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BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?

GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 08:14 PM
Mr Happy 29 Jan 03 - 08:25 PM
Cluin 29 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM
Little Hawk 29 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM
Cluin 29 Jan 03 - 08:33 PM
Mr Happy 29 Jan 03 - 08:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 08:51 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 09:41 PM
Bill D 29 Jan 03 - 09:42 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 29 Jan 03 - 10:12 PM
Amos 29 Jan 03 - 10:54 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 10:54 PM
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Sorcha 29 Jan 03 - 11:04 PM
Sorcha 29 Jan 03 - 11:11 PM
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GUEST 30 Jan 03 - 12:20 AM
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GUEST,Forum Lurker 03 Feb 03 - 10:47 PM
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artbrooks 28 May 03 - 12:42 PM
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GUEST 11 Jul 03 - 12:54 PM
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GUEST,Moloch 11 Jul 03 - 02:41 PM
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Amos 14 Jul 03 - 03:49 PM
GUEST 14 Jul 03 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Moloch 14 Jul 03 - 05:51 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 03 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 14 Jul 03 - 11:57 PM
*daylia* 15 Jul 03 - 07:46 AM
GUEST 25 Jul 03 - 10:33 PM
GUEST,Moloch 26 Jul 03 - 07:55 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jul 03 - 08:08 PM
artbrooks 26 Jul 03 - 08:52 PM

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Subject: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:14 PM

The Bushes belong to Bohemian Club. The club has meeting places around the world, but one of the favorites is in northern California. There, once a year, a couple thousand men meet for the 'Cremation of Care' ceremony, in which a sacrifice is made to a 40-foot stone owl deity. You can see streaming video of the ceremony at the URL below:

http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html

The owl god is Moloch, an ancient Canaanite god. The following is a description of the Canaanite ceremony:

...The Canaanites actually constructed a huge copper likeness of the deity, complete with a complicated mechanical ability to raise an arm and open it's mouth. This 30 to 40 ft. tall idol had a large belly that would be filled with firewood and stoked until the belly glowed orange. The children to be sacrificed would be made so that they could not move. How they did this is a mystery, but one can imagine that a sharp blow to the head or a combination of readily available drugs could render a person listless....

http://www.dunmoloch.com/moloch.html

And now you have the Bushes sending our children to that part of the world to end up "...bulldozed into mass graves and burned to save the lives of surviving troops, under an option being considered by the Pentagon..."

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/01/1565691.php

The Bushes are apparently preparing a huge sacrifice to Moloch in the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:25 PM

isn't 'Moloch' a fictional deity featured in 'The Time Machine'by H.G.Wells?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM

Nope.

The God Moloch, later a demon.

H.G. Wells'
molochs.

Different but related, sort of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM

Moloch has appeared here and there in both fiction and non-fiction. Demons, like Archangels, appear to have lengthy lifespans, and a tendency to keep returning to Earth to make "guest" appearances when conditions are right.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:33 PM

Sorry, that should be H.G. Wells' "morlocks".


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:48 PM

ah! confused this time of nicht- its me age y'no-
i meant molluscs! 8-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

In one of those Mudcat synchronicit things, in another thread I've just been drawing a parallel between the impending war and Rome's genocidal Third Punic War against the defeated Carthage - the one that led the Roman historian to say "They made a desert and they called it peace".

And Carthage had been where the Moloch sacrifices was said to have taken place. Mind, a lot more children were killed by the Romans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

Probably what GW calls the thing. But it's 'Moloch', and his old man appears to be pretty serious in his service of it. He and Cheney are sending lots of combustible troops over there for the bonfire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:51 PM

I think it'll be a nuclear bonfire. I think our CIA will nuke our congregation of troops massed in Pakistan. 50,000 in one ball of flame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 09:41 PM

You folks like to ridicule and discount, so convince me I'm wrong about this. Look at the video, look at some of the URLs and the current events, and convince me I'm completely off-base on this. CONVINCE me I'm posting from 'the twilight zone', I'm watching the X-files, and all those other pat ways you have of blocking out the unpleasant. These monsters are ancient and as dead serious as you can get. Your PRESIDENT is about to sacrifice Americans to an ancient Canaanite deity. I want to be wrong on this, so convince me I am, and back it up with references.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 09:42 PM

this 'guest' made one serious mistake...the first two words, "I think....

trolling has become quite an art, hmmm?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 10:12 PM

So Bush might be worshiping a god whose cult used to entail child sacrifice. Compare that to the worship of a god who frequently commanded his followers to commit mass genocide, often on tribes whose only crime was to inhabit the promised land and not worship him. Moloch and Jehovah both had some pretty nasty stuff to their names, 3000 YEARS AGO! I'd be a lot more convinced if you didn't constantly equate Bush being a bad person with Bush worshiping the wrong entity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 10:54 PM

The Moloch scenes in those two vidos are extremely weird indeed. But the mellerdrammer being added by the narrator is even more so -- although I do admire anyone who can hit the streets with a megaphone calling the Residnet "A Luciferian Twit!".

Wow. Wacky shit!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 10:54 PM

Not used to...still does. They practice it at Bohemian Grove. The Bushes practice it. I suspect some of you have done some searches on this new topic by now, and you CAN'T discount it. Prove me wrong, people. I don't WANT to believe the Bushes practice human sacrifice, but all indicators show they do, and they're gearing up for a really big one. I could deal with pig-blooded green-whores running our government...but worshippers of the Owl God? How do we deal with that? Or maybe it's not an issue. Prove me wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 10:56 PM

make that 'greed-whores'


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 11:04 PM

No, you better prove to me.............you're the one who brought it up. Sounds suspiciously like the Anti Semitsm crap. I don't like the Bush Bunch, but I am NOT ready to believe this........YOU prove it,beyond a shadow of a doubt.............


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 11:11 PM

Excuse me, but WHAT videos???


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 11:11 PM

How did you access the videos, Amos? I must be doing something wrong or my computer is lacking some software or something.

Forum Lurker - Spectacularly apt point about Jehovah!!! Right smack on the money with that one, I'd say. Watch out for people whose religion is full of blood, vengeance and the justification of slaughter in "God's name". The Nazis were heavy dabblers in both regular conventional Christianity (for the common masses and the ordinary soldiers), mixed with Nordic mythology, and then some really weird occult stuff for the leaders in the innermost circles of power.

It wouldn't surprise me too much if corporate America were doing something similar. Very rich people tend to get drawn into very peculiar stuff...too much power and too much money can do that to some people, maybe most people. That's what the movie "Eyes Wide Shut" was about.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 11:38 PM

OK, OK, I don't "belive" yet, but I have found a bunch of links I am checking out..........Bohemian Grove does exist, still looking for proof of the Moloch/sacrifice connection.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 11:51 PM

Actually, "belief" is just an opinion (informed or not informed). I don't count too heavily on stuff I merely believe...it's stuff I KNOW that I count heavily on. The stuff I merely believe in is interesting, but it remains somewhat speculative, although some beliefs are admittedly a lot firmer than others.

(For instance, I believe Hitler died in 1945. I don't know it for absolute certain, but I think the evidence that he did is pretty strong. I also believe Neil Armstrong was on the moon. Again, the evidence seems pretty convincing. I KNOW who I am and I KNOW I am alive and I KNOW life is valuable. I know I don't wish to kill anyone...although I'm not incapable of doing so. That's knowledge. I believe Bush is a misguided man on a disastrous course. That's opinion.)

The stuff other people believe in is interesting too, partly cos it tells you a lot about them...partly because it can open up new possibilities which one may not have considered before at all.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:01 AM

Exactly, Little Hawk. Sorry I wasn't more explicit. Still looking for the "proof"...............but it's an ineresting hypothesis.......Moloch, huh? Human sacrifice, huh?.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:20 AM

Anti-semite. Gimme a break. I hate Sharon but I don't hate Jews. I hate GWBush but I don't hate imbeciles. It TRULY PAINS me to present this crap to people, but I see NO evidence to contradict it. We didn't let a court stuff a lunatic into the White House...he's just following some plan we're not familiar with. Even the money angles don't make sense of the mess GW's made of the world. And he DOES participate in ritual sacrifice at least once a year, so why not rack up some BIG points with Moloch? Nuke Houston, nuke Dallas. Call me names if you must, but talk me out of this nagging conviction that a demon worshipper has his finger on the button.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:26 AM

The videos are at the bottom of the page, Little Hawk. Passing the cursor over the text beside the photos should turn up a link. I just clicked one and it began opening with the RealOne Player...my default player.

Oh, and I just recalled the good ol' boy who made these films is married to a Jew, Scorcha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:42 AM

Get real. It's a bonding ritual at best. They're not 'worshipping' a demon, just linking with each other. All societies; malignant or benevolent, secret, political, fraternal, religious, whatever; do this sort of thing, because it fulfills a basic human need for belonging to some sort of group (even loners, contradictory as that may sound).

It doesn't mean that they actively 'believe' in, nor that they are trying to reconstruct the creed of, some god whose original worship passed out of the world several thousnad years ago.

If (big "if", unbelievable "if", IMO) they really do want to see thousands of their own slaughtered, it'll be for pragmatic reasons, not from devotion to a dead god.

How many silly little rituals & ceremonies are enacted right across the US every week in universities, colleges, sports teams & the gods know where else? This is just another one of those. As Sorcha says, you raised it, you *prove* it beyond any doubt. Anyone can stick a sinister voice-over on an otherwise innocent vid-clip. I bet if Dubya responded in kind, he could reveal all sorts of sinister agenda & intent on the part of the film-maker. Who you going to believe?

