BS: Tyranny?

Subject: BS: Is This Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 06:46 PM

NO MORE RIGHTS

A federal appeals court ruled Wednesday that the government can hold U.S. citizens as enemy combatants during wartime without the constitutional protections afforded Americans in criminal prosecutions....

YOU ARE NEXT

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld announced yesterday he has given new power to the nation's covert warriors to KILL and capture al Qaeda operatives and OTHER TERRORISTS...

DOCUMENTED U.S. GOVERNMENT TERRORISM ON AMERICAN SOIL

Jacksonville, Fla., police arrested a soldier Saturday after finding him armed, wearing black clothes and leaving a power plant where he allegedly left an explosive....

VEHICLE TO BE USED AGAINST YOU

"Once this vehicle comes on the scene, we want everyone to know that we mean business," Germaine Fuller, the director of the project that created it, told Reuters at a news conference featuring a marching color guard and a military band playing patriotic songs such as "God Bless America."

CONCENTRATION CAMPS WAITING FOR YOU

FEMA, the federal agency charged with disaster preparedness, is engaged in a crash effort to prepare for multiple mass destruction attacks on U.S. cities - including the creation of sprawling temporary cities to handle millions of displaced persons, NewsMax has learned. ...

----------

(It's all over but the crying, people. The legal framework to imprison you for ANYTHING is in place. The camps are built, the licenses to kill have been issued. There will be another government-sponsored 'terrorist' attack, and you will be expected to submit to the foreign troops brought in to 'help' us. Buy guns.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:14 PM

> Nora F. Crow
> Department of English
> Smith College
>
> 'Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the land,
> not a critic was stirring, for stirring was banned.
> A thousand brown prisoners, snug in their cells,
> all held without charges or tinsel or bells;
> and mamma was wrapped in the national flag,
> while we sang "Where there's never a boast or a brag."
>
> When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
> I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter.
> Away to the TV I flew like a flash;
> I then watched "Survivor" and reruns of "Mash."
> The fireworks, exploding above the new snow,
> gave a luster of objects to people below.
> When what saw my wondering eyes in the flashes:
> a miniature George Bush and eight tiny fascists!
> Their jerseys were blue and said "WORLD DOMINATION";
> I knew right away this was not just claymation.
> More rapid than eagles the warlords they came,
> as the little Bush whistled and called them by name:
> "Now, Daschle! now, Ashcroft! Now Strom, don't relent!
> On, Poindexter, Rumsfeld! on Henry and Trent!
> To the top of the globe, while the crowd's at the mall,
> now bomb away, bomb away, bomb away all!"
> His sack had a war game for each girl and boy;
> his pocket, four billion from just Illinois.
> Far up on his high seat the driver did mount,
> with more massive weapons than Kofi could count.
>
> And then, I heard sounds from away off somewhere,
> the booming of bombs that were bursting in air.
> As I drew in my head, and was turning around,
> down the chimney old Dick Cheney came with a bound.
> He said not a word, nor disclosed his location;
> he wiretapped my house in the name of the nation.
> Then holding the strings of his little Bush puppet,
> he went to the chimney and quickly rose up it.
> The sleigh was still running, but Dick didn't hurry;
> gas guzzlers, it seemed, were no longer a worry.
> He popped the champagne and exclaimed as he served it,
> "The world is now ours, and GOD DAMN, we deserve it!"

The Smar5tTruck link given above should go to http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/07/army.truck.reut/index.html

A
>

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:21 PM

Please note the followinig alterations:

1. The "Concentration Camp" story is about FEMA preparations for housing emergencvy victimns in large numbers in the event of an attack.

2. The Super Dangerous Truck is a military vehicle, not in production.

3. The Terrorist On American Soil was a lone Army guy who was a bit of a nutball and placed a half-stick of dynamite charge under a power substation tower; not so nutso that he didn't realize he could get hurt playing with that shit, and threw the battery away.

I stopped checking references after three strikes.

Mental capabilities suffering from field distortion??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:53 PM

This is what the movie 'Eyes Wide Shut' deals with. The people planning to kill your family don't even have to hide their intentions. It is too heinous for you to believe. The proof is everywhere you look, but you don't even see it.

In that movie, by the way, the female lead was tortured as a child, in a program called MKUltra. Traumatized to the point of personality fragmentation, where the new personality created is then programmed to carry out missions. Like in 'The Manchurian Candidate'. In the real world of G. Bush Sr's CIA, the tortured children are used as prostitutes, drug runners, killers. The personality Kidman tries to suppress in the movie is her 'prostitute' personality, which people who know the triggers are able to activate.

But if you can't believe Federal courts SAYING you have no rights, you certainly couldn't believe in the U.S. government's continuation of Joseph Mengele's experimentation. Eyes wide shut.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM

And the truck fires rubber bullets. It ain't for combat.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 01:48 PM

Yep. There's a pack of black helicopters flying over me right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:07 PM

Check out some of the videos here:

www.infowars.com

Videos of the 'black helicopters'. You've been conditioned (if you are joking about this) to think black helicopters don't exist. Ten years of media debunking 'black helicopter kooks'. Well, there is video of raids which took place in Texas...Alice, Texas...other places. The Feds rent some old factory building and do an 'assault drill' on the place in the dead of night. They don't tell the locals, so in addition to getting the practice hours under their belts, they get the added boon of terrorizing the locals. So if you're joking about black helicopters, do some research. If you can afford a computer, you can afford filmed evidence of black helicopter exercises.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM

All helicopters look like black dots in the sky when they're far away.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:16 PM

The truck fires whatever the current module and munitions load is -- the whole point of the truck, which is a one-off prototype, is that it is modular.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:45 PM

I cannot reach the page with the truck for some reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 02:52 PM

Short brief, LH:

"SmarTruck II"
• Modified platform of Chevrolet Silverado pickup
• V-8 engine, 350 horsepower
• Instead of truck bed, stainless steel interchangeable boxes that can contain anything from small missile and launcher system or communication and surveillance systems.
• Vehicle could also carry unmanned dronelike aircraft.
• Cab houses 3-D mapping system and communication system dubbed 'hacker in a box' that could monitor e-mail in area, send e-mail or destroy enemy communication system.
• Prototype cost: Between $500,000 and $1 million.

Source: Reuters

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM

Flamer feeding time!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:33 PM

Geez Doug...you see flamers everywhere. The SmarTruck is a crowd control device. It's not a hardened military vehicle...it's a multi-purpose vehicle for domestic use. It'll move through your neighborhood, monitor this and that and shoot rubber bullets at crowds of 'possible al Qeada' congregated at the local McDonalds. In case it has escaped your attention, we are living in a tyranny in the U.S. 'There are none so enslaved as those who believe themselves to be free'. Our cops are being militarized, and the Homeland Security Act just created a Gestapo, a national police. Rumsfeld has just given licenses to kill to American military...kill 'other terrorists', which is you and me. Carte blanche license to kill. And now, the general who held the NORAD interceptor jets on the ground Sept. 11 has been promoted to supreme commander of NORTHCOM. The U.S. military now claims all of North America. Well I don't want all of North America. I just want us to get back to sane foreign policy. Pay a fair market price for oil and skip the wars. Let the poverty-stricken fundamentalists build schools to educate their way out of their cycle of poverty while we in the U.S. keep on as we were. But you seem to have bought into this 'need for perpetual war'. Get the soap suds out of your head.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 04:51 PM

Right now, the truck is nothing but a prototype.

Excuse me if I don't think the sky is falling just yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 05:12 PM

It's no prototype. They only show it to you today because you'll see thousands tomorrow. Then they can say 'what's the problem, we TOLD you about it.' Our government sprayed us with Sarin nerve gas. Story a couple months ago. The U.S. govt. sprayed us with Sarin years ago, just like that 'evil doer' Saddam did to his people. So if our govt admitted they sprayed us, it's because they're setting PRECEDENT. When the next attack of airbornes comes, they'll say 'what's the problem, we TOLD you about it.'

Well, if the 'prototype' was unveiled with a brass band, there is a fleet of them ready to roll. And we don't need these things cruising the streets of America. Period. Unless there is some NEED for them we don't know about. What do our leaders have in mind for us that is so terrible they need to build concentration camps and roll over us with Robotrucks? The sky HAS fallen, but some people just don't want to admit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM

Yeah, okay, whatever. Have a nice weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 05:52 PM

You too. Let those trucks have the right-of-way.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 05:53 PM

According to Reuters, January 7, 2003:

"The military said it has no plans to produce the truck any time soon, although Bran Ferren, a designer of SmarTruck II, said that if an order came through it could be put in production in a year."

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:07 PM

This article talks about what our Gov. has exposed people to.
deep black lies
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:27 PM

Another link to some info on black helicopters, but there is a ton of them out there by searching, anyway here is one-totse/conspiracy/black helicopters
Peace,Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 09:45 PM

If you guys really believe what you're saying about the destruction of human rights, WHY THE HELL are you still posting on an easily traceable Internet forum and making yourselves obvious targets?!?
Honestly, people, you can't be taken seriously in a forum like this for the simple reason that if you were right, you'd never be heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Troll
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 10:59 PM

Lurker, now there you go again. Introducing logical thought into a thread. I'd have thought that your stay at the Neal Young Ctr, would have cured you of such nonsense.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Troll
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:03 PM

Lurker, they are allowed to be heard. After all, they are strident and shrill and, above all, not very believable
So they are allowed to spread their message. The masses (us) read it and laugh over the absurdity of their allegations. This way, if any meaningful info ever got out by mistake, we'ed be primed to think that it was just more of the same old "chicken little".
You will notice that nearly all of these posts can be readily explained if we look at the sources ourselves and don't slavishly accept the senders interpretation of the facts. The rest are non-falsifyable statements of the "I was abducted by elvis clone" type.
If you try to point out any falacy, you are told that your mind has been clouded and you cannot be expected to see the truth.
You've been brainwashed,
The last time they washed MY brain, I think they left me on the "spin cycle" too long.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:42 PM

The flaming guest is being paid to do what he's doing... he turned down the sniper position, even though he was amoung the first applicants... something about the safety issues I guess... nice handling job there 'cats! ... here in our little oasis of clarity and contentment! Meow...

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:25 AM

Come on, troll. Do you realize how many people are out there chatting on the Internet, and saying "subversive" things, and how many sites there are saying subversive things, and how many agents would have to be employed full time to track them all down...and then what? No, I am not too worried yet. Besides, I live in a hut in Botswana. :-)

Furthermore, as long as they can keep the majority of the American public befuddled, lobotomized, and umbillically connected to their babbling TV's, I don't think they really care about the rest of us. America's foreign policy certainly doesn't indicate that they do. Not in the least. Pal, you may just be living in the most self-absorbed nation in the history of the world, with the possible exception of North Korea.

Blair is advancing one of the most unpopular courses of political action in British history, and he just keeps plowing ahead. I wonder how much they are paying him? Or...perhaps he has made a pact with the devil, and can't get out now without being flayed alive by hundreds of little red demons. (*wink)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:02 AM

Our government terrorists are so busy running their bluffs on clueless people, that I'm SAFER speaking out than the clueless ones are. I've made my position known, and my mind obviously can't go back to the old delusional way of thinking, so rather than come after me the govt. will better utilize it's time keeping all the sleepwalkers sedated. Meanwhile, I live in Texas and have always known there was no back door out of the Alamo, so come and get me. But that wouldn't be too cost effective. Have to trace me, spend a couple days surveilling me and set up a plan of attack, shoot me and lose an officer in the process, then try to explain to my neighbors that when I wasn't walking the dog I was working for al Qeada (an explanation which would just wake up ten more people). Nah, there's no downside to speaking up about this tyranny. The globalists do it...they speak about their tyranny constantly. They mock us with their brazeness. They tell us about their plans daily, and you can see them doing it, if you know how to interpret the news. Most people are just too lazy to make the switch, though. The dream is easier. But it's hard work for the government. I woke up and I'm never going back. I can't go back in good conscience. I'd be a traitor to myself and my country. Whereas the government has to lie to the sleepers constantly...endless lies....hide the truth, admit it only when you have to, foreshadow a bit so the next attack will drive them into your arms. What a task.

But sure, someday all dissent will be crushed. Maybe. They have FEMA cutoff boxes in all radio and TV stations licensed by the FCC now, and a couple months ago there was an 'attack' against 7 of the 13 backbone servers that power the internet. So someday, when our govt. nukes Houston or L.A. or New York, the internet will go down, and we'll be silenced. Meanwhile, why should they bother when so many citizens are willing to go to so much trouble to avoid the obvious. They have the psychology of this thing figured out. Except for the internet. And they CAN'T crash it right now, because that would put the collapse of the American economy ahead of schedule. So use the thing while you can. They're after the First Amendment, and when the internet goes, so does freedom of speech.

"The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it." -- Joseph Mengele

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

Alright, you're perfectly safe from the feds. Why worry so much then? The Internet really makes things much easier for a totalitarian goverment. If they destroy it, they'll lose their best tool for monitoring and control. And this ranting about destroying the American economy? Why do you think that anyone who wanted to rule tha nation would destroy its most valuable asset? A strong economy makes the country more worth owning and much easier to control.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:00 PM

Another thing a few of my friends and I were talking about the other day is the small pox vaccine. Is this also a way of getting to the poor and lower class?
Don't worry about dying if you take the shot, worry about who can't afford it. Those are the people targeted for death when the US government releases the virus upon it's own people.
Another step toward world domination and population control.
Scary to even think about it.
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:22 PM

Lurker, do you really think they want to allow this?...I CAN PROVE G.W. BUSH KNEW THE SEPT. 11 ATTACKS WERE COMING! SUE ME IF I AM LYING!

The reason I personally worry is because I know what kind of country the next generation of Americans will inherit. It's just not acceptable. The Constitution and Bill of Rights will be gone in 10 years if people don't act NOW.

And our most valuable asset has already been destroyed. 85% of U.S. manufacturing has gone overseas over the past 30 years. And our current junta in the White House does nothing but suck the Treasury, with every new Executive Order and bill signed. We're not manufacturing, and we're spending. Bankruptcy is around the corner. And we are in debt to the World Bank. The Great Lakes, for example...did you know they were used as collateral for a World Bank loan? A loan we didn't need, but which our govt. took out anyway, just so the U.N. can eventually put troops on the lakes to take control when we default on the loan?

The totalitarian world government which is coming (just the final phase of hundreds of years of consolidations and mergers) cannot allow freedom. That's how oppressive governments survive...through compartmentalization and 'need to know basis'. So the internet will be denied ordinary people. And the new feudal overlords will smirk at the memory of the last generation of Americans who had the WHOLE PLAN laid out in front of them but preferred to do nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:49 PM

I CAN PROVE G.W. BUSH KNEW THE SEPT. 11 ATTACKS WERE COMING! SUE ME IF I AM LYING! Reminds me of the National Enquirer/Globe/Star/whatever headline I saw: "Life After Death- GUARANTEED!" A guaranty implies paying up if the guarantee is invalid. If they are wrong, and there is no life after death there is no one to pay up.

But you say you can 'prove' Bush knew. Proof is irrefutable, proof is PROOF. Just how do you propose to PROVE Bush knew? I am no fan of Bush- far from it. But I neither believe in nor share your kind of anxiety. You are yelling that the sky is falling and except for 'BUY GUNS', which admonition is shortsighted and silly at best and dangerous at worst. To add fuel to your paranoia, how are we to know whether or not YOU are a gov'mint agint and trying to kill as many hapless people as you can by hysterically advising us to buy guns as though you/we actually believed they had any deterrent effect against tanks, gases, bio weapons?

The Great Lakes, for example...did you know they were used as collateral for a World Bank loan? Yep. This one is a real worry, all right. If we default on our loan agreement, a furrin gov'mint is going to send its operatives over here and take over the Great Lakes. And because we are such a nation of law and order, we're going to sit here and let them do whatever they wish- control our shipping and pleasure crafts, embargo our commmercial activities, spread out and attack us across the country- and just wring our hands. For pete's sake, GUEST, any country in which a physical entity resides is in the drivers seat, so to speak.

I laugh, sir. I laugh in your face. And yes, I have been following your links. YOU are building a mountain of air from a small boulder indeed.

Elva Bontrager

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:27 PM

With just the public sources available on the internet, I could present a case to any grand jury in the country and have them vote to go to trial for 'prior knowledge' against GWBush for the September 11 attacks. The evidence is so overwhelming, I could get any grand jury to vote to go to trial for, minimum, negligent homicide, because Bush did nothing to stop the attacks. And I could convince half the grand juries Bush had a hand in carrying out the attacks.

There is a standard-operating-procedure for situations where airplanes go off-course over the U.S. Golfer Payne Stewart's plane depressurized a few years back, and everyone on board lost consciousness. That plane had a military interceptor jet alongside it in 12 minutes, ready to shoot it down if it threatened a populated area.

On Sept. 11 the same system was set up and, according to Air Force releases on Sept. 10, fully-functional. Then, 4 large jetliners went off-course simultaneously. Over the most populous area of the nation. The FAA immediately grounded and re-routed all air traffic out of the corridors involved...cleared the air lanes for military aircraft.

But no interceptors were launched. Standing orders to scramble under those circumstances, but no jets took off. Orders had to be OVERRIDDEN for that to occur. Generals Richard Myers and Ralph E. Eberhart were in command of the system that day. And it was Eberhart who was the man at the board when it happened. So either HE over-rode the standing intercept order, or his boss did. His boss is GWBush.

Since Sept. 11, Eberhart was promoted by Bush to Supreme Commander of NORTHCOM, the new military entity which (the U.S. claims) controls ALL the armies of North America. And now Eberhart is agitating for repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act, the 1878 law which prohibits military forces to be used for peace-keeping jobs within the U.S.

Motive, opportunity, payment after the fact. ANY grand jury in the U.S. would vote to try the people involved for THAT ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE...the interceptor jets not allowed to take off. And there are HUNDREDS of other pieces of evidence...stock market paper trails, hotel receipts, videos of ground zero, INS records, etc., etc., etc.

