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Origins: Thorneymoor Woods / Thornehagh-Moor Woods

GUEST,vince 13 Jan 03 - 08:22 AM
nutty 13 Jan 03 - 08:56 AM
nutty 13 Jan 03 - 08:59 AM
GUEST 13 Jan 03 - 08:59 AM
masato sakurai 13 Jan 03 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,MCP 13 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM
pavane 13 Jan 03 - 12:40 PM
Jim Dixon 10 Feb 03 - 12:06 AM
Joe Offer 29 Aug 22 - 03:07 PM
MoorleyMan 29 Aug 22 - 03:57 PM
Joe Offer 31 Aug 22 - 11:21 AM
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Subject: Lyr Req: thorneymoor woods
From: GUEST,vince
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:22 AM

hi, anyone got a set of lyrics to 'Thornymoor Woods'? I know Anne Briggs did a fab version some years ago on Topic. Is it sometimes also known as the nottinghamshire poacher or is that another one?
Ta, Vince


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: thorneymoor woods
From: nutty
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:56 AM

Here's a pre 1840 broadside of the song in The Bodleian Museum

click here to view


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: thorneymoor woods
From: nutty
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:59 AM

Here's the info on the above broadside

Printer   Hoggett, T. (Durham)
Date:
          between 1816 and 1843
   
          Imprint: T. Hoggett, Printer, Durham
          Ballads on sheet: 1
   
            
Copies:    Harding B 25(1898)
   
            
Ballads:    1. Thorney-moor woods ("In Thorney-moor woods, in Nottinghamshire ...")
            
Subject: Poaching
Note: Slip


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: thorneymoor woods
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:59 AM

Yes, same song. See this page


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: thorneymoor woods
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 09:35 AM

It is a variant of The Nottinghamshire Poacher (from The Traditional Ballad Index). These may not be the Briggs version, but there're some broadside editions at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

(1) Thorney-moor woods ("In Thorney-moor woods, in Nottinghamshire ...")
Harding B 25(1898)
Printer: Hoggett, T. (Durham)
Date: between 1816 and 1843
Imprint: T. Hoggett, Printer, Durham

(2) Thorny moor wood ("In Thorny moor wood, in Nottinghamshire ...")
Harding B 11(3802)
Printer: [s.n.] ([s.l.])
Date: [s.a.]

(3) Thorny-moor woods ("In Thorny-moor woods, in Nottinghamshire ...")
2806 c.17(425)
Printer: Swindells (Manchester)
Date: between 1796 and 1853
Imprint: Swindells, Printer

(4) The lads of Thorney Moor Wood ("In Thorney Moor Woods in Nottinghamshire ...")
Firth b.34(206)
Printer: Pitts, J. (London)
Date: between 1819 and 1844
Note: For imprint see Harding B 11(2692), which is another impression

(5) The lads of Thorney moor wood ("In Thorney moor woods in Nottinghamshire ...")
Harding B 11(2692)
Printer: Pitts, J. (London)
Date: between 1819 and 1844
Imprint: Pitts, Printer, wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse, 6, Gt. St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials
Note: Firth b.34(206) is another impression

(6) Thorney moor wood ("In Thorney moor woods in Nottinghamshire ...")
Harding B 17(311b)
Printer: Catnach, J. (London)
Date: between 1813 and 1838
Imprint: J. Catnach, Printer, 2, Monmouth-court, 7 Dials

(7) The lads of Thorney moor woods ("In Thorney moor woods in Nottinghamshire ...")
Harding B 25(1042)
Johnson Ballads 887
Printer: Pitts, J. (London)
Date: between 1819 and 1844
Imprint: J. Pitts, Printer, Wholesale Toy and Marble Warehouse 6, Great St. Andrew street, 7 Dials

(8) Thorney moor wood ("In Thorney moor wood in Nottinghamshire ...")
Harding B 11(3803)
Harding B 11(3804)
Printer: Such, H. (London)
Date: between 1863 and 1885
Imprint: London: H.P. Such, Machine Printer & Publisher, 177, Union- st., Boro'. Printer's Series: (22).
Note: Harding B 11(3804) is printed on orange paper.

(9) The lads of Thorney moor woods ("In Thorney moor woods in Nottinghamshire ...")
Harding B 28(237)
Printer: Crome, J.? (Sheffield)
Date: [s.a.]

(10) The lads of Thorney moor woods ("In Thorney moor woods in Nottinghamshire ...")
Firth c.19(57)
Harding B 11(1199)
Printer: Harkness, J. (Preston)
Date: between 1840 and 1866
Imprint: John Harkness, Printer, Church Street, Preston.

(11) Thorney moor wood ("In Thorney moor wood in Nottinghamshire ...")
Firth c.19(58)
Printer: [s.n.] ([s.l.])
Date: [s.a.]

