend," wrote Sir Burke.

"And that, in particular, soldiers of the Parachute Regiment, by being unnecessarily rough, have gratuitously provoked resentment among peaceful elements of the Roman Catholic population."

Military strategy for the day was being set by a special committee of key departments including the Ministry of Defence and Home Office.

Sir Burke warned Sir Edward there was a "graver issue of the attitude to be adopted by the security forces" in the face of continued civil disobedience.

"Are we able - and prepared to deal with that situation?" he asked.

"Perhaps the question should be explored urgently with [Northern Ireland prime minister] Mr Faulkner during his visit to London."

The conclusion of that military strategy committee and Sir Edward's expected meeting with Brian Faulkner are not in the papers released this January.

Public statement plan

According to the papers, officials drafted a public statement for Mr Faulkner which underlined the illegality of the march in order "to prepare public opinion here and in Northern Ireland for violence scenes on TV following the march".

"Experience this year has shown that attempted marches often end in violence that must have been foreseen by the organisers," said Sir Burke in a further memo.

"Clearly responsibility for this violence and the consequences of it must rest fairly and squarely on the shoulders of those who encourage people to break the law."

Minutes of the conversation with Lord Widgery
Following the deaths, the government appointed Lord Widgery, Chief Justice of England, to lead the inquiry.

Sir Edward met Lord Widgery at Downing Street immediately after his appointment was announced to parliament.

According to the minutes, Sir Edward told the judge that a public inquiry was "not realistic" for security reasons.

"It had to be remembered that we were in Northern Ireland fighting not only a military war but a propaganda war," Sir Edward told Lord Widgery.

The minutes reveal Lord Widgery told the prime minister the inquiry would be a "fact finding" exercise but give no other details of his reaction.

On 7 February 1972, a letter from Downing Street to Defence officials reveals Sir Edward feared the Parachute Regiment would face a propaganda onslaught from critics if Lord Widgery did not take soldiers' evidence first.

"There might be a lot to be said for the Army to be given an opportunity to set out its own facts early on," said the letter. "The Prime Minister would be grateful if urgent consideration could be given to this point."

Family's demands

Families of those killed at the march have long demanded to know how much Sir Edward Heath knew of the Army's planned tactics for the day.

One family recently withdrew an allegation that the government had suppressed documents relating to the former prime minister.

Martin Dillon, a writer on Northern Ireland, recently gave a statement to the inquiry saying the then head of the Army, General Sir Michael Carver was told by Sir Edward Heath that it was legal to shoot protesters in certain situations.
If anyone is interested in more, go to the B.B.C. Headlines on the Internet, click on N.Ireland. You may also be interested in a video clip, which can be opened by clicking on the right hand side of the page. The video shows Soldiers in Derry preventing the march. It also shows some youths throwning stones at the soldiers and it shows the soldiers opening fire on the crowd. It is a bit jumpy but clearly show some anti-riot smoke between the soldiers and the crowd, yet the soldiers are randomly firing through the smoke screen at he people.


I ask once again, what were the nationalist community expected to do ?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:30 PM

"Is this why you believe that the first casualty was a protestant who was tied to a tree and shot by soldiers ?."

Now your taking the piss Jimmy, who mentioned anyone being tied to trees? Your just a mope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:39 PM

When the many varients of the Nationalist terrorists, and the equally numerous varients of the Loyalist terrorists submit thier activities to the scrutiny of an independant tribunal the previous posts may have some validity.

But until then I regret that abuse, and myth will be part of the problem, not the solution.

What a pity it is that the money the British taxpayer has spent over the years on security and peace keeping on Ulster was not spent on more constructive matters such as providing employment and economic developement.

Oh Yes and it might have saved a few lives as well.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

God save Ireland, the poor craters crakin` up.
Still you can get an insight into Protestant bigotry while he rants away here.
By the way Ireland me boy, what is this united Ireland organisation you belong to, please let us know so we all can join. Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 01:59 PM

If JimmyC had bothered to take his blinkers off he would have realised that I was saying that the first attacks on the British Army when they were put on the streers of N.I. was not from the IRA or any Nat/rep group but from the so called loyalist crowd.

Your in the victim culture Jimmy time to get out of it and stop moping.

What deginerated this thread was some asshole saying "One more thing, please no more tears about the soldiers that were killed in this conflict, they were not without blame."

I put his words into a loyalist perspective and he and others did not like it,only two people have shown that they want to discuss rationally and fairly. We can talk about N.I. using all the mope we want but that is all it is peddleing the same old mope.

