BS: Germany and France are not Europe

Subject: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:34 AM

Donald Rumsfeld, Bush's secretary of defensce effectively lost all the respect and credibility the US used to have in Eurpope and NATO.

In an effort to marginalize the announcement that Germany and France will not buy into the Bush plan for world war, he said that Germany and France are not Europe, they are the old Europe and that the US has the support of all the Estern block countries of the NEW EUROPE.

Officials from Germany have called Donald Rumsfeld irrational and I suppose french waiters can't wait to spit in his food.

Our secretary of defense (twice now) knows all about bio warfare. He was instrumental in pushing bio weapons on Saddam during the Reagan administration. He is still trying to clean up that mess. Lets look at his history.

In 1973, he left Washington, DC, to serve as U.S. Ambassador to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in Brussels, Belgium (1973-1974).

In August 1974, he was called back to Washington, DC, to serve in the Ford Administration successively as:

Chairman of the transition to the Presidency of Gerald R. Ford (1974);
Chief of Staff of the White House and a member of the President's Cabinet (1974-1975); and, as
The 13th U.S. Secretary of Defense, the youngest in the country's history (1975-1977).
From 1977 to 1985 he served as Chief Executive Officer, President, and then Chairman of G.D. Searle & Co., a worldwide pharmaceutical company. The successful turnaround there earned him awards as the Outstanding Chief Executive Officer in the Pharmaceutical Industry from the Wall Street Transcript (1980) and Financial World (1981). From 1985 to 1990 he was in private business.

Mr. Rumsfeld served as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of General Instrument Corporation from 1990 to 1993. A leader in broadband transmission, distribution, and access control technologies for cable, satellite and terrestrial broadcasting applications. Mr. Rumsfeld returned to private business in late 1993. Until being sworn in as the 21st Secretary of Defense, Mr. Rumsfeld served as Chairman of Gilead Sciences, Inc.

During his business career, Mr. Rumsfeld continued public service in a variety of posts, including:

Member of the President's General Advisory Committee on Arms Control - Reagan Administration (1982 - 1986);
President Reagan's Special Envoy on the Law of the Sea Treaty (1982 - 1983);
Senior Advisor to President Reagan's Panel on Strategic Systems (1983 - 1984);
Member of the U.S. Joint Advisory Commission on U.S./Japan Relations - Reagan Administration (1983 - 1984);
President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East (1983 - 1984);

In his current role as Goering he has fortunetly shot himself in the foot and has placed it deeply within his mouth.

Perhaps he is an asset to the peace movement because of his strident imperalistic fascism.

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Alice
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:18 AM

It is incredibly frustrating to have people controlling our government who would make such a ridiculous statement. May we survive the Bush administration with its lack of diplomacy and abundance of arrogance.

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:41 PM

I'm sure that Rumsfeld is just real bitter that France and Germany have no zeal for his master plan. I doubt if he really believes that the Czech Republic and Bulgaria can make up the loss. But you can't call him a quitter. Too bad we can't parachute him into Baghdad...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 01:38 PM

I'd question whether ordinary people in countries like the Czech Republic or Poland, for example are really that gung-ho about making war on Iraq, any more than we are in the United Kingdom.

Don't go mistaking what governments will do to curry favour with a rich patron, and the wishes of what ordinary people, who know what war and bombing means.

Yes, they know about tyranny in Eastern and Central Europe - but I don't think there were ever many people in those countries duringntye Cold War who wanted to get liberated by a massive air and land attack that would flatten their countries.

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:05 PM

I wonder if someone might politely (or even impolitely) suggest to Mr.Rumsfeld that America is not the world. There are some of us out here - and indeed in the USA itself - who believe that the world's best interests are not synonymous with the needs of American arms manufacturing corporations.

Subject: RE: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 03:15 PM

I believe that most workers in the arms divisions of American companies are unionized. War always means full employment and overtime. What is the attitude of the unions and workers towards war? It does no good to blame just corporations.

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:07 PM

Rumsfeld is a strange critter....he is intelligent and experienced and he can be charming, witty, and quite aware...yet he will occasionally drop the most amazing, inept silliness into a rational debate...

he worries me...

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:13 PM

When you think of how the Europeans responded spontaneously with support after September 11th, it is extraordinary how ineptly these guys have handled what was essentially four aces.



yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:27 PM

Indeed it does not do any good just to blame corporations, Guest Q. Now I wonder if you will be able to convince me that Bush and Rumsfeld are going to war on behalf of unionised labour?

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:41 PM

Yes, Bush&Co. have pissed away whatever international goodwill was extended after 9-11. The scary thing is that they do not seem to care -- at all. They feel they have the power, and they will use it regardless of consequences. This is deeply immoral. I think it's called totalitarianism.

We can only hope that by the time they're ready to start shooting, international and domestic opinion will have turned negative drastically enough to give them pause. I applaud Germany and France for showing more spine than that weasel, Blair.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 05:57 PM

it is so very sad to watch my own country being pushed/dragged into a conflict like this. It is a case of doing a good thing (getting rid of a maniac despot) for all the wrong reasons, with the wrong justifications, and using the wrong paths...Bush 'could' have had most of the world's support for fighting terrorism, and eventually have accomplished things in Iraq, but now, even winning will give us a bad reputation.

Isn't is amazing what differences to history a few thousand votes can make?

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 06:11 PM

Yes, I am afraid you are right. If America is going to make a principled stand against evil dictators, it looks like your country has a lot of work ahead (including the removal of several other despots which it has either installed itself or supported over the years).

