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Led Zeppelin's sources

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Homeless 10 Jan 03 - 11:37 PM
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mousethief 11 Jan 03 - 12:49 AM
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Homeless 11 Jan 03 - 11:03 AM
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Bobert 11 Jan 03 - 12:37 PM
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Subject: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Homeless
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:37 PM

A while back I was talking with someone about musical tastes which led to a discussion on blues influences which led to me suggesting a project of making a list of Led Zeppelin songs and their roots.

As I see it there were some blues numbers, such as When the Levee Breaks, that Page and Plant stole directly (and I say stole since they didn't give any credit other than themselves), there were some they they borrowed heavily from or that played a definite influence, e.g. Gallow's Pole/Gallis Pole and then there were those where they ran a variation on a prior riff or lyric, such as Moby Dick from The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair.

What I'd like to see is a list of Zep songs and do one-to-one correlations from each song they wrote to the blues/gospel/folk song that may have been it's influence, wherever possible citing the original author or the artist that made it most known. I've got a list started, but would like to get others' input on songs/sources to find the ones that I've overlooked or have attributed incorrectly.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 11:47 PM

Bring It On Home was Sonny Boy Williamson, I don't believe they credited him.

I Believe In My Time of Dying was Blind Lemon Jefferson


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:49 AM

I remember seeing a FAQ on a LZ website a long time ago that answered this very question.

The other interesting LZ game is to list all the allusions to Tolkien in their songs.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:53 AM

When the Levee Breaks, that Page and Plant stole directly (and I say stole since they didn't give any credit other than themselves),

Well I don't know about the vinyl, but in my booklet that came with my CD of LZ4, "When the Levee Breaks" is credited to "Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, John Paul Jones, John Bonham & Memphis Minnie."

"Stole" is a very strong word when you're talking about blues, a genre in which an awful lot of borrowing and moving back and forth takes place. And in this case it's simply wrong.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:20 AM

Okay here you go.

From http://web.stargate.net/zeppelin/faq/faql_1.html#18:

Didn't Led Zeppelin copy (song title) from (blues artist)?

Yes, no, and maybe. Here's a partial list of covers, credited and otherwise, and sources. Thanks to _Wearing & Tearing_, Glen Cunliffe, Christopher Williams, _Proximity_, Hugh Jones, Bill Bratton, and Colin Harper for much of the info in this section.

"Train Kept A Rollin'" -- Written by Tiny Bradshaw, L. Mann, and H. Kay, first recorded by Bradshaw's Big Band in 1951. Rewritten as a rockabilly tune in 1956 and recorded by the Johnny Burnette Trio (whose guitarist, Paul Burlison, was an influence on Jeff Beck and inspired him to cover the tune with the Yardbirds). The Yardbirds recorded both the "original" tune and a rewritten version called "Stroll On" (the lyrics were modified to avoid copyright hassles) in Michaelangelo Antonioni's film _Blow Up_, which features the Beck/Page-era Yardbirds imitating the Who. The original version was often played live by Zeppelin, and is often mistakenly attributed to the Yardbirds, which is why it is included here.

"White Summer" -- Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" -- Anne Bredon (a/k/a Annie Briggs) (the Joan Baez version was the one this was based on).

"You Shook Me" -- Willie Dixon, first recorded by Muddy Waters.

"I Can't Quit You Baby" -- Willie Dixon.

"Communication Breakdown" -- Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."

"How Many More Times" -- Howlin Wolf's "How Many More Years," Albert King's "The Hunter," Zeppelin's version is lyrically related to a cover called "How Many More Times" by Gary Farr and the T-Bones (liner notes by Giorgio Gomelsky, one-time producer of The Yardbirds). Zeppelin's particular arrangement grew from the live jams on "Smokestack Lightning" that the Page-led Yardbirds used to do.