(12) Thorny-moor woods ("In Thorny-moor woods in Nottinghamshire ...")
Harding B 28(159)
Printer: Armstrong, W. (Liverpool)
Date: between 1820 and 1824
Imprint: Printed for W. Armstrong, Banastre-street

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: thorneymoor woods
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM

Roud's song index has 59 entries for the song under various titles - Thorneymoor Woods, Thornaby Woods, Old Fat Buck etc. Some of the more accessible versions might be the ones in Palmer: Everyman's Book of English Country Songs and Songs of the Midlands; Kennedy: Folksongs of Britain & Ireland; Purslow: Marrow Bones (these last 2, from Harry Cox and Mrs. Webb differ marginally in 1 less verse in the latter, both similar to the ones linked above); and a couple of vesions in the Karpeles(ed): Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs (Thundermanshire in one)

There were several version recorded on various Topic records eg Louis Killen on Ballads and Broadsides (Cox's version). Roy Harris also used to sing this IIRC - (George Dunn's version I'd guess).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: thorneymoor woods
From: pavane
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 12:40 PM

Has also been recorded by Martin Carthy, I think (but hasn't everything?)


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Subject: Lyr Add: THORNEHAGH-MOOR WOODS
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 12:06 AM

Lyrics and notes copied from http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/ballad14.html

THORNEHAGH-MOOR WOODS
A celebrated Nottinghamshire poacher's song.

In Thornehagh-Moor woods, in Nottinghamshire,
Fol de rol, la re, right fol laddie, dee;
In Robin Hood's bold Nottinghamshire,
Fol de rol, la re da;

Three keepers' houses stood three-square,
And about a mile from each other they were; -
Their orders were to look after the deer.
Fol de rol, la re da.

I went out with my dogs one night, -
The moon shone clear, and the stars gave light;
Over hedges and ditches, and steyls
With my two dogs close at my heels,
To catch a fine buck in Thornehagh-Moor fields.

Oh! that night we had bad luck,
One of my very best dogs was stuck;
He came to me both breeding and lame, -
Right sorry was I to see the same, -
He was not able to follow the game.

I searched his wounds, and found them slight,
Some keeper has done this out of spite;
But I'll take my pike-staff, - that's the plan!
I'll range the woods till I find the man,
And I'll tan his hide right well, - if I can!

I ranged the woods and groves all night,
I ranged the woods till it proved daylight;
The very first thing that then I found,
Was a good fat buck that lay dead on the ground;
I knew my dogs gave him his death-wound.

I hired a butcher to skin the game,
Likewise another to sell the same;
The very first buck he offered for sale,
Was to an old [hag] that sold bad ale,
And she sent us three poor lads to gaol.

The quarter sessions we soon espied,
At which we all were for to be tried;
The Chairman laughed the matter to scorn,
He said the old woman was all forsworn,
And unto pieces she ought to be torn.

The sessions are over, and we are clear!
The sessions are over, and we sit here,
Singing fol de rol, la re da!
The very best game I ever did see,
Is a buck or a deer, but a deer for me!
In Thornehagh-Moor woods this night we'll be!
Fol de rol, la re da!

[Nottinghamshire was, in the olden day, famous in song for the achievements of Robin Hood and his merry men. In our times the reckless daring of the heroes of the 'greenwood tree' has descended to the poachers of the county, who have also found poets to proclaim and exult over their lawless exploits; and in Thornehagh-Moor Woods we have a specimen of one of these rude, but mischievous and exciting lyrics. The air is beautiful, and of a lively character; and will be found in Popular Music. There is a prevalent idea that the song is not the production of an ordinary ballad-writer, but was written about the middle of the last century by a gentleman of rank and education, who, detesting the English game-laws, adopted a too successful mode of inspiring the peasantry with a love of poaching. The song finds locality in the village of Thornehagh, in the hundred of Newark. The common, or Moor-fields, was inclosed about 1797, and is now no longer called by the ancient designation. It contains eight hundred acres. The manor of Thornehagh is the property of the ancient family of Nevile, who have a residence on the estate.]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Thorneymoor Woods / Thornehagh-Moor Woods
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Aug 22 - 03:07 PM

Joe - needs work


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Subject: ADD Version: Thorneymoor Woods
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 29 Aug 22 - 03:57 PM

This is the version I sing, I got it from the Anne Briggs recording and just tweaked the odd word here and there for scansion.

