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BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the...
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Subject: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:20 PM Well, when it came to Trent Lott, Bush showed he can "talk the talk" but today has fu8lly demonstarted that he can't "walk the walk". Using flowery righteous terms such as "color blind" Bush has instructed John Ashcroft's boys to file papers with his daddy's Supreme Court which in essence kill "Affirmative Action". In this case in particular, minority enrollments will drop at the University of Michagan from it's current 15% to around 3%. Yeah, 30 some years of America attmepting to level the playing field is going into the crapper! Next on the Bush/Enron/Cheney/Ashcroft/Lockheed-Martin list: Roe v Wadw, the 14th Ammendment.... then the "Emancipation Proclamation". Yeah, Bush gonna get them *niggas back in der cotton fields* and women gettin' abortions behind gas stations if its the last thing he does. And I want to know who all these folks are who supposedly think he's doing a great job? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM Be fair, there is one minority he gives every indication of wanting to do everything he can to help. He might not call it Affirmative Action, but that's what it amounts to: The rich. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:39 PM I once asked a friend, who is black, if she would rather have a job because she was black, or because she was qualified. She said she didn't want to ever get a job just because she was black. My question is, if college and/or employment applications didn't ask questions like gender or race, what would happen? If race isn't supposed to matter, why do we keep making it matter? Just curious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM Bush got to Yale just on his exam results didn't he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:49 PM Well, I favor race-neutral admissions. I think dividing admissions based on racial background only excerbates racial problems, because it unfairly impacts those other races which are not on the receiving end of the bounty, yet don't have anymore socioeconomic perks than their black/latino/etc. neighbors. Once again, the lower end of the economic sprectrum ends up squabbling over crumbs and poor whites -- those who have most in common with poor blacks -- end up resenting what they perceive as special racial priviledges. Been there. As a poor white kid I couldn't compete with poor black kids, even if I was smarter or had better grades. But I also favor socioeconomic-netural admissions. I understand and support the efforts of various colleges in trying to improve their racial diversity on campus -- but this is not an issue than can be solved on individual campuses. Education is all about money in this country, and while the public school system helps it does not cure. Poor neighborhoods have poor public schools. Their students -- black, white or green -- are less qualified to get into top schools (and can't afford them anyway), so they fight over a few low-income scholarships, but otherwise the same poor kids end up at typically poor colleges, where their education continues to suffer, their job prospects are poorer as a result and their kids end up in the same boat. Blacks and other minorities are disproportionately impacted because they are a bigger portion of that lower end of the economic spectrum. That doesn't mean this is just a race issue. When we separate quality education from wealth, we'll have a solution, and we will have true equal opportunities. Dubya was a mediocre student despite huge advantages, who managed to get into a top flight school, where he continued to be a medicore student. Why? Money, plain and simple. It had nothing to do with his white skin and everything to do with his Daddy. Wonder if Bush would support blind admissions where alumni donations had no effect on the admissions process? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:55 PM He got a Bachelor's Degree AND a Master's Degree on money alone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: artbrooks Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:01 PM Not a black-or-white (no pun intended) issue, unfortunately. It is a fact that some (but not all) minority members attend schools that are, to put it mildly, well below average. These people need, and deserve, additional assistance to get into good colleges. IMHO, this should be in the form of a tutoring program or a probationary admission, rather than the "regular" admission of an academically unprepared student who is doomed to fail. On the other hand, there are a lot of school systems that are fully integrated, in the best possible sense of the word, and minority students from these schools really should be able to compete with their peers. Is priority admission fair to the non-minority (oh, hell, let's just say white male) student who has worked his buns off in high school only to be denied admission to the university of his choice because it was necessary to make space for a less-well-prepared minority group member from his own school! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kudzuman Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:09 PM Yeah he did Kim. Probably will get a couple of Honorary Doctorates from somewhere before it's all over. Maybe for hiding his ineptitude and all his failed business ventures so well. He controls trade agreements for the country and that's scary. Every business he was in was either shady or failed miserably. Oh, hell, don't get me started! Kudzuman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 15 Jan 03 - 06:21 PM I was a mediocre student in college. Does that make me a bad person? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:14 PM The disadvantage of poverty strikes me as more fundamental, both here and over there. Get rid of it and in the process you help "black" people who are poor. Do it the other way round and you have situations where people from poor "white" families see rich kids given an extra advantage over them because they are "black", and that is the kind of thing that can generate race hate. That isn't to say that being well-off protects people who aren't "white" from coming up against racism, but there have to be different ways of trying to fight that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:36 PM Affirmative Action is not just unfair to poor white men, it is unfair to minorities, and inherently flawed. In order to make education and employment fair, the only thing that can be used as a basis for decisions is merit. Fundamental education reform, making it equally possible for students of any demographic to succeed, is the only way to eliminate racial or economic inequities, either for individuals or the entire population. Anything else is no more effective than a Band-Aid on the stump of an arm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:52 PM Reverse discrimination now, eh? Well, that warped argument did work down here in Texas. Let's see, Dubya is from Texas . . . The system is loaded against minorities in many subtle ways. Standardized tests are a classic example. And those are issued in public schools and are used for ranking students before they ever get to the university playing field. Affirmative Action was intended to level out some of the bias those tests create when it comes to college admissions. All those tests show is that white children do best on tests written by white administrators. I can't believe people aren't paying closer attention to the mess George left down here in Texas before they start promoting his cock-eyed programs on the national level. He and his out-of-the-same-cookie-cutter successor in office spent the state into a nearly $10 billion shortfall in the last legislature. There was originally a surplus when he came to office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Barry Finn Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM The Toxic Texan is riding again (remember Government on horseback, I'm back). This course of action on Affirmative Action just happens around the MLK Day. What's the message here, "I can do what I damn well please & rub it in your face while I'm doing it". The education system is in a meltdown, teacher's get squat & schools get the same & no one's bothering to even attampt to fix it (if there is a draft education or lack of it will play a role in it, who'll get the shaft on this one?). Drug compainies are swimming in quicksilver with all their new found freedoms, protections, greater control over their own trade (soon they'll replace the FDA). Meanwhile the poorer part of the country (the majority) can't decide weither to buy food or go to their dealers for meds. All this & a tax rebate to boot (buy war bonds with the huge savings) that offers the lion's share to the wealthy & to corporations while again the poorer part of the country pays a far greater percentage of the tax burden when the smoke clears (see % of taxes vs % of income). The oil companies, watch their futures soar, are depleating & killing our earth (at no coast to them, we'll pay the tab, fucked thrice, once on the cost of energy & next for mopping up their mess & last for the loss of our natural resources). If you attempt to protest against any policy you can now disappear from site without so much as a peep & who would ever know where to look for you seeing that we also just took a whipping with the Patriot Act, the new Dept. of Home Land Fencing & the illegal squandering of our rights (see the changes in our Amendments). How's your insurance company treating you lately. Rates a wee bit high, coverage a wee bit low, deductables & co-pays overwhelming? Legal compensation is capped, guess who it favors? Let's discuss the draft on 3 fronts while this lunatic (who's considered throughout the world), excepting the USA & England, as the biggest threat to world peace. That might explain the reason we're held in such high esteem or is it that we refused Canadian scientists to inspect us for weapons of mass destruction, or could it be that we just received a failing grade by world human rights organizations, or maybe it's that we're competing with 3rd world nations for the worst infant mortality rate or that we give aid to the countries with the least money, resources & the highest rate death rate. So back to Affirmative Action. Is AF just one piece of all this or is it the main issue or am I just plain crazy in thinking that Bushie has our best interests at heart no matter where the knife cuts & in the end it's all for the better, better for who? Anyone want to start a thread on foreign policy, oh shit this is part of our foreign policy. Barry, who'stryingtogoundergroundtoavoidtheshadowgoverment |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:21 PM "We thought we could do better." "Better for whom?" "Better is always worse for some." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kudzuman Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:36 PM They are probably taking names and tracking this thread and your home computer so they can whisk you off in the name of the "War on Terrorism" and you'll never be seen again. Remember the "War on Drugs"? Incredibly successful don't you think? Kudzuman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:39 PM Nice rant, Barry. And I couldn't agree with you more. Funny thing. I also started a Martin Luther King, Jr. Birthday thread here today, oh, about 10 or 12 hours ago and it hasn't gotten one hit! Hmmmmmmm, Part #573? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Amos Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:03 PM Not only that but the hypocritical sumbitch has the asinine GALL to declare a "Sanctity of Human Life" day!!! While he is filling ships at sea with warm bodies armed to the teeth preparatory to wiping out an indeterminate amount of human life on the basis of information he claims to have but won't say what is!! GOD, that man pisses me off. To be fair, on the UMinn thing, he is simply saying that their point system tips the balance on the basis of race. This is correct. UMinn did that intentionally to compensate for the bias usually found to be preoperative in minority populations in this country, with its concomitant damage to learning and self-esteem. Bush doesn't understand that at all. Why in this GREAT country of ours, a person who has low self-esteem and impossible educational gaps in his character can STILL go on the call himself President of the UNITED STATES. Now THAT's equal opportunity for ya! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: kendall Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:11 PM I simply can not stand to hear that man speak. His dis- jointed incomplete sentences are bad enough, but, he is too stupid to learn how to say NUCLEAR. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:21 PM Well, danged, Kendall! What's being able to talk got anything to do with running the world? Hunh? Answer me that one! Abd when it come down to the important stuff, he can just say "Nuke 'em!" He oughta be able to handle that! What else can you ask of a President? Bobert p.s. It really is a slap in the face to black folk to have him tell them that he wants 'em back in the cotton fields on dr. Kings birthday. That's real crass! But, hey, that's "pull-my-finger" Junior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bill D Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:01 PM it is a sad fact that some of the cleverer conservatives have learned how to manipulate money and single-issue voters 'just' enough to gain power and pack the courts and congressional committees with henchmen. Yes, it is possible to vote them out again in 2 or 4 years, but the damage they can do in the meantime is immense! I know someone high in EPA who explains that Reagan disemboweled so many programs that they will probably never recover. Environmental issues are now on back burner/low priority, and civil rights issues are heading there fast. It is tempting for some to wave the flag real hard to distract us from the fact that the gap between rich and poor is widening every day, and shows no signs of slowing. You know the story of how to cook a frog by putting it in a pot of cool water and raising the temperature very slowly until......? The Republicans are turning into pretty good frog cookers...though they seem to be thinking if the walls of the pot are high enough, they can raise the temperature faster. It sure will be an 'interesting' couple of years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:15 AM Boberet: you are so full of BS! Discrimination is wrong! It matters not whether you are Black, White, or any other color! It's wrong! And the University of Michigan is wrong to use race in it's selection process. Bush is right on this one. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Mark Clark Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:00 AM Even rules and even scoring is only fair when all participants are equally equipped and prepared. It's common in sports such as golf and bowling to assign an advantage, known as a handicap, to less skillful players in an attempt to even out the competition. No one seems to think this practice is unfair. In the case of university admisions, the disadvantage is often the result of economic discrimination that may be racially motivated but isn't just racial. Dr. King understood that discrimination is economic. If you live in poor neighborhoods where property values are lower, your public schools aren't as well funded. If your parents are both working two part time jobs just to keep you fed, you might have too much unsupervised time on your hands. We aren't going to fight poverty by telling laid-off workers they'd better find some way to earn their keep … they'll find a way but you may not like it. On the other hand, if we give disadvantaged kids a handicap such as affirmative action, and get them into universities, we may see the day when their own children no longer need the handicap. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Wolfgang Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM one of the many fine things one has to admit is the way that the Army has carried the American democratic ideal to its logical conclusion, in the sense that not only do they prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race, creed, and color, but also on the grounds of ability. (Tom Lehrer) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jan 03 - 06:30 AM Discrimination is wrong! It matters not whether you are Black, White, or any other color! It's wrong! Agreed. But is discrimination on the basis of wealth and power excluded from that Doug? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: InOBU Date: 16 Jan 03 - 06:57 AM Well... Being one of the few here who has seen what innercity education for minorities in New York City is all about, let me shine a bit of light on the subject. I do concerts for the NYC public school system, (to be cautious, though I know our English and Irish members are well informed enough to know, but just in case, public school is the opposit institution over here...) well, there is not only racial segrigation alive and well in New York, but in the ecconomically better off New York nighborhoods, this color blind system, finds a way of getting more funding into public schools where one finds the few white kids. Let me describe a typical day on one or the other side of the pale. It is late in the school year and the temps in New York are in the high nineties. I go to a public school in Oceanhill Brownsville. You can't open many of the windows which have a mesh of steal over them like a prison. Inside the building the temperature is over one hundred, and the building is packed. Teachers and students are in a daze of heat exhaustion, all execpt the principal, who has an aircondiitoned office, the only airconditioner I see. There are not enough books for each student in most subjects kids are sharing books. We meet in a huge dimly lit auditorium, no sound system, so most of the kids can hardly hear the Uillian pipes unless they are in the first few rows - though I have a loud set, they are almost lying down in the chairs as they are melting from the heat. The food is vile, the teachers for the most part are just trying to keep order in most classes, and I know if I was a kid in this hell, I would play hooky to survive. Now we go to Asher Levey school a public school in the East Village, intergrated, airconditioned, has computerlabs, a sound system in the auditorium and good engergetic teachers, a few blocks over in alphabet city the schools are more like Oceanhill Brownsville or Bed Sty. Now counting schools like Asher, the NYPS system is mostly minority, eighty or nighty percent, Black and Hispanic kids going to schools that are 99% segrigated and neglected. For any kid in those schools to get a good score on a nation wide test, it is much more of an accomplishment, than a kid who has gotten the educational advantages of say a grace church school, where in the private schools there are small classes, 9 in a class instead of 30 - 40, school pshycologists to figure out why little billy is not doing well, ... getting 20 points on an admission test is not a racial quota it is a realistic appreciation of the barrier race causes in Amerikkka. Fact is, the baby bush wants to bring back Jim Crow, plan and simple. Some of us want to live in America. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:41 AM It is late in the school year and the temps in New York are in the high nineties. ...perhaps a little drama there? I agree that it is possible for New York to have 90+ days in May, but not many. Here in KY we usually have 90+ days in July. I taught in an unairconditioned classroom that was unbearable when the temps hit 90. We've also had newspaper articles about schools without airconditioning...the principals make a point to not have it in their office. And you don't have to go to NY to see an "inner city" school system. My school qualified as such (based on a system for awarding federal money according to various demographic factors ie. single parent homes, racial minorities, subsidized lunches, etc.) I can tell my share of horror stories about guns, drugs, threats, poverty... Incidentally, this bit about standardized tests being unfair is often taken totally out of context and used in biased arguments. As most folks on this thread have noted, the problem is not race, but economics. A rich white kid has more in common with a rich black kid than with a poor white kid. Don't get me started on education issues. There are simply too many people (ALL politicians especially) who have never spent time (real time, extended time) in the classrooms we have today. Just because you were a student 30 years ago doesn't mean you have any idea what it's like today. Or even having children in the schools...as a parent I learned absolutely nothing compared to what I saw as a teacher. Our schools are a reflection of our society, and I feel very, very pessimistic about our future. Reforms are badly needed, but IMO cannot be legislated from the top-down. Here in KY the school system was declared unconsitutional...several years ago...and we're still "swimmin' in a mudhole!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:49 AM Doug: Read what Larry has so well presented and you may come away with a slightly more enlightened perspective. Also read my post on "Quotas" where I go into more details. I know it's difficult to blaze rather than follow but this are difficult times for Amercia that require courage to keep moving forward rather than retreating. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Jan 03 - 11:07 AM DougR, have you met Beccy? Both of you have a lot of pronouncements on this topic that show neither of you has actually paid attention to what the U of Michigan people are saying about their point system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 16 Jan 03 - 12:57 PM Very few people will try to argue that all school districts are equal. Most will also admit that this inequity usually follows economic lines, which are closely related to racial lines in many parts of the U.S. The problem with Affirmative Action is that it does not address the problem until it is too late to make a real difference. Most of the underqualified minority students who could only get in with Affirmative Action won't even apply to colleges. They will already have lost any faith in the educational system, and usually in government as a whole. Unless reform is applied to every stage of the educational system, it's not going to be fair or effective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:11 PM GUEST: Forum Lurker: Danged. I just finished a post of the sister (brother) thread about the Bush's "Education Reform" legislation (Haha) so I won't repeat everything. But, while you are correct in your assessment that we are not doing a very good job K-12, this is not a valid arguement for scraping the University of Michigans's admissions policies. Quite the contrary. Until we do fix the terrible inequities in the public school system, it is very imporatnt that these policies stay in place. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:24 PM I started out teaching in inner city schools. This was my way of helping less fortunate folks. I lasted 10 years. Then I left because it was either that or kill some of the political leaders in that city. I could write VOLUMES that many (most?) on this forum simply would not believe. Suffice it to say that Larry gives some insight, but his post is way too mild. It is MUCH worse that that. There were two types of teachers in the high school where I taught. One group (mainly older teachers who only wanted to survive, not teach) who had an agreement with students: Don't bother me and I won't bother you. In those classes, nothing was done. When a supervisor came in to evaluate (about once every 5-6 years) the students agreed to behave and listen for that day as long as they could go back to whatever they did the next day. There was no money for supplies. My salary was approximately the same as minimum wage, yet nearly one-third of that meager amount I spent on supplies and materials for students. Oh, yeah; the population was approximately 80 percent Black, 10 percent Mexican, 0.01 percent white, and the rest other. After the first year, several of us used to go to workshops held in the predominately white schools, just to get in classrooms and steal everything we could carry because they had so much extra and we had nothing. To go into detail about unequal treatment of students in the white vs minority schools would fill several volumes. Larry, you gave a good account DougR, you are so pro-bush that you wouldn't/couldn't recognize the truth if it hit you up 'side the head - or even lower! Been There - Done That - don't dare dwell on it now or I'd loose my sanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:29 PM
Forum Lurker, that's an awfully depressing view of things. As someone employed in one of the larger state universities in Texas I have to note that our campus has a very healthy mix of matriculated races, ages, and nationalities. This university has a lot of remedial programs in place to address these inequities, recognizing that not all students had equal opportunities to excel at their previous schools. Also, test scores often only reflect one's ability to take tests (and it isn't just minority students who shudder at the prospect of taking these tests). A passion for learning can overcome a lifetime of educational or social obstacles, if you give students a chance. We also recognize that teaching isn't limited to the classroom, and where I work in the library, anyone who wears an identification tag is expected to answer questions when asked, or if unable, find the right person who can answer it. This policy gives all of us the occasional opportunity to see it "click" for students. It's a sight to behold, when all of a sudden something that was a stuggle makes sense. It can be as dramatic as the lightbulb analogy. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM Bobert: you are so off-track! Discrimination cannot be defended regardless of color. The qualified white students at Michigan State have as much right to a superior education as those of other colors. If you don't see that, then I think you are wearing blinders. McGrath: there is nothing wrong with being rich, and there is nothing wrong with having power. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:04 PM Doug: I really didn't expect you to get it. Perhaps you need to reread many of these posts for content rather than just be waiting your turn to parrot Bush's PR crapolla. And I'd rather be *wearing* blinders than to be blind, my friend. But I still love ya' there, Dougie, even if you are a knothead at times. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:16 PM But you said you were against discrimination, Doug, and nothing involves as much discrimination as money. Ending a system by which having a lot of money and power means that your children have an enormous advantage at every stage of their education would not be easy, true enough. It would at the least mean putting an enormous amount of extra resources into the schools in poor areas, and into all kinds of other things. It'd be quite a challenge for any society to do that. But the richest country in the history of the human race could do it, if it wanted to, and if it really believed in an end to discrimination. And then the rest of the world might follow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: PeteBoom Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:23 PM Ummm.... DougR, it was the University of Michigan that is being challenged. Michigan State University has a similar policy, as do quite a few institutions of higher leraning in the States. The problem is that if they did NOT have such policies, they were accused of being racially biased against minority students based on cultural biases. Now then, having worked at one of the two Universities named above, and having a daughter who recently graduated from the other one, I'm going to throw in by tuppence. It is all well and good to aim for a diverse student population. It is also well and good to not have any quotas at all. The fact remains that both schools have "automatic admits" to the undergraduate programs - and by the way, unless I've remembered wrong, the suit was over admission to the Law School, not the undergraduate program. Along with those, there are the folks who simply are not qualified for admission - poor exam scores, low grades in high school, no "other" circumstnaces. There are also students who are admitted under controlled circumstances - that is, borderline academics, sub-par in some cases, but good athletes in the money sports. Then there are the bulk of the population. These are the folks that someone has to look hard at before admitting or rejecting. The "not qualified" folks are normally reviewed by hand (unless things have changed in the last couple of years, which I doubt) to make sure they are really not up to snuff. These reviews don't take much effort, in reality. The rest of the folks take a LONG time to review - and that is where the problem comes in. If there were really "set" hard and fast rules, there would be no need for people to soft through the information they do when making a decision. You could program a computer to make all the decisions and that would be that. It takes the human being to work on the details and to deal with the sticky stuff. Like most things, the people who take their jobs very seriously put a LOT of thought into the process. Others don't. Finally - these same Universities get regularly charged with being biased because the minority/tracked student retention rate does not always fit what some ya-hoo thinks it should be. That is, kids wash out. They don't cut it. Somehow, it is the University's fault if this happens. One of those schools name above had a hard-and-fast rule against first year undergrads having an automobile on campus. The published reason was because of the lack of parking. While this was a problem, the BIG