BS: Shape up you women...right now!

Subject: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:10 AM

This arrived at my 'workstation' (ha ha) yesterday, and different varieties have continued to come in thick and fast.

In one of the varieties (they're from the 1955 edition of "Good Housekeeping Magazine" I believe) there's a GREAT cartoon, and a hilariously revised text....something about "don't tell him YOUR problems, HIS are far more important!"

I BELIEVE this is straight and legit. I can picture Mrs. Lott and Mrs. Bush looking at it and wondering where the jokes are...but bein' a housewife in the 50s sure wasn't a joke.

My favourite bit of advice is "washing the childrens' little hands and faces" before Dad comes home from his 9-5 pressure job at Enron

Pray I get the blue clicky right.....if not, can someone bail me out.

stromville

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:22 AM

OH MY LORD, it's friggin' Canadian!

I was tryin to hunt down the original magazine article with the great cartoon and warning for women not to confuse THEIR concerns with anything important....and found this. It's IN THE BIBLE! It would serve Pat Robertson, and Oral and Richard Roberts right if their little women were boinkin' the travelling icon salesmen instead of having those "tasty meals" (shake and bake?) ready on time!

Cheers

Rick

P.S. I guess this article was about ten years too early for that whole "Saranwrap" thing, that Phylis Shaffley (or whoever) came out with.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:25 AM

forgot the clicky.

bushbliss

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:27 AM

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:32 AM

gads Rick no wonder I couldn't make the grade as a 'wife'! I was born about a decade too late to be instructed properly!

Always thought I'd have been happier as a 'husband' ... I mean look at all the nurturing and coddling and understanding you guys get every day!

;-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM

daylia,

We need it. We're big sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:35 AM

Yes, we could all use a good wife, couldn't we? It is so hard to find cooperative slave labor these days. That's why we need to keep hiring Salvadorans whose social security we don't have to pay, to do the jobs for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:37 AM

From the third variation:

"7. Make him comfortable: Have him lean
             back in a comfortable chair or suggest he
             lie down in the bedroom. Have a cool or
             warm drink ready for him. Arrange his
             pillow and offer to take off his shoes.
             Speak in a low, soft, soothing and
             pleasant voice. Allow him to relax and
             unwind."

Can you Mudcat women start speaking in a "low, soft soothing and pleasant voice" please? And preferably with English accents!

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: mmm1a
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:45 AM

OMG
Lets hope my husband doesn't see this one. A home that is calm and quiet, yeah right, like that would ever happen at my house. Thank God I didn't live back then.
                      mmm

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:45 AM

That's it; I definitely want a wife!!!

bbc, working full-time outside the home as well as inside it

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:49 AM

I know Steve, and you can be so 'sweet' too - kinda like a big sweet pain-in-the-you-know-what!

BIG BIG   ;-) ... kinda like   

;-)

I know you guys like 'em big!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:49 AM

Well apochryphal or not, it was a different time wasn't it? WE're now ranting on about Pete Townshend and kiddie porn, but in the 50's, risque material generally was more along the lines of Art Frahm classic which showed the effects of celery on elastic..........and very little else.

So is there some correlation between equality of women and porn?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:51 AM

No problem what so ever Barb!

Just go to point two and you should have no trouble finding a wife.


"Be a little gay and a little more interesting.
Cheers

Rick

P.S. Not that you're not ALREADY interesting!

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:58 AM

I have noticed a definite corelation between women and porn, Spaw ...

As in porn tends to make women 'equal' only to trash cans ... and men 'equal' to screwdrivers ...

Just my opinion though!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

Oh, Rickee, does Heather know you want us to speak in a"low, soft soothing and pleasant voice" ... preferably with English accents!?? Is it safe to call now? **BG**

Sheesh, the really scary part is some of this spilled over to my sisters and me in the mid-60's/early 70's! I remember cleaning house, sprucing myself and the kids up and having dinner on the table when my first husband came home from work! Boy, I sure got out of that fast, though! It wasn't for me...puir Rog, he's never known that side of me!:-)

katrebel

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:22 PM

Hmmmm.......Wait a minute here............I have Karen's breakfast ready when she comes home. I have the kids up, showered and dressed and ready for school. I sit and listen to the travails of the workplace and make sure she gets to bed as soon as possible. I have her clothes ready when she gets up and then I pick up the kids and have supper on the table by 5:30. I pack her lunch and warm up the car...........ohmygawd........I'm a 50's housewife!!!!

Spaw--who lists his occupation as "Househusband"

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:24 PM

Are you kidding? I grew up in the '70's and we had that kind of "be a good wife" stuff in Home Ec class. That's the south for you. I wonder what happened to me?

For a while, I had this guy who mooched off me. In the beginning, it was worth it to find myself paying his bills, feeding him and buying his clothes, because I would come home to a clean house with dinner on the table. Only, he never LEFT. So I got tired of his lazy butt and kicked him out.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:27 PM

Of course the irony is that the men I've known who have been househusbands in households with children (and who worked in jobs outside the home previously), tell me that the househusband (houswife) job is the toughest and most difficult job they've ever had ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

Dear Carol,

No shit.

Sincerely,

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

Looks like we cross posted, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:31 PM

I ain't buyin' it CarolC. Having been both housekeeper and main breadwinner as a single and married parent, I would have to say being a househusband or housewife is definitely the easiest way out, considering the alternatives. When the kids were small especially, I used to dream about being able to be an at-home parent, while being financially supported by a partner.

