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BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?

GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 01:11 PM
catspaw49 11 Jan 03 - 01:35 PM
alanabit 11 Jan 03 - 01:51 PM
Big Tim 11 Jan 03 - 02:12 PM
Leadfingers 11 Jan 03 - 02:22 PM
mg 11 Jan 03 - 02:41 PM
Mudlark 11 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM
catspaw49 11 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 05:52 PM
catspaw49 11 Jan 03 - 06:32 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jan 03 - 07:01 PM
boglion 11 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 11 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Trevor 11 Jan 03 - 07:50 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 07:54 PM
Liz the Squeak 11 Jan 03 - 08:01 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 08:02 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 11 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM
nutty 11 Jan 03 - 08:29 PM
nutty 11 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM
mg 11 Jan 03 - 09:33 PM
Cluin 11 Jan 03 - 09:50 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 10:38 PM
pict 11 Jan 03 - 10:40 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 10:49 PM
Cluin 11 Jan 03 - 11:08 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 03 - 11:27 PM
Cluin 12 Jan 03 - 01:09 AM
Cluin 12 Jan 03 - 01:10 AM
alanabit 12 Jan 03 - 03:41 AM
leprechaun 12 Jan 03 - 04:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jan 03 - 07:06 AM
catspaw49 12 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM
Rapparee 12 Jan 03 - 07:46 AM
GUEST 12 Jan 03 - 09:51 AM
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harpgirl 12 Jan 03 - 10:42 AM
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GUEST 12 Jan 03 - 11:53 AM
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Stilly River Sage 12 Jan 03 - 12:36 PM
Rapparee 12 Jan 03 - 01:33 PM
katlaughing 12 Jan 03 - 06:04 PM
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Lonesome EJ 12 Jan 03 - 10:18 PM
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Rick Fielding 13 Jan 03 - 01:28 PM
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Kim C 13 Jan 03 - 01:51 PM
Bullfrog Jones 13 Jan 03 - 03:05 PM
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Subject: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:11 PM

I'm no paedophile, says Who star

courtesy of the bbc.

Rock legend Pete Townshend has admitted paying to view a child pornography site on the internet but said he did so "just to see what was there".
The star's admission comes after a UK newspaper report said a British musician was among those identified by a US police investigation for downloading child pornography from the internet.
The Who guitarist, speaking from his home in Richmond, London, strongly denied being a paedophile and said police were aware he had studied child pornography but only for research.
I am not a paedophile - I think paedophilia is appalling
Pete Townshend


A report in Saturday's Daily Mail said details of an internationally-famous musician had been passed to police investigating an American pay-per-view porn ring.
Campaign
In a statement Mr Townshend emphasised his "anger and vengeance towards the mentally ill people who find paedophilic pornography attractive".
The 57-year-old, who is married with children, said: "I am not a paedophile. I think paedophilia is appalling."
"To fight against paedophilia, you have to know what's out there," he said.
The guitarist believes he may have been abused himself as a child
"I have been involved in a campaign against paedophilia on the internet but it fizzled out."
The Daily Mail report said Scotland Yard officers were now investigating the celebrity - whom the paper did not name - and deciding whether to make an arrest.

But Mr Townshend said he had already been in contact with police.
"I've been in touch with Scotland Yard to tell them what I was doing.
Acting as 'vigilante'
"I have contacted them but no police officers have contacted me.
"I am waiting for the police to talk to me but they haven't been round."
He said he had highlighted his work on paedophilia on his website.
I was worried this might happen and I think this could be the most damaging thing to my career

Pete Townshend
And he said that through his research, he felt it was his duty to "act as a vigilante to help support organisations like the Internet Watch Foundation, the NSPCC and Scotland Yard".
"I think I may have been sexually abused as a child and I was doing research into it.
"I've been writing my life story and the research is for a book," he said.
No comment
But he added: "I was worried this might happen and I think this could be the most damaging thing to my career."
Adult porn had been a life-long interest, said Mr Townshend, a founder member of The Who.
He said he would be speaking to his lawyers, and added: "I want to clear my name."
Scotland Yard refused to comment.
A spokesman said: "We can't confirm that we are investigating a British rock star. We don't discuss individuals."
The Daily Mail said the name, credit card details and e-mail address of the unnamed star were contained in a list of 7,000 people passed to British police by the US Postal Service after the pay-per-view service was smashed.
Police operation
British police are conducting their largest-ever investigation, code-named Operation Ore, into online paedophilia and child pornography.
So far, about 1,300 people, including a judge, magistrates, dentists, hospital consultants and a deputy headmaster, have been arrested.
Some 50 police officers have also been arrested and eight of them charged with offences, including two officers involved in the police investigation into the murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman.
A spokesman for the National Criminal Intelligence Service said the files of anybody suspected of downloading pornographic material from the internet were being sent to relevant police forces around the country for further investigation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:35 PM

So what? Yet another Big Brother campaign. I'm not advocating child pornography, but the question of if he paid would enter into my thinking. I'm more bothered though that Joe Average can find kiddie porn with ease and often quite by accident...no money involved. So if you stumble onto any unsavory sight does this make you a whatever?

About two years back I was looking for a downloadable and printable calendar with angels on it for a friend. I came onto a site about angels and calendars that was nothing but young girls photographed in the nude. I stayed awhile and went to their links page and was amazed at the number of sites and many were completely free. Does this make me a pedophile? If some remnant of that is left somewhere in the guts of the computer am I guilty of something?

I like some old-fashioned porn but that stuff was unreal. The "Disclaimer" material was an interesting read as well. Kiddie porn has always been a tough one to break and far more prevalent than I would ever have believed. But even more, I worry about a big brother approach that spys on everything. I really don't know how you bust the one without stepping on the other in a rights violation. Much as I might abhor kiddie porn, the long term and more significant issue is civil rights.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 01:51 PM

Thanks Spaw for a brave and honest reply to yet another potentially horrible thread, posted by - surprise, surprise - an anonymous guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:12 PM

Here, here to the second and third posts. Thumbs down to the first. For chrissake GUEST can't you at least wait until some facts have emerged?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:22 PM

And of course it is posted anonymously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: mg
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:41 PM

I have no problem at all with the civil liberty of being able to see child abuse eroded. Hope it happens soon.    When I was at the University of Washington I got this spam for creating your own pornography out of a child's picture. I used to delete the ones about naked nurses etc. but I passed this on to the provost. Why is it legal? Why aren't sites shut down? Surely there must be laws. When I was a school counselor in Maine there was concern that in the next county over there was child pornography going on. The police were watching it. I just heard rumors, but I was very concerned about some of our very vulnerable (and stupid at times) teens and even children getting trapped in it... an d for the record I have no trouble at all with the death penalty for people who do awful things to children or other unwilling parties.

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Mudlark
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM

I agree, Mary. Much as I value "civil rights" I think the word "rights" has to be respected as well, and the sick people who perpetuate child pornography have invalidated their rights.

I finally instituted a spam filter program from my server because I was getting so many disgusting come-ons for such miserable stuff, including incest and worse. If someone solicited me in the street with this shit I'm sure they could be arrested...at least I HOPE they could be arrested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM

Unfortunately, it looks like people here who are polarized on this issue are already over-reacting to this news.

First, I couldn't believe how badly the quality of information was in the original post when I read it--it seemed very badly written, particularly the way it lacked in a lucid journalistic narrative of event. But before dismissing it completely as an internet hoax doing the rounds of the music forums, I had a look at the BBC News website it cited. Shockingly enough, the article here is cut and pasted verbatim, and the quality of reporting is as bad there as it looks here.

