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Subject: Guest ? From: Strupag Date: 23 Jan 03 - 08:55 PM I first got in contact with Mudcat about a year ago and have been happy to join in with what I found was a big happy family - not without it's problems. I gradually did become to feel that I could proudly proclaim that I was a Mudcatter! Which brings me to my thread; Why are there so many guest contributions. I'm certainly not against, them but why don't they join once they have found the discussions relevant. I can understand why a first time contributer uses GUEST but sureley if Guest decides to carry on on the argument he/she should have the decency to join up. Since joining up I have not been swamped with Porn E-mail! WOW it's Braw Tae Be A MuDWheeker! |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: smallpiper Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:08 PM ITs all to do with the fre will thing............................ its inefable |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: khandu Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:13 PM Sometimes, members lose their cookie and either forget to reset or are too lazy to reset.Then, they are listed as "Guest". I have been guilty of the latter too many times. As to the others who choose not to join, I can't imagine why. k |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:18 PM If you knew how some members were treated, you would know why many prefer to be "Guests" |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:22 PM Hi, Strupag. We try to welcome everybody, and we understand that newcomers and occasional visitors may be reluctant to register. That's why we allow people to post as guests. Unfortunately, we have some people who abuse their guest privileges, and take advantage of their anonymity. They seem to be here chiefly to cause trouble, to take potshots at people under the cover of namelessness - like an unseen sniper shooting into a crowd. Since people don't know who they are or how many they are, they feel defenseless. In one of the Help threads, McGrath of Harlow made a good point: A basic rule in life is that, any time you criticise someone else, you should identify yourself.I think that makes sense. If unnamed people behave themselves, Mudcatters respond to them very well - although there's a natural tendency to group all unnamed persons with the many anonymous posts that are intended to cause trouble. It's best to type in a name, even if you aren't registered. If our Guests are here to be obnoxious and to take advantage of their anonymity, there's no reason why anybody should try to make them feel welcome. Welcome to Mudcat, Strupag. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST, Dale Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:29 PM This is something that irks me at least a little bit. I CHOOSE to be a guest. I think that is my right. If what I have to say is interesting to you, read it. If it isn't, don't read it. It's as simple as that. I will say the same things whether I am a guest or a member. Maybe it is a bit of obstinate behavior on my part, but I don't think it is a matter of decency at all. Dale Rose ~~ who hasn't posted as a member in quite a long while, and who usually stays out of such threads. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Strupag Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:33 PM I would understand it if, as in the old Broadsheets, the guest were allowed to remain annonimous which is understandable. There is no justification for this in the new Mudcat era. In Mudcat, however, the main contencious issues are, in the main part, raised by people who are established Mudcatters. It pisses me offrt in a wee bit about people who continue on a thread and still don't join in. Let's get a campaigne started! |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST, Dale Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:35 PM Sorry Strupag, I don't mean to direct my irritation at you, merely voicing my opposition to the idea that what I have to say is somehow less valuable because I choose to be a guest. You are not the first to make this sort of comment, believe me. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Tinker Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:36 PM There are folks who simply prefer to avoid cookies or post from work where it would be forbidden. Many of them post consistently with the same name and I tend to just think of Guest as part of their name. Others change identities as quickly as threads can reload and seem to come looking to get a good brawl going. My patience level unfortuately fluxes with the demands of the real world. But there are legitimate reasons to not member. IMHO Kathy |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:42 PM Dale posts mostly in music threads, and he is an extraordinary resource and a good friend. He usually puts his name on his posts, too. He's not the kind of Guest people complain about. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Bobert Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:49 PM Hey, I like GUEST's. It's like going to a Holloween Party and everyone is in some kind of disguise. Hey, after awhile, you purdy much know who's who or... ahh, don't care. That's the way it is with GUEST's. I know most of them by their writing styles and opinionsw. I'm sure they have their easons for remaining as GUEST's and that is their business. Now, Flamers are Flamers. We're all grown up here and know the difference. The joint would not be the same without GUEST's. That's my take... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: mack/misophist Date: 23 Jan 03 - 09:55 PM My answer to the question is - it took me a long time to apply for a cookie, simply because, like Mycroft Holmes, I am not a 'clubable man'. The only other way I compare to is in girth. I don't like joining. Anything. When I registered to vote I "declined to state". |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Cluin Date: 23 Jan 03 - 10:39 PM Well, Strupag, I've not gotten any more spam since joining. Not gotten any less either... But here's a suggestion. What I did was register for one of those free web-based email addresses, like at Yahoo or Hotmail or Bigfoot or whatever. The Web's full of them; a search will turn up tons. (mine is cluin@yahoo.com I've been using the nickname Cluin since I came on line several years ago) Then you use that e-mail address on the web or on Usenet or in forums (even high quality ones like this) or whereever some on-line form asks for an e-mail address (including product registration, warrantees, etc.). Those bots that search out addresses on the web are relentless and getting cleverer every day. Keep your regular at-home e-dress secret except for family and friends and business associates. Ask them not to give it out to anyone else you don't know either (I ask them to avoid using it for e-cards too. I'm not convinced they are all reliable). Then you check your webmail address once in a while. The vast bulk of it will be junk you can delete sight-unseen. Your regular e-mail box won't get clogged up with spam and unwanted attachments that you will have to download first just to delete and get to the stuff you want to read. I get almost no spam in my regular e-mail box. The only junk I've ever gotten has been that Nigerian Bank scam letter. I have no idea how they found my address... One more hint... you know where those spam letters give an address you can reply to to "unsubscribe" from their mailing list. Well, DON'T! All that does is supply your e-mail address to the database that they sell to other spammers. Just grit your teeth and delete it. If you're already flooded every day with spam, there's no recourse except to change your e-mail address and start over, following the directions above. The bastards have already tagged you and the shit will never leave you alone. Sorry, but them's the breaks. Live and learn. That's what I had to do (a couple of times). |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 03 - 11:15 PM There will always be Guests. Why worry about it? I'll say this, though, one can't PM a Guest, and sometimes that is pretty inconvenient. It also helps when Guests use a particular name, so you have some idea which "guest" you are talking to on what occasion. It has often amused me that any Guest under the sun could pretend he was any other Guest.... "GUEST,.Gargoyle" for example, and then post a thread apologizing for being such an @$$hole all the time, and then what would the real Gargoyle do about it? Post another thread denying the apology? Then the first Guest could deny the denial, and so on, and so on, and so on.... That is one very good reason for being a member, if you ask me. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: JennyO Date: 24 Jan 03 - 02:17 AM When I found Mudcat, I posted as GUEST,JennyO for a couple of weeks, and then when I got a ROUND TUIT, I joined. I like some of the extra features you have as a member, such as PM's and tracing threads, and I do think that it is good that when I say something, everyone will know it is me saying it. It hasn't made any difference to how much SPAM I get either. I agree that while you are a guest, it would be better to give yourself a name after the GUEST tag, to save confusion, although I agree with Bobert that you do get to know some of the writing styles of certain guests after a while. Anonymous flamers and trolls - well I try to avoid them! |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST,Jane Bird Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:11 AM I appear as Guest:Jane Bird because: 1) I used to be registered, but have since lost that cookie, as I transfered to an entirely different computer network. 2) I am only an occasional contributer, so it's no both to type my name once in a while. Jane