You're not laughing at me. You're laughing at your own ignorance. Inform yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:25 PM

No GUEST, we are laughing AT you.I guess that your secret is the fertilizer that you are using.

troll ***BTW if you think that they would "...lose an officer in the process..." taking someone like you out, you have a much higher opinion of yourself than your present profile warrants. Or you watch too many old westerns on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:04 PM

See, you can't address the issues. You are terrified. Why did the interceptor jets not perform their functions on Sept. 11? You KNOW I'm on target here, and the result is going to be the death of your way of life. Unless you do something. If you are American, and you do nothing about the government-sponsored murders of Sept. 11, you are a traitor who will witness your family slaughtered, and you will die in a concentration camp and you will be reviled by those who gave you the Constitution and you will be reviled by those who write the history of the future. And you will have to remember this post as you go through the Auschwitz experience awaiting you. Explain, please, why the man who is now your god (and you damn well better treat him like one if he ever graces you with his boot on your neck), please tell me why he held the jets on the ground Sept. 11. I REALLY need to know why. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:29 PM

It's my understanding that the jets went up, but they were too late.

You must be terrified, too, or you'd take that bag off your head.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:16 PM

Of course they went up late. On a two-minute launch alert, but they went up an hour late. Orders were over-ridden. Who did it?

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 12:06 AM

GUEST, I read/process the information differently from you. And there are a number of assumptions you are making that don't seem substantiated in the links.

* Two minute launch alert? Where did you read that?
* A fighter jet was alongside Payne Stewart's plane ready to shoot it down if need be in 12 minutes? It is my understanding no one knows just when the cabin pressure failed, so where do you get the 12 minutes?

* Concentration camps? Did you know there are and have been large camps held in readiness all across the country for years? There is one at Florence, Arizona, I'm told, (I went by there in 1969) and supposedly there are six altogether; I was told it had to do with potential rioters. It is nothing new.

* Ralph E. Eberhart's career. Did you read his vitals? A long steady upward climb. His appointment to NorthCom would not be unexpected nor undeserved, on the basis of his recorded accomplishments.

* In reading his speeches, one of the things that appears to come through clearly is that no one - at least no one official - thought anything like 9/11 could happen. Eberhart said that they were all focused on the potentiality of bombs and sabotage- that no one thought of domestic airliners as being in danger.

* I agree with you that it's unconscionable that no one did- the scenario had been posited in Hollywood and had even been proposed politically as a possibility- but no one was listening.

I gather you are an American; your anxiety comes through clearly. But mind your blood pressure. Seriously. Remind yourself we will all die only once, but die we must, however it comes about.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 01:46 AM

Eberhart is a mass murderer. That's like listening to Hitler's side of the story. If you weren't too LAZY to seek out the info, you'd know that EVERYONE in the Pentagon and in the Administration knew hijacking bombs were a possibility. Bush was TOLD at his ranch 6 weeks before Sept. 11 they were a possibility! He denied it, then someone leaked the story, then he admitted it. AND THE PENTAGON WAS HOLDING A DRILL ON THE MORNING OF SEPT. 11 FOR GUESS WHAT...A PLANE HITTING THE BUILDING! This stuff has been out in the open for SO long I can't believe you wouldn't be aware of it. Quit defending these murderers. Do some research if you are really ignorant. These people violated their oaths. They are destroying this country on orders from global gangsters.

Go to the 'Prior Knowledge' section of www.infowars.com

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 01:53 AM

http://www.infowars.com/resources.html

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 03:10 AM

'How to Make Friends and Influence People', Page 312.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:04 AM

Can I be a Tyrant please n I want one of de trucks to.

Seriously folks, yep they knew that something was going to happen but if some one said to you 'hey they are going to fly a plane into the twin towers' would you believe it!! I doubt it, car bombs yes, letter bombs yes a bloody aeroplane no way!!!

I was in the air when it happend and i did not believe it when told about it upon arrival at the airport, even though I had comented to my partner that 'summat was up' due to the actions of the cabin crew.
They were scared.

As for Guest if they wanted to take you out pal you would be history and no one would be any the wiser!!!

Still want one of de trucks though.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Troll
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 09:14 AM

GUEST, it pains me to have to say this, but you have been taken for a ride.
Let me explain.
You love this country and consider yourself a patriot. This is good. But part of your love is a refusal to see that this country is not perfect and that it's government sometimes drops the ball.
But your country is a great country and great countries don't make errors.
They can, however be betrayed, and that's what you felt in the face of 9/11.
Betrayal. And, since 9/11 affected the security of the Nation, betrayal on the higest levels. The Nation had been betrayed; YOU had been betrayed. Never again can you go to sleep, secure in the knowledge that nothing could harm you.
Of course, that's not been true for a long, long time, but you felt it was true.
Until 9/11.
The country had been attacked, security had been breached, and we had all been betrayed.
At this point just about everyone in the country knew that our anti-terrorism intelligence apparatus had messed up badly but you NEEDED more. You needed someone to blame, some individual or some evil cabal that had stopped our defenses from preventing this tragedy and Osama bin Laden didn't fill the bill. How could some raghead be greater than the United States?
No, it had to be an inside job and who better to run things than the Bush family. And so, using half-truths, mis-intertretations and outright lies, we come to the point that you are at now.
The sites you cite as "proof" of your allegations are written by people just like you and that's why they are so easy to believe.
They answer all your questions neatly and completely and you don't question them because it all just "fits".
Let me ask you this. How do you KNOW what the orders are for scrambling the fighters when an airliner goes off course? You got it from a web site? And did you check that ONE PIECE OF DATa all the way back to it's source and then check out the source?
Betcha didn't.
Try it. try and go back to the origin of the post. Try and find the actualwording of the order and don't just accept the word of "Air Force Major John R. Smith." He may not even exist.
In other words, GUEST< do some realintelligence gathering on your own instead of simply accepting what someone lese has said. As it stands right now, your stridency makes you a bufoon and your argument a joke.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 10:05 AM

I don't think I could say it any better than troll did.

Sometimes things just happen. There is no rhyme or reason, or any blame to cast. But as humans, we want to blame someone. We want to believe that surely someone is at fault here.

The only people at fault for 9/11 are the hijackers, and they're already dead, so we can't get any revenge.

I remember listening to the radio that morning. All the newscasters were in total and complete disbelief. So was I. I wasn't sure what I was hearing. A plane crash? And another? What's going on here? I didn't know. It didn't make sense.

As our friend the Orc said above, if anyone had told you what was about to happen, would you have believed it?

There are some who believe the same about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

Sometimes things just happen. We shake our heads in disbelief and confusion, and in trying to make sense of things, blame whoever is convenient. But sometimes, there are no clear answers.

I don't believe the government is out to get us. I don't believe there is a mysterious syndicate out to take over the world. People have come up with these conspiracy theories for years and years - if any of them were true, I think we'd have known by now.

Of one thing I am pretty certain - it will be awhile before anyone tries to take down another airplane, because the passengers won't allow it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:07 AM

You folks are in SERIOUS denial. That's fine, most of the country is. I don't need tragedy and conspiracy in my life. None of us does. But NORAD's intercept system wasn't broken on Sept. 11. It worked exactly as it did. It was ready to go, but then someone caused it to stand down. That could only have been two people. Eberhart or Bush. Since Sept. 11, Eberhart has been elevated to Military Proconsul of America, and Bush has a repressive military system in place domestically...ready to be used by him or his successor. His old man set this final phase of global consolidation long ago.

No one WANTS to believe the worst about their leaders, but ours are the bottom of the barrel. Anyway, I could convince any grand jury in the country, just on the NORAD, Eberhart bush information available on the internet, that he gave the order for the interceptor jets to stand down, and he either did it as a military coup, or he did it on the orders of the one man who could order him to.

You folks are WAY too self-centered. Your kids are going to have to pick up the tab for your denial, and it won't be pretty. Wait til those five buck a day Paki mercenaries stop you at a checkpoint. Your wife's wedding ring will be equal to a years wages, so there goes the ring, the finger probably, and her life if she squawks. And those checkpoints have all been legislated...because of Sept. 11. You know what has REALLY happened, only you can't change your tune.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:09 AM

"I don't need tragedy and conspiracy in my life."

Then pray, do tell us why you are going out of your way to foment them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: JennyO
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:23 AM

GUEST, you keep saying you could convince any grand jury - so why don't you? If what you are saying is true and believable, go ahead and do it! What good will it do telling us, even if some of us agree with you? Otherwise, it's just a lot of talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:23 AM

Here's why. I posted it on another thread, but I'll repost it here. This is just NEW news I found yesterday. Couple of stories relating to Sept. 11. Sept. 11 is the lynchpin. If it is focused on and pulled, the whole tyrannical plan will fall. The Bushes and Clinton serve the interests of gangsters and a global banking network. The Bushes also happen to be one of the crime families. The 20th century was just a series of wars whereby these powers consolidated their wealth, and now we're in the final phase of this consolidation. The plan is to turn the world into a 'global community' on the Communist Chinese model, where they are currently branding all citizens with graphite tattoos for easier tracking. Population will then be reduced to half a billion...the figure the U.S. estimates is needed to tend the planet. And the globalists needed a spectacular 'event' to get the ball rolling in America...an incident that would get Americans to trade liberties for rights, and an event that would kill enough foreigners to create outrage overseas. So, the Rockefellers sold all interests in the WTC they had built 41 years earlier, and a few weeks later the terrorists were allowed to board the planes. Those guys were trained by the U.S. military, ushered into the country on phony visas issued out of Saudia Arabia by the CIA, housed in FBI safe houses while here, and their names weren't in the FBI computers when they were pulled aside for random boarding checks on Sept. 11. The compartmentalized FBI field agents are good people, and they weren't allowed to do their jobs. Their supervisors sat on the reports handed in to them. Clinton and Bush policy was to let known associates of bin Laden travel freely and unhindered in the U.S. Sept. 11 was no accident. There are only 2 ways of viewing history...accidental, where things 'just happen', and conspiratorial, where events are planned. You'd have to be a fool to believe the people who control the world's money supply would let ANYTHING 'just happen'.:

FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III has been asked by a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Committee to justify an award he gave to an FBI official who refused requests by Minneapolis agents for a warrant to search the computer of terror suspect Zacarias Moussaoui.

Sen. Charles E. Grassley, Iowa Republican, described as "shocking" Mr. Mueller's decision to give the Presidential Rank of Meritorious Service award to Marion "Spike" Bowman, head of the FBI's national security law unit.

"By granting this award and a monetary bonus, you are sending the wrong signal to those agents who fought — sometimes against senior FBI bureaucrats at headquarters — to prevent the [September 11] attacks," Mr. Grassley said in a letter Thursday to Mr. Mueller....

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030111-10797061.htm

Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government abuse and corruption, said today that the Bush administration has failed to provide a complete and accurate response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request concerning the decision to place White House staff on a regimen of the powerful antibiotic, Cipro, the same day as the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/2953.shtml

(The people in the American government and intelligence community who assisted the terrorists on Sept. 11 are being promoted and given bonuses. Marion Bowman refused to let good field agents apply existing law to look at the hard drive. Bowman is directly responsible for letting Bush and Eberhart carry out the attacks...and now he gets a bonus of our tax money. For murdering innocents. I truly hope Grassley is as steamed as he sounds...I hope this isn't just another diversion. And Bush went on the antibiotic Cipro on Sept. 11. WEEKS before the 'anthrax attack'. Not only did he have prior knowledge the plane attacks were coming, he had prior knowledge the anthrax attacks were coming. Clinton was impeached over a blowjob, people. We have a slam-dunk case for mass murder of Americans against GWBush. And these stories are just the couple new ones I came across today. There are thousands of stories about government involvement in Sept. 11 and the anthrax 'attack' out there).

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

Well put, troll. You are a compassionate man.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM

Grand jury...people are trying. Judicial Watch. David Schippers:

http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/Illumine.htm

Read the interview at the URL above. David Schippers is a Republican. Lead impeachment attorney in the Clinton impeachment. Before that he kicked the Mafia's ass in Chicago. After the Clinton job was over, he went back to Chicago, and FBI agents began approaching him saying they were being reassigned and threatened over bin Laden. Schippers tried to use the Republican connections he had made in Washington to talk to people, but they all avoided him. Ashcroft, congressional leaders. More evidence that an attack was coming poured in, and he became frantic, but they STILL ignored him. Read that interview.

And grand juries...I can't initiate proceedings because judges have overstepped the constitution and usurped the grand juries authority. And who are you going to appeal to on that? A judge? Even if I could convince a grand jury, no judge would set his family up for Bush retribution by allowing the case in his courtroom. So I speak out and hope for a lawsuit. Lots of people are doing it. LOTS of people...but there are still no lawsuits. The Bush junta just wants a little more time...no lawsuits...just a little more time until they can lauch smallpox and shut down American cities. Then the fun will REALLY begin.

It's here, folks. While you're all watching the playoffs, our troops are being sent overseas so we'll have to rely on U.N. troops when the rioting starts. I hope I'm wrong, but I really do think it's that bad. And it was allowed to get like this because people just can't believe something so bad could happen in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:37 AM

Please cite your source for your assertion about Chinese citizens being forcibly tattooed. I couldn't find anything on the Internet about that. Of course, that's probably a conspiracy, too.

I agree with JennyO - if what you say is true, and you have indisputable proof, take it to a judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 12:45 PM

It's been taken to a judge. Over and over and over again. The Bushes kill people who cross them, and no judge will allow a grand jury to go forward with these cases. The one big case that is being allowed is now stalled...the survivors of the WTC attack who refuse to take the govts. 1.8 million hush money and are suing...that case will drag on for twenty years. They HAD to allow that one, the Cheney said another terrorist attack WOULD occur if any more govt. resources were drawn away from the 'war on terrorism'.

This forum is slowing down...hard for me to get to it now...slow. Your protector is doing what he can to save you from the truth. Use www.google.com and type in whatever you want to look for.

Drudge Report has all the wire services. You can search AP, UPI, Reuters for breaking news.

GoogleNews.com combines searches for all the wire services and returns results for headlines.

I'll look for the piece on the graphite tattoos and post it if I can get back here. The President of China called the Fortune 500 the 'ultimate flower of Communism'. Don't you folks recall the push just a short while ago to 'chip' everyone in the U.S.? Our borders are wide open during this 'war on terrorism' (first thing you do in a war is close the borders), but Bush has INCREASED importation of foreigners from terrorist states and refuses to regulate the Mexican border. Yet he allows ALL repressive measures against U.S. citizens. His daddy was ambassador to China and head of the CIA, killed millions in Central and South America to set up his cocaine cartel and the 'war on drugs'. Figure it out for yourselves, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 12:49 PM

There is a third way of viewing history, o nameless GUEST. Most people call it "reality." To assert that everything that ever happens is planned would be ludicrous. The Black Death, the annihilation of the first Native American tribes by smallpox, the eruption of Krakatoa or Mt. Saint Helens, all of these were clearly unpredictable and unplanned. While many events in history are planned, it is equally improbable that a single group could be responsible for all of them. The Gulag and the Nazi concentration camps were clearly designed by different agendas. The French and American revolutions were very different events, with very different causes. If a single force controlled the world's economy, media, and government, it wouldn't need 9/11 to control the American people. It could do a better job with simple control of the news and other mass-media programming.

You need to take a long series of very deep breaths and try re-examining the evidence from a rational standpoint. Until you can make assertions based on verified evidence, your rants about the world banking cartel will be given no more credence than ravings about a Yid-Mason conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM

It would be pretty difficult to sue someone if you didn't know who they were, right? Seems like a safe position to be in from your viewpoint guest.

But you literally have me scared to death! The sky is definitely falling.

And yet, we continue to feed you.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:03 PM

Guest; it is with fascination and dismay that I read every one of you posts. Half truths, exagerations and paranoid ramblings do not mix well with high anxiety rants... especially if you actually care whether you bring people in or not. Fact is, I can't tell whether you are trying to help us, or just mislead us... and after writing as much as you have, this is a bad reflection on your approach.

I find your style to be pedantic, preachy, and fear-ridden. My guess is that you are not used to communicating with people, and very inexperienced at it...

Make me care, Guest, don't give me this "you unthinking sheep" carp... there ain't nobody here but awesome, reasonably informed music-lovers... and if you can't talk to us respectfully, then get lost! (like you aren't already...)

I do apperciate the work you've gone to though, it's quite impressive to see such volumes of vigor... you might want to spend a bit more time checking your sources...

You are barking up the wrong tree here, Big Guy! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:54 PM

MY GOD!!! I agree with a TROLL what is the world coming to it must be the Martians !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Another guest
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 04:56 PM

I just went back to the start of this to see what the problem was. Someone was accused of half truth and rambling but then I went back to the start. There are stories there about politics. I only had to look at the first two to know whats going on here. I think the rest of you should go back to those and read them. This man or woman is right about the tyranny. I heard the first story read on Voce of America. They told the rest of the world Americans do not have any more rights. They read it on V.O.A. Every American should be screaming now. I think they're getting the world ready for the loss of America. America is an important symbol of freedom to the rest of the world and this is bad. I'm just another messenger so forget it if the other one can't get the point across. You read the storis for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:48 PM

...I am not aware of anyone ever successfully convincing a paranoid individual that his/her delusions are inaccurate. I am nevertheless, always fascinated with the highly creative way paranoids link their delusions together to prove vast conspiracies. Most amusing, really...this paranoid is quite talented at it, actually! (Incidently, fear is projected in this structure. Make the other person afraid or tell them they are!)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 10:04 PM

What intrigues me is how people are so sure of their own chosen customary view of reality, and how they defend it like cornered pit bulls. This is just as true of the people who consider GUEST to be loony as it is of GUEST himself. What it amounts to is that they are defending their very own conscious indentity, fearing its destruction if they should ever give in and yield their basic position to anyone.

Those who believe any given proposition spend most of their energy seeking out info that supports that proposition and the rest of it heaping scorn on anything that doesn't, and NOT actually bothering to investigate it, beyond, perhaps, the most superficial glance or two, just to give themselves further ammunition for scorn.

I'm aware of this tendency in myself, as well as in others. I watch for it.

Therefore, I will consider any unusual viewpoint carefully, reconsider it, and reconsider it again. I will assess probabilities.