This reporter is leaping all over the map, there is no linear series of events one can follow, the contexts of remarks by Townsend seem non-existent, and the source of the information that leaked his name to the press isn't even mentioned. Now, if I am not mistaken, due process works about the same here in the US as it does in Britain, and investigations usually don't divulge the names of only one of what appears to be numerous suspects unless there is an intention to take the suspect into custody, and the suspect is still at large. The article is rife with rumours, innuendos, and sensationalist reports.

For instance, I went to the Pete Townsend website, where the article said Townsend claims to have evidence of his anti-child porn crusading, and there was no such thing there (that I could find anyway). Also, the quotes from Townsend say nothing about what this "crusade" against child porn and paedophilia was called, who it involved, etc. Then there is mention of Townsend's involvement in adult pornography. And his claim to have been abused as a child. Well, anyone who is familiar with this sort of case, knows that a history of abuse as a child, combined with an adult fascination (obsessive compulsion?) with pornography, are virtually always a part of the profile of the perpetrators in these cases.

So, while one never wants anyone, including celebrities, tried in the court of public opinion, much less by yellow journalists (and I note this is a large industry in Britain), the fact that this story is being reported by the BBC does, in fact, lend it some credibility to it. Especially in light of the broader investigation involving other notable British citizens who, for some unknown reason, aren't named in this article, despite the fact they are high visibility suspects too--including a judge, police officers involved in high visibility police investigations, and other community leaders.

To make it worse, Pete Townsend himself idiotically is talking to the press (himself? through an agent? solicitor?) giving statements that appear, at least on the surface, to be contradictory.

I think this may end up being a big story, but I can't say that the BBC News has distinguished itself in the reporting of it thus far. I note it is one the entertainment news page, and not the front page, as I would have expected a case of this potential magnitude (involving government and law enforcement officials especially).

As to the civil rights issue, when one commits a crime, is caught, prosecuted, found guilty, and sentenced to serve time, probation, do community service, or whatever, one often loses at least some civil rights as a result of the commission of the crime. If, in fact, a case is proven against any of these men, and they are found guilty, then they will almost certainly lose some civil rights as a result of it. Convicted criminals always do, and there is no conflict there, regardless of the potential sensationalism surrounding these sorts of crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM

Personally, I wasn't talking about the rights of convicted criminals. I'm more concerned with the rights of Joe Average, like all of us here. And the issue doesn't have to be kiddie porn, but what can the government check on and what do they deem to be illegal?

I am not defending pedophiles......or communists, fascists, or anything else.....Just the rights involved in holding a belief. Don't get confused because we think that pedophiles are the lowest scum....and they are....just remember to think what might be next in line for government spying.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:52 PM

I'd say the time for your concern about your civil rights online passed about 20 years ago. IMO, it is a pretty naive man who would believe that repeatedly visiting child porn sites (I don't think anyone who has gotten to them "accidentally" once or twice has anything to fear) doesn't carry the risk of being surveilled online by government authorities. Same for online prostitution, violent and sadistic pornography, and all of those murky areas where at least some of the people invovled are being victimised.

Don't want to risk the civil rights violations? Then don't go to the sites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 06:32 PM

Not going to disagree, but civil rights in this country are under their biggest attack in 50 years so I would not say that anyone is safe anymore. It all depends on what is read into something and by whom.....Did you catch the CNN....forget it........too long anyway.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM

I'm fully aware of the threats to civil liberties posed by government surveillance. But I'm not going to allow that awareness--and my political activism against it happening--to cloud my judgment about this sort of crime.

Now, rest assured I fully believe Pete Townsend to be innocent until proven guilty--and I do mean proven guilty legitimately. To use an example of what I mean by that, one need only look to the actions of outgoing Illinois Governor Ryan. Innocent people are wrongfully convicted of heinous crimes all the time. So I assure you catspaw, my standards are much higher than most peoples' who are just interested in incarcerating and/or torturing and killing any old black man, or pervert, or whatever for the crime, to make either themselves feel safe, or to satisfy the cry for blood from the victims' loved ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:01 PM

There's no need to jump in, in advance of a clearer indication of the facts.

What seems to have happened is that Pete Townshend's name was on a list of people who have given their credit card details to a porn site featuring child porn.

The list has been passed to the police in Britain by the authorities in the USA who had got hold of them and they are investigating. And someone seems to have leaked the story to the tabloid press, who have gone to town on it, but because of the laws haven't included the actual name.

Obviously the name would come out soon enough, especially in these Internet days, so Pete Townshend has pre-empted matters by going public with his version of the story.

Having his credit card details in the list could mean just that he'd typed in the credit card details as a way of having a look at the site, not necessarily that he'd been subscribing to it.
And he's said that is the case, and that he'd done so out of a wish to find out what was in the site, and with a view to attacking child pornography and child abuse.

I think it'd be quite wrong to leap to any judgements about this, because we just don't know the truth. There's nothing intrinsically implausible about that explanation. That doesn't mean it has to be true either. Anyone who gives their credit card details to anyone they don't trust is acting very stupidly, and by definition you can't trust the kind of people who'd be running a child porn site. But people do stupid things all the time, including good people.

But demonising Pete Townshend on the basis of what has come out so far would be quite wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: boglion
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM

Give him the benefit of the doubt - he's always been a straight-talking right-on bloke.

I hope he can clear his name.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM

"Having his credit card details in the list could mean just that he'd typed in the credit card details as a way of having a look at the site"

Ah McGrath. Since Townsend didn't come out and say the credit card was stolen, or my kids were doing it, I think this does cast some suspicion on him, especially because he admits to having gone to the site for a look-see. That is how the game works. You pays your money, you gets your peeps.

The fact is, he didn't just suddenly decide he would "come clean" for no reason. Somehow, he was tipped off that he is among those being investigated. So what does he do? Claims he was doing "research" for an anti-porn cause. Mmmhmmm. Pardon some of us for being somewhat skeptical here, McGrath.

And it isn't just the tabloids at this point. The BBC is reporting it. That does make the possibility that these are serious charges, a bit more likely I would think. Not that the BBC is omnipotent (as they proved with appalling bad journalistic standards exhibited in the writing and editing of the article). But they do carry a bit more credibility in society's eyes than the tabloids.

As I said, Townsend is most definitely innocent until proven guilty. But the fact that he himself tried to move pre-emptively in a damage control effort does raise clouds of suspicion, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM

I'm glad that something is being done about immoral online sex stuff... whatever kind of perversion it may be... I hope Pete is innocent, cause I've aways liked him... Pedophilia is completely disgusting... Yuck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:44 PM

Morality isn't so much the issue for me, as the harm done to victims of the crimes committed to create pornography and in conjunction with the commission of harmless, nor is it a victimless crime. Pornography of any kind isn't wrong because it's about sex, because that isn't what it's about. Adult erotica is about sex. Pornography is about victimisation. It is wrong because it victimises people who perform the sex acts, are beaten on film/video as part of it, who are working in conjunction with pornographers running prostitution rings, drug rings, etc.

I have absolutely no problem with adults performing and paying to see adult erotica on the web. None. But pornography I have a problem with, big time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,Trevor
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:50 PM

I have gone out of my way myself, to find child pornography on the 'net.

I am not a paedophile, but as a net professional, was curious to find out how easy it was to do.

It is, if you know what you are doing, and which buttons to press, very easy to find some sickening stuff.