JimmyC knows it all is the great oracle, every one even those from his own religion are liars, I'll leave you to it and his bigoted ignorance. Time will tell if we manage to get any peace with such mopey self pity and absolutely no acceptance of responsibility for anything attitude displayed by JimmyC and his protestant counter parts.

My answer to you Jimmy is simple, all the nationalists had to do was stay within the law. Your mope and acceptance was responsiblr for the murder of 3000 people and your remarks offend me on the grounds that the only answer you give was to support and excuse unlawful violence.

To sit back and represent yourself as the victim with no choice, how come you and the ilk who support any terrorist could not figure out that every action there is a reaction. The IRA done nothing but escalate the problem. That goes for all the terrorist groups.

The UDA came in as a response to the IRA, the INLA threw their hat in the ring, in came UVF, the LVF and the rest of the crowd, and what do you mope about, what was the nationalists to do? Certainly not spawn and support one of the worlds worst terrorists organisation and give others the excuse to join in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

Ard I came here with no dishonesty, declare what I was and how I feel about terrorists, the fact that I have no time for terrorist on any level seems to confuse you. I'm a prod therefore I'm privy and answerable for all the loyalist bullshit just like you are to all the secrete goings on in the IRA or any other rep/nat murder group.

The united Ireland organisation I belong to is the one that has no time for excuse makers and terrorist sympathisers.I recognise that people have been wronged and done wrong, how is that going to change, more killing. This time we will not have the British to mope about, like we ever had.

There is one difference though,in the 70's when I was subjected to the UDA blocking off my housing estate and preventing me going where I want to, I realised that terrorists no matter what cause/excuse they cloak themselves with are only acting in their own interest.

I will not let myself down by excusing terrorists with the mope that they are protecting us from the bogey man, now they have become the bogey man and who is protecting us from them.

We have been duped so the terrorists godfathers can swan about in the latest model of whatever luxury car,or build multi thousand euro homes, paid using money taken from those they are saying they protect. And people like you and JimmyC hold such ilk up as heroes.

Gareth was right the money wasted on the security and peace keeping could have been used for us all, as it is, the only people to prosper was the terrorist, while those they protect and prey on live in fear of their protectors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 02:58 PM

What else could they do Jimmy?
Who knows, but consider the other Civil Rights movement of the 60s/70s.
They held peaceful demos and were attacked by hostile crowds. They did not respond by bombing malls across the USA.
Soldiery sent to restore order often behaved cruelly and disgracefully to them. They did not make every US soldier, on duty or with his family or even overseas, a legitimate target for a bullet in the back.
Both movements achieved their aims because history had moved on.
Are you sure that the bombings and shootings really hastened reform?
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:00 PM

Ireland, Read my post. The UVF were active in 1966 at least 2 to 3 years before the I.R.A. starting getting recruits. Do you really believe that the catholics areas were in no danger in those days ?. Do you really believe that catholics got a fair shake when it came to jobs ? and or housing ?. If so then why were the reforms that O'Neill wanted to introduce necessary. If the catholics were treated as equals how come the protestant prime minister thought it necessary to reform the state ?. You said that all the nationalist had to do was stay within the law ?. what f.....g law. A law that allowed for people to be arrested and jailed without charge ?. A law that permitted orangemen to march spouting anti-catholic rhetoric almost at will year in and year out. A system that permitted discrimination in nearly all facets of the workplace. If you really believe the nationalist population had no cause for protest then you must have lived in N.Ireland with blinkers on.
You know I really feel sorry for loyalists, they were all given the gift of life and many of them wasted this gift by being consumed with bigotry and hatred for their catholic countrymen, what a waste. Could you imagine spending 24 hours a day, every day of your life hating people because of what they represented , a possible reunification of the country, what a sad bunch, their whole life spent in despair, knowing what the future held. Being taught from childhood to be anti-catholic. I have even heard protestants say that the Cardinal of Ireland automatically becomes head of the I.R.A. upon his appointment. Nationalists on the other hand enjoyed many years of hope, also knowing what the future had in store.

Sorry Ireland, your viewpoint just augmments what the catholics faced and you are by no means the worst I am sure, I feel you have been misguided. Please read the B.B.C. report, especially the part where Edward Heath stated that it was OK to shoot protesters in certain circumstances. I'm sure the Afro-americans are glad the Mississippi law did not mirror Heath's view.

