BS: The War betting pool

Subject: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:04 PM

Like march madness, the war madness pool is now open


My guess is the US will attack Iraq in a major air strike exactly 3 days after Bush's state of the union address at 10PM Baghdad time.


...................................................................

The first posted closet hour/day wins a fiver from each guessing member on the honor system.

Those that guess never will split the pot
I hope its a split but it seems the ships have already sailed.
...................................................................

Subject: RE: The War betting pool
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:10 PM

If this is your idea of a (sick) joke, there must be better forums for it on the Net.

I've enjoyed your artwork, but this is outside the boundaries of good taste.

Michael

Subject: RE: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:16 PM

Since when is war in good taste.


We are about to witness another war very similar to our last war that in no small way helped kindle the hatred leading to 9-11 although 9-11 is already so convoluted with unanswered questions, that some say it makes the Warren Commission pale in comparison.


My dear Americans:
Guard against any feeling of powerlessness, brace yourself against CNN claims of victory with the aid of animations, maps and retired generals while the stars and stripes play.

The world is watching. They may see more than we will be allowed to see.
A well informed pulic is the foundation of democracy.
A well informed public is our national security.
An ill informed public is an intentional criminal act.
But ignorance is no excuse for you or anyone.
Some of the world believes all Americans have blood on their hands.
The rational know better and see how easy people have been duped for thousands of years.


I only ask that fellow Americans give no aid to the enemy, foreign or domestic. I ask that you consider that some of the domestic enemies may be oily politicians with a grand design who no longer ask you for sacrifice but demand it.

We are now on the march across the sea.

The countdown to war drones on.

The might and fight of the right may have bitten off more than they can chew.

So I encourage you to remove the princely and mentally impoverished presidential imposter.
Remove this vestige of his CIA father from the White House.

George says "I get to decide, not you"

believe me it was decided 10 years ago.

Subject: RE: The War betting pool
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:29 PM

There is a mandatory tradition that stab in the back attacks must take place between mid-night and dawn.

Subject: RE: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:35 PM

OK but you need to state a discernable date and hour to join the pool.

A vote for never is of course an honorable binding guess.

Subject: RE: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:52 PM

Better hurry and enter while there are still some dark of the moon hours left 3 days after the state of the union speech.

Subject: RE: The War betting pool
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:18 PM

Michael:

Hey, my friend, Donuel isn't trying to by flip here. It's really a very much anto-war post. Jusy kinda Hawk Eye Pierce'ish (MASH) in it's character.

Yeah, Donuel, like others here has consistently fought the good fight against this war. It just has gotten to the point of insane rediculuosness in that no matter what, Bush is going to orde the invasion of Iraq. NO MATTER WHAT!

In our utter hopelessness to have any say in what is about to occur, the cynical side steps forward and we try to use a little humor to keep from crying our hearts out.

I don't know if I've expalined this but at least I have taken a try.

With that said, my guess is 2:00 am Bagdad time, Feb 5th. I originally predicted Jan 12th but then poor ol' Bush got his plans messed up with Powell m aking him go to the U.N. Big side show...

Bobert

Subject: RE: The War betting pool
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:33 PM

Aw, Bobert, my man, Jan. 12th is my birthday! Why would you want to go and spoil it?

I just heard another fatuous reason why the reasons that we MUST invade Iraq (evil dictator, possible weapons of mass destruction) don't apply to North Korea (evil dictator, avowed weapons of mass destruction). Get this: it's because if we bombed a nuclear reactor it would release dangerous fallout. (I don't recall if it was Rumsfeld or one of the Joint Chiefs, but whoever it was was quoted this morning on NPR.) Of course, we have absolutely no way of finding out where N. Korea's nuclear reactors are, so we could avoid bombing them. And of course, we're not worried that Iraq might have some nuclear reactors hidden somewhere that our bombs might not be smart enough to avoid hitting. And of course, the fact that North Korea doesn't have any oilfields has nothing whatever to do with it...oh, the hell with it, I'll just make myself angry for no reason.
(Remember what we used to call somebody who could decide singlehandedly to have his country make war on another country? A dictator.)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:59 PM

Thats the spirit, don't let BP, Lockheed and GE be the only ones to profit from war - join the war betting pool.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:13 PM

Rome occasionally elected dictators. It was allowable under Roman law. But they invariably regreted it.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:16 PM

Ahh but ours was hand selected by the former director of the CIA and the cheif Supreme Court Justice Rhenquist without the vulgarites of a normal election.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:37 PM

I won't enter into bets on things as distasteful as this, but my guess is Feb. 10. In other words, I don't think Bush is leaving any room for negotiation and people are going to die.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:38 PM

What is our reference point for time and date?

GMT?
Iraq?
Wash DC?

What is our definition of 'Start'?

First public proclomation?
First bomb dropped?
First movement of troops by other side?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle ]

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:52 PM

And will we still be alive to collect on our bets???????

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:29 AM

The whole thing is distasteful, but Donuel didn't make it that way -- he just highlighted it. Murder is creeping down the halls...justified with dyslexic, tautological psychobabble. Maybe hat should be scatological...


A

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:32 AM

4 PM EST, January 27 (2 AM Baghdad time, January 28). That's the day after the Super Bowl. Football is America's true religion and launching a war during the annual buildup to its most sacred ceremony would be sacrilege of the highest order! Dubya's not gonna take the chance of pissing off whichever television network is carrying THE GAME by stealing its thunder. And he sure as hell's not gonna want THE GAME stealing any of his.

Of course, my sentimental favorite in this horserace is NEVER, but she's starting to look more and more like a long shot.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:09 AM

Should any winner disputes arise my lawyer Joe Mayor should handle it. He covered up givng $200,000 of my dads estate to his wife's friend so I figure he owes me one. If he is not available Katherine Harris can be had cheap.

Amos gets an official 2nd place for advanced rhetoric and bruce's long shot is getting farther every day.

The high rollers bet on Saddam's fate is up to $62 billion in the Power Fall sweepstakes. Ted Turner laid down a bundle on Saddam living long enough to see a second Bush defeated after his first term.

The longest odds are on Hussein's capture in Boca Raton FL with Saddam's Palm Beach bunker stormed by Jeb Bush not far behind.

Insiders have it that Ossama's body is still on ice waiting to be dragged out for display 4 days before the election so keep this hot tip under you hat.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,Tam the Bam Frae Scotland
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:57 AM

you must be one sick bastard to even think like this, you might as well bet on How many dead people will there be at the end of the war?

How can anyone even think about putting on a bet.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Troll
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:12 AM

Mark, we know where the reactors are. The current brouhaha escalated when the NK Govt unsealed them and the monitors were expelled. They were watching the damn things. I'm pretty sure they could locate them on a map.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:52 AM

If our leaders really have developed a taste for attacking dictators who possess arsenals of anti civilian weaponry, we are going to be at war for a very long time with a lot of different countries.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:11 AM

I don't know if Bush is a dictator in the classic definition of the word, but he is a dick and has the brains of a small spud so perhaps in that sense............................

I'll go for February 3 which is the day the music died so what the hell.........Sometime after midnight in Iraq.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Banjer
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:27 AM

Bee-dubya-ell, the letter i after / inside your <>'s would prevent that!

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:49 AM

Ohh body counts, now there is a golden oldie from the Viet Nam war. The problem with body counts is the counter. The Al Brazieera network will report 1,000 American and 5,000 Iraqi babies while MSNBC will report 12,000 Iraqi casualties and 2 wounded Americans.

Meanwhile is is true that more women and children die in modern wars than uniformed combatents.


