BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?

Subject: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:52 PM

We've been discussing the cathartic nature of many folk/trad songs, so my metaphor riddled brain, adled as it is with overreaching implications, naurally jumped beyond conclusions to the next 'logical' question...

If catharsis is fundementally healing... Why do we seek and crave beauty? ...and what does it do for us? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

the same thing

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:05 PM

A few years ago, I decided that one of my purposes in life would be to try to increase the amount of beauty in the world to whatever extent I am able. It's been an interesting process, and I've learned a lot and had a lot of fun. Sometimes it's been a little heart-rending also. All in all, I'd say it was a good idea and I'll try to carry on with it as long as I am able.

So for me, "beauty" has been a really good reason to keep going even when there was very little else to keep me going.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:09 PM

to expand a bit more on what I said above - The sight of beauty can *be* catharsis; more often it is balm for a wound; heat for the chilly, a candle in the darness.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:09 PM

Well it does help us to recognize 'ugly' when we see it. And when the trials of everyday living start grinding me down, most often it's the beauty of nature that 'restoreth my soul', make me glad I'm alive and here to experience it. Beauty produces joy, for me anyway.

But beauty can be just as much of a trial as it's opposite though. I mean, look at Princess Diana for example ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM

now y'see - i always thought she looked plastic and fake.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:20 PM

I don't think much of beauty, actually. I see it largely as a superficial, seductive glamour, and not much more. It flees and fades much too quickly to be deeply satisfying. It also tends to denouce/deny the powerful and violent nature of reality, in it's rush to settle into the comfort and coziness of delusion too easily, for my tastes.

On the other hand, I do value catharsis as a means of deep, abiding, and profound transformation, which sometimes in wonderous things, like a genuine compassion and empathy, or the expression of joy which, to me, is much more authentic than beauty.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Allan C.
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:26 PM

For some reason I am reminded of my favorite comeback. I heard it as two women were entering through the same doorway.

"Age before beauty"
"Beauty was a horse!"


But more seriously, whenever I find that the world around me is getting me down I go for a walk in the woods. In almost no time at all, after seeing the many beauties there, I am renewed.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:26 PM

No satisfaction in a sunset? No sense of violence in the sun glistening across the fur of a great cat while stalking? Comfort in the stark beauty of the badlands, or the wind etched stones of the Painted Sesert?

I think mayhaps your definition of beauty is a bit too narrow. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:27 PM

It also tends to denouce/deny the powerful and violent nature of reality...

Not necessarily. Many people find beauty in thunderstorms and volcanoes. Beauty is such a subjective thing anyway. Someone once told me that I should try to find the beauty in chaos. That process was a real eye-opener.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:31 PM

I just feel sorrow for Diana. Trying to embody all the cultural standards and expectations re 'beauty' obviously did nothing for her health or happiness. As a woman, I appreciate the lessons of her short life.

Although I was never one to idolize public figures, collecting paraphenalia or anything like that, when she died I couldn't belief the grief I felt. I honestly felt like I had lost a sister or something ... flaky as that may sound.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:34 PM

...on a side note, one of the things that attracted me early on my husband, JtS, when we were getting to know one another on-line was when he said to me, "you have a beautiful soul". As far as I can see, it takes a beautiful soul to see the beauty of other souls. I had already formed the opinion that he had a beautiful soul, but that was a really good confirmation for me.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:36 PM

Carol, that's just beautiful! Thank you ...

:-) daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM

Everyone has a beautiful soul! The trouble is, there's usually this busy defensive little mind standing in front of it, obscuring the issue, but if you can see past the mind, well then...beauty!

Beauty is based on balance, movement, vitality, abundance, fruitfullness, liveliness, calm, fertility, wisdom, kindness, courage, truth, stillness, harmony, melody, strength, gentleness, generosity, honesty, and every other wondrous quality you can name.

"Only when you see nothing but beauty will you have seen the Truth"

And one other thing: the Soul casts no shadow.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:06 PM

Everyone has a beautiful soul!

I can't disagree with that. I do think that some people are really good at hiding the beauty of their soul for one reason or another. For a lifemate and partner, I think I'm more compatible with someone who wants me to see the beauty of their soul than I am with someone who wants to hide it from me.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

LH - I'd have to disagree - I've known some people with truly vile souls - and they cast huge shadows.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:23 PM

My very own belief...

