BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?

Subject: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:52 PM

We've been discussing the cathartic nature of many folk/trad songs, so my metaphor riddled brain, adled as it is with overreaching implications, naurally jumped beyond conclusions to the next 'logical' question...

If catharsis is fundementally healing... Why do we seek and crave beauty? ...and what does it do for us? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

the same thing

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:05 PM

A few years ago, I decided that one of my purposes in life would be to try to increase the amount of beauty in the world to whatever extent I am able. It's been an interesting process, and I've learned a lot and had a lot of fun. Sometimes it's been a little heart-rending also. All in all, I'd say it was a good idea and I'll try to carry on with it as long as I am able.

So for me, "beauty" has been a really good reason to keep going even when there was very little else to keep me going.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:09 PM

to expand a bit more on what I said above - The sight of beauty can *be* catharsis; more often it is balm for a wound; heat for the chilly, a candle in the darness.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:09 PM

Well it does help us to recognize 'ugly' when we see it. And when the trials of everyday living start grinding me down, most often it's the beauty of nature that 'restoreth my soul', make me glad I'm alive and here to experience it. Beauty produces joy, for me anyway.

But beauty can be just as much of a trial as it's opposite though. I mean, look at Princess Diana for example ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM

now y'see - i always thought she looked plastic and fake.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:20 PM

I don't think much of beauty, actually. I see it largely as a superficial, seductive glamour, and not much more. It flees and fades much too quickly to be deeply satisfying. It also tends to denouce/deny the powerful and violent nature of reality, in it's rush to settle into the comfort and coziness of delusion too easily, for my tastes.

On the other hand, I do value catharsis as a means of deep, abiding, and profound transformation, which sometimes in wonderous things, like a genuine compassion and empathy, or the expression of joy which, to me, is much more authentic than beauty.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Allan C.
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:26 PM

For some reason I am reminded of my favorite comeback. I heard it as two women were entering through the same doorway.

"Age before beauty"
"Beauty was a horse!"


But more seriously, whenever I find that the world around me is getting me down I go for a walk in the woods. In almost no time at all, after seeing the many beauties there, I am renewed.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:26 PM

No satisfaction in a sunset? No sense of violence in the sun glistening across the fur of a great cat while stalking? Comfort in the stark beauty of the badlands, or the wind etched stones of the Painted Sesert?

I think mayhaps your definition of beauty is a bit too narrow. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:27 PM

It also tends to denouce/deny the powerful and violent nature of reality...

Not necessarily. Many people find beauty in thunderstorms and volcanoes. Beauty is such a subjective thing anyway. Someone once told me that I should try to find the beauty in chaos. That process was a real eye-opener.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:31 PM

I just feel sorrow for Diana. Trying to embody all the cultural standards and expectations re 'beauty' obviously did nothing for her health or happiness. As a woman, I appreciate the lessons of her short life.

Although I was never one to idolize public figures, collecting paraphenalia or anything like that, when she died I couldn't belief the grief I felt. I honestly felt like I had lost a sister or something ... flaky as that may sound.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:34 PM

...on a side note, one of the things that attracted me early on my husband, JtS, when we were getting to know one another on-line was when he said to me, "you have a beautiful soul". As far as I can see, it takes a beautiful soul to see the beauty of other souls. I had already formed the opinion that he had a beautiful soul, but that was a really good confirmation for me.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:36 PM

Carol, that's just beautiful! Thank you ...

:-) daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM

Everyone has a beautiful soul! The trouble is, there's usually this busy defensive little mind standing in front of it, obscuring the issue, but if you can see past the mind, well then...beauty!

Beauty is based on balance, movement, vitality, abundance, fruitfullness, liveliness, calm, fertility, wisdom, kindness, courage, truth, stillness, harmony, melody, strength, gentleness, generosity, honesty, and every other wondrous quality you can name.

"Only when you see nothing but beauty will you have seen the Truth"

And one other thing: the Soul casts no shadow.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:06 PM

Everyone has a beautiful soul!