"Dazed And Confused" -- Jake Holmes, written and recorded as "Dazed & Confused." The Yardbirds covered it under the title "I'm Confused," with different lyrics. Page again changed the lyrics (which were originally about an acid trip) for the Zeppelin version. The version on the _Session Man_ album (on Archive) credited to the New Yardbirds is actually the Holmes original. Page: "I don't know about all that. I'd rather not get into it because I don't know all the circumstances. What's he got, the riff or whatever? Because Robert wrote some of the lyrics on that album. But he was only listening to...we extended it from the one that we were playing with the Yardbirds. I haven't heard Jake Holmes so I don't know what it's all about anyway. Usually my riffs are pretty damn original [laughs]. What can I say?"

"Black Mountain Side" -- traditional, Annie Briggs, Bert Jansch The main riff is almost identical to the riff Jansch uses in his song "BlackWater Side," though he cites Annie Briggs as an earlier source. Page: "I wasn't totally original on that riff. It had been done in folk clubs a lot. Annie Briggs was the first one that I heard do that riff. I was playing it as well, and then there was Bert Jansch's version." The DADGAD tuning used here and on "White Summer," "Kashmir," "Swan Song" (see the unreleased section), and "Midnight Moonlight" was supposedly invented by Davey Graham, though whether or not Page knew this is unclear.

"The Lemon Song" -- Chester Burnett (a/k/a Howlin Wolf) "Killing Floor," Robert Johnson ("squeeze my lemon" lyric). In some early concerts and on some pressings of _II_, the song was actually called "Killing Floor." ARC Music filed a suit against Zeppelin in the early 70's, which was settled out of court. Ironically, the "squeeze my lemon" lyric was lifted by Johnson as well--from Art McKay ("She Squeezed My Lemon"--1937).

"Moby Dick" -- Bobby Parker (music), Ginger Baker's "Toad" (drum solo). The song was originally entitled "The Girl I Love," which was written in 1929 by Sleepy John Estes and called "The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair." There are also some drum lines lifted intact from George Suranovich's drum solo with Arthur Lee's Love's song "Doggone."

"Whole Lotta Love" -- Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" (lyrics). Plant: "Page's riff was Page's riff. It was there before anything else. I just thought, 'well, what am I going to sing?' That was it, a nick. Now happily paid for. At the time, there was a lot of conversation about what to do. It was decided that it was so far away in time (it was in fact 7 years) and influence that...well, you only get caught when you're successful. That's the game." Willie Dixon sued Zeppelin (actually friends of his at the time) in 1985 when his daughter noticed the resemblance--though by this time, Zeppelin has sold the rights to their international catalog and knew _in advance_ of the suit, which was filed only _after_ the sale had been completed.

"Thank You" -- There is a striking chordal similarity to Traffic's "Dear Mr. Fantasy." There is an intriguing rumor that Page is actually the guitarist on the Traffic song, though no one involved has confirmed this.

"Bring It On Home" -- Written by Willie Dixon, though the Sonny Boy Williamson II version is the one which this bears a similarity to. The "Lemon Song" lawsuit also included language about this song.

"Traveling Riverside Blues" -- Johnny Winter's "Leavin' Blues" (music only), plus lyrical references to Robert Johnson, St. Louis Jimmy Oden, and Sleepy John Estes.

"Since I've Been Loving You" -- brief lyrical nod to Moby Grape's "Never."

"Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" -- intro lifted from "The Waggoner's Tale" by Bert Jansch.

"Gallows Pole" -- traditional, associated with Leadbelly. Page says that his version was based on a cover of the song by Fred Gerlach.

"Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" -- traditional, Bukka White (song entitled "Shake 'Em On Down"), also covered by Joe Lee Williams and Blind Lemon Jefferson.

"Black Dog" -- the vocal arrangement is very similar to Fleetwood Mac's "Oh Well."

"Rock And Roll" -- drawn from Little Richard's "Good Golly Miss Molly/Keep A Knockin'" (mostly the drum line).