I think that putting credit card details into such a site is a little stupid, but probably no more than that.

Trevor


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:54 PM

No more than that even if you are entering the credit card details again, and again, and again, until it finally flags your credit card for inclusion in an investigation by government authorities?

I could well be wrong, but I'm guessing that if Pete Townsend is on a list given to the British authorities by the US authorities, he likely typed in his credit card details more than once.

Some of you seem to be forgetting the possibility that this site was set up as a government sting operation too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:01 PM

"adults performing and paying to see adult erotica on the web. None. But pornography I have a problem with, big time."

Sorry, the difference is.........?????

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:02 PM

Victimisation of the participants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM

Sorry, I should be a bit more clear. By participants, I mean those who are being photographed or filmed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM

I have absolutely no problem with eradicating all of it. period. No need to split hairs on this one... The widespread proliferation of porn and smut is largely due to spiritual poverty... like the creep who loads my e-mail account with xxx... there is no excuse for this...


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: nutty
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:29 PM

Let's be clear on this ........ these men are not innocently downloading images of children.
They are downloading images of children, as young as six months old, being abused in everyway you care to imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: nutty
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM

Pressed the button before i'd finished.

And the most worrying aspect of the whole thing is how many teachers, social workers, policemen and the like are involved in this activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: mg
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:33 PM

I volunteer at a camp for girls who have been sexually abused. Five year olds. It is impossible to comprehend. And this whole sick priest thing. And I am sure the more repressive you get, like the Catholic church I was raised in, the more stunted and perveted the sex stuff is. But total no holds barred is no good either. Perhaps there is a balance place. And all this diet stuff I have been reading aludes to the importance of the right fats in developing normal sexual adults...Dr. Mary Enig I think refers to it but doesn't get too specific...I wonder if there is this sort of connection.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 09:50 PM

Oh for Christ's sake! Now in addition to the "experts" asserting that being a sexually-abused child leads to perpetuating child-abuse when you grow older, people had better keep quiet about not having a proper diet as they were growing up.

Otherwise they risk being judged in the kangaroo court of the media and all the righteously indignant out there who give anybody who's written a book on the subject time on a daytime talk show.

Can we all just agree that making child pornography is a crime against the helpless and use the law to go after those who produce it? Without applying all sorts of blanket censorship to the rest of the population who are innocent. Or are you afraid people are going to catch it be seeing one of the images by accident?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:38 PM

Cluin, I haven't seen anyone here say that being sexually abused as a child automatically leads to one becoming an abuser as an adult. But the profile of convicted child abusers does include them having been abused themselves as children.

Men don't just suddenly start having urges to have sex with children out of the blue, and then act on those urges innocently. Nor do they wake up one day as adults, and decide to go looking online for pictures of men having sex with children out of the blue. These acts are learned behavior. The men who engage in this behavior have created a culture for such men, who live these secret lives everywhere in the world. Because of the internet, there has been an explosion in the amount of it available, and it has become a huge conduit for the racketeering and other crimes associated with pornography, prostitution, drugs, gambling, the whole shooting match. And that is true of all kinds of pornography, not just child pornography.

As long as the problems keep worsening, and that pornography culture keeps growing and feeding off the internet, I'm afraid we'll be seeing more and more of these busts/dragnets pulling in people we really aren't going to want to admit to ourselves are engaged in this sort of activity. These men are everywhere in our midst.

Like I said, I have no problem with adult erotica, and I'm very open minded about sexual morality. But only when it is actually related to sex, not victimisation, brutalization, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: pict
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:40 PM

The problem is when an accusation is made,or suspicion is raised,of involvement in viewing or perpetrating paedophilic acts,it forever leaves a question mark over the accused.Once accused the doubt will remain in at least some peoples minds even if the accused is exonerated of any wrong doing,for a supposedly intelligent man Townshend has been very foolish and possibly worse,he really had no choice in todays climate but to pre-empt any possible allegations.

There are certainly malevolent people on the internet who are involved with all sorts of nefarious activities,but I am sure that they belong to a very small minority and I don't think that the general population should have to sacrifice their civil liberties because of the actual or (more importantly) alleged wrong doing of an aberrant minority.I'd prefer that the government let the general public have the benefit of the doubt,the alternative to the benefit of the doubt could lead the way to a society that none of us would be happy with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 10:49 PM

Can someone explain how Pete Townsend's civil liberties have been violated, when he has admitted paying for child pornography with his own credit card?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:08 PM

I don't understand your point, Guest.

You say that being sexually abused as a child doesn't lead to becoming an abuser yourself (yes, I completely agree). But then you say all child abusers were abused as children. ??? So the abuse was a trigger setting off some latent aberrent abuser gene or something?

Then you say it's a learned behaviour. Learned from whom?... the abuser who initiated them into the wonderful world of child abuse? Or was it leaned from seeing an example of kiddy porn somewhere? So, like I said, you would consider it some sort of contagion, either from having experienced it or seeing a picture of it?

Either way, you can bet the mob-rule public will grab a hold of the wrong end of the stick the "profilers" and "experts" hand them and start looking for likely abusers "in our midst".

In which case, people who were abused as children better not tell anybody about it or else be looked on with suspicion as some sort of child abuse "time bomb" looking for its opportunity to go off later. Same goes for those people who might have seen a picture of a child naked at some time... bear-skin rug or baby-bath photos, anyone? Where is the line drawn?

And if you think I'm being facetious, think about how there are a lot of people willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater (so to speak), to be on the safe side where our children's safety is concerned. Catspaw expressed some very valid concerns above. People are ready to throw out all hard-won freedoms and civil rights when issues like this come up.

Look at how some people in this thread have already judged the Townshend incident as "suspicious" without knowing all the facts. Guilt by suspicion. He'll never live it down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 11:27 PM

I think you are pretty damn over the top here Cluin. You are probably right, Pete Townsend likely will never live this down. Who's fault are you suggesting that is?

As to the contagion thing you are ranting on about, I have no clue what you are rambling on about, as you aren't making rational sense. Do you have some theory on what causes men to become pedophiles? Are you trying to tell us that child abusers haven't been abused as children? Just because some people have been abused as children, doesn't mean they all grow up and become child abusers, yet you are ranting as if that is what has been claimed here. No such claims are being made.

Now then, if men are repeatedly going to child pornography sites online, are you suggesting the government has no right to keep them under surveillance? If so, I would disagree completely. Child pornography is illegal for a reason. It is a real crime, with real victims.

I would feel much more sympathetic to your "cause" of civil liberties, if you were also screaming about the injustices of the US government illegally detaining Arab and Muslim men who are in this country legally and complying with the law now and then, rather than just coming in here to defend an aging pop star who has publicly admitted he has visited child porn sites online and paid for it with his personal credit card.

Again I ask, what civil rights of Pete Townsend's are being violated here? The answer is none. He has admitted to having gotten caught using his credit card to view child porn. Now, you can accept his reasons at face value if you wish. But to suggest that anyone who chooses to remain skeptical of the reasons he gave for paying to view child porn on the internet, must mean that they have utter disregard for civil rights and liberties, doesn't make any rational sense. You are reacting in an over-emotional way to this. There is no logic to the argument you present. I said he is definitely innocent until proven guilty. Let us all remember, no charges have been filed against him at this time. All we are talking about is a rumor of an investigation, and a man's confession to paying to view child porn online. But that is still a confession of wrongdoing, and we all know it, even though no charges have been filed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 01:09 AM

No, GUEST, I don't have a theory on what causes men (occurs with women too, rarely) to become pedophiles. I never think about it very much, you may be surprised to learn. But you see, GUEST, I hate to see the victimization and shame of the (much more common than I would have thought) abused continue when it is put forth by so-called profiles and studies that all child-abusers were abused as children, so people can think,"There IS a link, you know. Well, Tom says he was abused. Better not let him near the kids." It wasn't said here, true, but it is a common observation whenever the topic is brought up. Same goes for religious repression or dietary reasons or literature or music or whatever else. I don't have a theory. But some people think they do.