Subject: RE: BS:Germany and France are not Europe
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 06:21 PM

The US Labor movement was well represented during the DC war protest last week. As was everyone else in the country who wouldn't benifit in some big way if we were to impose our will upon other nations. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:13 PM



Surely, Bill D, you exaggerate the number of votes that actually decided it by a factor of several thousand.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,uncle charlie
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:20 PM

i can understand how upset the french and german governments are at mr. rumsfeld's comments the other day, and as an American i apologize
if these remarks offend their noble countrymen. after all, if we rid the world or saddam and free his people there is a chance that the noble and enlightened french might not be able to recoupe the billions saddam owes them. i also applaud our german friends for their stance. the last thing we need is germany involved in any form of military action with their illustrious past. isn't it funny how france is always at odds with the United States? must have something to do with the fact that they are relatively irrelevant on the world stage both in culture and industry. it is always a good thing to have debates on such matters as the use of force,for it is a grave situation, but atleast try to be honest. europeans are concerned about their investments in iraq, Americans are interested in keeping that asshole from giving his weapons to terriorist to use against us.
and if it was just about oil and we Americans were as evil as you left wing europeans say, we have the power to just take over the oil producing countries if we so desired.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM

It's Biblical. The jawbone of an ass. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 07:39 PM

"Isn't it funny how France is always at odds with the United States?"

There's gratitude for you...

There quite likely wouldn't have been a United States without help from the French. And who gave America the Statue of Liberty?

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: harvey andrews
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:11 PM

Uncle Charlie, when it comes to culture... Literature,art, music, cinema, Brel, Brassens, Piaf...taste.. you've got a fight on your hands!

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:16 PM

Alanabit, I hold no brief for Bush and his crew. I think the move against Iraq is stupid, without proof, and without international support.
Big business is frequently attacked, in most cases unfairly. Who holds the stock? Investors from the individual to the big pension funds and insurance companies.
Wars usually create short term profit increases for business, but retooling and re-sizing before and after create debts and disruption for it as well as the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:22 PM

Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

Rule 34: War is good for business

Rule 35: Peace is good for business

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:58 PM

I will personally go to war with anyone who insults French culture... My life has benefited immensely from French movies, literature, music, etc, and I hear their wine isn't too bad... The American revolution would have never happened... Our newest version of Napoleon probably makes French blood boil... Actually, "The Bonny Bunch of Roses O" is a much more apt comparison... We must look tragically comic... What would Benjamin Franklin do right about now? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:33 PM

ah, McGrath...I know that 5-4 is YOUR point...all I meant was that a 1000 vote swing in Florida would have given Gore that state and made the silliness of letting the court decide unnecessary. (and I suspect that if all residents of Florida had been given the same quality of vote counting and poll access, Gore would have won by a couple thousand anyway...)...still far too close, but....

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,unclecharlie
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:41 PM

It is just so much fun to stir things up! We in the U.S. will always be indebted to France for the critical help she gave us during our war of Independence, and there will never be another gift from one country to another as Lady Liberty. In my opinion the greatest painters in history were the Imppressionist. The French Resistence fighters in WW11 were some of the most courageous in the war. My problem with France stems from the latter part of the 20th century to now. The French broke away from NATO during the cold war to pursue there own intrest knowing that the U.S. would still be there if the Soviets invaded Western Europe. Remember French Indo-China? France begged the U.S. to support their colonial rule there which came back to haunt us in the Vietnam war. When I was in Israel I heard a French lady call me a fucking American. I replied that it was fucking Americans that saved their ass in two wars and if not for us she would be speaking German or Russian. We went on to become great friends. The point is that we must not make the same mistakes of the past by appeasing a ruthless dictator like saddam. If we don't disarm him now it will lead to a more hedious war when he does have nukes because Israel will have to stage a pre-emptive nuclear attack for it's survival and that could lead to a major world war. There are evil people in the world with whom you cannot negotiate with. Appeasement never works with them i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao and their ilk. The U.S. cannot allow this man to develope his weapons of mass destruction to use against his neighbors or be given to terrorist to use against us. In the end the vast majority of Americans don't give a shit about what the world says, we are going to put an end to saddam and his henchmen and then deal with North Korea and then Iran .

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:53 PM

because Israel will have to stage a pre-emptive nuclear attack

I think that's got to be one of the most stunningly convoluted, bizarre, and insane statements I have ever read.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: toadfrog
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 01:00 AM

What is most disturbing about Bush is his vision of an all-powerful America which must be able to give orders to all those foreigners and make them do what we say. In the last analyisis, not even North Korea is going to shoot off atomic bombs unless they are attacked. When Bush calls them part of the "axis of evil," people considerably more reasonable than the North Koreans would read that as a statement that he intends to attack them. Certainly when he mentions them in the same breath as Iraq, he gives that impression.

If history has any "lessons" at all, it is that a nation that aspires to be all-powerful will be brought low. And certainly, that the people living in such a nation can expect to be made extremely miserable. And that power tends to corrupt, so that in essence, Bush's vision is in fact evil.

By the way, lets not forget the name of the man that brought all this on us. His name is Ralph Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 02:52 AM

In the end the vast majority of Americans don't give a shit about what the world says, we are going to put an end to saddam and his henchmen and then deal with North Korea and then Iran .

Gads. What neighborhood do you live in? Not in mine, I assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 02:26 PM

Point 1:-- I hear in this morning's news that Blair is now saying that the inspectors should be given more time. Is it possible that Blair is flirting with the idea that Great Britain may join the old, outdated, and irrelevant portions of Europe?

Point 2:-- unclecharlie, I won't comment on most of what you said other than to echo what Ebbie said, and to also point out that refraining from going to war is not appeasement. As far as I'm concerned, Saddam can have all the weapons of mass destruction he wants (just as we do), as long as he fully understands that if he uses any of them against any country, the rest of the world will mash him like a bug. And I think he's not totally unaware of that. Nor is North Korea.

If the United States attacks any country pre-emptively, then it becomes the rogue nation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 03:02 PM

Michael: how can you piss away something you didn't have anyway? Nothing Rumsfield could say would make the Europeans love the U. S. or the Bush administration! They hate us until they need us. Then they tolerate us. The exception, I believe, is Great Britain.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 03:08 PM

Blair is now saying that the inspectors should be given more time

Don't build too much on that. He's had to say that all along, because it's difficult manoeuvring a country that is opposed to going to war, and a party that is opposed to war, into actually going to war.