To bring beauty into the world requires and instills inspiration... whereas cartharsis is a kind of reaction... I sincerely believe that if we all create beauty every day, the world improves... and if we feed the melodrama machine everyday, nothing improves. Am I barmy or what? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:27 PM

Ttr - barmy? If so - go for it man! What you said is just wonderful.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:32 PM

MM:

Truly vile souls? Forgive me but any soul will look vile when it is in the throes of torment, just as any car will look like a mess just after it has been in a head-to-head collision with a Jimmy or a White. But that is not the soul you ar elooking at, but the transient waves of emotion and confusion that are borne from doing battle. It is true that some people have a real hard time leaving battles behind in their porper place in time, and carry them around eternally trying to solve them, which makes them act really dumb and ugly, but I am assured, for WIW, that these are not the characteristics of the being but only of his current embattlement, whether rational or not.

As for beauty, GUEST's defintion is meretricious. The actual high-frequency phenomenon of beauty is the only driver that makes waking up in the morning worth the effort, IMNSHO...

Pompous A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM

okay - "whose current incarnation gives every evidence of having a truly vile soul"

Personally I don't think the one in particular I am thinking of could come clean in a million incarnations.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:41 PM

Wel.l..l mebbe you're right, there. MM. Wise to forgive, but only after you've rendered them harmless! :>) Knowing what they could be potentially is no excuse to be fooled about what they're busy being at the moment, which in this case sounds like a pure-dee sphincter!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

I disagree that everyone HAS a beautiful soul. Perhaps, though everyone has the POTENTIAL to have a beautiful soul. It's hard to think of someone like, say, Ted Bundy, and imagine he had a beautiful soul.

Beauty isn't just about glamour. It's about all the things that make you feel happy, all the things that put you in awe.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM

in total thread drift - this particular person is the only one I have EVER met that I would willingly, cheerfully and at the slightest provocation condemn to eternal torment if it were in my power. Preferably after a long period of public and excrutiating pain. 'nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:03 PM

IMHO, glamour is the peversion of beauty... It may be worth conjecturing here on whether 'true' beauty has a purpose, or if the beautiful remains as such only by it's innocence, and it's transcendence of human preference... of course it may just depend on which humans we're preferring! ;^) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:27 PM

Well, to suggest that an argument being put forth that beauty is often a superficial human value, is a superficial argument (with a fancier word), is pretty superficial when it isn't put forth with some counter-argument, now isn't it?

I am talking "Truth and Beauty" in the Romantic/Rousseau sense. Like I said, no thanks. There are much greater human attributes/values than those two slippery slopes--attributes and values which are much more constant, enlightened, and satisfying, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 03:47 PM

I've of late come to an understanding – or at least, one that suffices me- as to why each person, whether vile or godly, is of equal value in the overall scheme, whether Hitler or Mother Teresa or shades between.

Take Hitler (please!). Bad as he acted in that incarnation, his basic soul remained beautiful. For whatever reason, he, or another entity, failed his soul. The soul is what keeps returning to its base after each incarnation and it is the entity that keeps trying again, in its next incarnation. And each soul is worthy of respect.

This is also why we cannot, finally, judge anyone else. They have problems enough! (I cannot imagine anyone being born with the plan of leaving the world in a greater mess than when s/he entered it.)

I have trouble elucidating my take on this, so I'll understand anyone who takes great umbrage with it. But it does work for me. I'm no longer nearly as quick to dismiss someone with whom I disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:02 PM

Beauty can often take us out of ourselves, which is often the best place to be. Ugliness has it's function, too. Wing tip shoes, a great oil refinery at night, a horned toad; the list is endless and they all have their charms.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:15 PM

Guest 3:27... even grumpy old snits have beautiful souls! ;^) gimme some examples of things that far outway truth and beauty, will ya bro? Educate this willing heart, turn me on with finer art... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:28 PM

Ebbie, re: your 03:47 PM post; you made perfect sense to me. I can't find anything to disagree with there.

TtR, I agree with your 02:23 PM post.

Something I want to add to my last post...