I think GUEST is onto some very real stuff here. I don't necessarily think it's ALL real. But I don't absolutely for certain KNOW what parts are real and what aren't. I am not, however, afraid to give it all some careful consideration while I continue to think about it. And I watch the course of events, and try to see what little I can do to deal with it.

The only things I know for absolute certain are the things I KNOW directly. Know what I mean? The rest is all someone's opinion...or someone's stated "fact", which may or may not be factual, depending on their intentions, their access to information, and a hundred other factors.

I am continuing to consider what GUEST has said. If, Ebbie, as you say, there are six large camps set aside for "potential rioters" in the USA I would be VERY concerned. Genuine democracies do not build camps to house potential rioters, they address the social ills that might lead to rioting in the first place and they do something positive to cure those ills. The USA's response to increasing crime, social breakdown, and despair is to simply keep building more jails and hiring more cops. That is the response of a dictatorship in the making. The whole world can see it coming, and it's not good.

I frankly believe your government has gone mad...in normal human terms...but not in their own, of course.

And, yes, the forum is slowing down. Let's keep an eye on that too.

I would be delighted to find out that things are WAY better and saner out there than I think they are. Absolutely delighted! Count on that. I like a peaceful, stable society. I hope it turns out that way. I would rather be healthy, happy, and prosperous (me and everyone else) than merely be "right" just for the sake of my precious little ego.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:14 PM

I've always wondered about that, too, Little Hawk. In 1969, from our home in Oregon, I took my 6 year old daughter on a vacation, traveling byways and back roads as much as I could. Outside Florence, Arizona, I came upon a vast fenced acreage, posted with large No Trespassing signs, with a broad, asphalt road. in the distance I could see buildings, but couldn't see much; the land there has a slight roll to it.

I was curious and in town I stopped at a restaurant. I asked a couple of people who each said they would ask someone else. Finally, an older woman, whether boss or waitress I don't remember, said that it was a "governmental security area". I said that to someone else and he snorted. It's a concentration camp, he said. And they're all across the country, he said.

I've never known the truth of it. Keep in mind, however, that 1969 was a volatile time in this country.

I just looked up Florence. It has around 17,000 people, as of the 2000 census, and is situated between Phoenix and Tucson.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 11:31 PM

Well damn. Had a nice long harangue all typed out...then it got blasted to electrons. Should have saved it. Happened earlier today, too. I'm being filtered. Or so it seems. It's happened before and it'll happen again, but I don't think I'll be able to come back here to visit you folks. Too bad too, because I've begun to amuse harpgirl. That's probably more reward than I deserve for doing what I have to do, and I DO have to do this. I'm compelled by the oaths I've taken to defend my country.

I forgot what all was in the other post. Doesn't matter. It seems I've amused most of you by showing you an alternative universe. Only, it's a REAL universe. Consider Dick Cheney. He said future terror attacks against America would be certain if money and resources were diverted to the Sept. 11 investigation. Coming from a GOOD Dick Cheney, that would show concern for Americans. Coming from a BAD Dick Cheney, that would be a threat against those pushing for investigations. So, which do you, in your heart, believe said that? The good or the bad Cheney? The only U.S. company allowed to 'trade Iraqi oil for humanitarian purposes' since the Gulf War was Cheney's Haliburton Oil company. The Bushes and Clinton made sure of that. So, in my book, profiteering from human suffering makes Cheney bad. Which means he threatened us with another terrorist attack if we pushed for Sept. 11 investigations. Is THAT what you folks are afraid of? Dick Cheney?

And now we have the lunatic Saddam Hussein outwitting GWBush. What an embarrassment. Here's a re-cap of the Hussein/Bush soap opera:

1980's -- Turkey and the U.S. build up Hussein's army to fight the Iranians. The Bushes and James Baker's family sell tons and tons of bioweapons and chemical weapons to Hussein.

1990 -- American ambassador to Iraq, April Glasspie, tells Hussein that an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait would be regarded as a 'regional conflict' and the U.S. would not get involved in 'inter-Arab affairs'. I've seen the video tape of the meeting a dozen times. So Hussein invades, then Bush # I breaks his promise and attacks Hussein. But he doesn't take him out because (see comment on Haliburton above). Hussein was left in power so the Bushes and Cheneys could bleed the country of oil revenue. He was also left in power because the police state in America needed some finishing touches...concentration camps to be built, more federal funding to turn public schools into prisons, arm local cops with military ordinance they HAVE to practice with to stay sharp. Oh, and ratchet up the 'war on drugs' so you can eventually equate terrorism, guns and SUVs with drugs. Little things like that had to be done in the U.S. over the past 12 years. By the way, did you know the RAVE Act (updated 1986 law) has just made it illegal to own or possess glow sticks, bottled water or air conditioners in the U.S.? Look it up.

2000 -- The Bushes draw up a plan to conquer Central Asia even before GW is in the White House. The plan calls for the removal of Hussein at ANY cost. That was in the Sunday Herald, I think. The plan was circulated to the Bushes and Dick Cheney. Even Jeb got a copy. Just type in 'Iraqi invasion plan before' at www.google.com. That should turn up the story.

2003 -- GWBush has spent over a year tying everything he can to 'the war on terror'. He's wrecked our economy, given all our money to the upper 1% of 'wage earners'...and he's accused Hussein of wanting to use 'weapons of mass destruction'. Plans are in place to shut down cities and bus you to sports stadiums for 'protection'. Our troops are being sent overseas as fast as possible, but then, suddenly, Hussein says he'll consider stepping down and going into exile. GW is cracking under the strain. He's tried everything from tying Hussein to al Qeada (unsuccessfully), saying he's breached the rules laid down by U.N. inspectors, he's said 'he tried to kill my daddy', he's threatened to 'launch a nuclear war in order to prevent nuclear war'...I mean, the guy's cracking because it is his JOB to kill Hussein so the CIA can release smallpox on us. With Hussein not around to defend himself, we can blame EVERYTHING on him. So the Russian mafia and the Windsors and the Rothschilds are expecting GW to deliver, and now Hussein has thrown a wrench into things. So what's GW to do? The U.N. has ordered him to seize the second largest oil reserves in the world, so it looks like GW will be getting another ass-whipping from 'the pretzel' before long. And to avoid that...to avoid another ass-whipping...he's going to go ahead and launch a suicidal war. China will move on Taiwan (GW's already cut the number of U.S. warships in that theater in half), we'll lose 40 thousand troops in South Korea, we'll lose a hundred thousand to CIA nukes in Pakistan, etc. And then there's the Russians. GW has reduced our nuclear warheads from 7,200 to 1,700, but the Russians have kept all theirs. And the sad thing is, I think GW is the reluctant monster in this. He just wants to be baseball commissioner and eat boogers at ball games (look for that video on the internet...it's cool. GW and Laura eating boogers at the Texas Rangers ball park). So the guy just wants to be commissioner, and now his Luciferian father and all his DynCorp friends (look up DynCorp...the CIA front company that may have kidnapped as many as 200,000 kids in Bosnia for sex slave / ritual child sacrifice resale)...those guys send the 'pretzel' over to kick ass when things don't get done on time. So...damn it...all he can do is launch a war. Sure he ducked Viet Nam and just cut medical benefits to WW2 and Korean War vets, but...that pretzel guy...

But enough of that. I made my point. I doubt even this will make it through the Mudcat filter. Y'all are nice folks, and I hate to be so hard on nice people, but DAMN it...this is SERIOUS stuff. And I KNOW most of it is on-target. But the folks consolidating their power right now are getting sloppy. Bush was on Cipro Sept. 11, and the families of the Brentwood New Jersey postal workers who first died of the anthrax are SUING Bush for KNOWING the anthrax was in the mail. Bush # 2 is a DESPERATE man who is going to TRY to start WW3 and wreck America in the process, just so he doesn't get caught being bad. And we OWE it to every one of the people who died defending America to holler about this.

Need to look for other forums now. It's been fun. Going to put on Jerry Lee Lewis' Sun recordings now to get REALLY cranked up...grrrrr

Adios

P.S. -- Just saw your post before I pasted this, Little Hawk. Thank you for your thoughtful comments. You have a sense of non-judgementalism I wished I possessed. But somewhere I heard you don't pick your causes, they pick you. And since Sept. 13, 2001, I knew I was being fed BS. My investigations have led to this point. It's not a world view I like, believe me, but I'm pretty sure it's accurate. Thank all of you for your comments...supportive or ridiculing. You need to express yourself, and that's what chaps me most about our current situation. Freedom of speech is rare in the world, and people are threatening to take it from us. If we don't raise hell about it...well, do what you have to do. I'm doing what I have to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:03 AM

I do wish you'd decide whether you want to give us actual information or whether you want to throw in total nonsense. "By the way, did you know the RAVE Act (updated 1986 law) has just made it illegal to own or possess glow sticks, bottled water or air conditioners in the U.S.? Look it up." I did. Not only is NOT a law, it's a proposed ACTand it hasn't even been passed. It was presented to the Senate in 2002 by Joseph Biden, in the name of himself and three or four other legislators and as of January 13, 2003 is still just in the pipeline.

And it does NOT outlaw any of the above: glow sticks, bottled water or air conditioners. (Why didn't you add pacifiers)? Get real.

I must say that the person you remind me of is Schippers himself, or at least what I perceive him to be like. No, that is not a compliment.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: JennyO
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:29 AM

I have been following this thread with a fair bit of interest, even reading GUEST's posts right through, and trying to keep an open mind. Strangely enough after Sept 11, I said to a few people "What if the whole thing was orchestrated by the U.S. govt?". Nobody I spoke to thought that was possible, and even I decided it was too horrifying to contemplate, but having seen the movie "Network" years ago, my mind has been open to the possibility that there is a hell of a lot more goes on behind the scenes than we would ever dream of. Usually I tend to think the best of people, and that is certainly true in my everyday life, but I am not gullible, either.

I don't know all the facts about this, and frankly, if it is as bad as you say it is, GUEST, it would be well nigh impossible to uncover them, so I take the same viewpoint as Little Hawk, and watch to see what happens, and don't necessarily believe everything I hear, particularly if it is second hand information. We have enough to worry about here in Australia, with little Johnny Howard champing at the bit to jump on the Bush war-wagon.

By the way, GUEST, the forum slowed down for me too, only when I was on other threads. When you said it was slowing down and hard for you to get to, and "Your protector is doing what he can to save you from the truth", that sounded a tad paranoid. Comments like that don't help you much when you want people to take you seriously!

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:54 AM

Sadam actualy lives in the middle east and not asia so I think it might bea good idea for you to point this out to Mr Bush prior to his invasion otherwise it could prove to be slightly embarasing.
i quite agree that he seems to be slightly obsessed with Sadam could be he fancies him though?

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:39 AM

"This is what the movie 'Eyes Wide Shut' deals with. The people planning to kill your family don't even have to hide their intentions. It is too heinous for you to believe."

"I could present a case to any grand jury in the country and have them vote to go to trial for 'prior knowledge' against GWBush for the September 11 attacks. The evidence is so overwhelming, I could get any grand jury to vote to go to trial for, minimum, negligent homicide, because Bush did nothing to stop the attacks. And I could convince half the grand juries Bush had a hand in carrying out the attacks."

Guest,are your eyes wide shut? Read what your arguments are based on, you have already gave the defence for Bush "It is too heinous for you to believe". If American Gov. were to investigate every threat and make contingency plans to the threats, it would bankrupt the country in days. Who draws the line? Who says this is for real? What would happen if Bush had the Twin Towers evacuated and all flights cancelled on that day?

The threat wrt Sept 11 was too heinous for you to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:02 AM

Erm, Steve.... The Middle East is part of Asia....

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:54 AM

Ah do apologise normaly just think of that area as middle east.
Thank you for correcting my error :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM

I can only speak for myself.... but today I still have the right to do everything I did yesterday.

In my own little sphere of existence, I don't feel abused, I don't feel put upon, trampled upon, whatever. I can travel anywhere I want (except Cuba, and there are still ways around that), I can write letters to my Congressmen, to my local newspaper, to whomever I wish; and in the State of Tennessee, I can still buy a gun and get a carry permit if I want. I can still go to work and go shopping and go to the movies and get on the Internet.

And on Friday, I'm going to get tattooed again, of my own free will.

Are there people who don't want me to be able to do some of those things? Well, sure. Do I believe they will ever have enough power to stop me, or anyone else in this country, from doing them? With the exception of international travel, I say, not a chance. (I single out travel, because it has been restricted in times past, and for good reasons.)

I'm not buying it. Maybe I'm wrong. Okay. But I'm not going to fill my brain with a bunch of gloom-and-doom that can't be readily and undoubtedly documented.

Y'all's mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:15 AM

Can ye get yer cookie grafted back on? Kim C, hope you get well soon, poor thing! ahh

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Troll
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:41 AM

Well, I tried.
Don't misunderstand; I don't necessarily disagree with GUEST that something is wrong, but I want more than unsubstantiated newapaper articles and off the wall conspiracy theories that patch vaugely related events together before I'll start circling the wagons.
Remember, never atribute to malice that which may be explained by stupidity.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:35 AM

Hey, it got posted. I did lose a post yesterday and the day before. Someone on the forum asked 'Max' to do something about my posts a while back, and I just assumed someone was filtering. Might be, or it might be the forum needs purging. Too much in storage...pages open slowly. But I HAVE been blocked from other forums, believe it or not...just for spreading innocent little stories like this:

http://www.bushwatch.net/burns.htm

Which is all I'm posting today, on various boards. The story is long and a real bolt from left field. I didn't even know there was another Bush brother...and look what he's involved in.

Eyes Wide Shut...let's see...Tom Cruise is flirting with high society and his wife has a breakdown. As he investigates the breakdown, he discovers a new world. The same old world that's been in front of him all the time, but he starts to see it differently. This is a CRUCIAL movie, (watch it if you can tolerate nudity), and some say Kubrick was killed for making it. It chronicles the main character's dawning awareness of the 'ruling class'. Their ability to make things happen, the way they do what they want, secretly, but still right there in front of you if you bother to look. Kubrick was always a step ahead of other film makers, and some think he was killed for showing the world of the Illuminati. But some said Mozart was killed for writing the Magic Flute about the Masons. Who knows? Kidman's breakdown of her MKUltra training reminds me of what GW is going through right now...the mood swings, etc. I think there's a passable chance GW is a victim of MKUltra...hell, his grandaddy and daddy were instrumental in developing the program. MKUltra was the torture program developed by the CIA using rescued Nazi scientists. The 'death camp' doctors who really WERE doing research...not just killing indiscriminately. They wanted to find out how much pain and trauma a person could take, and in their experiments, they discovered how the mind splits under extreme torture. A new personality (blank slate) is created and that personality can be given a 'trigger phrase'. Later, you can open that personality with the phrase and teach it the art of assassination, prostitution, drug muling, etc. The Nazis who developed this were imported to the U.S. in 1947 by the NSA and CIA and continued to work. That's where all the kids on the milk cartons end up...as CIA operatives who don't even know they are. That's where the kids DynCorp kidnapped went. Or that's what some say.

And Ebbie, dear Ebbie, thank you for doing my homework for me. My mistake there was in thinking the last congress passed that already. The analysis I read of it examined the semi-colons and the 'whereas'es and pointed out how, technically, all the things I mentioned COULD be considered paraphenalia. Bottled water, air-conditioners and yes, even pacifiers. And these steroided, military-armed cops running around today DO like to pick on women, so mommies with children and pacifiers SHOULD be concerned about something as seemingly unconnected to their lives as the RAVE Act. All this oppressive legislation is interconnected. EVERYTHING is being criminalized...

Take public schools. I come from a family of teachers (ex-teachers), and they've been baffled for years over why 'counsellors' rush in to talk to the kids every time one of their classmates dies, etc. Well, the information collected is recorded, and we're told those files are sealed...juvenile record. Fast forward to the present, and you have the Bush Administration forcing public schools to turn over all info on kids to the military. Or they want that to happen, at least, and it will after the next 'terrorist attack'. They want to get a peek at kids' thoughts so they can pick out the anti-socials for the really ugly jobs. And these 'counselling sessions' after tragedies...someday the notes of THOSE sessions will be in the govt. database, and anyone with a 'psychiatric history' will not be allowed to purchase or own a gun. THAT is the primary reason for forcing counsellors on kids at school...to give them a psychiatric history. It is also the primary reason Ritalin (and soon, Prozac) are being shoved on kids...MANDATORY if they expect to remain in school. To give them a psychiatric record. And it used to be just a roundabout way of denying them guns when they got older, but with this new Prozac development, I wonder what else has been added to the plan. I've heard Charolette Isserby (sp?) interviewed on this a couple of times, and she says it is government policy...what I just described. She was #2 or 3 in Reagan's Dept. of Education, and she says the public school system is intentionally being used to train kids how to live in prisons, give them 'records' so they can't advance later in life, etc.

Anyway, I just overwhelm people with information and let them sort it out, Ebbie. Not enough time to debate the minutae. If ANYTHING I say catches your interest, look into it. I love life but HATE the new world I've discovered since Sept. 11. But the world's not beyond fixing. It's only a couple hundred truly evil people pushing the world towards a feudal society where 80% of us will need to be exterminated. And they can't withstand the light of day. Look at the trouble they've gone to to protect a schmuck like Marvin Bush...the guy in the story at the URL above. They are TERRIFIED of the light.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:42 AM

For quite some time, GUEST, I thought that you might just be a flamer. I think I was probably wrong though. Seems to me you are just paranoid. Help is available if you seek it. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:52 AM

What I would like to know is why would that even be a proposed act? (RAVE act) Now what is up with that? I guess I'll have to look it up myself. In the meantime...PLEASE click here
Ha!
Rustic
P.S. Guest if your still out there, I had the same problem yesterday with posting. I don't think they are filtering you ...Yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM

Sorry that didn't work. ok just forget it unless you want to go to steakandcheese.com and look up what I was trying to do it's under pictures 2000- Bush and Cheney. I was just trying to add a little humor with no success. Go figure.
Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ireland
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:52 PM

"Anyway, I just overwhelm people with information and let them sort it out"

Are you OK dear, do you need to talk about it, this paranoia is really unhealthy you know. I see you as the character played by Mel Gibson in the film Conspiracy Theory, sad.