As if.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

P.S. Being a single mother doing both the "housewife" and "breadwinner" jobs is the toughest job I ever had.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:34 PM

Cross posted, again. I've done all of those things too, GUEST. I'd say depending on the job, sometimes house parent is the toughest, and sometimes working outside the home is tougher. One of the biggest difficulties of being a house parent is that the job is so undervalued, and you never get to leave your job to go home. You're always on the job, with no breaks from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:38 PM

I didn't mean my post to come off sounding like a housekeeper of either gender has it easy. I just meant that for the brief time (a year and a half) I stayed home to clean & raise kids while my partner worked, we had the additional stresses of not enough money to get by on a single salary. So I went back to work part-time when youngest was two, then full-time when they were all in school full days. It was the hardest time of my life too. I wonder how common it is for the divorce to happen when the part-time spouse goes to full-time, and starts demanding the housework & childrearing chores be evenly split, as happened with me? The single parenting happened about a year after I started working full time again, and my partner felt they were being asked to do too much, and I was being lazy (for not doing all the things I'd done while working part-time).

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:40 PM

Sometimes you just can't win, eh, GUEST?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:43 PM

Ditto, Carol. I'm still in 'recovery'!

As a private music teacher for over twenty years (sheesh has it been THAT long?) one thing I've noticed that's very encouraging is that more and more Dads every year are the ones to bring the kids to lessond and to practice with them at home! Last time I held a performance class for them on a Sat morning the Dads present outnumbered the Moms about 2 to 1!
This was almost unheard of in the 70's ...

I just love to see it happening - all the more power to you 'househusbands' and nurturing Dads willing to actively 'parent' even after a hard day's work!

IMO when Mom's happy and gets her own needs met, everyone's happier!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:44 PM

How true. Now, as I suggested earlier, if we could all just get a wife...

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: annamill
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 12:58 PM

HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!HAHA!...slurp...

Sorry.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: JenEllen
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 01:41 PM

One of the few possessions I have of my mother's is a book by Marabel Morgan entitled: "The Total Woman"--a #1 bestseller in the early 70's on "How to make your marriage come alive!" I read it when I need a good laugh.

What a sad twist on feminity and woman's rights (Simone de Beauvoir she ain't) when a person can sell:
"I do believe it is possible," says Marabel Morgan, "for almost any wife to have her husband absolutely adore her in just a few weeks time. She can revive romance, reestablish communication, break down barriers, and put sizzle back into her marriage. It is really up to her. She has the POWER."

With such discussions as "Rebuilding the Partial Man": "I feel guilty using my feminine wiles on my husband. It seems dishonest. Anyway, his ego is so big, it doesn't need expanding."

to my personal favourite:
HAPPY HOMECOMING!
Take a few extra moments for that bubble bath tonight....Remove all prickly hairs and be squeakiy clean from head to toe. Be touchable and kissable. For a really sparkling mouth, use dental floss after brushing, then brush again, and close with a good mouthwash. You could greet anyone after that!...Waltzing to the door to greet your husband in a cloud of powder and cologne is a great confidence builder. Not only can you respond to his advances, you will want to! Never let your husband know what to expect when he opens the front door; make it like opening a surprise package. You may be a smouldering sexpot, or an all-American fresh beauty. Be a pixie or a pirate, a cowgirl or a showgirl. Keep him off guard!"

My gawd, is it any wonder these women were heavy into prescription medication? *bg*

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 01:45 PM

Anyone seen "Far From Heaven" or "The Hours" yet? Both seem to touch on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:02 PM

Well, heck, I reckon this is as close to the kind of thread that I can gripe about my wife on as any.

Dear Dr. Phil: Let me tell you about my wife! Okay, I'm the breadwinner, fir the most part since I earn 80% of the income and my wife teaches music privately and makes up the other 20%. I also work 6 days a week and she works for about 8 hours a week over three days.

Now when I come home from work opn those three nights I cooks the dinner, I serve the dinner, I wash the dishes as I do every night. Then the wife gives me a honey-due list and yells at me if I get on the pudder for more than an hour.

But that ain't what bugs me. The wife thinks the horizontal filing is superior to verticle filing and therefore the entire house is covered in piles and piles of, ahhhh, danged if I know. I like to keep my stuff in verticle files and in a cabinet. Then the wife complains that the house ain't big enough for her files. Heck, Alabame wouldn't be big enough for her files.

So I figured, being the smart person that I used to think I was, that I would just join in and adopt the verticle filing system myself to see what would happen. Well, danged> I gets accused of messin' up the joint?!?!

So everyday, she goes off into the world with her pile dajour and sets it down in the front seat of her car and by the time she gets to where ever she is going the pile de jour is all over the place. So I bought her a real nice brief case a year ago for Christmas. Paid close to $150 for it. Well, Dr. Phil, where do ya' think that danged thing is now? I'll tell ya. It's in the closet and has never been used. That's where it is...

I need help!

Okay, I mighta creeped a tad here but the thread title is "Shape up you Women... Right Now" so I figgured this might be my last shot to ask for help before my sorry and boney Wes Ginny butt get's engulfed in piles...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST,Dr. Philomena
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:06 PM

A butt engulfed in piles? Dang Bobert, you have our sympathy!