"Stairway To Heaven" -- Possible (though unlikely) lift from "And She's Lonely" by The Chocolate Watch Band, which became the intro chords. There's really no way of knowing for sure. The solo chords are also similar to the chords of Dylan's (and Hendrix's) "All Along The Watchtower," though the chord progression is hardly uncommon and any direct influence is also unlikely. A more believable lift might be from Spirit's "Taurus," an instrumental from their _Time Circle_ album--the intro from "Stairway" is remarkably similar, and Page and Plant were certainly aware of the band.

"When The Levee Breaks" -- Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe McCoy.

_Physical Graffiti_ -- The album cover is identical in concept and very similar in design to the cover of the Jose Feliciano album _Compartments_, including the pull-out card and the "hidden" photos.

"Custard Pie" -- Sleepy John Estes did a song entitled "Drop Down Daddy" in 1935, which seems to be the earliest source for this material. Blind Boy Fuller recorded a song entitled "I Want Some Of Your Pie" in 1939. Sonny Terry covered it with the title "Custard Pie Blues." Big Joe Williams also covered it under the title "Drop Down Mama," and his lyrics are pretty much identical to Plant's. There is also some Bukka White material in the song.

"In My Time Of Dying" -- Traditional. First recorded by Blind Willie Johnson as "Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed," which is more like the Zeppelin version than the well-known Bob Dylan cover. Plant has cited Josh White's 1933 "Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed" as the source for Zeppelin's version. A much closer version appears on the self-titled album by the Canadian band Fear Itself, whose "In My Time OF Dying" is credited to Ellen McIlwaine, the band's lead singer and slide guitarist. Besides many musical and length similarities, the Fear Itself version ends with the line, "My dying...cough."

"Boogie With Stu" -- Ritchie Valens. Page: "The jam [with Ian Stewart] turned into 'Boogie With Stu,' which was obviously a variation on 'Ooh My Head' by the late Ritchie Valens, which itself was actually a variation of Little Richard's 'Ooh My Soul.' What we tried to do was give Ritchie's mother credit, because we heard she never received any royalties from any of her son's hits, and Robert did lean on that lyric a bit. So what happens? They tried to sue us for all of the song! We had to say 'bugger off.'" The Valens song bears a strong similarity to Memphis Minnie's "I Called You This Morning."

"Nobody's Fault But Mine" -- Blind Willie Johnson (lyrics). Plant: "First of all, it's public domain because he's been dead so long, and secondly it wasn't his song in the first place--nobody knows where it comes from."

"In The Evening" -- James Carr has a song called "In the Evening, When The Sun Goes Down." The music is not similar.

"We're Gonna Groove" -- Ben E. King, James Bethea.

"Darlene" -- One line from Don McLean's "American Pie."

So is this theivery? Yes, no and maybe. ;-) They _did_ steal a few things outright--like "Dazed And Confused" (stolen by the Yardbirds, actually)--but anyone who understands the blues tradition knows that this sort of "borrowing" goes on all the time. Willie Dixon may have been more savvy about copyrights than his counterparts, but he was no stranger to plagiarism himself. Many of the "songs" Dixon copyrighted could be considered public domain. And in the end, most of Zeppelin's "lifts" were eventually paid for.

Besides, as was the case with "Traveling Riverside Blues," the Zeppelin version often bore little (if any) resemblance to the original. Page: "...Robert was supposed to change the [lyrics], and he didn't always do that--which is what brought on most of our grief." [...] "So, anyway, if there is any plagiarism, just blame Robert! (laughs)"

--------

Alex


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Homeless
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:03 AM

Dang Mousethief, how'd you find this so fast? In the past couple months I've done searches twenty-eleven different ways and followed about half a bazillion links and never came across anything even half this comprehensive. I guess my work here is done. Thanx.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Roughyed
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM

I think Jimmy Page would have had a bit of difficulty hearing Anne Briggs do the riff to Blackwaterside because she did it unaccompanied (and brilliantly)


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:37 PM

Reminds my of Alan Lomax asking Muddy Waters about Muddy's sources on the "Plantation Recordings" CD.

