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BS: Somebody Blew Up America
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Subject: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: KarlMarx Date: 12 Jan 03 - 01:51 PM Here is a poem, by New Jersey's Poet Laureate - Amiri Baraka - who is an African-American, and who is hated by John Ashcroft, et al. Good reason to like him (Amiri Baraka, that is) . . . Somebody Blew Up America by AMIRI BARAKA Somebody Blew Up America They say its some terrorist, some barbaric A Rab, in Afghanistan It wasn't our American terrorists It wasn't the Klan or the Skin heads Or the them that blows up nigger Churches, or reincarnates us on Death Row It wasn't Trent Lott Or David Duke or Giuliani Or Schundler, Helms retiring It wasn't The gonorrhea in costume The white sheet diseases That have murdered black people Terrorized reason and sanity Most of humanity, as they pleases They say (who say?) Who do the saying Who is them paying Who tell the lies Who in disguise Who had the slaves Who got the bux out the Bucks Who got fat from plantations Who genocided Indians Tried to waste the Black nation Who live on Wall Street The first plantation Who cut your nuts off Who rape your ma Who lynched your pa Who got the tar, who got the feathers Who had the match, who set the fires Who killed and hired Who say they God & still be the Devil Who the biggest only Who the most goodest Who do Jesus resemble Who created everything Who the smartest Who the greatest Who the richest Who say you ugly and they the goodlookingest Who define art Who define science Who made the bombs Who made the guns Who bought the slaves, who sold them Who called you them names Who say Dahmer wasn't insane Who? Who? Who? Who stole Puerto Rico Who stole the Indies, the Philipines, Manhattan Australia & The Hebrides Who forced opium on the Chinese Who own them buildings Who got the money Who think you funny Who locked you up Who own the papers Who owned the slave ship Who run the army Who the fake president Who the ruler Who the banker Who? Who? Who? Who own the mine Who twist your mind Who got bread Who need peace Who you think need war Who own the oil Who do no toil Who own the soil Who is not a nigger Who is so great ain't nobody bigger Who own this city Who own the air Who own the water Who own your crib Who rob and steal and cheat and murder and make lies the truth Who call you uncouth Who live in the biggest house Who do the biggest crime Who go on vacation anytime Who killed the most niggers Who killed the most Jews Who killed the most Italians Who killed the most Irish Who killed the most Africans Who killed the most Japanese Who killed the most Latinos Who? Who? Who? Who own the ocean Who own the airplanes Who own the malls Who own television Who own radio Who own what ain't even known to be owned Who own the owners that ain't the real owners Who own the suburbs Who suck the cities Who make the laws Who made Bush president Who believe the confederate flag need to be flying Who talk about democracy and be lying Who the Beast in Revelations Who 666 Who know who decide Jesus get crucified Who the Devil on the real side Who got rich from Armenian genocide Who the biggest terrorist Who change the bible Who killed the most people Who do the most evil Who don't worry about survival Who have the colonies Who stole the most land Who rule the world Who say they good but only do evil Who the biggest executioner Who? Who? Who? Who own the oil Who want more oil Who told you what you think that later you find out a lie Who? Who? Who? Who found Bin Laden, maybe they Satan Who pay the CIA, Who knew the bomb was gonna blow Who know why the terrorists Learned to fly in Florida, San Diego Who know why Five Israelis was filming the explosion And cracking they sides at the notion Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere Who make the credit cards Who get the biggest tax cut Who walked out of the Conference Against Racism Who killed Malcolm, Kennedy & his Brother Who killed Dr King, Who would want such a thing? Are they linked to the murder of Lincoln? Who invaded Grenada Who made money from apartheid Who keep the Irish a colony Who overthrow Chile and Nicaragua later Who killed David Sibeko, Chris Hani, the same ones who killed Biko, Cabral, Neruda, Allende, Che Guevara, Sandino, Who killed Kabila, the ones who wasted Lumumba, Mondlane, Betty Shabazz, Die, Princess Di, Ralph Featherstone, Little Bobby Who locked up Mandela, Dhoruba, Geronimo, Assata, Mumia, Garvey, Dashiell Hammett, Alphaeus Hutton Who killed Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, Medgar Evers, Mikey Smith, Walter Rodney, Was it the ones who tried to poison Fidel Who tried to keep the Vietnamese Oppressed Who put a price on Lenin's head Who put the Jews in ovens, and who helped them do it Who said "America First" and ok'd the yellow stars Who killed Rosa Luxembourg, Liebneckt Who murdered the Rosenbergs And all the good people iced, tortured, assassinated, vanished Who got rich from Algeria, Libya, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Kuwait, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Who cut off peoples hands in the Congo Who invented Aids Who put the germs In the Indians' blankets Who thought up "The Trail of Tears" Who blew up the Maine & started the Spanish American War Who got Sharon back in Power Who backed Batista, Hitler, Bilbo, Chiang kai Chek Who decided Affirmative Action had to go Reconstruction, The New Deal, The New Frontier, The Great Society, Who do Tom Ass Clarence Work for Who doo doo come out the Colon's mouth Who know what kind of Skeeza is a Condoleeza Who pay Connelly to be a wooden negro Who give Genius Awards to Homo Locus Subsidere Who overthrew Nkrumah, Bishop, Who poison Robeson, who try to put DuBois in Jail Who frame Rap Jamil al Amin, Who frame the Rosenbergs, Garvey, The