When it comes down to it, what you 'want' to believe is anything & everything negative you hear about Bush & The Establishment. Whether it's true or not doesn't actually matter very much, I fear. I could theorize about what kind of thrills you get out of all this paranoia & trolling that you're doing, but this latest load of rubbish is lame, even for you...

LH hits it almost smack on. Base your beliefs on facts wherever possible. Base your facts on your beliefs, & you'll wind up... well, where you already are. The trouble with all of your 'facts' is that they could be linked up & interpreted in thousands of different ways, most of them more or less inocent.

But you like/want/need to believe in only the sinister & awful possibilities. Which is why most people will continue to regard you as rather detached from reality...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:57 PM

But this isn't my 'belief'. The film is there. The ceremony is there. It was filmed. Modern man worshipping Moloch. And one of those modern men is our so-called president. Our president is worshipping Moloch. So WHAT if it's just 'ritual'. Our president is worshipping Moloch. Let me repeat, in case some of the finer points in this were lost on you...our president is worshipping Moloch. Does that get through? Explain away all you want, but our president is taking part in a human-sacrifice ritual and worshipping Moloch. He is worshipping Moloch, in case you didn't understand part of this. THAT is the reality, and I wish I WERE detached from it, but in THIS world...the real world...GWBush is worshipping Moloch. Don't you see that as a bit of a problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:08 PM

It TRULY PAINS me to present this crap to people,

Oh, I really feel your pain...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:14 PM

There is no firm evidence of human sacrifice. There is evidence of a ritualistic ceremony which emulates human sacrifice. It is not dissimilar to the Sacrament in which people do some weird shit with blood and flesh, symbolized by Gallo and saltines.

Now, if you want a phancy interpretation about the transcendance of fleshly concerns for the good of the Higher Group, I can write one for ya but I charge for the time. In advance.

It is also not clear that these people are genuinely worshiping anything, except power itself. 'Course that whole point is a semantic minefield. SInce the translation of Moloch itself is closely related to secular leaders such as a king, or president, it is possible they are "celebrating" the accrual of power in secular affairs tot he detriment of their spiritual standards.

By the way, the original concept of the Divine Trinity was anchored around Baal, whom Moloch allegedly serves. Baal is the Hebrew word used to describe the god Melq'art, sone of El and brother of Astarte, the mother-goddess in the ancient Phoenician hierarchy. As such, Baal was the sun god. The Ammonites, later than the Phenicians, added the overlay of Moloch and his sacrifices of children through fire. Originally, Meq'art was simply the divine representation of seasons, sunlight, and fire.

Finally the traditional image of Moloch is not an owl, but a human/bull combination. The owl was symbolic of Lilith the night-witch, a stealer of children, but not renowned for burning them, as far as I know.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:32 PM

I want to thank our GUEST for some of the funniest stuff I've read this week.

Ah, yes, the "InfoWars" site -- true tales ripped from the pages of the finest comic book journalism. The video looks like a poorly staged school play overlaid with curiously higher-resolution still pictures of "damning" evidence. Adobe Premier, anyone? The global elite? Nowhere in the video. The crowd noises? Damn, if it doesn't sound like "Applause #13" out of the Sound Ideas sound effects library, volumn #31.

Just because a conspiracy web site says so doesn't mean it's true. If the New York Times busts this story open, I might consider it, because they have a vested interest in trying to protect their reputation. The only reputation this web site has is churning out a bunch of outlandish stories. Hey, they might even print a true one occassionally -- but the goal is to shock and astonish, not to present truth.

"All indicators?" What, a fuzzy video that may or may not be fake and may or may not have anything to do with the people in question? Unsubstantiated allegations? There's nothing to refute or disprove, because no proof has been presented of any kind.

Anyway, so what if our President worships an ancient diety? Hey, guess what, he DOES!

Somehow mock sacrifices to a God seems no more sick to me than consuming the flesh and drinking the blood of a diety during Communion. Somehow sacrificing lives to Moloch seems no more sickening than sacrificing lives to the God Jehovah in a crusade against Islam, sacrificing lives to the God of Oil, the God of Capitalism or the God of Democracy.

There's enough nasty crap going on in government without having to resort to bogeyman tales and the tired rehashing of variations on urban legands and conspiracy tales that have been around for centuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

There are dozens of photos of Bohemian Grove on the internet...from various sources. There is no doubt the video was filmed at the site in northern California. The ritual takes place once a year.

And how can the human sacrifice to Moloch be compared to the Christian sacrament for the purposes of this discussion? GWBush claims to be a Christian, yet he participates in the worship of Moloch. How can that be? The two can't be reconciled.

You people sound pretty desperate to disprove this, but the proof still stands. Keep on trying to convince me our president doesn't engage in human sacrifice rituals to an ancient pagan god. I want to believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:01 PM

I think you are confusing disdain for desperation. No "proof" stands, because you've yet to present any.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:16 PM

"The burden of proof is on the assertor"...no one has to prove 'wrong' a complex theory built on a few facts, linked in someone's head in an arcane way. Lest this not be misunderstood..""The burden of proof is on the assertor""...that is, if you make a claim, YOU, the assertor, have to prove it...it has to be proof that would satisfy the majority of competent observers, not just someone who already has the will to believe this sort of thing.

(Did I mention that "proof" is a pretty stringent requirement, and that the one who offers the theory is the one who needs to GIVE that proof?)

Oh, BTW, proof is a lot more than showing a few pictures, and then speculating wildly about the 'intent' of those depicted in the images, or claimed to have been in the vicinity.

p.s..... there are those who are a bit picky about what they accept as 'proof', or did I mention that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:28 PM

what a load of crap. that "film" is phonier than Plan 9 From Outer Space. What next, Art Bell?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM

It'd make a great film though, wouldn't it - the Demon President. The Central Incantation Agency. The Fiendish Bureau of Infestation. The Evil Office. Buffy the Intern to sort things out...

There was this quiz on the TV and someone was asked where Dracula came from. "Pennsylvania" was the response. Why not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:48 PM

OK, show me what's so off-target about my assertions. The place exists, and our 'president' engages in human-sacrifice / burning ceremonies there. And now he's getting ready to launch 'pre-emptive' fireballs at the rest of the world and burn our troops in the field. So let me in on the joke. Why do I not view this as funny?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM

GUEST every time a Catholic priest says Mass, he symbolically re-enacts the torture, execution, death, and public consumption of the body of his slain God! The same way as the Eastern Woodland nations of this continent would ritually torture, kill and then eat the bodies of the brave young warriors they had captured.

It stunned and horrified the Jesuit missionaries first witnessing this among the Huron and Iroquois, not only that the young captives were decorated and treated with utmost respect and ceremony by their captors, but that they were truly ecstatic, singing joyously throughout the whole ordeal! To be courageous enough to be sacrificed was the ultimate honor, the ultimate end of 'godhood' for those young men. But what the Jesuits, (who labelled them savage brutes in sorry need of 'redemption') didn't understand is that the Mass they say every day is exactly the same ritual, carried out for the same purposes, in symbolic form.

Ancient rituals enacting and evoking the power of the fundamental mystery of life - that life feeds on death, requires death - are universal throughout human history. Everything you eat was once alive, be it plant or animal. We must kill to eat, we must eat to live. Without death, there is no life. That is the 'horrific' nature of life, of Creation! The names and dates of the peoples and deities change, but the basic song remains the same. The God of Life, of Fertility and Wisdom is exactly the same as the God of War, of Death. The 'Lord of the Dance', of life and death, birth and rebirth, so to speak. So there is nothing new or strange here.

I did watch part of the videos, but the quality is so poor I gave up unable to recognize any of the images with certainty. And I did read Alex Jones' story "Bohemian Grove". Its worthy of mention that even the author states he is not certain whether an effigy or a human being was burned at that alleged ritual!

But even if the President of the US et al are engaged in rituals of this type, is this something which truly threatens me? Not in the least! ... unless I believe that the ritual has the power to affect me! Then my terror and hopelessness may very well get the best of me!

The same way as only people who believe in the power of a voodoo hex to harm them can be victimized by such things. There's no 'dark magic' here except the dark magic of the human mind!

So what's the best thing I can do right now? Get back to enjoying and celebrating and being productively creative in every moment of my truly miraculous existence right here and now? You betcha!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:03 PM

I didn't see anything to indicate any level of credible "proof" that GW is involved in any way other than perhaps to have been on the same planet (I said "perhaps") when the (clearly phony) events were staged.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:22 PM

*sigh* Okay, but only for the sake of enlightening the clueless.

"The place exists"
Yes. Bohemian Grove is a private club in Sonoma County. It was found c. 1879 by a group of journalists who wanted to have a bash in the woods and do what we would call "networking" today.
Membership is exclusive, but not very expensive as private clubs go. Membership happens to include many major political figures, most of whom are definately leaning toward the right. The clubs activities are very private and exclusive.

The above can be said about many other private clubs, college fraternal organizations and societies.

"and our 'president' engages in human-sacrifice / burning ceremonies there."
GWBush the Lesser is a member, as were many past presidents. While many rumors abound about what goes on inside the club including human sacrifice, there is no proof. Testimonial accounts of "infiltrators" are notoriously inaccurate for any activity, let alone one for which so much rumor abounds, and particularly since they don't agree with each other. Videos looked faked. They are not neccessarily taken on site and can easily be digitally manipulated.

