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Lyr Req: The Rights of Man

Zorro 29 Jun 98 - 04:30 PM
Susan of DT 29 Jun 98 - 04:41 PM
bigj 29 Jun 98 - 05:14 PM
Martin Ryan. 29 Jun 98 - 05:32 PM
Mick Lowe 29 Jun 98 - 05:47 PM
Margo 28 May 01 - 02:11 AM
CRANKY YANKEE 28 May 01 - 02:56 AM
Amergin 28 May 01 - 03:05 AM
Mooh 28 May 01 - 09:03 AM
Jon Freeman 28 May 01 - 09:39 AM
Jon Freeman 28 May 01 - 09:55 AM
Noreen 28 May 01 - 10:00 AM
Margo 28 May 01 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 28 May 01 - 11:56 AM
Jeri 28 May 01 - 12:07 PM
Jeri 28 May 01 - 12:12 PM
Uncle_DaveO 28 May 01 - 12:27 PM
Amos 28 May 01 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 28 May 01 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 28 May 01 - 04:50 PM
Lin in Kansas 28 May 01 - 08:32 PM
Margo 28 May 01 - 09:53 PM
Jeri 28 May 01 - 10:28 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 29 May 01 - 04:27 AM
Malcolm Douglas 29 May 01 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 29 May 01 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 29 May 01 - 08:53 AM
Margo 29 May 01 - 10:24 AM
MartinRyan 29 May 01 - 11:11 AM
Noreen 29 May 01 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Philippa 29 May 01 - 07:06 PM
MartinRyan 30 May 01 - 06:01 AM
GUEST 14 Mar 17 - 04:14 PM
Jim Dixon 15 Mar 17 - 09:23 PM
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Subject: The rites of man.
From: Zorro
Date: 29 Jun 98 - 04:30 PM

A friend in Corpus Christi Texas wants information on the origin, history, words,... any and all information on a piece called The rites of man.. Anybody???


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Susan of DT
Date: 29 Jun 98 - 04:41 PM

The Rights of Man
usually just an instrumental, rather than a song


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: bigj
Date: 29 Jun 98 - 05:14 PM

See Frank Harte's brand new cd 'Songs of '98. There's a version there, so I'm told, although I don't have a copy of the CD.


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 29 Jun 98 - 05:32 PM

It's on Frank's CD alright - attributed to one John Sheil, who died in Drogheda in Ireland in 1872.

If Frank doesn't post it himslf, I'll do it when I get backform holidays!

Regards


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 29 Jun 98 - 05:47 PM

You can also find it on the Chieftan's album - "Bonaparte's Retreat". If you need a copy of the sheet music mail me at irish@prof.co.uk

Mick


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Margo
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:11 AM

I'm looking for a bit more history on this too, if anyone can find it. I've searched and found that it was written to honor Thomas Paine, but I have never heard any reference to the writer or any other history. Anyone?

Margo


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 28 May 01 - 02:56 AM

The "Rights of Man" was the name of the Merchant ship that "Billy Bud" was impressed off of" Properly entitled, The "Rights of Man" Hornpipe, it is indeed a terrific instrumental piece. I do it on guitar and 5-sring Banjo. I don't know if there are any words to it. If there are, Would someone post them? Please.

The short story , "Billy Bud" and the movie with Peter Ustinoff as the Captain, and Robert Ryan as the Chief Master at Arms were a couple of terrific pieces of art. In my opinion that is.

Jody Gibson


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Amergin
Date: 28 May 01 - 03:05 AM

Cranky, I agree with you there...both were just wonderful pieces of work....


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Mooh
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:03 AM

I love The Rights Of Man! It appears in several good compilations of folk tunes, though I've never seen words for it. It's in the Fiddler's Fake Book and elsewhere.

Mooh.


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:39 AM

I'm confused here. Is it "Rights" or "Rites" and what are these words in the DT?

Jon


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:55 AM

I don't know if this is any use but a Google searh for the Rights Of Man by James Connoly (as credited in the DT) has yeilded this page.