Scottsboro Boys, The Hollywood Ten Who set the Reichstag Fire Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day Why did Sharon stay away? Who? Who? Who? Explosion of Owl the newspaper say The devil face cd be seen Who make money from war Who make dough from fear and lies Who want the world like it is Who want the world to be ruled by imperialism and national oppression and terror violence, and hunger and poverty. Who is the ruler of Hell? Who is the most powerful Who you know ever Seen God? But everybody seen The Devil Like an Owl exploding In your life in your brain in your self Like an Owl who know the devil All night, all day if you listen, Like an Owl Exploding in fire. We hear the questions rise In terrible flame like the whistle of a crazy dog Like the acid vomit of the fire of Hell Who and Who and WHO who who Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo! Copyright 2002. Amiri Baraka. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 12 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM This just changed my life, and the tears are flowing... and I thank you both; Gojira, and Amiri Baraka! Blessings! ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: khandu Date: 12 Jan 03 - 05:59 PM According to "snopes", the report of the 4000 Jews that were absent on 9-11 is false. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: KarlMarx Date: 12 Jan 03 - 05:59 PM Bill O'Reilly and the other neocons at Fox called Amiri Baraka a "terrorist," because of this "unpatriotic" piece. Furthermore, there were calls for Baraka to resign as Poet Laureate of New Jersey, and apologize for this "insensitive" poem. Fortunately for all of us free-speechniks, though, the Governor of the Garden State could not remove Baraka, because once the laureate committee makes their selection, that's all she wrote. Long may Baraka write . . . !!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:02 PM Well... I'm a free-speechnik, too, but I thought that was a total, unadulterated piece of crap. Personal opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: khandu Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:06 PM Beccy, that was well put! "unadulterated piece of crap"...what a wonderful turn of phrase! ;-) My sentiments, exactly! k |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: katlaughing Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:07 PM polarising, anti-diversity, lots of anger, and racist in its own way I think she has some valid points, but I think she went over the top with it. Certainly she has a right to speak it and maintain her position. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:08 PM Non so blind as will not see, Beccy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM Ditto, Guest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: khandu Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:15 PM Beccy, that was well put! "Ditto, guest"...what a wonderful turn of phrase! ;-) My sentiments, exactly! k |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: KarlMarx Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM Baraka was obviously engaging in hyperbole in the lines stating "Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers/To stay home that day/Why did Sharon stay away?" But Kurt Nimmo, in his article discussing the "Somebody Blew Up America" controversy, entitled "Poetry as Treason," notes that "Newsbytes reported on September 27, 2001, that employees of Odigo, an instant messaging company in Herzliyya, Israel, received messages warning of the attacks two hours before they occurred. Alex Diamandis, vice president of sales and marketing for Odigo, confirmed that workers in Israeli received the messages. The story was subsequently carried by CNN and Ha'aretz in Israel." Is the poem angry? Sure. Racist? Perhaps there are shades. But the man has a right to his opinion, and the right to write about the world as he sees it. Now, is that treason, as Boy George's stooges in the White House and at Fox Network would have us believe . . . ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Rick Fielding Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:30 PM Well, those who've been a little worried that "The Sopranos" have been giving New Jersey a bad name came relax. Can you just picture the very moment that The Gov. sees the poem for the first time? Holy shit! Picture those old "Honeymooner" shows where Ralph Kramden goes "huma-huma-huma-huma...." fire the poet? You gotta be kiddin'!! Can you IMAGINE the shit if the poet WAS fired? Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: KarlMarx Date: 12 Jan 03 - 06:39 PM I forgot to mention that the poem was written ten months before Baraka took the title of poet laureate. But yes, everybody and their brother, and sister, with an axe to grind, tried to get Baraka to resign, or to be fired. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Lonesome EJ Date: 12 Jan 03 - 08:37 PM Anyone with the determination to read that thing in its entireity deserves the Honorary John Milton Award for Patience and Masochism. Whether or not Baraka retains her title of Poet Laureate should have no impact on my nomination of her as the person with whom I'd least like to get stuck in a malfunctioning elevator. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Lonesome EJ Date: 12 Jan 03 - 08:38 PM Sorry, not "her", "him". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,Q Date: 12 Jan 03 - 08:55 PM Racist, incoherent, paranoid, acephalic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,Blue-Eyed Devil Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:02 PM Who? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:05 PM Monica again? .... acephalic?....... Huh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:26 PM yawn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Jeri Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:40 PM Acephalous. Who got no head? And need no pillow in bed? Bad angry poetry. Ginsberg did good angry poetry, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 12 Jan 03 - 09:42 PM Answers to some of the questions Who do the saying..........You & CNN Who is them paying..........Us Who tell the lies...........You Who in disguise.............Tom Daschle Who had the slaves..........Romans, Anti-Americans and the Sudanese Who got the bux out the Bucks.......Well it stopped at Truman's desk. Who got fat from plantations......Non-Christains Who genocided Indians.........First fellow Indians, then Europeans, then Americans and NOW the casino gamblers. Tried to waste the Black nation......Margaret Sanger Who live on Wall Street........People Duh The first plantation...........Europeans Who cut your nuts off..........yeesh Who rape your ma..........Leave my mom out of this Who lynched your pa........Social Security Who got the tar, who got the feathers........Frat Boys Who had the match, who set the fires.......Arsenists Duh Who killed and hired.........Stalin Who say they God & still be the Devil.......The Devil Who the biggest only..........God Who the most goodest..........Jesus Who do Jesus resemble.........God Who created everything........God Who the smartest.........You think you are Who the greatest.........Muhammad Ali said he was, but it's God Who the richest..........Call Forbes Magazine Who say you ugly and they the goodlookingest.....Muhammad Ali Duh Who define art...........Androgynous Eunuchs Who define science..........Men & Women Duh Who made the bombs..........Alfred B Nobel & Oppenheimer and a DEMOCRAT dropped THE BOMB Answered by Beccy's Hubby By the way, Who let the dogs out? Who and Who and WHO who who Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: mack/misophist Date: 12 Jan 03 - 10:52 PM I thought he was a magnificent poet when he was younger. This is belaboured, overworked, fraught, and much too long. He's a poet, not a historian or a reporter. Let him be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,Q Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:04 PM Also acephalocystic. Acephalic- See OED post-1987. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:32 PM Looks like this poem is doing the work the poet intended it to. If it did cause a request for a resignation, it wouldn't be the first time. The line I found most important, on the first reading (it takes about three times through a poem for it to begin to sink in): "Who told you what you think that later you find out a lie" Riteous indignation is the kind of response this poet wanted. And if people begin to figure out what this is about, that line will be all the more meaningful. Thanks for posting it. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Barry Finn Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:36 PM Brilliant. A masterpiece, angry yes, racist no, right from the heart of third world America. Who would silence a poet unless it struck a deep cord & it hurt like hell. To late right now to go on, but I love it. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Peg Date: 12 Jan 03 - 11:54 PM A stunning piece of work. Baraka has lost none of his edge since his Dutchman days... I find the notion that any Poet Laureate should be asked to resign his title, because of a poem he has written, to be patently absurd and utterly ironic... But what do I know, I write poetry, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: katlaughing Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:06 AM Something about preaching to the choir which gets up my nose about this. It still reads belaboured and overdone to me. I don't think the kind of righteous indignation I felt was the type he hoped for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:22 AM If you scroll to the bottom of this page you'll find the poem "Interval with Erato" that got Scott Cairns fired from SPU (someone in Seattle chime in and remind me what acronym this is? Seattle Pacific University?). Mark Walhout wrote and excellent article that appeared in the Seattle Weekly a number of years ago. In part of his introduction to the poem, originally published in the Paris Review, he says
There, in a word, is the inspiration for Scott Cairn's "Interval with Erato," which records the light-hearted "pillow talk" of a poet and his muse. As the poet makes playful love to Erato, she delivers a rather peevish discourse on the faults of contemporary poets. (The classical model for this sort of discourse is the "Ars Poetica" ["The Art of Poetry"] of Horace, considered the foremost authority on the subject until well into the 19th century.) In the end, after orgasm, she rewards him with a poem. But why would a Christian poet like Scott Cairns wirte such a studiously pagan poem--a poem that rivals Ovid himself in anatomizing the pleasures of the flesh? The answer is that Cairns wants to reclaim the body for Christian art and theology--a theme that has been all but lost in modern Protestantism, despite the fact that the Incarnation--God's miraculous embodiment in the person of Jesus--is the central mystery of the Christian faith. Because of this stance, and the lack of understanding of the administrators at his ultra-conservative christian univeristy, he was asked to resign. Their loss! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Jan 03 - 09:22 AM Bad poetry. If that bunch of questions was in prose, nobody would take it serious. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 13 Jan 03 - 09:49 AM I'm with you on this, Kat. I'm pretty sure Baraka didn't intend to stir up my hubby and invoke the above response. To my mind, Baraka was shooting for the literary (sic) equivalent of a war cry to one ideological group and an open handed slap to several others. Lonesome EJ- I have to agree with you on the Milton Award, but I do think it's the basis for a much more stirring parlor game than "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon". How about "Answer Baraka's Questions"? It's bound to be absurd and highly amusing. After all, look at the source. One other thing... If I compose caca like that, and I posit that anyone probably can, can I have a State's Poet Laureate designation? I could use a little more cash. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:12 AM The poem is written from the margin, addressed to the center. And these typical defensive reactions are exactly the dialog the poet probably expected from those situated in that center. It's disappointing to see so many of those responses here. It's not a case of "if you don't understand it, ridicule it," it's a case of "we understand it all too well and reject it." It doesn't mean that it's an indictment of every person of European origin, and it doesn't say that no one of color participated in these attrocities also. This was brought to the poem by the reader. The Red Wheelbarrow so much depends upon a red wheel barrow glazed with rain water beside the white chickens. -- William Carlos Williams |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: mack/misophist Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:25 AM Part of the problem here may hinge on the fact that, for many years, there have been two separate groups involved with poetry. The main faction is the academic one, speaking almost exclusively to itself and not seeming to notice if the world outside cares or comprehends. And the great unwashed who simply enjoy good classical poetry. Amina Baraka seems to have slipped from the fence into the academic camp; which, of course, means that those most qualified to understand are the least likely to be consulted. Plus, I think it's bad poetry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Amos Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:48 AM It is not bad poetry, but it is highly specialized poetry, heavy with rhetorical devices and in that way as hollow as the target of its complaints. I think there are other and better ways to express these sentiments in poetry. One that comes to mind is: I'd rather drink muddy water And sleep in a hollow log Than stay here in Houston Jes' to be your salty dog.... There may be some merit to the approach of flinging old garbage into the air while reciting "This is garbage, this is garbage, this is also garbage and this too is garbage...." -- it makes the poem almost as deadening as the original offenses. Maybe that's just deserts. But I prefer Yeats, Warren, Dylan Thomas and ee cummings, which is a sure sign of how old I am. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:49 AM I've gone to the poet's website. A bit of the original poem was left out of the version posted in this thread. It should read at the very top: SOMEBODY BLEW UP AMERICA (All thinking people oppose terrorism both domestic & international… But one should not be used To cover the other) . . . This is the poet's web page where I found the full poem. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 03 - 11:08 AM Well, I just remember the sentiments held by one of my professors when I was I was in art school. He was of the opinion that good art is art that invokes a reaction. I'd say from reading this thread that Baraka's poem has definately cleared the bar. I liked the poem. Hey, sure I found myself mentally arguing with him on some points and on others nodding in agreement. But, once I started reading it, I was compelled to finish it... and I suspect that many Catters who have given critical reviews did the same. In that respect, agree with the man or not, as *art*, it works. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Jan 03 - 11:20 AM My, Bobert, you have thoroughly misunderstood the professor. From 'if it is good art, then it invokes a reaction' you make 'if it invokes a reaction it is good art'. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 13 Jan 03 - 11:41 AM Not to pile on, Bobert, but there are plenty things that provoke reaction that do not qualify as good art. Without going out too far on a limb, I would suggest that yelling fire in a crowded theatre (which would certainly provoke reaction) does not qualify as any art, let alone good art. Misophist- I find myself with you on the subject of this poem. There is plenty of revolutionary poetry which speaks to the heart, angers the soul, works the mind and all various permutations of the aforementioned. Leaving aside entirely my personal opinions on Mr. Baraka's opinions and bent, this is simply bad composition. I stand by my assertion that anyone could write this- and that is what makes it completely unextraordinary in any respect other than the attempted insult/rallying cry. Which brings us back to why I piled on poor Bobert above. Reaction is not equal to art. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Lonesome EJ Date: 13 Jan 03 - 11:49 AM The poem may have the distinction of representing the first use of the "exploding owl" metaphor. At least, I'm aware of no other use predating it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 03 - 11:59 AM Splitting hairs, Wolfgang... Yelling "fire" in a theater, Beccy is not art. It's a crime. There's a major difference that I'm sure 99.99% od adults understand completely. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM A poem about how fun lynching people is would also provoke a great deal of reaction, and none of it would center around the quality of the words. While this poem does provoke reaction, most of it is content-centered. The actual poem scans very poorly to my ears. There is no meter, an irregular rhyme scheme that would be better of entirely absent, and the little imagery is confused and melodramatic beyond any need. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM Again, using examples of criminal actions to "evoke a reaction" is not what a fair rebuttal to the premise that artists try to create art that will bring a reaction from the viewer, reader or listener. Anything less falls into the muzac or arts and crafts category. And some art isn't pretty. Take "Guernica" (sp) by Picasso. There is nothing pretty about this painting but if you have ever seen it then you would have to have no level of art appreciation to appreciate this powerfull work of art. One can "appreciate" art without liking it. I appreciate Rembrandt for his painterly qualities but there's very little of his stuff that I like. In poetry, I appreciate and like the structuredness of the Robert Frost's but also apprerciate and like the unstructuredness of the Kelso's and Ferlingetti's. Poetry is not exclusively about rhyme and meter. It's like prose shorthand. It's about painting picture with few words. It's about imagery, emotions, visions, ideas and observations. Okay, since this is a music site, think opera. I'm sure their are folks here who see as much of it as they can and that's fine. I don't like opera myself, inspite of being married to a trained and excellent soprano. But I do appreciate it. The end. If you all want to split more hairs or bring up more criminal activity as rebuttals, knock yer-seffs out! I'm done... Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:13 PM I am amased at the preponderence juvenile critiques here...simply off the cuff reactions... the research that must have gone into this poem is impressive... the hearsay doctrines all over history, swept under the carpet... and Baraka simply rolls back the carpet, much to our chagrin... I'd be heard saying that "the intolerance displayed here by the poters is but smoke... the fires raging inside them are the issue now"... But yes, this is one irritating collage... I must agree! One can read far worse into a Steven King novel... but that's fantasy! ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:17 PM Okay, Bobert. Leaving aside the criminal activity analogies, I want to know if you think the following is art: Bobert stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks ert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bob Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Bobert Stinks Stinky Bobert Stinky Is that art simply because I was trying to provoke a reaction from you? ... Perhaps, we are disagreeing on a matter that will never be beyond that of personal opinion. I do not think that "art" is an empirical distinction. There can be a debate over what does and does not fall into the art category just as there is a debate over what is and is not beautiful. I know full well that I can appreciate art without liking it. My personal examples? I "appreciate" Meryl Streep's acting, but it puts me to sleep. I "appreciate" Wagner, but... come on- how much Brunhilde can YOU handle? I "appreciate" and like Verdi, Degas, Alison Kraus, and others. My point? One man's art is another man's Baraka. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:25 PM One more thing I wanted to clear up, Bobert. Are you saying that it isn't art unless the artist INTENDS to anger elicit (insert strong emotional reaction here) from the viewer/listener? Does that mean you do not think that valuable art can be accidental? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:27 PM Hey beccy, would you mind terribly if I asked you to post something kind and considerate? Just one would be refreshing... or maybe you should up your dosage... ;^) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: John Hardly Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:30 PM I am reminded of the Art class (in the Christian college from which I graduated) how hard the prof labored to teach us the difference between Art and propaganda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:34 PM Thomas- Maybe you're reading too much into what I've written. How are my questions inconsiderate? I assumed that when Bobert posted, he was asking for discussion. Since we're on the subject... I think you have a little of "the pot calling the kettle black" syndrome. That upping the dosage comment tipped ya into it! : ) I really do want to know whether good art cannot be accidental. And I really do want to know whether "it" is not art unless the artist intends to elicit a strong reaction from the viewer/listener/reader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 13 Jan 03 - 02:01 PM Beccy, I consider you to be a borderline flamer at this stage, because you have not realised your responsibility here at the 'cat to be 'just a little' charming and considerate... as I have been in the past... good point... Revulotionary art, especially political, has always upset the middle class the most, because the middle class has the most to lose soonest if the show goes under... No intentions necessary... believe me! :^) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 13 Jan 03 - 02:05 PM Okie dokie- upon reflection the "Stinky Bobert" thing mighta set you off. I do not know that Bobert is Stinky (no offense meant, Bobert). In fact, not knowing him, I could just as easily say that I'm sure that he smells as lovely as a rose. I was illustrating my point using his criterion. My apologies if you thought that I was really directing an insult to Bobert. Please substitute the name "Beccy" for Bobert in my "composition" if it makes my point more clearly than did the original. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Amos Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:11 PM Beccy: The skill in art is to communicate. Since you did not really mean to communicate that Bobert Stinks, lacking any motive, your piece did not come across as art. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:16 PM Beccy: Good on you! I personally like your "Bobert Stinks" piece. I would have left off the "Stinky Bobert Stinky" at the end but that just me... The presentation, however, seems a bit *contrived*. Now if you had just started a new thread entitled "Beccy Art" and done this, I think it would have played better. I had an art teacher in college who taught Seminar in Contmporay Art who once picked up a waste basket and heaved the contents onto the floor and said it was *art*. Heck, works fir me. And, *yes* and *no* to "accidental art". In a way, all art is accidental in that artists just happen to find these little nuggets of inspiration from life quite randomly (i.e. Mondrian, Pollock, etc.) that are the sparks to bring about the "piece"... And then there are Dadaist, myself included, who see potential in *accidental objects* (meaning only that there position in this big universe is not planned... at least by man). Duchamp, the father of the Dadaist movement saw the potential for expression with such objects. I'm presently working on such a "piece" in taking 4 rather large and heavy industrial *accidental* objects that I have assigned value. When I first saw them, I saw them as art and hopefully I can make them better art by manipulating their spacial relationships. The *no* part of my answer is that, and this is my opinion, until someone stops to assign artistic value to an *accidental* phenomonon, it is just material, like paint still in the tube. That is the beauty of it all. It does involve man. And don't let ttr get to ya, Beccy. He's once branded me as "pompous", which I must have earned from one of my rants or another. But between rants, I do throw a few fresh peas into the stew... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: catspaw49 Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:20 PM I dunno' if Bobert stinks although most agree he does have an unpleasant aroma. And the poem? Well, that's some piece of work......I think.....maybe.....or not.............Tell ya' what though, never in my life have I been so happy to have a shallow mind. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:36 PM Spawzer: All in the nose of the beholder, my friend. And be sweet, 'ir I'll send you another jar of Bobert's homemade *Possum Cologne*... Talk about aroma?!?!... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Beccy Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:37 PM It's been a diversion! Speaking of stew, Bobert- I'm off to stir mine. It's 14F and blustery around here. I need some beef stew to renew the energy I spent on this discussion. Chow for now (msp intended...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM Arguing poetry with English majors around can keep a thread going for a while! Want to try another one? Perhaps if the subject doesn't feel so personal to some readers, the point several have tried to make above might be easier to grasp? It's just as acerbic as the one above, however. Moreso. This gem is by Audre Lorde, and is called "jessehelms" On second thought, I'll post the link because this one might not get past some folks' spam guards. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,So called poetry YUK!!!!!!! Date: 13 Jan 03 - 03:57 PM This load of old rabid nonsense falls far short of anything I recognise as poetry...Sorry folks but poetry should have some meter and rhyme or at very least evoke beauty this self opinionated hothead bullshit is simply some overblown ego enjoying the luxury of his position (laureate I dont think so,surely to be that you've got to know how to write poetry)This so called poem evokes no discussion of its structure and finely crafted wordmanship.....All it evokes is the rantings of fellow hothead bullshitters.....No sorry this aint poetry,it is simply egomania let loose..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:21 PM Hmmmmmm, aren't we tolerant GUEST? And I guess that Van Gogh isn't an artist because he didn't adher to century's old "paintery" techniques. There's more to poetry than rhyme and meter, my friend... And keep in mind that just about every invention, including this one that you have just used to vent, started with someone thinking out of the box. The mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open. Trite? Sure. But makes a lot of sense. Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,...and the first two don't count Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:27 PM Hot head hot head flaming guest Do your damnedest go your best Ignoniniums fail the test These structures hide false meaning's jest I don't write out prose to soften Or call it poetry very often Rhyming I, in meter'd coffin Find joy in song, for singin... laughin With negatives a dime o dozen A list like this; a toster oven No singing here this distant cousin But let it be... with out yer buzzin... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,So called poetry YUK!!!!!!! Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:39 PM GUEST,...and the first two don't count ...now thats good poetry...well done.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,So called poetry YUK!!!!!!! Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:41 PM GUEST,...and the first two don't count ...I like that....if you made this one up off the cuff.perhaps you should be poet laureate...well done.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:42 PM Bobert, I think these two must be fans of Musak--that's how they like their poetry. Bland and sing-songy. They're not interested in thinking about what they read. They just want it to rhyme. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:52 PM Ouch! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 03 - 09:06 PM Hey, ttr. Ain't 'bout you, brother. It's 'bout these GUEST's who are so hung up on rhyme and meter that content don't matter... JUst so long at it rhymes... Now, the great ttr goes way beyond rhyme into actual *thought*, actual *content* and actual *issue*. No ouch. Ya want ouch, read GUEST's attempted poetry. That's ouch *plus*! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Barry Finn Date: 13 Jan 03 - 09:43 PM This is not the poetry of Yeats, Cummings, Frost, Ferlingetti or even Ginsberg. It's not structured, there's no rhyme or reason, timing or meter but it's poetry & there's beauty dispite it's birth. This is the voice of LeRoi Jones aka Imanu Amiri Baraka. This is the voice of 3rd world America, of the street, the getto, of the places where visitors aren't welcome & tourists don't go, where God gave his last blessing a millenium ago & forgot that devil still walks. Where the dying strive to survive & the dead dream about the living. Maybe it's direction, guestioning of who & what we all are & what we're subject to & subjects of is not so apparant. Maybe it should be & if it isn't maybe asking why it isn't should be the next guestion. Thoreau was asked what was he doing in jail & replied what are you doing out there (or something to that effect, it's been to long). There are others that might open the ear to this kind of voice. In perticular try the Last Poets (http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/LAST-Poets/last_poetsO.htlm). These are the voices that I grew up with & the answers were there long before the questions were ever asked. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Barry Finn Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:22 PM Something went wrong there. Try http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/LAST-POETS/last_poets0.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:32 PM The following comes from an email posted by the American poet Carter Revard on an American Indian discussion list. Revard is a scholar of many things, and in retirement is spending time in England, France, Italy, and Spain finding ancient texts to translate for some of his research. He sends wonderfully well-thought-out posts, and this is one of four that I had printed up several years ago, I thought they were so good. A special issue of the journal Studies in American Indian Literature (Carter is part Ponca and Osage) will pay tribute to his work, and on a whim several of us contributed our favorite Revard emails. Perhaps this will help clarify the discussion here, as it did for participants on that discussion list. It was sent right around July 4, hence the holiday references:
I see those as the chief identifying features of what we call prose. Everything else is optional: the rhythms, the placement-of modifiers, the inversional arrangements of sentences, the grammatical constraints linked to the post-medieval notions of "sentence" for instance--all of those features are called "stylistics" and the patterned selection and deployment of these is considered the hallmark of a given prose writer, the "style-identity" of that writer. How then does "poetry" differ from "prose" as so defined? I think maybe the only discernible difference is in how line-lengths and "empty" space are used. In "poetry" there is usually a lot more "empty space" both before each "line" and after each "line, " and the amount of space is not predetermined by the pagemakers or the bookmakers, but is at the will of the writer. Where a "line" is broken, and how each line is spaced from the left margin, from the right margin, and in relation to preceding and following "lines," is more at the will of the writer for "poems" than for "prose," although writers like Tom Wolfe have made more poem-like use of spaces and line-breaks than was done in most 19th and 20th century prose earlier than Wolfe's. Such poeticizing is not confined to essay-writers though; it was anticipated in the balloons of comic strips, because the language in those is very often "imitated" from "real speech" or the kind of "real" speech allowed and used in the conventions of comic strips, where the constraints on language are much greater than in a book of essays (in older books at least). Mark Twain's use of his own pretended drawings in his Travel Books is maybe one place where the comic-strip conventions are anticipated, and he was in a tradition that should be traced back to Aretino at least and actually to lots and lots of medieval, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Sumerian, Chinese, Mayan things I'm sure but ignorance here prevents my explaining, all THAT and wasting a hole lot of phosphorescent pixels by doing so. So, in short, prose is what page and book designers do with the spatial arrangement of words; poetry is also that, but writers of "poems" are allowed more freedom to arrange the words spatially, and to use machines to fix these arrangements so that editors won't change them or force them to fit into squared-off line-formats. Poetry is "more marginally free" than prose. Otherwise there is no necessary and sufficient difference, since we do not require differences in content, in treatment, in linguistic patterning, or anything OTHER than line-endings and spatial arrangements. To come back then to my "prose poem"--what makes it a PROSE poem is nothing more than its mostly having each line fill the whole breadth of a prose page. Each "line" is really a line of dialogue and the pretended format is that of an INTERVIEW: one line is a question, marked as Q, and the next is an ANSWER, marked as A. Since this leans that the language imitates that of "spoken English," there is little if any use of "rhyme" or periodic-sentence structure" or other indicators of "enriched" language such as might have been used in either a poem or prose passage; stylistically the language is therefore "neutral." (The stereotype is that a11 poetry should use "enriched" language, but that if it is used in prose it results in "purple patches," which are regarded not as honorable bruises of passion but as tarting-up eyeliner or cheap tattoos.) In other words, what I wrote is a poem, and it has certain features associated by most readers with prose, so it is called a prose poem, mostly because it uses space and line-endings in a prosy way. He has a way with words, does Carter! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Coyote Breath Date: 14 Jan 03 - 01:48 AM ! CB |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,So called poetry YUK!!!!!!! Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:27 AM Poppycock blokes !...how ever you dress it up...this so called poem is little more than an outpouring of "Right On" ranting and raving....please dont tell us that a poet laureate speaks for the oppressed third world and victims of the ghetto....such lofty titles diametricaly contradict the possibilty....You white brudders just black up and try spending a day down in Dem o'l ghettoes man talking about yer brudder da' poet laureate...Yoooz aint goanna' liv man....As for the "last poets"...there work whilst harping back to an older more literate form of "Rap" than passes for the genre today...is spiced with anti white racist,black fascist terminology...You liberals out there try posting your honky poetry at the "Def" poets website and see how anti discriminatory your so called bruvvers of colour are when they delete your entries coz you aint one o' dem.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:35 AM the research that must have gone into this poem is impressive (Thomas the Rhymer) I'm not impressed. Of the three German proper names he uses he got one correct, namely 'Hitler'. I think that is a good indication of his care in gathering the information. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 03 - 09:35 AM It's written to suggest a black ethnic idomatic form, Wolfgang, and the message is clear, regardless of the preferred spelling of ANY of the names. TtR is correct. But it's clear that some of these nay-sayers can't see the forest for the trees--it's one thing to simply say that you don't like a poem, but all of the arguments that our YUKKY!!!!!GUEST is coming up with simply display a lack of tolerance to non-mainstream art. He's a bigot. Archie Bunker, go home. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jan 03 - 09:55 AM Come on, SRS, you are not serious, are you, in suggesting that e.g. 'Liebneckt' instead of 'Liebknecht' is anything else but carelessness. Liebneckt a preferred spelling in the black ethnic idiomatic form? It's o.k., if you like the poem, but you don't have to defend each letter. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jan 03 - 10:06 AM BTW, can anybody explain the line 'who stole...The Hebrides' to me? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM Ah, so if the "preferred" spelling isn't there, it's sloppy scholarship? Give me a break! They both work, and both bring up results in a Google search. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 03 - 10:47 AM "Who stole the Indies, the Philipines, Manhattan Australia & The Hebrides" Off the top of my head going through those names, I'd list the Spanish (West Indies) or Dutch and others (East Indies), Chinese then Spanish (Philipines--but careful, there are several spellings of that!), Dutch then English (Manhattan), English (Australia), and French (if it is New Hebrides). What is the answer to the Hebrides near Scotland? Looks like the answer to that one is "Tourists." This, of course, is the most recent wave of colonizers in the last 400 years or so. There were certainly earlier waves of other groups that the Europeans muscled in on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: GUEST,colwyn dane Date: 14 Jan 03 - 12:09 PM This is all subjective stuff and brings to mind the prologue from 'The Song of Bernadette' "For those who believe no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."[approx.] In other words you are all correct as you normally eat what you like or what is right for you. Amos with his 'The skill in art is to communicate.' is on the right track as the action of 'real art' is absolutely definite; each according to their own level will receive the same ideas and the same feelings that the artist wanted to transmit to them. 'Pouring from the vacuum into the void.' CD. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jan 03 - 12:38 PM Sorry for being unclear, SRS. I only meant the stealing of the Hebrides which I didn't get. I don't believe for a second the tourist interpretation, but I consider it possible that Baraka was mixing up New Hebrides and Hebrides. Who know why Five Israelis was filming the explosion And cracking they sides at the notion That information is listed on the snopes pages as an urban legend with the status 'untrue'. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 14 Jan 03 - 01:43 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Jan 03 - 03:26 PM Good answer, Colwyn, and allows us to drop these discussions when it's clear we're talking from positions so different the information isn't making any difference. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Somebody Blew Up America From: belfast Date: 14 Jan 03 - 03:30 PM I was reading this poem a few minutes before it dawned on me that it was probably written for an oral performance. And, yes, I do know there was a time when all poetry was like that. I suspect that such a performance before an appreciative audience would be a powerful and emotive experience. This is not to denigrate the written word or what is written here but to put it into some sort of context for myself. Yet I would cavil at the two references to Israelis (urban legends it seems). I don't think I am being hypersensitive when I notice that sometimes objections to the undoubted crimes of the Israeli Government is used as an excuse, a cover, for simple anti-semitism. |