BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US

Subject: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:12 PM

I have noticed in recent months, that whenever the Republican economic agenda is condemned for being overly beneficial to the wealthiest Americans at the expense of middle class and working poor Americans, that the Republican response is to use a retort that centers around the term "class warfare" as a means of demonizing anyone who opposes the Republican agenda for wealthy Americans, the Ken Lays, and tax evading corporations.

Anyone else flinch when they hear this term used in this context?

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:33 PM

Hey, GUEST, whats up?

Yeah, first time I heard it I thought to myself, "Hmmmmmmmm, self, I wonder how many years will I have to work to pay enough taxes to pay the PR firm that came up with that little jewel for the Republicans?"

The governemnt won't tell us how much of out tax dollars are going into manipulating public opinion but it's a ton of money. I heard that the PR campaign to sell Bush's invasion of Iraq is in the $20M range.

But really, much the way that the Republican party demonized the word "liberal" they have now fired a shot accross the bow to anyone who would dare criticize this proposed mugging of the working class. See, that's where the Democrats are weak. They just sit back and take it rather than throw it back at Bush and Co.

I would have promptly lobed that grenade back accross the fence with something along the lines of, "And your point? I mean you have proposed another robbery of the working man. If you want to call it class warfare when the working man says "Heck no, you've takne enough" than call it class warfare. Call it jello. Mightm of fact, why not dig up Joe McCarthey and have him call it communism. It doesn't change the fact the it's another assualt on the working families of America!"

Yeah, that would have been my response and then let them take their rather broken slogan back to the PR folks for a little warrenty work.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: GUEST,nathan
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM

i would say class warfare to be a good thing....

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 05:55 PM

Here's how the working people of Argentina handled that sort of thing in their country according to Le Monde diplomatique. This article is a year old, though.

According to
this story from Reuters, the US government is proposing to bribe ...I mean assist Israel, Jordan, and Turkey with $30 billion (yes, I said billion) if we attack Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:29 PM

Yeah, the carrot and club approach to diplomacy. When you offer monetary incentives for support and severe economic sanctions against those who say NO, not too many can hold out.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:45 PM

The Credo of republican spin rhetoric is to accuse the opposition of the very thing the republicans are guilty of.

It works every time. Think about it.

Once you put the opposition into a defensive mode, the arguement branches off into "no we don't" instead of what the issue was originally.

Also notice how the talking head put down artists interject an untrue remark about the demeanor of the opposition just to make them mad and thereby make it come true.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Alice
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:46 PM

I flinch when I hear the term CLASS applied to Americans. Middle INCOME, upper INCOME, lower INCOME, yes... but America was hopefully going to be a country of equals, not different classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 06:55 PM

The Republicans refer to it as class warfare because the Democrats always drag out that argument (tax cuts only benefit the rich)everytime a Republican president proposes giving more of the tax payers money back to the tax payers. Their hope, of course, is to convince voters that "they" are the champions of the "little folks," and the Republicans are their enemy.

If the Democrats wouldn't lay that lie onto the taxpayers, the Republican argument would be unnecessary.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jan 03 - 07:48 PM

Dougie:

80% of the tax cuts to the top 10%? Come on, Doug. You can run but you can't hide.

Hey, how much did the new PR phrase that Paul Wuff-owitz brought out for a spin tonight: "Waepons of Mass Terrorism"? $2M? $3M... Hey, I'm paying those taxes and so is everyone here at Mudact. Doesn't it make anyone mad that the entire amount of taxes that all the Mudcatters pay in their life times has just gone to some PR firm to come up with such a juvenile little slogan? Pisses my the heck off. I get up and go to work 6 days a week and have for the last 30 years and I scrap and scrounge and sacrifice to pay these taxes and to have them spent on PR to convince me that going off to kill a bunch of innocent civilians, when diplomacy has not been attempted by this madman, is in my best interest... makes me sick!

I want my tax bucks to go toward helping people, not brainwashing them...

Beam me up...