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:06 PM

Hey Bobert! What's she got in those piles, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:39 PM

You name it, CarolC, and it's in one or another ot another or another. Heck, danged if I know but most every one of 'em contains most of the following: old grocery shopping lists, music, bank deposit tickets, coupons for dog food, folders with recipes, old banana peels, bills, letters, catalogs with stuff circled, music books, rubber bands, a gardening book and something clipped out of a 1973 newspaper. Yep, those are the *staples* that are pretty much common to them all.

Throw in an occasioanl bedroom slipper, a dog coller, a saucer with flowers on it, a hair brush, a box of Jumbo paperclips, a jar of dill pickles (unopened), a half a dozen old "InTouch" maginzines or any amgazine for that matter, a package of crakers, a dog's lecense tag, etc., etc. and these things make the piles individualistic.

Now, I don't want nayone to think I don't love my wife 'cause I love her to pieces. But if ya don't see me fir a week or two, send the depilers in to find me...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 02:56 PM

Nicole I was in high school in the 70's too, but I never took HomeEc! So that's how I missed out on the proper instruction, hence never quite 'making the grade' at the wife thing!!

Ah, those extra music courses were a real bonus after all!

:-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 03:13 PM

can't comment....MY wife reads these threads....and she can type much faster than I and might have much to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 03:14 PM

Bobert, your wife works only three days a week? :-O I sure hope Whoever made you didn't break that winning mould! I earned 100% if the income, worked (for money) 6 days a week for at least half of my 'parenting' days ... poor me, poor me ... ;-)

Yeah, the cost of love sure 'piles' up sometimes, eh? But the prize is priceless ...

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 03:23 PM

If Heather dresses up like a pirate, I wanna divorce!

I've read Treasure Island!

Yeah, it was that Marabel Morgan (I confused her with Phyllis Schlafffffllllly). She was the "saranwrap" gal.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: JenEllen
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, I like saran wrap as much as the next gal, but there has to be a limit. I just wonder if it goes both ways? Would Karen want a divorce if Spaw came to the door as a showgirl, or would it be 'just another day at the office'? *bg*

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: JenEllen
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 03:58 PM

Apologies, that was supposed to be a joke. These gals are Stepford Wives and I'm more Harper Valley PTA, ya know? They obvioulsy took this very seriously, and all I could think after reading Rick's post was:
His name was Catspaw
He was a showgirl
Yellow feather in his hair
An' saran wrap down to there
He did the dishes
An' walked the weimies
While Karen worked out in the lab
Catspaw tried to be a dad
Juggling the kids and home
He did it all alone
Then one day he grabbed some 'glad wrap' an' when she--got--home--
It was Catspaw, Catspaw Cabana....

shoot me now...

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:52 PM

Hey Bobert, that sounds like MY house too! (And MY piles- and it bugs me too....) If there's an answer, I'd be delighted to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:59 PM

Well Rick, some anonymous person posted this in "The Good Wife's Guide" thread. Weird coincidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:59 PM

Noreen:

I had to get an ink cartridge the other day, so I went to Office Depot and getting back to where the cartridges are I walked down an entire isle of paper shreaders.

Hey, did you know you can get 'em fir as little as 39 bucks? Whew! Well, I almost bought one but then this voice went off in my head; "Are you crazy, Bobert?"

But, heck, I'm home now and the pudder is the middle of my wife's office and I just did a 360 and went like "Wow, this is unbelievable!"

Wonder what time Office Depot closes?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:05 PM

*grin* Lat me know the outcome, Bobert....

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:14 PM

So where do us wives line up to get a good wife?

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:38 PM

How'd you get out of Home Ec, daylia? In my neck of the woods, females had to take it EVERY year grades 6-8 -- indoctrinate them early, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: bbc
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:03 PM

Back to Rick several posts up--In all seriousness, even if I were gay & could manage to be more interesting, I bet there aren't many women interested in catering that much to another person, these days. I have to agree w/ CarolC, though, it is no fun being the only breadwinner & a single parent.

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:21 PM

Well, danged, Nicole. I wanted to take HomeEc in high school but they wouldn't let me. Yeah, I hated the shop teacher, Mr. Jenkins after the first week so I asked if I could transfer to Home Ec. Hey, they said that boys weren't allowed. Can you believe that? Like whadda ya do in Home Ec anyway. Sit around and gossip about the boys? Bake a few biscuits. Hey, I could have done that. Plus, it would have been a good place to groove with the cuties....

(Bad Bobert...)

No, but really, what did you womenz do in those classes?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Tinker
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:35 PM

Oh my.... I could go on and on about what a wonderful example Mr. Feilding has found to demonstrate the demonic twist a patriarchal society has put on the soul tending tasks of welcoming, ordering and repose.... but all that talk hasn't cleaned my house yet either...

Bobert, the Mr. brings home FIVE newspapers a day to read and clip. And if work backs up they "vertically file" until he gets around to it. The Financial Times adds a little color to the otherwise drab piles.
Mine on the otherhand are definately creations of diversity. School notices now come in rainbow colors. Then add all the things listed above, plus the occaisional set of car keys to get a good idea of how challnged we are....