BTW I was the one who said no more tears for the soldiers who were killed. It was unfortunate (I also said that), but they joined the army,they were not forced into it - they put on the uniform. they accepted the pay and the risks.
Just like cigarette smokers - they know the risks and if they smoke and develop cancer, who is to blame ?.
You did correctly state that every action had a reaction or words to that affect. It just stands to reason then that if soldiers are given guns and are trained to use guns, they should expect some people to shoot back. They knew the risks and some unfortunately paid the price.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:05 PM

The British soldiers of the 70s did not expect to be sent to N.I.
Their job was to stand alongside their US counterparts facing the might of the Warsaw Pact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM

"You know I really feel sorry for loyalists, they were all given the gift of life and many of them wasted this gift by being consumed with bigotry and hatred for their catholic countrymen, what a waste."

Pot and black are two words that come to mind, hypocritical mope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:56 PM

Fiolar,you started this shit: have you left the country!


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM

So I am accused of holding up the IRA as heroes, have a good look at ALL my posts and point out to me the post I have written this.
Ireland I am surprised you have the neck to describe yourself as a UDR man, I was given the boot treatment by your Orange friends in the UDR, along with many other innocent Catholic in this fag-end of the british empire.
Have you had your home pulled apart by the so-called security forces, simply because along with thousands of other people we had the misfortune to live in an Nationalist district.
Your post to this Site give the lie to what you purport to be, as I pointed out before, the fact that only Nationalists were interned during the early 70s gave you the excuse to condone their torture.
Never once have I seen you contribute to a music thread, this is an ideal place to spit out your anti-nationalist viewpoint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:06 PM

Now, who was it moved the protestants out of West Cork after 1922?Don't think the British government can have had much of a hand in that. There's some very wise words words earlier in this thread from James Connolly, which I wish some of the more bigoted supporters of his position would have a read at.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST,Cuchullain
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 06:10 PM

Yet again a thread started about Northern Ireland. Yet again people who should know better get dragged into trading wearying flame wars with other Northern Irish people. When some dunkle like Fiolar starts such a thread - knowing full well that it will kick off a full-scale shit-slinging episode - those of us from the sick counties ought not to get drawn in. By the way ... have you noticed how he starts this shit and then fucks off? I think we ought to keep this shit to ourselves and not allow sanctimonious Home Counties know-it-alls to get their oars in.

I know that there are some who find riding this out very dificult. But this slanging match is completely sterile and I'll bet there's loads of yanks and brits laughing their bollocks off at us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 03 Jan 03 - 07:37 PM

Why Ard,here's me the bigoted prod thinking just because your a nationalist you must know what the IRA are doing, shame on me.

Your friends in the IRA put more than the boot into me,but guess what,I do not think for one minute to associate you with that or to try to proportion some of the blame to you, it is bigots like you who try this.

Your slabbering at me about a time when I was 9 years of age, I knew nothing about internment was not asked or consulted, but then what could I have done? Excuse or condone it?

With people like you heaping the sins of the past on those who knew nothing of achieves one thing only, it keeps the mess going, get over it and stop using others peoples experiences to justify your own bigotry.


The catholic Church has been condemned by all people at one time or another, but the cry comes when it is from a prod from N.I., how insecure is that? How bigoted is it to assume oh he's a prod he must be a bigot. Mope mope mope from the bandit country, Ard can hand it out but can't take it back, mope mope mope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 01:05 AM

Keith, I can see your point about the soldiers of course. However the difference is that they did not act with the full knowledge and support of the central government, the way the soldiers in N.Ireland did. Things happened in South Armagh that could be construed as bordering on war crimes. As far as reforms are concerned there have been no such things as reforms for catholics in N.Ireland. As far as the loyalists are concerned they are called concessions. Not rights. concessions, therein lies a big part of the problem. Equal opportunity for employment is seen as a concession.   Every change to the status quo no matter how minor or major is seen as giving in to catholics. When these bigots shout "Not an inch" they really mean it. What a sad unhappy people they are.br>

Ireland, I am not bigoted against protestants, I am anti-unionists, I am pro-catholic, I am pro - Irish and Pro -Civil Rights for all. I have protestant aunts and a protestant son-in-law( from Belfast) and soon will have a protestant grandchild. You may notice in one of my earlier replies that I mentioned working class protestants being sold a bill of goods, being equally duped by unionism and the orange order, my sympathies are with them as well. So just keep shouting your mouth off, you are helping me win the argument. All we ever wanted was equal treatment and it has been denied to a large portion of the population for too long, and the government in Westminster stood by and did nothing about it. That is a fact. The same government that would shout louder than most if this situation existed anywhere else in the world. they stood by, said nothing and did nothing, all for a few measly unionists votes. Again, here we are talking (arguing) about something political and you bring up the catholic church, that is another part of the problem, what has the church got to do with the behaviour of soldiers, some of whom I am sure were catholics themselves.. A lot of these soldiers joined the army looking for action and excitement, well they got it and some got more than they bargained for.