Super Bowl war bets seem disfavored here for good reason - but let me tell you - here in America every outdoor sporting event I have seen on TV is blurring the line between war and sports ! During the singing of the national anthem (you know the bombs bursting in air crap) there is a fly over of some sort of military mass killing machine, be it a stealth bomber, f-18s or combat helicopter gunships ...timed to fly over as the singer reaches the lyrics "land of the free and home of the brave. I KID YOU NOT

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:05 AM

Aw Spaw, February 3rd? First Mark Cohen's birthday, now mine. Sheesh.
Tony Blair has already done his "there's tough times ahead" New Year speech, so probably he'll be trotting along behind George Dubya saying "don't say I didn't warn you".

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 10:34 AM

Dispassionate talking heads predicting the date for war
think nothing of the dismembering about to begin
Children scream, there's no room in the bunker anymore
While our leader sports a smirk and grin

Step up step up place your bets right here
Be the lucky winner for the invasion day and year
The big game is almost underway
Com'on, take a chance, lets make this puppy pay

(place your bets here)
http://forums.maestronet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB5&Number=180556&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSES

(some good bets on never her)

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: allanwill
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 10:42 AM

According to the following from todays news, we already have "the beginning of a war"

Allan

About 100 US Special Forces members and more than 50 Central Intelligence Agency officers have been inside Iraq for at least four months, according to intelligence and military officials.

Military analysts say the bombing, almost daily, by US jets over the no-fly zone, coupled with Special Forces and CIA officers inside Iraq, means that a quiet, barely noticed fight has been unfolding.

"We're bombing practically every day as we patrol the no-fly zones, taking out air defence batteries, and there are all kinds of CIA and Special Forces operations going on," said Timur Eads, a former US special operations officer, who for 20 years who took part in missions inside Iraq in the 1990s. "So I would call it the beginning of a war."

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 10:50 AM

Donuel how do you sleep at night?

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM

You bet I do

You bettin or not?

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

My vote is on the electric car. Fuck the oil. OK,OK, a little futuristic insight and psycho babble. I can't bet on the insanity so pardon this brief interuption.
PEACE, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Dharmabum
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM

Hushabye little one, why do you weep?
We've got a toy that will put you to sleep.
Sang the crow on the cradle.
(Sydney Carter)


    DB.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:17 PM

The hydrogen fuel cell indeed makes the coming oil war part II tragic since the men willing to kill countless people for a handful of oil dollars are grabbing at resources on the verge of extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:20 PM

The question is whether they'll actually wait until the UN inspectors come back and report that the Iraqis cooperated completely in the inspection process, and they found nothing. That's due to be on 27th January.

It could be a bit embarrassing, especially for Blair, so I'd be inclined to suspect they won't wait for that but that they'll find some pretext to jump the gun, such as a fake attack, supposedly carried out by Iraqi forces on a US Navy Boat, on the lines of the Gulf of Tonkin incident.

What days that State of the Union stuff address supposed to be anyway? Surely not until a couple of days after Blix is due to report back.

My guess would be that the crucial date might be Friday 17th January, which would give a bit longer to enable it to be claimed that the inspectors hadn't completed their mission when Saddam disrupted it, and avoid the risk they might slap it in a day or so ahead of schedule; and after all Friday is a holy day for the Muslims.

There seems a certain irony-detection deficit around on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:30 PM

Some have disabled the irony alarm on their computers but who can blame them.

All the policy wonks and beltway insiders are betting that the dark of the moon 3 days after the state of the union speech (which is after the UN goon squad will be safely out of Iraq) will be some sort of official invasion date - not that the bombing has ever really stopped in the last 11 years.

"The magician distracted your attention to the UN inspectors in his pocket while freedom is palmed and replaced with industrial fascism."

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:49 PM

"Children scream, there's no room in the bunker anymore
While our leader sports a smirk and grin"

This time it will be our babies...and not just the sons and daughters we send overseas. September 11th was a prelude. I choose not to bet for fear I will be right.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

I wouldn't worry yet. Unless you're in Iraq. The reprisals will come in time, but probably not yet awhile.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 02:59 PM

Sinsull said "I choose not to bet for fear I will be right". Now there's wisdom! IF WE TRULY UNDERSTOOD THE POWER OF OUR OWN THOUGHTS WE WOULD GUARD THEM MUCH MORE CAREFULLY!!

I bet that the more people sit around and bet it's gonna happen, imagining and speculating on and visualizing it happening, all the while churning up more and more huge dark "pools" of fear and negative emotions and dumping them out on everyone around them, the more likely they'll make choices and behave in ways that ENSURE it happening. Whether they are aware of what they're doing or not.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:21 PM

Sickest thread I've seen on Mudcat to date.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM

Sarah Phelan, on another thread: "As Judyth Hill writes, "Wage peace with your breath.
Breathe in firemen and rubble, breathe out whole buildings and flocks of red wing blackbirds.
Breathe in terrorists and breathe out sleeping children and freshly mown fields.
Breathe in confusion and breathe out maple trees.
Breathe in the fallen and breathe out lifelong friendships intact. Wage peace with your listening: hearing sirens, pray loud.
Remember your tools: flower seeds, clothes pins, clean rivers.
Make soup.
Play music.
Learn the word for thank you in three languages.
Learn to knit, and make a hat.
Think of chaos as dancing raspberries,
Imagine grief as the outbreath of beauty or the gesture of fish. Swim for the other side.
Wage peace. Never has the world seemed so fresh and precious- Have a cup of tea and rejoice. Act as if armistice has already arrived. Don't wait another minute."

I printed this out so I can keep it by me, and read it frequently.
Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:57 PM

First, I think people need to do some homework on nukes. NO ONE is capable of "hiding" a nuclear reactor, OK? (And I thought we had this covered after 3 Mile Island, and all)

Second, if the only way some of you are willing to deal with this march towards war is by breathing deeply and thinking peaceful thoughts while dictating to everyone else how evil they are for not seeing the world through YOUR rose colored glasses well, fuck you. You are such naive morons you are as bloody dangerous as the people claiming they are going to war to protect us from bad people.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Chris Amos
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM

Hi.

I would imagine that George W, has learnt, from the experience of his father, that the length of time between the end of the war and the start of the next American Presidential election cannot be longer than the attention span of the American voter (about four months).

For that reason my money is on January 15th 2004.

While we are waiting perhaps you would care to join me in a song....

Come on all you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs your help again
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder.......

Wanders off ito distance mumbling

CA

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:17 PM

Black humour is sicker than red blood?

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:29 PM

I'm an American, here to apologize for irony deficient and black humor challenged Americans everywhere.

It does rather explain why so many Americans believe everything they are told by their televisions though, doesn't it? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:36 PM

Oh my god my mouth fell off!

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:39 PM

"if the only way some of you are willing to deal with this march towards war is by breathing deeply and thinking peaceful thoughts while dictating to everyone else how evil they are for not seeing the world through YOUR rose colored glasses well, fuck you." Seriously, Guest/3:57, just what do YOU propose to do?I think whatthe 'breathe deeply' post is saying is that is something ANYONE can do, that the only power any of us really has is to control our own reactions, and just maybe others in this world may be influenced.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:39 PM

Actually, Banjer, it was probably accidentally holding the shift key down and typing a "?" where I should have typed a "/".

Note to self: Use "preview" when using any HTML, particularly when it's after midnight.

Now, to those of you who find this thread distasteful, exactly how many of the "bets" that have been placed here do you think are serious? Have you never heard of irony? Have you never seen "MASH" (as Bobert has already pointed out), or read Catch 22? Have you never listened to Country Joe Macdonald's "Fixin' to Die Rag"? Sometimes there are things that are so painful that the only way they can be dealt with is with ironic humor. Not a person who has posted here has any desire to see his/her "prediction" come true.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 04:55 PM

Except that when Doug keeps on reminding us the war hasn't started yet and might not, I'm sure he means that and hopes it won't. Unfortunately he's not in the White House, or I'd feel a lot happier.(And that's not irony on my part.)