Proof: NONE
Human-sacrifice: Allegations that have not held up under investigation
Burning ceremonies: Who cares? Having a bonfire is illegal? Better tell every college in the country to cancel their pep rallys!
Presidential involvement: Unproven. He may or may not have been present at any of these purported ceremonies and many or may not have taken part.
Worship of Moloch: also unproven and merely hypothesized. Originally, the attendees burned the mascot of Care to symbolize that they were going to put their cares aside and have fun.

"And now he's getting ready to launch 'pre-emptive' fireballs at the rest of the world and burn our troops in the field. "
Irrelevant, unless you happen to buy all of the above.

"And how can the human sacrifice to Moloch be compared to the Christian sacrament for the purposes of this discussion?"
Yes, yes, I can do that. From where I'm sitting, Christianity looks like a cult that glorifies the sacrifice of a "king" in order to save the land and people. Hardly original in religious mythos and very ancient in origin. If the rumors said Bohemian Grove took a big tofu body, roasted it, sliced it an ate it, no doubt everyone would be decrying "cannabalistic rituals."

Is it pagan worship? I doubt it, but I don't care, because I don't equate "pagan" with bad anymore than I equate "Christian" with good. Freedom of religion cuts both ways.

My guess at the truth: There are some legitimate concerns about Bohemian Grove. Big movers and shakers get together and get drunk and make deals that may affect the citizenry. Hence, the origin of the protests. Quite frankly, this can happen in a bar in Georgetown, so I am less worried about what politicians do than trying to get honest ones in office.

Secrecy begets rumor, and gullible conspiracy theorists hate to be on the outside. If there's anything worse than looking in at a group you'll never belong to, it's not being allowed to look in! If it's secret, therefore it must be evil, right?

Yeah, there's probably a bonfire. Yeah, they give some speeches. Yeah, I bet they get drunk and if some of 'em aren't doing drugs I'd be surprised. I'm guessing a lot of whoring and such goes on. Those good ol' boys get together and cut loose. Of course they don't want anyone to find out, as it doesn't fit their carefully crafted cleancut image.

Uh huh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:46 PM

Secrecy begets rumor, and gullible conspiracy theorists hate to be on the outside. If there's anything worse than looking in at a group you'll never belong to, it's not being allowed to look in! If it's secret, therefore it must be evil, right?



Nicole:

You make my heart sing!! LOL!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:16 PM

...and did mention that I hadn't seen 'proof' that the.....oh, yeah, I guess I did...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:10 PM

A bit weird for someone who likes going in for "crusades", even if it was all just some kinky rich kids game. But then a bit weird is what you'd expect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:24 PM

Hey, I live up here in the woods of Northern California. The people here worship large SUV's, not this Moloch guy.
I suppose they smoke a little weed now and then. Do you think Bush does that? Hell, does he even come to Northern California? I've never seen the guy, and I hope I never do.

Actually, you can find some interesting information about the Bohemian Club rumors at hoaxinfo.com. I think the person who started this thread has provided convincing proof that bush might belong to a rich boys' club - but didn't we know that already? I think it's also been proven that the person who started this thread is somewhat of a crackpot.

-Joe Offer, who drives a Honda Civic-


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:27 PM

early in the campaign, I remember Bush making clear that he considered Jesus as responsible for his recovery from moderate alcoholism...He is as 'sure' of his moral/religious ground as any devout Muslim, and I have no doubt that it is only with great restraint that he does not inject this righteousness into the public/political arena more overtly.

There was a semi-cute little bumper-sticker joke going around a few years ago..."Kill a Commie for Christ". Only, in some folks minds, it is not so funny...and various things can be substituted for 'commie'.

No...I do not read minds, and I do not 'know' exactly how Bush, or anyone else, thinks. But I think I'd be scared out of my wits if I did!


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM

You fossils are certainly resistant to new ideas. Or rather, the resurgence of old ideas. Bush goes to Bohemian Grove, where they have child/fire sacrifices to an ancient demon, and his military just announced it plans to burn young Americans in Iraq...historically the mother of all demon-plagued areas of the world.

And this isn't any third-party voodoo scenario, where you have to BELIEVE in the voodoo for it to work. Or maybe it is, so wait a minute...THERE! I just imagined GWBush DOESN'T have his finger on the button, so that makes the possibility of him being a demon-worshipper a moot point, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:36 PM

Well I don't imagine it would have gone down too well with the voters if he'd said that he owed his recovery from alcoholism to Moloch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:41 PM

You berate others for supposedly being resistant to new ideas, while clinging to pathetic superstitions like demons?

GUEST, you may believe what you wish, whether it's in some hypothetical sacrifice to a demon (and why is that more horrifying that sacrificing soldiers to the demon of Money?) or in some conspiracy about the WTC bombings back when shrubs were planted around the white house 100 years ago. I think it's safe to say that we don't share your paranoid visions.

I have my own paranoid, visions, thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

But this isn't MY vision. It's the Bush family's. And I don't much care for it. Sure, maybe Moloch got GW off the bottle, but I don't think having a pResident who might be drinking baby's blood is any more interested in our well-being than one who drinks Jim Beam. And do I HAVE to be tolerant of demon-worshippers like the Bushes? Can't I be just a LITTLE politically incorrect here and say I don't think burning babies is OK? The subject of anti-semitism came up earlier, well, can I be just a LITTLE politcally incorrect and say I think the Nazis put a couple of toes over the line when they murdered millions of Jews? Nah...I think Moloch-worshipping is a bit much. I'm against it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:17 PM

Guest, ya gotta realize, sometimes the voices are only kidding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:36 PM

And these hypothetical sacrificed babies' bodies are *where* exactly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:41 PM

Voices? I have SHOWN you Bohemian Grove, the Bushes attending the rituals there, human sacrifice by fire at those rituals, and Bush saying he's going to burn American troops. No one has yet dispelled the nagging feeling I have that the Bushes are demon-worshippers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:44 PM

The bodies are burned to ash, no doubt. But that area of California is notorious for it's number of kids found in shallow graves. Polly Klass (sp?) was found there...big nationwide story with laws resulting from her murder. If you want stories on bodies and Bushes, just look at Florida's record (Bush state). The man Jeb appointed to manage the Child Protective Services database is a convicted child sex offender, and thousands of kids are missing in Florida.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:45 PM

bullshit. you provided a link to a phony hoax website. not even worthy of writing up in a tabloid for checkout line consumption. Sam Raimi did better when he was 22. Are you really completely unfamiliar with notions of credible evidence and the demands of logical skepticism?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:52 PM

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/4026447.htm

Florida's embattled child-welfare agency -- the Department of Children & Families -- employs at least 183 people who have been arrested and punished for an array of felonies including child molestation, child abuse, sex crimes, drug dealing, even welfare fraud against the agency itself, a Herald investigation has found.

For instance, the head of the agency's data-security team in Tallahassee is listed on the state's list of sexual predators for molesting a 5-year-old boy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:55 PM

You have to be able to recall what was said at one site as you go to another, Buck. Requires cognitive ability. Sorry you're not up to it. Your 'big picture' will always be the size of a postage stamp, but then you'll always be happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 10:29 PM

Children sacrificed to Moloch? Yes. That's one of the reasons the Romans wiped out the Carthagenians. For some reason they hated human sacrifice. Since Scipio Africanus plowed salt into the dead earth of Carthage, There's no evidence the cult has survived.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Troll
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 10:37 PM

GUEST, you have obviously been brainwashed by the CIA to post these totally fantastic acusations against the Bush family. Their reasons for having you do this are not yet quite clear but may have to do with using you as some kind of Red Herring to shift attention away from other matters.

OK, BOZO. PROVE THAT I'M WRONG!!!

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 10:59 PM

Go to Santa Fe in September when the locals burn Zozobra at the stake. Join in the cheers as he burns in agony. This yearly affair makes the Bohemian Club bonfire pale into clichéd insignificance.
Free to everyone, no club fees necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 11:03 PM

Bill Clinton got a blowjob and it stopped the U.S. government in it's tracks. I guess GW participating in human sacrifices isn't as serious a character issue as a blowjob. What the heck was I thinking?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 11:08 PM

The History of the
Burning of Will Shuster's Zozobra

Zozobra is a hideous but harmless fifty-foot bogeyman marionette. He is a toothless, empty-headed facade. He has no guts and doesn't have a leg to stand on. He is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. He never wins. He moans and groans, rolls his eyes and twists his head. His mouth gapes and chomps. His arms flail about in frustration. Every year we do him in. We string him up and burn him down in ablaze of fireworks. At last, he is gone, taking with him all our troubles for another whole year. Santa Fe celebrates another victory. Viva la Fiesta! - A.W. Denninger


Ah, GuestQ, but maybe he is real? Can you personally prove that he is not? Sounds dark and ominous to me.

Frankly, I like best troll's insight. I think he has blown GUEST's cover; GUEST is working for the CIA and is botching it. Just wait until they catch on. GUEST is going to have to pull his computer under the bed with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 11:17 PM

"The bodies are burned to ash, no doubt."
Bwahahahaha!

Heaven forbid that the voice of science intrudes, BUT --

Okay, do me a favor, since you love surfing the internet for "truth." Look up the average temperature inside, say, a large bonfire -- heck, let's say a petroleum fueled bonfire -- and the temperature required to cremate a body.

Here's a hint -- even today, our crematoriums at 2000+ degrees Farenheit can't completely burn bones. They have to be pulverized.