I can't disagree with that. I do think that some people are really good at hiding the beauty of their soul for one reason or another. For a lifemate and partner, I think I'm more compatible with someone who wants me to see the beauty of their soul than I am with someone who wants to hide it from me.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

LH - I'd have to disagree - I've known some people with truly vile souls - and they cast huge shadows.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:23 PM

My very own belief...

To bring beauty into the world requires and instills inspiration... whereas cartharsis is a kind of reaction... I sincerely believe that if we all create beauty every day, the world improves... and if we feed the melodrama machine everyday, nothing improves. Am I barmy or what? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:27 PM

Ttr - barmy? If so - go for it man! What you said is just wonderful.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:32 PM

MM:

Truly vile souls? Forgive me but any soul will look vile when it is in the throes of torment, just as any car will look like a mess just after it has been in a head-to-head collision with a Jimmy or a White. But that is not the soul you ar elooking at, but the transient waves of emotion and confusion that are borne from doing battle. It is true that some people have a real hard time leaving battles behind in their porper place in time, and carry them around eternally trying to solve them, which makes them act really dumb and ugly, but I am assured, for WIW, that these are not the characteristics of the being but only of his current embattlement, whether rational or not.

As for beauty, GUEST's defintion is meretricious. The actual high-frequency phenomenon of beauty is the only driver that makes waking up in the morning worth the effort, IMNSHO...

Pompous A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM

okay - "whose current incarnation gives every evidence of having a truly vile soul"

Personally I don't think the one in particular I am thinking of could come clean in a million incarnations.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:41 PM

Wel.l..l mebbe you're right, there. MM. Wise to forgive, but only after you've rendered them harmless! :>) Knowing what they could be potentially is no excuse to be fooled about what they're busy being at the moment, which in this case sounds like a pure-dee sphincter!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

I disagree that everyone HAS a beautiful soul. Perhaps, though everyone has the POTENTIAL to have a beautiful soul. It's hard to think of someone like, say, Ted Bundy, and imagine he had a beautiful soul.

Beauty isn't just about glamour. It's about all the things that make you feel happy, all the things that put you in awe.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM

in total thread drift - this particular person is the only one I have EVER met that I would willingly, cheerfully and at the slightest provocation condemn to eternal torment if it were in my power. Preferably after a long period of public and excrutiating pain. 'nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:03 PM

IMHO, glamour is the peversion of beauty... It may be worth conjecturing here on whether 'true' beauty has a purpose, or if the beautiful remains as such only by it's innocence, and it's transcendence of human preference... of course it may just depend on which humans we're preferring! ;^) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:27 PM

Well, to suggest that an argument being put forth that beauty is often a superficial human value, is a superficial argument (with a fancier word), is pretty superficial when it isn't put forth with some counter-argument, now isn't it?

I am talking "Truth and Beauty" in the Romantic/Rousseau sense. Like I said, no thanks. There are much greater human attributes/values than those two slippery slopes--attributes and values which are much more constant, enlightened, and satisfying, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:47 PM

I've of late come to an understanding – or at least, one that suffices me- as to why each person, whether vile or godly, is of equal value in the overall scheme, whether Hitler or Mother Teresa or shades between.

Take Hitler (please!). Bad as he acted in that incarnation, his basic soul remained beautiful. For whatever reason, he, or another entity, failed his soul. The soul is what keeps returning to its base after each incarnation and it is the entity that keeps trying again, in its next incarnation. And each soul is worthy of respect.

This is also why we cannot, finally, judge anyone else. They have problems enough! (I cannot imagine anyone being born with the plan of leaving the world in a greater mess than when s/he entered it.)

I have trouble elucidating my take on this, so I'll understand anyone who takes great umbrage with it. But it does work for me. I'm no longer nearly as quick to dismiss someone with whom I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:02 PM

Beauty can often take us out of ourselves, which is often the best place to be. Ugliness has it's function, too. Wing tip shoes, a great oil refinery at night, a horned toad; the list is endless and they all have their charms.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:15 PM

Guest 3:27... even grumpy old snits have beautiful souls! ;^) gimme some examples of things that far outway truth and beauty, will ya bro? Educate this willing heart, turn me on with finer art... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:28 PM

Ebbie, re: your 03:47 PM post; you made perfect sense to me. I can't find anything to disagree with there.