And I'm so sorry, GUEST, for not including all the people who suffer injustice in the world in my rant when I "just came in here". I'm sorry, GUEST, for suggesting that people might be quick to judge someone guilty of pedophilia as soon as the suggestion is made (look at the title of this thread), even though you, GUEST, have already made it clear you think Townshend's given reason isn't good enough and an "aging pop star" is fair game for you to suggest he is an habitual user of child pornography because he got caught once.

I'm also sorry, GUEST, that I posted anything to this stupid fucking thread at all.

(For the record, I think child pornography is disgusting and wrong and any other negative adjective you want to apply to it. Sorry for being over the top with my emotionalism.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 01:10 AM

missing comma: should be "women too, rarely".

Makes a BIG difference.

comma added - joe clone


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 03:41 AM

Ditto to everything Cluin wrote above. Our anonymous guest has not initiated a debate about child pornography but about PETE TOWNSEND AND CHILD PORNOGRAPHY. It is a spiteful attack on a man by a faceless coward. I wonder how often lynch mob leaders gave their names?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: leprechaun
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 04:02 AM

Good point Cluin. The thread title was definely not written by someone who respects the concept of "innocent until proven guilty."


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 07:06 AM

Lynch mobs and witch hunts are very scary things. They happen so easily, and they develop a momentum of their own. A couple of years ago in a tabloid fuelled spasm of that kind of thing in Wales, a paediatrician had to leave home to escape attacks purely because that prefix "paed" caused a misunderstanding on the part of the mob.

There's a certain mentality that seems to wish to leap into action in advance of knowing the facts, and in total disregard of "due process". You see it when some person accused of some offence is being taken for trial or whatever, and the crowd gathers and shouts and tries to overturn the van and all that kind of stuff. What's going on in the minds of the people like that? Getting some kind out of kick out of a situation where there is a socially accepted licence to mob?

And that old saw "No smoke without fire" - which is not actually true, as anyone who has ever walked out on a frosty morning knows when they breathe out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM

And now we come back full circle. Thanks to alanabit, Cluin, and pict....You made a far better acase than I and thanks to Mac for completing the circle.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 07:46 AM

I have long wondered about the neutrality of the press. What point is served, other than fueling greed by catering to sensationalism, by printing this story? If there is guilt, let it be brought out in court.

As a public librarian who spent better than ten years as a system administrator; as someone who has designed, procured, installed and maintained networks and Internet access for public libraries, I have been more-or-less in the middle of the target in the debate on Internet filtering. Because of this, I have *deliberately* visisted pornographic websites on work time -- that is, the taxpayers paid my salary and for the hookup and equipment for me to do this. At no time, however, did I use any funds, either my own or the taxpayers', to enter these sites -- I only investigated the "free stuff."

I have seen sites which target such topics as necrophilia, masturbation, beastiality, pedophilia, sadism, masochism, copraphilia, and the rest of the long, sad litany. And these sites were usually broken down into what purported to be "gay" and "straight."

I noticed two things right off: first, no one's hair was ever disarranged and, second, that no one looked like they were having fun.

The result of this research was that I have no objections, either personally or professionally, to Internet filtering in the public library *as long as it is the decision of the local governing body and not imposed on the library from somewhere else*. I discovered that Internet filters aren't all that effective, but that some are better than others. And I reported these findings at two seperate library conferences.

Studies that demonstrate that abused children tend to grow up into abusers are useful, but we have to remember that a "tendency" or "likelihood" is not a certainty. There are many cases in history of abused children growing up to become absolutely wonderful adults (go look them up yourself if you are interested). I think that sometimes we put too little emphasis on what people can and do make of themselves.

Enough of this. The abuse of children or any helpless/unwilling creature is degrading of everyone's humanity. I don't like the death penalty, but I truly feel that there are some things which deserve the final "casting out" from society.

I will post no more on this subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:51 AM

As a civil libertarian, I am opposed to the use of internet filters in schools and libraries.

As to "why the press published this story" first, any investigation of any sort of wrongdoing by public officials and law enforcement, as the story claims is the case here, the press has a duty to cover. Second, it appears that Pete Townsend went to the press himself, not the other way around. You don't get to have it both ways.

I too have said that Pete Townsend deserves to be treated fairly. But he has already received some privleged treatment because of his status as a pop star--he gained access to the press to "tell his side of the story" before he was officially linked to this investigation, and before any charges have even been made. I doubt that courtesy would have been given to any old suspect. Finally, as I've said repeatedly, Pete Townsend is innocent until proven guilty. However, he has already sought out the media to tell them he paid to view child pornography. Is what he did a crime? I certainly don't know, as I don't know what the investigation suspects him of doing, and nor does anyone but those close to investigation, and because I am not familiar with the current laws in Britain regarding the viewing of child pornography online (the laws are changing pretty quickly from country to country right now.

Now then, none of what I have said above is indicative of a lynch mob mentality. I haven't seen anyone here say we just thrown Pete Townsend to the lions. So I maintain that there is a fairly hysterical group of overly sensitive guys here about the subject, Pete Townsend, or both. It is ridiculous, considering the nature of Mudcat, to assume that this news wouldn't have been posted here and disgusted. But for some odd reason there is a handful of guys looking to shout down what has been an informed, thoughtful discussion.

None of us here has any control over the risks Mr. Townsend chose to take with his reputation and his career when he: 1) paid to view child pornography online with his personal credit card, and 2) chose to tell the media about it. He also had a choice to remain silent about this, until such time as he was named officially or not. If he is innocent of any crime or wrongdoing, why move pre-emptively, as some have suggested he did, and go public with this admission, when there is a very good chance he would never be named publicly?   There are things to be skeptical and cynical about here. Because one is skeptical and cynical about this story doesn't mean that a lynch mob mentality has taken root, or that people suggest civil rights be thrown out the window in order to better catch pedophiles.

Very little internet traffic is actually involved in child pornography and pedophilia, as some others have mentioned. However, the crimes involved with this activity continue to expand, and are now believed to involve the traffic of children in prostitution rings around the globe, illegal drug trade, assault, battery, slavery, racketeering, and all sorts of pretty awful stuff. It might not be a huge problem on the internet, but it certainly diminishes the seriousness of the actual crimes and victimisation of children involved to rise up and say in response to something like this "but what about us Joe Average Good Guy Porn consumers? what about OUR civil rights?"

Excuse me, but we aren't talking about Joe Average guys when we are talking about child pornography.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:00 AM

Cluin, as to the subject being introduced of being abused as a child, that was brought up by Pete Townsend in his remarks to the press, when he said he was abused as a child. So I am at a loss to understand why you thought discussing that was beyond the pale of reasonableness in this case.

In fact, I'm beginning to wonder how many of you actually read the article, and can distinguish what Townsend actually said, from your own internal dialogue about the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:41 AM

Townsend has now issued a written statement to the media, in follow-up to the first meeting he had with them at this home.