"But that area of California is notorious for it's number of kids found in shallow graves"
Damn, it is? You know, I live in "that are of California." As you might guess, I keep up with the news, and I can't say I've ever heard such an allegation. No Cal if notorious for many other things, mind you, but not kids found in shallow graves.

*BRRRRRNT* Wrong answer, try again.

You know, I think all those Bohemian Grove conspiracy theorists get it confused with Burning Man.

P.S. Of course, you had better not believe me. I might be Dick Cheney trying to cover my tracks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:17 AM

The Bushes will be wanting your crematorium expertise before long, NicoleC. Send that resume to the White House.

And it's Polly Klaas...foundation named after her. Petaluma, CA. And forgive me for not acknowledging California as the model of sanity we all know it to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 03:00 AM

OK having looked at a number of your threads, I gather that you Hate GW and his company of merry men, you also believe that we are all going to die ( well ok that bits true and holds water)everything is a great cospiracy ( but the rest of the world cant/wont see it)
What exactly are YOU going to do about it!!!!

Now if everything that you say is TRUE then shit why worry cos we is all dead anyhow!!! and what will this demon worshiping mob get out of a dead world??? cos if we is all gone who are they going to boss around???

Live Long and keep your fantasy to yourself, the rest of us have enough proplems in the real world without you adding to them.

ORC'S are great diplomats!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:21 AM

Nah, Troll, you're wrong. What Guest really is, is a spotty adolescent, child of a long absent, but abusive & alcoholic, father & a hooker. This could easily explain the desparate insecurity, that runs alongside the constant need to seek attention that has been perpetually displayed. Obviously brought up in such an appalling environment, it would also explain Guest's inability to understand the logical demolotion of his 'theories' that has been offered time & again by virtually every board member who has bothered to reply to him. And unsurprisingly, this poor, neglected child is also a complete social inadequate who can only interact through a keyboard, limiting his education, world view, & social skills even further, thus resulting in the regular abuse sprinkled ranting that he posts...

Well, it's a good theory, isn't it? It certainly fits all of the available evidence doesn't it? The trouble is, Guest Nutball, (assuming you're still reading this & haven't gone off on a froth-at-the-mouth fruit loop) there are thousands of possible sets of circumstances that could produce the kind of person who would post the inane garbage that you do. I just made my theory up. Is it right? I very much doubt it, but I'll lay odds on that most people on this board would lend a thousand times more credence to *my* self-admittedly invented theory, than they would to any of those of yours that you so desparately need to believe in.

As to "Modern man worshipping Moloch", no you didn't need to repeat it fourteen times before I could understand it. You believe it's absolutely true, I believe he's just participating (assuming he is actually there anyway, which seems doubtful) in some juvenile frat tradition. Shall I repeat that for your benefit fourteen times, or do you get the message first time? I see no 'evidence'. I see no 'proof'. Nobody here has seen any 'evidence' or 'proof'. Images can very, very easily be manipulated, or even faked in this day & age (clue: the machine you're using to talk to the rest of us is probably capable of doing the job...).

Stop saying "the video shows...", because it shows f*** all! Prove that is genuine. Prove it has not been manipulated. Prove it has not been faked. If you manage to do that, you then have to prove that they really believe in Moloch & aren't just playing around, having a fun bonfire.

For crying out loud, Guest, even the man you're using as evidence says 'mock sacrifice'. Mock Sacrifice. MOCK SACRIFICE. MOCK SACRIFICE!!! Am I getting through yet? Etcetera. But you seem to have decided they're sacrificing real victims all by your little, lone, sad, self...

You don't want to believe us. You just like the attention & the sound of your own voice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:30 PM

"And forgive me for not acknowledging California as the model of sanity we all know it to be."

Ahhh... now I understand. It's believable because everyone knows all sorts of crazy stuff goes on in California!

And if you know all about California (population 34 million) from Annette Funicello beach party movies and a few tired videos of 60's love-ins, I guess it all makes perfect sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:45 PM

Raedwulf opines, "...I believe he's just participating...in some juvenile frat tradition...."

Oh yeah...frats burn children in human sacrificial ceremonies. Whacky frats. What was I thinking? I'm glad GW gets time off from the job to burn babies, or he might make a mess of things, huh?

But enough sarcasm. What are the facts in this case?:
*Bohemian Grove exists
*The Bushes go there
*Each July they have a 'Creamtion of Care' ceremony where they sacrifice to a 40-foot stone owl. Even if you don't believe the video that was taken at the risk of life, there are plenty of credible descriptions of the ceremony on the internet...from upright social figures who apparently view human sacrifice like you do...just a frat thing.
*CONCLUSION: We have a man in the White House who participates in demonological human sacrifice ceremonies.
*PROGNOSIS: Not good, unless you're a 40-foot owl god.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM

point 3 is not proven. Amazing jump of conclusion from toasting marshmallows in hte open air to "sacrifice." Where's your evidence for "sacrifice" and "demonological" and "owl god." Sorry, this elevator is missing too many floors (and I don't think it goes all the way to the top).


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

Hey, Nicole -- we're having a love-in next month -- bring your yacht!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

All-riiight! I'll harvest some of the buds growing in my closet, wax up my surfboard and drive down in my '74 VW Thing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:18 PM

Far out, man!! Just don't drive through that grove place. I hear they sacrifice virgins, and are very nearsighted as well.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:26 PM

*COOL!* Any extra room for a frozen Canuck in that '74 VW Thing Nicole?

BTW if it makes anyone feel any better, Moloch is no 'demon'. According to Farrar's dictionary of 'The Gods of the World',
Moloch is (was) a deliberate Hebrew misvocalization of the Phoenician 'm-l-k' ('malek' or 'melek') meaning simply 'king' or 'lord', The Hebrews turned this title into a derogatory word for a 'heathen' god - in this case, Baal-Hammon of Carthage, the ancient god of fertility, vegetation and wisdom, to whom sacrifices were allegedly made.

But animal sacrifices were ritually offered by the Hebrews to Yahweh even up to Jesus' time, if not later. And it's odd that Yahweh Himself commanded Abraham to sacrifice his own son Isaac as a token of loyalty! Must have been the politically correct thing for these tribal gods to do at the time ...

Apparently the ancient Hebrews did the same 'demonizing' with the word Sin. 'Sin' was the ancient Chaldean, Sumerian, Assyro-Babylonian God of the Moon, of wisdom, of measuring time. Known as "He whose deep heart no god may penetrate', he was the enemy of evil-doers, portrayed as a old man with a beard the color of lapis lazuli. Mount Sinai was named after him. But we all know what his name means today! So does that make him a 'demon' now? Hmmmmmm

More importantly, does it really matter at all?

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

No, it doesn't matter at all. Big deal if the Prez is into child sacrifice. Make sure your kids register for the upcoming draft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:10 PM

Methinks I've sighted A Theory:

The current person occupying the White House and serving as the President of the United States is NOT, I repeat NOT, George W. Bush!

Can't be.

It's simple: his parents sacrifice to Moloch. Moloch wants the first-born child -- not the second or sixth, but the first. The first child born to George Herber Walker Bush and wife Barbara was George W. Bush (born July, 1946). This child *had* to be sacrificed to Moloch!

Hence the person in the White House CANNOT be who he says he is!

I suspect that he's really Saddam Hussein, and the person in Iraq is a body double....


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:16 PM

I don't think I need to worry about that "virgin sacrifice" bit, Amos :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:20 PM

Wonderful, Rapaire! Now all you need is a chintzy webpage and you can save the world - then maybe take command yourself! Just ask our expert GUEST to help you set it up ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM

Nicole:

That's why I mentioned the nearsighted part.... :>)


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 03:55 PM

Ah, I see. The high priests are supposed to be able to spot virgins just by looking at them, but they're nearsighted and won't admit their mistakes... :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:20 PM

As m'lord Mulligan says, point 3 not proven. You've missed the train again, Guest Nobody, (are you standing in the middle of nowhere waiting for a Greyhound, I wonder...).

You haven't proved that the 'Cremation of Care' ceremony is a bona fide human sacrifice. You haven't proved any more than the vaguest of links 'twixt Dubya & the Bohemian ("The Bushes attend Bohemian Grove, Bohemian Grove holds annual bonfires allegedly to Moloch, therefore Bush worships Moloch! [rollseyes] Doh! This is beyond even Homer Simpson's brand of logic...).

So no, "*CONCLUSION: We have a man in the White House who participates in demonological human sacrifice ceremonies." is utter, utter bolocks, because you've still failed to prove the slightest link between Bush & human sacrifice, or between Bush & Moloch.

You are one sad sorry little individual, Mister I Can't Bear To Admit To A Name Guest. BTW, "we", "our" - sorry to disappoint, but I'm not on your side of the pond. The Shrub ain't my president, pal. If I thought you represented the average intelligence of the American voter, I wouldn't wonder that he was apparently & allegedly Prez. As it is, I'm tempted to give credence to some conspiracy theories, but your particular variations are a deal too much to swallow...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:29 PM

That's right. Your boy Blair is GW's lapdog. Is that where you get your handle from...the wolf/lapdog connection?

It doesn't really matter if they throw a Barbie doll into the fire in front of the 40-foot owl demon at Bohemian Grove. It's still participation in a pagan ritual and not acceptable of people (lots of foreign leaders participate too...wouldn't be surprised if your wormy old Windsor family fouls the air there), such behavior is simply not acceptable on the part of people claiming to be Christian.

So point # 3 is valid.