Tinker

Educated, Intellegent, Domestically Indifferent

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:37 PM

If I was so fortunate to have a nice man, I would cater to him somewhat....

now..for cluttering..there are decluttering lists..I am a definite clutterer even after I gave everything away..one thing that works is to have little jars all lined up on a counter..I have them for money, old batteries, hair things, rubber bands, lip goo, that sort of thing..then you can sort..

If a person is a horizontal filer, they can not (I think) change to vertical. You have to file horizontally. Like those racks they put mail in in offices or something similar. Have fewer categories. Read Messies Anonymous. It is a whole other brain pattern and you can't change it.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Tinker
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:47 PM

Bobert, since you asked so nicely I'll tell you what one "Child Development Class" for Senior Girls only did in the early seventies... Young female teacher told us the first day of class we could discuss anything and the curriculum would begin with the odd's of having that child develop with varying methods of birth control. She also warned us not to talk about what we we discussing at home.

She promised to answer any question, and did. Even the " Ummm, Ahh, Ya know when boys get excited and all they get, you know, umm hard, and well, why???? Was a memorable class discusssion....

Tinker
WhogotshutoutofshopclassandforcedtotakeTrig !!

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:48 PM

Well oi took bleedin' 'ome ec, and I bleedin' learned sumpin, even if oi bleedin' thought it were th'silliest bleedin' thing ever. Oi 'ad t'make bleedin' cream puffs and a bleedin' dress. Oi learned oi bleedin' 'ated doin' the bleedin' dishes.

(How's the accent?)

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

Thanks fir the encouraging words, mg.

(Bobert's head sinks low into his hands as the bobert forehead turns into ripple after ripple, like waves at the sea shore.)

I was hopin' for a medication, the magic words, a spell but no, I get... ahhhh, deal with it, Bobert. It ain't gonna change. Hey, would someone either lie to me or shoot me....

(The bobert looks around the cluttered office, closes his eyes and thinks of a big ol' black metal filing cabinet. Ahhh, life is good...)

Geeze....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: harpgirl
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

!!!!!!!!! (harpy speechless, in an english accent!)

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:05 PM

YUCK!!!!!

Hey, I'll just mossy on back to shop class, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: harpgirl
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:13 PM

Bobert....I usually don't give unsolicited advice but I buy a new twelve month file every January at Office Depot and put everything ( receipts, documents, deposit slips, canceled checks, monthly statements, bills)into it each month. Then at the end of the year, I sort it all into business expenses, health care, entertainment, etc., etc. and total it all up and give it to my accountant, who plugs in the numbers on my tax return...

At the office I take all my invoices, and everything else but case file materials and three hole punch them and put them into
notebooks marked with insurance, companies, contracts, correspondence, etc. accfording to date received. Then I can retreive them easily if I need to check numbers.

Just two organizing ideas that work for me....

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:14 PM

I should mention I found one site that takes that little guide seriously. I'm not posting it as it might provoke every flame war ever dreamed of in this one thread.

Now, about filing. Mary, I beg to differ with you about being either a horizontal or vertical filer. I do both. The piles are vertical. When they tip over, they're horizontal. I guess I believe that the vertical bits look neater, but it's easier to find stuff filed horizontally. Oh well - as long as I can walk past them it doesn't really matter too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Tinker
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:17 PM

Sorry*** BG*** but you did ask....

Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:03 PM

Harpgirl:

It ain't me. I am so utterly organized that I can lay my hands on anything anyone wants within 30 seconds. If I can't then a have a serious problem because my system does not allow for anything to not be where it is 'sposed to be. Honest. You need a cancelled check for a business expense in 1991. 30 seconds. Tax records from 1983. No problem. Ya see, I have verticle filing down to an art.

So to marry a woman just two short years ago who brought with her a lif'e worth of horizontal files is a bit challenging. I see the poor P-Vine trying to find this or that and all I can do is shake my head with sympathy...

But what's a guy to do, anyway?

I am seriously considering a shreader machine and sit her down at it once or twice a week with a pile or two...

But she is real possessive about her piles at this point in time so I'll just have to wait for the right time.

Until then?....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:17 PM

I got my girlfriend a mood ring for Christmas.

When she's in a good mood, it turns blue.

When she's in a bad mood, it leaves a red mark on my forehead.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:20 PM

"possessive about her piles"?

Depressed, I could see... irritated, frustrated, protective, yes.
But I bet she'd want to get rid of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:26 PM

Danged, Cluin, yir right. Think since it's real cold up here tonight that I'll just us 'em fir fuel in the wood stove. Thanks for the idea. Man, is she gonna be surprised in the mornin'. I can't wait to see the look on her face....

XXXXX-----Wrong-----XXXXXXXX!!!!!!!

Tell ya what, Cluin. How's 'bout you stopping by and talk with her about 'em....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: harpgirl
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:27 PM

...Bobert, why not help her get organized, if you're good at it? Kendall can tell you I'm not that good at, he's seen my house. But I copy ideas that other people use. The ADD people in the world need help with this problem. I bought my shreder for $19.95 at Walmart. It's electric blue and it cross cuts. I use it constantly.

Now, do you have any good ideas for my garage??????

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:38 PM

If it's detached, a gallon of gass, a match and a phone to call your insurance company.

If it's attached, ya might want to get the photo albums and guitars out first...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:44 PM

Jeez, Bobert. That's pretty radical... burning her piles off in the stove. I know they itch and burn, but hell!...