TtR, I agree with your 02:23 PM post.

Something I want to add to my last post...

It's also really gratifying to have a partner who looks beyond the surface to find beauty.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:34 PM

CarolC, in your 6:28, I was stimulated to say out loud, "...yeh, and that CarolC's got it all! ;^) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 09:11 PM

Well said, Ebbie. You hit the nail right on the head.

Mario - Yeah, brother, I know exactly what you mean, but that's not the Soul you're speaking of...it's the thinking, calculating mind...and the mind can indeed be utterly vile in some people...as long as it remains in a vile, or as Amos has indicated, a tortured and separated state of consciousness.

The trouble is, most people are consciously dominated almost exclusively by their mind, and the ones who are most dominated by it (and proudest of it) usually have no idea that they even have a Soul or that anyone else does either!

Put it this way. The mind is that consciousness that says: I am here and I am me...alone...and I am irrevocably separate from everything and everyone else that I perceive. I am small and in danger. Continual danger. I don't have enough...enough food, money, sex, property, power, security, love, respect, and all the other stuff I want in order to be out of danger...so I have got to scheme and use any means at hand to GET enough of these things I want. Everyone else is either a threat...or they're an opportunity for me to gain something I want. If they're more powerful than me, then I will either find a way to placate and serve them or I will wait for a chance to stab them in the back and usurp their power. If they're less powerful, then I will use them for my own advantage. I am important, they are not. But...it's important for me to appear the way other people want me to appear while I set about doing what I have to do (looking out for number 1), because then I will be fairly SAFE. It's important to conceal my real motives from them, cos if they knew the REAL me, the game would be up. They would despise me or destroy me or reject me.

Now that's a pretty unhealthy mind I just described, because it's in constant great fear, but it is really fairly typical of the human mind in general, when left entirely to itself, believing it is completely alone.

It's basic statements are: I FEAR. I NEED. I WANT.

The Soul says I Am. I always have been and always shall be. I am not the body, but I am for now in the body. I am not only in me, I am in everyone and everything, and they are in me, and we are very much the same. We are of one Soul. Therefore I love them as I love myself, and I have entirely enough of what I need, and I joyfully share it with all others who, like me, are embodied individually in this beautiful experience of Life. I am sacred, so are they, and so is all of Life. I cannot die.

It's basic statements: I Love. I am Love. I already have everything I could ever need.

The Soul casts no shadow. A physical body in the presence of a partial light does cast a visible shadow, and a mind can look out through physical eyes at that shadow and decide (for whatever reason) that the shadow is realer and more powerful than the light, when the shadow is truly...nothing at all. Minds are capable of being entranced by shadows, dedicating themselves to darkness, and falling into absolute chaos. There lies madness, murder, and a form of spiritual death...but not the death of the Soul. Only the complete denial of the Soul.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 09:48 PM

Little Hawk George, you is okay in my book.
Amos: Truer words you have never written, even if they were facetious. (I printed that one out to use tomorrow. Might tape it to the computer.)
ttr: thanks for this. It has been a good ending to a tough day.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:21 PM

Thanks Thomas. What a nice thing to say :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:12 PM

She liked it! She liked it! Well it ain't flattery if I believe it's true... and I do...
Wow Little, I found your micro-dissertation on the soul to be most agreeable... thanks! You reminded me of a book..."Life is only real, then, when I am".
Beauty is the test of us... truth will win the best of us. ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:23 PM

Glad you liked it, Thomas. And, yeah, Carol pretty well does have it all!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Peg
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:58 AM

It seems that one idea I am seeing expressed in this thread is that the ability and capacity to appreciate beauty is itself an even more desirable and significant virtue than beauty itself!

I got some very bad news today about two different friends and am reeling from it. But I know if I go for a long hike in the snow tomorrow it will rejuvenate me in ways that no drug, crying jag, counselling session, glass-breaking party or ice cream binge ever could...that's what the beauty of nature does for me. Gives me my life back.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:16 AM

Thomas the Rhymer, since you asked...