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: DougR
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 05:13 PM

Yes, I understand irony, and I do have a sense of humor.

This thread, it seems to me, would be like having a best friend dying of cancer with no hope of surviving and his/her friends begin a pool to see when he/she will take the last breath. It just ain't funny to me.

McGrath: you are right. I sincerely hope war can be avoided. All Saddam has to do is comply with the UN accords he agreed to and there will be no war.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 05:15 PM

Ebbie, we're all breathing already, all the time, and frankly I don't see that it has done any good whatsoever. Now, if breathing, which is something that anyone with a pulse is currently doing (INCLUDING George W Bush and Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden and Tony Blair and my mother and me) constitutes a strategy or tactic for preventing war, I'll stand corrected. Until then, I find the suggestion to be wholly absurd.

And as for your claim "the only power any of us really has is to control our own reactions" you are dead wrong, and obviously don't understand the finer points of the democratic process. The democratic process Ebbie, is all about finding positive, proactive ways of exerting our influence on the world in a myriad of creative ways. Ways that challenge and speak truth to power when it is being abused and misused, as it surely is in the case of the US march towards war with Iraq. We have, so long as a breath remains in us, millions of ways to fight against our government when they are wrong, including using our constitutionally protected rights of dissent, free speech, right to assembly, etc.

I mean, your idea is distasteful in the extreme to any and all who believe in the democratic process. Breathing deeply and thinking peaceful thoughts is something fearful, cowardly people who have given up on this country do, not something people fighting to keep the ideals of this country are doing.

So, will we see you breathing deeply on the front lines, then Ebbie?

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

If we are all watching an asteroid sweep across the sky yet every night it grows twice as bright, I would say the new age breathing thought experiment would have no merit at all.
However in the course of human events such as war a well placed attitude or emotion can find its way into influential spheres.
I daresay a word or song in Greenspan's ear might change a momment in time. maybe

I do not discount the power of willful human thought in mass to be able to inexplicably influence unlikely physical systems such as electronic randomizers. This has been quantified.

If we are going to steer hurricanes and the winds of war with breathing meditation however, you will also have to own and operate all the billionaire owned media monopolies, control the military industry, put all the armageddonists out of their misery and advance the HAARP/Tesla technology beyond our current grasp.
but for
now, I am going to double down my bet on Jan 31st 4PM EDT

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 05:39 PM

GUEST I didn't say that anyone is "evil"! Just ignorant of the power of their own thoughts and emotions. And ignorance IS no excuse.

Bruce I hope you're right that "not a person who posted here has any desire to see his/her predictions come true." Why then do they spend their time and energy - and personal power - creating what they DON'T want, first in their thoughts and emotions and expectations, then (eventually and inevitably) in the world around them? Seems to me it's much more productive to use your resources creating what you DO want!

"So whatever your hands find to do
You must do with all your heart.
There are thoughts enough to blow men's minds
and tear great worlds apart...

So don't ask 'what am I not doing'
because your voice cannot command.
In time, you will move mountains.
It will come THROUGH YOUR HANDS".

    - from David Crosby's "Through Your Hands"

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 05:42 PM

Actually it's not uncommon in life or death situations for people to have exactly this kind of sweepstake.

If noone wins, everyone wins, that's the whole point.

So far Saddam's lot seems to be doing everything they are asked to do by the inspectors. And Bush was referring to that yesterday as "defiance". That's why I have a feeling that, come hell or high water, everyone isn't going to be allowed to win this particular sweepstake.

And I hope I'm wrong there, of course I do.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM

"I do not discount the power of willful human thought in mass..."

I don't either Donuel. I also know that it takes a tremendous amount of highly focused, intentional thoughts AND right actions to prevent and/or stop wars among an exponentially increasing mass of people. I know this not because science has proved it, history has.

But to claim this can be done by preaching to others that deep breathing and positive visualization are the only worthy, right answer to this evil, shows a tremendous ignorance and dangerous naivety about how prayer, meditation, visualization (or whatever people choose to label the concentration and focus of specific attention/intention) works. And if people do understand the nature of the beast, then I can only ascribe much more distasteful motives to people coming into a thread started to help people cope with the feelings of despair, and lecturing them that their chosen strategy for coping with that despair is evil. Evil compared to what? As McGrath pointed out--are these people serious when they claim that black humour regarding our despair over the US march to war is actually more evil than the blood of the innocents that will be spilled?

Some people around here are in serious need of reality checks.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 05:54 PM

Oh dear it sounds like new age puritanism would ban Saturday Nite Live from TV if they had a chance.

I love the Through your hands quote

but the momment types like you tell me I can NOT repeat a joke by Christopher Rock or Bill Cosby because I am not black or that I may NOT lampoon all the Sunday morning Washington Week in Review talking heads predicting the date of invasion as if its D day in Europe -
then I tell you

suck an egg, its got lots of vitamins. :)

now lets belly up to the bar boys, the bookie is back in town.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 05:54 PM

Doug, much as I like you and respect your views, sometimes I have to wonder. I'm sure you really believe that "all Saddam has to do is comply with the UN accords he agreed to and there will be no war," but I think you're being as naive as Ebbie has been accused of being. Remember that LBJ got his War Powers Act because of the Gulf of Tonkin incident....and that incident, as it turned out, never happened--the military and the President lied to Congress and the American people. Do you think it couldn't happen again?

Aloha,
Mark
(Actually, I think Ebbie's right...but that's another topic.)

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:16 PM

Hey GUEST are you obsessed with "evil" or something? I think YOU are the only one to use that word in this thread!

I don't see anyone else saying "...deep breathing and visualization are the only worthy, right answer to this evil" EXCEPT you!!

When you can understand that to think about, visualize and generate strong emotions about something IS a form of 'prayer' or 'meditation', whether you realize it or not, then you'll understand that it's wise to GUARD YOUR THOUGHTS MOST VIGILANTLY SO THAT YOU CREATE WHAT YOU WANT INSTEAD OF WHAT YOU DON'T.

That's why I don't like negativism, and whenever I see it I try to balance it with HEALTHY HOPEFUL EMPOWERING THOUGHTS.

Sorry to disturb your thread, Donuel. I'll let you get back to creating your dangerous vile pool of fear and negativism now...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:39 PM

Thank you and peace be with you.

Now be careful and avert your eyes...
I am about to evoke some of my "dangerous vile pool of fear and negativism" by writing the words - George W. Bush

AIIeeeeeeeeeHH

pant pant pant

whew

sorry those words really do anger and scare me at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:43 PM

I'm with you, daulia. Yes, I have said over and over that Bush will invade Iraq, irregarless of any evidence or lack thereof of WMD, but as things seem to moving toward the very real posssibility if this attack occuring, I spend more and more time praying for that God will just yell at Bush to "STOP". Though I fear that Bush is unable tohear God because he really isn't a man of Faith, this will continue to be the crux of my prayers. Stranger things have happened...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:50 PM

Me too Donuel. I guess we just have different ways of dealing with that fear and anger. But I ask you sincerely, do you really think it does any good to generate MORE fear and anger in people by encouraging them to imagine the worst?

You seem like an intelligent, informed and caring person - so I really am wondering at your rationale.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:05 PM

There has to be an attack..CNN has their slogans and logos all designed.

And all those carriers sitting in the area filled with supplies...it's too expensive to just leave them there indefinitely, and they'd look silly sailing home after doing nothing.

And the UN inspector have found NOTHING!...Don't you see? That proves Saddam has hidden everything so well that we MUST blow up half of Iraq to be sure!
There has to be an attack..CNN has their slogans and logos all designed.