reason was the number for students who took the car, went home and did not come back after the first major set-back. The retention rates shot WAY up after instituting the rule against cars - even though they were accused of bias by INSTITUTING the rule. Seems you can't please everyone - sometimes, ya can't please ANYONE. Cheers - Lunch is over - Pete |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Nerd Date: 16 Jan 03 - 02:39 PM Just posted this to the other thread, but here it is again with some changes brought on by further reflection and editing. DougR, I really don't think the system is anything like people imagine it to be when they argue that "equally qualified people" have "the same right" to be at a given institution. People just don't understand how admissions work in colleges. Admission is not, and never has been, only about "scholastic merit." If it were, you would not need admissions officers or interviews. All the work could be done by a computer. Every high school in the country would have a rank that ramified your GPA, then your SAT score would be plugged in, and an algorithim would decide who got in. In fact, admissions officers in good schools work very hard not to pick the people with the highest scores on everything, but to create an interesting community of smart, creative people who can learn from their differences. A certain number of people more gifted in sciences will be admitted, and a certain number more gifted in arts. A certain number of women and a certain number of men. If you play an instrument, or play a sport, you have an advantage, and if you have a certain hobby that can contribute to the campus (say, acting), or a certain perspective (say, you're a well-spoken proponent of vegetarianism, or a political activist of any persuasion) this can all count in your favor. Ethnic background is another element in this mix. It benefits both white and black students to have both communities represented, even if the black students scored lower averages. Putting together a first year class is an art, not a science. To argue that this process is unfair is silly. It never, ever has been fair, but the government doesn't step in until they see a way to promote right-wing values through political positioning. It's unfair that Johnny's hobby of stamp collecting doesn't count for as much as Jimmy's hobby of football. But you won't see Bush filing a brief hostile to sports recruiting. In a country where science education is facing increasing challenges, kids who excel in sciences are advantaged over kids who excel in arts, because there are other kinds of "quotas" too (an imprecise and misleading way to characterize this point system). A person with a GPA of 3.3 whose strongest subject is Chemistry will likely be chosen over a person with a GPA of 3.5 whose strongest subject is English. Is this fair? I think if anyone sat and thought about it for more than a second, they would realize that a peer group chosen only because they scored highest on tests and schoolwork would not necessarily provide the best environment to learn in. So other factors need to be taken into account, not only to "help out" disadvantaged people, but also to make a vibrant, intellectually challenging environment. Having white privileged kids actually meet and interact with less privileged black kids can have a major effect on the lives of both groups--sparks can fly in both good and bad senses, but it's always eye-opening! So Affirmative action does much more than help minority students, it brings the issue of racial discrimination and racial privilege to the attention of kids at an impressionable time. You can't get more educational than that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: InOBU Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM Re: "...perhaps a little drama there? " No, I assume it was late in the year, may have been early. After many many concerts they run together. I can tell you that in hot weather, no matter what the honorarium, when I get it, it is not enough for me to feel happy about the effort to go out into some of the most disadvantaged places in New York, but I go. The time that really sticks out in my mind is the one I mention above, when it was WAS over 100 in the building. I don't do well in hot weather, and I can tell you, it was horrific. It may have been early in the year, or late, but it was a heat wave and it was unhealthy. I truely believe that good people like DougR whould understand if they saw a New York Public school in Bed Sty or Ocean Hill, or Statin Island on a bad day - not the bad day for neglect, that is every day, but the days when it is a phiscal challenge to go to school, then anyone would understand. I watched one school go down hill on Statin Island. I went there every ear for almost two decades. I watched the decline of intergration and the abandonment of the system. Teachers became jaded, and joked in the teacher's lounge about kids they saw hooking after school. It was a junior high. They finally discontined the program where I would come and play music and talk about folk culture. I also, after law school would speak to the LD classes about the potential for overcoming learning disablities, though, I had a hard time believing that it was the LD that would be the big barrier for these kids. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 17 Jan 03 - 04:42 PM Nerd: you and Peter both make excellent points. I have not been involved in University "politics" and both of you have, so I bow to your knowledge. I can see where students need to be rated on more than just academic grades in High School. I can see that a diverse student body would be an advantage to the students and to the faculty. I would argue, though, that the University in question (University of Michigan)gives too much weight to genetics. Twenty out of a hundred points, in my opinion, is just too high. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 17 Jan 03 - 04:52 PM McGrath: I didn't intend to dodge the remarks you directed to me about money and power, I just forgot to address it in the previous thread. This is a subject that we will never agree on. You embrace a socialist system and I, a capitalist. I do not have a lot of money. I guess I would be considered to be middle class financially. I have no power (except over myself). I have had it in some of my jobs, but I don't miss it, don't want it; I am retired. I do not envy or feel discriminated against because I am not rich and I certainly do not feel discriminated against because I do not have power. Further, I feel no anomosity toward those who have a lot of money, and I feel the same about people who have power. Neither, in my opinion, are sinful, and neither are against the law. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Ebbie Date: 17 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM Doug, musician Buddy Tabor wrote a song that moves me and which is representative of probably a great many people in this USA. It says that his daddy worked every day of his life to support his family and rented the same house for 40 years. Never could afford his own, even though he dreamed out loud of the day that he could. His father dies, and his sister donates a space six feet by three for his burial, so that finally, his daddy owns a piece of land... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 03 - 05:57 PM I wasn't actually implying a socialist solution to the problem. A system in which large numbers of potentially useful citizens are wasted because the education system and the health system is in trouble. If it's a capitalist society, then it can come up with some capitalist solution. But the children of the poor do not get the same chances in life as the children of the rich - and that is discrimination. If it were "You can't have books in your school library because you are black" it'd be recognised as such. But when it's "You can't have books in your school library because you are poor, and your parents are poor, and your school is poor", that's discrimination too. And you don't have to be a socialist to hate that kind of thing, and to find ways of ending it. Isn't that the kind of thing "compassionate conservatism" is supposed to be about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Donuel Date: 17 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM If Bush calls it a quota system then it is a quota system. Plain and simple. If Bush says stem cells are babies that are being killed by scientists then by God we have got to put a stop to it. If Bush says that Saddam has a nuclear bomb then its high time this country wises up and sends our proud volunteer army of blacks to clean up Iraq. Our white performance enhanced pilots will be there to clear their path. If Bush says screw yourself then you are duty bound to do it. Mandatory volunteerism, secret tribunals, war, whatever it takes to make America great once again after those dark decedant Clinton years of depravity. If Bush says he is sick and tired we should take him at his word and lay off him once and for all. Disagreement is dissent, and in war - dissent is treason. So if you have a problem with Bush or this guy Jim Crow it is best you get out of here while the getting is good. This country will soon be for loyal Americans and not the sniveling drug crazed liberals that caused this country to be attacked in the first place. (its not hard to argue with people who believe all the above, but to debate ? - IMPOSSIBLE.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM If Bush says screw yourself then you are duty bound to do it. I'm reminded of this, which I heard one time, and I've no idea where it comes from. But it's always struck me a very well articulated: "Shit" said the King. And since the King's word was Law, a nation strained as one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: BlueJay Date: 18 Jan 03 - 05:06 AM Well, back to the topic of this thread. the DenverPost.com is not cooperative, so I can't provide a link, but Ruben Navarrette, Jr. did an opinion piece on 1/17 about Bush's re-nomination of judge Charles Pickering for the fifth circuit Court of Appeals. According to Navarrette, this judge argued all the way to Janet Reno for leniency for a guy who burned an eight foot cross on the home of an inter-racial couple, and then fired a few gunshots into their house for good measure. The Democratic Senate denied Pickering, but the shrub insists he is a good judge. With the present bush-surgeon-hero majority of Congress. it looks like he'll get confirmed. How any judge, regardless of political party could condone leniency for a guy burning a cross and firing gunshots into a house with innocent adults AND CHILDREN inside is beyond me. That Bush thinks that this is "his type of judge" doesn't surprise me at all. If any of you "conservatives" can explain how this is all good for minorities, I'd be grateful. Thanks, BlueJay |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Deda Date: 18 Jan 03 - 06:07 PM I heard on PBS the other night that Dubya was rejected as an applicant to the University of Texas (Austin?) the very same year that he was accepted into Harvard Business School. I guess the Bush name has more pull at Harvard than at UT. Good for UT. This is called a "legacy admission" -- where you get in because Daddy and Daddy's Daddy are good check-writing alumni. As someone said earlier, affirmative action for the rich. Maybe it should be called Negative action. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 18 Jan 03 - 09:17 PM It's okay, Donuel. It's okay. McGrath. It's okay, Deda, BlueJay, Ebbie, and others. After spending my day in bitter subfreezing temperatures marching against Bush's thirst for blood, for Bush's vision for America with another couple hundred (at least) folks it has become very clear to me that Bush *can not* win. Sure, lots of minorities will suffer from governemnt supported discrimination. And minorites and poor whites will be sacrificed to Bush's thrist for power with their blood and lives. But when the light comes on these people will unite and use the weapons of boycott and national strike to bring down Boss Hog and all his Enron pals. So, I'm kinda hoping that Bush just continues to pour on his right wing, ruling class crapola so that he and his anti-human values will be exposed for what they are. Yeah, we need to get these folks in the rear view mirror so that we can go back to what we used to do: try to find fairness in our little experiement. Yeah, we need for white kids to look around their classes and wonder what the leaders did.m These kids *know* the deal. Yeah, there maybe a few squeaky white kids who will bring suit to further their parent's agendas but the majority will prevail. Segregation is not progress! And any thing that disrupts our sincere attempts to make a better country is not progress... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:54 PM It's not just economic disadvantages, it's race, or at least the idea of race. Whatever else is on a resume, whatever experience or qualifications, in the U.S. a black-sounding name will get many fewer call-backs. That's how it is whatever any one cares to think, whatever pet theory or lofty-sounding ideal.So what if trying to balance this involves racial discrimination--so what? Is it tainting our cultural purity on that score? Suddenly everything is ideal except for the unfair advantages that minorities have? It would be a good idea to just shut up with that garbage, it insults the intelligence of everyone anywhere near it. Bush is wrong. He'll fail, but do harm while he's at it. It's all right that our system elected him for a term; the fact that most people who voted weren't behind him will undo him, all the more, the more he ignores it. I'm still exhausted from trying to be respectful of ideas I don't really respect, on some other threads. It wasn't worth it, wish I'd just said what I really think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Ebbie Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:30 PM Fred, despite your politeness in those other threads, I think your message came through clearly to most of us, and kind of confused the others. Well done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:51 PM True enough, at any economic level a black kid is likely to be at a disadvantage against a white kid in a country with that kind of racism (such as the USA and teh UK). But regardless of colour, a poor kid is likely to be at a disadvantage compared to a kid from a comnfortably off family. It seems to me that, since there's a disproportionately high number of kids who are both poor and black, tackling it at that level makes sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Greg F. Date: 19 Jan 03 - 06:25 PM Ok, its time for someone to sue Yale for admitting George Dumbya Bush. There were plenty of applicants his year with higher marks and better academic records than his; he was given preferential treatment because he was a rich white kid whose father had gone to Yale, and made contributions to the Alumni Fund. This sort of right-wing hypocrisy is pretty sickening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 