From CNN:

After giving an interview to members of the British press at his home in Richmond, south west London, on Saturday, The Who legend later issued the following statement to the media: (Full story)

"I am not a paedophile. I have never entered chat rooms on the Internet to converse with children.

"I have, to the contrary, been shocked, angry and vocal (especially on my website) about the explosion of advertised paedophilic images on the Internet."

It went on: "I have been writing my childhood autobiography for the past seven years. I believe I was sexually abused between the age of five and six and a half when in the care of my maternal grandmother who was mentally ill at the time.

"I cannot remember clearly what happened, but my creative work tends to throw up nasty shadows -- particularly in 'Tommy''

"Some of the things I have seen on the Internet have informed my book which I hope will be published later this year, and which will make clear to the public that if I have any compulsions in this area, they are to face what is happening to young children in the world today and to try to deal openly with my anger and vengeance towards the mentally ill people who find paedophilic pornography attractive.

"I predicted many years ago that what has become the Internet would be used to subvert, pervert and destroy the lives of decent people. I have felt for a long time that it is part of my duty, knowing what I know, to act as a vigilante to help support organisations like the Internet Watch Foundation, the NSPCC (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) and Scotland Yard to build up a powerful and well-informed voice to speak loudly about the millions of dollars being made by American banks and credit card companies for the pornography industry.

"That industry deliberately blurs what is legal and what is illegal, and different countries have different laws and moral values about this.

"I do not. I do not want child pornography to be available on the Internet anywhere at any time."

It concluded: "On one occasion I used a credit card to enter a site advertising child porn. I did this purely to see what was there.

"I spoke informally to a friend who was a lawyer and reported what I'd seen.

"I have enclosed my website article about my friend Jenny who commit (sic) suicide because of sexual abuse she suffered as (a) child.

"I hope you will be able to see that I am sincerely disturbed by the sexual abuse of children, and I am very active trying to help individuals who have suffered, and to prevent further abuse."


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: harpgirl
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:42 AM

...my dear GUEST. This is a music forum. I find your one person crusade to utilize this forum as your own personal platform to harangue the masses with your arrogant superiority on matters of morality to be a decidedly anti-social activity. Your motives for these repeated tirades are highly suspect.

Moreover, I greatly resent having to wade through your tirades to enjoy some musical discusion day after day, and hour after hour. If you had any intention of behaving in a truly pro-social manner, you would long ago have given up your anonymity and declared yourself as a member of this online community.

Your views on war, sexism, racism, economics, pornography and all the many seven sins of humanity do not qualify you to go on a crusade to raise the consciouness of individuals utilizing this forum.

The mere fact that you would take this job upon yourself belies your psychopathy to me. I for one, will not participate in your debates. I may however, try to hound you away as I did last summer! I dislike you intensely, but as I said before, engaging with psychopaths always robs one of something: be it time, money, dignity, or whatever you can manage to steal from true humanity!    hg


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:50 AM

That's right harpgirl, this is a music forum, where many subjects get discussed. Pete Townsend is a hugely popular musician. Deal with it.

From BBC News today:

Sunday, 12 January, 2003, 13:15 GMT
Music figures back Townshend

Music industry figures have backed Who star Pete Townshend, after he admitted looking at child porn on the internet.
Mr Townshend said he had paid to see child pornography on the internet, but insisted he had done so for research and was emphatically not a paedophile.

DJ Paul Gambaccini said Townshend should be given credit for his frank admission - and said paedophilia was a subject that had concerned the star for many years.

But an internet watchdog said Townshend was "incredibly foolhardy, naive and misguided" to enter the website.

"You have to consider his background," Mr Gambaccini told BBC London.

"He himself says that he was abused as a child and indeed he went on the record about this in Tommy with the song Uncle Ernie...

"In other words, this is a subject which has concerned him for many, many years, and I therefore do trust him implicitly."

'Research purposes'


Music writer Rick Sky agreed, telling BBC Radio 5: "He's a very, very creative man who wears his heart on his sleeve.

"His argument is that he's been doing research on paedophilia and child pornography on the internet, and I do tend to believe him.

"He's written about this on his website and he's preparing a book about his own life which, he says, included severe child abuse as well.

"And he plays children's charities. It seems very unbelievable that he'd be involved in something like this."

Press agent Chris Hutchins, a neighbour and long-time friend of Townshend, said: "Pete is no paedophile, there's no question about that.

"Pete absolutely lives by his honesty. He's in a programme of recovery where to tell a lie could lead him back to a drink or drug problem.

"If Pete says that it was for his book, the book I know he's writing - and I know he was dealing with the painful issue of child abuse inflicted on him when he was a child - then that's true."

Mr Townshend said his web research was partly so he could act as a "vigilante" for bodies such as the Internet Watch Foundation, which aims to eliminate child porn from the net.

'Misguided and illegal'

But the IWF criticised his actions and said his explanation was no excuse.

Mark Stephens, a lawyer and IWF founder, said: "It is wrong-headed, misguided and illegal to look at or download or even to pay to download paedophiliac material and if you do so, you are likely to go to prison.

"If he was abused as a child, one feels sorry for him but it doesn't present anyone with an excuse for doing something illegal."

The star's admission came after the Daily Mail said a British musician was among those identified by a US police investigation for downloading child porn.

The Who guitarist, speaking from his home in Richmond, London, strongly denied being a paedophile and said police were aware he had studied child pornography.

The 57-year-old, who is married with children, said he was researching his possible abuse as a child for his autobiography.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

"The problem is when an accusation is made,or suspicion is raised,of involvement in viewing or perpetrating paedophilic acts,it forever leaves a question mark over the accused."

Townsend wasn't accused. He made a public statement of his own volition "to clear his name", yet he hadn't been officially accused of anything. He chose to respond to rumors circulating in the tabloids. He could just have easily handled this very differently, through a solicitor if necessary. It is pretty apparent that this is a man who is very confused, feels very threatened, and doesn't seem to be receiving very good counsel, if any, from those closest to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:53 AM

This will be the last article on the subject from me. Again, from the BBC today, I have excerpted the following article:

Sunday, 12 January, 2003, 15:44 GMT
Townshend 'wrong' over child porn

Who star Pete Townshend was "misguided at best" to view child porn on the internet, charities have said - although rock industry figures have supported him.
Mr Townshend admitted he had paid to see a child porn website, but insisted he had done so for research and was emphatically not a paedophile.

But the Internet Watch Foundation - whose aim is to eliminate child porn on the net - said Townshend was "incredibly foolhardy, naive and misguided" to enter such a website.

"It is wrong-headed, misguided and illegal to look at, or download, or even to pay to download paedophiliac material and if you do so, you are likely to go to prison," said vice chairman Mark Stephens.

He said Mr Townshend had admitted a criminal offence, and if he was prosecuted it would be for the court to decide his motives in doing so.

"What he has done is incredible naivety at best."

He said there were many authorities trying to combat porn on the internet, so individuals did not have to do "something illegal". to do so

"There are proper places to go, including the police. It is not something for people to undertake themselves," he said.

Children's charity NCH also warned people not to carry out their own research into child pornography on the internet.

No English court had ever accepted research as an excuse for possessing pornographic images, it pointed out.

[I have snipped the remainder of the article, as it is a verbatim reproduction of the above cited BBC article, to avoid unnecessary duplication]


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:58 AM

It seems to me that an important distinction is being made in today's news reports. Townsend is claiming to be acting as a vigilante, and has cited the Internet Watch Foundation as one of the organizations whose efforts he is working on behalf of as a vigilante. They have now publicly denounced him.