And all those carriers sitting in the area filled with supplies...it's too expensive to just leave them there indefinitely, and they'd look silly sailing home after doing nothing.

And the UN inspector have found NOTHING!...Don't you see? That proves Saddam has hidden everything so well that we MUST blow up half of Iraq to be sure!

IF we attack, and IF Saddam is toppled, and IF no real WMDs are found, I am concerned about what will happen. Will evidence be faked? Will we be shown photos of "poison gas factories" and be told what a catastrophe that GW averted with his aggressive righteousness?


.....and yes, this thread is not funny, and I am not laughing. I am, like many, (including veteran newsmen) amazed by the direction this is going and the logic being employed. Most of the rest of the world is shaking their heads in disbelief that we are attempting to unseat a government, no matter how distasteful it may be, in this manner.

(and for the record, I too wonder if the State of the Union speech and the Superbowl are not prime considerations for timing)

no bet for me....I could not spend any money I won this way.
IF we attack, and IF Saddam is toppled, and IF no real WMDs are found, I am concerned about what will happen. Will evidence be faked? Will we be shown photos of "poison gas factories" and be told what a catastrophe that GW averted with his aggressive rightousness? And what will we do IF we make such a stupid mistake and it is found out? (Like "arms for hostages" and "Iran-Contra")


.....and yes, this thread is not funny, and I am not laughing. I am, like many, (including veteran newsmen who are having trouble reporting this with a straight face!) amazed by the direction this is going and the logic being employed. Most of the rest of the world is shaking their heads in disbelief that we are attempting to unseat a government, no matter how distasteful it may be, in this manner.

(and for the record, I too wonder if the State of the Union speech and the Superbowl are not prime considerations for timing)

no bet for me....I could not spend any money I won this way.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:12 PM

Here is a scenario of no war that some adhere to:

Bush is playing the cool hand , holding a royal flush, and breaking the bank, before he shows. Saadam has one pair and he's trying to bluff. But it won't work.
No War, Saadam falls in six months.
Actually, he's all ready beaten.
hmmm maybe

......................................

Yes the last war touched me.
The last gulf war infected me with a suspected mycoplasma brucellis hybrid - a man made bio warfare agent that presents as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
The infection was small compared to most and was dealt with effectively with multiple weeks of Cipro.
I believe all one need do is live near a large naval base where veterans disembark to be accidentally exposed.

The poor veterans who were told gulf war syndrome was all in their head are less than half their number today. They are dead.

Perhaps links to support these suppositions would only upset daylia but they are availabel via PM




The betting parlor is open all night for the clone of the attack II
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid45/pf5244a16bc99f059769c01f48fdfec15/fcd3b11f.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Banjer
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:23 PM

Actually, Banjer, it was probably accidentally holding the shift key down and typing a "?" where I should have typed a "/".

I checked with the 'view source' function from the right click and it is definetly an omission of the 'i'!

Just trying to help ya hone yer HTML skills!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:28 PM

You say this thread is sick Doug?

How about this bit of spam that I just got in my email:

New George Bush 2001
Memorial Bill 9-11-01
Dedidcated To Those Who Lost Their Lives

LIMITED EDITION!
These Collectors Items Will Stop Being Made Very Soon !!!

Real Color, Size & Feel of American Paper Currency

The front shows our proud President, George W Bush. The back is dedicated to the memory of those lost on the day of infamy:

FDNY, Flight 11, Flight 93, NYPD, Flight 77, Flight 175, The Pentagon & World Trade Center

Everyone in America should own one of these. They make great gifts for all occasions and are a great conversation starter.

NOTE: This is not to be used as real currency this is meant only to be a collectible.

We've shead our tears, but Commander Bush has spoken! "You're either with us or with the terrorists!" Show your support for our country and the people of New York by carrying one of these commerorative bills!   

1 George Bush Bill $1.50 Plus $3.00 Shipping and Handling
10 George Bush Bills $12.50 ($1.25 each) Plus $3.00 Shipping and Handling
20 George Bush Bills $20.00 ($1.00 each) Plus $3.00 Shipping and Handling

Order Now!!!

Now, taking this as genuine, it is sick.

And *day-liah* - I agree that building up hate and fear is a bad thing, and I think that turning your mind to thoughts of love and peace are a good thing. (Hatred just rots the soul and confuses the mind, and gets in the way of any kind of effective action.)

But I also don't see any contrast between that and what Donuel did whern he started this thread. I see this kind of thing as a way of dispersing the hate and fear rather than anything; and I see the value of turning your mind to thoughts of love and peace largely lies in this helping get the spirit geared up to help us stand up against the madness that seems to be taking over.

In the States, at any rate, it sounds as if doing that might take a lot of courage, one way and another - witness that crass quote from Bush in that sick email I posted just here - "You're either with us or with the terrorists!" (Over here we might get pulled into it, but there's no groundswell of backing for it at all, so far as I can see.)

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:46 PM

EEEEEEEEEEEKKKK
I think I now have a case of Iraqnophobia and 911itis

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,HMRTR
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:46 PM

20th Feb 02:30 GMT. or at least I hope so :)

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 08:57 PM

I guess I would rather my friends have a pool on my death time, then some Dr. telling me I have a killing cancer and giving me two months to live, where I believe it so much I make it happen
Ah, wait a minute, could this be a thought process turning into reality?
And wouldn't it just serve my frieds right if I actually beat the cancer, because I believed I had the power instead of some Dr?
Ha!
Peace, Rustic( breathing and believing a better world)
P.S. Guest, please don't go there with me ok? I think we've discussed this in a different thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 10:52 PM

Doug R.... "All Saddam has to do is comply with the UN accords he agreed to and there will be no war."

The war has already started. And get used to it. As long as people are oppressed, there will be fighting. Whether it be a dictator, religeous oppression, oppression aginst women, rich against poor, whatever, it won't stop just because you don't approve.

What I don't understand is the opposition to removing these despot crazy motherf***ers from power. How can we stand by and do nothing while people are being oppressed ? Are we supposed to believe that religeous freedom is grounds for oppression ? for slavery ? for genital mutilation ? Nay. Nay. Nay. Pass the ammo.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 11:12 PM

I understand what Daylia is saying. Words do have the power to create reality. Even by saying what you DON'T want, you are giving energy to that thing. Of course, everybody here would want peace, and I understand the irony of the thread, but it might be worth considering what Daylia is saying, and choose the words you put out to the universe carefully.

My brother in France emailed me a petition (in French) to stop Bush waging war, with a list of names to add to, and I asked him if he could send me a version in English, so non-French speakers could read it, and he emailed me back the next day, saying someone had told him the petition was a hoax. I don't know - seemed like a good idea to me, and not something to be joking about, I would have thought.

I'm going to bet NEVER, and I hope I win. If I win, everybody wins.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 11:19 PM

JennyO, I'll bet with you, not against you. I want us to win!

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 11:32 PM

The slaves in the Sudan win ? The millions of women in Africa and Asia who face female castration win ? The millions of women in Africa and Asia who are denied education and employment win ? The poor in all nations win ? Oops. I think I may have violated my New Year's resolution... about trying to bring some common sense to this debate... I'll just crawl back in my hole. Gosh only knows there's nothing worse than a whining gnu..... but it's becoming much harder to not turn into my alter ego... if you won't stand up for your neighbours and yourselves... who will ?.... you bunch of f***ing pussies !!!

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 11:57 PM

Gnu, do you think the way to address these very real problems is by going to battle against their hosts? What if someone is sitting somewhere in the middle or far east right this moment and saying that s/he can no longer tolerate the United States' degenerate, materialistic, bullying society and is going to do something about it? Would we grant them that right?