You overwhelm me with fear, just think if some one like you get their finger on the button.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

Florida's embattled child-welfare agency -- the Department of Children & Families -- employs at least 183 people who have been arrested and punished for an array of felonies including child molestation, child abuse, sex crimes, drug dealing, even welfare fraud against the agency itself, a Herald investigation has found.

For instance, the HEAD of the agency's data-security team in Tallahassee is listed on the state's list of sexual predators for molesting a 5-year-old boy...

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/4026447.htm

Of course I'm paranoid. All of us are. And you folks need to be MORE paranoid. In the Bush state of Florida, THOUSANDS of children are missing. Taken from their natural families and then they disappear on their way to 'relocation'. They are being sold as child sex slaves, ritual sacrifice meat and CIA mind-control victims. Bush Sr. used these kids to mule cocaine and heroin into the country for the CIA. No one checks kids at airports. And even if they DO get caught, the only sure way out of a drug bust is to flash a CIA badge. Look around. These stories are everywhere on the internet. From reliable sources. And I'd say the truly paranoid people are the ones who refuse to acknowledge this stuff. I'm more or less comfortable with it because, once you know what the problem is, you can work to correct it. And the PROBLEM is our ruling elite is decadent beyond your wildest dreams. They have been in power for so long and are so jaded, they've grown weary of the status quo and are searching for 'alternative lifestyles'. Which has led them to satanism and Nazi mind control and child sacrifice. And these are the people who are about to...

They're getting ready to constrict the money supply in America. This year we start with a re-print of the twenty dollar bill. Going to add color to it to 'thwart the counterfeiters'. But in reality, they just want to collect all the old twenties, and then issue FEWER new ones. Then they'll do the same with fifties, hundreds, tens, fives, etc. And before long, there won't be enough money in circulation for you to pay off your debts. Physically not enough money. That's why we're all being offered zero-down home loans and 0% car financing and free credit cards...they WANT us in debt. Because they are now going to make it impossible for you to get OUT of debt. And then, you'll have to turn over your real estate to them.

I believe there are long-term plans for world conquest and short term plans. The above is a long-term plan, but if they get the chance to do it quickly...to take control of all the real estate in the U.S. by releasing smallpox, for example...they'll do it. These folks drink baby's blood and rape children to create fragmented personalities, so they're capable of anything. And yes, that makes me a bit paranoid.

By the way, maybe I should get a handle, so you folks won't have to read about this stuff if you don't want to. One of you may have a missing child, and that disturbs me. Sorry if I offended you. Someone give me a handle and then you nice folks won't have to click on this stuff if you don't want to. But I HAVE to spread what I learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:59 PM

You forgot human cloning and the aliens that are supposed to come back to earth and make us their mind-slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM

You're an agent. I've run into them before. Debunk the story by casting it as a 'theory' or smear the messenger. The Miami Herald (not me) printed the story about the sex offender having total access to the files of Florida's children. The Treasury is issuing the new twenties, not me. You're not very good at your job.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:29 PM

You got me. I'll be going back to the Mother Ship now.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:58 PM

He's not a flamer, Doug. He's dead serious. And as far as paranoid goes, well, maybe so... But did you ever observe a bunch of sparrows huddling in a hedge while a sparrowhawk makes passes over their heads? Paranoid as all hell! Only question is, are those real sparrowhawks out there over your spacious skies, your amber waves of grain? Who really has the weapons of mass destruction, and is prepared to use them? Who? Saddam is a red herring. The excuse of the hour. He's about as important as Manuel Noriega or Anastasio Somoza. Remember them?

The "Eyes Wide Shut" analogy is quite intriguing. Talk about a creepy movie...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:59 PM

Actually, I hope you ARE a monitor. No one could follow my postings and not at least have some SUSPICIONS about what I'm saying. Just today...I posted an URL to a story about a cover-up involving a Bush Baby. That is all COMPLETELY new to me. More evidence...more motive behind Sept. 11. And then the URL about the HEAD of Child Protective Services in Florida being a child molester. I mean, if you ARE a govt. agent and are following 'subversives', how could you not start to worry about your own family after reading some of those stories? Look at who has been punished for Sept. 11...FBI field agents who did the right thing and tried to stop bin Laden. So you would be in a fix as an agent...if you do the right thing and try to stop the monsters taking over the world, you're fired and villified, but if you DON'T stop this evil system, it will chew up you and your family after it's done with me. So yeah, I hope you are an agent. I really have talked to them online before, and they're not stupid. I've told them what I just told you, and they know I'm right on at least ONE point...If the system is as corrupt as I present, then they will die at its hands, too. I think that's why there's a chance to stop this thing from reaching total tyranny...because federal agents are smart, and they see where a U.N. dominated North America would lead. To concentration camps and the deaths of their families. So if you're an agent, at least check out some of this stuff before debunking it. For your family's sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:09 PM

MMMMMMAAAAAXXXXXX!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:30 PM

I asked this on another thread and I don't believe I ever got an answer.

Is bullshit one word or two?

Our government is 227 years old. If they wanted to destroy us, why are they taking so damn long?

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:08 PM

Because of the civil rights we used to have? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:06 PM

Hey, the colonists could have chosen some other form of government. But they didn't.

Everyone keeps talking about the erosion of civil rights - but even when I asked my husband, what right has been taken away from you personally, he couldn't give me a specific answer.

There may be a bunch of goobers in this country playing with the Constitution - but as far as I know, none of the Bill of Rights has been officially repealed by the Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:37 PM

..."During the time of war or during any other period of national emergency declared by the President, the President may, through any agency, that he may designate, or otherwise..."

That is from the 'Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917'. The Act defined the 'enemy' to be people "OTHER THAN CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES" and gave the President the power to strip 'enemies' of the fundamental Constitutional rights enjoyed by American citizens.

On March 9, 1933, the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917 was amended. "...other than citizens of the United States" was changed to "...ANY PERSON WITHIN THE UNITED STATES." So, the power of the President to deny Constitutional rights was extended to include Americans.

THEN, as soon as the Act was changed to include Americans, FDR used the Great Depression as a reason to declare a new national emergency. And AT THAT MOMENT, the President had the legal power to deny all Americans the protections of the Constitution. We came under martial law in March of 1933.

We have been under various 'states of emergency' ever since. Currently, we are under the one declared on Sept. 24, 2001, by GWBush. So you HAVE no Constitution at this moment in time, folks. The President or any of his 'designees' can seize your property, your guns, your family, your bank account, you, your food, your pets...everything you have in this world. And in addition to losing your property, you can have your means of livelihood taken from you, and your liberty. Look up the Acts of 1917 and 1933 to see a list of what you could lose at any time.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title50a/50a_2_1_.html

(Sorry if I burst any bubbles, huckleberries)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM

There is the option of asking your representatives to endorse an impeachment of Bush.
http://www.rense.com/general33/preoi.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM

And I could walk out in the street and get hit by a truck, too, and lose everything in the blink of an eye. But I don't let it stop me from living my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:53 AM

It's the life of a slave, Kim C. All these years (if you're American), you've been saying 'well it may not be the perfect form of government, but it's the best in the world', and 'At least we have our freedoms'. But look at what happened in March of 1933. Americans were denied their rights. And it's been all downhill since then. You've been acclimated so slowly to the tyranny that you don't even see it.

Milton Mayer, in his book, They Thought They Were Free, describes this process from his personal observations of living in Germany during the rise of the Third Reich.

"Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow." But who will speak out without a voice? When the press is gone, organized opposition disappears also. "To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these 'little measures' that no 'patriotic German' could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head."

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:18 PM

Someone mentioned Mel Gibson. I heard his father will be interviewed tonight on this radio network:

http://www.infowars.com/index.html

Just go to the site and click on one of the 'Listen Here', buttons at the top left. Streaming audio.

The show is supposed to be aired at 8:00PM central time. The host is 'Pastor Butch Paul', a fire-breather from West Virginia. Radical right-winger.

Anyway, I never knew much about Gibson and his family, but his father is now 85. He was living in New York when America started committing troops to Viet Nam war started cranking up...and he didn't want that for his sons. Gibson knew about the New World Order / globalist domination plans even back then and didn't want to feed his family to the system, so he moved to Australia in the early sixties.

So it would make sense that Mel makes movies about conspiracies and patriotism. Anyway, I don't listen to Pastor Butch because I heard enough of that in my youth, but this show tonight should be interesting, if the guest comes on as announced.

And then AFTER the show, leave it tuned in for Alex Jones. He has a pretty sophisticated web site, so you can read the stories he covers AS he talks about them on the air. The best, most interactive learning set-up I've ever come across as far as current events.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:44 PM

GUEST, I do hope you are not gainfully employed in research! If you are being paid anything, you are being over-paid.

In the interest of accuracy, Milton Mayer did NOT write the book from his personal observations while living in Nazi Germany, as you say.

Milton Mayer is an American journalist, of "German Jewish descent", enquote, who in the book quoted a "colleague of mine", enquote.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:49 PM

Guest, you say your looking for a handle? Every time you post it seems people say, "the sky is falling"- how about Chicken Little? Ha!
I have not checked out that site you posted, infowars, it always seemed ominous to me. Don't ask me why.
Hey Harpgirl, what is that all about? Your last post? Are you crying for censorship on the cat?
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

Of course I don't research for a living. I'd starve. You know that. But I post so much stuff I make a lot of mistakes. Sorry. That doesn't diminish the power of the quote, though, does it? That quote describes EXACTLY the situation we are in now, no matter who said it.

So anyway, I was thinking of using 'Sparrownoid' as a handle so you folks can ID me...avoid the painful truth if you want. What do you think? From Little Hawk's mention of sparrows having REASON to be spooked. I do value you imput, Ebbie, so what do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM

Yeah, Chicken Little. Probably taken already. I was also thinking of spArrow ... with a capital A showing I'm armed (arrow).

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:01 PM

Misattribution does indeed devalue a quote which has been attributed precisely to lend it credibility. It also detracts from the future credibility of the person making the attribution. When one's stock-in-trade is citing evidence from "credible sources" and one misidentifies those sources, one dilutes the impact of anything one has to say. I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,ho hos
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:06 PM

Guest-

Garbage in, Garbage out. Think about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:18 PM

You're right about attribution of sources. I'll try to do better. But if even one percent of what I present is on-target, then we're in a lot of trouble. The tyranny which has just been opened up full-throttle is beyond description in it's power to be destructive. With all the weapons available to our leaders, and with the blatant disregard for human life, if the Bushes and Clintons are even one percent as bad as I claim, then we're dead. All of us.

I've run into other forums where minutae is debated, and that's good. Accuracy is important. But it is SO LATE IN THE GAME now, and we are so close to total enslavement, that I just PUSH BUTTONS. ANY BUTTONS. WHAT UPSETS YOU...U.S. GOVT INVOLVEMENT IN SEPT 11? CHILD SEX-SLAVE RINGS? A FEDERAL COURT UPHOLDING A RULING THAT WE HAVE NO RIGHTS? WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET THROUGH? So I use the scattergun approach and hope someone will get upset about something. But then, the thing people get MOST upset about, is my posting 'style'. Geez. Gimme a break, folks. I really AM trying to alert people, not scare, and I make mistakes...

Like right now, I'm thinking I need to post a thing for y'all about the Wackenhut Prison Industry. Owned by the Bushes. 8 million people in the U.S. in prison. Most per capita in the world. That's why the 'war on drugs' was launched (one reason) to get young 'workers' into the penal system. They work for pennies an hour and prisons are awarded state, county and federal contracts. Slave labor, right here in the U.S. And it's a growing industry, thanks to the Cocaine Cartel and 'war on drugs' Bush # 1 was able to set up. And he helped FOUND Wackenhut...the # 1 prison builder in the U.S. I mean, some of this stuff is SO OBVIOUS I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING BUT MENTION THE NAME 'WACKENHUT' FOR YOU TO DO A SEARCH AND GET MAD!

End of sermon.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: DougR
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:19 PM

Rustic Rebel: Excellent suggestion! "Chicken Little" it is!

Kim C: Do you mean that in 1933 you didn't protest losing all those rights? Oh that's right, you weren't even the figment of anybody's imagination in 1933. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:25 PM

But I have no reason to think that even 1% of what you say is true. I have no reason to think the "Bushes and Clintons" are ven 1% as bad as you say. I have no reason to think that you're anything but a loony. If you want me (or anyone else) to think otherwise, you'll need to rethink your approach. I know, you don't really care if anyone believes you, you're just spreading the word and the rest of us can believe or be damned, but if that were really true, you wouldn't keep beating your drum, would you? You'd move on to someplace where you were appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:42 PM

I forgot to pose this question last post, but
Exactly Who Is Dubya's Army? Our brothers and sisters? Sons and daughters? Do you know where I'm going with this? Who will be the ones to try to bring us down, in your opinion spArrow? I'm interested in hearing that.
Peace, Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:45 PM

The Masons, the Illuminati, the Rosicrucians.... the NWO. "Them."

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:23 PM

The problem with this kind of malarkey (apart from the fact that it is malarkey) is that it distracts people's attention from the real issues.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:31 PM

The 'real' issue is that an unelected president has taken us from record surpluses to near-record debt and brought us to the brink of WW3 and not allowed an investigation of Sept 11 and DOES BUSINESS WITH THE BIN LADEN FAMILY. His family owns major shares in Wackenhut Security (which is on a prison-building spree) while he takes away your rights and criminalizes everything. His representatives have SAID he will provoke the terrorists to attack us (look up Rumsfeld's P2OG statement), which INSURES nuclear war. You won't know what the 'real' issues are even when Paki mercenaries are standing in your living room debating whether to kill or let you make their lunch first. Grow up. You have the largest library in the world at your fingertips, and you still know nothing about the real world. It has been the job of all Presidents since FDR to let the world crime syndicate have their way with the U.S. (either by aiding the globalists or at least staying out of their way). We've been treated kindly because we've been a safe haven for money, and that's the ONLY reason we haven't experienced third-world type calamities. But now all that's over. They don't need to park their money in the U.S. anymore. It's now going to China. This is it. The endgame for America. The multi-layered legislation to legally exterminate you is in place, and the concentration camps are built. And now our troops are being shipped out of the country while our government PROMISES us there will be another terrorist attack 'not if, but when'.

Now, what were you saying about 'real' issues?

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM

The Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG) -- as described in an internal briefing drafted this summer to guide other Pentagon agencies -- would carrry out "secret operations aimed at 'stimulating reactions' among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction -- that is, for instance, prodding terrorist cells into action and exposing themselves to 'quick-response' attacks by U.S. forces."

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2002/11/000092.html

I doubt you'd have the guts to look this up. Rumsfeld considers your and your family bait.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Mrs. Earbore
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:50 PM

Wackenhut is a mere subsidiary of of the corporate giant Group4 Falck built and controlled by the nasty Canadians. I think they should be locked in concentration camps. They are obviously trying to take over the United States. Otherwise why would they have cavity searched my poor little Yorkies at the Bluewater Bridge last summer on our way to the summer place? The Canadians are the real perpetrators of world corporate domination.
Mrs. Audley Earbore, III

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 12:42 PM

I'm fully aware of the real issues, GUEST. I can read, I can listen, and I can cruise the internet as well as anyone else. But I can also think. You start with a few facts (a fair amount of what you say is true), and the conclusions you draw from those facts, plus a lot of stuff you pull out of thin air, make things look far worse than they really are. God knows, they are bad enough as is. I am reminded of the excesses of some of the more vocal activists during the Sixties. Things were a mess, but the gross exaggerations of these people made the rest of the activists look like a bunch of asses, so many folks just didn't pay attention to anything activists said, considering them all a bunch of raving, wild-eyed kooks. Barfing out this rampant paranoia is not helping.

Also, I think you get your rocks off by repeatedly telling other people how stupid and ignorant you think they are compared to your own worldly wisdom. I'm older than dirt, I've been through a lot of crises, and I've met your kind before.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

I looked up http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2002/11/000092.html. It's about an article about a plan. So? All sorts of wacky things get thought about and discussed in plans. And one really needs to consider the source of anything one reads. Especially on the web. Internet journalism is not exactly notorious for reliability - even less so than print & broadcast. Anyone, after all, with a computer, a modem, and a few bucks a month can be Editor-in-Chief of an "Alternate Journalism" Webzine.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 05:08 PM

"secret operations aimed at 'stimulating reactions' among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction -- that is, for instance, prodding terrorist cells into action and exposing themselves to 'quick-response' attacks by U.S. forces."

As the article indicates, that is a direct quote from an internal pentagon briefing. Hard news or editorial, you don't use direct quotes unless you can back it up, especially when it comes to the murdering Bush family crime syndicate. Given enough time, we could locate the release on the internet, since the government's not hiding any of this tyranny. That was just the first article I found concerning P2OG on google. Look at the wording...it is not debatable. Our government's policy is now one of 'stimulating reactions' among terrorists. Provocation...which in itself is terrorism. And Americans are being used like bait in the process. That is unconstitutional (violates your right to life), and Rumsfeld should be tried and executed for it. He chose to take the oath to protect the constitution, and now he's issuing directives which will lead to the deaths of Americans. He's a traitor.

As for you Mr. Firth, I should be more respectful of your age, but you shouldn't discount what I have to say. I listened to Mel Gibson's dad last night. 84 years old. He said he began investigating the New World Order in 1947, after he returned from WW2 and then watched us give the world to the Soviet Union. And he began researching and by 1968 he won the national championship (or either Jeopardy or Concentration) and made enough money to relocate his family to Australia. 11 kids, and he didn't want any of them dying for Exxon and Brown and Root. And like I said, he's 84 and has been through lots of crises, like you have, and why would I listen to him and not to you? Sorry if I offended you. I have these mood swings between anger and rage lately the deeper I dig into how we're being manipulated.