Went something like this;

LOMAX: Did you write that song?

MUDDY: Yes, Sir, I did. I wrote it all by myself.

LOMAX: What kind of tuning is that anyway?

MUDDY: Span-cih

LOMAX: We're you learn that tuning?

MUDDY: I learnt it from Son House.

LOMAX: Did you hera Son House do that song?

MUDDY: Yes, sir, I did.

Like Alex says, in blues there are so many borrowed lines that just keep getting recycled into other folks songs. Many have no ownership.

Woke up this mornin'
Lookin' round for my shoes (X2)
Know by that, Lord
Got them walking blues

This verse was bouncing all around the blues scene in the 1920's, thought Robert Johnson is probably credited with it but Furray Lewis used it, Son House used it and probably a few others.

If the river was whiskey
I'd be a diving duck (X2)
I'd dive down to the bottom
and never come up

Furray Lewis, Muddy, etc

Engineer blew the whistle
Fireman rung the bell......
Credited to Son House but ya hear this line thrown into a few songs by contemporary blues artist...

Just a few examples. As a blues player, I have become less and less bogged down with personal credit and more appreciative of collective credit when it comes to these verses that were probably field hollers back on the plantations that were just passed from generation to generation.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Music entusiast
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:38 PM

Crap band anyway.
oh yeah and - immigrant song - little miss lover by Hedrix


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM

Actually Blackwaterside comes from Bert Jansch by way of Al Stewart. Al got dragged into court about it.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,happydog
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 01:21 AM

Jimmy Page did not play on Traffic's "Mr. Fantasy." That was definitely Dave Mason. This is one of those rumors like "Jimmy Page played the riff for 'All Day & All of the Night!'" Nope. Jimmy Page did a lot of session work but by the time "Dear Mr. Fantasy" came out, Jimmy Page had quit doing sessions and was deeply involved with the rapidly dissolving Yardbirds. He wouldn't have had the time. Traffic for their part had been rehearsing by themselves in a house in the English countryside, and would not at all have been interested in letting any session musicians sit in on their carefully created work.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Cllr at work
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:35 AM

At a Page and Plant gig watching Nigel Eaton (from Blowzabella) doing an eight minute hurdy gurdy solo at Wembley a few years ago was amazing. Led Zepp widely admit the influences of Folk and have branched back into it in the last few years.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Stour Delta
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:41 AM

Fascinating stuff "mousethief" thank you for sharing your vast knowledge.

When i used to listen to Led Zep back in the 70's i had no idea of their sources of inspiration, it is only since listening to and getting involved in "country blues" that one recognises the various themes and lines that can be found common to a whole host of pre & post war blues artists.

Among those already mentioned my favourite classic verses are:

I laid me down (last night) to take my rest x2
but you know my mind got to wonderin'
like the wild geese in the west.


Stole my best friends gal away from him x2
that fool got lucky 'n stolled her back again.

Wonderful!


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 12:21 PM

GUEST,Music entusiast

I'll assume that by 'Crap band anyway' you mean you don't care for them.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Roughyed
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:01 PM

I'd just like to correct my contribution above about Anne Briggs, she does play guitar on Blackwaterside because I heard it on Mike Hardings Radio 2 programme last night and checked that my CD was the same version. Having said that, I think Bert Jansch can still claim the considerable credit for the excellent DADGAD riff because her guitar is beautiful but minimalist (who needs guitar technique when you can sing like that anyway).


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: el ted
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:13 AM

What's all this then? Have they brought out a rival to HP?


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Justin
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:25 PM

Mousethief is surely right about "Babe I'm Gonna' Leave You". I can tell you a little more about it. Anne Bredon's college roommate later became an assistant to Joan Baez. One day she was singing "Babe..." and Baez said, "Who wrote that?" She ended up recording a beautiful version of the song.

About 20 years later, that same woman was playing her guitar and singing the song when her 14 year old son arrived home from school. Hearing the song, he said, "Hey, Ma, I didn't know you sing Led Zeppelin."