Bobert





Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:32 AM

Doug, my friend, you can't argue with history. The republican party has always benefitted the wealthy. The democrats have pased major legislation to benefit the less fortunate. Laws such as:
Child labor
Minimum wage
Social security
Medicare
Medicaid
Mine safety
The democrats created labor unions, the unions created the middle class.
The list is long, and the republicans have fought every piece of this type of legislation tooth and nail.
Tax cuts? who did the last one benefit? Not me! I paid in a hell of a lot more than I got back, just like the wealthy. Only difference is, it was so small it amounted to zip, but, it destroyed the surplus. I used to think Bush was stupid, now, I believe him to be a sociopath, and the most dangerous man in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: TIA
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:06 PM

Donuel is absolutely right:

They say that the opposition is for intrusive government, but they want to legislate what goes on in your bedroom or womb.

They said they were against using the US military as the world's police force, and now what are they incessantly drumming for?

They pretend to be the party of the working class and constantly deride "the elites", but who do their economic moves benefit every dang time?

They accuse the opposition of being "mean spirited" and partisan, but has anyone listened to Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, North, Liddy, ......? (Okay try to name the "liberal" counterpart to those dudes...)

They say that the opposition are "big spenders", but who has presided over tides of red ink?

They crawl right up Clinton's chute to find any whiff of misdeed (well, Okay, there were plenty), but claim that the workings of this administration deserve "executive privilege".

They lay the working man over a log (sorry Bobert, it's not a mugging, it's Deliverance), and when he complains, they accuse him of class warfare!?!?

There are more, but I'm supposed to be working....

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:37 PM

I'm not even close to being rich - but according to the IRS stuff the postman just brought me, the tax for my bracket is $600 less than it was last year...

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:47 PM

Kim: Surely it's a mistake! You're paying LESS than last year? Horrors! You are defanging Bobert, TIA, Donuel and several others! I'm sure they will have to pay more because you are paying less!

:>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:49 PM

Recent polls (in which Bush keeps sliding lower) also tell us that a majority of Americans think the Bush tax cut is the wrong direction for the country to go in to solve our current economic problems. When asked, they say they don't believe they are paying too much money in taxes--for the first time since polling began.

So if people are finally catching on that it takes tax dollars to pay for the services we all have grown accustomed to expecting our government to provide for us, then perhaps we will soon (within the next election cycle or two perhaps?) see a return to the true center in American political and economic life--a center where we truly balance what we get for what we pay.

Wealthy people don't need tax cuts, or government services. They are wealthy, and can afford to pay for anything they want or need. That isn't true for the rest of us, and it is we who are the majority in this country, and in every country. We are the ones who benefit from a strong, fair, and accessible health care system, from public education, etc. not the wealthy.

And don't even get me going on the Enrons that don't pay a dime in taxes to support the society from which they reap their obscene and illegal profits.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:31 PM

Well, they didn't ask me.

I'm 35 years old and in all my years of paying income tax, I have gotten a refund twice. Twice. Every year I can count on sending the IRS an extra check, even though I claim NO EXEMPTIONS on withholding. Don't even get me started about the year we had to pay $1380 EXTRA. That was a long time ago, when Mister and I actually claimed exemptions on withholding. After that, we quit.

Our household income is WELL under $100K and always has been.

I would much rather have the extra money in my pocket so I can put it into my local economy.

I wonder what would happen if we stopped paying legislators a 6-figure salary, and just paid them an hourly wage and a stipend for their travel expenses? Sure, you want to get qualified people for the job - but a 6-figure salary? I mean, really. If I made HALF of what they make, I'd be sitting pretty.

If we cut some of the money out of fluff like that, we'd have more to spend on services that matter. Gosh, what a concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:37 PM

Kim: using GUEST's logic, we shouldn't pay our politicians at all. Most of them are rich. They couldn't afford to be politicians if they weren't.