And did you see the story the other day about how your military is going to cordon off London at the first sign of a bio outbreak? At least in America we have guns when the killing-for-food starts. We can protect ourselves. But you folks...you're seriously deluded if you think GWBush with his Windsor and NM Rothschild and Lord Wakeham and BCCI connections isn't your problem. He's made your Prime Minister his whore, you twit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:34 PM

But in fairness, some people say our current mess is really just the Brits' way of reasserting Empire. The Rothschilds have a fondness for England, and America was allowed to think of itself as free when, all the while over the past couple hundred years, the Bank of England (the world's first central bank) has been pulling our strings. So maybe Britain is about to take control of the world. What a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:05 PM

I like that scenario better, Gusty. Let's go with it!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:16 PM

Yep. Few seem to recall that having the position of the world's biggest bully never lasts forever. The Romans seem to have had the longest go at it, but eventually all the ill-will they stirred up came back and bit 'em. I think the Brits feel shortchanged that they didn't get to be top dog for as long, and want another go at it :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM

Well, they did it with such panache, you know -- elegance, as it were; they made such an art out of supercilious superiority that its never been rivalled seriously since, except perhaps by Al Qaeda! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 07:56 PM

We are superior in every way and lets not have any of you colonial types forgetting it or we will have our puppet GW sacrifice you all to a 40 ft high barbie doll dressed in pink.
As for her most Majestic Queeny I thought that everyone knew that she is in charge of the intenational arm of murder inc (based at mother care)

ORC'S is even more Supirior n Snooty so suck a lemon:0))


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:17 PM

I still think the Demon President would make a great movie. I'm surprised they've never made it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:25 PM

"The Omen" series came pretty close with the character of Damien Thorne.
Brrr it just got colder in here ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: JennyO
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:50 PM

GUEST said:

"..it's still participation in a pagan ritual..."

You are showing your ignorance here, obviously equating "pagan" with "devil worship" You, and many others like you, believe the bad press and misrepresentation that has been promoted by the Christian Church for centuries, designed to make people fear what they don't understand, thereby making them easy to control.

I am a pagan. I am not a devil worshipper, I don't sacrifice babies or anything else. In fact my way of being involves having respect for all beings, and always working for the highest good in the world. Yes, we sometimes have rituals, and you, looking through your particular filter, could put any meaning you want on them, when in fact they are about honouring the earth, the elements, and the great goddess, and bringing about positive changes, for the good of all.

I am not closed to the idea that some of what you have said may be true, but I can't prove it, and even if I could, there is nothing I can do about it, and nothing you can do about it either. That does not mean I am giving up. It means that I choose to live in the world with love for every living being, and looking at the REALLY big picture, love is the only thing that is ultimately going to make a difference in the world. This is what works for me.

If your present way of being works for you, that is fine, but you aren't necessarily going to get agreement from folks like me who have a different way of being. If agreement is what you want, then I would suggest that you be more careful of the words you use, try not to confuse other people's assumptions and opinions with facts, only speak your truth, not somebody else's, and you might gain more respect from some of us here.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:01 AM

In my experience, Bush is a fundamentalist Christian who enjoys reminding all of his constituents (that would be every American who ever listens to a word he says) that we are a Christian nation, that God is responsible for all the good in the world, and that prayer is more effective than thought.

I was mortally offended when he pulled the religion card today while speaking about those who died on the Columbia space shuttle. How fucking tasteless. Did he even stop to think that not all of those people or their families believed in the same religious ideology that he does? Peter Jennings immediately commented upon it saying Bush was offering his "personal religious" views; well done, I say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:10 AM

Peg, if I had your attitude I'd be careful about speaking English in public places. After all, a few people there might speak a different language, and heaven forbid I might offend them!

If anyone feels threatened by a consoling passage from the Bible (or any other 'sacred text') read by their leader during a poignant moment of national grief, their own personal religious convictions - or lack of them - must be pretty insecure. Bone up, I say!

According to stats posted here on Mudcat recently, over 75% of Americans do claim Christianity as their basic belief system. Surely their needs and desires deserve a bit of respect and recognition! So get with the picture ...

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:17 AM

PS - since the passage chosen is from Isaiah, it's familiar to Jews and Muslims as well as Christians. No offence intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:38 AM

daylia:

I speak English in public places frequently. I lecture at a local college in fact. Gosh imagine those young minds I'm polluting.

Anyway, the reason I was offended by Bush's biblical quoting has nothing to do with Christianity itself. As the leader of a diverse nation, and as a world leader commenting upon an *international* (not just national: one of the astronauts was an Israeli and one was an immigrant from India) tragedy, I believe he ought to make more of an effort to avoid imbuing his words with his own PERSONAL religious views. (Mr. Jennings, a Canadaian, apparently agreed with me).

It is no secret that Bush has taken every available opportunity to foist his Christian beliefs upon the US public, beginning with his inaugural address in which not just God but Jesus was invoked several times. This country has a clearly-stated separation of church and state. To assume every person in the throaes of grief turns to the Christian God or Jesus is narrow-minded and arrogant. Government should not be a platform for religion. Any religion.

Your assessment of my own religious convictions is patently incorrect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:58 AM

Peg - The President, as well as every other citizen of the US is entitled to express his religious beliefs (or lack of them) without sanction. Just because someone speaks their beliefs publicly doesn't mean they are "shoving them down anyone's throat". I don't hold to any particular religious belief system, yet I find none of them threatening and all of them quite interesting!

So I say again, the only way I'd felt 'threatened' by someone else's beliefs, is if my own personal convictions (and self-esteem) were pretty flimsy. So rather than trying to change them, I'd just work on myself!

Peace

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:20 AM

Daylia:

I think you're mixing it up with the wrong tabby, ma'a'm.

I find public protestations of belief to be completely tolerable in individuals speaking as private individuals, however thick-headed. When Bush professes them from his bully pulpit as the Furless Leider of the Western World, it is another matter. I consider it an invasive and presumptuous abuse of position.

It is not a matter of feeling threatened by the belliefs involved at all -- I have long since outgrown my fear of fairy tales. The notion that Christianity is threatening as a belief set is ridiculous, or humorous at best.

But what can be a threat is mob psychology and mass mindless reactions. Making religous views into a part of political commentary from the top opens the door to some serious manipulation, an art of which Mister Bush is a perfervid practitioner.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:48 AM

Amos and Peg, I do see your point(s). But does that mean that anyone who accepts a position as 'public servant' must forfeit their right to religious freedom of expression for fear of possible offending or influencing someone? If so, then isn't everyone's 'freedom' at risk?
   
I'm no fan of GWBush by any means, but if he'd quoted from Shakespeare instead ('O death where is thy sting' or something) would that be 'offensive' to anyone not of English background, or anyone who didn't care for Shakespeare? Undoubtedly there'd be some who found anything he said offensive!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:30 AM

D:

No it does not. It is very clear when an individual speaks as a person, individual citizen, and when he takes on the role of Government Representative. Mister Tush was speaking in his role as President. As the Official Moron of the United States, he could have been more sensitive to this issue, but he subscribes to arrogance as apreferred modus operandi, I think.

Unfortunately he does not understand what the difference between Church and State implies, nor does he know or care why it is an honored principle over centuries. Quoting from Shakespeare of any poet in any language who writes outside the framework and vocabulary of a religion would havebeen far preferable in my mind. There are some things that are common to all humanity, and Christianity is NOT one of them. A sense of the infinite may be. The sting of death, which you mention above, is certainly. THe Holy Trinity, certainly not.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:56 AM

Amos it sure seems that the 'seperation of Church and State' still has a long long way to go before it's reality! Aren't the words 'One nation under God' still inscribed on your currency, part of your Oath of Allegience? (Pardon me if my ignorance is showing!) And isn't the Church of England still headed by the Queen herself? Hmmmmmmmm

I agree - non-religious poetry would have been a less inflammatory choice. Maybe such a volume could be compiled and humbly presented to the Presidential speech-makers!

In the meantime, what's all this doing on a thread about sacrifices to Moloch? Think I'll mosey off now to greener pastures ... might be hard to find them under that 6 ft of snow though!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM

Daylia:

If it was not clear the first time, I am not threatened one whit by Christianity. I was raised as a Catholic and know my bible and find most of the Christians I'm personally aquainted with to be perfectly acceptable human beings.

And no, I do not need to "work on myself" to increase my self-esteem in order to not feel threatened by Christianity. I am well-versed in comparative religion (yes, I find them all interesting as well and have done a fair amount of research and writing on religious history) and my self-esteem is actually quite healthy.

What I DO feel threatened by is the very opposite of what you are suggesting: that somehow the president should be able to make narrow-minded, highly-personal and divisive religious comments at a time when his priority (as a world leader called upon to offer words of condolence and comfort) should be inclusion, and tolerance. This is not about "freedom of speech" or even freedom of religion. By making it clear he considers himself the leader of a Christian nation, Mr. Bush creates an atmosphere in which religion, and religious beliefs, are part of the public theatre. When, again, government cannot work, nor can democracy prevail, unless a state's ruling body remains secularly detached from such matters. That's why we have a clear separation of church and state. The effort to create a pervasive atmosphere of Christian beliefs and the so-called "family values" associated with them makes people such as myself (not to mention other non-Christians) vulnerable to persecution on the grounds of religious belief. Don't believe me? Look up what happened to the military pagans who sought to exercise their "freedom of speech" at Fort Hood.

By the way, statistics show that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM

"This is not about "freedom of speech" or even freedom of religion." Peg, I mean no offence, but that is exactly what I was talking about.

"That's why we have a clear separation of church and state." You do?   I don't see any evidence that this is much more than wishful thinking.