Jon


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Noreen
Date: 28 May 01 - 10:00 AM

Hmmm... the words in the DT were posted by FH (presumably Frank Harte) in April 97, i.e. before this thread was started, and attributed by him to James Connoly (not John Sheil, as Martin Ryan says above). I think this must be the song that all are referring to.

A different piece entirely is the hornpipe called the Rights of Man, which you and I play, Jon, and as far as I know has no words. The title of both will refer to Tom Paine, but I imagine that is the only connection.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Margo
Date: 28 May 01 - 10:57 AM

Jon, what a very odd page! He does refer to "The Rights of Man" as a doctrine, but never mentions Thomas Paine. But he is obviously anti-capitalism....

I was hoping to uncover the writer and the circumstances of the writing of the song. Longshot, I know.

Hey Yankee! I forgot about the name of the ship in Billy Bud. I cried like a baby at the end of that film.... Margo


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 28 May 01 - 11:56 AM

Noreen,

I doubt if that '97 FH was Frank Harte. I have a feeling we chased this one down in detail before? Can't find it, though. I'm sure the Shiel reference is correct.

Regards


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:07 PM

Regarding the tune, not the song.

In this thread in rec.music.celtic.

Also, in this thread, Larry Mallette writes:

"The concensus (posts from three knowledgable members) is that the tune was written by the famous Northumbrian/lowlands fiddler and composer James Hill sometime around the turn of the century.

It was included in Roche's volume two from 1912 and in O'Neill's Dance Music of Ireland, from around the same time, but not in O'Neill's original Music of Ireland (I think from 1902). Thus, it would seem to have "entered the tradition" in the first decade of this century. Phillipe Varlet says it was also incorporated in at least one big Scots collection from around the turn of the century and that it was first recorded in 1909 (forgot by whom, and my recent computer crash lost his post for me), and a few years later by John Kimmel, the German accordian player who amazed everyone in the 20s by playing/recording Irish tunes with unbelievable technique/facility - recorded in NY as I recall."

(Anybody want to guess who the thread starter, "jerico@nonet.att.co.kr" was? ;-)


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:12 PM

And from a post in the first blicky, by a fellow named Ormonde Waters:
If it's the song that starts "I speak with wonder, one night in slumber, my thoughts did wander near to Athlone. The centre station of this Irish nation, a congregation unto me was shown..." It was written around 1798 by James Porter who was a dissenting clergyman from Greyabbey in Co. Down (and incidentally my maternal great-great-great-great-great grandfather - there might be an extra great in there - I never can remember). He was hanged in 1798 basically for writing satire against Lord Londonderry. In one of bizarre twists of life, after he been hanged for standing up for human rights, two of his sons subsequently emigrated to the states where at least one of them ended up owning a plantation which was worked by slave labour.


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:27 PM

Margo, Tom Paine was the author of Common Sense, the book that more than any other helped make the American Revolution a success. Also a book called "The Rights of Man".

It is arguable that without Common Sense the revolution may have failed. It begins, "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country, but he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of man and woman." Tradition says that Tom Paine wrote it at night in camp, using a drumhead as his desk. The book was immediately and wildly popular, and set the public's mind alight with revolutionary fervor. The Continental Congress voted him a large land grant in thanks for his services to the revolution, but after the war was over conservative forces effectively prevented him from receiving his reward.

Bitter, he moved to France and tried to serve a similar function with the French revolution. His "big" book at that time was The Rights of Man", was not nearly as well-received by the French, but is philosophically broader and meatier than Common Sense. Perhaps because of his outspoken atheism, his books have at times been suppressed--especially in England, because much of what he said in The Rights of Man clearly had England as a revolutionary target.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 01 - 12:45 PM

As for the Rites of Man, why that's another study altogether, and although partial work has been done on the margins by people such as Margaret Mead, I sure there's a whale of a book still in it somewhere!

A


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:44 PM

Jeri

You had me worried for a second with that quote re Porter as the author of the song, as I was confident of the Shiel attribution. So I checked...
Terry Moylan, in his excellent "The Age fo Revolution in the Irish Song Tradition", says this:

" This song by the Drogheda weaver Richard Shiel (1800-1860)is taken from a broadside printed by Brereton's of Dublin c. 1830s. It was almost certainly inspired by the "Genius of Ireland" passage in Rev. James Porter's Billy Brand and Squire Firebrand published in the Northern Star in August 1796."