I'm sure you do a lot of reading on the internet, but what I've read in the last year and a half has shown me that all the corruption and suppression of liberty going on around the world is connected. Septemer 11 is connected to the price of Wackenhut stock is connected to child disappearances in Bosnia is connected to DynCorp being convicted of sex-slave operations is connected to Marvin Bush handling security at the airports where the hijackers took off from is connected to GWBush's grandaddy doing buisness with Hitler is connected to GW's father heading the CIA and killing millions in setting up a Cocaine Cartel so he could create a 'war on drugs' is connected to none of the Bush associates going to prison for Enron and all the other ripoffs is connected to our 401k's being fair game just like the S&Ls were, etc. It's all tied together, and all the stories lead to a couple hundred crime organizations which are now hiding behind the shield of the U.N. The more I read the more obvious it becomes to me, so I sometimes wonder why others don't see it so I rub peoples' faces in the obviousness of it all. If they choose to continue hiding from the truth...at least I tried. The thought of Americans willing to give up the Constitution without a thought makes me want to puke. And now, according to some survey I heard about today, 1 out of 2 Americans think it was Iraq behind Sept. 11. The Bush people have been trying to make that connection, and it looks like they actually have. I mean, stupidity like that makes me want to weep. The world was never shown proof of Afghanistan's involvement, and we slaughtered that country so the opium crop could be replanted and Cheney could get the pipeline construction going again, and now Americans believe we are going to war with Iraq because Hussein was behind Sept. 11. I think my frustration is understandable.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 08:38 AM

relief is just a swallow away.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 01:16 PM

Sounds like a coward's way out. Don't you WANT to be part of history? Wouldn't it be GREAT to rescue the Constitution from destruction? We are FORTUNATE to have this chance. The enemies of the Constitution...so well-hidden over the past century...are panicking right now because the evidence of their crimes is being disseminated across the internet. They are panicking, and they are making mistakes. If just ten percent of Americans laid aside the football and the music and the sit-coms for a while and demanded an OPEN INVESTIGATION of Sept. 11, the world crime syndicate running our country would be exposed. And if it's not exposed, you will die in a concentration camp and the history books will be re-written to explain why you deserved death in a cloud of cyanide because you were an enemy of the 'Homeland', or an 'enemy combatant', or an 'Arab', or a 'Christian', or a 'militia' or an 'SUV owner' or a 'home schooler', etc. etc. etc. The perpetual war is against YOU, unless you take steps to stop it now.

http://www.infowars.com/newimages/Banners/text_911.gif

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 18 Jan 03 - 10:01 PM

Why are you spewing this on a folk music forum? Just curious. Seems to me there are a lot more congenial places on the web for this kinda stuff. Note carefully that I'm not telling you to go away or anything (not my place to do so). Just asking a question: why here?

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:22 PM

Just practicing freedom of speech. A right which those charged to protect are trying to take away. I used to write letters to my congressman and Senators, etc...and an occasional letter to the editor. But all branches of our government have now quit reading mail (due to the anthrax scare and 'high volumes of correspondence'), and most eidtors are now afraid to criticize the new fascist government (They're controlled by Rupert Murdoch or Sumner Redstone or some other corporate giant benefitting from the Bush Company's turnover of America to the corporations, so they -- the editors -- can't run letters critical of the new world order or they'll lose their jobs). So my letters no longer get printed.

And since the media in America has been locked down, that leaves online communication and word of mouth. I utilize both. Online I now email editorial writers who might reach thousands at a time. I send them my thoughts when I think appropriate and hope they pick up the idea and run with it. The rest I 'spew' on forums. Y'all are smart people, and if just ten of you did a followup search on one of the horrific situations I've described, then you're probably pretty upset. Anyway, I do this on other forums, too, and I hope people will check into some of the things I say.

I realized on Sept. 11, when Fox news was screaming 'Afghanistan' before the towers even fell that they were reading from a script. In the year and a half since, the connections I've discovered while researching that event and others has been revelatory. Our material world of appearances is not what it seems. I've listened to old men all my life say there's not a 'dimes worth of difference' between the Democrats and the Republicans (Will Rogers quote, I think), but they could never really explain what they meant. Well, now I KNOW why there's not any difference. All effort on the part of the two major political parties in the twentieth century was towards consolidation. First, consolidate private property into socialistic programs under the 'New Deal', then privatize and turn over that government property to corporations, which is happening now at an accelerated rate. End result is the same...dictatorial, tyrannical govt. Communism or Fascism. Two-headed snake. That's what I've learned in the past year and a half.

And now there is a massive assault against our Constitution in progress. The death blow. They terrified America with Sept. 11, and now, Americans are ready to run into the arms of the governmental terrorists after another 'attack'. Run into the arms of the very terrorists themselves. Our CIA created Saddam Hussein and bin Laden and the Taliban and the Viet Cong and Mao Tse Tung...and it HAS to stop sometime. And we won't get another chance to stop it after the Bush Company releases smallpox. They already have footage of kids having fun at army bases...footage of kids from a school in Maryland going to class at a nearby army base when the CIA sniper was running around...footage in the can and waiting to be shown to you on TV when the smallpox outbreak comes. You'll be shown that FEMA camps are goooood. They'll use the kid footage the way they used gun footage to disarm Australia...announce a gun collection day, where cash will be paid, then film people in line waiting to turn in guns. Show the guns being crushed in compactors. Wait 3 years, then announce a MANDATORY gun turn-in, and show the same footage so you think your neighbors are all complying. Makes YOU afraid not to join the line.

That's the kind of stuff I've learned since Sept. 11, and it steams me to no end. So I decided to forego my TV time and now, when I used to watch TV, I read and post on the internet. No football playoffs for me this year. No more until America is rid of the Un-American powers that are controlling our government. It's my duty to fight all enemies foreign and domestic. This seems to be the most effective way to do it.

By the way, the URL below is for a resolution you cna present to your local city council. Hundreds of American cites and towns have now passed similar resolutions against the USA PATRIOT Act. It simply states that your town will not go along with the unconstitutional aspects of the PATRIOT Act and the Homeland Security Act. Please look at it...it outlines some good points about the rights we lost under that legislation:

http://www.infowars.com/resolution_resist_tyranny.html

And now I'll be cut off for a day...your webmaster is doing what he can to keep this unpleasant stuff from you, and that's fine. This IS supposed to be a music forum. I have to keep a list of which forums I'm barred from and how often they have to reset so I can post again.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:31 PM

http://www.subliminal.org/mugbook/spooks/wackenhut.html

One of my favorite odd little web pages. The Bushes really ARE heavily invested in the American Prison system. Mostly through stock in Wackenhut.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:37 PM

Just a point of curiosity, GUEST. Are you a folk musician or folk music enthusiast at all? Or do you just search the web for sites where you can express your concerns?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 03:53 PM

I'm surprised I was able to get back here. I get booted off a lot of forums.

Yes, I like folk music. Like all kinds (even opera sometimes). I was trying to find some public domain info on 'Old Joe Clark' when I stumbled across this forum. That's how I come across most forums...when I'm not expecting them. And if you think Y'ALL are distressed by the things I post, imagine how the grannies on the recipe exchange feel.

Folk music...let's see...Astral Weeks, Gordon Lightfoot...but that's a bit modern. Tupelo Honey...I've listened to that a hundred times I bet. I like Texas music, which includes an incredible range from blues to jazz to country-western...conjunto, German polka. Woody Guthrie spent a lot of time in Texas. Honky Tonk music is great. Webb Pierce, Lefty Frizzell. Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys...decades ahead of their time...incredible musicians. I've given up TV because it's just too much wasted down-time, but I play music sometimes when I'm browsing the internet.

TV...it's a BIG mis-information machine right now, folks. Some of those people reporting KNOW they're lying to us...they are reporters and have checked their facts and sources, but then their stories get edited. Like, what happened to Iraq's 12,000 page inventory of weapons? They issued two copies for the U.N. Security Council, then the United States swooped in and seized both copies. Later, the sanitized report was released...only 3,000 pages long. That's NINE THOUSAND PAGES which outlined how the Bush and Baker families and hundreds of American and European businesses sold Hussein weapons. Someone told me that isn't even mentioned on the evening news.

The film I was talking about earlier...how it is canned and then saved for later use...during the Gulf War we were shown film of dead people in northern Iraq. Gassed by Hussein. Well, that footage was taken TEN YEARS BEFORE, just after Bush # 1 approved the sale of that gas by the Baker family to Hussein. But the footage was saved for ten years and then presented as a 'new atrocity' when Bush needed it.

And on top of TVs function to misinform and misdirect, I've begun to wonder about it's subliminal purposes. It seems every program synopsis I read now has someone torturing someone else. We're being conditioned to view torture as acceptable, and that's bogus. Torture is NOT acceptable, but if you see cops torturing night after night after night on TV, you'll come to think it's just the way things are.

During the 1960's, a lot of people thought Gilligans Island was real. The network running the show got dozens of calls and letters per week begging them to please rescue those poor people. Serious letters. And that was just a goof. But you can bet Army psy-ops made some notes on the phenomenon. And today, with the ADDITION of subliminal messages and cues on top of scenes of torture, I suspect Americans are being taught to accept their own torture.

So, I think you see my dilemma. Sure I want to go back to the way things were, but I can't. I've learned too much recently. And if I seem overly enthusiastic about this stuff, just go into a sports bar at playoff time and look at the incredible amount of energy being flushed down the urinal. Sad. Really sad. One terrorist act away from martial law and concentration camps, and people won't even adjust their lives just a little bit to preserve their way of life.

Sorry I rambled. On to the grannies now.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 04:13 PM

I know what you mean, sparrownoid. :-) I quit watching TV about 15 years ago. TV is mostly empty distraction and totally false propaganda. The Internet is an extraordinary phenomenon, because it allows real people to communicate openly with other real people all over the world. This is a tremendous opportunity for free-minded people to maintain their freedom, and it's the Achille's heel of the great, souless corporate system that is taking over the World all around us. We'll see how long it stays that way.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM

I think I've figured out (in my mind, you all may have already figured this one out), another reason for having two parties besides just to keep the voters in the US thinking we actually have a voice in how our government does things.

I think that the string pullers behind both parties are essentially the same people (nothing new there), and that they like having Democratic and Republican presidents ahd congresses, alternately.

Here's why:

Some of the issues that are important to them can only be addressed by one party or the other, but not both.

Here's an possible example just for the sake of this discussion: war and gun control. Anti-war, pro-gun control voters tend to be Democrats. Pro-war, anti-gun control voters tend to be Republicans. Let's say the string pullers want both gun control, and carte blanche to wage war. They need Republicans in office to get the war machine rolling, and then, once they get that going, they get Democrats in office to try to get gun legislation passed.

A good example of this in recent history is Clinton and welfare reform. No Republican could accomplish what he did with that, because it would have created to big a backlash against the Republican party. But Clinton was able to get Democrats to swallow it because most of them would rather have a Democrat who cut welfare than a Republican of any stripe.

But Clinton couldn't wage war on a large scale for the reasons the Republicans could; oil, and world domination.

I'm looking at Joe Leiberman as the next Democrat the string pullers will be backing. If my theory is true, he's got everything they want. He's hungry for war with Iraq, and he supports gun control.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:56 PM

The respected ex-MI6 spy-thriller author, John Le Carré, has some rather strong remarks about the bamboozle that has been sold by the current Madministration to the great American public:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-543296,00.html,

Enjoy!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,spArrownoid
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 07:18 PM

Good article. Eerie...I think I've posted some of the same thoughts regarding America worded almost the same way. The 'junta', etc. We look so, so bad in the eyes of the world, and it's just because the U.N. wants control of the oil resources in Iraq. Sure the Bushes and Cheney are oil people, but that's part of the big deception...the world can understand GREED on the part of the U.S. leaders, but this oil isn't going to the U.S. It's going to the U.N. And then the Central Asian oil will be shipped to China so their industry can grow. It won't mean squat to the price of gasoline in America. This is a military action meant to strengthen the U.N., and the U.S. 'oil men' are just being offered up as the simplistic explanation.

And Le Carre is right about diversions. There is a 'shock of the week' to take our minds off our appointed president (in the world's leading 'democracy'), to take our minds off the ENORMOUS corporate scandals going unpunished, destruction of the wall separating church and state, etc. And...above all...September 11. A thousand smoking guns are on the ground, but no one will pursue them more than one news cycle. Hitler burned the Reichstag to unify the people behind him, and the same thing happened here. Only, the evidence is all around Sept. 11. It was too big an operation...too many loose ends.

And Carol C. is right about the parties playing off against each other in order to advance things. But now, I think they're starting to abandon that pretense. The national leaders actually think the game is over. They think they won't have to worry about re-elections anymore and they'll be the overlords of their little states, so why go through the motions anymore? I mean, when conservatives have Federalized schools, religion and local law in the past 2 years, what's left for the Democrats to do? They're not even TRYING to pretend there's a difference between their totalitarian agendas anymore.

Oh, and on the music...The Bad Livers. Austin-based group. Three guys...banjo, washtub base and mandolin the times I've seen them. Their CDs are...different. Folksy in a hallucinatory sort of way. Remind me of a group called the Horseflies, but not as polished as the Horseflies, in my opinion, but it's incredible music. Thrash banjo I think the liner notes call it...and lots of studio filtering and tweaking...a real different experience. The Bad Livers.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 08:45 PM

I've noted, with a certain amount of amusement, that this thread jus' plain refuses to die... I've dropped back in after a week & more of watching the post count go up & seeing "BS: Tyranny" still keep appearing in the list...

Well, Guest has acquired some sort of handle & is starting to sound vaguely sane & civilized, as opposed to a rabid gun-nut 'nutball' (to borrow one of Bobert's terms...). Apart of from that, there seems to be no difference from when I last dropped by.

The real question is what *exactly* do you expect anyone to do?

Buy more guns?

Do you know anything about basic military doctrine? Concentration of force? The guvmint's always got more guns than you. And if it actually thinks you're worth wasting effort on, it's got more bodies (& guns) than you can hope to cope with. Guns are probably a bad idea then...

Write to your senator?

Well, 1) He'll probably think you're a... what was the word again... Ah! 'Nutball', that was it... Or 2) if he doesn't, congratulations, you just got yourself on the guvmint shit-list. Either way, no-one thinks your opinion actually matters.

So what do you achieve by trolling round BB's trying to 'alert' everyone to the danger they're in?

Let's be rational here, Guest Paranoid, who do you think is actually going to listen to you? Why do you bother? If you're wrong, well, you're just the nut that 99.9% of people probably already think you are. If you're right... Well, we're all already stuffed, aren't we? Because there's not a hope in hell (actually, there's probably more chance that Dubya will stick his hand up & say "It's a fair cop, I fixed dem elections, guv") that anyone with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together is going to believe you.

And if you *are* right, you're nothing more than a walking corpse, whatever you might trumpet about your own personal 'freedom'. Bugger your guns, sunshine, *if* you are right (& I'm landing on Mars next week...) the guvmint has a gun trained on you 24 hours a day. If there's the slightest possibility that you're vaguely connected to reality, you're not simply dead - you never existed...

I'm *definitely* with Don on this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 09:02 PM

That's a clever name for a band. It would suit veteran country musicians better, though, than your typical folkies. :-)

Carol - Wonderfully incisive point about the functioning of the Democratic and Republican parties, playing the public like an out-of-tune violin. It's the old "good cop - bad cop" routine, a routine also favored by police interrogators. The Democrats pretend to be touchy-feely Liberal nice guys defending your civil rights, the Republicans pretend to be God-loving patriotic tough guys defending America from aggression and subversion, and either way the great unspoken secret agenda moves forward...election after phony election. Whichever way the public looks ready to swing, the appropriate puppets are provided to mollify them...but your last presidential election was just a tad...unusual. A coup, I would call it.

All you need now is one more officially-labelled "terrorist" attack on the heartland, and you can kiss goodbye to even the pretense of democracy in the USA. And to think that they accused Bin Laden of attacking democracy! If he was consciously doing so, they couldn't have found it more convenient to the greater grand design.

SpArrownoid, I think that the same guys own the U.N. as do the US government and most other major governments, so the U.N. is just a handy instrument to advance their policy. Would you agree? I saw a book about this once, written in the 80's. It was called "Last Waltz of the Tyrants", and it predicted their worldwide fall. I hope it was right about that. The essential point in the book was that the people at the top had become basically souless, having arrived at an understanding of life that was based entirely on personal financial gain and the amassing of personal power by any means that worked. They justified it by assuming that they were being "realistic", if they bothered to justify it at all.

That is a policy which could be termed not just immoral, but completely outside even any structure or understanding of morality...an insane policy, in other words. Such things are easily accomplished when most people become just little cogs in huge organizations, and the left hand doesn't know or care what the right hand is doing. You see that all the time in our society. You couldn't get away with that kind of nonsense in a small Indian tribe or a frontier community where everyone knew everyone else personally, and was therefore accountable for his or her actions. The US Constitution arose out of that open, frontier mentality, and it owed much to the social/political traditions of Native America, which had revolutionized European social philosophy since around 1500, and played a big part in ending entrenched European ideas about monarchy and class.

Nowadays class means only one thing...money. If you've got billions, you are in the ruling class. If you've got millions, you're aspiring toward being in the ruling class, and can find the illusion of safety by living in some ritzy "gated community" and abusing your Filipina or Mexicana maid on weekends.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:31 PM

Raedwulf --

I think maybe this thread won't die because you folks view me as a bug to be prodded and studied. That's fine. A woman on the recipe exchange asked me for my 'fruit cake' recipe today. So be it. Or maybe y'all know I'm onto something here and are as concerned as I am.

As far as buying guns...you bet. We should all buy as many as we can afford. That's a stronger message than a letter to the editor. And the government DOESN'T have more guns and bodies, etc. WE are the government. The problem is there are a handful of corrupt execs at the top, and everyone below them is compartmentalized. The underlings work on a 'need to know' basis. Well, that is all about to change, because of the internet.

And what's a person to do? I circulate copies of a tape called '911 - The Road to Tyranny'. Two-hour overview of the New World Order and it's recent atrocities. I push the tape on cops and military. And they can NEVER view their roles the same after they watch it. And once they SEE evidence that their own commanders murdered at the Pentagon and the WTC...just WHOSE side are they going to be on? So there is no fixed 'army' in this war. I think a lot of trained soldiers will change sides and lots of material will quickly change hands or be rendered useless if hostilities ever break out in America.