We cannot go to war against all these nations and set them straight. Nowhere and by no one have we been given that power or right.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:46 AM

Just checking out the vileness of this dangerous pool this morning - Hmmmm looks like JennyO and Ebbie and Rustic and McGrath are doin a GREAT job cleaning it up!! WAY TO GO!!!

OK now I'll just do some remindin - y'all keep mindin your minds now y'hear? I bet you won't regret it!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:55 AM

I think they should all sit down to a friendly game of Risk, Lord of the Rings version. Loser dismantles all WMDs.

We can fix the game. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:17 AM

I see the enlightened dayliah is now keeping score to see how many posts agree with her.

That really increases my confidence in this idiot savant for the new age.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:24 AM

Kim I like it! I keep wishing we could beam George and Saddam et al up to the space station and leave them there until they can work out their differences. A few months gazing down at this beautiful planet might restore their common sense (or help them develop it if they've never had any). Plus they'd be leaving the rest of us in peace to clean up the mess down here ...

Could provide them with the Lord of the Rings version of Risk too ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:28 AM

GUEST I love you too!!! Gads I must be doing something right if I've aroused the ire of one as brilliant and enlightened as yourself!

Peace and hope

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:37 AM

You are jumping the gun flattering yourself dayliah. To arouse someone's ire requires they take your opinions seriously. But I do congratulate you. Your grasp of nuance is apparently as sophisticated as your intellect.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:42 AM

http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/news/headlines/wolfers.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:49 AM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/08/24_war.html

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:52 AM

The Waco Times:

http://www.news-record.com/news/opinions/letters/underlettbg.htm

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM

Donuel, relax man. There is nothing wrong or negative or bad about speculating and betting on the start of the war. Nothing. Ignore the new age girls behind the curtain attempting to demonize you.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:13 PM

Donuel get a grip. (That's GRIP, not GRIPE.) You'll know you've achieved that grip when you discover that dumping your toxic mental/emotional/spiritual waste all over a public forum (for the purpose of generating more of it to uselessly wallow in) no longer attracts you. And you begin to do something more healthy, intelligent and respectful instead.

'Nough said. A very Wise One once warned against spreading your pearls in front of pigs. So I'm outta here (I hope).

Peace and hope to you all,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: TIA
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:24 PM

Doug R - the problem with your "friend with cancer" death pool analogy is that (I presume) the cancer is incurable and death inevitable. This war does not need to be inevitable.

On negativity -- if Donuel's admittedly black war pool could get everyone to (as Daylia put it) "imagine the worst", maybe the war wouldn't happen at all! I am a hugely positive person -- regularly accused of being relentlessly optimistic, so nobody can begin to accuse me of negativity, but I think we should all fill our minds with pictures of the horror of war. Let's ALL imagine charred and dismembered children (are you squirming yet?), black smoke poisoning the air, widespread radiation contamination from depleted uranium armor piercing shell tips... We need to see these things in our minds and transmit them to our children, not to make sure thay happen through some daffy "hundredth monkey" mystery, but to make sure they DON'T happen because we remember the horror.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM

PS GUEST are your b**** big enough to become a member today? That way you could attack me through PMs instead of letting the whole world see what a close-minded bigot you are!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM

TIA has that well-worn approach ever worked before in the history of the human race? Nope. Now THERE'S the "daffy hundredth monkey system" demonstrated to perfection! Thanks for sharing!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: TIA
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:40 PM

Nope, hasn't worked yet, but if we quit trying, it sure as heck won't even have a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:43 PM

Agreed, TIA. To fight evil one must first be able to stare it in the ey, see it clearly, lucidly, and then analyze it with one's most refined and highly developed critical sensibilities.

To blithely ignore evil by projecting narcissistic, childish emotions onto the thing of evil, strengthens rather than lessens it. It is precisely those types of naive, narcissist reactions evil feeds upon. That is the banality evil relies upon to thrive and grow in power and force.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:45 PM

All the best TIA. May you be able to do that with love and hope in your heart.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: TIA
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:48 PM

Daylia- I mean no offense to you. You do not know me, nor the level of love and hope in my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:57 PM

TIA I meant that sincerely! I didn't feel offended by what you said at all! For me it's impossible to imagine horrific scenarios while maintaining any kind of love and hope in my heart. I certainly couldn't build up anything positive or productive that way. But that doesn't mean YOU can't! ALL THE BEST to you, TIA! And may your efforts prove history wrong!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

Hey GUEST I don't buy that word 'evil'. People are not 'evil', just ignorant and misguided, imo.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 02:40 PM

It appears I was wrong about you being a simple narcissist, daylia. Upon closer reading of your 6 Jan 12:13 PM post, I see you also exhibit maladaptive personality characteristics of a negativist, passive aggressive type.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 03:55 PM

Given that a bombing attack involving 200 aircraft a couple of months ago was described as a "routine patrol", it could be difficult to determine the start of Bush's war of aggression.

Don't suppose there's any chance the pathetic, inadequate bastard might choke on a pretzel during the superbowl?

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 04:13 PM

"Don't suppose there's any chance the pathetic, inadequate bastard might choke on a pretzel during the superbowl?"

Or that Barney will eat him after he chokes.

I agree with the futileness of betting on a bombing start date, as the Gulf Air War never ended.

Subject: Just plain Nuts (you know who they are)
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 04:34 PM

You were always mad
now you're just plain nuts.
Nuclear Unconditional Tactical Strikes
is the Bush policy now.
It used to be
Mutual Assured Destruction
but now its a Texas showdown.

Whoever draws first wins.

That seldom even worked in the movies.

(deep spiritual breath)

If only MADD
had put this nut away
years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 04:36 PM

I don't think Barney Franks would touch him with a ten foot pole.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 04:41 PM

I was referring to the Bush's dog, Barney.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 04:59 PM

And I thought you meant Barney, the purple dinosaur. Thanks for the clarification. I would have been awake all night trying to figure that one out.

I remember reading an article about the testing of the first atomic bomb - Fat Boy(?). The writer was shocked and disgusted over a lottery conducted by the technicians working on the Manhattan Project. They bet on whether or not the detonation would set fire to the earth's atmosphere and destroy the world. It was, of course, black humor. No one wanted to win that bet either.

Play nice, children.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:04 PM

"And I thought you meant Barney, the purple dinosaur. Thanks for the clarification."

Not at all, Sinsull. Though I must say, I'm mildly amused at the image of an asphyxiated Bush carcass being consumed by Barney the purple dinosaur. The highlight of my day!

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:20 PM

vile is an anagram of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM

literally and metaphorically.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:30 PM

And all those nasty little Barney kids singing "I love you. You love me..." It works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:41 PM

"And all those nasty little Barney kids singing "I love you. You love me..."

In a "Village of the Damned/Midwich Cuckoos" sort of way! Surreal!

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 05:53 PM

day lia - breathing deep


http://www.nurple.com/graphics/animation/nurple-mothersmilk.gif

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 06:53 PM

That was funny! Thanks Donuel I think this thread needed a little lightening up.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 07:22 PM

"vile" and "evil" are both anagrams of "live" for that matter.

I think keeping your eyes open on the evil things that can happen in the world is an important part of loving it. I wouldn't think too much of parents who ignored the fact that their child was being bullied at school, for example, because it upset them to think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:40 PM

...and all of them are one letter away from Elvis. Hmmm.....

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:21 PM

elvis lives evils...