"More time" means weeks rather than months. Remember this war has to fit in with the American electoral cycle, which means it needs to be sorted before this time next year, which means within the next couple of months, they say, because they don't fancy fighting a war in the hot weather in Iraq.

The significant Blair news today was in the Observer's lead story today, beginning:

Tony Blair has raised the temperature in the confrontation with Iraq by insisting there is no need for United Nations weapons inspectors to find a 'smoking gun' for Saddam Hussein to be in breach of UN resolutions and face military action.

In other words, all the arms inspections have really been about is treading water until the full-scale attack on Iraq can begin in a few weeks time.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 04:13 PM

I think the role of the inspectors is greatly misunderstood. As I understand it from listening to Colin Powell today, the UN did not expect that the inspectors would have to engage in finding the needle in the haystack. Iraq, according to the UN Resolution was supposed to fully cooperate with the inspectors and show them where the weapons are. It is the job of the inspectors to verify the Iraqi's claims. Also, Iraq was to cooperate by allowing their scientists to talk freely with the inspectors without Iraqi guards present. That has not been happend because the scientists fear that if they talk freely, they and their family will be killed. Probably true too. Iraq has not fully cooperated and I think that is what Blix will say in his report tomorrow.

As to Germany and France, I think all Rumsfield was saying was "we don't need you. We can do it with other allies thank you very much, without the help of Germany and France." Of course I would wager a bet that if the decision is to invade, France will climb aboard. I don't know about Germany. France evidently has big business interests in Iraq, and they wouldn't want to risk not preserving them after Saddam is removed from power. As part of the Allied forces, they would be in a much better position to maintain their business interests.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 04:30 PM

Hang on, DougR. Remember, you are on record as saying: #1, Bush will NOT go to war; #2, if he does go to war without letting us know what actual evidence he has, you too will complain about the president. Keep in mind, however, if you do such an unprecedented thing, you can expect a midnight knock on your door...

:)
Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 07:41 PM

Well, Ebbie, I think it only fair to say I have changed my mind. For awhile I thought Bush was pulling the big bluff, and I hoped Saddam would respond by taking the bait and vacating his throne. Evidently such is not to be the case, though, so I think we will go to war. As to the knock on the door, the "Knockers" are going to be so busy knocking on Mudcatter doors, I'm not at all concerned that they will ever get around to mine! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 08:39 PM

You mean Doug you really believed that stuff you were saying about it being a bluff? I rather thought it was a bit tongue in cheek. The same way when I was writing to my MP I was saying things like "I am confident in the light of what Tony Blair said on such and such a day that he has completely ruled out the possibiity of this country going to war without etc etc."

But in fact I was reasonably sure friend Tony was lying through his teeth while treading water. A difficult thing for most people, but you don't get to be Prime Minister if you can't do that with ease and conviction.

"As part of the Allied forces, they would be in a much better position to maintain their business interests."

Maybe they will stick a modified version of that on the war memorials: "As part of the Allied forces, we were in a much better position to maintain your business interests."

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 09:21 PM

Dear Doug, your last turnaround has wiped clean the respect you had previously earned from me, and it was no small amount... The calm acceptance of the various postings was indeed heartening, as were your steadfast and unshaken convictions... or so it seemed. If you are really wishing for a totalitarian take over, however, and the physical enforcement of the US government's apparent desires for the abolishment of free speech, then it is indeed you that are 'over the line', my friend...

It would appear that you've been sharing your bed with the state department again, 'cause of your timing re: comming out of the closet... pity, that, 'cause your input seemed so 'useful'...

I hope you have a change of heart, DougR, and I'm sure we value those secrets you've been keeping much more than... well, you know! ;^) We'll be waiting with open arms, and hugs, and music, and acceptance! ttr *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Strupag
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 10:04 PM

It seems to be overlooked that Britain is against a forthcoming war in Iraq. No I'm not talking about Blair, his henchmen and the Tory mob in Westminster.
I'm talking about the majority of Britains who express themselves often in opinion polls. It might be a reletively flawed indicator of representation but it is the only one we have these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:16 PM

Is there anything that the people in Britain can do to influence Tony Blair's decisions on this matter, or do they have as little influence on the decisions that are made as we do here in the US?

Our opinion polls don't seem to be giving an accurate indication of the true feelings of the people in this country. Personally, I think they're telling you guys over there that the majority of people in the US want the war, and they are giving those of us in the US the impression that the majority of people in Britain want the war. One of their psy-ops, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:38 PM

...the "Knockers" are going to be so busy knocking on Mudcatter doors, I'm not at all concerned that they will ever get around to mine! :>)

Ah, DougR, it appears you have got into a 'them' versus 'us' mode. Do you really mean to imply that you don't consider yourself a Mudcatter?

I can hear it now: "Oh, no, Your Honor, I never was one of 'them', I always let them know what I thought and tried consistently to change their views. I stayed only to help them, hoping they would see the light."

Say it ain't so, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 09:03 AM

They hate us until they need us. Then they tolerate us. The exception, I believe, is Great Britain. No Doug, we hate governments (of any nation) that drag is into a war that we don't believe necessary. Don't join the trolling guests trying to turn this into an ungrateful Europe versus a disappointed-at-their-ingratitude USA scenario. You're better off practicing your response to 'Are you now or have you ever been a Mudcatter'.

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 09:04 AM

Too late, Rumsfeld, this time. One of your silly remarks has helped the (very) moderately left government in Germany to stay in power last year. Thanks for that. Now that the conservatives threaten to win an overall blocking majority in the second house (Bundesrat) next Sunday ou go for it again. But one week is too close to change anything in the balance of votes. Next time, please, start your support of the German left a bit earlier.