Regards

p.s. Incidentally, he also states that it was Frank Harte who set it to the air of Anach Chuan, which is the only version I've heard.


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 28 May 01 - 04:50 PM

Mind youyi, Shiel's dates seem a bit elastic!

Regards


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 28 May 01 - 08:32 PM

Hey, all--RIGHTS OF MAN is #2932 on the "Tune Wanted" list for Mudcat. Does anyone have music in ABC, MIDI, or NWC (or a scan of sheet music will work, too) for the lyrics from the DT as mentioned by Jon Freeman above?

If you do, send 'it on to MMario to add to the DT (only some 2,000+ to go).

Lin


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Margo
Date: 28 May 01 - 09:53 PM

OK Martin, excuse my ignorance but I don't understand the above paragraph:

" This song by the Drogheda weaver Richard Shiel (1800-1860)is taken from a broadside (from a broadside? You mean someone had already written it put it in print?) printed by Brereton's of Dublin c. 1830s. It was almost certainly inspired by the "Genius of Ireland" passage in Rev. James Porter's Billy Brand and Squire Firebrand (being what, a story? a political writing? or what?) published in the Northern Star (a newspaper? or what?)in August 1796."

I'm sorry I don't know how to interpret what I'm reading... your help is appreciated. Margo


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 01 - 10:28 PM

Thanks Martin. I just read what I posted above on a newsgroup, and it was different from what you posted. I should have known I wasn't supplying anything new and you already had the right answer. (A compliment - you're a font of knowledge and I appreciate your willingness to share.)


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 May 01 - 04:27 AM

Margo

Sorry if it seemed obscure! I reckon it comes down to this:

1. The Northern Star was a newspaper.
2. The Rev. published something - not sure what, but my guess is a politial story/satire. I'll check.
3. Shiel adaped it into the song as now known.
4. Brereton (a well known publisher of ballads)printed a version.
5. That's where Frank Harte and/or Terry Moylan saw it!

Regards


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 May 01 - 07:47 AM

As might be expected, there are quite a few copies of the Brereton broadside at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads.  This one is first on the list:

Rights of man

It was also printed in England by Bebbington (Manchester) and Such (London).  There is also an earlier piece of the same title, first published in 1783 by Thomas Spence, with Chevy Chace prescribed as tune.

Also worth mentioning is  Death of the glorious liberator Daniel O'Connell,  printed between 1840 and 1866 by J. Harkness of Preston, the prescribed air being The rights of man.  Presumably this would be the tune used for Shiel's verses rather than the dance.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:43 AM

Thanks Malcolm - I was about to look up the Bodleian for a copy!

On the tune, my understanding is that Frank Harte fitted the one currently used. Again, I'll check later.

Regards


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 May 01 - 08:53 AM

Malcolm

I had a look at the Daniel O Connell song. Very interesting. Not only does it fit very well to the Anach Cuan tune, but the whole feel of it is like the English version of that song ("If health is spared me, I'll be long relating...")

Regards


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Margo
Date: 29 May 01 - 10:24 AM

But what about the hornpipe? I doesn't seem very singable. And the lyrics I've seen don't seem to fit with that. Surely we're talking about two different pieces, no? I play The Rights of Man on guitar and I was hoping for a little background other than it was inspiried by Thomas Paine.

Margo


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:11 AM

Marg

Yes, we are (talking about two different things). The instrumental piece is quite different. That said, I think its also in Terry's book. I'll see if he has anything to say about it.

Regards


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: Noreen
Date: 29 May 01 - 11:34 AM

Margo, if you read the several postings above, you will see that they are two different pieces, and Jeri gave details about the date and composer of the hornpipe.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 29 May 01 - 07:06 PM

I heard the song to a different air ... maybe sung by 1970s Belfast ballad group The Wolfhounds


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Subject: RE: The rites of man.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 May 01 - 06:01 AM

The hornpipe: Terry Moylan's book gives nothing on its origins - other than saying it is found in many 19C. collections.