And yeah, I seek out bulletin boards to post on. The more unconnected to politics the better, because political people seem to have a VERY tough time breaking their 'conservative versus liberal' mindset. I've discovered most 'liberals' and 'conservatives' are just searching for 'proof' to support their beliefs, and what I'm talking about is too far away from their familiar little worlds to accept.

As far as paranoia labels...sure, I'm paranoid. So what. I don't live in fear, though. If things are as bad as I say, what have I got to lose by trying to alert people? Are they going to call me NAMES before they shoot me? And if I'm imagining things, at least I'm experiencing an interesting psychosis. But you know I'm not imagining this. The globalists blew up the restaurant in Bali to get the Aussies onboard, blew up the French oil tanker off Yemen a few months ago when France threatened to hold back on Iraq, and the U.S. issued a 'terrorist alert' to Americans using Turkish airports a couple months ago when that country balked at U.S. demands. After the alert was issued, the Turkish govt. got in goose-step and the terrorist alert mysteriously disappeared. It is SO obvious who the real terrorists in this are....

Little Hawk --

Yeah, the last Presidential election was a coup de etat. When the winner was 'appointed', thousands of U.S. military were assigned to Washington D.C. to act as 'stand-ins' lining the motorcade route to the inauguration. They stood in their places during the rehearsal the day before, then the day of the inauguration they were given extended leave and 'encouraged' to return to the spots where they had been standing during the dry run. That was an absolute, textbook military coup we saw on inauguration day.

And yes, I think one more terrorist attack will create great changes in the U.S., but we'll see what happens when they start shooting grandmas at checkpoints. I think they'll have to nuke us to subdue us, and I'd like to think that even after that we'd refuse to give up fighting. I certainly don't want to live without my Constitutional rights. They can have my guns one bullet at a time.

And the same folks who own the U.N. DO own the U.S. now. The bin Laden family are billionaires, like the Bushes, and look at the statement by Ossama bin Laden below:

"I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in -- and the West in general -- into an unbearable hell and a choking life."

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/31/gen.binladen.interview/

That's not a threat from a foe...it's a statement of what is going to happen uttered by one of the insiders. One of the CEO's. The bin Ladens vacation with the Bushes and are in business with the Bushes. Ossama got a little tipsy with his stardom at the moment and had to rub our faces in it.

I never read 'Last Waltz of the Tyrants', but sure, the elite seem to be soulless. Insane, too. Some people believe there's method to their madness, though. The tens of thousands of 'genetic experiments' being funded by governments now, for example. I heard on the radio where Queen Elizabeth visited a McDonald's a while back but didn't eat anything. Hell no she didn't eat. The crap they're splicing into our corn and wheat and rice is meant to be absorbed by our bodies and genetically modify us on a cellular level. Someday our immune systems will be so out-of-whack that we won't be able to process enzymes or proteins or something...they don't care WHAT goes wrong just as long as we DIE. So the ruling elite are always sucking on bottled water and carrying their food around. Just thought I'd throw that in. Someone should've shoved a french fry in the Queen's mouth. Maybe she would have gone hysterical and admitted the whole plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:36 PM

Well, I guess you have to ask Patrick Henry why he bothered too, Raedwulf. Why not just give up or sell out to the powers that be? You see, it all depends on what you think life is actually about, doesn't it?

And on what you think is actually going on, of course...which is a matter of opinion. There is a slavering columnist for the Toronto Sun who just today referred to all the antiwar protestors as "Useful Idiots" (useful to Saddam, and to evil in general, I suppose...in his opinion.) That's his reality. He can't wait for the big corporate machine to uselessly kill another 100,000 Iraquis. I think he's a useful idiot for a system that is more evil than he can imagine, and that will flush him down the toilet as soon as he's no longer valuable to them.

We've all got our own versions of reality to deal with. You've stated yours and spArrownoid has stated his...quite clearly. I don't think he has any further need to explain why he's doing what he's doing, given what he believes.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 12:11 AM

SwallowNoid, you agree you are paranoid? Which one of these definitions fits?

paranoia
        Syllables:                  par-a-noi-a

        Part of Speech                 noun
         Pronunciation                 pae rE noy E
         Definition        1.        a severe mental disorder marked by persistent and very exaggerated delusions of being grand or important, or of being persecuted by others.
         Definition        2.        unrealistic suspicion and mistrust of others.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,spArrownoid
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 10:27 AM

yeah yeah yeah

'Useful idiots' was a term Lenin used to describe the masses. They weren't good for anything, in his mind, except to be herded around to do the bidding of the government. For what the explanation is worth.

And paranoia isn't necessarily severe. There are degrees. And if you can watch people jump out of hundred floor windows and then read about NORAD interceptors being held on the ground, you don't even have the amount of paranoia requisite for survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 10:37 AM

March 23, 1775

Patrick Henry was a marked man. Just a matter of time until he was hanged, and he knew it...

"...They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:19 PM

Stirring words, indeed. (I see now where Gdubya got his eloquence!)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 10:30 PM

Who is Gdubya? And what connection does Gdubya have to Patrick Henry?

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jan 03 - 11:59 PM

Answer: G. "Dubya" Bush & no real connection whatsoever. For connections, look to Bush and King George IIIrd of England for more obvious comparisons. They both ruled the greatest political & military power of their day in an almost completely irresponsible manner.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:10 AM

George III had no real power whatsoever. He was utterly incapable of actually contravening Parliament's will. Whether this is a similarity or difference between the two Georges is a debate best left to rabidly paranoid conspiracy theorists.

Subject: RE: BS: House Resolution 124
From: GUEST,Sparrownoid
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:35 AM

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.124:

GWBush has already said he'll sign this. Notice Patick Henry talked about the need to rush to stop the foreign menace before disarmament occurred. Comparing GWBush to Patrick Henry is as close as you can come to sacriledge in America. I'm ashamed of you, Ebbie.

---------

108th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 124
To provide for the mandatory licensing and registration of handguns.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

January 7, 2003
Mr. HOLT introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

-----------------

A BILL
To provide for the mandatory licensing and registration of handguns.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Handgun Licensing and Registration Act of 2003'.

SEC. 2. FEDERAL HANDGUN LICENSING AND REGISTRATION SYSTEM TO APPLY IN ANY STATE THAT DOES NOT HAVE A HANDGUN LICENSING AND REGISTRATION SYSTEM THAT MEETS CERTAIN REQUIREMENTS.

(a) IN GENERAL- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`Sec. 931. Licensing and registration of handguns

`(a)(1) The Attorney General shall establish a Federal system for the licensing and registration of all handguns owned, possessed, or controlled in the United States, which shall include a method for easily retrieving information sufficient to identify--

`(A) each resident of a State to which this subsection applies who owns, possesses, or controls a handgun; and

`(B) the handgun.

`(2) It shall be unlawful for a person to own, possess, or control a handgun in a State to which this subsection applies unless the person--

`(A) is licensed to do so by the system established pursuant to paragraph (1); and

`(B) has registered the handgun with a Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency.

`(b) Subsection (a) shall not apply in a State if there is in effect a certification by the Attorney General that the State has in effect a system for the licensing and registration of handguns owned, possessed, or controlled in the State that--

`(1) includes a method for easily retrieving information sufficient to identify--

`(A) each resident of the State who owns, possesses, or controls a handgun in the State; and

`(B) the handgun; and

`(2) at a minimum, imposes criminal penalties on any person who owns, possesses, or controls a handgun in the State, and who--

`(i) has not completed training in firearms safety;

`(ii) is not licensed by the State to possess a handgun; or

`(iii) has not registered the handgun with a Federal, State, or local law enforcement agency.

`(c) A certification under subsection (b) with respect to a State shall have no force or effect on or after the date the Attorney General finds, after an opportunity for a hearing on the record, that the State does not have in effect the system described in subsection (b).

`(d) The Attorney General shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to carry out this section.'.

(b) PENALTIES- Section 924(a) of such title is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(7) Whoever knowingly violates section 931(a)(2) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not less than 15 years, or both. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed under this paragraph or impose a probationary sentence under this paragraph.'.

(c) CLERICAL AMENDMENT- The table of sections for such chapter is amended by adding at the end the following:

`931. Licensing and registration of handguns.'.

(d) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall apply to conduct engaged in after the 2-year period that begins with the date of the enactment of this Act.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,sparrownoid
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:44 AM

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

(We are the well regulated militia. You and me. All American adults. That's why we don't need troops on the streets. Police can depend on the citizen army. And no law can supercede this. H.R.124 is null and void upon it's face. Waste of time and money to pass more unconstitutional gun laws.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:56 AM

"Whether this is a similarity or difference between the two Georges is a debate best left to rabidly paranoid conspiracy theorists."

AWRIGHT! Let's get to it, fellow rabid and paranoid conspiracy theorists! Bwa! Ha! Ha! Ha! (suitably maniacal laughter, a la Doctor Evil) What say, people? Does George Bush, like George IIIrd, have no real power? Is he just a puppet? Is he more or less in command of his faculties than the "idiot king", and does it matter? These are burning questions which MUST be answered, and quickly!

Hee! Hee!

When I was a kid I never even thought about this kind of shit...but on the other hand, I was being constantly harassed by bullying schoolmates, so maybe things have actually improved in some respects.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 10:22 AM

DougR, my daddy was only a teeny tiny toddler in 1933! And his parents were in the wilds of West Virginia, scraping out a living, and probably didn't even know what was going on in the rest of the world.

Sorry, GUEST, I ain't nobody's slave. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:09 AM

Tell that to the Pakistani mercenaries when they're having their way with you. Or with you husband.

You are the slave of a million federal, state and local laws. Absurd laws. You can't do what you want. You've been TOLD you can, and you pay your taxes and don't peep and buy into the lie.

All you folks with IRA's and savings...when the war comes (oh, that's right...the perpetual war is already here), well, the Republicans are just itching to freeze all privately-held bank accounts. As a 'reserve cash supply' to support the war effort. It's coming. They just changed the rules on 401K's so your employer no longer has to gurantee you'll receive anything when you retire (that in itself is a larger rip off than the S&L's, but Americans don't know or care about their history...Kim C. as an example...or they're too mesmerized by the Sopranos and the playoffs to hear the single little blurb on the news about 'congressional concern over retirement'.) Well, the governmental concern over retirement is that you might actually demand what you paid for. So they're just going to make it impossible for you to retire.

The day CNN ran the story about the change in 401K rules, they immediately followed it with a 'feel good' story about older Americans returning to the workplace in droves. Showed old-timers bagging groceries, etc., and the story said it was partly a sign of the times, but it sure beat boredom. I heard about the story, described it that way to a retired relative who said that was EXACTLY the way CNN (run by Army psy-ops) had aired the pieces.

And the bad thing about our situation now is that congress gave GWBush the authority to launch a war against ANY nation, at ANY time. I hope Iraq is just a diversion, but if it is, there's still GWBush with the power to launch any war he wants. That's unconstitutional. But if he DID launch a war, anywhere, your bank accounts would probably be frozen. Your IRAs would DEFINITELY be frozen.

The globalist-controlled government of the U.S. has taken us from record surpluses to deficits, and we have no manufacturing ability which can be used to pull us out of this slump. The stock market is being artificially propped up by the U.S. govt., and 401K money is now being stolen, and your life's savings are next. And once we are all in debt up to our ears, the money supply will be restricted. You won't be able to even get your hands on money. And, well, we will be told the only alternative is a 'cashless society'. That's why surveillance is such a big deal right now. The government plans to track and tax your every move and get you in debt 110% to the Company Store. That's why Wal-Mart has said by the end of the year, half of their products will contain tracking chips. Sand-sized chips that will be registered to you on check-out and which cops, satellites, etc. will be able to pinpoint thereafter. The hi-tech tyranny being set up is mind-boggling. And it will be used to control and tax. It will ultimately be used to determine whether you can breed...aggressiveness will be bred out of the human race.

Kim C....you are more of a slave than you could ever imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:18 AM

The scenario you describe with regard to money in bank accounts reminds me a lot of what Escamillo was saying about what was going on in Argentina a few months ago.

Does anyone know how the situation in Argentina has resolved itself if, indeed, it has?

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:21 AM

Lurker and Little Hawk, y'all might want to start a thread about George W. Bush vs George III. There seem to be a lot of Brits on this forum, and I'd be interested to hear what they have to say about the Moron who lost America. Didn't George III lose America before he lost his mind? I always suspected they just poisoned him so they could blame their military incompetence on 'forces beyond their control'. But then I see the Morons in the Windsor family and have to reconsider. Aren't they the same insane bloodline?

But then there's OUR George, and he's certainly a study in contradictions. Crazy or stupid? Who knows. But he DOES seem to have power (though I'd like to think someone with some sense will do another 'pretzel' on him if he ever reaches for the nukes). So that might be an interesting thread.

I think I should start one on our hi-tech tyranny. That's where we're headed...a world of surveillance and monitoring beyond even the wildest paranoid dream...and people don't even seem aware of it.

BY THE END OF THIS YEAR, PEOPLE, WAL-MART HAS SAID HALF THE ITEMS IT SELLS WILL HAVE TRACKING CHIPS IN THEM. SEWN INTO HEMS, MELTED INTO PLASTIC BOTTLES, ETC. 3 CENT CHIPS MADE HERE, SHIPPED TO CHINA TO BE ADDED TO ITEMS, THEN TRACKED FROM THE FACTORY TO YOUR STORE SHELF. IN A YEAR'S TIME YOU WILL HAVE HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF ITEMS IN YOUR HOUSE WITH CHIPS IN THEM...AND THE 'COP ON THE BEAT' WILL BE ABLE TO COME TO YOUR DOOR WITH A SCANNER AND MAKE SURE ALL YOUR BELONGINGS ARE 'REGISTERED' TO YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:31 AM

ARGENTINA...

That is EXACTLY the situation we are facing. The U.S. will be the last on the block to experience this (the World Bank said they would foreclose on Japan if the Nikkei Exchange ever dipped to 8100), but that would create a global collapse...collecting on Japan's debts. I expect Japan and the U.S. will fall at the same time.

In the U.S., we are going to see new twenty dollar bills at the end of this year. And far fewer of them. Then other denominations will be restricted. When there is less money in wallets, we will be urged to use credit and debit cards. Thumbscanners will be installed in all stores and will be mandatory (going on now all over Texas, but only for 'check cashers' and 'credit and debit cards'). This is exactly what happened in Argentina, and then, three years after the thumbscanners went in, the economy collapsed. The World Bank strong-armed the government into abolishing cash. Cashless society. People with tens of thousands in the bank were told they would get an 'allotment' of two hundred bucks a month.

I haven't done a search of the Argentinian situation in a while, but the last I heard, one of their revolving Presidents had the GUTS to say they would never pay off the World Bank debt.

And then, a couple weeks ago, the World Bank came out with a plan to let countries declare bankruptcy.

The middle class in Argentina was destroyed and are eating dogs. That's the last I specifically read on it.

http://news.google.com/

The above is an INCREDIBLE search engine that sorts headlines constantly. You might try using it just like google...type in 'Argentina bankruptcy'...something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:35 AM

Oh, and get rid of your credit cards, folks. I can't find the legislation, but congress is considering something that, according to the radio report, will make identity-theft easier. The U.S. govt. wants ALL citizens in debt. And soon, your credit cards will be considered 'assets' to be seized. You owe the govt?...they'll just charge it to your card the way they now 'attach wages'. It's coming, but what's more worrisome is news that 'identity theft' will be made easier. What if someone maxed out all your credit cards today and the government insisted you were responsible for the debt? Y'all might want to look into that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 11:57 AM

With all of this ranting about how government is going to drive us all into debt, eliminate cash, etc., you seem to have lost track of the fact that the entire economy and everything dependent on it is a construct of government. If the U.S. government wanted to make such overt attempts to indebt the society, they could simply declare printed money, checks, and credit cards not legal tender. That would be as effctive as any measures you have described and far faster. Obviously, people would continue to use the money, but they will in any event. Either rebellion will be effective, in which case none of your prophesies is a danger, or it will not be, in which cae it's already too late.

The restriction of hadguns is neither a violation of the Second Amendment nor a threat to citizens' ability to defend themselves. If you think that any pistol will scratch the paint on an APC, or be anything but a gesture against troops with assault rifles and LAWs, you are sady mistaken. If you are truly convinced that you must defend yourself against the Feds, get a deer rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:31 PM

All that WILL be declared illegal. It was in Argentina. The banks closed. You couldn't get your assets. But they still have their debts and are being threatened with eviction. So....the government says the way out is a 'cashless society'. That way, everything can be regulated to insure 'security'. They got the people in debt, then they told them that, to keep what they had, they had to switch to the new system.

That is happening in the U.S. Cash is going to undergo a change this year. Fewer twenties in circulation. You won't have cash, so you'll use some other form of card or check. In a couple of years the politicians will say they need to do something to help us out, and we'll be given national accounts. Just like in Argentina.

I don't see how that is so hard to understand. As far as why it's not done NOW, it's too soon. The global banking cartel doesn't want to blow up the planet...they just want 80-90% of us to die. And then, they'll control the population growth in the future. To crash the world economy now would mean chaos, and they can't be sure they'd survive the wars and plagues. They want to lower the world into a depression slowly, and then offer us a way out with hi-tech banking. Complete control over whether you eat or die. If you're bad this month, no food next month.

And as far as handguns, no one has the right to restrict them. They are ideal home defense. Small, can be locked up, deadly. And as you point out, small guns are no threat to the military, so why target them? And that 'for the children' argument has no validity. This bill is an assault against your ability to defend your home. The govt. wants you defenseless and tied to a debit card. THEN you have to do community service at 80 years of age or not earn your gruel.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:49 PM

Last time I checked, I could still do everything that I personally wanted to do, except import haggis from Scotland. The USDA doesn't want us eating sheep organs. But that's okay, because there's plenty of other animal organs available. And, there's a place in the US that makes USDA-approved haggis from beef parts.

Happy Robert Burns Day, y'all. That's this Saturday. :-)

When there's no cash, we'll just go back to using things like shells and beads. And I've got plenty of beads!

GUEST, when the crisis occurs, the Human Will will prevail. It always does.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 01:45 PM

No. The Human Will will NOT prevail. Not unless it asserts itself NOW. You can't trivialize your way out of this.