Some Germans will hate whatever the USA do, some will love whatever the USA do, but a very large majority takes a position which is influenced by whatever the USA are actually doing. Right now, even very conservative politicians find it kind of hard to support the USA wholeheartedly.

A local, very conservative newspaper today had a cartoon titled 'Bush's idea of a peaceful world' and it had the president looking at a globe with the familiar shape of the USA at a familiar position but all the rest of the globe showed a blue ocean.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM

Nothing Rumsfield could say would make the Europeans love the U. S. or the Bush administration! They hate us until they need us. Then they tolerate us.
NOT true, Doug. They liberated us, they fed us, they supported us when edifying a new economy, and they stood by our side ready to defend us in case of attack.
But is it friendship to applaud a friend's faults? Real friendship is to tell your friend where you think he is wrong, and to prevent him from obnoxious doings.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:02 AM

This entire trivalization of reactions by other countries is sickening. Hooray for France and Germany! They have stood up. Boo for the others who are afraid to stand up. There is no real support for this war except by a small minority of very powerful people who have grasped the opportunity crrated by the events of 9/11 to forge ahead with "empire building".

This has nothing to do with Saddam. This has nothing to with a bunch of 30 year old technology that the US sold Iraq. This is about imperialism, oil, world dominance, unilaterialism and globalization.

So let' not get bogged down with the side shows that Bush and Co. are orchestrating. It is up to the American people to say, "No!". Yes it is encouraging to know that the majority of the world's population is against the US taking on this "Empire" mentality but most of us understand this.

So, bottom line, what will each of you do today for your "No" vote to be counted?

I'm going to write yet another snail mail, this one to Laura Bush.

Bobert

P.S. Don't worry about Dougie. He occasionally posts things for the sake of get folks to react.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Stefan Wirz
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 11:50 AM

anyone remembers Randy Newman's 'Political Science'? ('Boom goes London and boom Paree')

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: TIA
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 12:02 PM

Why don't France and Germany declare that the USA isn't part of North America? Wouldn't that make rummy grimace and squint over his bifocals!

Better yet, why don't Canada and Mexico actually vote us off the island.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:56 AM

Ebbie: sure I'm a mudcatter ...but I'm on the right side! :>)

TTR: sorry you are disillusioned, but you'll recover. I just wrote what I believe.

Wolfgang: I don't know what to say. I'm disappointed Germany is taking the position that it has, but that is their right.

Bobert: Take your pills! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 03:53 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 05:41 AM

Germany and France are not Europe - they would like to think that they are, but they are not.

CarolC:

"because Israel will have to stage a pre-emptive nuclear attack

I think that's got to be one of the most stunningly convoluted, bizarre, and insane statements I have ever read."

Remove the word "nuclear" between pre-emptive and attack and you have exactly what happened back in the early 80's when the Israeli Air Force flattened Iraq's first attempt at acquiring a reactor capable of producing weapons grade fissile material - the reactor was supplied by the French (Europes foremost nuclear power), other assistance required by Iraq to promote this programme was supplied by Russia.

Just as a sort of aside - the chemical munitions found in Iraq were 122mm artillery rockets - not part of any American/NATO inventory - Rusian/ex-Warsaw Pact. They used to run a scheme that put their ammunition sizes just above those used by NATO so that in the event of a war in Europe, advancing Soviet forces could use our ammunition at a pinch - we couldn't use theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 07:12 AM

They used to run a scheme that put their ammunition sizes just above those used by NATO so that in the event of a war in Europe, advancing Soviet forces could use our ammunition at a pinch - we couldn't use theirs.

I get the bizarre notion of an arms race in which each side would gomin for increasing the calibre of their ammunition for that reason. Getting chubbier and chubbier,

The most trenchant critics of the failings and failures of Americans are themseves Americans. And they are the ones I admire as true patriots and allies.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 07:57 AM

Actually Kevin it went the other way. Standard infantry weapon for NATO used 7.62mm - the Russians used 7.63mm. The Americans then went to 5.56mm followed by the British when the SA80R rifle replaced the SLR. Advantages in weight and amount of ammunition that could be carried by the individual infantryman.

On chemical and biological weapons, the UK unilaterally renounced the use of such weapons about forty years ago. The Russians and the Warsaw Pact forces maintained their capability, prompting the UK to retain establishments such as Portandown for research into protective measures for their troops. The Americans ceased to produce chemical or biological weapons but retained existing stocks until degraded. What was found in Iraq was supplied by the Russians or manufactured under licence, yet we are consistantly told of America supplying chemical and biological weapons to Saddam Hussein during the Iran - Iraq War. I do remember that chemicals used in the production of chemical and biological weapons, found by UNSCOM Inspection Teams after 1991 originated in Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: stevetheORC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:03 AM

You Nasty, Nasty, Folksy's why do you all keep on picking on pooorr ole Georgie you'll give him a complex you know, then he'll go running to daddy who will spank you all:~)) Chairman Blair only hears those little voices in his head!!!

ORC for Prez!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:05 AM

Every opinion poll I have seen in the British media has been over 80%against going to war, Blair is being panned daily for his servile attitude to the US warmongers. Ard Mhacha

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:19 AM

I do not support Saddam Hussein. He is a murderer and a dangerous dictator who supports terrorism against his people and others. He is the one who invaded Kuwait and has done everything possible to circumvent sanctions levied against him by the international community. Since the international community and NATO will not stand up to him when he breaks the rules, I guess he should be left alone to do what he likes. Maybe if we're nice to him he'll change!

Do Germany and France support Saddam?

After 9-11 the world was supposed to be united against terrorists and the countries that support terrorism. It's easy to forget about 9-11, it was over a year ago. It's easy to forget about Hitler?

This is not about oil. This is about standing up to Saddam.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:34 AM

Pardon me if I shout for a second: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT IRAQ HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH SEPTEMBER 11.