20 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM Thanks Ebbie, don't think I was really polite, was just trying to chase down some conservative ideas to their roots, which turned out to be impenetrable to my liberal pea-brain. What a bottomless sequence of false-bottoms. Gave up, frustrated. McGrath, I suppose it does make sense to view it that way, for the long run. I don't suppose it can make perfect sense, anyhow, since AA is just a corrective measure, and ideally it wouldn't be necesary at all. What gets me is the cynical pretence to that ideal, when it is simply not the case. Sure, get rid of AA and we'll be color-blind, things will go back to being fair, like they were, you know, before AA. Many points conservatives make, and those that conservative mudcats have made recently, always seem to me to come to this same goofy proposition. Let's pretend. And if you don't care to, you're a spoilsport, closed-minded, a fashionable liberal elitest. I can respect conservatives as people, I'm pretty sure they are almost all better people than say, me. But I can't respect pretentious crackpot ideas that all seem tailored to make me feel better about myself and my life, if I'd put them on. I'd rather keep a clear head as best I can, however much I may fail an ideal life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:21 PM Bobert: I looked at the TV until I just couldn't do it anymore, but I couldn't find you among the hundreds of thousands of marchers. I tried to summon a bit of sympathy for you because of the bitter cold, but then I was reminded that you are doing what you feel is right, and that you wanted to be there. I thought coverage of the protests was pretty good myself. But as to the topic at hand. Racial diversity and the University of Michigan. Most posters agree with you, Bobert, and I'm sure you find some solace in that. However, (not to burst your baloon) there was an article in my newspaper today written by Jay Jacoby of The Boston Globe, that the majority of the people in the U. S. disagree with that POV. It was reported in the Washington Post (hardly a bastion of conservatism)that "in a nationwide poll respondents overwhelmingly opposed racial preferences. That view cut across groups: 86% of blacks, 94% of whites, 88% of hispanics, and 84 percent of Asians agreed that college admissions (as well as hiring and contracting) "should be based strictly on merit and qualifications other than race or ethnicity." I would provide a Blue Clicky, and tried, but dumb old me didn't succeed. The title of the article, should any be curious enough to read it online is, "The fig leaf of diversity." DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:37 PM DougR - in the language of logic, you have just promulgated the "argumentum ad populum" fallacy. Even if your statistics are correct, they have zero bearing on the discussion of what is right or wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:43 PM And is it not the case that Bush got to Yale through Affirmative Action for the Rich and Privileged? And is that kind of discrimination really acceptable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 20 Jan 03 - 01:52 PM Yale University (the last I heard)is a private school and can use any criteria it chooses I believe. The same is the case with The Master's Golf tournament which some women are raving so much about. Private means private. GUEST: are you challenging the poll? If so, take your argument to the Washington Post for conducting it, or to the Boston Globe for allowing the writer to quote it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jan 03 - 03:44 PM Statistics and polls are for loosers and manipulators, Doug. It's all in the wording. Some words sound just wonderful but when you strip off the sugarcoating there's nothing more that what my dog leaves in my neigbor's yard every morning. Heck, if worded just right, I'd bet that a clever pollster could get 80% of the American people to admit to having had sex with a farm animal, yourself included. Gotta be real suspicious of polls these days especially now that so many of the working classes' tax buck are being spent on PR firms to manipulate public opinion. And a great way to do that is to twist words around so that people don't have a clue what they're agreeing to. And it's not just the ordinary folks either. In 1996 4 FCC regulations were dropped from the original 1932 codes and after the fact many Senators say they didn't have a clue what they were even voting on. So don't be too danged quick to jump on polls, Dougie. You'll note that I don't use poll numbers in my posts, no matter how well they may support one of my arguments, for this very reason. Garbage in, garbage out... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 20 Jan 03 - 03:50 PM DougR, I think Guest was not challenging the poll, but it's significance in terms of whether it's the right thing to do or not. Saying we want college admissions based soley on merit is a little like saying we don't want the government messing with our social security. Professional educators know that their means and tests for predicting academic success are flawed and flukey, and they can, do, and will make those judgements based on other factors, polls notwithstanding. And they should. It's certainly not illegal to be wealthy, and even if it were, one could probably still hire some lawyers or make a deal. Whether it's a sin--well, there are vows of poverty, there are different Christian interpretations of the camel going through a needle. Some say it's a mistranslation and that "camel" referred to a kind of twine, still hard to thread, but maybe not as outlandish. And I suppose they might have had bigger eyelets in needles back then, it might not be all that hard. In fact, one begins to wonder why the scriptre even mentioned it, since it comes to almost nothing, and one needn't worry about it. It probably really meant it will be darned easy for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven, if you really think about it. DougR, guy, you never seem to want to address the moral heart of a question, just the rules of the game. Do you think it's okay that minorities are very often passed over because of their race? Do you? Do you think it's okay that if your name is J'taziah it often won't matter much what your grades and experience happen to be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM Not challenging the poll...challenging your use of it as evidence that affirmative action is wrong. The definiton of argumentum ad populum is: a proposition is held to be true because it is widely held to be true by some (usually upper crust) sector of the population. Let's assume the poll is 100% accurate - it doesn't prove that Bush is right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:11 PM Yale University (the last I heard)is a private school and can use any criteria it chooses So if Yale University decided to institute a policy of discriminating against all Black people or Jews, and denying them admission, that would be legal, just because it is private? If that is true I am appalled. I truly hadn't realised America was like that. If any one had told me that my first asumotion would have been that it was an pretty unsavoury anti-American libel. Until you confirm that it is true I will refuse to believe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:21 PM Bobert: you belive in polls well enough when they support YOUR point of view. Guest: How would you read the results of the poll? Fred: Do we WANT government to be "messing" with our Social Security? If so, why has there been such a hue and cry that GWB wants to change the system so that younger workers can gain more from their SS when they retire? No, I do not think it is okay that minorities are passed over because of their race. Neither do I think it is okay for majorities to be passed over because of their race. That's discrimination. Read one of my earliest posts on this thread (I think it was in reply to Bobert's first post)and you will see how I feel about that. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 20 Jan 03 - 04:48 PM Doug: Find me one post out of the 2300 posts I have made where I have referred to any poll? You won't find even one. Like I say, polls are for looser and manipulators. I stick with ideas, observations and morals, thank you. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:02 PM Once again, is it really legal under the US constitution for a "private school" to determine its own criteria for admission, regardless of how discrimininatory these may be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Deda Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:28 PM Theoretically, a school that does not accept any federal funds can indeed exclude people using whatever criteria it chooses. All major universities in the US, Yale included, DO accept federal funds and therefore are constrained from excluding people on the basis of race, religion or national origin. At least that's my understanding. The federal monies available to institutes of higher learning are so hard to resist that almost all colleges and universities accept the restraints along with the money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:37 PM Depends, Kevin. Sometimes yes and sometimes no, depending on what the courts say in a given situation. In general, yes, a private organization can do pretty much whatever the hell they want, but can't receive government funding/tax dollars if what they do violates civil rights. Free speech doesn't mean you're gonna like like everything you hear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:41 PM I'm confused here. I thought that discriminating against people because of their "race" and so forth was unconstitutional and illegal in the USA. Is it really the case that that only applies to facilities funded by the government? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:43 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:46 PM Kevin, on this side of the pond schools operated by the religious right openly descriminate and are allowed to do so because they accept no federal funds. But as you and others have said: just because it's "legal" don't mean its right. And this "faith based" education is held up by the Bushies as a model to be supported by 'school vouchers'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 03 - 05:50 PM That last post of mine meant I was speechless. I really don't think most people outside America realise that is the case, if it is the case. I'd have thought it's the kind of thing that people who want to encourage others to hate America would have been trumpetting at the tops of their voices. I though that kind of thing was dead and gone, or survived on the quiet in squalid little corners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 20 Jan 03 - 06:10 PM Here's why, Kevin -- ------- Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. ------- If you say that discrimination is part of your religion, you are protected under the first amendment, even if it violates other laws. (However, prohibitions against physical harassment, etc. are deemed to be higher laws.) Beyond the right to vote, there are no protections in the Consitution based on race or gender. Sometimes the Equal Protection clause is cited: ------- Amendment XIV Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. ------- But this doesn't really protect rights, it only requires that a state cannot take them away if federal law gives them. The Equal Rights Amendment was never passed. In other words, if the US Congress passes law tomorrow saying women cannot hold jobs, it's perfectly Constitutional, but the state of say, Alaska, can't do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 20 Jan 03 - 06:14 PM P.S. Most people inside the US don't understand it either. Heck, most of them think the Equal Rights Amendment is a reality. Wish it were. So while laws exist that make many things related to discrimination legal or illegal, it isn't constitutionally protected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 03 - 06:38 PM Well, that's very sad indeed. I'd have thought that fighting for an Equal Rights Amendment, if thats what ittakes to outlaw discrimination would be the kind of thing that would unite all decent Americaqns, whether they saw themselves as liberals or conservatives. As Doug put it: "! Discrimination is wrong! It matters not whether you are Black, White, or any other color! It's wrong!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 20 Jan 03 - 06:44 PM DougR, point is, government will be messing with our ss regardless, in one way or another, since it's a government system. People polled can favour admissions based on merit alone, but they are not going to get it, AA or not. We have no tests which can measure people, or predict the future. Many people suppose we do, or should, but we don't, so we make value judgements, guesses, and when we test those value judgements and guesses, they turn out to have been skewed by race. So you don't believe minorities should be passed over--then either you believe they aren't, which is wrong, in point of fact, or that nothing should or can be done about it. Which I think is wrong, although what can be done does have some side-effects. It's not ideal. I think the poll reflects a feeling that there should not be artificial interference in a supposedly natural and regular process of selection, but the process is both artificial, anyhow, and unreliable and screwy, on top of that. Popular sentiment reflects that we wish it was just fair and made sense. Sure, I do too. In the meantime, we have to deal with the mess we have. And the horse it rode in on. I don't care if Bush got into Yale--at my old school they taught you to speak english. And it cost much less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:06 PM I agree, Kevin. The Equal Rights Amendment has never happened because it's *really* difficult to change the Constitution (as it should be.) In today's modern era or mass communications, it requires a huge amount of concensus of the populace to make it happen. Fundamentally, many Americans take these rights for granted, so they feel there is no need for the ERA. I was really just a kid back in the day of the big push for the ERA, but in retrospect I think that the proponents failed to make people realize how shaky those rights they take for granted are -- any law passed by Congress can be repealed. It's not the same thing as a "right" guarenteed by the Constitution. I think a lot of people perceived it as those "damn feminists" trying to get special priviledges. Funny, a recent pro-AA article I read was quoting statistics on wages, and complaining how black people are paid much less than white people. True -- but the same statistics showed white women being paid substantially less than black men, with black women lagging even further behind. Quite sad, really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:35 PM And, Dougie, in case you have forgotten my earlier observation. All wealth is created by *labor*. God did not plunk down i cent worth of *wealth* when He created this little experiement. Not one cent's worth of wealth. Just raw resources and labor. Now I know you don't like to think that you owe anyone anything but you and every other SAmerican owes *labor* *everytyhing*. The infastructure that has brought so much wealth to you and others has been disporportionatley created by minorities. Now, it's time to start cutting the pie and you and Bush still want the same share that your guys have always taken. Something wrong here, mt friend. Very wrong. And when our government recognized this inequity a generation ago and set up a few things that barely addresed this issue it did so becasue it recognized that the pie needed to be split more fairly. There were two chioces. Reparations or opportunity. They chose opportunity. Would you rather have had them pay reparations? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:53 PM Bobbieert: watch it, your socialist streak is showing! :>) Fred: please read McGrath's last post. He quoted me correctly, and that is what I believe. It may not be politically correct (as evidenced by so many posters who do not agree with me) but that is it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 21 Jan 03 - 12:26 AM GUEST, wealth is a purely artificial concept adopted to make it possible for goods or services to be exchanged. Whatever a society agrees about wealth is as valid as the basic concept itself. Further, the concept of resources as a finite "pie," such that one can only increase one's share by depriving another, has been almost universally discarded in favor of cooperative economic theory. By the way, who is "they" that chose opportunity, and in what sense? Pronouns only work once a noun has been identified. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:31 AM wealth is a purely artificial concept adopted to make it possible for goods or services to be exchanged No, that's money, which isn't the same thing. Actually when we say "discrimination is wrong" we are using a sort of shorthand, because in certain context of course it is perfectly right and necessary to discriminate - food, clothes, music. Some word such as "unfair" is implied or some phrase such as "on the basis of etc" - and quite what is icluded in that "etc" is the important thing, on which quarrels and even wars have been founded. I would say that to discriminate on the basis of wealth or poverty is totally wrong (and that has certain implications for how society should be organised); I take it that Doug would see that kind of discrimination as acceptable. Tbe reality is that in both our societies there is an enormous amount of discrimination on the basis of wealth and poverty. If anything it is growing almost exponentially. There had been a kind of consensus that there should be some limit on this, but this seems to be fading away. We appear to be heading into some kind of quasi-Roman epoch, and I see this as a nightmare. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 21 Jan 03 - 09:58 AM DougR, I read you the first time, I heard you, you have a dream, okay, got it. And you heard me. You're still evading the question of what if anything we should do about discrimination on the basis of race which does exist, which AA is a measure to counterbalance. Regardless of your pie-in-the-sky liberal utopian fantasy there Doug R, there's a way things are. You already heard me, and know this, but repeat a platitude, which seems perfectly cynical. Makes one wonder if you somehow manage to think you do believe in it, or if merely employ it. I don't care to guess, or go round in circles again. No offense, maybe you can see how I can't take you seriously. I honestly don't know why I get drawn into pointless lines of inquiry, trying to understand people who aren't trying to be understood. I personally have more respect for a simple honest bigot--it's a mistake people make, it's not so easy to know better, after all--than anyone who supports real-life inequities in the name of a grand vision of equality. That's a very special talent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 21 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM All of us are People. If Race doesn't matter, if Class doesn't matter, then let's Stop Making It Matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Don Firth Date: 21 Jan 03 - 01:10 PM Fundamental U. S. Legal philosophy (principles ofttimes forgotten):-- 1. An individual citizen may do anything he or she wishes unless it is specifically forbidden by the law. 2. The government is permitted to do only that which is explicitly permitted by the Constitution. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 03 - 01:18 PM A Consitution is not Holy Writ, it's a codification of what the people agree should be the case, and like any human document it gets it wrong from time to time, or isn't adequate to meet unforseeen circumstances, and has to be changed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Don Firth Date: 21 Jan 03 - 01:40 PM Of course, the U. S. Constitution anticipates that. I contains a provision for being amended. But, for obvious reasons, it's a long and tedious process, not to be undertaken lightly. The Constitution makes a remarkably good attempt, but other than that, I find that there is little relationship between ethics and law. Peculiar. One would think otherwise. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jan 03 - 03:03 PM GUEST: forum lurker: I believe you have confused *money* with *waelth*. "Money" is, as you say, "purely artificial concept to make it possible for ggods or services to be exchanged. Wealth, on the other hand, according to Webster's II University Dictionary is an "abundance of valuable possessions or resources". Now where do the "possessions" come from? Labor of man. And "resources"? From the Earth. As for the "they", if you will read the paragraph preceeding my statement, you'll find that the *subject* is identied. The governemnt. And again, while my tax dollars are being spent for PR firms to find atractive buzz words to spoon feed the masses, who really don't have a clue what they are *parroting*, is obscene, offensive and suspicious. Why can't Bush just come out and say. "Hey, I got mine. Now you go get yours!" That is what is at issue here. The buzz words are just *smoke and mirrors*. Like Fred said: "I have more respect for a simple honest bigot...". I agree. So did Representative Watts, who came to realize that being the Republican black poster boy, that this party in particular can "talk the talk" but can't "walk the walk". Now I'mmnot standing up for theDemocratic Party here but there ain't not doubt about the intentions of this Republican administration. They are endebted to some rather right winged Boss Hog types who *expect* a return on their investment and Junior is doing exactly what he's is expected to do. Follow orders from above... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 21 Jan 03 - 04:08 PM Kim C, if we just Capitalize the Things we Say about Class and Race, how can Injustice Stand? I give. I'm just glad that someone has found the political courage to set about freeing the white man from all this rampant discrimination. It gives me hope to dream that one day, in this nation, the land of the free, a white man, a man of my people, could even be elected president. Even a white man, maybe, with no great intelligence, culture, or depth of vision. You may scoff, say it can't happen, but in my heart I know I'll see it a reality. This just gets funnier. AA or none, one way or another, I'm convinced something stupid in this country is going to die a farcical fat whiny-ass death, kicking, screaming, grabbing at straws, bawling vain nonsense and acting pathetic. Short or long, it will be fun to watch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:01 PM It has all ready begun, Fred. It's just that when one has achieved such a high degree of stupidity, one doesn't even have the smarts to know that he's on his way out the door. Unfortunately, lots of folks may get killed in the eviction process and there's gonna be one heck of a mess to clean up after he's gone... Bye, bye, Bushie. Don't let the door hit ya' on the way out... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:06 PM Fred: I admit that I have some difficulty following your logic. Perhaps it is because I have sleep Apenia. I don't see how I could possibly make my position any more clear. McGrath understands it even if he doesn't agree with it. I'll try again. I oppose the University of Michigan's admission policies because I believe the give TOO MUCH WEIGHT to race in their criteria! Twenty out of one hundred points, IN MY OPINION, is TOO MUCH! I think it is wrong to discriminate on the basis of race, creed, or color! That includes us white folks, as well as those of other colors. I do not think it is bad to be rich. There are bad rich people, but there are bad poor people too. If I won the lottery, I would not return the money to the state (except the amount I would be required to retun in taxes). I will refrain from replying to the parts of your message that I find offensive. If that isn't clear, I give up. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:25 PM You wouldn't give the money to the state Doug, and nor would I, they just spend it on stuff like bombs and stuff like that; but I doubt if you'd feel happy if you kept it all for yourself, and I doubt if you would do that. I don't think any decent person would, and that's one of my definitions of what makes up a decent person. Being rich may not be bad, but the Christian Gospel seem pretty clear about it being a pretty dangerous thing: "It is easier for a camel to pass thtrough the eye of a need;le than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:29 PM I think that has to do more with a rich man who's made an idol of his wealth and possessions. I don't think all rich people are going to hell, just because they're rich. I believe God grants grace and salvation to rich people, too. Except for Ted Turner. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:33 PM I agree it's unfortunate. It's probably also unfortunate that I'm being an asshole on your thread here Bobert. I'm not proud of it, I do feel bad about it, but not as bad as I feel when I pretend to see a point I really don't see. I can see minorities opposing AA, but think it's putting pride before wisdom. I can see people saying it perpetuates racial resentment, but I think there'd be resentment anyway. You're in! Welcome to the world of petty resentment! So excuse me for venting the disgust I've felt so many times at hearing "I can't get a job teaching painting cause they only want to hire minorities"! God. The source of my smug, maybe un-called-for tone is all the times I never said: Grow up. Who told you to major in art, and expect to get a job? You aren't that good. Sue somebody you whiny pampered maggot. In the recent cultural memory of slavery, this is a great injustice! I don't see the other side of this question, though I could trot it out, mimic it, I've heard it a lot. It doesn't make sense to me, and I feel embarrassed for people who say it in earnest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:37 PM Best way of ensuring that you don't make an idol of your riches is, you spread them around. Of course that means you aren't rich any more, but surely that's all to the good? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Ebbie Date: 21 Jan 03 - 05:53 PM "I believe the give TOO MUCH WEIGHT to race in their criteria! Twenty out of one hundred points, IN MY OPINION, is TOO MUCH!" Would you go for 15 points, Doug? Two points? Or do you really think that race is the only thing that should be left out of the equation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 21 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM Fred, I understand your point of view, but I don't believe it solves one injustice to perpetuate another system of injustice. Simply put, Affirmative Actions says if we screw over some poor white folks occassionally, that makes it okay to screw over poor black folks the rest of the time. We aren't going to achieve parity in society by continuing to rely on racial lines. I personally cannot reconcile Affirmative Action with my sense of what is just and ethical. Others, like you, feel that the "good" injustice (helping a member of a historically disadvantaged race) outweighs the "bad" injustice (harming a member of a race which is not historically disadvantaged). Sorry to hear you feel "embarrassed" for me. But thinking that Affirmative Action is a wrong method, does not mean that one thinks that "nothing should be done." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:04 PM Yeah, Nicole. Like what? And when? And what do we do with the generation of folks who will slip thru the cracks while you get your system up and running? Just curious... Fred: Hey, go for it. It's not like the race card has not been played here and will be replayed and replayed over the next few months before the Supreme Court kills AA with the same 5 justices voting to kill it who selected Bush as President. And you can take that to the bank! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: harpgirl Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:17 PM Do you know the complete formula for admissions weighting, Doug? If you don't then you can't possibly have an informed opinion; your opinion would then be knee-jerk support of the pretender! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:27 PM Harpgirl: Don't get Dougie all confused with facts. He doesn't do well with 'em... Just get's the poor boy all tangled up... But, ya got to admit that fir a complet knothead, he is kinda likeable... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:52 PM Bobert, they're slipping through the cracks anyway. So handful of extra blacks get into college -- and that solves... ??? Are any big race issues really getting fixed by Affirmative Action? Since Affirmative Action began, if you look at the economic figures, black people are no better off than they were before. As a social solution, I don't think it works and I don't think it solves a darn thing. The U of Michigan can racially balance their campus all they want, but is it really sending more black kids to college? Or does it just send the ones that could afford it anyway to the U of Michigan? Meanwhile we perpetuate a system that causes as much injustice as it solves, stirs up resentment among those poor whites who should have the most common cause with poor blacks, is endless fodder for racists to "prove" that blacks have it so easy that we don't NEED to do anything else, and most of all continues to divide, divide, divide by the color bar. If we Affirmative Action everything into racial balances equal to the population, will that end racism? Or will it make it worse by dummying down the system so far for blacks that no one bothers to fix the inequities that make the special considerations necessary in the first place? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: harpgirl Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:55 PM I receive two publications from UofM on a regular basis. The current LSA magazine does not address the race issue in admissions. But Lee C. Bollinger is quoted in this week's Newsweek which has several good articles on the issue at hand. (The current president of UofM is Mary Sue Coleman, BTW) He says, "there are many misperceptions about how race and ethnicity are considered in college admisions. Competitive colleges and universities are always looking for a mix of students with different experiences and backgrounds--academic, geographic, international, socioeconomic, athletic, public service oriented and yes, racial and ethnic." He goes on to say," The simple fact about the Michigan undergraduate policy is that it gives overwhelming weight to traditional academic factors--some 110 out of a total of 150 points. After that, there are some 40 points left for other factors, of which 20 can be allocated for race or socioeconomic status. " He goes on to talk about the segregation of Detroit and the fact that the majority of students who arrive on Michigan's campus are from virtually all-white or all-black high schools....and that their first experience in integrated living is on Michigan's campus. He believes it is vital and that diversity is an essental element to a well-rounded education. Anyway, I sure as hell wouldn't have wanted someone like the fella that wrote "the Emperor of Ocean Park" as a roommate. Too much like all the other people I grew up knowing.... (had to throw in the harpy bombast, right?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: harpgirl Date: 21 Jan 03 - 07:57 PM The point system is on page 34-35 of this week's Newsweek, Dougie... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: harpgirl Date: 21 Jan 03 - 08:02 PM oh, and yes a scholarship athlete can be awarded twenty points. Now what do you think about that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Troll Date: 21 Jan 03 - 08:26 PM How would some of you feel about the fact that Mich, also gives 20 points to, among others, athletes?. It is my feeling that everything shoukd be ability based and that race and gender should be deleted from all applications of any kind. Let an applicant stand on his or her own merits with no advantage OR disadvantage attached because of status or accident of birth. I have been the victim(?) of discrimination on several ocassions in the job market. Ever heard the term "over-qualified"? Been there. Several times. I was denied a job once for which I was FULLY qualified, degree AND experience. The reason I was given was that they had lost funding for the position. Two weeks later they hired a female minority who had almost no qualifications or experience. Others had to do her work until they could finally get her trained. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: harpgirl Date: 21 Jan 03 - 08:36 PM You can't get twenty points for both, Jon.That category is at the end and requires a choice of one out of the following: 20 socioeconomic disadvantage 20 underrepresented racial/ethnic minority identification or education 5 men in nursing 20 scholarship athlete 20 provost's discretion The entire forty includes: Geography Alumni Essay Personal achievement Leadership and service The rest are academic 110. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: harpgirl Date: 21 Jan 03 - 08:39 PM If you delete race and gender, most schools would have mainly women and no money....that wouldn't work. Don't get me started about white males being discriminated against. That really gets me mad!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 21 Jan 03 - 09:48 PM Nicole: Not to beat a dead horse but, ahhh, your alternatives? You have never been one to shy away from ideas so I'm real interested in what you have to replace AA? And yes, I'm still your not-so-secret admirer. Just waitin' for you to get cranked up with something fresh to replace AA so that the US won't take large strides toward segregation, discrimination and cotton pickin... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 21 Jan 03 - 10:12 PM See detailed post in the *other* thread on this subject on education, Bobert. I'm not typing all that again *whew!* But while I'm on the topic, financial aid is a JOKE in this country anymore, and college tuition is soaring ever higher. The new tax deductions for adults who go back to school are a nice step in the right direction, but not nearly enough. What good is affirmative action if you can't afford to go anyway? In the interim, we can give a big leg up while helping out other national issues. Nurses, doctors, medical assistants, social workers and teachers are all desperately needed, among others -- positions which could be filled by offering steep financial aid to interested students of any color. It's win-win for everyone involved. And if you can get big help for college for joining the military, shouldn't there be more incentives for other social needs that don't involve killing? Performing vital work in the community like building parks, cleaning up trash, playing music in nursing home (;-))and -- HEY! fixing up rundown schools! -- should be as deserving of both the time commitment in school and the perks as ROTC. Thanks for posting that info harpgirl. When put altogether, even if U of Mich looses, "socioeconomic disadvantage" pretty much covers the whole territory, doesn't it? It covers most blacks or other minorities from disadvantaged backgrounds, while not excluding whites from the same background. So why is race awarded extra points if it's covered elsewhere? The admissions officers would still have plenty of leeway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 22 Jan 03 - 01:42 AM Harpgirl: I think it's a bit presumptious for you to criticize what I think. My thoughts and beliefs are my own. You don't have to agree with them, but I do have a right to them, right or wrong. On the subject of points. I think 20 points for athletics is too much too! However the point system you printed from Newsweek (I presume)also includes points for "Alumni." Surely you, and others so critical of GWB because he got into Yale because his father was alumnus, do not believe it is fair of the University of Michigan to include it in theirs also...is so? How many points would I assign? Maybe five. I would still rather see it based on ability rather than accident of birth though. I think Nicole makes a good point (if I read her right). There are some poor white young people who have been disadvantaged as much as a member of a minority (perhaps even more)and could be deprived of that good education simply because they were born of white parents. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 22 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM DougR, sorry for those things that offended you, I have a juvenile smart-ass streak. I don't understand your logic either. I didn't mean to imply I think all rich people are going to hell, just that Christian theology raises questions about it. NicoleC I don't feel sorry for you, but you've made the first case for opposing AA that doesn't sound completely fatuous to me. To argue against it in the name of equality seems fatuous unless one directs some further consideration as to how this equality is going to actually play out. One can reasonably argue that AA is a crude solution, is not ideal, has unwanted side-effects. I'm not convinced there's something better at hand that is going to actually get off the ground anytime soon, that it's time yet to set AA aside, or that helping the blacks who can afford it go to college is such a negligible result. I still think I could make a much stronger case against AA than you have, and yet as a practical matter I support it. Sure, it doesn't solve everything for everyone. It hasn't eradicated the problems of the poor who aren't minorities. It wasn't meant to, and when you know how to do that, please don't type it all out, just actually do it, okay? A theory of a program that won't happen might not be better than the little good we can actually do. A better question to ask about AA is whether more blacks went to college than would have without it. The "dumbed-down" remark--there's no getting loose of this popular myth that we really know how to measure human merit, it's like the scarey guy in the horror movie that comes back no matter how many times you kill it. If it weren't for legislation to adjust I.Q. tests, women would still be less intelligent than men. They simply changed the questions. It's a mistake to over-weigh the merit tests, because they too can have inherent biases. I'm a white guy. It may be my point of view is tilted by that. I think maybe it should be. The cries of two wrongs don't make a right seem laughable to me--you can't compare it, really. Come on--seriously. Two "systems of discrimination"--for crying out loud, is there no proportion in things? Let's pretend that if we get rid of AA things will be fair, or fairer, that all the poor whites will go to college, without dumbing things down. (Apparently that's just for blacks.) How, exactly? That's what gets me. There has to be a saner way to discuss things. I'm right to make fun of that implication, and really you've just dressed it up to sound more repectable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 22 Jan 03 - 10:15 AM The other thing is.... you can't admit people to colleges, or hire them for jobs, if they don't apply in the first place. I used to work in an ice cream store when I was in college. We had a mostly white crew, in spite of being near a largely black neighborhood, and between two colleges. The reason? Most of the people who applied to work there were white. If institutions want to vary their racial diversity, then first they have to appeal to minorities to apply. Then there are schools like Fisk University, who are quite happy to be mostly black, thank you very much. They don't want to increase their diversity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Jan 03 - 10:26 AM Very interesting reading. Despite a very impressive post by Nerd my basic sympathies are with Nicole's position. Affirmative action in my eyes is at best a crutch for a short period. And it takes the pressure away from both sides. A black student/pupil may say to herself 'I'm already good enough with my B. Together with the twenty points I'm on the safe side.' And the white community/government might think 'Look, why should we invest all that money necessary to level the field. Let's go the cheap way and just award them 20 points and go on with the present politics.' In Germany, the main issue is gender, of course. We have now near to perfect laws to ensure that women have at least equal (and in theory: better) opportunities to get a (state paid) job (in practice, that just means it involves a bit more of paper work if you want to hire a man instead of a woman also applying). That was the action that did not cost any money except for the printing of the law. Anything which really would change the situation was avoided due to the costs involved: No good support for women/families with a baby, no whole-day nurseries to allow women to work even with a small child, no real incentive for men to stay home for a while, no compensation for the loss of pension for family care time (for instance, I shall loose some percent of my pension for staying home with my young child, same as my wife will),... The financial risk of pregnancy time-out is still fully with the employer. Women are still considered a risk to hire in too many positions. A part of that 'risk' rests only in the (male) employers' perception, another part is real. To lower that risk costs money. Our governments prefer to produce affirmative action laws that cost nothing and can be changed quickly if needed. I end with a short true story which shows that colour/gender/etc blind selection can have unforseen positive consequences. The Munich philharmonists were a male only orchestra. As it happened, the members of the orchestra always selected male applicants for the free positions. They just 'were the best'. Then someone had the idea that the unnamed applicants played behind a curtain so that no prejudices (like I know him and like him) could influence the selection. That was the first time a woman was selected. They did the curtain procedure once more and that was the second time a woman was selected. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: harpgirl Date: 22 Jan 03 - 10:55 AM Dougie...I agree, I shouldn't criticize your position as much as disagree with it. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings! I do think you tend to agree automatically with everything Bush says and does, though. As for legacies, I think they are weighted at less than five but I don't have the magazine in front of me as I am at the orifice and wasting time I told my therapist I would stop wasting instead of complaining about not having enough time to do everyhting! Should legacies be eliminated as a category? I don't know. I wouldn't eliminate gender as a criteria either, because I am in favor of diversity in working and school situations and I think that it is a very sensible goal. How else can we learn to get along and help everyone to gain access to the gifts our socioeconomic system has given us? I don't have answers but I am in favor of Affirmative Action at the moment. The UofM system is mostly based on ability. 110 of 150 points are based on academics and how your curriculum and high school is rated. Males in nursing get one more point than legacies I believe, so what do you think about that? Affirmative Action but I am still of the belief that it is too early to stop using Affirmative Action. However, since Hispanics have surpassed blacks as the countries largest minority, one would expect that more Hispanics would benefit from Affirmative Action than other minorities (notably blacks) at this point. hg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 22 Jan 03 - 02:04 PM Fred, when I say "dumbing down" the system for minorities, I am referring to the criteria, not the people themselves, black or otherwise. If the vast majority of blacks do worst than the vast majority of whites on arbitrary criteria like SAT's, then there is obviously a problem with the tests or a problem with the preparation for the test. We can fix the problem, or we can continue to patch it up. What makes more sense? Continue sending ill-prepared minority students to college, or prepare them properly to compete for admission to any school, whether it uses Affirmative Action or not? I think it is ironic that if U of Mich had a student body of 30% blacks, and they were giving extra points to white students to racially balance the school in proportion to the population, many of the people that support Affirmative Action would be whining that the U of Mich was being racist by taking opportunities away from blacks who earned it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 22 Jan 03 - 04:19 PM The problem is, Nicole, that not only are we not fixing the problems with eductaion but they are worsening. All one has to do is observe most inner city schools to get a purdy good idea of just how far they lag behind their suburban counterparts. It is amazing that anyone gets thru them with even the slightest bit of edgey-cation. And now, we see that the new plan is to bleed the schools which are doing poorly. Hmmmmmmm? I thought the days of leeches, as a treatment option, were gone? "No Child Left Behind"! What a joke. When you strip off the the sugar coat you have a punitive system. Not only that, now we're learning that Junior writes a check like a man with no arms. They are not even spending the money that they said they would. Ha! No make that a big Haha, will ya.' "No Child Left Unrecruited" to have his butt blown up in one of Junior's war dejour as now the military has access to every student that is in the public school system... So, I guess after all my ranting, I'm still sticken with my support for an imperfect AA plan until I see that the playing field has been leveled K thru 12, thank you. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 22 Jan 03 - 06:36 PM I also still support AA, as a paltry, problematic, foot in the door, until there's something better. I don't believe it's what has stood in the way of progress on social issues, don't see how it's possible to think that. Many people seem to put a lot more stock in merit testing than I do, maybe that's part of the difference of views. I expect admissions to be unfair, erroneous, somewhat arbitrary, and AA is really just a bet-hedge, a way we'd prefer not to err. One of the biggest problems with AA is that despite it being a reasonable measure to take, it confounds and confuses and riles up people because there is just something they want to believe, in spite of everything, about academic testing. That God makes those damn tests. Nicole C I was wrong, I do feel sorry for you, with your moral sense, your ethics, and now your fine sense of what's ironic. If you think you can compare a corrective handicap of college admissions with the legacy of slavery you're out of your pea-picking head somehow. Obviously you aren't F-ing stupid. That leaves F-ing nuts, and full of shit. I don't believe in violence but morally we distinguish counter-active violence against existing violence real and/or threatened. Well discrimination against blacks is still both threatened and real. But try a narrow measure to counteract the violence of the demonstrable discrimination specifically against blacks, and watch the white people get all nut-up with their big ideals of equality. What a bunch of stupid white people we have here, all acting like it's a choice on the table between AA or some big equality thing that's bound to happen. It's sad, sad. I'm disappointed and really sorry to hear all this. Even sadder is that when you test this discrimination, then ask the employers about it, it's not bigotry, just inertia. The whole thing makes people edgy and uncomfortable, afraid of trouble, and it's just easier not to hire blacks, not worry about it. There are always other people who deserve it too. Not like there was any discrimination, no bigotry, no guilt, nothing wrong. They believe in this big equality thing too. Just not our problem, not our fault, no need to do anything, lift a finger, cross the street. It's sad. Doug R if my logic is hard to follow it's probably because I'm arguing with what you aren't saying. Follow that? If you believe nobody should be discriminated against it's nice to follow up with some concern about when people actually are. Not just pipe up like you reliably do when they are white. For that, you support scrapping AA. About the rest you don't feel the need to speak a word of practical concern. AA is such a measly step to take, in such a grey area. I'm all for trading it for anything better. Nicole C has some ideas that sound pretty good, I'm sure if she'd send them to Bush he'll do them. Or if not, scrapping AA will surely ring in a new era of peace, harmony, and justice for all. Us white people are pretty sure of that. As a high school dropout who graduated summa cum laude, I'm not sure about this blind academic criteria. I got F's in high school, A's in college. They want to consider other things than past performance and tests. But what do they know? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Ebbie Date: 22 Jan 03 - 09:46 PM Fred, I'm sitting here laughing in astonishment. You HAVE come out of your shell, haven't you! For the record, I agree with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 23 Jan 03 - 01:01 AM Fred: there you go again. You complain because I don't show compassion for those who are discriminated against? Where did you get the idea that I am not sympathetic to them? That, however, is not what we are addressing. In order for the two of us to discuss this, we have to be on the same page. Nicole: I suspect that you are right (last paragraph of your last post) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:06 AM No Doug R I complain because you and everybody else has compassion and sympathy and high-minded platitudes of equality and it's all completely worthless. Keep it. One has to be willing to do something. To actually do something not throw out a nice theory. People who practice clear-cut discrimination have sympathy and compassion too. Good for us. I complain because you and Nicole C and others are drunk with a Kantian categorical imperitive of non-discrimination which is nothing like real morality in practice. Discrimination is wrong! Fire bad! Bread good! Frankenstein the moralist. Forgive me if you are 8 years old--grow up. Your fine sense of morality is too fine for this shabby world. I suggest we crucify you and tell your stories for centuries to come. But I'd rather go to hell with Huckelberry Finn than to your heaven of non-discrimination. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:53 AM Forgot to say Hi Ebbie, Bobert--all the voices that as I feel more and more upset and uncomfortable, feel like my best friends. Thanks for being alive. I still think it's fine to oppose AA. I'm tempted to post what I think are good reasons to, instead of this fragrant puddle of whitewash. The stuff above is like a box of assorted cookies in different shapes, that all taste just the same. I'd be embarrassed to admit how upset I am at what seems to be a group rationalization coalition. It's weird that I of all people would want to defend consideration of athletics. I just didn't want to pay that university fee for it, since I've never watched a ball game in my life. But there's something to it, isn't there? Force of will, animal beauty, the poignant determination to achieve something that doesn't matter at all. The very idea of a university seems to call for considering it, even if you or I personally don't care. If you can't recognise the value of something so old, so imbedded in western culture, woven into the meaning of Hamlet--how far can you recognise actual diversity, and respect different kinds of intelligence? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:00 AM Dougie: You wrote: "Where did you get the idea that I am not sympathetic to them?" ahhhh, "them"? Sometimes the answer can be found in the question... Fred: Thanks for the the well written post. I'm sorry to not have Nicole in on this issue. I think Nicole is the world's smartest person and I've made no bones about how I respect her. Just wish she were with us on this one 'cause it's a biggie... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 23 Jan 03 - 01:37 PM A metaphor, if you will. The first day of art class in 4th grade, I was shown how to draw a straight line without a ruler. You don't look at the point where your pencil was. You don't look at where your pencil is. You don't wonder if you are drawing a straight line. You look where you want to go. If you don't, the pencil dictates where the line goes, and an ugly, crooked line it will be. Dr. King didn't inspire millions of Americans and push the civil rights movement into the 20th century by complaining about the "legacy of slavery." He inspired them by showing them a place they wanted to be, and the people followed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:15 PM Sorry about that accidental post. My finger slipped. The major reason to support affirmative action appears to be the lack of alternatives, so I will present one. First, the problem of education disparities needs to be solved. A program like ROTC, except for teachers in inner-city and other under-performing schools would work well; the teacher gets a free college education, the schools have enough teachers to make class size ratios tolerable. In the long-term, this should also let minorities reduce or eliminate the wealth disparities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:21 PM I told ya', Fred. Purdy smart, ain't she? But danged, Nicole, at any given point between A and B you are only where you are relative to the departure point and the destination point. Yes, You have to keep your good eye on a star, but you alos must appreciate the "here-an-now-ness" of the journey. The here-and-now-ness of this journey is that without AA, or AA-Lite, or something, we're allowing the pencil to break on that journey. And if it breaks in mid course then you can forget point B because, as for this little experiement our collective grade will be DNF (Did Not Finish). I think we may just be getting to the point where we are going to have to agree to disagree. I understand your arguements. I think you understand mine. And now we're volleying rather than trying to find a middle ground. Yeah, I have said that I would love nothing more than to not have AA becuase for that to happen in Bobert's perfect little world, that would mean that we would have collectively eliminated those K-12 variables that had kept minorities on the short end of the stcik... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:43 PM Yep, Bobert, I think you and Nicole are. I find it interesting, though, that your (and others) opinion of Nicole's POV is simply that she is wrong. Why? Because she does not agree with you! As to your remark about my post (them). What's wrong with that? Any reader would know I was referring to minority students. What would you have me use instead of "them?" I've reached that point with your admirer, Fred, too. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: NicoleC Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:53 PM Well, Bobert, I think you are taking this metaphor too far, but I'm game -- If your pencil breaks, that doesn't mean you can't draw a line. You get another pencil -- and you pick up where you left off and STILL keep your eye on where you are going. If you are watching the pencil lead, it's easy to give up on the line if it breaks. That doesn't mean that *discussing* the line and studying it's path doesn't have merit. It's just not how the line gets drawn. Okay, the metaphor is falling apart now... *sigh* You're right, Bobert, we are simply disagreeing and running in circles. While I am totally in agreement on the goal, I'm just not sold on the method. But I have faith in people -- and I don't think an entire generation of kids needs to have equal opportunity education from birth to do some good. I don't think it's too late to work toward balancing the scales in 11th or 12th grade by mentoring and better schooling and access to better learning materials, and it does a lot more good for the self-esteem of the student. If you show them point B and give them a pencil, it's amazing how many different ways people can draw a line to get there. Then again, I don't think it's too late if you can help a 55 year old minimum wage hotel maid to take classes at the local community college for $11 a unit. (Gotta love that CA community college system.) Even if *she* doesn't get a better job, pride and knowledge are contagious. We all need role models :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:57 PM Doug: I reread your post and admit that you were referencing a "subject" in the use of "them". So I take back my post and offer you an apology on this one. But, don't go gettin' a big head on me 'cause you're still a knucklehead. (Bobert sniffs and looks down at his feet...) Now come on over here a get a big hug... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:13 PM Thank you Bobert. I accept your apology, but you can give the hug to Nicole, thank you. Or Fred Miller. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:15 AM I'm not going to take up the drawing metaphor because I was a drawing major, can draw a straight line either way, the side edge of a graphite stick or charcoal works better, and the known universe and and I prefer curves. We're not talking about drawing or dreaming but the relation of our ideals to our practical lives. I can agree to disagree on AA, but what has got me so upset is kind of the arguments so consistently raised against it. That is bothering me a lot more than the question itself. To call AA racial discrimination just like any other racial discrimination, to equate it, to pretend to be above such human failings in some ivory tower with your moral ideals, your sympathy, your dreams, your straight lines, whatever, to find certain things "ironic" because you are equating quite different things--is to deny something about U.S. history, American culture, and yourself in it, if you are an American. It's wrong wrong wrong. Don't do that, please, you don't have to do that. You do stuff like that, you'll live in the margin of your own life. Find yourself wanting things you don't even want. You'll wake up one day and miss yourself. Please stop this crazy talk. And no, AA is not there to pat ourselves on the back and feel better, it's to kick ourselves, and feel worse. Anyone can chose to take my parodic ramblings amiss, be offended--like Doug R preferring to hear Sympathy and Compassion when I believe I said practical concern-- but they are not to attack anyone any more than me. Saints can excuse themselves. We may believe violence is wrong but the measures we have to take against it also contain regulated doses of violence, and they are not the same thing, are unfortunate, not ironic. We can dream and be inspired that one day there won't be this mess. Meantime, back at the ranch. That's why I keep making fun of these idealistic postulations--it's not how we are. It's not who we are. It's certainly not politics. Or maybe it's just me. If we're told to turn the other cheek if we're sinned against 7 times 70 times, and if we believe in it, it's our way to figure that's what, 490? And at 491 if not sooner we'll pop open a can of righteous whoop-ass. We make distinctions, qualifications, always, unless we'd just rather not. You don't have to kid yourself to oppose AA. You can oppose it anyway, though I personally don't recommend it, right now. Wouldn't be prudent. At this juncture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:52 AM AA IS racial discrimination, make no mistake. As such it has a number of problems, chiefest being that it allows underqualified persons to be accepted to colleges or job positions because they are a minority. No matter how much you want to take the responsibility for what you ancestors, or ancestors of other people in the country, did to Africans, the fact of the matter is that discriminating