Not surprisingly, just as we have seen here, his closest colleagues in the music industry are attempting to circle the wagons on his behalf. But the denunciation by the organization he claimed to be working on behalf of is pretty damning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 12:36 PM

Same stuff is happening in the U.S. also. Paul Rubens was arrested in Florida for an act of "indecency" in an adult club several years ago. It ruined his career as far as his PeeWee Herman persona was concerned, though we would have continued to support him on that program. His was an adult mistake, not involving children. The latest charges against several men in Hollywood sound exactly like a witch hunt, with Rubens' name attached to a kid porn investigation just to get publicity, though it will probably be dismissed soon.

It's human nature to be attracted to these issues. I think the argument of "spiritual poverty" is a crock--people are interested in sex, religion or no. I agree with Spaw in his estimation of the "old fashioned" porn when compared to child porn. How do we raise our children to have what we consider a "healty" interest in sex? By making sure we don't telegraph that it ALL is nasty, and by being frank with them when they get up the nerve to ask questions. By being proactive and talking about these things ahead of time, and not being scandalized at how much they already know. The context is all around us. Use it now and hope for the best later.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 01:33 PM

I said that I would post no more to this, but I must clarify one thing: I have no where stated that I was in favor of Internet filters. I said that I was in favor of the decision to filter being made at the local level, NOT by outside parties -- such as the American Library Association, the ACLU, the Republican Party, the Democrats, the Tories, the Liberals, the Communists, the Socialist, the Libertarians, or the Women's Christian Temperance Union! Local authority, not something imposed upon from "above."

And folks, that's it. GUEST strikes me as an arrogant, opinionated, knee-jerk, and I won't deal with such an unthinking (and obviously uncomprehending) person again. Rant on, GUEST, I ain't a-gonna respond to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:04 PM

Well said, harpgirl! This GUEST needs a reminder:

Subject: Please Don't Copy-Paste Long Non-Music Articles
From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 27 Jun 02 - 01:05 PM

Please remember that Mudcat is a Music Forum. We welcome discussion of all topics, but we give special emphasis to music.
If you wish to discuss other topics, you are welcome to post your own opinions. Please do not copy-paste the entire texts of lengthy non-music articles that are available elsewhere on the Internet - just post a link and summarize the article in your own words.


And, no, GUEST, the thread really is NOT about Townshend's music. Links and summaries would have sufficed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:14 PM

sound: under rug swept


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:18 PM

Down with the bed clothes
Up with the night shirt
Fiddle about, fiddle about
...from Tommy

Makes you wonder, don't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: okthen
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:47 PM

LEJ, that quote from a who song refers to the abuse done to him as a child. I would like to say I think Pete Townsend naive but innocent and wish him the best of luck extricating himself from this mess.He's no saint but he's nearer than the sinner he's being made out to be.
Bottom line, I think he's one of the "good guys" and we don't have enough of them to squander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,(different one)
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:20 PM

The part in all this that just doesn't wash with me is WHY he paid to view what's there?

Isn't it enough to already KNOW or have a pretty good idea of what's already there? I just have a hard time with the "research" thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:28 PM

The "research" thing is obviously the only defense he can muster at the moment.

Do you remember a few months ago, when Wynona Ryder said that her "Director" had TOLD her to shoplift at the store as part of "researching a film role"?

Poor Peter. I doubt very much if he's a dangerous sort, and it's simply all over for him no matter what happens now.

Oddly enough, saw "Peewee's big adventure" a few days ago...and what an inventive little git he was.....but in his case it's REALLY all over. Same with Jeffrey Jones, a really funny quirky actor, who was in "Ed Wood", the film I started a thread about yesterday. Not sure what to think.

Rick


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM

Hi okthen. My guess is that Pete is not a child porn connoisseur. I did find the Tommy lyric ironic in this instance. You imply the lines refer to Townsend's abuse as a child? Where did this information come from?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:51 PM

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. But here's what I wonder: Pete Townshend is famous. At one point in history, the Who were in the public eye All the Time.

If he were truly a pedophile, don't you reckon we'd have known that by now? Seems like a pretty hard secret to keep for almost 40 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:05 PM

According to the 8.00 P.M. (London) news, Pete has now been arrested.

BJ


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:10 PM

I heard earlier there had been a plan for him to meet the police at his home, with his solicitor, this afternoon. Presumably, this is what resulted. I am guessing he surrendered himself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:15 PM

From BBC News:

Rock star Pete Townshend has been arrested by police following a search of his home after he admitted viewing images of child pornography on the internet.
He has been detained on suspicion of possessing and making indecent images of children and of incitement to distribute such images, said Scotland Yard.

The guitarist is in custody at a south-west London Police station.

The guitarist has admitted he gave his credit card details to see a child porn website, but insisted he had done so for research and was not a paedophile.

Police earlier spent over four hours searching the 57-year-old's home in Richmond, south-west London.

Consent

They arrived at the house at 1500 GMT and were accompanied by four detectives who interviewed him.

The operation was agreed by mutual consent said Mr Townshend's solicitor.

A Scotland Yard spokeswoman outside Mr Townshend's home said: "There will be a thorough and detailed search of the premises. It will take as long as necessary."

She said a search warrant had been obtained and computer forensics officers were among those attending.

Mr Townshend was driven away by police at about 1930 GMT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:17 PM

A couple of stories here:

Drudge Report

I guess my question now is ... what about people who really ARE doing research? At a business luncheon once, I met a woman who worked for US Customs, and internet child porn was one of the areas in which she worked. I mean, you can't bring the bad guys down until you know who they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:50 PM

I wouldn't say his arrest is necessarily the kiss of death for his career. Woody Allen has, despite marrying the child in question. Michael Jackson has. Paula Poundstone, while not enjoying her previous level of fame, has a full year of concerts booked this year.

I'd say, it all depends on whether he is actually charged, and what he might be charged with.

BTW, according to a Department of Justice study released Sept 10, 2001 (it was buried under the news of 9/11) on child sex abuse crimes, debunked several myths about it. There is an article on it at the CNN archive here:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/09/10/arena.child.abuse.otsc/

I can't vouch for the the validity of the study one way or the other. But one of the three main myths about child sex abuse is who does the abusing. The article states:

"...many think strangers are the main perpetrators in sexual abuse cases. The study revealed that less than 4 percent of all sexual assaults are committed by strangers. So, for the most part, the sex offenders are people the children know. Also, the study found most of the abusers are middle-aged married men with children of their own. "

Of course, it doesn't reveal what percentage qualifies as "most" either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:00 PM

Remember, if you look at something on the internet, you have created an image of it. That's how the technology works, and that's how the law works

Strikes me there must be thousands of terrified men around trying to remember whether sometime they might have clicked in a credit card number to get a look at some dodgy sounding porn site, out of curiosity, because that apparently is all it would have taken to get on that list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:15 PM

Poor Pete's in a world of hurt, seemingly of his own design. Sorry for him - but he's way over the line on this one (it seems). This ain't a case of accidentally clicking on an inappropriate image. From a news wire:

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "He has been arrested under the Protection of Children Act 1978 on suspicion of possessing indecent images of children, suspicion of making indecent images of children and on suspicion of incitement to distribute indecent images of children."


If they are correct, Pete's silly stories about research are not going to hold water. He probably should have kept his mouth shut.