"Standing up to Saddam Hussein" is about a big country stomping a small country.

No, Iraq is not a very pleasant regime. Nor for that matter was Poland when Hitler invaded it. That didn't stop the invasion being a criminal act of aggression, for which the rulers of Germany were rightly put on trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 09:32 AM

Well said Ritchie - very well put.

Kevin, while it is true that Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th, if you read Ritchie's post he does not contend that they did.

"Standing up to Saddam Hussein" is about confronting a country, with an extremely well documented history of aggression, who in the past have actively engaged in the development of programmes specifically designed to place weapons of mass destruction at the disposal of the regime in power, a regime that makes no secret of its support of terrorist organisations.

"Standing up to Saddam Hussein" has got nothing to do with a big country stomping a little country. Pardon me if I shout for a second: NOBODY HAS STOMPED ON ANYBODY YET.

Your reference and comparison to the event that resulted in the declaration of the state of war existing between France, Britain and Germany is somewhat incomplete:

"No, Iraq is not a very pleasant regime. Nor for that matter was Poland when Hitler invaded it. That didn't stop the invasion being a criminal act of aggression, for which the rulers of Germany were rightly put on trial."

What about the Russians Kevin?? As this (Invasion of not so pleasant Poland) was a criminal act of aggression, for which the rulers of Germany were rightly put on trial, was the Soviet invasion of the eastern half of Poland not also a criminal act of aggression??

Or was that a question of what shade of Socialist you wanted to call yourself - National Socialist or Communist Socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 09:42 AM

If it was just about Saddam, in this day and age don't you think it would be easy to make him disappear. Unfortunately if there is war it won't be the Saddam's of this world that will suffer. It will be thousands of Iraqi children and what have they ever done to anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 09:44 AM

McGrath

Then I assume you also believe that Saddam was wrong for attacking Kuwait, and that he should be held accountable. And since he has not lived up to his end of the sanctions he should be again be held accountable. How much leeway does he get?

The point of 9-11 is that if you leave the bad guys alone they will certainly kill innocent people. Saddam attacked Kuwait. The bad guys being terrorists and leaders like Saddam, and Bin Laden. Or we can just wait until they use nuclear or chemical weapons and after thousands die...respond.

Etiher way it sucks. If you're proactive, you're a war monger from a big country attacking a little country.

The problem is the bad guys.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM

Guest Den,

The question is: How many Iraqi children do we save by getting rid of Saddam now? Or do we wait until there's a major confrontation when many more Iraqi children could die. Or do we just hope there won't be a problem with Saddam?

How do we know?

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 10:12 AM

From Ritchie above a couple of questions:

"Then I assume you also believe that Saddam was wrong for attacking Kuwait, and that he should be held accountable. And since he has not lived up to his end of the sanctions he should be again be held accountable."

I look forward to Kevin's answer with interest in view of his stance on criminal acts of aggression.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 11:08 AM

Yes, Teribus, I'm familiar with Israel's history of "pre-emptive" attacks on other countries. My reaction to that statement wasn't because I think they wouldn't do something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 11:22 AM

People seem to conveniently forget that Saddam asked the US ambassador to Iraq prior to invading Kuwait, whether or not the US would disapprove of such an action. The US ambassador to Iraq said the US wouldn't take any official notice if Saddam were to invade Kuwait. I don't understand why the US was so surprised when he did exactly what he told us he was going to do, and to which we told him we would turn a blind eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 11:40 AM

From a translation of Iraq's transcript of the meeting, released that September, press and pundits concluded that Ms. Glaspie had (in effect)
given Saddam a green light to invade.

"We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts," the transcript reports Glaspie saying, "such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary [of
State James] Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction ... that Kuwait is not associated with America."

The Persian Gulf War began Jan. 17, 1991. But before the official end of the war (April 11), Glaspie was called to testify informally before the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

She said she was the victim of "deliberate deception on a major scale," and denounced the Iraqi transcript as "a fabrication" that distorted her
position, though it contained "a great deal" that was accurate.

The veteran diplomat awaited her next assignment, later taking a low-profile job at the United Nations.

In November 1992, Iraq's former deputy prime minister, Tarik Aziz, gave Glaspie some vindication. He said she had not given Iraq a green
light. "She just listened and made general comments," he told USA Today. "We knew the United States would have a strong reaction."

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:02 PM

If Saddam had really been such a big enemy of the US and so uncontrollable, why on earth would he have ever asked for permission prior to invading Kuwait?

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM

Saddam was only trying to determine what the US reaction would be. He figured that without international outrage he would be able to take over Kuwait. It was the same tactic Hitler used.

I think that after 9-11 the US (and other countries) decided that instead of letting Bin Laden and Hussein perpetrate genocide on other peoples, the world would be safer if they were not capable of having nuclear and chemical/biological weapons in their hands.

Carol- if terrorists killed your family or your friends wouldn't you wonder why nothing was being done to protect you.

When terrorists start exploding nuclear devices and chemical weapons in major cities, which unfortuately will probably happen, there will be outrage but it will be too late.

Maybe we should just let it happen...it's really none of our business, is it!

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM

Richie, it is my opinion that the foriegn terrorists who attack the US do it precisely because of the state sponsored terrorism that the government of the US conducts and finances all over the world. It is my opinion that it is the US government that is putting the lives of my family members in danger.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

Fire is as fire does, bleach no bones about it
The karma here is plain and fear is left alone to tout it
Intelligence not circumstance will bring this world to peace
For war machines in symphonies can not of love bequeath

Tactics born of wars forgotten, or worse yet recalled well
A martyr made of ol Bin Laddin, makes strong the warring spell
Fight or flight and might makes right are meals that make us ill
C'mon, lift up your loving mind... with peaceful use of will.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Richie
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM

Carol,

Your opinion is one that is taken by many people: that the US involvement in other countries leads to retribution.