I doubt she'd want to talk to me about them. I'm not a doctor. I don't even play one on TV.   ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:45 PM

Nicole, HomeEc was not even part of the curriculum offered at the RC schools I went to in Ontario until Grade 10, and even then it was an 'Elective' not a 'Required' course. I don't remember there being any enforced 'gender segregation' in either the Shop or HomeEc classes either - although those classes were certainly 'genderized' one way or another.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:37 AM

Bobert, I couldn't take shop until high school when we got elective courses; until then it was home Ec for girls and shop for boys. Sex Ed was different for us -- it was in 8th grade, and it was a separate mini-class that happened for like 8 weeks once a week. Get this -- IT WAS INTEGRATED! (Boys and girls, I mean.) This from a school that didn't let girls take shop?! LOL.

In Home Ec, we learned which forks went where on the table and were used for what. We learned how to be the hostess of a party, how to cook basic foods, and how to plan a menu. What is appropriate to serve at what point during the meal and what foods go together, etc. Proper etiquette like who gets introduced to whom first, what to do in a recieving line, etc. We also learned basic sewing and clothes repair.

Actually, it was pretty informative. It would have been far better if the boys had learned basic etiquette, too, though, wouldn't it? Nah. They were busy making memo holders and shelves.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: mg
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:53 AM

if you are into swiffers, call 1-877-512-4526 and you can get one for free. Honest. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:17 AM

I thought of showing this to Herself, then I thought "do I want to spend the next month taking my nourishment through a straw?" also, as she's the one at work, like 'Spaw, I'm the houseperson now so I'd have to sharpen up my act!

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:15 AM

You know, oddly enough, when I married in 1976, I was much that kind of wife. Unfortunately, I married a husband who didn't appreciate it & who divorced me after 10 years & left me w/ 2 kids to raise alone. Figuring out how to manage that forced me to change into quite a different kind of woman. So much for that!

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:18 AM

Nicole C,

So that's what they taught in HomeEc. I was just thinking, I still have no clue about a lot of the things that you mentioned. Maybe they should have taught both subjects to all of us on alternating days.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:20 AM

Okay, I admit it, I'm the piler at our house. However I have decided I am going to spend some time getting rid of the things I don't need, that don't do anything but clutter up my life. 'Cause I pretty much have everything I need - and then some!

Anyway... we can laugh at all that "good wife" stuff, but let's think about it for a minute. Aren't some of those things what makes a good partner in general? I like cooking dinner for Mister. And on days when I'm off, I do have it ready when he gets home. And on some days, I'll put on a nice outfit and put candles on the table and all that. It's fun for me, and a nice surprise for him.

Sometimes he surprises me too, although his cooking ain't as good as mine. ;-)

It's all about being nice to the other person, just because you can. And everyone who works outside the home needs a little wind-down time when they hit the door.

Y'all's mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:46 AM

...But ya know folks...I've been doing some thinking, and even though I go back as far as the mid fifties, it was as a little kid, so I don't remember too much about 'husband-wife' stuff. What I DO remember is that in the sixties I made 'faggot' jokes along with my friends, probably used the term "easy" to describe girls who liked sex, BUT...saw myself as 'anti-war', enlightened, 'pro-integration' and certainly a cut above a lot of people.

Total and complete bullshit of course. I was an ignorant little twit who didn't have a clue what "diversity" or respect for others meant. My predjudices weren't overt but boy, were they there, and this was despite a pretty good upbringing. The best I can say for myself is that I had a reasonably open mind and when I DID start to understand (probably when I reached 18 or 19) about respect for people, I was fortunate not to have built-in cultural, religious, or inherited impediments. It was all up to me to try and improve or not.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:13 AM

Attaboy, Rick!! Nice tapdancing there, pal --just the right touch of enlightened, insightful sensitivity!! Why, sure, them women-folk will forget all about you starting this whole tact soft-core slavery thread!!   LOL!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:24 AM

"It's all about being nice to the other person, just because you can!"


You nailed it Kim C....

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:38 AM

So many tendrils to this thread. Rick, I agree with GUEST--the context is everything, and that link posted to the Snopes site was a good analysis of the issue. We all feel like we could use a "wife."

Bobert, though this may sound counter-intuitive, it sounds like your wife is a perfectionist. The trouble arises when you can't put things just the way you want them, you tend not to do them at all. I think this is my M.O., but I fight it all of the time. I was in graduate school for a long time and I have tons of paper from classes and essays I wrote. I had a multi-tiered system for a while because stuff was put into storage a few years ago and I had to restart some of the files (no access to the stored stuff, but I always remembered it was there and always planned to integrate the files and stacks). I was also a freelance writer and have lots of files and clippings and sample copies. And somewhere, under the clutter, there's a book about uncluttering the place.

Part of the problem was the space I lived in before. There wasn't enough of it. No room for the number of bookshelves I wanted, or the file cabinets I needed. I now have enough room, but have to build the shelves myself. I'll get there. I took everything out of storage and it completely filled my garage in August. (I built this garage last spring and had an attic built in to help avoid the future use of storage lockers. I now also keep the $125 a month that I was paying to store this stuff in two different places). You can understand that I'm on the road to recovery when I tell you that over the holiday break (I work at a university so had 12 days off) I slaved out there and I can now park my truck in my garage. The stuff had to go somewhere, and much of it is in the house, but I've found places for it (it's estate stuff like furniture and utensils comingled with many of my own boxes of books). There is a neat row of boxes in the garage still, stuff I can't bring in yet.