I don't think "Truth and Beauty", in the sense I am speaking of them, are attributes/values of a human scale. For that reason, I value honesty and candor over Truth, and character and meaning over Beauty.

Now, that is not to say I don't have an appreciation of (B)beauty or beautiful things. I believe we all do. I am just saying that, for me, beauty is a transient, fleeting thing. Rather like being nice. Most everyone is basically nice, and there are plenty of beautiful things to point to in this world. But neither of those two things are of lasting value, nor do they teach me things I don't know about. They don't show us how to build a better world, or foster better relationships (even being nice can't gloss over difficulties, estrangements, etc).

I don't suppose I've made myself at all clear. I'm not trying to diss anyone's choices here. I'm just saying that beauty is not high on my list of things I value. Many attributes like integrity, empathy, genuineness and sincerety, compassion, generosity...so many attributes that I suppose most people would never put before beauty. But beauty and grace are two things that many philosophies and religions warn against worshipping, and for very good reason, in my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:30 AM

Fleeting - this morning; the dawn was unusual and incredible - the EASTERN sky was light and clear blue - however the WESTERN horizon was banded in incredible shades of blue, mauve, pinks, purples, pearl opelescent - from almost due north to almost due south. a few minutes later the clouds were all outlined in glowing gold.

Incredible! and a little wierd - since at dawn the display is normally in the Eastern skies.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:43 AM

( ...now I'm blushing) Thanks LH!

Many attributes like integrity, empathy, genuineness and sincerety, compassion, generosity...

I find these attributes beautiful. So I don't experience quite the same kinds of distinctions as you.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:49 AM

"I find these attributes beautiful. So I don't experience quite the same kinds of distinctions as you."

OK, but then...is beauty all there is? Beauty is an attribute which supercedes or transcends all others? Including love and joy?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:54 AM

I can't speak for you, but I find beauty in all attributes that are pleasing to me. That includes love and joy.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM

Naw, it's just a wave-length, like blue only a million times finer.

But boy, does it make a difference!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:05 AM

So CarolC, it seems to me then, if I am understanding what you are saying, that beauty is the highest/greatest human value in your worldview?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:11 AM

I'd say it's more a by-product of something. Light is a by-product of the nuclear reactions that take place in the sun. Beauty is, for me, a by-product of something else. I don't know if I can quantify or qualify just what it is that I think beauty is a by-product of, though. I think if I did that, I would probably be getting into the realm of the mystical, and that may not be your bag.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

CarolC, the realm of the mystical and spiritual, to me, is a practical one. Those things that are manifest in the everyday, in the commonplace. For me, spiritual practice is actively doing, rather than contemplatively being, although I am a reflective, thoughtful person.

I lean towards the chaos theory end of the mystical spectrum, more than Eastern or Western philosophies which value the search for beauty, order, and harmony.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM

I guess what I'm saying is that to my way of thinking, beauty is a subjective thing. What I find beautiful, you may not. Maybe you find beauty in chaos. Maybe that's why you like that end of the mystical spectrum. On the other hand, maybe you don't. Some people find beauty in mathmatices. Mathmatics give me a headache.

To me, there are as many different realities as there are individuated consciousnesses who think in terms of "realities".

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:42 AM

If all souls are beautiful, does that mean Hell is empty? I don't meant that to be sarcastic at all, I'm just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:45 AM

Beauty is wholly subjective, as is truth. Which is why I find them to be too idiosyncratic and discordant, rather than unifying. I agree that there are many realities, many individuated consciousnesses. But I'm looking for order, for unifying values.

We can't all agree on what is beautiful. Nor do I think we can get everyone to agree that beauty is a positive value/attribute. There are enough people who feel uncomfortable with declaring that to be "true" in absolute, or even relative terms. I can agree to beauty being a postive value/attribute in conditional terms I guess. But that is about as far as I'm willing to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:49 AM

What is Hell though??? I don't believe that Hell exists in the same way that a Christian beleives it exists. Everyone has a soul and everyone is beautiful in one way or another.

The beauty of nature is a wonderful thing. I grew up in Yorkshire and could always go walking in the woods or the hills and feel absolutely wonderful. I live in London now and sometimes get 'tetchy' at the lack of trees etc in the city.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM

But I'm looking for order, for unifying values.