If every country left every other country alone then the world would not be a safer place. There are still people that muder other people for whatever reason whether on the street in Dallas or one country attacking another. You cannot reason with murderers like Bin Laden. Their goal is to kill people in the US. It's too late to reason with terrorists.

The only thing you can do is try to protect yourself and other countries. As a world leader that is what the US is trying to do.

If you let the murders have atomic and chemical weapons they are going to use them.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:43 PM

All I can say, Richie, is this: one man's "pre-emptive attack" is another man's "war of agression". The Hitler comparisons cut both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

Carol, you got it in one.

The US view in the Wilson and Roosevelt days was supposed to be that clapped-out European imperialism was the cause of all the world's ills, and only the rule of international law, promloted by the youthfully innocent USA would change things for better. Unfortunately their successors have taken over the imperial role and no longer see anything wrong with it.

Read Philip Agee's "Inside the CIA". It's nothing too wild and cloak-and-dagger. On the contrary, it's a rather tedious read. But it shows "the Company's" modus operandi, repeated around the world, of corrupting and subverting governments, often legitimately elected, and of using lies and forgeries to influence the outcomes of elections (not to mention arming and paying for coups d'état, as happened in countries which Agee didn't personally experience), all in the name of fighting against "Communism" but in fact just advancing US interests. You put it down with the same sense of disgust as a work of pornography, but it's still worth reading to understand the last half-century.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:02 PM

"Or was that a question of what shade of Socialist you wanted to call yourself - National Socialist or Communist Socialist. "

Now that, I would suggest is flaming - and in no way justified by anything I had said. I do not believe I have ever made a personal attack on Teribus (or anyone else for that matter) comparable to that. If I ever I would be ashamed to have done so, more especially because I would see it as damaging to the Mudcat.

The reason the Russians weren't put on trial for the numerous war crimes they committed was the same reason they that Allies weren't (for example fro the bombing of Dresden). They won the war.

I hope that some day things won't work that way and that the people on the winning side will be compelled to stick within the agreed intenational laws about what constitutes criminal conduct in war. (And I am not suggesting that it is possiblke to wage war without doing extremely nasty things - I am just saying that there are agreed limits on what can be done, and those agreements should be adhered to.)

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

Relax, McGrath... Richie is definitely a flamer. He gets his viewpoint from CNN and slants it with CIA briefs from there... a certified 'no brainer' ...if you ask me. ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 02:52 PM

What is the problem in reading a post by someone with whom you do not agree without recurring to personal insult? Is it really more than can be asked for in political threads?

I find both the 'certified no brainer' and the 'National Socialist or Communist Socialist' part of those posts very different from what I want to read here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: harvey andrews
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 03:06 PM

Can't we just agree that's it the hypocracy that gets us all angry. There are many countries needing a regime change but we don't threaten them with one because we have no interest (oil) in their country.It appears that most of the terrorists named for the suicide attack or plans for terrorist attack are from Algeria or Saudi Arabia. If any country needed a regime change to free its people and end terrorism it appears to be Saudi, but no one talks of this because they are our economic friends.
Morality has to be left out of this discussion because morality is not involved. All threatened actions are about protecting financial self interest it seems to me.
I had a vox pop with an elderly lady in our village post office today. She remembers the beginning of the second world war and listening to Churchill's broadcasts.
"You just believed him to be right" she said. "First the Rhineland then Poland invaded, and we knew what Fascism meant for the rest of Europe. So you knew you had to fight it. It was the right thing to do.
I don't feel it's like that now."
And behind this is religious fundamentalism, the most dangerous weapon of mass destruction in the history of mankind.
Bush believes only belief in Christ allows entry to Heaven. The other side believe martyrdom for Allah leads to a sexual paradise. The saddest thing about all this I think is that the intellectual progress made by science and our finest thinkers is being submerged in ignorance, and the rider of the beast of ignorance is war, destruction and death.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:15 PM

If any country needed a regime change to free its people and end terrorism it appears to be Saudi, but no one talks of this...

Give us time, harvey. We'll get around to it after we take care of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:20 PM

Point Taken Wolfgang, sorry to offend you. Yes, I was offensive, but as far as the reading of a post I disagree with and taking it with a grain of salt, I can only say that I am deeply and personally offended by ignorant and misinformed individuals... spouting propaganda like it's new found wisdom... and bringing with it all, a sense of smirking indifference to peace, morals and ethical religious teachings...

Sometimes ya gotta just throw the assholes out... the question is... which is which? ...guess I'd better tone it down huh? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 02:07 AM

Thomas: not a bad idea. People who do not agree with you are not necessarily ass-holes, ignorant, less than human, etc. They are just people with opinions. Many of them base their opinions on facts. Others base theirs on hope.

I don't believe Richie is a flamer. No more than those who present the opposing view. Actually, I think he and Teribus are holding up the opposing view very well against almost overwhelming odds.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 02:16 AM

I do not understand why so many of you are so upset at what Rumsfield said! He didn't insult Germany and France! He said that Europe consists of more than just those two countries! Well it does, doesn't it? All he was saying, I think, was okay Germany and France, if you don't want to join us in ridding the Iraqi people of a despot leader, we will do it with other European allies. We don't need you! You go your way, we will go ours. No hard feelings.

What's wrong with that? (Oh yes, I forgot, it's probably not politically correct!)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:32 AM

I do wish people would stop throwing around that term "politically correct" as if it meant something and somehow solved an argument. In this particular context, Doug, it seems a totally irrelevant adjective.

Rumsfeld's remarks were politically insensitive but that's a different thing entirely from whatever "politically incorrect" might be supposed to mean.