"By making it clear he considers himself the leader of a Christian nation, Mr. Bush creates an atmosphere in which religion, and religious beliefs, are part of the public theatre."

Religion is very much a part of the 'public theatre', as it always has been throughout human history. And according to these statistics Mr. Bush is indeed the leader of a 'Christian nation'!

According to stats from the 2002 census at the above link -

86.8% of Americans view themselves as 'religious'.

70% of Americans think it is 'extremely important' that their President be 'strongly religious'.

82% of Americans identified themselves as Christian in 2002, compared with 89% in 1949.

50% of Americans are very uncomfortable when presidential candidates express how religious they are. (aside - so how can 70% of you want a 'strongly religious' President, then? Pretty confusing!)

Anyway, that sounds like Bush leads quite the 'Christian' nation to me, whether the words are popular or not. And truthfully, I have noticed that if there's one kind of Christian more 'dangerous' to the religious freedom of their neighbours than the 'fundamentalist' kind, it's the disgruntled 'ex-Christian' types! That's why I don't affiliate myself with any particular group.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:34 PM

How easily deceived you folks are. GWBush isn't a Christian. Never has been. The official version is that he had his 'irresponsible years', then he was 'saved' by no less than Billy Graham during a stroll by the ocean. Hogwash. If you look at what he DOES and not what he says, he's no Christian. In everything he says, he is directing you 180 degrees away from what he really means. Always.

I don't especially mind GW putting on the act, though, because the Constititution talks about our rights being 'God-given'. The framers did that so no human could take them away, as Bush/Clinton want to do. They would actually have to defy God in order to strike down our Constitution, and that SHOULD be a bit too much for the American public to bear. So let GW rave on about his religiousness...it'll just make it harder for him to suspend our 'God-given' rights when he tries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:09 PM

Well, at least God doesn't think he's George Bush...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:44 PM

By your arguments, o nameless GUEST, the vast majority of those calling themselves Christian are not. How many people do you know who will literally turn the other cheek?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:10 PM

Daylia;
if you're seeking to offer back-handed insults, the particular ones you've chosen ain't gonna work on me. I am not a "disgruntled ex-Christian type". I am not "dangerous" to the cause of religious freedom and in fact work every day of my life to help further it and very publicly too, I might add. Your oh-so-superior refusal to affiliate yourself with any particular group is noted. We call that sort of remark "passive-aggressive" or "wishy-washy" where I come from, or, at least, we wouldn't seek to judge others' religious views when we can't seem to commit to one ourselves. When you're willing to put yourself on the line for your beliefs get back to me.


The statistics you cite seem manipulated at best, fraudulent at worst. There is simply no way in hell (you'll pardon the expression) that 82% of Americans are Christians...makes you wonder just who those pollsters were asking! Kind of like all these polls these days that say a vast majority of "Americans" are in favor of going to war with Iraq! They sure as heck have not asked me or any of my friends, co-workers or colleagues...

I live in Boston, a fairly international city, and am well aware that Christianity does NOT represent anything approaching an 82% majority. Perhaps those pollsters were only asking people in Arkansas? Polls are only as effective as their representative samples and the questions they're asking, not to mention the processing of their data...I don't tend to trust them. It offends me that polls are used to gauge public opinion--because most polls are biased, and many people seem to think they need to be part of some majority. Look around enough and you'll find some poll to refute every other poll. I don't think they're an effective way of measuring much of anything, from voter preferences to religous preferences. You yourself have pointed out the discrepancy between people who want a religious president and yet are uncomfortable with his expression of such a sentiment. That right there should tell you such polls contain spurious information. But then, I tend to think polls are for the gullible and most people don't read them very closely.

As for the separation of church and state, it's right there in our Constitution. And it's been upheld by the Supreme Court a number of times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:39 PM

Peg...
Bush and Ashcroft killed separation of chuch and state with faith-based initiatives. 501C3...isn't that the clause that hands out federal money to churches if they meet certain federal criteria? Churches are now tied to the government if they take the money, and most of them are taking it. A shrewd plan for the takeover of religion by the government.

Lurker...
That 'turn the other cheek' thing...the fire-breathing Christians who encircle me say that only applies to your 'brethren'. You only turn the other cheek to like-thinking believers...give them a pass when the spirit of Jesus has momentarily abandoned them. They say you HAVE to think that way, otherwise your ministry would not survive. Jesus meant for his message to be spread, so it wouldn't make any sense to passively turn your cheek until all memory of you and your religion is relegated to the dustbin of history. No, the folks around here think you should pray with a Bible in one hand and a gun in the other, and woe unto any non-brethren who smites your cheek. This is David Koresh country...Davidians and all that. They were a mite extreme, but their neighbors aren't far behind them. And although I'm not a Christian myself, I feel a LOT safer being surrounded by these 'gun nuts' and 'right wing wackos'. If it came to a ground-assault, the U.N. forces would have to fight their way through a lot of irate and heavily-armed believers before they got to me, and I'd end up fighting right there beside them because we DO share a common belief in the Constitution. Anyway, there ARE alternative ways of interpretting that 'turn the other cheek' maxim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:24 AM

501 (c) 3 is a section of the Federal Tax Code regarding non-profit organizations.

I don't think it has anyhting to do with qualifying for handouts.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:36 AM

Well, I spoke prematurely. I haven't researched it, but I know a BUNCH of churches around here are railing against 501 (c) 3 and faith-based initiatives as governmental interference. I'll put that on my list of things to study. You're right...I have heard it mentioned in the tax code context. But the last lecture I received on it had to do with the Feds now being able to force churches who take federal money to hire employees of other faiths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 01:19 AM

I don't think the expression "turn the other cheek" was necessarily intended by Jesus to have been taken literally. The way I have heard it explained by wiser souls than myself is:

You turn the other cheek in this fashion...by sending out the opposite thought-form. That is...if a person is sending you hate, you don't react with hate in return, you react with love. If a person is sending greed, you don't buy into that psychology, you buy into generosity. If a person is into discouragement, you don't buy into that either...you encourage.

This does not necessarily mean that you fail to defend yourself when someone physically attacks you. Not in the least.

It means you meet unhealthy psychology with healthy psychology. Most of the things Jesus said contained deeper levels of meaning than the bare literal interpretation, in my opinion. This is also the case in virtually all holy books and sacred texts in all of the major religions.

Many religious passages advise people to "pray constantly". That's not a literal statement either, but it means to maintain a constantly constructive frame of mind in every way possible...which again, is to think in a healthy fashion.

It was much easier for me to do that in Trinidad than it is here. Much easier. It's damned hard to do it here.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:57 AM

Wow Peg, me thinks thou dost protest too much!

As to feeling 'superior' to you or anyone else, sorry I don't buy it. Just because I have different opinions, that doesn't make them superior or inferior. Just different - and apt to ruffle some feathers I guess. Sorry.

As to being 'wishy-washy', although I've studied many traditions there's just none big enough to hold me it seems. Every tradition has it's 'little box' of limited beliefs members are expected to accept and live by, and I tend to feel claustrophobic.

And all religions tend to be somewhat intolerant toward their neighbours, some worse than others. I can't stand that either. That's why I took exception to your slamming your President for using a quote from Isaiah, even though I've no use for GWBush. And I have found that disgruntled 'ex-Christian' types tend to have the most intolerant, angry and hate-filled attitudes toward any religious group, particularly Christian groups. I didn't intend it as a personal slight, just an general observation - but hey, if the shoe fits, wear it my dear!

Those statistics are from your government's 2002 census, from Bill Moyer's website, someone whose opinions I've always respected since I encountered them studying Joseph Campbell's exceptional work. If I didn't think they were credible, I wouldn't have bothered posting them.
Believe them or not, as you choose. They do indicate without a doubt that your President leads a VERY 'Christian' nation (even though Jesus Himself would probably be appalled at the association). And a nation who wants him to be 'strongly religious', yet feels 'very uncomfortable' if he expresses that religiousity. No wonder the guy can't get anything right - you people just don't know WHAT you want it seems.

And regarding the 'seperation of Church and State', it looks very nice on paper. It's a great way to delude and distract your best thinkers too. But it's just not reality. Check out your money, your oath of allegiance. "IN GOD WE TRUST". Plain and simple. Masonic emblems all over your money! Wake up and smell the coffee - or not. Really doesn't matter too much in the long run I guess. We all pay the piper.

Peace -   daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:16 AM

PS - "we all pay the piper" - I guess that's acceptable as long as the piper isn't a 40-ft high stone owl!   ;-)

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:03 AM

daylia:

I don't see much point in debating this with you any further. You are lumping all Americans into the same category (as in "you people don't know what you want"--this smacks of bigotry to me) and seem to think I personally have some control over the design of our paper currency...If I used your logic (if it can be called that) I'd be making some assumptions about the LOONS that appear on Canadian coins...

The shoe doesn't fit. Your own intolerance and ignorance is showing much more colorfully than mine. The fact that you can't even make sense of the indiscrepancy over the polling information (calling Dubya "confused" when actually it is the poll data that is obviously flawed) and are blaming it on the American populace not knowing what "we" want (as if we all want the same thing??) tells me you haven't put a whole lot of thought into these condescending "opinions" of yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM

Here's a list of American statesmen who were/are Freemasons. (BTW I've seen the Bushes on similiar lists recently but I didn't bookmark the pages...)