And one more thing, please get yourself a thesaurus, I am sure you will be able to find alternate words for mope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:00 AM

I keep on reading these posts, and that there was a 'war' in Northern Ireland.

I can't remeber the British Government going to war with Northern Ireland.
or even declareing war with it's own people.
So how can there be a war.
Was the Republican terroists at war with the british government or were they fighting the loyalist terrorists.
in other words it was the different groups of terrorists on both side that were fighting.
in war it's the country's government that declares war on another country.
inoccent men, women and children were murdered by so call British people, because after all Northern Ireland is apart of Britain wither you like it or not.

until the IRA decide to disband and also the the other terrorist groups disband as well on both side then and only then will you have peace in Northern Ireland.
And when will Sein Fein IRA cut themselves from the IRA, they still haven't done that yet.

I might be talking rubbish I don't know however this is my opinon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 04:54 AM

I agree with Guest,

I can't rermeber when the British governemt sent in the bombers or other fighter planes, or even sending in warships to fight the people of Northern Ireland, and yet the certain Protestants and Catholics who never really represanted the people of Northern Ireland said that there was a war.

What War?
a war to me means that the armed forces of one country fights the armed forces of another country, that's war.

Not going round killing inoccent people of that country and then claim that those people (Men women and CHILDREN) were members of a terrorist group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 07:24 AM

JimmyC it is all mope, why fix it if it's not broke, mope describes all the bullshit perfectly, even mine.

Get out of the victim culture and give yourself a break, mope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 07:46 AM

No matter what side we take on N.I. guest, there are some truths we cannot deny, JimmyC has described what happened to his family and friends which is real not made up. We on both sides have ripped eachother apart, and that cannot be denied or made little off.

My argument is simple their were no innocents in this none, from the beginning to the end we all have to share our responsibility, from those who were terrorists to those who gave them reason to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:47 AM

I am not qualified to comment on most of this, but several observations can be made by the likes of myself safely.

First, I want to say well done to Jimmy for his observations about the working class Protestants and the Catholics having much more in common than apart. I have been organizing Unions for over 25 years. I have been studying the history of the land of my people for my whole life. The union activities have taught me one thing as an absolute. When one sees a sectarian divide..........track the money and you will see the real root of it all. Our cousins on the Protestant divide have been used as a tool to play the Orange card by the industrialists to maintain the status quo. This status quo was begun by the English centuries ago and it has taken on a life of its own. There have been various times in the history of the troubles when working class Protestants and Catholics started to band together for mutual benefit, and low and behold, the Orange card got played, and the money managed to split them again. Now that the money is starting to see that there is more profit to be gained by a unified "Celtic Tiger", all we are left with is the victims of this 300 year old policy spouting the rhetoric that they have learned over generations. This is not a situation peculiar to Ireland. It has happened in the US with the African descended peoples and the Irish descendants. It has also happened in the steel towns with the various Eastern Europeans. It happened in England, as well. It is always about the rights of capital as opposed to the rights of people.

There is no sense trying to mitigate guilt. The defenders of English policy in Ireland always do this. They continually try to use the actions of the victims to justify the system they created. Of course there are IRA men who commit acts of terror. Victims of oppression committed by forces with overwhelming numbers and weapons always turn to this tactic. What else do they do? I am not saying that it is OK, but one must never deny the root of this. All that has happened has been a response to the genesis of this. That genesis lies in the intent of the English monarchy and government to make Ireland a part of the Empire. They used this to justify plantation, starvation, and colonialism. They used it to justify their attempt to kill the native tongue, the religion, to take property, and ultimately to try and partition a part of the country from its people.