At least when Clinton came over last autumn speaking to the Labour Party conference he had the grace to admit that the USA (and the UK) had done much to help Saddam in the past, and in fact he saw this as a reason why it had a responsibility to undo some of the resulting harm:

The West has a lot to answer for in Iraq. Before the Gulf War when Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds and the Iranians there was hardly a peep in the West because he was in Iran. Evidence has now come to light that in the early 1980s the United States may have even supplied him with the materials necessary to start the bio-weapons programme. And in the Gulf War the Shi'ites in the South East of Iraq were urged to rise up and then were cruelly abandoned to their fate as he came in and killed large numbers of them, drained the Marshes and largely destroyed their culture and way of life. We cannot walk away from them or the proved evidence that they are capable of self-government and entitled to a decent life. We do not necessarily have to go to war to give it to them, but we cannot forget that we are not blameless in the misery under which they suffer and we must continue to support them.

Tha is not a tone we've been hearing from Rumsfeld, who was heavily involved personally in that process. Or from his boss.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM

With regard to the "National Socialist or Communist Socialist" thing. The historical parallel alluded to was incomplete - that is a fact. In 1939 Poland was invaded by the Germans from the west and by the Russians from the east, acosy agreement that formed part of their Non-Aggression Pact.

If anyone does want to draw on such parallels from history they should do so in a complete, accurate and factual manner. Failure to do so allows inferences to be drawn from the authors omissions.

I note that Ritchies original questions have not been taken up, answered or addressed in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:56 AM

APC on Agees book "Inside the CIA" - They were but one half of the "Cold War" coin. The Soviet KGB had a mirror image Department busily engaged in similar activities at the behest of their masters - Only they were nowhere near as accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: GUEST,Davtnova
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:20 AM

Just a point. Uncle charlie reckons French resistance fighters were the most corageous of WWII. It is worth reflecting that under America's new rules, instituted after the invasion of Afganistan, these people would have been classified as unlawful combatants who could be blindfolded, taken anywhere in the world against their will and kept in open cages with no human rights or recourse to law.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: stevetheORC
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:31 AM

That was very much the case during the 2 world war so some things never change.

ORC'S is cool in Winter

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:38 AM

Agreed, Teribus, they're mirror images to the extent that they seem like Mad Magazine's "Spy vs. Spy", but the point about Agee's book is that the CIA wasn't all that accountable.

If you end up behaving like the bad guys on the basis that "we're doing it because we're convinced that's what they'd do if they were in our position", can you still claim to be the good guys?   And all the rhetoric about democracy and freedom stinks against the background of what the Quiet Americans were up to all around the supposedly free world.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:04 AM

APC - totally agree - very true.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: BusbitterfraeScotland
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:42 AM

I don't want a war with Iraq, however when they do go to war with Iraq, what will happen Hussen, I don't know to spell his name.
I just hope that he will be put on trial as a war criminal.
Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: AKS
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 09:13 AM

"Many of them base their opinions on facts. Others base theirs on hope."

Some people seem to have the opinion that terrorism will end when Saddam has been put down! Which one is that based on, fact or hope?

AKS, a European

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 09:56 AM

An interesting question, BBFS. Will the US have the brass neck to use the international criminal court against him when they themselves undermined its universal credibility by excusing themselves from its jurisdiction?

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 10:17 AM

AKS (the European) you say:

"Some people seem to have the opinion that terrorism will end when Saddam has been put down!"

Where on earth did you get that from? It falls into neither of the categories mentioned, i.e. "Fact" or "Hope".

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 02:18 PM

DougR! thanks for your reply... Differring opinions are what make horse racing, and interesting conversation, they stimulate thought, and improve the overviews of scholars and laymen alike... I'm not in disagreement with you one iota on this one!

I'm a bit prone to standing up for the underdogs when a bully's got 'em down, and this impulse is triggered when I see the fascist bandwagon clammoring in any direction, ...shouting about the attributes of war and biggotry... while the wife and kids suffer the miseries of neglect and fiscal abuse...

So, please pardon me for my occasional outburst... There is so much pain created by the policies were discussing... and to little respect is being paid to the daily sacrifices our countryfolk, and the world's people, endure quietly...

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: AKS
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:50 AM

I knew I shouldn't have tried to be sarcastic!

What I mean is: Why is it so difficult, for so many people around the world, to accept this: War against terrorism (of any kind) can not be won by simply killing the bad guys! A killed bad guy always is someone's hero (=martyr), and that very someone is always more than willing and ready to step into his/her hero's boots, sooner or later.

Something more fundamental than violently establishing a new regime in Iraq is needed, says I.

AKS
(I do hope that above were not a fact, but I fear it is)

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:50 AM

APC - American "brass neck" will not come into it - Should Saddam Hussein ever appear before a court to answer for his crimes against humanity it will be the UN who drag him there.

AKS - I believe a great number of people throughout the world know only too well that you cannot win by simply "killing bad guys", there is a great deal more to it than that. Two notable examples one relates to a global conflict (World War II), the second relates to an insurrection in one country backed by another country (Malaya). In both those cases the need to fight was obvious and "bad guys" were killed. That part of the problem, although by no means insignificant in either case, was simple. The hard part, but definitely the most significant, was what was done and put in motion, even while hostilities were in progress, to ensure that peace, stability and prosperity would follow. In very simple terms - If you are planning to use a stick, make sure you also have at hand a bloody attractive carrot.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: AKS
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:06 AM

Isn't the carrot normally kept in front of the donkey, and the stick behind? Besides, where, or what, is the carrot right now? I see only heavy sticks.

AKS

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM

If you are planning to use a stick, make sure you also have at hand a bloody attractive carrot.

Sometimes this method is applied with enough integrity to work. But too often it is nothing more than extortion (remember protection money? "We won't burn your store down if you buy our "insurance""). Peope can usually tell when they're being extorted.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:54 AM

AKS,

Yes normally the carrot is in front, if the donkey doesn't go for the carrot you use the stick.