"What U.S. Presidents have been Freemasons?
George Washington, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, James Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, James Garfield, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Warren G. Harding, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Lyndon B. Johnson, Gerald Ford

"Harry S. Truman was also Grand Master of his home state, Missouri. Lyndon Johnson was an Entered Apprentice but never progressed beyond that degree. Ronald Reagan is not a craft Mason. He was made an honorary 33rd degree Mason by the Southern Jurisdiction of the AASR and an honorary member of the Imperial Council of the Shrine .... Bill Clinton is not a Mason, though he was involved in DeMolay for a time. Many other leaders in government have been Masons. 'They have included fourteen Presidents and eighteen Vice Presidents of the United States; a majority of the Justices of the United States Supreme Court, of the Governors of States, of the members of the Senate, and a large percentage of the Congressmen. Five Chief Justices of the United States were Masons and two were Grand Masons. The five were Oliver Ellsworth, John Marshall, William Howard Taft, Frederick M. Vinson, and Earl Warren (also Grand Master of Masons in California.' --- Henry C. Clausen --(Source: "History of Freemasonry)."

And here's some information about the Masonic (occult?) symbols on American currency.

I'm presenting this ONLY as food for thought, not as the bonafide truth by any means. But I do find it very intriguing, even though I have no direct experience with them and therefore cannot have complete trust in these sources. My hunch? That it's correct! ( Masonic design and influence is all over Canadian history as well.)

And I HAVE learned to trust my hunches! Of course, that doesn't mean anyone else should - you don't know me at all! Happy browsing anyway to all who care to ...

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:31 AM

Sorry I continue to ruffle your feathers, Peg. May your next President be an atheist (not too likely!). And may your illusions not hurt you too badly when they collapse.

BTW I kinda like the loons on Canadian 'loonies' - they are beautiful, hardy and amazing birds indeed. Now if the queen's profile could just disappear ... or maybe the whole idea of 'money' in the first place ...
fat chance of that! He he he!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:38 PM

what "illusions" do I hold exactly, daylia? How is it you are so wise about others' beliefs when you aren't even clear on what your own are?

The Masonic Order, as it practices today, is no longer affiliated with the occult in any way. Not a "hunch" but fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:47 PM

Illusion #1 - "The Masonic Order, as it practices today, is no longer affiliated with the occult in any way. Not a "hunch" but fact." Please check out the information at the site I posted above, and many of the others you will find if you do a search on "Freemasonry". I do know that your statement is incorrect, based on my own experiences with the Order.

Illusion #2 - "How is it you are so wise about others' beliefs when you aren't even clear on what your own are? It's always unwise to presume, (and I can be just as foolish as anyone else in this regard!) I also demonstrated intolerance of the intolerance between religious groups in my postings.. AARRGGGHHHH! But I will say here that I don't bother with 'beliefs' much. I prefer truth.

Illusion #3 - That's why we have a clear separation of church and state. When 'religious' and 'occult' words and symbols disappear from your Constitution, Oath of Allegience, currency etc. then perhaps we will truly know the seperation of church and state. (I'm not holding my breath).

Illusion #4 - "(calling Dubya "confused" when actually it is the poll data that is obviously flawed)." I did not call 'Dubya' confused. I meant that it was confusing to ME (I don't speak for 'Dubya') that 50% of Americans claim to be 'extremely uncomfortable' with their Presidential candidates expressing their religiousity, while 70% of Americans claim to want a 'strongly religious' President. I found myself wondering what IS it that Americans DO want? Do they even know? Pardon my on-line wondering! Seems to me that means 20% of Americans want a 'strongly religious President' who does not make that aspect of himself public knowledge during his campaign. How then would anyone know if he/she (boy THAT would be nice!) was religious? Hmmmm?

These statistics are not from a "poll" either, but from the US census of 2002. I always thought that a census is more objective and reliable than a 'poll', which is why I considered the statistics credible at all. Believe what you will - that's what your gov't is telling you - and the rest of the world - about yourselves.

You did not take the time to check out the link I posted perhaps?

Anyway I meant no offence to you or anyone else Peg. I don't know you at all, so I could only offer what I consider to be 'illusions' from your postings here. And I do apologize for assuming you were of the disgruntled ex-Christian type. It was your words "Bush is a fundamentalist Christian who..." and "I was mortally offended when he pulled the religion card today while speaking about those who died on the Columbia space shuttle. How fucking tasteless." that led me to that assumption.

Oh yes, and "I am not threatened one whit by Christianity." followed a few lines down by "The effort to create a pervasive atmosphere of Christian beliefs and the so-called "family values" associated with them makes people such as myself (not to mention other non-Christians) vulnerable to persecution ..." Sounded 'disgruntled' to me. Please pardon my presumption.

And again, how can there not be a 'pervasive atmosphere of Christian beliefs' in a country where 82% of the population claims those very beliefs, according to your own nation-wide (I presume) census?? Hmmm??

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:47 PM

Illusion #1 - "The Masonic Order, as it practices today, is no longer affiliated with the occult in any way. Not a "hunch" but fact." Please check out the information at the site I posted above, and many of the others you will find if you do a search on "Freemasonry". I do know that your statement is incorrect, based on my own experiences with the Order.
--well, a member of my coven is also now the leader of the local Masonic order and try though he might he will never turn it into a magical order. It's simply not what they do anymore. I don't know what you mean when you seem to be saying they ARE an occult order. In my experience they left that behind decades ago. Feel free to offer some explanation.


Illusion #2 - "How is it you are so wise about others' beliefs when you aren't even clear on what your own are? It's always unwise to presume, (and I can be just as foolish as anyone else in this regard!) I also demonstrated intolerance of the intolerance between religious groups in my postings.. AARRGGGHHHH! But I will say here that I don't bother with 'beliefs' much. I prefer truth.
--I wouldn't call that an illusion; merely an opinion. Most people who hold "beliefs" consider them truth. So now you're just playing semantics (what's new, though).


Illusion #3 - That's why we have a clear separation of church and state. When 'religious' and 'occult' words and symbols disappear from your Constitution, Oath of Allegience, currency etc. then perhaps we will truly know the seperation of church and state. (I'm not holding my breath).
--first off could you try to at least spell separation correctly? And I have never heard it referred to as an OATH of allegiance. We always called it the PLEDGE of allegiance in school, and most school children know it as that memorized bit of dreck you say in front of the flag every morning. Kids who object to the "under God" part are now legally allowed not to take part...chalk one up for the Constitution!
What do occult symbols on our currency have to do with separation of church and state? I do not equate the occult with the Christian church. Most people do not even equate the occult or its symbology with religion in any way. So I don't get what you're on about here.

Illusion #4 - "(calling Dubya "confused" when actually it is the poll data that is obviously flawed)." I did not call 'Dubya' confused.
--you did say "no wonder the guy can't get anything right"--so perhaps I mispoke. The parallel is still the same: calling Dubya stupid based on the fact that this polls numbers donlt add up is ignoring the fact that the POLL is flawed.

I meant that it was confusing to ME (I don't speak for 'Dubya') that 50% of Americans claim to be 'extremely uncomfortable' with their Presidential candidates expressing their religiousity, while 70% of Americans claim to want a 'strongly religious' President. I found myself wondering what IS it that Americans DO want? Do they even know? Pardon my on-line wondering!
--this isn't wondering, it's over-generalizing to an extreme. We are an enormous and diverse nation; why would anyone assume that all Americans want the same thing? This makes no sense.

Seems to me that means 20% of Americans want a 'strongly religious President' who does not make that aspect of himself public knowledge during his campaign. How then would anyone know if he/she (boy THAT would be nice!) was religious? Hmmmm?
--you have proved my point. The poll itself is nonsensical. Yet YOU were the one who offered it as proof of something or other. You need to put some thought into this stuff.



These statistics are not from a "poll" either, but from the US census of 2002. I always thought that a census is more objective and reliable than a 'poll', which is why I considered the statistics credible at all. Believe what you will - that's what your gov't is telling you - and the rest of the world - about yourselves.
--last time I checked the U.S. Census Bureau made all sorts of mistakes. They are in fact considered one of the most incompetent of our government bureaus. Why should a poll they came up with be any different?

You did not take the time to check out the link I posted perhaps?
--I don't need to. I have already stated why I think those statistics from that poll don't merit scrutiny.

Anyway I meant no offence to you or anyone else Peg.
--yes, clearly you did. But I don't care either way.

I don't know you at all, so I could only offer what I consider to be 'illusions' from your postings here. And I do apologize for assuming you were of the disgruntled ex-Christian type. It was your words "Bush is a fundamentalist Christian who..." and "I was mortally offended when he pulled the religion card today while speaking about those who died on the Columbia space shuttle. How fucking tasteless." that led me to that assumption.
--yeah, well, all I knowof you is from your postings. I find them passive-aggressive and lacking in forethought.


Oh yes, and "I am not threatened one whit by Christianity." followed a few lines down by "The effort to create a pervasive atmosphere of Christian beliefs and the so-called "family values" associated with them makes people such as myself (not to mention other non-Christians) vulnerable to persecution ..." Sounded 'disgruntled' to me. Please pardon my presumption.
--if you actually were able to comprehend what I wrote, you'd understand that there is no contradiction there and no disgruntlement. It's the atmosphere created by government, not Christians themselves, that creates the opportunities for persecution...

And again, how can there not be a 'pervasive atmosphere of Christian beliefs' in a country where 82% of the population claims those very beliefs, according to your own nation-wide (I presume) census?? Hmmm??
--as I said (here we go a THIRD time) I find that poll's figures to be faulty and inaccurate. I live here. Maybe I have a better sense of how things are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Nemesis
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM

Well, Guest, certainly succeeded in getting a response out of people .. I scrolled to the bottom of the Molloch page and it's a band's website, isn't it?