Subject: guess my name
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 12:14 AM

Had assumed sin
His Dad's ass menu
US hid a madness
As sand used him
A Dead Miss Shun
Has a muddiness
Is Medusa's hand
Deism shuns a ad
A hiss damned US
As his US demand
Is a sanded mush
He's a US dad's min.
US hiss dead man
Amused hind ass
Unmade ass dish
Is UN smash dead
Hi, A dad's UN mess
US minds a Hades
Dashes a US mind
Dashes a nudism
Duh, is Ed Assman
I'm Dad, She's Anus
Hess, I'm Dad's anus
Dead Ham's sinus
His assumed DNA
His a D.U. madness
A hand used sims
Mad as sun hides
US dishes a damn
Ed damns a sushi
She is a DNA's mud

Sudan hid a mess
Hems Asian duds
Ends as a HUDism
Ned's a humid ass
Send him a DU ass

Adam hid USN SSE
USA Dad hiss men
Him, UN's dead ass
Dame's anus dish
I damn US shades
Saud shims Dane

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 12:36 AM

I'm impressed!

A band is a lemon
Noise and a lamb
O, banana smiled
Lame abo in sand (for the Oz folks)

I'm sure there are dozens of others, but it's getting late.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,Tam frae Scotland
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 01:47 AM

I think that people who think that jokes about babes smoking dope is funny, are sick bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,Tam frae Scotland
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 01:50 AM

Now I can take a joke like everyone else however there are some so called jokes that even I find sick.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM

This is the worst humor challenged thread I think I've ever seen in Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: TIA
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 10:19 AM

You're right. War just isn't funny.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 11:35 AM

It's the sickness of the Bushies that justifies it. Never mistake a disabused idealist for a cynic.

Of all the anagrams above, the winner has to be "Hess, I'm Dad's anus". It says it all, even the reference to futile attempts to prevent a war caused by your own side. If Bush finally and miraculously pulls back, he'll re-brand himself as a man of peace, and who knows even get the Henry Kissinger memorial Nobel peace prize.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 03:10 PM

MMMM ! As black humour goes Kipling did rather well with this, and I fear it is relavent !!!

The Ballad of Boh Da Thone
    This is the ballad of Boh Da Thone,
    Erst a Pretender to Theebaw's throne,
    Who harried the district of Alalone:
    How he met with his fate and the V.P.P.*
    At the hand of Harendra Mukerji,
    Senior Gomashta, G.B.T.

Boh Da Thone was a warrior bold:
His sword and his rifle were bossed with gold,

And the Peacock Banner his henchmen bore
Was stiff with bullion, but stiffer with gore.

He shot at the strong and he slashed at the weak
From the Salween scrub to the Chindwin teak:

He crucified noble, he sacrificed mean,
He filled old ladies with kerosene:

While over the water the papers cried,
"The patriot fights for his countryside!"

But little they cared for the Native Press,
The worn white soldiers in Khaki dress,

Who tramped through the jungle and camped in the byre,
Who died in the swamp and were tombed in the mire,

Who gave up their lives, at the Queen's Command,
For the Pride of their Race and the Peace of the Land.

Now, first of the foemen of Boh Da Thone
Was Captain O'Neil of the Black Tyrone,

And his was a Company, seventy strong,
Who hustled that dissolute Chief along.

There were lads from Galway and Louth and Meath
Who went to their death with a joke in their teeth,

And worshipped with fluency, fervour, and zeal
The mud on the boot-heels of "Crook" O'Neil.

But ever a blight on their labours lay,
And ever their quarry would vanish away,

Till the sun-dried boys of the Black Tyrone
Took a brotherly interest in Boh Da Thone:

And, sooth, if pursuit in possession ends,
The Boh and his trackers were best of friends.

The word of a scout -- a march by night --
A rush through the mist -- a scattering fight --

A volley from cover -- a corpse in the clearing --
The glimpse of a loin-cloth and heavy jade earring --

The flare of a village -- the tally of slain --
And. . .the Boh was abroad on the raid again!

They cursed their luck, as the Irish will,
They gave him credit for cunning and skill,

They buried their dead, they bolted their beef,
And started anew on the track of the thief

Till, in place of the "Kalends of Greece", men said,
"When Crook and his darlings come back with the head."

They had hunted the Boh from the hills to the plain --
He doubled and broke for the hills again:

They had crippled his power for rapine and raid,
They had routed him out of his pet stockade,

And at last, they came, when the Daystar tired,
To a camp deserted -- a village fired.

A black cross blistered the morning-gold,
And the body upon it was stark and cold.

The wind of the dawn went merrily past,
The high grass bowed her plumes to the blast.

And out of the grass, on a sudden, broke
A spirtle of fire, a whorl of smoke --

And Captain O'Neil of the Black Tyrone
Was blessed with a slug in the ulnar-bone --
The gift of his enemy Boh Da Thone.

(Now a slug that is hammered from telegraph-wire
Is a thorn in the flesh and a rankling fire.)

    .    .    .    .    .

The shot-wound festered -- as shot-wounds may
In a steaming barrack at Mandalay.

The left arm throbbed, and the Captain swore,
"I'd like to be after the Boh once more!"

The fever held him -- the Captain said,
"I'd give a hundred to look at his head!"

The Hospital punkahs creaked and whirred,
But Babu Harendra (Gomashta) heard.

He thought of the cane-brake, green and dank,
That girdled his home by the Dacca tank.

He thought of his wife and his High School son,
He thought -- but abandoned the thought -- of a gun.

His sleep was broken by visions dread
Of a shining Boh with a silver head.

He kept his counsel and went his way,
And swindled the cartmen of half their pay.

    .    .    .    .    .

And the months went on, as the worst must do,
And the Boh returned to the raid anew.

But the Captain had quitted the long-drawn strife,
And in far Simoorie had taken a wife;

And she was a damsel of delicate mould,
With hair like the sunshine and heart of gold,

And little she knew the arms that embraced
Had cloven a man from the brow to the waist:

And little she knew that the loving lips
Had ordered a quivering life's eclipse,

Or the eye that lit at her lightest breath
Had glared unawed in the Gates of Death.

(For these be matters a man would hide,
As a general rule, from an innocent Bride.)

And little the Captain thought of the past,
And, of all men, Babu Harendra last.

    .    .    .    .    .

But slow, in the sludge of the Kathun road,
The Government Bullock Train toted its load.

Speckless and spotless and shining with ghi,
In the rearmost cart sat the Babu-jee.

And ever a phantom before him fled
Of a scowling Boh with a silver head.

Then the lead-cart stuck, though the coolies slaved,
And the cartmen flogged and the escort raved;

And out of the jungle, with yells and squeals,
Pranced Boh Da Thone, and his gang at his heels!

Then belching blunderbuss answered back
The Snider's snarl and the carbine's crack,

And the blithe revolver began to sing
To the blade that twanged on the locking-ring,

And the brown flesh blued where the bay'net kissed,
As the steel shot back with a wrench and a twist,

And the great white oxen with onyx eyes
Watched the souls of the dead arise,

And over the smoke of the fusillade
The Peacock Banner staggered and swayed.

Oh, gayest of scrimmages man may see
Is a well-worked rush on the G.B.T.!

The Babu shook at the horrible sight,
And girded his ponderous loins for flight,

But Fate had ordained that the Boh should start
On a lone-hand raid of the rearmost cart,

And out of that cart, with a bellow of woe,
The Babu fell -- flat on the top of the Boh!

For years had Harendra served the State,
To the growth of his purse and the girth of his p]^et.

There were twenty stone, as the tally-man knows,
On the broad of the chest of this best of Bohs.

And twenty stone from a height discharged
Are bad for a Boh with a spleen enlarged.

Oh, short was the struggle -- severe was the shock --
He dropped like a bullock -- he lay like a block;

And the Babu above him, convulsed with fear,
Heard the labouring life-breath hissed out in his ear.

And thus in a fashion undignified
The princely pest of the Chindwin died.

    .    .    .    .    .