"This isn't a Led Zeppelin song," she told him, "Anne Bredon wrote this song. The kid laughed and went upstairs. He came back down with a Led Zeppelin album. Sure enough the song was on it (an awful version) with no writer's credit.

The woman called the record company. They told her that they had gotten it from the Joan Baez album and had thought it was traditional (the Baez album had no credit either, although Anne had received royalties). Anne ended up receiving more royalties from the Led Zeppelin album than she had ever gotten from the Joan Baez version.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 09:18 AM

I Can't Quit You Baby is a Willie Dixon song but the riff used is very similar to Buddy Guy's 'First Time I Met The Blues'.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 11:41 AM

It amazes me that Jimmy Page can rave on about how good Bert Jansch was, and yet wouldn't automatically credit him with creating "Black Moutain Side" ( the instrumental version ). It would have meant Bert getting much needed cash - and aristic credit - and wouldn't have reduced Pages milions by much.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,bjg8@pitt.edu
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:09 PM

WHat is music if it is not the bringing together of past and present. Copyright laws were not so stringent in the 70's, and by incorporating these musicians work, which they oviously had to have known they were doing, they have allowed their work to get more publicity, adn exposure had they not otherwise done so. Jimmy Page is a genius, Led Zep performed these song that were origionally done by one guy on a porch, adn made them orchestral. to call them theif and unoriogional is laughable


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,bjg8@pitt.edu
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:19 PM

You want to talk theives how bout the greatest cover badn of all time
The Grateful Dead, "Stagger Lee", "Casey Jones", "Dupree's..."."Samson and Delilah" More than traditional covers, they took from the origional artists, and tribute them all to Hunter/Garcia. I'm sure there are more examples too.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,satchel
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 09:35 PM

Lest I get too far involved in this, let me just say a few words here. The Grateful Dead covered hundreds of songs, some by the ubiquitous "Trad." like Jack-a-Roe, Peggy-O (Fenario), Sittin on Top of the World, We Bid You Goodnight, and the list goes on and on. All of these, and other like songs, were attributed to "Trad/arranged by the Grateful Dead, or Trad/arranged by Garcia." This includes Sampson and Delilah, as listed above.

There is another group of Grateful Dead songs that are based on traditional songs, such as Stagger Lee and Casey Jones. These songs, and the many others like them, take the story of the traditional version and have new sets of lyrics and often (but not always) different tunes.

The best two examples of this kind of song are the ones bjg8 has listed above. In the Grateful Dead's Stagger Lee, for example, the female character Delilah (different from Sampson's Delilah)has to kill Stagger Lee because Billy DeLyons is too afraid. In Casey Jones, the addition of the lady in red, and more importantly, the cocaine as the reason for the crash, as well as the entire tune, is much different from any of the traditional versions I have heard.

I exchanged emails with Robert Hunter some years ago and he claims that he wasn't thinking of the original songs when he wrote different versions of them for the Grateful Dead. Now, I may believe that he TRIED to remove the actual songs from his head before he wrote, but there's a better chance of George Bush being the education president than of Hunter succeeding completely. What I came away from the email correspondence with was that he used the stories of the traditional songs as inspiration to write different lyrics.

The Grateful Dead played hundreds of covers throughout their career, and those that made it onto albums were credited to either Trad. or their original composer("Turn on your Lovelight" by Bobby "Blue" Bland). Keep in mind here that the band was never averse to giving credit where due; a quick check of their recordings will confirm this.

The traditionally-inspired songs were listed as Hunter/Garcia, and frankly, they should have been, because these were new and different songs in their own right.

A more complicated case is Lady with a Fan/Terrapin Station. Is this a "stolen" song because it tells the story of the traditional "Lady of Carlisle"? I think not, because the overall composition is about much, much more.

The movement of the traditional into popular music only strengthens folk music. It brings a little musicology to the masses, so to speak. I think that we all need to be a little more cognizant of who and what we call thievery. Sometimes, it should be called "Tribute."