I am sorry for him, but not sympathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:24 PM

Townsend didn't write "Fiddle About". John Entwistle did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 05:34 PM

The point is, as I understand it, if someone views an image on a pC, that means that they possess a copy of that image, and that they have created that image.

I think that, in doing whatever was necessary to see that image - entering a creditcard number, or maybe authorising a charge on that credit card - they would also be open to the charge of "incitement to distribute".

So that is four very serious charges possibly arising from what could have been a single foolish action.

No need to rush to judgement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 06:27 PM

The website in question (where Townsend says he used his credit card) is apparently a gateway to a child porn network of over 5,000 sites where child pornagraphy can be swapped on line. I'm guessing that is the reason for the distribution count.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: pict
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:48 AM

For those of you who are interested (and have the adobe acrobat reader program)this is something that Townshend wrote on the subject in January 2002.

http://www.thewho.org/020116adifferentbomb.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:08 AM

That is worth reading. And it reads as convincing - especially if that January 2002 date is real.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: okthen
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:36 AM

I echo that McGrath, I was impressed and went to the website to email a short message of support,(unsolicited).
I hope he comes out of this O.K.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:42 AM

A worthwhile article, and if the Jan 2002 date is falsified someone is a damned quick typist! To put something like that together since the news started, and keep a distinct prose style is quite an achievement.
I prefer to think it's genuine.
I also note that 7 out of 8 posts within a 3 hour time frame on the 12th were from 'Guest'. Should I even be posting to this thread ?

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,ivan
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:09 AM

I understand from reports in the news that there are also judges, magistrates, & police officers under enquiry in this affair. People who we rely on to take care of society, to protect it. Are we going to have their names published? I hope & trust that Townshend is telling the truth. From Tommy I would think that he is. I admire him. That boy could rock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:18 AM

New Harry Potter thread started with a 'Filk' of The Who
Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:27 PM

The only thing Townsend's article convinces me of, is that Townsend, intentionally or unintentionally, makes few to any moral distinctions about surfing the net to view pornography. Sometimes he distinguishes between types of pornography (hard/soft, adult/child), sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he distinguishes between porn consumers and what he terms "vigilantes".   As I read through it, he seems to be making a case for these self-appointed "vigilantes" to visit pornography websites (which is the defense he is claiming in his own case), despite the illegality of those acts under current UK law.

I'm with his friend Elton John on this (who was asked about it at the American Music Awards). Based on the story Townsend has given to the press, the circumstances don't look good for Pete right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM

Whether circumstances look good or bad isn't the issue. Well, it is for Pete Towshend, but not for the rest of us.

In the same way, whether he's been wise or been foolish, or been legal or illegal in what he's done, those aren't the central issue.

On the basis of that article, assuming it hasn't been faked up retrospectively - and I think that is extremely unlikely - Pete Townshend comes across to me as OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:07 PM

He doesn't come across looking OK to me. He looks like someone who has admitted he is guilty of visiting child pornography sites.

There is nothing in the article that is consistent with the stories (some of which are conflicting) he has now given to the press. No mention of him "researching" child pornography for his memoirs. Nothing of the sort is mentioned, so I have no idea why people think this exonerates him for what he did. Townsend broke the law, and should receive the same treatment others received who have been convicted in the Operation Ore sting, who committed comparable crimes.

I don't think he should receive special treatment, just because he is a popular celebrity. Many others (1,300 so far) have been exposed, and of those who are public officials, their names have been made public as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:46 PM

Our generally unnamed Turnip Guest is at least using a name today! Thank you JR.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Socorro
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:01 PM

In response to the person who considers Townsend "one of the good guys" - he may well be, in some things. I can't see that that has any relevance to the charges.
I think Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's words apply:

"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:02 PM

Bottomline: Mr. Pete Townsend squandered any respect he'd earned as a writer/performer of his times by "conciously & willingly" participating in the rank violation of the sanctity of the child. Case Closed!
Children are sacred and *No One* has *Any* right to contribute to their exploitation : neither for getting one's rocks off nor for filthy lucre.
Townsend's apparent degeneracy have reached critical mass and have now crossed the line and he has no one to blame but himself.
Till this news I readily derided the rank stupidity of the Who's master Bass guitarist ,John Entwhistle ,whom sudenly died of a heart attack just as the Who were about to embark on yet another
"unasked for" world tour. Final determination of cause of Entwhistle's herat attack; the dumb bastard decided he wanted one more hit of coke.
what a collasally moronoic waste. Now comes "ye aging pufter" Townsend indulging his willy "most priviledged " where his indulgences in "rough boys" just wasn't enough.
Trash is what trash does.
Time for Uncle Petey to get "professional treatment" and be done with it. Spare me the defense of an artist who has obviously demonstrated how sick he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

Did you read that article of his, Taliesn, written, it would appear, a year before all this blew up? I think it suggests a rather different picture from that presented there.

"Obviously" just means "I have a strong opinion about this" - it just says something about the person using it. But because of the structure of lanuage it seems to be saying something about the person or situation under consideration.

Let's wait and see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:12 PM

would you all be saying the same if it were michael jackson or eminem instead?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: nutty
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:04 PM

Listening to a programme on the TV certain facts came to light ......

This investigation , into a single site identified approx 35,000 hits.

Of those 35,000 hits, 7,ooo approx were from people living in the British Isles.

As a result of the information passed to the police by the FBI, 40+ children have been identified and removed to places of safety.

Investigations are still ongoing into the activities of a high court judge , two former cabinet ministers and a deputy head teacher as well as numerous other "professional".

The police are prioritising the investigation by dealing first with those people who may pose a threat to children.

The FBI have revealed that their present investigation into another site is likely to produce similar results.


Whether or not Pete Townsend is guilty or just misguided, he had to be aware that he was breaking the law and that there were consequences to his actions. Every person entering those sites , for whatever reason, is responsible (in part) for a child being abused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,Chris, Baton Rouge
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:21 PM

IN DEFENCE OF THE BBC

The original post to this thread did not pick up the formatting in the source BBC page. The strange chronology & disjointed prose resulted from the clips under embedded photos being inserted into the adjacent text, out of context and repetitive. The similarly incongruent individual words like "Campaign" are the paragraph headings.

So I wonder at the veracity of the later post from Guest....."I had a look at the BBC News website it cited. Shockingly enough, the article here is cut and pasted verbatim, and the quality of reporting is as bad there as it looks here".....It just ain't so folks.

The BBC is usually a center of excellence, and is often the only source of reliable news in some parts of the world; we can't say the same for Radio Free Europe & our other mouthpieces.

So, BBC tried & convicted by the ill-informed. Townshend also ???

Chris, Baton Rouge


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:12 AM

Mr Townshend stated he was researching his childhood in case he had been molested or something ...

I should have thought that of all the things that happen one when a child, this is something one would not need to research much less forget.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: BusbitterfraeScotland
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:50 AM

If Townsend was reasearching a book about Child molesters and the like then why did he do it in secret and not have witnesses to say that's what he was doing.
As far as I'm konw that's Pete Townsend is a peodophile, until he can prove otherwise.
You might as well say these other peodphilles were also resarching a book.
Does he think that we're daft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: okthen
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:02 AM

I'm sitting on my own at this computer typing a reply to mudcat, I'm not doing this in secret, I just don't have an audience.
As for Townsend proving otherwise, I thought it was "presumed innocent untill proven guilty" let's keep an open mind and see what the authorities decide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:40 AM

In the article some here are claiming fully exonerates Townsend, he claims he did not come forward when he found child pornography "by accident" because of the climate surrounding the prosecution of (I am assuming) Gary Glitter, who Townsend said he worked with on some shows, and because his attorney advised him not to notify the authorities about the website.