to alleviate disparities helps no one. Eliminate the socioeconomic difference between minorities, and the educational differnece will disappear. Leave it in place, and nothing you do to fix the symptoms will have any effect on the underlying problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:12 PM Well, danged, Fred. You said it all, right there... But, as per usual under this current administration, the PR work has been done and there don't seem to be any folks who want to take on Junior's PR firm. The average American working man is working his butt off at Boss Hog's widget plant to pay for the SUV that Boss Hog sold him and has his Boss Hog credit cards maxed and the poor guy doesn't have time to think. Just obey, and think he's thinking. Like how mauch actual thought goes on inside the mind of a parrot? But we have all these people stuck in Boss Hog's exercize wheels, getting no where and all they are capable of is parroting. Sure there are a few folks who disagree with AA who are thinking people but for the most part, the American people don't have a clue about the program or its history. You have to compliment Bush for recognizing the complete stangle hold that his people have on the working man. And they are smart enough to recognize that if they put enough sugarcoat on any issue that the working man will eat it and say it was wonderful. Yep, Bush has gone way beyond the days of *the big lie told often and loudly* to *dressed to the nines* lies that are all glitter yet short enough to fit onto a bumper stciker or into a sound bite. Unfortuately, the issues involved and the history of of AA are more complex than bumper sticker fixes. Like I have pointed out several times recently, Bush is going to have his war, he is going to hurt minority participation in the American dream, he is going to rob the working class, he is going to force poor women into back alley abortion shops and there's hardly anything anyone can do about it because, unless I've missed something, he *owns* the governemnt right now... Carlos Castanada had Don Juan tell Carlos that Carlos should pay someone to give Carlos's teenage son a butt whoppin' becuase it would give the son a lesson in humility. Well, looks like the American people are getting one of those butt whoppins right now and I hope they remember it this time because they must have forgotten it to let such a madman reach such a high level of power. But, with all that said, I still see the value in AA and hope and pray that, inspite of the long odds against its survival, that it does survive until a better p;lan is in place... Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM For the third time, I ask: if race is not supposed to matter, why do we keep making it matter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:33 PM Yes, yes. Don't do a small good thing because you can't do a friggin huge good thing. And violent methods to counter violence ARE violence, make no mistake. And as such they have a number problems, cheifest being that they are kinda necesary. And everyone who gets into the school you applied to or got the job you deserve is underqualified, cheifly in that they are Not You. I'm not aware of any ancestors of mine who were slave-owners but the point is advantages that are mine here and now, regardless, which I might like to think are earned by divine right and richly deserved. I think it's pointless to be a refusnik and not accept those advantages, generally, when they come to me. But not with a vain notion that I have them because things are so intrinsically fair. And then sometimes they don't come, probably because I'm an oppressed white man, damn it! Whatever happened to Gary Cooper? In photography, Nicole C, I took dead-level exposures that kept resulting in thin negatives. No matter how I checked my developing, temperatures, everything, it still came out that way. People thought I had to be doing something wrong. Despite every care I could take, despite all the best intentions and care I could muster, I couldn't seem to fix the results I got. I So I started exposing with the needle high, over-estimating a little one way. Did it fix the fact that I take lousy photographs? No. But at least I got better prints of my lousy pictures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: DougR Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM Sorry for the thread creep, but it's already creeped a bunch. Bobert: how an artist as talented as you could draw such a distorted picture of the average "working man" (and I assume "woman") is beyond me. The average working person has much more smarts than you give them credit for having. Your disdain for business owners (and you are one yourself I believe)evidently has clouded your thinking. I don't think the average working person is nearly as put-upon as you, and is not nearly as unhappy as you believe they are. If you were "boss hog" how would you make that person more happy? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:23 PM The problem with underqualified workers is not just that the qualified don't get the job. Do you honestly want to trust you life to a pilot who got into flight school only because he was hispanic, or your chidren's education to a teacher whose best qualification is that their parents donated to the college? The solution is to eliminate the inequities. The existence of AA, which appears to the uninformed to solve the problem, prevents progress from being made on real reform. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM Kim C, gosh. Golly. Because "not supposed to matter" is not the same thing as "ISN'T GOING TO MATTER" just because we get rid of AA. It will, it does, you can test it, you can prove it. And by a much wider margin than AA begins to balance. You can show it back to people who made the decisions that they will hire an underqualified white person before a qualified black person, and there's always a non-racist or quasi-rasist-not-that-I'm-a-racist rationale, but there it is. It's not better because it's cold-blooded, and everyone knows to say the right thing. In some ways I think it's worse. I can see this is pointless, but--aigghyh. Forum Lurker, please please please. One difference in racial discrimination is that AA is there as a stated bias, a policy of racial discrimination, yes it is, and you can see just what it is and who it's for. But ask yourself if you've ever known a non-minority who with no such stated, obvious, and open bias working for them, who got into college or got a job and seemed underqualified. Never? Then never mind, go with what you know. That's what anyone has to do. But if so, hm, how does that happen? I've known non-minority people who got in and graduated and got jobs and still seem underqualified to go in the first place. Are you considering the whole picture? Does the question seem too easy? Too obvious? it's racial discrimination, and isn't that "supposed" to be wrong? Isn't race "supposed" to not matter? as Kim C keeps petulantly asking like an adorable naive six-year old. The answers seem to me very childish, vain, silly, careless, thoughtless--and some quite grown-up sophisticated and insane. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Kim C Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:08 PM Well, gee, Fred, race doesn't matter one whit to me, not one, so I just figured it shouldn't matter to anyone else either. All this work we try to do, to get it NOT to matter, just perpetuates the ridiculousness of it all.. But I suppose that's naive. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:27 PM And another thing, Lurker. In your view, presumably, qualified non-minorities get into school on their merits, buckle down, study, get grades, and eventually graduate, while minorities go in and out like the Marx brothers through the doors of a taxi cab. You people and your steady supply of nonsense. Headline: Another unqualified-minority-related death!!! I happen to be an utterly unqualified white guy who got into college, in case you couldn't think of any. As a matter of fact, I never thought to look at the pilots when I get on a plane, I actually very much do trust my children's education to some unbelievably dedicated black teachers at a mostly black school, which is very highly ranked in scores in the state, and which most white people in Louisville have never even heard of, and would not even consider if they had. It's in the "west-end" you know. And my daughter just this week tested well above advanced, into gifted and talented. And you know what else? Guess. No. You're wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:12 PM Kim C, as I said, saints may exclude themselves. My apologies, and please don't hear any of my stupid tone in that, really. I'm happy for you, and hope you can keep thinking the best of the rest of us. Pay no attention to that white man behind the curtain, don't go looking into it too far, we'll only break your heart. Someone I knew grew up in an openly racist house, quite sheltered from the liberal media, but without a trace of it in him, it seemed. Who knows where that gift comes from, but he was a better person than me, in general. Once he told me that when he looked at human skulls the anglo ones looked noble and beautiful to him, the others like some old clay pot. That's all he said for a while. The biggest factor in predicting a child's success in school seems to be the education level of the mother. Guess that sounds sexist, but what can you do? I suppose I am a sexist, because it especially disappoints me when women don't seem to see how coy, sly, cold, and unspoken real discrimination can be. It's odd how most opponents of AA I know off-line will concede this, and grant you that--I don't know--that it probably helps for young minorities to see people like them going to college, in jobs, hanging out with Joey, Monica, Phoebe, Chandler, and the gang, just to make it imaginable, for instance. But here in E-ville our AA opponents grant nothing, hold the line, like they feel their position so inherently weak they can't give up a single inch. There used to be that riddle about the surgeon and his son who were in a car wreck, taken to the hospital, and a surgeon comes in and looks at the boy and says I can't operate on him, he's my son. Fifteen, twenty years ago nobody could figure that out. You know, when they changed the questions on I.Q. tests to even women with men, that was blatant sexism, make no mistake. If gender wasn't supposed to matter, why did they make it matter? Nicole C once again I must eat my words. The big thing in drawing isn't making a straight line--use a ruler if you want--but forgetting what you think about things, your ideas about things, and just looking at them. That's why in the old European schools they made you draw student pottery. If you drew it true and perfect they could tell you weren't really looking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:46 PM Yo, Doug: Thank's for the kind words about my artwork. They were nice. Now, as fir the average working shmo. You may not see it as much as most of us becasue you live in an area that is highly populated with folks who have survived the assembly lines and are now more concerned with tee times then making a living. With that said, the average American worker is now working longer and harder for less return for his labor than any time in the last 30 years. Income to debt ratios are at an all time high. Bankrupcties at an all time high. Now, with unemployment so high, those who have jobs are working even harder than longer hoping not to be the next to get a pink slip. This is occuring at a time when health care and insurance costs are rocketing to the degree that 41,000,000 American citizens now have no health insurance. Given the absolute *driven* condition that the working man finds himself in, he comes home, crashes and goes at it again in the morning. You may not think it is like this but it is very much like this. I see it everyday. The American worker is battle fatigued and, sadly, as smart as he may be, doesn't have the time to do what a lot of us here at Mudcat take for granted, like, ahhh, thinking and communicating about ideas. But no problem, Doug, becuase our working class hero has Mr Bush and his PR firms to stick little catch ohrases in his mind so that if he is asked an opionion, he will have one. No his, actaully. Butr an opinion. And guess who's opinion he has and guess what "buzz words" he will use in voicing it? Yep, Bush's PR firms, that's whose. Now, I know you well enough to know that you think yer ol' hillbilly been watching too many movies or off the meds, but this is the real world. If it wasn't then why is it that the candidate that spent the most money won 90% of the last election races. Hmmmmmm? Because the one with the most money got more exposure for their buzz words. Its all about repetition... Like Walter Cronkite used to say, "And that's the way it is." Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:30 PM Speaking of working hard, I'm not, I'm sick at home, going on at this. And also speaking of working hard, how does blind merit testing help the poor? Because they are typically smarter? As Kim C pointed out way back, not being so exceptional doesn't make you a bad person. Or make you take responsibilities for other people's lives lightly, if you are flying a plane. I picture all you merit people with ears like Mr. Spock, wondering what the deal is with these irrational human considerations. Being given a chance is huge. May seem like it's doing nothing good. To you. Black newspapers say different--"Bush Is Wrong" on the one I bought today. Kim C it's not "naive". There's a term for having a feeling about things and thinking that everyone must feel the same, from the same point of view. But it's not "naive". I had a little psychology a long time ago, and can't think of it. It's associated with autism, sometimes, and psychopathic personalities. Nicole C may know it. Might want to have that looked at. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM Any of y'all mind if I publish some of your views and quotes, to a slightly broader readership? I'd have to have permission, but since it's killing me, making me sick, I maybe ought to do something to get rid of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:30 PM Heck, Fred, you got my permisssion to publicsh my stuff antwhere you want. Actually, if you have the power to get it on Bush's desk, that would be great. He is so out of it! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Bobert Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:32 PM Ahh, you even have my permission to correct my spelling.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush to Minorities: Screw you and the... From: Sam L Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:59 PM Thanks Bobert, I hope maybe I can, if I can get enough permissions to make a piece. Having your first and some others of yours seem critical to put anything at all worthwhile together. But it has to have opposing voices too, and more of them than pro, I feel. Help? You know I'm really nice in person, when you aren't trying to kill me. |