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BS: Saddam's supergun

GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England 24 Jan 03 - 03:14 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jan 03 - 03:32 PM
DougR 24 Jan 03 - 03:41 PM
X 24 Jan 03 - 08:37 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 03 - 08:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 03 - 09:29 PM
Jeep man 24 Jan 03 - 10:16 PM
Bill D 24 Jan 03 - 11:20 PM
Roger the Skiffler 25 Jan 03 - 07:11 AM
gnu 25 Jan 03 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England 25 Jan 03 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England 25 Jan 03 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England 25 Jan 03 - 09:14 AM
The Walrus 25 Jan 03 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England 25 Jan 03 - 11:37 AM
Ebbie 25 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,colwyn dane 25 Jan 03 - 01:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM
Hrothgar 26 Jan 03 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Richard H 26 Jan 03 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England 27 Jan 03 - 04:35 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 03 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England 27 Jan 03 - 06:58 AM
Steve Parkes 27 Jan 03 - 08:01 AM
HuwG 27 Jan 03 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Richard Hoad 27 Jan 03 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England 27 Jan 03 - 12:38 PM
HuwG 27 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM
HuwG 27 Jan 03 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,petr 27 Jan 03 - 03:04 PM

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Subject: Saddams supergun
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:14 PM

In these troubled times you might like to see a photo of a segment of Saddam Hussains infamous supergun which is now on display in Woolwich Arsenal south east London...heres the link

Saddams supergun picture


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Subject: RE: Saddams supergun
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:32 PM

OOOOOoooo! Pretty disturbing! The Germans had some artillery pieces a lot like that for shelling Paris in WWI. If it had ever been built, Saddam might have become the proud owner of the world's biggest phallic symbol, and this would have created a "phallus gap" between the USA and Iraq, which is simply unthinkable!

Good thing it never happened, eh? The dog is too small a caliber for that barrel, by the way. You need a really fat St.Bernard dog to load up that sucker, with a small tactical nuke strapped to his collar instead of a barrel of brandy.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Saddams supergun
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 03:41 PM

As long as it is in SE London, we have little to fear from it. Does the museum have any of the missles loaded with poison gas Saddam's son threatened to use against our troops should we invade them Jim? Of course that is an empty threat isn't it, because Iraq has already declared that they have no weapons of mass destruction. Right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Saddams supergun
From: X
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:37 PM

I want one!


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Subject: RE: Saddams supergun
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 08:43 PM

The full size gun was capable of putting objects in orbit.

The scientist who built it was assassinated by Moassad.


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Subject: RE: Saddams supergun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 09:29 PM

That dog looks pretty suspicious to me.

I think if I was Saddam Hussein and had worked out that I'm definitely going to be invaded, regardless of whether any weapons of mass detruction or evidence of their existence actually turn up, I'd probably announce that in fact I've got an atom bomb assembled in a basement in Washington and another one in London. "And if you think I'm lying, just to try and invade, and you'll find out soon enough."

But that wouldn't necessarily be factually true..


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Subject: RE: Saddams supergun
From: Jeep man
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 10:16 PM

I'd say that a man capable of building such a terrible weapon is a man to be reckoned with.
Who knows what may be next in the arsenal of this evil genius? Maybe a super giant bow and arrow, or 100 foot long spear?

Lets hear suggestions for ways to insure the safety of the world against this dark threat. This is no time to be shy. Humanity may be at the crossroads. Act Now. Jeep


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 03 - 11:20 PM

the more things change, the more they remain the same..

here is Die dicke Berta "Big Bertha", which the Germans thought would destroy Paris in WWI.

"Probably the most discussed of all of the big guns of the Great War is the infamous Paris Gun. Also known as Lange Max (Long Max), Big Bertha (not to be confused with the 42cm Krupp howitzer given the same nick name) and William's Gun; this gun was strategic, rather than tactical in nature, in that it was a terror weapon meant to demoralize the citizens of Paris. This forerunner to the Iraqi supergun could fire a shell 70 miles in about 170 seconds reaching a maximum altitude of 24 miles - quite a feat of German engineering for 1918. On the down side, the payload was only 15 pounds of explosive, accuracy was non-existent (you could hit Paris but not a specific target in Paris), and the whole gun would have to be rebored after 65 firings. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:11 AM

I thought he was just pleased to see me.

RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:00 AM

Originally, the gun, invented by a Canuck, was to be used by Tim Horton's Donuts for home delivery to the NWT, but the cream filled ones kept arriving empty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:01 AM

The ironic thing about this awesome if rather retro piece of balistic technology was that it was built in Britain with British and US collaboration....If memory serves me right the company was heavily fined for its part and wasnt the US's own Oliver North mixed up in it all somewhere along the line...????..does any one know how many of those segments (if there are more?) make up the gun ???
I came acros it Saturday week ago whilst cyling around Woolowich arsenal with my stepson and bichon frise doggy pal Snowie....I particularly enjoyed Little Hawks comment "The dog is too small a caliber for that barrel, by the way. You need a really fat St.Bernard dog to load up that sucker, with a small tactical nuke strapped to his collar instead of a barrel of brandy." ha ha...not to mention...Roger the Skifflers play on the phallic theme "I thought he was just pleased to see me." ha ha...Theres a fascinating tunnell leading from from my side of north London over to Woolwich south a few minutes away from Woolwich Arsenal one of the earlist arms factories in the world founded by Henry V111 who single handedly almost invented the arms trade....with his naval and military aspirations...Anyway the tunnel "The Woolwich foot tunnel" built in 1912 to enable the dockers to cross over the


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:10 AM

cont/d from my unfinished message...

River thames to get to work even on foggy days when the free ferry (which still sails) couldnt sail....is 12 foot wide and some 60 feet beneath the Thames its a fun walk going through it (takes about 10 minutes) with its excellent echoey acoustics....heres a link if you like to take a look http://groups.msn.com/acousticmusiciansandpoetssoundarchive/afungallery.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=476


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:14 AM

whoops forgot the blue clicky thingy..

The Woolwich foot tunnel photo


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: The Walrus
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:05 AM

Jim,

There are another couple of sections at the Royal Armouries site at Fort Nelson, Portsmouth.
I feel that it's a little ufair to tagging Henry VII as the man "...who single handedly almost invented the arms trade...", there were also the chaps who worked out how to smelt/melt large enough quantities of iron to make the guns.
By the bye, if you like old arms factories, there is also the Royal Gunpowder Factory which is now open to the public at Waltham Abbey.

Regards

Walrus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London..England
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:37 AM

Thanx Walrus,

I confess I was only waffling realy about Henry from snippets i'd picked up over the years on the popular history grapevine....its not realy my subject I just thought it might be of topical interest as we seem about to go another turkey shoot in Iraq..but he was apparently the British monarch credited with creating a formal naval force and his requirements led to the procurement of more easily manufactured weapons of mass destruction....ie iron cannon balls etc....


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM

This forerunner to the Iraqi supergun could fire a shell 70 miles in about 170 seconds reaching a maximum altitude of 24 miles

I'm no math whiz- I'm hardly even competent- but why 24 miles? Unless they shot practically straight up and it came practically straight down, at that speed (70 miles in little more than a minute and a half) no farther than it is from any point in Germany to Paris, 24 miles up might be somewhat hard to direct. Seems like an altitude of 1,000 feet, for instance, would make more sense than 135,000 feet. Our planes today climb to around 35,000 feet.

I'm not questioning the fact, just the logic. And of course, I grant that the maximum possible altitude was not what it was set for...


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,colwyn dane
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:50 PM

The Germans during WW2 had a project to have a 25-barrel HDP-V3(high pressure pump - vengance weapon 3) battery constructed between Calais and Boulogne on the channel coast in 1943; to enable direct firing on London roughtly 95 miles away;the weapon was expected to be fired at a rate of approximately 200 shells an hour.

617 squadron RAF raided the site in 1944 and one 'Tallboy' bomb destroyed the underground facilties.

Regards.
CD


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

"Unless they shot practically straight up and it came practically straight down..." What a charming thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: Hrothgar
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 05:21 AM

I've always had my doubts about the wall thickness of those tubes that are supposed to be barrels for Saddam's super gun.

They actually remind me of the marvellous "guns" that were used in western Queensland a century ago to cause rain to fall and break the drought. Don't bother asking if they worked hahahahahahaha.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 10:36 PM

Actually the prototype gun was built in my country Barbados. The Canadians convinced our government it was for high altitude weather research (hence the HARP) project. When fired, it used to shatter windows and crack walls for miles around.

The builder, Gerry Bull, was assassinated by the Israeli Mossad. I seem to recall that apartheid South Africa also wanted one.

The original gun is still standing though rusted. Pictures and story of the gun can be found at http://bajans.com/src.htm.

I seem to recall the original barrels came from the Americans but I would need to check that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 04:35 AM

Richard I couldnt get your bajans url to work,but thanx for the info which has gone some way to satisfying my curiosity....

Regards.

Jim Clark..


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 05:16 AM

I keep on reading this thread heading as "Saddam's supergran"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 06:58 AM

Who knows maybe he's got a supergran stashed away somewhere with his weapons of mass destruction ha ha..