-Joe Offer (click to e-mail)- |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST,Jane Bird Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:13 AM Is is, however, a great bother to tpe my wods completly today, it seems. Sory. J |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: open mike Date: 24 Jan 03 - 05:33 AM When person posting on mudcat refuses to reveal their true identity I take offense at that, and consider it a cowardly act. If they are hiding behind the Guest mask in order to be rude, obnoxious, and derogatory that is just a cop-out and unfair to all of us on here. the only legitimate reason i can see for logging on with other than your identifying "handle" is for secret santa purposes. Many, including moi, do not use their real and or legal name here. I see no problem with that, but it is part of the fun here, inventing a persona that can represent you in the exchanges here. AS i often see reminders: don't feed the trolls |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Bagpuss Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:34 AM Smallpiper, are you reading Good Omens by any chance? |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: IanC Date: 24 Jan 03 - 06:48 AM I think Max's attitude to Guest posting is essentially correct. I have asked him if it wouldn't be a good idea to make a Guest type something into the From box, as it would help us to get better a handle where there is more than one guest posting at the same time (the confusion can be due to maliciousness, but this is pretty rare). He told me he'd consider it but didn't apparently feel it was worthwhile doing this, so I'm happy to go with his decision. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Rapparee Date: 24 Jan 03 - 07:33 AM I don't object to thoughtful GUESTs. It's the trolls and flamers that annoy me: if you aren't willing to stand behind your opinions with a name or nickname, you can't think highly of your own opinions. Also, if you are a member, why not complete a profile (yes, I know there are good reasons not to do so). |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Snuffy Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:52 AM Not all trolls and flamers are guests! |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: kendall Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM Personally, I feel that I'm a member of a fine group, and, like a family member, I use my own name. I wouldn't go to a family gathering wearing a mask. Now, if I were a woman, and had been attacked, I might well hide behind a false name. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: JennyO Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:07 AM And not all guests are trolls and flamers. However, a lot of trolls and flamers do use the anonymity that posting as a guest provides, for obvious reasons. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:08 AM Historically, the GUEST label was created because some flamers had taken to signing their posting with other people's handles, something that can't be done if you're a member. To me, the only objection to GUEST postings is that one can't respond to a particular posting. If a guest wishes to sign in as, say, "GUEST,dick greenhaus", I have no problem at all (except that I'm dick greenhaus and I'm a member.) |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST,ClaireBear Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:19 AM I'm a newish guest, and I look forward to becoming a member as soon as I connect my *home* PC to the net, which may be awhile yet. I've developed the habit of hanging out here as I work -- which is ok when there's not a lot of work to do (now, say), but could get dicey later -- and I'd rather not perpetuate that nasty habit by tying my membership to this PC! But I'll stick with the same guest name til I join, promise. Claire |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: paulo Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:29 PM OK. I've worked out that a flamer is someone who just like to stir the s**t. But what's a troll Paulo |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: MMario Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:33 PM more correctly using that metaphor - a troll stirs, a flamer flings. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 03 - 12:41 PM A troll is someone who "trolls for controversy using "flamebait". It is a fishing analogy, if that is any help. One uses bait to troll to catch a fish. So a troll is someone who puts out a statement/post that they know will draw "flames" from people who the subject ignites passions in, or otherwise gets people worked up, that sort of thing. As others have wisely pointed out, using other people's online "handle" or "label" or "name" (whether known, pseudonymous, or anonymous) isn't a reliable indicator of whether or not a person is a flamer sort of personality, a troll sort of personality, some combination of the two (which I would argue is the way most people are online), or neither. However, just because someone loves to court controversy doesn't make them evil. Many people with such intense personalities are quite passionate in the ways they present their views, is all. Now, in "polite society" those types of people are rarely welcome. Hence, the negative reactions. To me, the sin isn't in the courting controversy. It is in the subject matter (ie is it racist, etc or pointedly personal for no good reason--I believe there are good reasons for some posters to get pointedly personal with other posters on occassion), delivery style, that sort of thing. I find in life that we are all jerks some of the time. The people I tend to avoid are those who are jerks most of the time, which may or may not have to do with their flaming and trolling proclivities. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: *daylia* Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:01 PM "I find in life that we are all jerks some of the time." GUEST, I resemble that remark! Like others mentioned above, it took me awhile to convince myself to join Mudcat because (a) I'm a very reluctant 'joiner' of any group no matter how much I like them, and (b) Mudcat was one of my first Internet experiences and I was nervous about compromising my privacy on the world-wide web. But I have no regrets, and no spam to complain about, and most of the time I'm a purrrrrr-fectly content 'Cat these days! Happy I joined - daylia |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Bill D Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:12 PM the guest controversy has been with us a long time. Joe Offer has laid it out pretty well above...I am one of the strongest objectors to totally anonymous posting, as I consider it rude and inconsiderate. (and I still would love to see a day when EVERYONE respsonding to a troll would post as 'guest', just to show how chaotic it would be.) Dale Rose chooses not to be a 'member', but he usually signs his name, and I have no problem with that..slightly disappointed, but not offended. I have no problem with unusual names, web-based throw-away email...etc...I just want a consistant 'handle' so I can follow a complex discussion properly. I am convinced that at least a couple of 'guests' also post as members at times, but resort to anonymity to criticize and complain. I also have a couple of guesses about who they are. There is one 'ghost' who jumps into almost every thread about Mudcat fund raising to insinute that funds are being misused and that we are getting little value for our money, and I'll tell you...it would be very interesting if I were to meet THAT person face-to-face! I try to make it a rule to not respond directly to trolls, but the urge is sometimes too strong...*sigh*..... |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: CarolC Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:21 PM (and I still would love to see a day when EVERYONE respsonding to a troll would post as 'guest', just to show how chaotic it would be.) I believe that one's already been done, Bill. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Amos Date: 24 Jan 03 - 01:35 PM JennyO: I am very glad you finally found and procured that ROUND TUIT, and was wondering if I could borrow it. I have a number of important projects which are currently in stasis because of my inability to get one, and the Tuits I have been able to get all seem to be long and thin and point indefinitely off into the future. A round one would suit my purposes perfectly, and I have just about given up on getting one for some of these projects. I really only need one, because I figure I can use it over and over on different tasks. How much would you rent yours for? A |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:02 PM I am a guest because I was banished from Max's Kingdom.
In the days before membership and cookies we all just logged in, and I was gargoyle. (little "g" as homage to the style of the noble "dick greenhouse."
(Posting and design were less user friendly then, try the Library of Congress "WayBack Machine" at "archive.org" for a sample of the Mudcat's 1997/98/99 design.)
Max/Joe became more than a little miffed about my controversial style, and were concerned about complaints from a menagre of newly arrived, thin-skinned critters. Their patience came to an end near St. Patrick's Day in regard to a "Little Armalite" thread and the brewha it developed.
Their ingenious software solution to the situation was that the name gargoyle could not be entered into a thread title.
My hack around it was to use a a comma, period, umlaut, apostrophe, or tildee, to circumvent the block.
Hence, most official "gargoyle" postings generally have a period in front of the name. Many also continue to use the traditional html style.
Sincerely,
Proud to be a GUEST, since polite society always accords guests more respect than family. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:07 PM The solution Joe Unfortunately, we have some people who take advantage of their anonymity is simple.
Behind each posting's FROM - have the system add the reference address - people will become as quick to identify repeating numbers as they will name.