THORNEYMOOR WOODS

In Thorneymoor Woods in Nottinghamshire,
Thorneymoor Woods in Nottinghamshire,
Three game-keepers' houses stood three-square,
About a mile from each other they were
Orders they were to look out for the deer.
Fol de lie, tora lie day

Now me and me dogs went out one night
The moon and the stars were shining bright
O'er hedges and ditches, fields and stiles
With my three dogs trotting close by me heels,
To catch a fat buck down in Thorneymoor fields.
Fol de lie, tora lie day

That very first night we had bad luck,
One of me very best dogs got shot
He come to me all bloody and lame
Right sorry I was for to see the same
And not being able to follow the game.
Fol de lie, tora lie day

I searched his wounds and found them slight
'Twas done by a game-keeper out of spite
Well I'll take a stick right tight in me hand
I'll search the woods till I find that man
I'll thrash his old hide right well if I can
Fol de lie, tora lie day

Now I come home and I went to bed
Limping Jack went out in me stead
O'er hedges and ditches, fields and stiles
He found a buck lying on the ground
My little dog has gave him the death-wound.
Fol de lie, tora lie day

And Limping Jack he cut the buck's throat
Tied his legs with good stout rope
And I had a laugh to see Limping Jack
Hoppin’ along with that buck on his back
Carried it just like a pedlar's pack
Fol de lie, tora lie day


Now we got us a butcher to skin the game
Likewise another to sell the same
And the very first joint as we offered for sale
Was to an old girl she sold bad ale
She had us young lads up in Nottingham gaol
Fol de lie, tora lie day


In Nottingham ’ssizes stand you and I
Us three young lads are up to be tried
But the magistrate laughed her all to scorn
He says the old bugger should be forsworn
Into little pieces torn
Fol de lie, tora lie day


Now Nottingham ’ssizes are gone and past
Us three young lads go free at last
The bucks and the does will never run free
A poacher's life is the life for me
A poacher I will always be
Fol de lie, tora lie,   Fol de lie, tora lie,
Fol de lie, tora lie day


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Subject: RE: Origins: Thorneymoor Woods / Thornehagh-Moor Woods
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 11:21 AM

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry:

Nottinghamshire Poacher, The

DESCRIPTION: The poacher goes out with his dogs to hunt. (One of his dogs is wounded, but) he catches a deer and takes it to a butcher to skin. When he attempts to sell the meat, he is arrested and tried, but finally set free. He vows to continue poaching
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: before 1839 (broadside, Bodleian Harding B 17(311b))
KEYWORDS: dog poaching trial accusation revenge animal judge
FOUND IN: US(MW) Britain(England(South,West))
REFERENCES (10 citations):
Eddy-BalladsAndSongsFromOhio 53, "Thornymuir Fields" (1 text, 1 tune)
Kennedy-FolksongsOfBritainAndIreland 259, "The Old Fat Buck" (1 text, 1 tune)
Broadwood/Maitland-EnglishCountySongs, pp. 50-51, "The Nottinghamshire Poacher" (1 text, 1 tune)
Williams-Wiltshire-WSRO Mi 723, "Thorneymoor Wood in Nottinghamshire" ; Williams-Wiltshire-WSRO Mi 724, "Thorneymoor Wood in Nottinghamshire" (2 texts)
Palmer-EnglishCountrySongbook, #50, "The Nottingham Poacher" (1 text, 1 tune)
Dixon-AncientPoemsBalladsSongsOfThePeasantryOfEngland, Song #28, pp. 219-221, "Thornehagh-Moor Woods" (1 text)
Bell-Combined-EarlyBallads-CustomsBalladsSongsPeasantryEngland, pp. 434-436, "Thornehagh-Moor Woods" (1 text)
MacColl/Seeger-TravellersSongsFromEnglandAndScotland 96, "Thornaby Woods" (1 text, 1 tune)
Roud/Bishop-NewPenguinBookOfEnglishFolkSongs #142, "Thorneymoor Woods" (1 text, 1 tune)
ADDITIONAL: Jon Raven, _The Urban and Industrial Songs of the Black Country and Birmingham_, Broadside, 1977, pp. 18-20, "The Nottinghamshire Poacher" (1 text, 1 tune)

ST E053 (Full)
Roud #222
RECORDINGS:
Anne Briggs, "Thorneymoor Woods" (on Briggs2, Briggs3)
Jasper Smith, "Thornymoor Park" (on Voice18)

BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Harding B 17(311b), "Thorney Moor Wood" ("In Thorney moor woods in Nottinghamshire"), J. Catnach (London), 1813-1838; also Harding B 11(3803), Firth c.19(58), "Thorney Moor Wood"; Harding B 25(1898), "Thorney-moor Woods"; Harding B 11(2692), Firth b.34(206), "The Lads of Thorney Moor Wood"; Johnson Ballads 887, Harding B 28(237), Firth c.19(57), "The Lads of Thorney Moor Woods"
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Lincolnshire Poacher" (theme)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Thorny Woods
Thornymoor Woods
NOTES [71 words]: [MacColl and Seeger report that] "Thorneyhaugh-Moor Woods is in the Hundred of Newark, Nottinghamshire, and was once part of Sherwood Forest." - PJS
Palmer also mentions this possibility, but notes that it was enclosed in 1792 and deforested, so it ceased to be a possible haunt for poachers. He prefers Thornehagh Moor Woods near Newark. Given that the song dates back to 1839, however, I think either site a possibility. - RBW
Last updated in version 4.1
File: E053

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2022 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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