*grin* Now I'm confused. I thought you preferred chaos ;-)

Kim C, some people believe that hell is a reality or a state of mind that is created by the person experiencing it.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 12:24 PM

Just musing here... Isn't Beauty the result when someone/something is true to itself? For instance, there are breeds of dogs I don't particularly care for- but I do recognize excellence in some of those dogs, based on the fact that they look/act just as they were bred to.

Maybe that is an offshoot of the feeling that Beauty is Truth.

One of the odd things that sometimes occurs to me is the jolt to reality in the presence of what I perceive as beautiful, and I have to face the fact that the reason I/humankind see it as beautiful is that I was programmed to do so. If I were programmed to see something ugly- a grievous facial wound on a weeping child, say, or discordant, clashing, violent sounds perhaps- as beautiful, that's what I would see. Scary. Maybe that is what some monsters out there do see...

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM

All I know is, things that I think are beautiful, make me happy. Everything else is open for debate. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 12:44 PM

I'm all for the strong vitrues you've brought forth ''guest'... But, like CarolC, I am strongly committed to the beauty that eminates from such strength of character... The point Peg made is a good one... If we develop our acute understanding of beauty, and perceive it generously, we are doing something remarkable. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

In a world dominated by melodrama, power, and fear; armor is coveted... and beauty 'tis but a side show to (or a prize for) the main attraction... Whatever the current one is... but the witnessing of beauty is virtually unimportant to the 'trying times of the day'. Meanwhile, the entire human showcase is being highlighted, and transcended, by a tiny fraction of beauty's potential... It may be our ability to perceive this, that sets the 'better ball' rolling... d'ya think?^) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM

Kim - No, hell is full of tortured minds, that's all! Hell can be in the trim and tidy house next door, at the workplace, in the alleyway, in a jail, on a battlefield, in a classroom, and yes, in certain spiritual dimensions usually termed as "the Astral Worlds" in the traditions I am most familiar with. The Astral Worlds, by the way, run the gamut...from the heavenly to the etherial to the mundane to the gloomy to the absolutely hellish...just the way physical life does! They're not physical, that's all. They are mental. They are realms of thought, and when minds leave the physical body (or extend themselves from it a certain amount, as in dreaming) they can have experiences in the Astral Worlds. I had such a dream last night, and it was quite spooky in parts...very intriguing. I seem to have fairly good protection when I'm in the nastier places, fortunately.

The primary ingredient of hell is Fear, coupled with a sense of extreme limitation.

As long as the mind considers itself to be the ultimate intelligence, and the one and only king of its reality, and alone and vulnerable at the same time...then it is in a hell of its own making.

It's kind of like one cell in an elephant being completely unaware that it's harmoniously united with the whole rest of the elephant at all times. Given free will in such a circumstance, that cell may in fear begin behaving like a cancer cell, in order to supposedly protect itself. This makes it dangerous to itself and possibly the whole rest of the elephant...on a physical level, at any rate.

GUEST - Sounds like you're focusing mainly on physical outward beauty as seen by the eye, which is generally described as "skin deep". I'd say that joy and love are beautiful feelings or states of mind...but you can't exactly see them...or can you? Well, you can see the effect they have on a person, that's for sure.

Honesty is a beautiful characteristic. Dishonesty is an ugly one.

And so it goes.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:34 PM

Don't make the mistake of thinking there isn't order in chaos! Look at fractals, for instance...

I am interested in "life between" dualities like beautiful and ugly. I am interested in things that have a symmetry of both the simple and the complex. I am interested in patterns, and how they are perpetually changing to reorder and repeat themselves, even though they are never exactly the same way twice. That ole "self-organization out of chaos" thing. I know one thing--I sure wouldn't want to live in a world without negative feedback.

I believe "what is beautiful" is culturally based, learned behavior.

As to the maxim "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" I would counter it with another maxim "Beauty is only skin deep."

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:45 PM

As to the maxim "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" I would counter it with another maxim "Beauty is only skin deep."

But I'm looking for order, for unifying values.