The song: Terry tells me that Frank Harte got it from Len Graham, the fine Northern singer. Len published a tape/booklet set of field recordings some years ago called "It's of my rambles...". It includes a fragment of this song from one John McGrath of Moneygran, Co. Derry. I can't find the tapes but suspect it uses the Anach Chuan tune. The booklet also includes a reproduction of a "chap-book" version under the title "Shiel's Nocturnal Vision" published "for the author" in 1840.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: The Rights of Man
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:14 PM

I heard a talk on John Sheils given either by Terry Moylan (or possibly hosted by him) that gave Sheils of Drogheda as the author of the song. The version Moylan published in The Age of Revolution also has Sheils attributing the song to himself:
" …. as dawn was breaking, poor Sheils awaking,
crying 'still be true to the Rights of Man."

I sing it to an air very similar to the song in Irish 'Anach Cuan'.

A search on the Internet did not give me the verses about St. Patrick and the shamrock which are the most interesting, with the shamrock being used to illustrate the "three-in-one" unity sought by the United Irishmen of Protestant (i.e Anglican), Catholic and Dissenter (i.e. Presbyterian and other sects). But I got the verses from Moylan's book.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RIGHTS OF MAN
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Mar 17 - 09:23 PM

Here's what I have compiled by comparing several copies from the Bodleian collection. There are some insignificant words that vary between versions; I have selected the words that seem to me to improve the rhyme or meter or clarity. I have also added punctuation where it seems to help.

It seems odd that I have not been able to find this song in any old book.

Note that verses 4, 7, and 8 below do not appear in the DT version.


THE RIGHTS OF MAN

[1] I speak in candour; one night in slumber
My mind did wander near to Athlone,
The centre station of this Irish nation,
Where a congregation unto me was shown,
Beyond my counting, upon a mountain,
Near to a fountain that clearly ran—
I seem to tremble; I'll not dissemble—
As they assembled for the rights of man.

[2] All clad in green there I thought I seen
A virtuous queen that was grave and old,
Saying: "Children dear, now do not fear,
But come and hear what I will unfold.
This fertile country, near seven centuries
Since Strongbow's entry upon our land,
Has been kept under with woes unnumbered,
And always plundered of the rights of man.

[3] "My cause you chided; you so derided
When divided; alas! you know,
All in disorder round Erin's border,
Strife, grief, and murder have laid you low.
Let each communion detest disunion.
In love and union join hand in hand,
And believe old Granua that proud Britannia
No more shall rob you of the rights of man."

[4] Then I thought the crowd all spoke so loud
And straightway vowed to take her advice.
They seemed delighted and all united,
Not to be frightened, but to rejoice.
Her harp so pleasing she played amazing.
I still kept gazing but could not understand.
She sang enchanting and most endearing
In words most cheering to the rights of man.

[5] Through the azure sky I then did spy
A man to fly and for to descend,
And straightway come down upon the ground
Where Erin round had her bosom friends.
His dazzling mitre and cross was brighter
Than stars by night or the midday sun.
In accents rare then I do declare
He prayed sincere for the rights of man.

[6] When prayer was ended, he condescended
His hand to lend it in freedom's cause.
He says: "I'll lead you and always aid you
And still persuade you to Christian laws.
When in affliction or sad restriction,
My benediction with uplifted hand,
I here explain it: you shall obtain it,
And surely gain it with the rights of man."

[7] For their inspection clear direction
And grand discretion, the three-leafed plant
He elevated and consecrated
And this repeated: "Do not recant,
But still look to it, and still review it.
Let none subdue it—its three-in-one,
To prove its unity in that community
That holds lenity(?) the rights of man."

[8] He straightway blessed and then caressed,
But still impressed them to persevere,
When a rustling wind that seemed quite unkind
Wafted this liquid through the ambient air.
Then Granua fluttered and these words uttered:
"I'll break your fetters before it's long."
Then away he flew and bade them adieu
Saying: "I'd be true to the rights of man."

[9] When the population or congregation
In exultation agreed to part,
Shook hands like brothers and kissed each other,
While friendship smothered each Irish heart.
They separated, all animated,
All elevated at what went on,
As day was breaking and poor Shiel's awaking,
Crying: "Still be true to the rights of man!"


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