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: St Louis Blues
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:30 AM

Did anyone catch the jimmy page black crowes album? The black crowes rock when they rock. Jimmy's performance on that album steals the show. It is too bad the crows dont write songs as good as they play them. I bet they could cover any delta song and sound good. It is too bad they didnt learn from jimmy when they had the chance. Even if he "stole" from others, like so many other true blues artists, he makes listening to his music pure like every other "thief" that has inspired him. I dont give a shit who wrote what, I care about who jams the best. i dont go to concerts to see who wrote songs, I go to hear good bands play good songs, Isnt it what the delta is all about?


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:03 AM

Yeah, let's slam the boys of Led Zep.

No one ever seems to mention that the record company has copyright lawyers and researchers who clearly didn't give a damn.

Sad that some fellow musicians can't see the forest for the trees.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: ddw
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:54 PM

I'm not familiar with LZ's version of Travelin' Riverside, but if it bears any semblance to Robert Johnson's it should be noted in passing that RJ lifted the main guitar lick in that from a 1928 or '29 recording of Hambone Willie Newbern's Roll and Tumble. RJ also used the same basic lick for If I Had Possession Over Judgment Day.

A few days ago, after spending hours working out an arrangement of When The Levee Breaks from the Kansas Joe McCoy/Memphis Minnie version, I found out it was a "Led Zeppelin song" and their version is revered for a seminal drum line. Ruined my day! Then I listened to it and felt their version was so far from the original that it didn't make much difference.

cheeers,

david


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:25 PM

I've sometimes wondered whether the name is a sort of word play on Leidseplein, in Amsterdam.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:38 AM

Me too.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

Blues borrows from Blues, always has. Even before anyone thought of getting lawyers and "plagarists" involved. As far as Folk goes, the Zeppelin boys have paid their dues there as well...


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:14 AM

Dunno about that, Chris, Bob still owes me a couple of pints and at least a packet of fags from back in the late sixties...(!)


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Nick
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:39 AM

>>I've sometimes wondered whether the name is a sort of word play on Leidseplein, in Amsterdam.

Doubtful. Was it not supposed to have been coined by Keith Moon as his view as to how the band would go down?


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 08:40 AM

Are they are as good as Paul Newman's sauces?


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 12:07 PM

Yes, Nick that's true... and Pete, it just sounds funny calling Robert Plant Bob...


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM

Bob Plant. Hmmmmm.

Sounds like a manufacturing center for fishing floats. I guess they could have branched out into Led Zeppelin Weights.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Ross
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 08:40 AM

I think the Who were closing to splitting up at the time Led Zeppelin were formed; and some sort of almagamation was premised with the New Yardbirds - can't remember what though

I see no reference to Page's obsession with the occult - he lived in a house on Loch Ness which was previously occupied by the reputed most evil man who ever lived


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM

Something I saw earlier if you scroll up, you'll see someone mentioning the credits mentioned on LZ 4 for When the Levee Breaks according to what he sees on his "CD" version. Quite frankly, right off the top of my head, I'm not abolutely certain as to the accuracy of this particular example. BUT.......

I will say this much. If you do some research and look for the ORIGINAL VINYL RECORDS from the time periods when they were released (ie; first pressings), and compare them to what today's "CD's" show as far as copyright credits, I'm absolutely certain that you will see at least one or more differences on a number of their albums. This in itself should be evidence that over the years, they've surely had to answer for the discrepancies in their credits.

Always consider the source!!!!!...........


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 08:34 AM

Can't pretend that I knew him really, Chris, he just came into the pub every now and then and I'm sure called himself Bob. He was in a local band whose name I forget but they were pretty good. Then we didn't see him for a while until LZ broke onto the scene.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:48 AM

That band MIGHT have been the "Band of Joy".