Turn now to Simoorie where, lapped in his ease,
The Captain is petting the Bride on his knees,

Where the whit of the bullet, the wounded man's scream
Are mixed as the mist of some devilish dream --

Forgotten, forgotten the sweat of the shambles
Where the hill-daisy blooms and the gray monkey gambols,

From the sword-belt set free and released from the steel,
The Peace of the Lord is on Captain O'Neil.

    .    .    .    .    .

Up the hill to Simoorie -- most patient of drudges --
The bags on his shoulder, the mail-runner trudges.

"For Captain O'Neil, Sahib. One hundred and ten
Rupees to collect on delivery."
                                 Then

(Their breakfast was stopped while the screw-jack and hammer
Tore waxcloth, split teak-wood, and chipped out the dammer;)

Open-eyed, open-mouthed, on the napery's snow,
With a crash and a thud, rolled -- the Head of the Boh!

And gummed to the scalp was a letter which ran: --
               "IN FIELDING FORCE SERVICE.
                   Encampment,
                              10th Jan.

"Dear Sir, -- I have honour to send, as you said,
For final approval (see under) Boh's Head;

"Was took by myself in most bloody affair.
By High Education brought pressure to bear.

"Now violate Liberty, time being bad,
To mail V.P.P. (rupees hundred) Please add

"Whatever Your Honour can pass. Price of Blood
Much cheap at one hundred, and children want food;

"So trusting Your Honour will somewhat retain
True love and affection for Govt. Bullock Train,

"And show awful kindness to satisfy me,
       I am,
            Graceful Master,
                         Your
                            H. MUKERJI."

    .    .    .    .    .

As the rabbit is drawn to the rattlesnake's power,
As the smoker's eye fills at the opium hour,

As a horse reaches up to the manger above,
As the waiting ear yearns for the whisper of love,

From the arms of the Bride, iron-visaged and slow,
The Captain bent down to the Head of the Boh.

And e'en as he looked on the Thing where It lay
'Twixt the winking new spoons and the napkins' array,

The freed mind fled back to the long-ago days --
The hand-to-hand scuffle -- the smoke and the blaze --

The forced march at night and the quick rush at dawn --
The banjo at twilight, the burial ere morn --

The stench of the marshes -- the raw, piercing smell
When the overhand stabbing-cut silenced the yell --

The oaths of his Irish that surged when they stood
Where the black crosses hung o'er the Kuttamow flood.

As a derelict ship drifts away with the tide
The Captain went out on the Past from his Bride,

Back, back, through the springs to the chill of the year,
When he hunted the Boh from Maloon to Tsaleer.

As the shape of a corpse dimmers up through deep water,
In his eye lit the passionless passion of slaughter,

And men who had fought with O'Neil for the life
Had gazed on his face with less dread than his wife.

For she who had held him so long could not hold him --
Though a four-month Eternity should have controlled him --

But watched the twin Terror -- the head turned to head --
The scowling, scarred Black, and the flushed savage Red --

The spirit that changed from her knowing and flew to
Some grim hidden Past she had never a clue to.

But It knew as It grinned, for he touched it unfearing,
And muttered aloud, "So you kept that jade earring!"

Then nodded, and kindly, as friend nods to friend,
"Old man, you fought well, but you lost in the end."

    .    .    .    .    .

The visions departed, and Shame followed Passion: --
"He took what I said in this horrible fashion,

"I'll write to Harendra!" With language unsainted
The Captain came back to the Bride. . .who had fainted.

    .    .    .    .    .

And this is a fiction? No. Go to Simoorie
And look at their baby, a twelve-month old Houri,

A pert little, Irish-eyed Kathleen Mavournin --
She's always about on the Mall of a mornin' --

And you'll see, if her right shoulder-strap is displaced,
This: Gules upon argent, a Boh's Head, erased!


* Value Payable Parcels Post: in which the Government collects the money for the sender.


Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 04:27 PM

let me just say that Im not in favor of a war on Iraq, but
would like to see Saddam toppled, if only you could assassinate just him.
(because if youre going to say that a war will cause dead civilians, then how many deaths has Saddam and his crew caused, (gassing the Kurds, the Shia minority, the marsh arabs not to mention all the carnage from the Iran/Iraq war, invasion of Kuwait etc.)
One question: how many out there believe Israel was justified in bombing the Osirak Reactor in 1981?

Ironically the US and the European community condemned the attack - but tacitly approved.
(Im sure that the Gulf war would have been quite different
if the Israelis hadnt done it)

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 05:40 PM

Well this pool has done the trick
PBR just announced that war odds shifted from 60 40 to 40 60%less likely.
The problem is Turkey.

They are not rolling over and letting troops mass their automatically.
They are foot dragging as the pentagon says.
They are actually obeying their own constitution to vote on it.

Rumsfeld said today that "war is absolutely not imminent, why would you say that!".

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:46 PM

Elvis veils evils...better late than never.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 06:50 PM

elvis veils lives...did we do that one yet?

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jan 03 - 07:48 PM

NOPE! Previous offering in this vein: "Elvis lives evils."

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM

On the forum Maestronet.com they have decided as a group to have no more anti war discussions except for how the left has brought down this country.


this was my response


At the most perilous period in our country's history:

When Bush is asked about going to war, he responded "with which country?"

When our political "servants" and media shout the most duplicitous lies and incite nuclear brinksmanship.

When Islamo fascists are determined to convert the world back to Islam (which very nearly happened 1,300 years ago)

When those who do not know their history are condemned to reapeat it.

You want a truce, you want to turn over and say "whatever" and giggle.

Everything about the life you have been living is changing and a familiar refuge is understandably attractive.

But does that mean reality is to be abandonned?
People normally condemn drug addicts for that kind of escapism.
.......................................................

My New Years resolution was to add a sharper edge to my paintings and words to match the times we are imminently facing.

Every time I smell the scent of fundamentalism and fascism coming from my own Americans (the very kind of philisophy we are challenged by from the Al Quida) - I will condemn it.

The Germans used to say "we didn't know" but you can be assured there were dissenting voices and that they were silenced.


Look folks, India is now attempting to deport 22 million people (muslims) from Bangladesh.

We are rounding them up by the hundreds (LA being the most recent)

Bogus alerts about 5 muslim men sneaking in through Canada is mouthed by the President, FBI and media.

Real threats go undiscussed.

...................................................

The great musicicians of history like Casals, Stern, Pete Segar ... had a political legacy and voiced their opinions.

I would have expected the same from you...
because many of you are highly intelligent people of conscience.

Defend
Peace
through understanding

War
when there is none.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:03 PM

"The great musicicians of history like Casals, Stern, Pete Segar ... had a political legacy and voiced their opinions.

I would have expected the same from you...
because many of you are highly intelligent people of conscience."

I know exactly where you are coming from Donuel. Last month I started a thread asking what anti-war musicians here were doing in their communities to contribute to the anti-war cause, ie what organizations were people working with, were they doing CDs to raise money, benefit gigs, etc. Well, the response was very negative and damning of me personally (easy because I post anon), but I have said over and over again here how disillusioned I am with the American folk music community in this regard. It is as if everyone rolled over and played dead to the world in 1980.

My opinion of the American folk music scene has changed pretty dramatically in the wake of 9/11, and not for the better I am sad to say. Nowadays, the folk music scene seems to have many more politically conservative members than ever before, and many are openly hostile to any suggestion that folk music should be relevant to today's world (not "traditional" is what I hear over and over).

Not very encouraging, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,lurker
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 12:17 PM

"Highly intelligent people of conscience"? That's what you people consider yourselves to be? What a joke!!! I thought the people on the 'Peace' thread were out to lunch, but this adolescent male stupidity beats all!

Big Brother is watching you ...