It's also really gratifying to have a partner who looks beyond the surface to find beauty.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:34 PM

CarolC, in your 6:28, I was stimulated to say out loud, "...yeh, and that CarolC's got it all! ;^) ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 09:11 PM

Well said, Ebbie. You hit the nail right on the head.

Mario - Yeah, brother, I know exactly what you mean, but that's not the Soul you're speaking of...it's the thinking, calculating mind...and the mind can indeed be utterly vile in some people...as long as it remains in a vile, or as Amos has indicated, a tortured and separated state of consciousness.

The trouble is, most people are consciously dominated almost exclusively by their mind, and the ones who are most dominated by it (and proudest of it) usually have no idea that they even have a Soul or that anyone else does either!

Put it this way. The mind is that consciousness that says: I am here and I am me...alone...and I am irrevocably separate from everything and everyone else that I perceive. I am small and in danger. Continual danger. I don't have enough...enough food, money, sex, property, power, security, love, respect, and all the other stuff I want in order to be out of danger...so I have got to scheme and use any means at hand to GET enough of these things I want. Everyone else is either a threat...or they're an opportunity for me to gain something I want. If they're more powerful than me, then I will either find a way to placate and serve them or I will wait for a chance to stab them in the back and usurp their power. If they're less powerful, then I will use them for my own advantage. I am important, they are not. But...it's important for me to appear the way other people want me to appear while I set about doing what I have to do (looking out for number 1), because then I will be fairly SAFE. It's important to conceal my real motives from them, cos if they knew the REAL me, the game would be up. They would despise me or destroy me or reject me.

Now that's a pretty unhealthy mind I just described, because it's in constant great fear, but it is really fairly typical of the human mind in general, when left entirely to itself, believing it is completely alone.

It's basic statements are: I FEAR. I NEED. I WANT.

The Soul says I Am. I always have been and always shall be. I am not the body, but I am for now in the body. I am not only in me, I am in everyone and everything, and they are in me, and we are very much the same. We are of one Soul. Therefore I love them as I love myself, and I have entirely enough of what I need, and I joyfully share it with all others who, like me, are embodied individually in this beautiful experience of Life. I am sacred, so are they, and so is all of Life. I cannot die.

It's basic statements: I Love. I am Love. I already have everything I could ever need.

The Soul casts no shadow. A physical body in the presence of a partial light does cast a visible shadow, and a mind can look out through physical eyes at that shadow and decide (for whatever reason) that the shadow is realer and more powerful than the light, when the shadow is truly...nothing at all. Minds are capable of being entranced by shadows, dedicating themselves to darkness, and falling into absolute chaos. There lies madness, murder, and a form of spiritual death...but not the death of the Soul. Only the complete denial of the Soul.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST,herc
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 09:48 PM

Little Hawk George, you is okay in my book.
Amos: Truer words you have never written, even if they were facetious. (I printed that one out to use tomorrow. Might tape it to the computer.)
ttr: thanks for this. It has been a good ending to a tough day.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:21 PM

Thanks Thomas. What a nice thing to say :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:12 PM

She liked it! She liked it! Well it ain't flattery if I believe it's true... and I do...
Wow Little, I found your micro-dissertation on the soul to be most agreeable... thanks! You reminded me of a book..."Life is only real, then, when I am".
Beauty is the test of us... truth will win the best of us. ttr

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:23 PM

Glad you liked it, Thomas. And, yeah, Carol pretty well does have it all!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Peg
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:58 AM

It seems that one idea I am seeing expressed in this thread is that the ability and capacity to appreciate beauty is itself an even more desirable and significant virtue than beauty itself!

I got some very bad news today about two different friends and am reeling from it. But I know if I go for a long hike in the snow tomorrow it will rejuvenate me in ways that no drug, crying jag, counselling session, glass-breaking party or ice cream binge ever could...that's what the beauty of nature does for me. Gives me my life back.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:16 AM

Thomas the Rhymer, since you asked...

I don't think "Truth and Beauty", in the sense I am speaking of them, are attributes/values of a human scale. For that reason, I value honesty and candor over Truth, and character and meaning over Beauty.