You're going to experience beauty in whatever way you experience it. One thing I would be almost willing to bet money on, though. You will probably not ever find any "unifying values" with regard to beauty (at least not any universal ones), or find anything "unifying" (universally) with regard to anything that can be defined as a "value".

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:58 PM

CarolC, I'm talking in chaos theory terms of unifying--in the sense of self-organizing to create structures out of chaos. Think hurricanes and tornadoes. When I used the word "unify" I meant it as the literal coming together of many factors at once. Like the way a hurricane transforms reality by self-organizing specific sorts of patterns out of chaos, giving birth to a structured form in nature we call a hurricane.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:05 PM

So you're saying that you want to find patterns in human nature that you can look at in terms of "transform(ing) reality by self-organizing specific sorts of patterns out of chaos, giving birth to a structured form in (human behavoir)?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:14 PM

I woudl submit for reflection that the source of beauty is no structure, or wavelength, but attention itself, when it is free to operate at its highest order. Thus in chaos, beauty will unfold (the harmonie of Fibonacci series, for example, entrances) providing the Viewer is able to appreciate what is there to be beheld. That ability ranges from the sublime to the ridiculous in our species and in the spectrum of spiritual states we find ourselves in.

The funny thing, of course, is that a potentially highly spiritual being who is so beaten down as to be able to appreciate nothing more refined, say , than sex or eating, will still assert he is finding beauty in sex and in eating. And the deep psycho, whether acute or chronic, can drool over the beauty he sees in destruction and havoc.

So in a way, to answer the thread question, what beauty does for us is to reveal to us how right we always knew we were all along! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:14 PM

Add "in nature" to "in human behavior" and you've got it.

I think chaos theory explains a lot about human behavior and nature, and that they mirror each other. Living beings don't act the same way individually as they do en masse. Think termites, bees, kids on a playground, people on Mudcat. We undergo chemical changes and behavioral changes in the company of others like ourselves. We leave a marker of some sort to let others like us to follow, find, and join us so we can do our group thing. In cyberspace, one way we do it is through links.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:17 PM

Buber dealt with chaos in the "Whirlpool" dialogue in his early work "Daniel." And beauty seems to have many faces: there is the beauty of fractals and Chaos Theory, but there is also the beauty of light reflecting from oil drops on a pool of water. One doesn't negate the other, but allows us to appreciate beauty to the depths of our understanding and ability.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM

In some areas of mystical thought, GUEST, the concepts you are referring to can be looked at using the concept of "collective consciousness" (maybe you already knew that). That's a whole other interesting subject to talk about, in my opinion. But I think beauty can be discussed just as interestingly from the personal perspective, if that's what the people discussing it want to do.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM

Rapaire, I never suggested that beauty was negated. I said it wasn't an attribute (maybe I should change the word to aesthetic?) I particularly value over most others. The thread question is "what has beauty ever done for us?" and that is the question I'm concerning myself with here, not whether beauty is good, bad, neutral, etc.

Back to the cultural basis of beauty, one thing fine artists (as an example) are "trained" to do is to appreciate aesthetics, often taught through both art history (here are examples), and through training to see and mimic things in specific ways, ie technique (here is how to do it to make it look like that).

That to me is a good example of how we are culturally trained from infancy to define beauty--it is done according to what the people we live with say is beautiful, pretty, nice, etc.

We also are socially conditioned to perceive beauty in gender specific ways too. That "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" dynamic is in some ways gender specific, particularly when we are being conditioned to "appreciate" beauty in potential mates.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

Looking at your 10 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM post, I think I would have to say that you and I have very different definitions of the word "beauty".

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

Beautifully put, Amos!

There's also the question of paradox...the simultaneous existence of things apparently contradictory...and that can be very illuminating. So, in order there is chaos and in chaos there is order...if you see it.

If God is All That Is...then what "is not"? What would the Is Not be like if it was? It would be Not Like everything that is. The mind looks at things and divides them up into "this" and "that", "here" and "there", "us" and "them", "up" and "down", and so on. Duality springs from the separated mind (ego) observing reality from a single vantage point along a line or in a field. But...all dualities can be seen as the opposite ends of a single curve or field. Hot and cold for example are the opposite ends of a curve called "temperature". Beauty and ugliness are the opposite ends of a similar curve. What is its name?