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,motorbreth4@aol.com
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 09:53 AM

Zeps traveling riverside blues is a ripp of johnny winters' i'm yours and i'm hers , from his first album . listen to freinds .. then listen to csnys' deja vu -- the chords are lifted . the song structure of since ive been loving you is identical to " never " by moby grape - NOT just a brief lyrical nod . listen to the small faces version of you need love . steve marriot was quite ticked off . and check out " diary of a life " by the blues band chicken shack ... sounds way too much like heartbreaker to me ... like that nice acoustic stuff on houses of the holy . alot of it is bert janschs .... just to name a few of the ripp offs of the greatest cover band of all time .


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Cooklieless and don't know why
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 10:49 AM

Didn't they spend many a happy hour drunk/getting stoned with Roy Harper? Up in some secluded hills wasn't it?
Didn't they get a good 'steeping' in Celtic music from such sources?
Mebbe that's why I hear a certain (can't remember the title right now) Turlough O'Carolan tune in the 'Stairway to Heaven' melody?


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 12:11 PM

well.. when u r jetting all over the world screwing groupies and doing massive amounts of alcohol and drugs in between all the gigs you are playing, who can be bothered to write their own stuff?


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Rupert
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html gives an in depth account of zeppelin's appropriation of other tunes. They have been sued several times and new cds still do not give money and credit totherightful owners. They have sold about 200 million albums, that's probably that many quid, and been very tight about giving credit and cash whereit is due.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:55 PM

For an enchanting video of Jimmy Page getting back to the roots, click Here


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 09:54 PM

I think it is interesting to follow the trail to bands who then borrowed from Led Zeppelin. There a number of samples from Led Zeppelin songs on the Beastie Boys' album Licensed to Ill.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:28 AM

But I wrote this:

Woke up this mornin'
Checked my knob's still there!


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,nico
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 05:57 AM

Was it?


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 12:47 PM

"Didn't they spend many a happy hour drunk/getting stoned with Roy Harper? Up in some secluded hills wasn't it?"

Somewhere up Bron Yr Aur way *LOL*


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 02:30 PM

"At a Page and Plant gig watching Nigel Eaton (from Blowzabella) doing an eight minute hurdy gurdy solo at Wembley a few years ago was amazing"

Here's Robert Plant, Jimmy Page and Nigel "hurdy gurdy" Eaton
in Irvine, California

Gallows Pole


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST,Roberta Plant
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM

Now that is a seriously excellent video Mr. Mole.

Nigel Eaton outshines Robert a thousand fold there.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 06:05 PM

I was glad to see this today: Led Zeppelin cleared of plagiarism in Stairway case. Here's the article:

    Led Zeppelin did not plagiarise the opening chords of the rock epic Stairway to Heaven from the US band Spirit, a Los Angeles jury has found.
    It said the riff Led Zeppelin was accused of taking from Spirit's 1967 song Taurus "was not intrinsically similar" to Stairway's opening.
    But it said Led Zeppelin singer Robert plant had access to Taurus. Stairway to Heaven was released in 1971.
    The case was brought on behalf of Spirit's late guitarist, Randy Wolfe.
    During the trial, defence lawyers argued that the chord progression in question was very common and had been in use for more than 300 years.
    The prosecution had argued Led Zeppelin became familiar with Spirit's song after the two bands played on the same bill in Plant's hometown at a club in the English city of Birmingham in 1970.
    Spirit's bassist Mark Andes testified last week he met Plant at the show and played snooker with him afterward.
    Plant insisted he had no memory of that night, saying that in all the "hubbub and chaos" it would be hard to remember a one-off meeting 40 years ago.
    Plant partially attributed his lack of memory to a bad car crash on his way home from the club. Both he and his wife suffered head injuries in the accident, he told the court, after the windshield of his Jaguar was left "buried" in his face.
    The singer-songwriter also spoke at length about the creation of Stairway to Heaven.
    He reiterated the assertions made by his bandmates Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones that the song had begun at the country estate Headley Grange and not the Welsh cottage Bron-Yr-Aur, contradicting decades of Led Zeppelin mythology.