I hate the piles of paper, but that's the default system. I would be livid if someone presumed to come in and clean them up for me, so take if from me, focus your assistance in a different way. While you're over at Office Depot, pick up a few of the cardboard file boxes with lids, and bring them home. Or better yet, some of the plastic boxes with an edge so you can use hanging file folders. Take them home and suggest categories for them, then use stickers and a marker and label them clearly. Don't get too fancy, just have the open boxes, and go through a few piles an evening, dropping paid bills in one box, owners manuals in another, clippings in yet another, and where you can, move stacks around so you have the appearance of more space in the room. Success breeds success, and though it's hard to clear it out and hard to maintain, this foray into good housekeeping might just make the difference. I just finished building in some shelves in the closet of my office, and I'm putting the various class notes and essays up in general categories. I plan to thin these down one day, and I do plan to publish a few of the essays, and I'll get to that once I finish remodeling the house. For the first time in my life I feel like I can get to those projects.

Every few months I go through and put all of the paid bills away in a vertical file. Lately I've been pulling out stuff so old I can't possibly use it (and it isn't old enough to donate to a museum). Bobert, I have to ask you a question. Your stuff may be neat, but it may be considered by some compulsive that you still HAVE your 1983 tax return. Why are you still keeping it? Whether or not you can find it in 30 seconds, unless you think this is something that will benefit future generations to see how you lived and where your income went, only keep those tax returns for 7 years. I have things that date back further than that because they were significant from when I was married, and I might need them to document future claims, but there is only so much of that kind of stuff that you need to keep. I think you should set the example for your wife by pulling out your really old files and shredding them (and though I hate to shop at Walmart, the cross-cutting shredder sounds like a great value and is a better way to discard old papers than just making ribbons of them).

Good luck, both of you!

SRS "My name is Maggie and I'm a packrat..."

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: YOR
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:21 PM

Bobert and others,

I here ya, my wife is the same way. Between her many types of crafty stuff and Girl Scout/Leader stuff the whole house is a wreck. The living room woodstove hearth is this hugh storage corner right now. (Gee with this cold spell using it would be a plan.) She has all these empty plastic cases with lids that she bought to get organized and has never used them effectively. I've added many shelves to several closets to help the cause. How can she mess up the entire house?, I don't get it. She blames not having enough time because of working 40 to 45 hours a week and a fairly long drive, Girl Scout training and activities and many other excusses. She keeps asking for a big room of her own (You have the garage for you toys!) so she can have all her stuff in one place. Well, we ain't got that. When the kids and I get pissed enough we just box all her stuff up and shoot for one big pile. Honey!, you been packed up and moved out. Boy do I catch hell for that. I can't throw things away because she'll just go out and buy more. Hell, I do most of the cooking, most of the laundry, most of the cleaning, all the vacuuming, my son washes the dishes, trash and recycles for his weekly pay. Geeese!

OK, so when she is cleaning and organizing an area, the first thing that she finds that is mine or the kids she says "see, see, it's not all me". No dear, just 95.8%. Make mine and the kids small piles and we'll take care of it, period.

There is this big pile of stuff in the bedroom corner and along the wall. She says "Well I can't get to it, there's A guitar in the way." Honey, It's MOVEABLE!

Rant! Rant! Ahh! Breathe, Breathe.......Calm down Roy!

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:26 PM

I'm the pile driver in our family (oh, shut up, Spaw!) but we have a nice working relationship -- once a quarter BBW starts picking up things in the piles and asking me if I really want them or not and throwing them away if I hesitate for more than three milliseconds. Works for us.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:35 PM

Suggestion to ya'll living with messy unorganized people: have an organizing weekend. The whole family has to get involved and work, no excuses, no cheating, no sneaking out. There has to be a plan ahead of time, and the will to do whatever it takes. Shelves. Rearranging. Pulling everything out and starting over from scrach -- whatever. Take one room at a time if needed -- kitchen this weekend, bedroom next month, etc. Once everything is organized in a way that everyone is happy with, it'll be easier to keep it that way.

And then there are those people who just can't stand organization no matter how good it is for them. If you give them their own space to be messy in (a spare bedroom, a corner of the family room, etc.) and agree not to ever nag them about it, you might just get peace everywhere else in the house -- or at least you can box it up and dump it in their "office!" :)

Roy... have you considered converting the garage into an office space? Maybe your tools on one side and her stuff on the other?

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: YOR
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:32 PM

Nicole,

Your suggestion of having your own space is what we've been thinking about for a few months. Our backroom off the kitchen is for daily eating and diningroom usage as well as homework, boardgames, laundry and crafts. The big table works great for that, along with the stereo and 13" TV makes for a nice area. Were thinking about two cabinets where she can store all her craft stuff. Get it out, take over the table for a time and "I hope" put it away. The cabinets will have to be on wheels or casters because they will need to be rolled out of the room a couple of times a year for events like holiday meals.

The garage idea won't cut it for her stuff. The garage is detached from the house and unheated when not in use. Its a car 1/2 woodshop that has never seen a car. I hope to add a small garden shed sometime in the future to get the lawn mower, garden tools and bikes out of my way.