However, rich folks are American citizens just like us poor folks, GUEST. As such, they are just as eligible to receive government benefits as us poor folks. Also, they are paying the lions-share of the cost of the benefits you would deny them receiving.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:15 PM

Show me the numbers that the wealthy pay the majority of taxes in this country DougR. Show me the numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 04:55 PM

A cautionary tale from my locality, illustrating a principle that even fairly intelligent people often fail to grasp:—

Here in Seattle we have a gink by the name of Tim Eyman. He keeps putting forth voter initiatives limiting the city, county, and state governments' ability to levy taxes, and rolling back taxes that already exist. Since it saves them a nickel here and a dime there, the voters keep voting for Eyman's initiatives. For example, one of his first initiatives rolled back the annual automobile license tab fees from the $30.00 registration fee plus an excise tax based on the blue-book value of the automobile. Now it's a $30.00 registration fee and no excise tax. The excise tax, plus some gasoline taxes, paid for street and highway maintenance and subsidized the Puget Sound ferry system. Many commuters who work in Seattle but live in Bremerton or on Bainbridge or Vashon Islands depend on the ferry system to get to work every day. They voted for it. Then—they squeal like scalded pigs when the pot-holes don't get fixed and the ferry fares have to go up thirty or forty percent just to keep the boats running. But Eyman keeps putting forth initiatives cutting taxes and the voters keep voting for them. Every time one passes, more services get cut (e.g. the Seattle Public Library has had to lay off a bunch of people and reduce it's hours). Fire Department. Police Department. You name it, they're all taking a hit.

What happens on the local level also happens on the national level. Cut taxes and you also cut services. The people this hits the hardest are the people who can least afford it.

The Law of Cause and Effect seems to escape a lot of people.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM

A puzzler is how a tax cut can be justified because times are good and there is a projected surplus while on the other hand a tax cut can be justified on the basis of boosting the economy. As someone said somewhere, if we just plain abolished taxes, we'd get along swimmingly...

I'm reading a very good book, written by Chris Hedges, a war reporter for many years. It's called 'WAR - a Force That Gives Us Meaning'. Among much else, he talks about the rhetoric of war and how difficult it is not to get sucked into its mindset.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:00 PM

Does anyone really think that if we paid no taxes that the country would still float as it does now? Bush said, in regards to his tax cut, "I trust the American people" Yeah, right, take your meds george.The average American has no concept of what this clown is up to.
Why is he so horny to go to war with Iraq? OIL, thats why. How come we dont go to war with a much greater enemy, North Korea? NO oil.
It's fortunate that many who swallowed his crap are starting to wise up, and his popularity is headed for the cellar.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM

...where it should have been all along.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:35 PM

I notice DougR is a cur that craps on the sidewalk and moves on.
The most important thing about his arguement is noticing that it is there on the sidewalk so the rest of us don't step in it.

Tax breaks for the rich is virtually a diversion compared to the trillions running into the pockets of CEOs and military industrialist pockets.

Hey we have the government they paid for. We have the national electronic voting machines built by republican Texas companies.
We will pay for their war unless a miracle of world wide consensus against Bush becomes even more powerful.

In 15 years the rhetoric of the right wing put down artist will be viewed like a Tokyo Rose.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Sam L
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:18 PM

Doug R, yes that was the basic idea of democracy, originally, that those who were well off would give something back. What offends you about that? What's wrong with that? What if we didn't pay them? We'd wind up only with people who believed in what they were doing? Yikes. Or pay them what an infantry soldier and his or her life is worth. Who can give back more than that? But then, where would we be without cynicism and mendacity in our government?

   I'll trade taxes with you Kim C, but I warn you, I wouldn't have thought to mention 100K.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Sam L
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:48 PM

Doug R, your best friend fred miller again. I don't want to offend any old-school liberals, but for me, the greatest leader of the Soviet Union was the guy who took it apart. First one who wasn't just a thug. (Whoops.) I think he made about what a middling college professor made, maybe 30k, or so.
   And in some other countries a ceo of a company has to actually do well for the company, or they don't even get big raises and bonuses. It's sad. The thing about right wing rhetoric is it makes even basic common sense things that should bridge the political wings sound like wild and crazy ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:34 PM

Doug is not a cur. He has his opinions, and they are as good as mine..well, almost.

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:48 PM

I concur that DougR is a Non-Cur. He's just another opinionated sumbitch with too damn much time to fool around on this forum, just like that wise-assed old fart who sneaks into my shaving mirror every morning and ruins the view!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Right wing rhetoric in the US
From: leprechaun
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:38 AM

Well I think Doug is the Roi de Cur.

But the rest of you are droppings.