Led Zeppelin, like Cream and the Rolling Stones and others, brought new life to old blues. I'm sure that ownership of many Led Zeppelin songs could be contested. Whatever the law says, I think they did what was musically correct: to build on what's good and maybe make it better - or at least make it their own.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:19 PM

The court says they're innocent, then that makes it so.

A judge also ruled today that the police van driver who broke Freddy Gray's spine is innocent. That makes it so. Right?


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:02 PM

The Led Zeppelin verdict is in, and its an acquittal. A victory for common sense, to me. First, you can't copyright a part of chord progression — if you could, there would only be, like, 20 songs in the world.

More relevant, though, is what I advised the Led Zeppelin team to focus on: that the descending line underneath an arpeggiated A minor chord goes back way before Spirit's "Taurus" in 1968 — a string of 60s hits used it, including "Music To Watch Girls By" and "Chim Chimminey". The legal maneuver is not to try to prove that Stairway to Heaven is different from Spirit, but to show that both songs are borrowing from a musical motif that goes back at least to the time of Bach.

This is a switch from the way lawyers used to defend copyright claims. I worked for CBS when Billy Joel and Michael Jackson were sued, respectively, for "We Didn't Start the Fire" and "Billy Jean." In both cases, previously unknown songwriters who had never written anything before, claimed that these brilliant songwriters stole their songs. How likely is that? The defense tried to prove differences and won, but they were tough trials and there were many other cases defended with a similar strategy that lost (such as the My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine case). There are lots of songs that sound alike, but hey, there are only 12 notes.

Daniel Levitin


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:08 PM

Actually, Michael, yes. Both are innocent, as far as the law goes.

One can argue right and wrong forever, and never come up with a definitive answer that satisfies everyone.

With songs, it's a very difficult question, and there are no easy answers. Led Zeppelin made a lot of money, and a great proportion of it was due to that little riff at the beginning of "Stairway to Heaven." And that riff is simple enough that many people could have come up with it independently, or maybe from having heard it sometime way back in their lifetime. But it was Led Zeppelin who made that riff and that song what they became, and I don't believe anybody else deserves compensation for that.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM

Joe: This.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: John P
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:43 AM

michaelr, are you arguing that Led Zeppelin stole that chord progression from Spirit? You haven't actually said. Or are you arguing that Led Zeppelin being exonerated by the court is somehow akin to Nazism?

Either way, it seems daft. And offensive in the second case. As for the first, I wrote that chord pattern about three months after I learned to play the guitar. Who should I sue? Jerry Jeff Walker? Also, the thing that sets Stairway apart is what happens after the descending run, the rhythm of the G going back up to the Am. The Spirit song does something else entirely at that point, the point at which the myriad of other Am-with=descending-bass riffs differentiate themselves from each other.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM

No, and no.

We'll never know, but the similarity between "Taurus" and "Stairway" is close enough to make one wonder whether Zep was not at least subconsciously influenced by the former.

The fact that Randy Wolfe has been dead for decades and did not during his lifetime decide to sue Zep also makes one wonder.

What I'm saying is that just because a guy in a robe made a ruling, it does not necessarily mean that justice was served.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:33 AM

Likewise, just because a bunch of mercenary for hire lawyers and accounts actively seek similarities between songs
in order to convince otherwise laid back musicians, or their surviving estate's lawyers and accountants, that they have a good case to sue....


... does not necessarily mean that justice will be served....??? 🙄


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM

Whatever the truth, LedZep would have would have produced an infinitely finer listening experience.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:15 PM

If anybody got ripped off by the Stairway to Heaven riff it wasn't Randy California, it was Davy Graham ... listen to this clip from a 1959 BBC documentary ...just the very time when Page would have been absorbing all the guitar stuff he could.


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:16 PM

Bonz - gotta disagree due to me believing they are both truly excellent bands...

Go find Spirit's "Best of" and "Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus"

- I know you know exactly where to look - then sit back with your headphones on...😎


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Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:17 PM

ooops ... this clip


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