And what does it come down to now? It seems, in the opinion of one of one of your American cousins who loves the land and its people, that it is time to take these memories, couple them with an understanding of intent, and move forward. The time for guns is over. The time for ancient hatreds has passed. Use the lessons to craft a future. Never forget the past..lest you repeat it. But stop this old load of shite that attempts to divide folks. Recognize that moneyed interests sold you that. Recognize that you are all Irish........and move ahead.........if not for you, then for the weans.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:31 AM

And we ignore History to make some feel better. The defenders of English policy can be one of the two sides in this case.

Big Mick explain how the English King James 2, had his policy defended by the Irish that followed him. Do that and your post may have some credance.

Expalin how the head of the Catholic faith supported King William, and celebrated with his defeat of James 2.

While you are at find out why the orange order came about,and what was it in response to. Just like people claim the IRA was in response to the British etc, the orange order was in response to the attempted ethnic cleansing of protestants in the County of Armagh.

Where does this bullshit stop? Only when we all admit our failings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:32 AM

Most Irish Catholics suported James II simply because he was a Catholic: the Williamite Wars were not about Irish indpendence but about the religion of the Monarch. Independence was never an issue until 1798. If James had won at Boyne, Augrhrim and Limerick, Ireland would have had a British Catholic king, rather than a Protestant one, but it would still have been part of the United Kingdom.

The position of NI is very simple: nothing to do with the EU or captalism or social class, or economics: because of their differing cultures and religions most Catholics want a united Ireland and most Protestants don't. The question is what to do about it? Hammer out a political accommodation (like the Good Friday Argreement) or resort to violence, in the process handing over power to ruthless gangsters on both sides and setting back even further the very fabric of society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 01:19 PM

What would the cost to European stability have been if James 2 won? What would the actual cost to the Irish people have been if James 2 had won?

France supported James for political reasons off their own using the Irish. If James succeeded it would have been more detrimental for the Catholic Church, the Pope knew that and supported William. If not what was he doing supporting the so called protestant side?

We have allowed this to escalate into the mess it is, our ignorance. Would we have any trouble if James had won? Too simplistic.

James 2 was going to give his Irish supporters a right Royal screwing, the very people who were fighting to keep him on the throne. He was planning to remove Irish people who were in charge and replace them with his own. In short he was going to totally decimate the Irish, read up on it and ask what some of our ancestors were thinking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM

It would be nice if people on both sides of this argument could find a little common ground in the rather obvious principle (we're all democrats now) that nobody has to want to live in a unified Ireland, or to live in a divided Ireland. These are both perfectly legitimate points of view, and getting heated up because other people have a different view of how they'd like the government to be organised doesnt get you very far. The island of Ireland never has a had a unified independent government. Some think it should. Some think it shouldnt. Sort it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 02:36 PM

Come to think of it Greg, you're right: Ireland (with a capital "I")has never been united, gaelic and free. Prior to the Anglo-Norman invasion it was divided into local, quite mutually antagonistic rival kingdoms, after that it was ruled by the English - British until 1922, when it was divided.

This is of course a brief summary.

However it gets us no nearer to a modern day solution, which has to come from the people of NI themselves, tho that doesn't stop people in the home counties, America, etc having views on the matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 02:53 PM

Sorry Stephen, I'll do it in the morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 03:38 PM

Probably James II's biggest mistake was fathering a child at the age of 55, by his second wife Mary of Modena. In the order of ascendancy to the throne (of the UK of GB and Ireland) this knocked back into second place James' Protestant daughter, Mary, who just happened to be married to William of Orange, and about 30 years older too. So, it looked like the throne would revert to catholicism (those Scottish Stewarts). The baby prince born in 1688 became the grandfather of "Bonnie Prince Charlie", leader of the final Jacobite (James) revolt in Scotland: Culloden, you know.                              

[A bonus for Mudcatters here: the nursery rhyme "Rock a Bye Baby" arose from this birth, which hadn't been witnessed: a changeling? Very political and therefore very suspicious. After that all royal births has to be officially witnessed].

So William of Orange was invited to the throne. He invaded, (the "Protestant wind" of "Lilliburlero" fame helped), he fought the wars, bravely and with some integrity as it happened - he was no Cromwell, in Ireland, he won, and the rest is history, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 10:42 AM

Sorry, James II was Bonnie Prince Charlie's grandfather, the baby born in 1688 was his father.

James II, 1633-1701

James Edward Stuart, 1688 - 1766 (the "Old Pretender")

Charles Edward Stuart, 1720-88 ( the "Young Pretender", Bonnie Prince Charlie).