Now, that is not to say I don't have an appreciation of (B)beauty or beautiful things. I believe we all do. I am just saying that, for me, beauty is a transient, fleeting thing. Rather like being nice. Most everyone is basically nice, and there are plenty of beautiful things to point to in this world. But neither of those two things are of lasting value, nor do they teach me things I don't know about. They don't show us how to build a better world, or foster better relationships (even being nice can't gloss over difficulties, estrangements, etc).

I don't suppose I've made myself at all clear. I'm not trying to diss anyone's choices here. I'm just saying that beauty is not high on my list of things I value. Many attributes like integrity, empathy, genuineness and sincerety, compassion, generosity...so many attributes that I suppose most people would never put before beauty. But beauty and grace are two things that many philosophies and religions warn against worshipping, and for very good reason, in my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:30 AM

Fleeting - this morning; the dawn was unusual and incredible - the EASTERN sky was light and clear blue - however the WESTERN horizon was banded in incredible shades of blue, mauve, pinks, purples, pearl opelescent - from almost due north to almost due south. a few minutes later the clouds were all outlined in glowing gold.

Incredible! and a little wierd - since at dawn the display is normally in the Eastern skies.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:43 AM

( ...now I'm blushing) Thanks LH!

Many attributes like integrity, empathy, genuineness and sincerety, compassion, generosity...

I find these attributes beautiful. So I don't experience quite the same kinds of distinctions as you.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:49 AM

"I find these attributes beautiful. So I don't experience quite the same kinds of distinctions as you."

OK, but then...is beauty all there is? Beauty is an attribute which supercedes or transcends all others? Including love and joy?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:54 AM

I can't speak for you, but I find beauty in all attributes that are pleasing to me. That includes love and joy.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM

Naw, it's just a wave-length, like blue only a million times finer.

But boy, does it make a difference!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:05 AM

So CarolC, it seems to me then, if I am understanding what you are saying, that beauty is the highest/greatest human value in your worldview?

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:11 AM

I'd say it's more a by-product of something. Light is a by-product of the nuclear reactions that take place in the sun. Beauty is, for me, a by-product of something else. I don't know if I can quantify or qualify just what it is that I think beauty is a by-product of, though. I think if I did that, I would probably be getting into the realm of the mystical, and that may not be your bag.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

CarolC, the realm of the mystical and spiritual, to me, is a practical one. Those things that are manifest in the everyday, in the commonplace. For me, spiritual practice is actively doing, rather than contemplatively being, although I am a reflective, thoughtful person.

I lean towards the chaos theory end of the mystical spectrum, more than Eastern or Western philosophies which value the search for beauty, order, and harmony.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM

I guess what I'm saying is that to my way of thinking, beauty is a subjective thing. What I find beautiful, you may not. Maybe you find beauty in chaos. Maybe that's why you like that end of the mystical spectrum. On the other hand, maybe you don't. Some people find beauty in mathmatices. Mathmatics give me a headache.

To me, there are as many different realities as there are individuated consciousnesses who think in terms of "realities".

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:42 AM

If all souls are beautiful, does that mean Hell is empty? I don't meant that to be sarcastic at all, I'm just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:45 AM

Beauty is wholly subjective, as is truth. Which is why I find them to be too idiosyncratic and discordant, rather than unifying. I agree that there are many realities, many individuated consciousnesses. But I'm looking for order, for unifying values.

We can't all agree on what is beautiful. Nor do I think we can get everyone to agree that beauty is a positive value/attribute. There are enough people who feel uncomfortable with declaring that to be "true" in absolute, or even relative terms. I can agree to beauty being a postive value/attribute in conditional terms I guess. But that is about as far as I'm willing to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:49 AM

What is Hell though??? I don't believe that Hell exists in the same way that a Christian beleives it exists. Everyone has a soul and everyone is beautiful in one way or another.

The beauty of nature is a wonderful thing. I grew up in Yorkshire and could always go walking in the woods or the hills and feel absolutely wonderful. I live in London now and sometimes get 'tetchy' at the lack of trees etc in the city.

Subject: RE: BS: What has )*BEAUTY*( ever done for us?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM

But I'm looking for order, for unifying values.

*grin* Now I'm confused. I thought you preferred chaos ;-)

Kim C, some people believe that hell is a reality or a state of mind that is created by the person experiencing it.