You have lost INCREDIBLE rights just with H.R. 3162, the USA PATRIOT Act. Warrantless secret searches. Destroy the Fourth Amendment. Sections 213, 214, 215, I believe. Cops can come into your house when you're gone and take anything they want, and if they get pressed to cover their asses, they can fall back on 'delayed' warrants. They can get 'permission' to search your house after they've invaded. They can take your sterling silverware if they think you got it by 'terrorism', they can take anything as 'evidence'. Your computer, your love letters, anything. And they never have to let you know they were there. And since it's a matter of 'national security', if you ever tell anyone, you are an enemy combatant and will be 'disappeared'.

Do you truly not KNOW this? Amazing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Have a Coke and a Smile. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 02:04 PM

GUEST, I don't need to explain myself to you nor do you have a right or reason to be 'ashamed' of me but my point (way up there) was how far we have fallen from the eloquence of a Patrick Henry.

But do stop and think. If the administration and the Congress are as far along in conspiracy as you say, why are YOU still alive and talking?

Nah. We've never been that efficient. You present just enough credible information and premises mixed with absolute nonsense to be unsettling.

Reminds me of something I wrote back in 1973 or so, when the "oil/gas shortage" (bogus)kept us all in long lines at the gas stations. I did what you are doing: Went from A to Z in a logical progression of planned collapse of the system, without considering the fact that by H, another road had been charted.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 03:21 PM

You're a big one for 'naming your sources' Ebbie, so why don't you look at the government's own releases? Go LOOK at the PATRIOT Act.

In the past two years, the 'conservative', 'smaller-government' Republican / Conservatives have:

Federalized education by tying fed money to national testing. You don't perform, your school doesn't get paid. And the curriculum (we saw this in Texas under Bush) will be simple-minded. The purpose is to dumb down the kids. The world government pulling our government's strings doesn't CARE about us. We've been bought off with material possessions and comfort. But the KIDS are being dumbed-down and brainwashed.

Federalized religion. In America. Against the Constitution. But the Bush junta has tied federal money to certain 'rules' for churches. And the churches are grabbing for all they can. With the money comes Federal control, though. The wall between church and state is now GONE.

Federalized cops. The Feds are giving local cops cars, guns, humvees, radar, and money for extra officers. And that was BEFORE the Homeland Security Act created a national police force...a Gestapo.

The McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform bill outlaws any organization which makes political contributions from mentioning in ads or interviews an incumbent's voting record 60 days before a general election or 30 days before a primary. Absolute violation of the First Amendment. This begins in 2004. But, so you won't know about it, the congress gave David Letterman and Jay Leno dispensation. THEY can continue with the jokes, but before the next election, hundreds of talk show hosts are going to disappear. Literally. For exercising freedom of speech.

And the PATRIOT Act...redefines domestic terrorism to mean anyone who commits a crime. Allows cops to go into your house and steal anything and plant surveillance devices whenever they want and never have to tell you or get a warrant.

And recent Executive Orders....you can be named an enemy combatant by the President (Lenin once accidentally initialled a piece of paper that was an execution order for 10,000). And once you are an enemy combatant, you can be tortured and executed without ever seeing a lawyer. The CIA already killed one American to test this, and they got away with it (killed an American in Yemen, and a court ruled it was legal)

Go back and look at JFK's Executive Orders after the Cuban Missile Crisis...those orders alone created a dictatorial Presidency, under times of 'national emergency'

A Federal court recently ruled you can be drugged at any level of the imprisonment system, before trial. So, if you are taken in for speeding, they can shoot you full of Thorazine. In America.

Federal courts have ruled the government can now take your property without compensation

The Homeland Security Act mandates the quarantine of all U.S. cities for the 'threat' of a bioattack.

The Germans got tagged at Nuhremburg for not crossing their Ts and dotting their I's. They tried to claim everything they did was according to German law, but it wasn't. The American Reich won't make the same mistake. There are Multiple layers of legal coverage on every heinous crime you can imagine...just waiting there to present to the world court after the culling process is over in America.

I mean, what does it TAKE to spook you folks? LOOK at the legislation. It's not imagined and it's not nonsense. I gather most of you Americans are Democrats...liberals...well, I guess that's why you're supporting this stuff. It's Communism in action. But did you factor in the concentration camps? Do you think they're not for YOU?

The gun stuff above...the new bill...they're just now implementing the horrific details of the 1968 Gun Control Act, which technically disarmed Americans, but it took them 35 years to grow teeth enough to enforce it. And now they are. So all the stuff I just outlined may seem impossible to enforce, but it's not. U.N. troops pouring into America will see to that. And it could happen overnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 03:28 PM

Y'know, all of this is an excellent argument for living in a much simpler place, like Trinidad, Guiana, or some such place, with a warm climate and people in the country living the old style village life, and actually growing a lot of their own food, and helping each other out. Things like debit cards, credit cards, and all the other regulated stuff are FAR less vital in such a society, and you can get by entirely without them, and no one can keep track of who you are or where you are because the electronic means to do it simply isn't there.

I am keeping this well in mind.

Interestingly enough, WalMart gives me the creeps, and I have never ever bought one single thing from them. I went to look at the store twice, and that was it. I avoid that place.

I received a letter today from my Canadian bank advising that in order to keep track of "money laundering", FINTRAC, a government agency, now requires that the Bank report all cash transactions on behalf of a single customer that aggregate to C$10,000 equivalent or greater within a 24 hour period. FINTRAC means the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada.

It's brand new legislation effective January 31st, 2003. The public was not consulted beforehand, naturally, but they are being so informed after the fact.

It's well known already that there is not nearly enough actual cash in the sytem to match the supposed deposits in people's accounts (probably not even 5% of it). If there should be a panic for cash, the banks will all have to shut their doors and freeze deposits. If that happens and you are in debt, you're screwed. Most people ARE in debt, as that is the norm in this society. I hope you are not.

All cross border transfers of C$10,000 or more will now be monitored as well. That amounts to about US$6,600 a day. That's effective Mar 31/03.

People are very vulnerable in western society, because they do not live a real "community" life (as I experienced recently in the Ashram in Trinidad), but are on their own, protected only by their money, their credit card, and their debit card. The system can simply shut them down overnight if it wants to and render them helpless. They don't have cows, chickens, vegetable gardens, or any way of surviving without money.

People are far less vulnerable in a traditional simple village lifestyle in a warm climate with an extended family around them, as is the case in the rural areas of the 3rd World, unless, of course, the big fat machine decides to turn their country into a bombing range or start a civil war there.

If the banks close their doors, you won't be able to get into your safety deposit box either. Keep it in mind.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:13 PM

Kim C: you LIKE haggis?

(I can't believe you folks are still feeding this guest)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM

Throwin' a Robert Burns party. Gotta have it. :-) I'm fixin neeps & tatties too, and homemade shortbread. All of which I still have the right, and the ability, to do. And after supper, we're going to engage in the playing of live music in the living room, which, I believe, is also still entirely legal. Although one of the parties to the party is a best-selling author who was in the military back in the 60s, so he's probably on the FBI's hit list somewhere, or got a chip in his head, or something. So I guess we'll be busted when the black helicopters land in the back yard. But it's okay, because at least I'll die in the company of friends. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:37 PM

I doubt you're important enough to warrant that kind of attention at this point, Kim. :-) I know I'm not. I enjoy being relatively unimportant...

spArrownoid - There are one or two things I would like to PM you about (private message), but I can't because you're not a member of the forum. Would you consider registering as a member so I can PM you? It's simple enough...you just register yourself as "spArrownoid" in the Membership section, and you'll need a secret code of course to log in.

It's up to you.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:29 PM

This thing has a PM system? I'll look into the registration process and think about it.

Meanwhile, I'll do some research on Hi-Tech Tyranny. Need to find some URLs like at the beginning of this one.

My point would be that people DON'T REALLY KNOW what is awaiting us, but based on past experience, it won't be good. For example, cameras at intersections. Lots of cities now use them and mail tickets to people who are photographed entering the intersection on a red light. And some cities want more revenue, so the yellow-light time has been shortened...to catch more people. Problem is, more people are now dying in collisions at intersections.

So if you folks think all this technology is benign (for the kids, to save lives, etc.), it's not. It depends on who controls it. And some of the technology is MIND BOGGLING. And if a simple camera can be abused by local authorities at intersections, what will they do with the microchips when they're injected into us? Or nanotechnology...molecule-sized machines which could be sprinkled on food and then activated if you're bad...eat their way through your system and rupture the nearest artery. That stuff is available RIGHT NOW. And that is how we will be controlled in the future...monitor us through microphones in telephones, computers, TVs, cable boxes...track the chips embedded in everything we buy....construct psych profiles based on how many minutes of Tom Brokaw we watch before switching channels...push masturbatory video games on the kids...subliminally advertise the government's propaganda...

That last...governmental propaganda...that's what I'll look for tonight. I've heard on talk shows about the FEMA system which is being finished up...tied into the bogus 'Amber Alert' system. Soon, FEMA will seize control of all media on a daily basis. TV, car radio, etc. Your phone will ring with important government information. And if you hang up, a note of that will be made. The technology for that is almost in place, from the interview I heard.

Anyway, I'll think about that PM thing, Little Hawk. I'll check into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:33 PM

But...but...what if the government found out I had a BAD THOUGHT?! Oh me oh my!

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 03 - 09:42 PM

No, no...it's people with good thoughts that worry them. :-) People with bad thoughts are easily recruited to do the nastier work. Like I say, best thing is to go somewhere that's not all that modern if you can, with a minimum of automation and a maximum of real natural life. I can't tell you what to do if you want to live in downtown Dallas or Detroit, however.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 10:22 AM

Well, I don't think I'm that important either, LH, but if we're all being watched.... well, you know.

And GUEST, you're right that we really don't know what awaits us. We never do. But still we must endeavor to persevere. Sometimes it means planning ahead, and sometimes it means thinking on the spur of the moment. That's why we're still here on this planet.

I don't know about anyone else, but I still have faith in humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 12:45 PM

(The things you turn up while doing searches. This page from one of the Army's own sites seems to be from 1995. 'Cost avoidance' = slave labor):

http://www.hqda.army.mil/acsim/ops/inmatebg.htm

The Army has established civilian inmate labor programs on twelve installations since FY 89. Four resident programs (prison camps) are at Fort Bliss, Fort Dix, and Camp Atterbury. Eight non-resident (off-post) programs are at Parks Reserve Forces Training Area, Red River Army Depot, Fort Lee, Fort McClellan, Fort Stewart, Fort McPherson, Fort Indian Town Gap, and Anniston Army Depot. Fort Dix has two resident programs (prison camps) using civilian inmates from both federal and state penal systems. Camp Atterbury's resident program uses state civilian inmates. These ten programs average an annual net cost avoidance ranging from $263,000 to $3,500,000....

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 12:55 PM

Amendment XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM

Wow, Kim...that's quite an amendment! Seems to me that Stalin and Hitler were able to find literally millions of "duly convicted" persons with very little trouble at all, and I daresay it can be done in the good ol' USA too. Imagine that...carte blanche for establishing the institution of slavery in a nice legal fashion. All that's necessary is to decide that someone has committed a "crime", and that all depends on how you define "crime", doesn't it?

Interestingly enough, a good many Latin American countries have excellent constitutions, modelled pretty closely on the American Constitution, but that has not stopped various dictators in those countries from abrogating every human right and committing every atrocity whenever they wanted to. It's easy when you control the courts, the military, the media, and the law enforcment agencies. And how do you control them? By guns and money.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 01:54 PM

Services provided by inmates are defined by 18 USC 4125(a) and include preservation and maintenance of grounds and facilities; construction, repair and demolition of buildings; road repair; custodial services; and transportation of debris to recycling centers. Only minimum security inmates are available under the Army's civilian inmate labor program. Army personnel do not provide security supervision of inmate work details, but do monitor and account for inmate presence or absence in an assigned work area. from the link given by GUEST above

I'm of two minds about this. Obviously it takes away jobs from the people, but at the same time, it saves money and teaches skills and work habits and it makes sense to me if rehabilitation, not punishment, is the main rationale for incarceration.

At the Oregon Correctional School outside Salem, there are vast fields where the inmates used to plant and harvest many of their own food. All of it in-house, none of it sold on the market. The practice was discontinued when the local unions raised the issue. The fields now lie empty.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 02:33 PM

Around here it is quite common to see people in the custody of the Corrections Department picking up trash alongside the road. Sometimes it is part of the "community service" people have to do for their first DUI arrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 06:14 PM

You see, the thing about laws is that a well-intentioned government will generally use them in the fashion in which they were orginally intended, while a government with dictatorial intentions will not. The written law alone is not sufficient to protect people. The crucial matter then is, what are the actual intentions of those in charge at the top in any given system?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jan 03 - 08:31 PM

I don't necessarily have a problem with using inmate labor if the prisons are a part of a government owned and operated penal system, if the object is rehabilitation, and if any revenues coming from the inmates' labor is used only for the operating costs of the prison.

But I do have a problem with prisons being operated for profit and using the labor of the inmates as a part of the profit making apparatus. This sort of thing is ripe for abuse, and smacks of slave labor.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM

The people setting this tyrannical world government up are pushing all the 'insecurity' buttons. And one of the chief ones is female insecurity (they push male insecurity buttons too, ladies). But the government tells women that it...government...will protect them, if they just go along with mandatory sentencing, disarmament, etc. And the guys picking up trash on the side of the road are just walking billboards for the government's slavery system. But the government cannot protect you from random violence, and cops cannot protect you. You know that, and the cops and military, and the criminals know that. So don't support an illegitimate penal system. And this one...I mean, would YOU want to be considered a 'cost avoidance' device? Come on.

I know kids who talk about getting an 'early release day' from school. They get out at noon and when I ask, they say it's an 'early release day'. That's prison terminology. I talked to a kid the other day who mentioned her 'community service', and when I asked how a CHILD could have to do community service, she said she had too many absences in school. And now she has a criminal record. I mean, have you folks who support this stuff gone nuts?

I'll go over this once again. Bush # 1 killed millions in order to set up his cocaine cartel and cocaine importation business. While he got Reagan to launch a 'war on drugs'. Cops were given incentive to enforce drug laws over all others because they get 10% of the property seized in drug cases. Mandatory sentences were established for drug convictions. Our prisons are full of harmless dope smokers as a result, while the VIOLENT people are released so they can go back into society and generate revenue in the only way they know how...kill others so lawyers can be employed and state money can be spent on trials (and citizens will get more insecure and support more imprisonment). 8 million Americans in prison, and the number is about to explode because NOW they are connecting 'drugs and guns'. Watch cops on TV and read articles about car searches, etc. They always mention 'looking for guns and drugs'. So that link has been made in the cops' minds and in ours. And now they're equating drugs with terrorism and with SUV's.

Law students at Northwestern cleared ten men on death row in Illinois...just as a CLASS PROJECT. And the nation is all steamed because the exiting Governor commuted all death sentences in that state. Our 'justice' system is so corrupt, don't support by backing slave labor.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:46 PM

I really think you should get help Guest.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:41 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,76298,00.html

COLMES: And you firmly believe that what happened on September 11 will happen again in the United States?

(Former Senator) GARY HART: Yes, well, not that. What will happen sooner rather than later is probably a biological attack on multiple targets in the center of this country. Probably smallpox in Denver, Cleveland, and Dallas.

(Gary Hart is a member of the CFR...Council on Foreign Relations...one of the globalist groups which is orchestrating the end of American sovereignty...so we can be absorbed into a world government. Ten years ago, people were denying the CFR even existed...anyone who mentioned it was a 'conspiracy theorist'. And now, every time there is a terrorist attack on America, Hart makes an appearance and outlines what new repressive legislation is going to be passed, what rights Americans will be expected to give up, etc. The CFR makes these pronouncements as suggestions or predictions, but they're in actuality a peek ahead at what is to come. The CFR GUIDES U.S. policy...it doesn't advise. But Hart tore his pants in this interview. He named the cities the globalists plan to attack next. The globalists NEED a war with Iraq so the CIA can release smallpox in Denver, Cincinnatti and Dallas, and blame it on Saddam Hussein. If this really does happen as Hart said, all cities in the U.S. will be cordoned off in a matter of hours once smallpox appears, and no one will be allowed to leave. Within 4 days there will be massive food riots in the cities, and the police will be ordered to stand down, like they were during the L.A. riots. Rioters are expected to kill any 'resistance movement' within the cities...people who have guns, water, food, Bibles, etc, (thus saving the military that task). Outside the cities, fleeing city-dwellers will pillage and kill, and after a couple weeks the Bush Company will bring in 'foreign assets'...U.N. troops...peons from third-world countries who will shoot you for your gold fillings. Gary Hart is a terrorist, folks, and he just arrogantly told us what is going to happen next. He also said 'sooner rather than later', and the fascist Hannity praised him for being 'ahead of the game' when it comes to calling terrorist attacks.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:22 PM

Gary Hart:
If the United States is prepared to go it alone, if we expect serious casualties, if we have a plan for a prolonged occupation and if the cost of the entire operation is considerable and continuing, the American people deserve to be told.

That is why the Constitution leaves to Congress -- the collective representatives of the people -- the sole authority to declare war. The U.S. armed forces belong to the people, not the president. For the people to support the deployment of their Army, they must understand what is at stake and why. Otherwise, vague polling data about "supporting the president" can disappear overnight with the sight of body bags returning home.

Gary Hart:
A second set of urgent questions has received even less attention. They can be stated simply: Are we ready for the virtually certain retaliatory terrorist attacks on our homeland if we invade Iraq? The evidence suggests that we are not. Those attacks would not necessarily come from Iraq or Iraqi interests; they could come from elsewhere in the fundamentalist Islamic world, or even from outside it. But a major U.S. invasion of a Muslim country would almost certainly trigger serious attempts to kill Americans. (emphasis mine. Eb)

And also Gary Hart:
Prudent leadership would say to the American people, "We will go to war in a dangerous part of the world only when we know what we are doing and what our plans are, only when we are prepared for the consequences here at home and only when our nation is united -- public and private sectors -- to conduct this war to a successful conclusion."