With regard to the present situation there are, as always a number of ways to look at it:

The situation with Iraq at present could be viewed as the carrot being the easy option for Iraq to comply with the requirements laid down by the UNSC Resolutions. If they follow that course Saddam and the Ba'ath Party stay in power and sanctions will be lifted. The stick is the threat of military intervention that will remove Saddam from power, probably remove the Ba'ath Party from power, result in the enforced disarmament of Iraq after which sanctions will be lifted.

Of the two you would then have to evaluate what would be the most desireable from the American point of view. If Saddam stays then he still needs to be watched closely. If he is deposed then the US must realise that they will be there for a very long time (Remember the US only got involved with the Iran-Iraq War because Saddam, who initiated the conflict, did not achieve his quick victory and was in danger of losing it. That could have led to the break up of Iraq which was not considered advantageous for the region in terms of American, French, British and Russian interests - so they all went to his assistance to ensure that he could disengage from that conflict with Iraq intact). Many of the same issues still apply so, if Saddam is deposed, Iraq must remain intact, some form of concensus democratic Iraqi government must be established and that government must be in the form of a secular Republic opposed to supporting terrorist groups elsewhere.

Taking a wider view of the region as a whole. The carrot is the prospect of implimenting a viable peace process with regard to the Israelis and the Palestinians. At present there is no prospect of that as long as there are non-frontline states such as Iraq and Iran funding Palestinian terrorist groups. If Iraq is forced to comply with UNSC Resolutions then similar pressure can be brought to bear on Israel to do the same. Only this time it will be America insisting that Israel complies, and the pressure that America can bring to bear in this instance would be extremely hard to resist, that's the stick.

It has to be done in that order because if done the other way round Israel would feel as though it was throwing away it's sovereign right to defend itself and that is one thing the Israelis will never ever do. Sharon got re-elected purely on the security issue, if attacks stop Sharon will negotiate, of that I have no doubt. The only trouble is, had the Palestinian elections gone ahead, Hammas would have won in a landslide. Hammas does not recognise the right of Israel to exist and seeks the total destruction of the state of Israel. It can only adhere to that view for as long as states like Iraq and Iran support them, therefore something has to be done to cause that support to be withdrawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:09 PM

AKS: I think Teribus handled the response to your question very well, and I won't try to elaborate on it other than to say that whoever these people are that think terrorism will be defeated with the defeat of Saddam just aren't facing reality. Even had we been successful in killing Bin Laden, it would not have been the end of Al Quida.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:21 PM

More like the beginning. Bin Laden killed would be far more powerful than Bin Laden living. That's the big difference between inspirational leaders whose role is to motivate people, and operational leaders, who actually organise things.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:47 AM

Uh, Prime Ministers of eight European countries signed a letter of support for President Bush. Germany and France were not part of the eight, of course, but what do you have to say to that? Are they part of Europe?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:44 AM

Doug, a response to your last question (in your own style):

Yes, both Germany and France are a part of Europe.

Wolfgang (grinning)

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:44 AM

From Davtnova's post above:

"Just a point. Uncle charlie reckons French resistance fighters were the most corageous of WWII. It is worth reflecting that under America's new rules, instituted after the invasion of Afganistan, these people would have been classified as unlawful combatants who could be blindfolded, taken anywhere in the world against their will and kept in open cages with no human rights or recourse to law."

An obvious point in response:

They would therefore have fared much better under America's new rules - Generally French Resistance Fighters were blindfolded and shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:40 AM

As was a pretty general practice in Afghanistan for captured Taliban fighters, it appears. If they were lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:49 AM

Ah ha, Wolfgang, but I was referring to the other eight countries!

:>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM

For some interesting and well documented information on the whole issue of war with Iraq and the "War on Terror", check out this site. (Take a careful look around. There's a lot of stuff in there.):

Center for Cooperative Research

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:38 PM

Carol C: when you point out that there is a "lot of interesting information," don't you mean there is a lot of interesting information that supports your viewpoint at that site?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

You don't really know what my viewpoint is, DougR, because I've never really stated it in any kind of detail. Nor will I at this particular juncture. All you can do is speculate.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM

Mmmm ! And interesting justaposition regarding the French resistance. I would make one small correction though. "blindfolded, tortured, then shot, if they were lucky".

Needless to say that great humanitarion, Saddam Hussain, has never had his opponents or "suspects", "blindfolded, tortured, then shot, if they were lucky", has he ????

And if we, the West, put him there, have we not a moral duty to rectify matters, hopefully peacefully, and preferably before he can do any more damage or death to his own people ????

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM

What Gareth said is more or less what Clinton was saying it in his speech to the British Labour Conference last autumn, and it's got some validity. But I haven't heard anything like that from Bush, or for that matter Blair, with them apologising for past policies and past actions.

I'm sure the people shot in the At Valentines Day Massacre were a pretty unsavoury bunch - but I don't think the fact that he rubbed them out is seen as a reason for defending Al Capone.

Predictions that oil revcenues will be used to defray the cost of the war and any occupation, and that foreign companies expect to make big profits out of exploiting Iraq's resources, don't really square with the notion that this is the West in penitent mood trying to undo some part of the damage it has done to the people of the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM

Depends on our motives, Gareth, whether or not they are self-serving and at the expense of innocents, or whether or not they are genuinely for the good of the people in the region. So far, our track record doesn't look too good in that respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Orac
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

Maybe the fellow's being a tad misrepresented. I didn't hear what Herr Rumsfeld actually said but maybe he only means that F & G don't speak for the whole of Europe... even though they certainly like to think they do... much to the irritatation of us in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:23 PM

Bumsfeld did say that France and Germany are the old Europe. The good news is that Britain is part of the new Europe, now joined by Berlusconi's Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: Orac
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:26 PM

Ah.. so all is not lost then..!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Germany and France are not Europe
From: DougR
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:54 PM

Orac: I think you make a good point in your post of 12:16 on 4 Feb.

DougR