There is something else involved besides "here" and "there"...there is the space in between and the space all around what is here and what is there. That space is the One (the field), and it is inclusive of both what is here and what is there, plus what is between them, inside them, and all around them, yet it is in itself entirely insubstantial, and immeasurable in its entirety. It's a measureless, featureless field of existence. That's what some people call God, but someone else might call it the space-time continuum or some other term such as the Absolute.

People who have been oppressed by organized religion or heard bad things about it from someone else (like their parents or peer group) usually have a gut hostility to the word "God", but they may feel quite comfortable with some other word that essentially means the same thing. It's always interesting to observe what sets people off that way. They react strongly to the cover, but seldom read the book.

Take it away, Amos, I'm short of time here...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:03 PM

"you and I have very different definitions of the word "beauty"

This is getting circular now. That is one of the reasons why I said I didn't find beauty to be a thing of great value to me. It is too individualistic and idiosyncratic on the one hand, and too culturally determined on the other, to be a unifying concept. That doesn't mean I look at it in oppositional terms though, and say that it is divisive.

It is sort of like the play between harmony and dissonance in music. All harmony no dissonance might be pleasing to the ear for awhile, but if you had to live your whole life listening only to harmony...AAAIIIIEEE!

I'm beginning to think this thread has become work avoidance people! Shouldn't we all be out shovelling snow or something?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:08 PM

We're just having a bit of fun. If you don't enjoy it, you don't have to play with us.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:12 PM

Thanks CarolC. I really needed you to explain that to me.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:13 PM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:16 PM

I just DID shovel some snow. Now I'm about to go out and buy copy paper, printer ink, and pick up an ergonomic office chair to help my posture. Then I must pay some bills and check the mail.

Happy?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:22 PM

The problem with labeling something like that, LH, as you know full well, is that to do so you must assume the role of labeler. That immediately places you in an arbitrary subdivision of reduced perspective, which is one of the reasons most philophers so tedious and circular.

THere are two songs in the Mudcat Songbook which capture this to some degree. One is called "Bring Down the Walls", and the other, "The Wilderness Trail".

So I done took it away and put it back already for ya, good buddy, and I hope that chair helps your back!! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:56 PM

Autistic savants often have specialized music ability. One question I would posit to all of you then is, does an autistic savant with music genius of some sort, sense beauty in the music, or are they simply using the structures of music as a bifurcation point, or as some other means of self-organizing out of chaos?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:02 PM

This is getting circular now. That is one of the reasons why I said I didn't find beauty to be a thing of great value to me. It is too individualistic and idiosyncratic on the one hand, and too culturally determined on the other, to be a unifying concept. That doesn't mean I look at it in oppositional terms though, and say that it is divisive.

Now Guest... To tell you the truth, It is not a matter of consequence to anyone but the beholder what they take for 'beautiful'... My feeling about your point of view is probably irrelevent to the intensity of your appreciation of the beauty in your sphere of pursiuts... I have great faith in your quest! Go for it! It's the phrase "beauty is only skin deep..." that is our cultural heritage... (and the rest too '...but ugly is to the bone')... not the various subjective realities of beauty in and of themselves. In matters of improvement, beauty is somewhere nearby... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 06:28 PM

the above posting should have been notated that the first paragraph is a quote from -guest 3:03-... sorry for the confusion (my epitaph perhaps?)...

Bifurcation point? Well, though it may be though by many to be my highest goal in life to be an 'autistic savant' musician, it would be absurd to declare myself such... My shoddy musicianship turns the lights out on savant, and my work kicks the autistic out on it's ass... and so, I am really unqualified to engage you on this one... sorry...

In the most general sense tho, I have a vague presumption surfacing that says "true beauty is unaware of itself" ...and by so being, the 'autistic savant's' music may just be an ordinary thing for it's creator... while being extrordinary to it's listeners... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 06:38 PM

"I have a vague presumption surfacing..."

Cool.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:54 PM

I'm ba-a-a-a-ck!~