Enjoy, Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:46 PM

When I converted my attached garage into an office and sunroom I put a deep bay window and a door into the space where the garage door had previously existed. These three windows let in a lot of good light into that sunroom, and though it's more like a large mudroom now, acting as a staging area for remodelling in the rest of the house, it is my goal to use this room primarily for crafts and sewing. I built a wide and shallow (about 12 inches deep) set of shelves in on the wall perpendicular to the windows, and we hung a mirrored closet door on it. Though not everything will fit in there, a great deal does, plus the glass reflects light and make the room look very large. I'll put some shelves up on another wall when I get to the point where I can finish this room (no floor tile down yet, it's the last room I'll tile). We're all looking forward to using this space as designed, though we have some access now. It keeps the beads, glue, paint, markers, scraps of fabric, etc., out of the rest of the house, which is a real plus.
SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM

Roy, Roy, Roy....

Jeeze 'O Pete, brother. You and I could spend a month or two swappin' pile stories.

Have you shown this thread to your wife? I tried to show it to the P-Vine but all that did was get the ol' gal really cranked up. But, even without her reading it, I did notice her actually throw a few old catalogs away. Now, 10,116 more and we'll have a catalog-free home. Wierd thing is that she rarely buys anything from a catalog so why she need a 10,116 of 'em is way beyond me.

I remember once when I was working as a social worker getting a referral to see this old lady who was living in a house in South Richmond. Well, I went to see her, knocked on the door to find the poor woman living in a space about the size of a jail cell with the rest of the house completely filled with old newspapers. there were 18 inches walk ways thru the house but other than the one chair on the little area by the front door and the toilet there was not one place to sit. That woman even slept in that chair. Hey, don't ask me. I passed the referral onto adult protective services because her piles were endangering her life. Whew.

Hope it doesn't get to that with us, Roy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 02:02 PM

Bobert,

I had a friend who lived that way, and it finally took family and friends coming in and literally excavating. She was very unhappy as she saw her precious magazines and catalogs disappear, never mind that she hadn't been able to reach them for ages. She liked the look of the cleaned up house, and had a lot more room, but started building a pile again almost immediately.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: YOR
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:29 PM

Bobert, I have not showed this thread to my wife. Maybe I will if I see her on the Internet and she looks to be in a real good mood. Maybe she'll except this as comedy. It really is nothing different than I have actual said to her many times over. She keeps saying she has to do this and that, I told her last night she needed to get rockin and rolling around here, as she went off to bed at 9:00 to watch TV.

I got a story for ya. My boss is always bitching about his wife just like us. From what I here she is a master at mess and clutter. Yard sales o man she loves yard sales. She buy VHS tapes at Walmart in the 10 packs and records about every movie on TV/cable, boxes everywhere, ain't enough shelves in a library to store the things. Never rewatches anything. So my boss builds this shed in his backyard, big thing, its' a beauty 12x12/16 something like that. This will help make more room in the garage for the cars. He wanted it for lawn mowers, garden tools and his little workshop of his own. Dream come true all your tools in one place. While he's at work his wife is home, she doesn't work, never has. His wife decided to clean up some in the house. She filled the shed about 6 feet deep in stuff/boxes. He had to bust his butt just to get the lawn mower out. Dream GONE!

I got home from work last night and went out to the garage right away to start the kerosene heater. More of a hand warmer than room heater for this amount of time. I'll run the thing all night on a Friday night in order to have a comfortable shop for Saturday morning coffee. After dinner I went out to the garage, I had alittle trash I had earmarked over the weekend to get rid of on trash day if there was room in the trash dumpsters we use. House trash comes first, it smells. I went wild, filled my trash dumpster and had a small pile next to it and then started on my next door neighbors', filled his too. He knows I do this anytime I need to, he always has all his trash out by 6 or 8:00.

It felt GREAT! New square footage and cubic footage. YEAH!

I'll have to show my wife!

Enjoy, Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM

Give her a couple glasses of wine first, 'er you might end up loosing that space that you just liberated. You know how these womenz are: "What's mine is mine and what yours is mine too.".

Whaddayathink, Mrs. Roy?

Opps, now ya can't show her this thread or she'll know that we got them womenz figgured out and then they'll just change the signals and we'll have to start all over again.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: jimlad
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 03:11 PM

Cumbria where men are men and the women are too!!

Go to the Old Hall in Egremont if you don't believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: GUEST,Charmion at work
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 04:19 PM

Oh, God, the memories.

My mother was like the muddlier people discussed in this thread, and I grew up in a great big house so choked with stuff that it took me the better part of 10 years to get rid of the excess after my mother died. Books, papers, furniture, china -- you name it; the woman never threw away so much as a doorknob. One of the biggest fights we ever had (and we had some doozies) exploded when I was home on leave from Germany: I bundled up the newspapers stacked hip-high in every corner of the dining room and put them out for the garbage collection -- in the rain. She never forgave me for ruining them.

My mother died in September 1980 and my father sold the family house soon after, but didn't close the deal until July 31, 1981 -- that's how long it took to sort the shit out so he could actually move. I vividly remember the day I cleared out the cellar -- the job was too big for me (and I was a real tough declutterer by then), so I hired two men with a truck, who tried to quit after their fourth trip to the dump but I wouldn't let them. As I swept the floor after they finally finished (six trips to the dump), I realized that I hadn't seen the cellar floor since 1965.