"We predicted it," former Senator Gary Hart said on Sept. 12, 2001. "We said Americans will likely die on American soil, possibly in large numbers -- that's a quote from the fall of 1999." (Actually, December 6, 1999. Ebbie) The quote comes from the Phase One Report of the U.S. Commission on National Security for the 21st Century, which was co-chaired by Hart and former Sen. Warren Rudman, R-NH,. But, before 9/11, no one seemed to much care about their conclusions. During our Sept. 12 conversation, Hart said he was "tearing (his) hair out" in frustration.

He still has criticisms and strong ideas as to how he would handle things differently. "Within a week after 9/11," Hart said Wednesday. "I would have begun a search for a new CIA director... It's important to say, if you're running a big institution -- and that institution suffers a serious deficiency -- that you will be held accountable. But if nobody is sacrificed for a failure then nobody is accountable. "

He also has harsh comments about the FBI's anachronistic worldview. "The ghost of J. Edgar Hoover is still in that damn [FBI] building!" Hart says. "They need to clean it out and start all over again."

Hardly the words of a traitorous conspirator. I don't know where you got your opinions, GUEST, but they don't seem backed up by facts.

And keep in mind, - Denver is Hart's hometown.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:21 PM

"We predicted it," former Senator Gary Hart said on Sept. 12, 2001. "We SAID Americans will likely die on American soil, possibly in large numbers -- that's a quote from the fall of 1999."

They didn't predict it...they PROMISED IT! Just like Cheney promised we would be attacked if there was more than one congressional investigation into 9-11. These are PROMISES, not predictions. Hart SHAPES policy in America, and America needed a 'Pearl Harbor-like' event, in Brezinski's words (another CFR member), to bring about the next phase of social engineering (destruction of the Constitution). Defend that mafia whore Hart all you want, but the day after Sept 11 he was on TV gloating about how 'now is the time to initiate a new world order'. They engineered their event and then capitalized on it immediately, and the pig even boasted beforehand that it would happen.

America has had the most porous border in the world for decades. If the Arabs hate the U.S. so much, why hasn't Hollywood (where the Jews make decadent movies, according to the Ayotollahs), been bombed? Just one simple dynamite-vest bombing? Or why hasn't NYC seen dynamite bombing? The diamond exchange...run by Jews. And why haven't we seen attacks SINCE Sept. 11? Bush has made the Mexican border even weaker and thousands per day are pouring across. The reason is, the attacks are being controlled by people like Hart. Hart said there would be a big attack if we didn't do certain things, then on Sept. 11 there was an attack just like he 'predicted', and the changes his CFR advocated were then put into place. And now he's making noises about another attack. And after the next attack you'll turn to him again and give up all your rights...STOP IT ALREADY! YOU'RE BEING PLAYED! YOU ARE TURNING TO THE TERRORISTS FOR PROTECTION FROM THE TERRORISTS!

And the FBI stopped the terrorist attacks of 9-11, in case you haven't been keeping up with the news. The field agents knew exactly what was going on and reported to their supervisors, who stopped all further investigations and re-assigned the agents who had uncovered the plot. Of course Hart and Bush want the FBI gone. It is TOO efficient. And they can't count on the good-principled people within the agency to go along with the destruction of American Sovereignty.

NOTHING has been done to secure America since Sept. 11. The only thing that happened is that airports are now under military control like in a banana republic, and local cops are getting riot gear. And troops have been sent out of country. We have been prepared for the next terrorist attack, where airports will be locked down, local cops will have enough new equipment to seal off roads, and Bush can turn to the U.N. for troops. That is ALL that has been done as a result of 911, and Hart is in the the thick of it and chuckling about what he's going to do next. Quit reading his press releases and start thinking about WHAT he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:55 PM

tch, tch, tch...

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:39 AM

http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm

Look at the above, Ebbie, since you seem to believe everything the politicians spew out. Look at the photo. GWBush, at a photo-op scripted stop ABOUT American industry, had to pose in front of phony boxes. All the cardboard cartons at the business where he spoke had been made in China, so they HUNG A SCREEN with cartons stamped 'Made in USA' behind him. A subsequent story revealed that the White House did indeed order this done, even after they initially denied it.

So, since you believe politicians, do you have a problem with this story? How do you rationalize the fact that GWBush lied to you. He knowingly stood in front of this bogus screen to give a pep talk on the non-existent American economy. Tissue of lies...illusion printed on a screen.

And if he would lie about something as petty and obvious as this, would he lie when the stakes were REALLY big? Like knowledge of Sept. 11? And is Hart any different? The global crime syndicate controlling both politicians is counting on your continued support, but you will die at their hands if you don't start thinking for yourself.

--------

(The piece below...Hart is advocating unified world government. Communism. And the only way to effectively rally people behind a political cause is to convince them they are in danger if they don't back the cause. If you read pieces like this twice...once thinking of Hart as a supporter of America, then again with Hart working against the interests of America...the second reading ALWAYS reveals the true motive. Hart can quote Jefferson all he wants and say he's working in America's interest, but the financial controls he advocates here = tyrannical world government and the return to the feudal society he claims to be working to prevent. Hart's Communistic tyranny is no more appealing than the Bush family's Fascistic tyranny. Just like Dems vs Reps, you're being offered a choice of two types of tyranny. And Hart knows this and is doing his bit as a team player):

Yale Bulletin and Calendar

December 13, 1999-January 17, 2000Volume 28,

Number 16

Gary Hart warns of impending
attack on U.S. mainland

HOW DID HE KNOW IN 2000..MECH'S EMPHASIS

Sometime in the next 25 years, the United States will be attacked, most likely by a small group of foreign terrorists using weapons of mass destruction, predicted former Colorado Senator Gary Hart in a speech at the Yale Center for International and Area Studies on Dec. 6.

The attack, he warned, could result in the loss of many American lives on their own soil and would be the first foreign attack of the U.S. homeland since the War of 1812, Hart said in his talk, the annual Coca-Cola World Fund at Yale Lecture.

This likelihood of a foreign attack is the consensus of a group he cochairs, the U.S. National Security Commission for the 21st Century, whose members were appointed by Secretary of Defense William Cohen to make recommendations on national security in the new millennium. The commission warned of such an attack in a recent government report.

In his lecture, titled "The Search for a New Definition of Security in a New Fragmented Century," Hart said that the danger of an attack on the U.S. homeland is one of a number of future threats to stability the world faces.

The United States, he urged, must lead a global initiative aimed at developing multinational agencies to regulate international commerce and ensure global peace. If it fails to take these measures, Hart said, the world may witness the re-emergence of neo-feudalism, a despotic form of rule akin to that common in the 17th century.

The increasingly global economy and revolutionary advances in technology, particularly information technology, have resulted in the "erosion" of the "nation-state" -- or the "shattering" of artificial national boundaries, Hart said. In Europe, for example, once divisive nations now share a unified currency and rely on such coalitions as the European Union and NATO for their economic and political security, he noted.

The "vacuum" created by the disintegration of the nation-state leaves the world in a precarious situation that demands a new infrastructure, Hart stated. In addition to the formation of an international coalition to regulate all aspects of the international financial market, Hart proposed the creation of a permanent multinational peace-making force that would be "rapidly deployed, highly maneuverable and specially trained in quick intervention and conflict suppression."

While he acknowledged that these new measures conflict with current concepts of national sovereignty, Hart pointed to the United Nations, NATO and the International Monetary Fund, which were created to deal with political and economic realities during the Cold War, as evidence of the important roles that longstanding global coalitions can play. However, those organizations, he said, are not sufficient to deal with current global realities.

"[They] were created to deal with the Cold War world, but that world is gone," Hart said.

An international peace-making force will be essential in the 21st century because the United States will be "increasingly reluctant to intervene unilaterally, as it did in Somalia or Haiti," Hart said. Likewise, the United States will not always be able to form international ad hoc coalitions, such as the one that dealt with the crisis in Kosovo, nor will it always have enough advance time to do so, Hart said.

To achieve stricter control of global financial markets, Hart proposed creating an international regulatory authority that would oversee trade, tariffs, finance and banks, and serve as a watchdog for "abuses, riggings, monopolies -- in short, human greed," he said. This new union would be in addition to the World Trade Organization, which cannot "stand there alone."

Under Hart's proposed new international infrastructure, the role of national governments would be to defend their own borders, ensure domestic prosperity, and raise and distribute revenues to meet local needs in the areas of education, health, safety, transportation and the environment.

The national government would also "establish and enforce standards for all social undertakings with sufficient guarantees that no student, no elderly person or worker is less well off than their fellow citizens throughout the nation," Hart proposed. "It would also ensure citizens of the great republic have equality of access to its protections and benefits."

An essential ingredient of this new framework, said Hart, would be "the notion of civic virtue," part of Thomas Jefferson's model for the new republic, which calls for all citizens to participate in the public life and in public affairs.

"The great danger in the now relentless corrosion of [national] power is the re-emergence of the neo-feudal era in which loyalties and allegiances are commanded by powerful individuals and private interests. ... It is this danger that causes me to urge you the reconsideration -- indeed the resurrection -- of the classic Republican ideal, a modern, radically democratic republic that restores the common good, the common wealth, and most of all, the deep and real sense of civic virtue," Hart told his audience.

This new form of governance, he added, would put "the political initiative back in the hands of citizens, where it belongs."

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 02:21 PM

Actually, spArrownoid, "World Government" is an inevitable stage of any intelligent race of beings on any one planet, given enough time, and that is not necessarily a bad thing...although it COULD be a very bad thing, depending entirely on the nature and the intentions of that world government, and how it is set up, and how it is maintained and who leads it.

Here's the normal progression of any intelligent species on a planet:

Families > extended family groups > tribes > tribal confederacies > cities > city-states > nation-states > conquering empires > alliances of free nations > cooperative federations of those alliances > a peaceful world federation of all nations, allowing trade, cultural exchange, travel, and mutual freedom to be exactly who you wish to be.

1. primitive stage ("caveman", hunter-gatherer)...people live in small family or tribal groups not too different from a band of gorillas or chimpanzees, and survive off the fruits of nature.

2. organized tribal stage: people form small local tribes and live either by hunting and gathering, or by simple agriculture, or by both. There's still plenty of land available, so tribal warfare may happen, but is probably fairly limited and not too destructive.

3. bigger tribes form: Things are getting more competitive now, and you will probably see the rise of fairly complex religious and political structures within tribes, as well as more organized forms of war. On the positive side, there will also be some trading between different tribes and there will be the developement of some new skills in manufacturing various items and improving agriculture.

4. city-states: The need for increased security, and the growing population will result in the formation of permanent centers which will become walled cities. This is good for the development of culture in all its complexity, bad in the sense that people get crowded together in a congested and increasingly unhealthy manner. The safest place to live (in case of attack) will be behind the city walls.

5. nation-states: Cities will govern large surrounding areas, and join with or conquer other cities, forming multi-city states supported by rural agriculture. Trade will flourish, as will ever larger and more destructive wars between the nation-states.

6. great empires: The most highly organized and militarily elite nation-states will conquer most of their near neighbours, forming great empires which jockey for power across whole continents (Egypt, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Rome, the Czars of Russia, the British Empire, Austria-Hungary, etc...) Those great empires will fight terrible wars, resulting in the deaths of millions.

7. movements of social enlightenment - Now much of the forgoing has been about raw power...the ability to conquer and dominate...based on a few very powerful people at the top manipulating masses of warriors, workers, and slaves...BUT...sooner or later as an intelligent race develops its philosophers and theologians will propose radical ideas, such as: EQUALITY, BROTHERHOOD, SHARE AND SHARE ALIKE, DEMOCRACY, etc... Those ideas will come forth at various times throughout the stages mentioned above, and they will become more and more widely understood and accepted as humanity advances and the lot of the common man improves...

8. And that will lead to the possibility of: the establishment of genuine human rights as a norm in society...the idea that everyone everywhere has the same right to a decent start in life, to freedom of speech, thought, and action, to equality before the law, to education, etc....

9. And that will lead to worldwide movements to secure those rights. One of those movements was launched in 1776 by American revolutionaries, and it profoundly affected Europe, and indirectly the whole world. Another such movement was launched in France shortly after, but it partially foundered on its own internal corruption and brutality, another such movement began in Russia in the late 1800's, culminated in the Communist revolution, and foundered on ITS own internal corruption (eventually), another such movement arose in Cuba and succeeded in 1959 but has been partially hamstrung ever since by being surrounded and half-starved by a hostile superpower. Another such movement made an attempt (a feeble one) to form the League of Nations after World War One. Another such movement made an attempt to form the United Nations (which has become merely a tool of very powerful multinational forces which are subverting it from within).

So, the problem isn't whether or not one shall have a world government. A world government is desirable providing it is a government in FAVOUR of human rights and equality and democracy.

Good governments protect and assist all the people while allowing them a maximum of freedom.

Bad governments protect a small elite at the top and actively harm the rest of the people, while practicing a maximum of control over the population and allowing them a minimum of freedom.

World government is inevitable, given any intelligent race of beings on one world, BUT...will it be an enlightened government based on freedom and equality of opportunity for all people? Or will it be an oppressive oligarchy of a few wealthy despots over a population of serfs?

That's the question to concern yourself with.

The US Constition and the individual nation-state (American or otherwise) are NOT the final word in the development of genuine democracy on this or any other planet. In fact, they are still at a somewhat primitive stage of human development...but showing good possibilities for further progress.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:14 PM

That's the way I see it, Little Hawk. Well expressed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:26 PM

The United States will NEVER forfiet it's autonomy to a "World Government." Even the Democrats aren't that dumb.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:23 PM

Sure. I'm in favor of world government if it's benign and people have rights. But that's not an alternative here. The world government being formed in front of our eyes is murderous and tyrannical.

In his 1996 book, 'The Grand Chessboard', Zbigniev Brezinski describes the world government which the CFR and Tri-Lateral Commission and U.N. are now implementing. He talks about the New World Order using 'maintainence wars' in the future:

"...The current Central Asian war is not a response to terrorism, nor is it a reaction to Islamic fundamentalism. It is in fact, in the words of one of the most powerful men on the planet, the beginning of a final conflict before total world domination by the United States leads to the dissolution of all national governments. This, says Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member and former Carter National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, will lead to nation states being incorporated into a new world order, controlled solely by economic interests as dictated by banks, corporations and ruling elites concerned with the maintenance (by manipulation and war) of their power. As a means of intimidation for the unenlightened reader who happens upon this frightening plan - the plan of the CFR - Brzezinski offers the alternative of a world in chaos unless the U.S. controls the planet by whatever means are necessary and likely to succeed...."

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/zbig.html

THIS IS THE PLAN WE ARE SEEING IMPLEMENTED NOW. These guys don't 'predict'...they present blueprints. And Brezinski talks about 'maintainance wars'...so WHY IS THAT? If they are BUILDING WARS INTO THE PLAN FOR THE FUTURE, then why abandon the crummy nationalism we have now? I mean, if there will be wars no matter what, and we're going to have to sacrifice all our rights in the transition to an elitist 'world government', I prefer nationalism with the U.S. Constitution in place.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:07 PM

As for the U.S. never forfeiting it's sovereignty, watch GWBush. Everything he does internationally empowers the U.N. Sure, he said we were about to descend on Iraq, but then he pulled back and let the U.N. 'inspectors' go in. That just legitimizes the murderous U.N. And it's all planned that way. Reagan pulled us out of UNESCO because it was a 'commie outfit' according to him, but Bush signed us back on...no debate and hardly any media mention. But if you look at the UNESCO charter and it's other statements, it provides penalties for those member countries that don't follow it's educational curricula. Actual economic penalties if a country doesn't teach that forced population reduction, etc., is good. And GWBush signed us on to that once again. He is giving away American sovereignty, just like his daddy and Clinton did.

The primary way the globalists are destroying sovereignty is through 'trade agreements'. NAFTA, GATT, etc. The globalists know the people around the world won't vote to give their jobs to other countries, so politicians are circumventing the democratic process and pushing trade agreements. No voting required. Polls show 70% of Europeans are against the European Union, but that doesn't stop the EU from moving forward. Americans are against NAFTA, but that didn't stop Reagan, Clingon and both Bushes from ramming it down our throats.

What steams me most is how the Bushes have created a chaotic world through their armaments selling. There used to be 7 nuclear powers, and Mutually Assured Destruction made some kind of terrible sense. But then the Bush family and the Baker family and others began selling nukes to North Korea and Iran and lots of others, so now there are 50+ nuclear powers, and a Bush is leading us to the brink of WW3. OF COURSE people are going to fill their pants when India and Pakistan or a couple of other countries exchange nukes. Then we'll turn to the pigs who CREATED THE SITUATION and beg to be rescued. The solution?...world government on the TERRORISTS terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:32 PM

Never is a helluva long time. I can hear some Roman citizen saying, "Rome will never etc., etc." And where is the Roman Empire now? Yet, the world goes on, which would probably have been inconceivable to many Romans.

Sense of history, man, sense of history.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Tyranny?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 06:42 PM

And now we get another State of the Union speech from the lead terrorist. In the last one he said something about 'evil-doers' wanting to take away our rights. That was right after the USA PATRIOT Act passed. Then, after the speech, we got the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform Bill and the Homeland Security Act. The PATRIOT Act attacks virtually all the Amendments to the Bill of Rights, particularly the First, Fourth and Fifth; the McCain-Feingold Bill attacks the First; the Homeland Security Act attacks the whole enchilada.

I mean, this is THROWING IT IN YOUR FACE SO OBVIOUSLY...the guy says the 'evil-doers' will take your rights, then HE takes your rights. Do y'all need a roadmap? You are being TAUNTED. And now he wants to pile your kids up in sacrificial bonfires in Iraq rather than ship them home for burial.

I don't think the world crime syndicate really cares HOW the Bush crime family destroys America, as long as U.N. troops have a REASON to move in and will be met with relatively little resistance. So...and this is where I move from the world of hard evidence to speculation...the Bushes are indulging in their satanic fetishes. The Bushes belong to Bohemian Grove, where an annual sacrifice to the ancient Babylonian owl god Moloch takes place, so tonight just picture GW in his hooded robe chanting to Satan while a kid is burned alive. Bohemian Grove ritual, northern California. I think the film is still posted on the net if any of you want me to dig it up.