Which means he admitted to "finding" child pornography more than once, which conflicts with his current claims. The other thing I find wholly bizarre about this case, is Townsend more or less demanding that the police come take his computer, in order to exonerate him.

Interesting twist, that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:48 AM

(quote)
"would you all be saying the same if it were michael jackson or eminem instead? "

Absolutely and have done so.
Bottmline: Children "are" sacred. Case Closed.
Everything else is just rationaliztions and moral ambivalence just to see how far one's "indulgences" can be made somehow socially "palatable"; in a word "marketed".
How else could there "right to assembly" ever have been pushed far enough for a group as N.A.M.B.L.A. to ever be formed.

Degenrate is what degenerate does and does "nothing" to the advancement of cultural experience.
This is an isue even the so-called "Libertarians" can't deend with a straight face if a straight concience may be idiolocally incorrect.
Just calling a spade a spade


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:27 PM

From my count, Townsend has claimed to have viewed child pornography online numerous times, not just the one time he is currently claiming.

In the article cited above, he says he "accidently" stumbled across child pornography while looking for something else. In his news accounts (both his written statement to the press, and his press conference) he says that he first came across child pornography while surfing the web with his 16 year old son. He also has said in the past week, that he only went to the site he was presumably arrested for entering his credit card number into once, "for research" for his supposed autobiography he has been working on for seven years.

That tallies up to at least three times, in three different circumstances, two of which were not the offense he is purportedly being investigated for as part of Operation Ore.

At some point, one must say to ones' self, perhaps this is a bit too many "innocent coincidences" to be credible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 May 03 - 02:17 PM

Looks like the police and prosecutors bought Pete's story. He's been cleared. I hope it's true, and I'm happy for him if it is.

I suspect if he was guilty of it there'd be more then this one instance, and more evidence, so sounds like Pete's OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: alanabit
Date: 07 May 03 - 03:43 PM

I want it to be true and I believe that it is true. When you bear in mind his brutal emotional honesty over the years, it is hard to distrust the guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 03 - 03:50 PM

yeah well he is also famous and wealthy....so chances are he would have been cleared anyways...I still think he's a pervert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 May 03 - 07:54 PM

I just don;t think ya get to be 50 something and turn into a pervert, and I don;t think ya live to be 50 something and not have some sort of trail that prosecutors could find if you did have those "odd" habits. So hopefully Pete is OK, and was telling the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: alanabit
Date: 08 May 03 - 03:48 AM

And I still think you are a mean spirited, spiteful coward anonymous "guest".
Well said Jed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST,mink
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:23 AM

Irrespective of whether he was visiting (and contributing money to) a child porn site for research - the truth is that he was looking at(and contributing money to) children being exploited. As a parent, I find that hard to justify. "Writing a book" is not some heroic crusade whose end justifies any means. The fact that he paid to view means that he cannot argue that his actions did no additional harm.
If I go and mug an old lady then can I use "research" as a defence? I doubt it.
He is clearly guilty of the offence, by his own admission. The important question is whether he is a paedophile & whether he will continue to feed that cess-pit. At the very least he is now a very suspect character - and rightly entered on the sex offenders list.
Generous spirited as we try to be - "innocent until proven guilty" is a risky approach to take with paedophilia.
Paedophilia is a horrible demon to wrestle with - and if Townsend does have that tendency then I wish him all the luck in the worl in conquering it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 03 - 08:13 AM

He has admitted to the charges, as you point out guest mink, which means he is guilty, no? Obviously, his legal counsel was wise to advise him to admit to it, as he was caught red handed. Combine that with his money and celebrity, and it is easy to see that he has gotten away with something pretty bad, IMO.

It was a tremendous disappointment to see these charges against him be brought, as a decades long fan of the Who. But I'm a fan of Townsend no more. I could care less about what people do with their sex lives. But child porn is whole different thing altogether, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:21 AM

Guest:
He has admitted to accessing the site, and that is what has caused his name to be placed on a list of 'sex offenders' (Read the whole story linked at 7 May 2:17) but his only accepted fault was accessing that list.
He claims he was using it for research to be able to speak out against child pornography, and I, for one, believe him.
If merely accessing the site is sufficient to be considered a sex offender, presumably everyone who spoke against him should be on the same list, unless they are going on hearsay about the contents of the site.
By the same criterion, the BBFC (British Board of Film Censors) sit through films to decide whether they are suited to the public. The fact that they list films as unsuitable does not prevent those who seriously wish to view them from gaining access to them, nor does it prevent studies being made of them. It merely reduces 'public access' to the films.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 03 - 06:57 AM

Combine that with his money and celebrity, and it is easy to see that he has gotten away with something pretty bad, IMO.

I'm sure Garry Glitter and Jonathan King (and possibly others) would tell you that is not the case. I'm pretty well convinced that if Townsend had not been telling the truth, the police would have evidence to support that and would have prosecuted.

formatting fixed by Mudelf


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 03 - 08:31 AM

Townsend told the truth. He paid to view child pornography. Research, my ass.

Paying to view child pornography is not the moral equivalent of paying to view adult pornography. Not by a long shot. Does it make him a sex offender? Certainly not in the sense of luring and engaging children in sex acts. Is there a correlation between those who pay to view child pornography and those who commit sexual crimes against children? Yes.

It matters not one iota to me what Townsend claims his motives were. They weren't legitimate. He is not above the law. And the circumstances surrounding his case, including all the celebrity testimonials from friends and co-workers he has had his publicity machine churn out, hasn't impressed me a bit.

I wouldn't let the guy anywhere near MY kids, that is for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 03 - 08:38 AM

BTW, even if Townsend's offense was more stupidity than true interest in child pornography, he still should be held every bit as accountable as anyone else for his mistakes. Being a well-liked celebrity is not an exemption from accountability for one's despicable actions and poor decisions.

He paid to put himself on the sex offenders list when he typed in his credit card number, as far as I'm concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 May 03 - 04:18 PM

Child molestation is a touchy subject.

(Woody Allen - long before the Mia Farrowing he got)


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 09:29 AM

I wouldn't consider Woody Allen in the same league as someone financially supporting the criminals guilty of exploiting children in the porn industry, though, as Townsend has done.

At the time, Woody Allen's decision to be sexually involved with a minor to whom his de facto emotional relationship with was step-father, looked very bad. People seem to have accepted what he did though, because he married her. But I'm still suspicious that he married her to keep his movie career from being destroyed, and that it is really a marriage of convenience for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:26 AM

Actually Woody Allen said it in a film (probably pre-Mia) as a joke.

His relationship with his (now) wife would appear from the documentary that she is quite assertive and is providing something he certainly needs which has very little to do with sex, or if it does t'aint none of our business. I don't doubt that she is gaining a lot of what she wants from the relationship. On the basis of what I saw, it was anything but unseemly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 11:07 AM

I haven't seen the documentary you mention Mr. Red. But I would say that the circumstances surrounding their becoming a couple were quite unseemly, and nearly cost him his career.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pete Townshend a Child Fondler?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 May 03 - 10:29 AM

I didn't follow the details of the court case - his very public take was "extremely cynical". I do remember the Andre Previn severence and that was a public affair too, and Mia didn't dress herself in integrity then. What did the courts decide on Woody Allen.


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