Neatness is a blessing that one never appreciates until one has had to live without it. Fortunately, I am married to a well-brought-up, understanding soul who grinds his teeth and smiles tolerantly when I start nagging him to put things away; lesser men would have barricaded themselves behind defensive works of library books and newspaper stacks long since.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM

Well, I am feeling a little guilt here and need to be straight with everyone. I am a collector myself. Just not a paper piler. I collect lots of stuff I shouldn't and well, even before the P-Vine, people would come into the house and their jaws would drop in disbelief. But it wasn't messy. Ahhh, just full. But *no* piles.

There, glad I got that off my chest.

The truth will set ya' free.

But piles, now?...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: annamill
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:54 PM

Hey Bobert??? Are you really my husband and Honey?? Come on, give it up. I know it's you Glenn! And don't you touch my piles!!

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: YOR
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:33 PM

OK, I'll confess too!

Hi my name is Roy, and I collect.

I collect music CD's and I'm approaching 500. They are very organized, hell, alphabetical order by artist (for the most part) and listed in a database. I can find any CD in seconds if its' in the same room. I keep CD's in two places at home and then there is the work and wifes car rotating sets. I just finished a 6 shelf solid walnut wall shelf that holds 210. The first 4 shelf'er 3 years ago holds 92.

The kids and I collect VHS movies and well now DVD's. A 5 shelf unit was built along with the CD shelf for both DVD/VHS. Didn't count how many it holds, its big, about the size of the window its' beside.

Years of "Fine Woodworking" magazines. I'm purging the "Consumer Reports" I saved for some stupid reason. All other mags get trashed in time.

I have a shot glass collection. The pine glass doored wall cabinet in the livingroom holds about 120, its 13 years old. The rest are boxed up or on the shelves of my secretary desk until the new walnut cabinet in the works is finished. 84 feet of router edges, so cool.

My tools don't count, they get used.

My PILE(S) of wood don't count. That stock.

Oh course guitars don't count. I have 3.

Do I pass or fail?

Enjoy, Roy

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM

She blames not having enough time because of working 40 to 45 hours a week and a fairly long drive, Girl Scout training and activities and many other excusses. Roy, I expect it has occurred to you that 40-45 hours working, 5 hours a week for the long drives, 5 hours a week for Girl Scouts, 2 1/2 hours a week socializing with her family, a few hours for maintaining friendships and other aimless activities, then add another 45 hours for sleep to her schedule and this is one busy woman.

Maybe when she comes home each day, a designate could be appointed to go through what she brought home, dividing it into pre-existing categories, i.e. stuff that goes back to the office 'tomorrow', stuff she needs to look at over the weekend, stuff that is a 'keeper'; you get the idea. Just have a firm agreement that nothing will be thrown away without her giving it a last look.

Bobert, how about buying a cabinet with lots of shelves and drawers. She can stuff her things in there and close the door on it. Then when the urge hits her from time to time, she can drag a large garbage can to it, and go through a bunch of shelves.

One thing that is a quick fix is to slide each pile into a paper grocery bag, then chuck each bag into a designated area. I've done that when I needed a quick tidy up because someone was coming over. The downside is that I never know what particular thing is in which particular bag. But that tends to be an upside too, because I never seem to miss the stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:01 PM

I remember a booklet my mother gave me when I was 12 or 13, I would guess. It gave a lot of very useful information, such as "after meals, rise and stand by your chair ready to follow your mother's instructions"...

And I also remember it telling me that "when you go to bed, lie down decently and straight, keeping your hands out from under the covers." (I've always loved the phrase since: decently and straight LOL.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:24 PM

Carmion, the situation you described sounds more like an illness than just basic messiness. A friend recently had to sort the hoard of stuff her father had accumulated in their basement, and they were astonished to find hundreds of hand tools and pocket knives, collected in obsessive redundancy. They packed up a good set of tools for each family member and took the rest to sell at a flea market. If they had known of this stash, they'd have realized he needed help.

My parents were both children of the Depression and had a lot of stuff around. Mom had sorted through and discarded and given us a lot before she died. Dad just stuck broken or obsolete things in a shed where they accumulated, perhaps with the thought that they could be repaired. It was a huge job to sell and/or discard after he died.
Now I have a lot of stuff from both parents, and from great aunts who left antiques to me, and I'm slowly finding places to put all of this in this house I'm still remodeling (I moved in a year ago March). My kids know that where there are redundancies we are going to pack clearly labelled boxes and they'll go in the attic or garage for the day when the kids are ready to head off to a place of their own. Kitchen gadgets, bathtowels, some small pieces of furniture will all keep until they need them. I built storage space into my garage to avoid paying rental on units.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Shape up you women...right now!
From: bflat
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 11:34 PM

I am speaking as an American woman when I address the cultural edicts of the time which prevailed. It was not unusual for women to establish a sense of civility and decorum as they moved from the rough and tumble period of great immigration waves to perhaps a second or third generation of Americans. This brought about a need to conform to an expection of "proper" behavior. Role behavior was significant from a social norm and imperative as an economic norm. The behavior sighted in Rick's entre speaks solely to that. I do believe women were unaware of their potential in large number, and were struggling in the post-WWII era to define their role. Economics are, to my way of thinking, the driver to modern roles.

Ellen