Subject: UNSPEAKABLE EVIL
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 07:45 PM

In the cold of men's hearts
The power of all that is good
can be concentrated
to create unspeakable evil


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/icefire1.jpg


When darkness comes
the winds of intolerance
fans the flames
across a beautiful land

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 03 - 09:55 PM

I like the picute but Donuel you're still one sick bastard.

Betting on war, that's just sick and you are just stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:26 AM

Who would know better than you.

I guess you wouldn't be surprised that my Yahoo site cleared over $400,000 in bets ($150,000 in secured bets) and we are cruisin our way to be millionaires baby. And while you're still so gullible I have some time share opportunities for you on Daytona beach.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:24 PM

Donuel thank you for the beautiful picture. I really love it, and I love this world and the people in it, war or no war.

McGrath said something about how much more difficult it is for Americans who are working for peace than the rest of us, because they are the ones most vulnerable to the 'war-mongers' in their own country. I thought a long time about that, tried to imagine myself as an American right now and what it would feel like to be directly 'under the gun' of all the propoganda and social control mechanisms. I don't envy your position at all, and I can see how much more desperate you must feel than I do, and I feel desperate enough believe me. It helped me understand better the reasons for posting a thread like this.

Peace and best wishes to you

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:41 PM

McGrath said something about how much more difficult it is for Americans who are working for peace than the rest of us, because they are the ones most vulnerable to the 'war-mongers' in their own country.

I wouldn't put it that way. There are "warmongers", but ordinary people who get pulled into falling into line with a consensus (that is perhaps shaped by the warmongers) don't merit the term.

What I meant was that it seems pretty clear that in the States - unless we are being lied to by the media - there is an overwhelming amount of support for the idea that Bush has got it right, and that a war against Iraq is necessary. It's very hard to stand up against a consensus like that, whether you are in Berlin or London in 1914 or in the USA in 2003.

Outside the States it's equally clear that the proportion of people who see it like that is pretty small. in most countries anyway, including the one I live in (and indeed in the whole of Western Europe). That makes it a lot easier for us.

And it means that, if we get dragged into it by the Government - which doesn't need a vote in Partliament to go to war, it being that kind of "Parliamentary Democracy" - we won't have any excuse for not kicking up one hell of a fuss.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:46 PM

McGrath, you probably aren't seeing anything in your media about the hundreds of thousands of Americans who are right now actively working in a myriad of ways, to prevent the war from happening, ending the sanctions, seeking a just resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian crisis, fighting to expose the current administrations efforts to overthrow the elected government of Venezuela, etc.

As Che Guevara noted, some of us feel a sense of pride in our destiny to fight against these evils in the heart of the beast.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:51 PM

I'm sure everyone has seen the speculation in various news media as to whether Saddam should or might go into exile.

QUESTION: If he did flee, how long do you think it would be before the US marched in and took over in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:54 PM

I'm seeing enough to know it's happening, but also to be pretty clear that they're swimming against the tide, and I admire them all the morer for that.

Resistance to Vietnam was the same, until the body count got so high that the tide turned. I hope it doesn't have to be that way again.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 04:28 PM

So do we, McGrath. So do we.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:24 PM

Personally, I have no acquaintance (here in Calif.) who believes an attack on Iraq is the appropriate option. There is a phenomenon of broad acceptance that in times of conflict, showing solidarity with the government is warranted. (This is reinforced in the presence of external criticism.) Perhaps, and I'd like to naively believe, it is the same old phenomenon that we now witness in the bulk of the commercial media, unchanged in character from prior similar circumstances. It may be traditional that internal dissent in times of near crisis is voiced primarily through alternative channels. This is a much more comforting than believing we are entering a new era of MCarthyesque nationalism.

Now, if (?) the media is reporting "overwhelming support" which does not exist, the question of culpability for such misinformation is large, but amorphous. "The media" is far from monolithic. Lack of professionalism? Exacerbated by corporate control? I don't know. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: DougR
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:19 PM

I believe most polls show that the majority of the U. S. citizens are with the president. It is possible, you know, that the majority, not the minority is right on this issue. Impossible for most of you to believe, I know, but ...

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:45 AM

Back in the Nixon era the media was a pain in the ass to the administration. A crack appeared in their wall of lies when the Washington Post went ahead with Watergate even after being threatened. Today one by one, merger by merger the entire media has been bought by Military industrial companies like GE or corporations like Disney and Murdoch that have a go along to get along agreement with the government. The radio ownership is even more dramaticly right wing. These deliberate moves on the media is in part why the USA is becoming "by polls" a nation of sheeple.

We no longer even have a martyr for the left, and if we did, we would not hear about it on the media.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/easter.jpg

pic by don Hakman made yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM

WOW!    {{{ 8-( }}}    some art!

forgive them for they know not what they do

and even if they do know please forgive them anyway so you don't get pulled into their 'vile pool' of insanity

Thanks for the realism Donuel

Peace and hope and courage

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:12 PM

He he he ... my computer was finally able to load the 'mothersmilk' pic today ... that is funny!

{{{ 8-) }}} daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

That's a majority for making war if the inspections turn up any evidence to confirm the alleagtions that Saddam has those weapons, Doug, or a majority for making war whatever happens, so long as Bush says so?

The impression we are getting here is that it is the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:21 PM

According to the polls that DougR cites, there is only majority support for Bush's plans IF it is done multi-laterally and with UN support. When you take away the latter, the poll numbers drop precipitously.

Just to throw a wrench in the works, I see the BBC is reporting today that:

"The UK would not join American unilateral military action against Iraq, according to International Development Secretary Clare Short.
Ms Short said the UK had a duty to try to keep the world united over the Iraq crisis and ensure the danger of Saddam Hussein was only tackled through the United Nations.

Other ministers have shied away from saying whether or not the UK would join America if it decided to act alone against Iraq."

I believe Bush could still get away with not having UN support, if he can keep Blair with him.   But if both the UN and the UK refuse to support an invasion, Bush and the boys will be WAY out on a limb. I'm not convinced they would do it without clear, enthusiastic support from one or the other. I think what they want very badly, for the sake of the upcoming 2004 elections, is the support of both the UN and the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 02:57 PM

The question would be whether Blair could hold his party together if he were to back a war by Bush which didn't have the backing of the UN Security Council, and went against the finding of the arms inspectors.

He doesn't have to have a vote in parliament to go to war, but at some point there'd be a vote where he'd be in danger of having to turn to the Tories to protect his majority.

But see this story for another reason he might be a bit hesitant.

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:13 PM

Powell has done his best at slowing down the process while Powell's son organizes the FCC to march in step with the Bush goose step. The Pentagon is warning Bush against becoming a first strike nation.
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_1587.shtml
Bush will be giving his adolescent tantrums "Ima getin sick an tired ... I aint gonna watch this movie...etc.

The one ally remains to be UK.
Iraq gave Russia a better deal than the US. That leaves what we have promised China in Iraqi oil and a seat at the table.
That is if Russia stands off at lets their share evaporate.

Bush still wants jan 31 but may throw caution to the wind and go feb 15 even if it means leaving the UN.


This is my painting of the legacy that the Bush family will bring the world...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushg.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:46 PM

I have a politically-aware friend who's been saying February since last summer... I think he's going to sweep the pool!

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:20 AM

I love reading old predictions.

If I haven't overlooked a post all predictions giving a date point to January or February.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:38 AM

Aha! So much for Mudcattian powers of prophecy! It's kinda fun, but spending one's energy in the here and now is probably more productive in the long run ...

So, are we still taking bids or what?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The War betting pool
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:39 PM

I did predict that we would never let the UN security council vote to occur.

Here is my take on Bush severing ties...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/water1.jpg