Make it "open code" "open source" - share it all - no need to keep it only on the log.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Clean Supper Date: 25 Jan 03 - 06:24 AM I posted once as a guest and have now become a member. I don't own a computer, though, so I am using a public computer and it might not allow me to keep a permanent cookie. If I have to reset the cookie each time, I think I will probably give up on that and be a guest whenever I submit anything. I imagine I will always use the same name, though. I don't know what people's (valid and sociable) reasons might be for sending completely anonymous postings but in cases other than troublemakers, I don't see any problem. I think the issue is flames and trolls, not guests. Apart from anything else, membership does NOTHING to guarantee friendly and civil discussion unless Max were to start monitoring people's messages and reprimanding and ultimately removing people deemed flames or trolls. That would be a horrid path to go down. I don't think there is any reason we can't respond factually to slander and misrepresentation and ignore other inflammatory stuff (though it will always be one of those hurtful things in our day). |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: leprechaun Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:16 PM Amos - I had a round one, but it rolled away. You must be careful when using it on an incline. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Bill D Date: 25 Jan 03 - 04:48 PM gargoyle could easily be a member if he chose. He knows a LOT about how the WWW functions and has 6 years of experience here at Mudcat. But accepting membership leaves one open to direct PMs, and I suspect he has no desire for that. (copy & paste from an old thread): Subject: RE: BS: Make Gargoyle a full-blown member From: Max - PM Date: 10 Mar 00 - 12:54 AM OK, gargoyle, you got it. I tried to give your membership back months ago, but you apparently never got my message. Your tactics are crude, you are often inappropriate and rude, and I obviously cannot ever agree with you for the simple fear that anyone would think that your type of efforts could or should be effective, but you are undoubtedly a knowledgeable member of our community. My motive for your membership? People want to be able to talk to you… and as ambiguous as I may seem here, my sole function is to facilitate that… because that is what The Mudcat is all about. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey. Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:19 PM I post as a guest because my songs were on mudcat before me, I don't spend much time here but I have learned a lot. I can be contacted very easily on my website, and have many messages from mudcatters. I always use my name when posting, if this offends some of you, sorry. Many of my friends in Ireland and Germany have become interested in Mudcat as a result of me constantly talking about it. Great site, interesting people, I look forward to meeting some of you soon. P.S. Would I be welcome at a Mudcat gathering, as a humble guest. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Bill D Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:28 PM Pat...of course you'd be welcome..! ..using your name, even as only a guest, is fine. Those of us who object do so to totally anonymous 'guests' who are only out to stir up problems. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: JennyO Date: 26 Jan 03 - 08:40 AM x xxxxxxxxxx xxx Here's xxx xxxx a round xxxxx xxxxx TUIT xxxxxx xxxxx for you xxxxx xxxxx Amos xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx Well, not exactly ROUND, sort of ovoid, or diamond shaped - hell, I don't know. It was the best I could do at short notice! Actually, if you type "round tuit" into Google, there are some fun sites, some of them musical! Anyway, I hope it works for you. Jenny |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Strupag Date: 26 Jan 03 - 08:51 AM I have always found it a piece of cake to re-set my Cookie (Geddit!) I still cant work ouot how to do a blue clicky. do you put all that screed up on your text and it comes up as a link? Please PM this electronic engineer and tell me how it's done! |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: stevetheORC Date: 26 Jan 03 - 09:52 AM I like cookies dey is tasty :-)))) Orc's luvvvvv Cookkkkkiiiiiiiisssssssss |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: CarolC Date: 26 Jan 03 - 10:03 AM Strupag - < (plus) a href=" (plus the URL for your link, plus) " (plus) > (plus the words you want to appear in your blue clicky, plus) < (plus)/a (plus) > Copy and paste that into the text box. Then delete all of my parenthesis and everything inside the parenthesis. Add your information where I've indicated. Don't leave any spaces except between "a" and "href". I recommend using the preview function to check your links to make sure they work before posting. Good luck! |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: *daylia* Date: 26 Jan 03 - 10:58 AM I think I'll get Round Tuit Jenny! |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:13 AM Why not just use the link maker??? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: Strupag Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:18 AM Sorted! Thanks to all who responded. |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: CarolC Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:19 AM Why not just use the link maker??? Where's the fun in that? It's like driving a car with automatic transmission. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Guest ? From: nutty Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:28 AM CAROL ..... you failed to point out that there is a difference between posting a link to a Mudcat thread or song in the DT and posting a link to another web site. Like Spaw, I would recommend the link maker to those who are not sure. It may be like driving a car with automatic transmission but it won't let you crash. |
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