The Catholic Church withdrew support for the Stuart dynasty in 1766.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:39 PM

Sorry not to have responded sooner ireland (but glad to have given this thread a wide berth for a while). I didn't understand most of what you were addressing to me, except that you seem to think I regard "republican" and "terrorist" as the same, which I don't.

Jimmy, you're spot on with that little bit of history that you do choose to acknowledge. Especially regrettable is that there was never a police force the catholic community could trust. But as on an earlier occasion, you're too glib by far on why the fraternising between Brits and catholics turned into open hostility. The people who did most to bring that about were the Provos, or simply IRA, as they were then.

I agree that ireland is being a bit fanciful when it comes to tea made with powdered glass, etc. On the other hand, I actually saw paratroopers piss on kids' beds during reprisal house-searches after one of their number had been shot, and if if anyone had spiked the squaddies' tea that night, I wouldn't have minded at all.

I was rarely much concerned about the deaths of active combatants, whether soldiers or nationalist/loyalist activists. The real waste was the hundreds upon hundreds of innocent lives wasted or destroyed for absolutely no reason whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:47 PM

I should just add that I go along with everything An Pluiméir Ceolmhar said about Peter Taylor and his books/TV features. The guy's really done his homework, had access to all the significant players on both sides, and come up with what must be the most balanced reporting on Northern Ireland in the past 35 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:01 AM

Fionn, some good posts. As one who was with the British Army (though I never served in Northern Ireland), I did hear even more horror stories about some units. One battalion sent patrols at night around a strongly republican area to kill all the stray dogs, and those left to wander about yards or gardens as guard dogs; they used poisoned bait, a powerful air-rifle or on occasions a pickaxe handle.

Why would they do such a revolting thing ? Well, some of the owners of these dogs would allegedly beat them with an iron bar smeared with some substance used by soldiers; cam-cream or rifle oil, and then turn them loose. As a result these dogs would go beserk whenever soldiers approached, and would attack them if they got the chance. Household pets they were not.

While I cannot defend every action of the Army, on balance I would claim that the number of genuinely innocent civilians killed by the army in the years since 1969 through atrocity, misconduct, negligence or unavoidable error would be scarcely 100 (out of a total death toll of perhaps 3000). This is especially low considering that some units like to foster a tough superman image of themselves (e.g. the Paras), or are recruited from strongly sectarian areas themselves (e.g. some Highland units, which are or were recruited mainly from Protestant areas of Glasgow).


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Subject: RE: BS: Protestant State!
From: Ireland
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

What an absolute load of toss,first the tea issue is fact, but then it is so easily to accept that the British Army can urinate on beds but no such acts came from the community. Utter nonsense, I'm not saying one side was better or worse than the other, what I am saying is that both sides were up to their work. Fionn why was there standing orders forbiding the taking of refreshments from the civilian population? Can you answer that?

Smearing dogs with cam cream, bollocks, that would have left the dog's attacking any person who wore foundation cream,its main constituents are found in cam cream. Gun oil, lord help the person who wanders by with the local IRA weapons, or do they use different oil?

If the example of brutality that pet owners carried out on their pets is true, them it is plausible for these animals to be put down. Who where the Green Jackets, were they recruited from staunchly bigoted areas? HuwG go educate yourself on the units deployed in N.I. as for someone who was in the army I would have thought that you would know N.I. was not the most sought after post.

Lets look at your police issue Fionn, how come there were many Catholics in the RIC pre partition? What changed the numbers and prevented them from joining the RUC? Would the threat from the IRA be a clue ?

"I was rarely much concerned about the deaths of active combatants, whether soldiers or nationalist/loyalist activists. The real waste was the hundreds upon hundreds of innocent lives wasted or destroyed for absolutely no reason whatsoever. "

Your a disgrace Fionn your above quote is absolutely disgusting, the soldiers that died here have the right to be concerned about as anyone else. You demean the sacrifice of those who died trying to save lives on both sides. What about the sgt who threw himself on a grenade threw onto a bus with children, he gave his life, perhaps thats more fanciful fact, eh Fion?

There were atrocities on both sides we are not going to get anywhere denying that or making excuses for it. How many families who had loved ones murdered called for no retaliation, only to have others take their indignation on themselves and go out and murder another innocent person. And who gets the blame? Not the murderers that's for sure. Both sides allow the scum of terrorism take it upon themselves to carry out a measured response. By our acceptance of them and our excuse making for terrorists we give them the mandate to carryout such acts. But the Fionn looking at it how it is is fanciful.


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