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 08:01 AM

Supergran? So that's whu=y they call Saddam "The Scunner"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: HuwG
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 08:39 AM

GUEST, Jim Clark, the company that manufactured the sections of Supergun barrel was Sheffield Forgemasters (of Sheffield, naturally). They insisted throughout that the Iraqi customers had in turn insisted that they were for application in Iraq's oilfields, in spite of the fact that nobody could think of any practical application in the petrochemical industry for such over-engineered pipework.

Ebbie, the maximum height reached by the shells fired by the Paris Gun was indeed 24 miles. At that height, the atmosphere is thinner and the shells were hardly slowed by air resistance. As you say, on such a trajectory, accuracy wasn't exactly brilliant. (Note: the guns weren't fired from Germany; they were fired from a point within German occupied territory in France, just north of Soissons).

When you consider the operating procedure, the weapon looks like a complete waste of time. Not only did the whole gun require a rebore after 65 shots, but each shell had a slightly different diameter to compensate for barrel wear, and the propellant charge for each shot was slightly different and required very careful measurement. And even with all these procedures, the Germans still managed to blow up one gun by accident.

Still, the weapons did manage to send Paris into a flap. No doubt Saddam's gun was supposed to do the same. I suspect that had it ever been fired, perhaps a dozen or so shells might have landed somewhere in Israel (or possibly in Palestinian territory) before much of Western Iraq was carpet-bombed.

Note: I once worked on some computer software at Forgemasters, albeit nearly twenty years ago. If I am to be charged as a war criminal, I must plead ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Richard Hoad
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 09:05 AM

Jim Clark,
I don't know how to post a URL but if you type in http://bajans.com/src.htm , it should come up.

Other than that you can do it the long way: Go to www.barbadosphotogallery.com, look for Archives, then Sights and scenes index, and under General you'll find the Story of the Space Research Corporation.

This gun was no joke and is worth seeing. But for God's sake, don't tell Bush we developed a weapon of mass destruction on a 166 square mile island. Although, come to think of it, we ain't got oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 12:38 PM

HuwG Great stuff ..thanx for all the info.....isnt it amazing how knowledgeable folk music types are ha ha.

Regards.

Jim..


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: HuwG
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM

Thanks for your comments, Jim Clark. Sheffield is very much England's rust belt. Two decades ago, when I worked there, the streets of Attercliffe, Brightside and Tinsley (where I lived) were ankle-deep in a very abrasive clinker, that took the soles off trainers in record time; with the wind in the west one got a lungful of rust, with the wind in the east the smell was that of the lower Don sewage plant, and you could hear the din from Templeborough Rolling Mills more clearly.

Many of the old steelworks have gone now; instead there is the Don Valley athletics stadium, and the Meadowhall shopping centre, and lots of glass cubes of offices ... bleaaugh !

...

Computers plus foundries never really mixed. When I started there, most foundries did their computer work on clunky PDP-11's with VT-100 terminals next to the furnaces. Those VT-100's were practically indestructible. One shift supervisor complained that the display on his was on its last legs; he was perfectly happy once we cleaned a quarter of an inch thickness of grime off the screen. When they replaced the terminals with 8-bit PC's, the PC's lasted about a week before practically bursting into flames with the fans clogged and the disk drives choked with grit and ash; I sent some of the juiciest horror stories to Rinkwork's site.

The software I worked on was supposed to calculate the amount and grade of scrap to be fed into a furnace to obtain a given grade of steel. The software worked this out into a "charge-sheet", accurate to the nearest gramme, which was then handed to the driver of a JCB [US = backhoe], with another worker wielding a shovel for fine adjustment. And trying to charge a furnace with steel turnings - well, think of the world's largest pan-scrubber.

...

Tinsley had a reputation for turning out trim and shapely, but ill-behaved girls; after all, it was the home of the "Slag Reduction Company".

Sheffield also boasted the rather Spartan-sounding firm of "Shufflebottom & co. (Wire-drawers)".


I'll no doubt bore everyone rigid in future posts now that the floodgates of reminiscence have been opened. But, TTFN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: HuwG
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 02:13 PM

Let's make that Blue Clicky a bit more presentable. Sorry!


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Subject: RE: BS: Saddam's supergun
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 03:04 PM

I believe a CBC documentary said that Bull was assassinated by Iraqi intelligence, not Mossad and there was a connection with the assasination of Swedens Prime Minister Olaf Palme (as yet unsolved) but the speculation was that it was Iraqi intelligence.


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Mudcat time: 25 May 12:10 PM EDT

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