Perhaps, if they had just have called themselves Bollocks, we'd have cottoned on quicker

BTW: I'm not spending anymore time on this thread .. 15 minutes is plenty out of a lifetime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:26 PM

Peg there's a big difference between beliefs and truth, but I'm sure you're aware of that already. And I would explain to you how I know that the Order of Freemasons continue to practice the occult sciences they were founded on, but if you can't 'believe' even the results of your government's census why should you 'believe' anything I have to say? I'm obviously wasting my time. Hille's right - 15 minutes is enough!

I'm sure your Christian neighbours will continue to show you exactly the same tolerance and respect that you show them - multiplied many times over. (Those are the 'laws of karma' - again as I'm sure you already know.) Best wishes to you and your coven.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:47 PM

The quibbling about whether or not Freemasons are occult or not fails to take one pretty important factor into account: The Freemasons are divided into a large number of Rites and a vast array of lodges. Some are undoubtedly true to the occult roots of Masonry, some to the political, some to both and some to neither.

As to the poll, what fraction called themselves atheists? If that number is small or absent, that shows the problem in the census. Most people are neither practicing nor strongly believing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:35 AM

Daylia; I don't "believe" the poll results of "my own government" because THE POLL IS FLAWED. How bull-headed must you be about this? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that this poll is ONE source of information that may well be inaccurate? You say you are interested in "truth." You can't get "truth" from looking at only one source, and a clearly-flawed one at that. Your refusal to explain your "knowledge" of the Masons because you think I won't "believe" you because I know a faulty poll when I see one is kind of defeatist isn't it? And convenient.

I am quite tolerant of open-minded, compassionate Christians. Your implication that I will "get what's coming to me" karmically is based on your belief that I am intolerant of all Christians. I'm not, and I already said that once. Your tendency to paint all things in shades of black and white is not going to get you very far.

You have also said more than once you're done posting to this thread but you keep lobbing those parting shots.

Lurker; I'd agree that the Masons do have many different permutations and it is possible some of them maintain more of the original order's occult rites than others. But the vast majority of them are not too far removed from the Elks or the Moose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM

Exactly how many lodges have you been part of, that you can make that claim? And have you actually looked at the poll, or are you just assuming that it's flawed because the U.S. government made it? Honestly, just look at the facts instead of spouting off random generalizations and ad hominem attacks, both of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:47 AM

The influences of the Freemasons ARE all around us.

Washington DC was built on a pentagram design, and construction within the district is tightly controlled. Some say it was built to receive Lucifer or Satan or Moloch or whoever upon Judgement Day or Super Bowl Sunday or something like that. And numerology is a big deal in the numbering of the streets and burial sites in the town.

We have the 'all-seeing eye' on the back of our dollar bill.

The 'all seeing eye' is part of the new DARPA Pentagon computer database...'all information on every American citizen gathered together in one place...to fight terrorism'

The CBS television logo is an eye

The NBC television logo is a peacock...bird with eyes on the ends of it's feathers

Daley Plaza...in Dallas, where Kennedy was shot, is in the shape of a pyramid with no capstone...like the one on the back of the dollar. And where the capstone should be is the area under the overpass where the fatal shot almost certainly came from. The place where Dan Rather was reporting from. Some say he was placed there as an 'irrefutible witness' in case anyone should hear or see the shooter. If that happened, a trained, professional observer...a reporter...could swear HE never heard or saw anything. And subsequently, after the shooting, Rather rises to be the voice behind the CBS 'eye'. I think it was Jim Lehrer in the Texas School Book Depository that day, too...the place where Oswald was supposed to have shot from. Again, a reporter who could have sworn he saw certain things, if called upon to do so.

So the Masons and Illuminati have a BIG symbolic, if not practical, impact on American life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:26 PM

Forum lurker, I'd be VERY interested in checking out some credible sources of information about Freemasonry. If you have any, please post them! It's very hard to find one that doesn't just reek of paranoia and religious intolerance. The example I posted above was the best I could find yesterday, and it still looked a little 'iffy'. Thanks!

And GUEST, if you're who I think you are, for once I agree with you! (about the Masons, anyway). HURRAH!!

Peg would you please PM me with your comments in the future?

Thanks - daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 12:49 PM

Ukranian Masons

Some parts of the world believe the Masons to be dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:09 PM

Thanks, GUEST! What a coincidence that my experiences with the Order involved a Ukranian! And those experiences were both highly dangerous and terrifying indeed. If I'd have known what was in store for me, as a woman associated with such an Order (or person) I'd have steered WAY clear. As it was, I'm just grateful to still be around. I'm still trying to understand those experiences, but only in my braver moments!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 01:43 PM

Some parts of the world believe in vampires & werewolves, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:02 PM

Americans make lots of money on werewolves and vampires too! Perhaps it's the same with the Masons. They've got a few centuries of experience in such matters ... (designing and controlling money I mean).


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

how many Masons do you suppose have much experience designing & controlling money? I mean, really? They're not a small, select group you know. THere are lots & lots of them, all over the place, and most of them are electricians and plumbers and insurance salesmen, etc. Even up at the elevated degrees. My grandfather was a 32nd degree mason and he was a frickin' millwright. americans haven't made a dime out of vampires and werewolves; many have made money out of popular delight in scary stuff though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:18 PM

Check out the links above Buck, if you're interested. My grandfather belonged to a Lodge in Winnipeg, and he was just a 'regular guy' too. A decorated veteran of WW1, and a linotype operator for the Winnipeg Press.

Like Forum Lurker said, there are many different Rites and Orders and Lodges within Freemasonry, with different agendas and practices. Apparently, not all are into the occult or political/economic manipulation, but some certainly are. And certainly the group I found myself caught up with were! (Not the same one as my grandfather's!)

If they are not into designing and controlling money, then why are their symbols and slogans still plastered all over American currency and the American constitution, for just one example? That evidence is right in your wallet every day of your life!

And why all the bally-hoo about 300 Masons in the highest positions of gov't and business in the Ukraine, according to 'The Pravda' at GUEST's link? There's likely to be at least SOME fire behind all that smoke!

Anyway, I really don't know all the facts, and I am interested in finding credible information about it.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:30 PM

Sorry Buck, I was assuming you are an American. If you're not, then 'that evidence' is certainly NOT in your wallet every day of your life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:37 PM

First, that Pravda link did not unequivocally claim that the "Order of St. Stanislaus" or whatever it was is in fact a Masonic organization. Indeed, it went so far as to say "even if it isn't its charter is so much like the masons...." Second, the article didn't claim these guys were doing anything wrong; only that a whole buncha folks were getting their knickers knotted about the fact that they belonged to a Masonic-like organization. Third, I'm well aware of the multiplicity of rites & chapters and so on of Freemasonry. The Shriners, for example, ooh, what a badass bunch they are, providing free medical care to kids. Fourth, the Masons have been getting flak for about 300 years, partly as a result of their claimed (sometimes by them, sometimes by others) association with the Knights Templar, (q.v.) You can search the web and find all KINDS of weird-ass stuff about the Masons - do a google on "baphomet" and you'll end up crawling under the bed. The point is, none of this bullshit has ever been backed up; books have been written, sure, but books have been written about other "bad" groups too (see "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion") and there are folks like you who are willing to lend it credulity simply because you think there must be SOMETHING to it or else why are all these peopl making so much noise about it? The Masons are a harmless, service oriented fraternal order, unaffiliated with any conspiracies to rule the world, believe me. I'd be delighted to see any "credible" (ooh, there's that nasty word again), empirical evidence to the contrary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:07 PM

Buck check out the site I posted above about the symbols and slogans on your money (if you're really interested, and not just trying to argue). I think it's pretty credible, and I've come across that information in many volumes/sites about ancient occult symbols and geometry. I'll try to find the 'mathematics' site I originally found the information on last fall, and post it here if anyone's interested. It was the most 'neutral' information I'd found to date.

If it weren't for direct personal experience with the occult practices of ONE (and only one) of these Orders, I wouldn't waste my time trying to sort out any of the allegations - in fact I wouldn't have the slightest interest in Freemasonry at all. But it happened. Hence my interest. And believe me, it had nothing to do with the Shriners!

And I'm not trying to 'lend credibility' to anything! I'm just looking for the truth. So I hafta start somewhere!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:08 PM

I heard the NASA memorial today was pretty occult, as far as numerology and such. I can't watch that garbage...knowing the terrorists are up there on stage setting themselves up as our saviors. But I heard one speaker talked about the astronauts being 'sacrificed', and GW or one of them talked about there being only 'one religion'. GW ran for Prez as a 'communitarian', by the way, which in old dictionaries is the definition of communist. And Gorbachev said in '87 the Soviet Union would only APPEAR to disband. And the President of China calls the Fortune 500 'the supreme flower of communism'. Man...this religo/economic consolidation and cleansing coming up is gonna be a bitch. I mean, when the 'conservative Christian' candidate TELLS the Christians who voted for him that he's a communist, that doesn't speak well for America's ability to think its way out of bad situations.

Interesting thing:
shuttle blew up 9:00AM eastern
WTC 9:00AM eastern
Murrah bldg. in OK city 9:00AM eastern

Don't some claim the 666 mark of the beast stuff has been skewed over the years...that it should be 999? And the numbers 1, 2, 3 show up a lot too in Illuminati occultism, don't they? Don't the Europeans date-stamp with the day first, month second? Then the shuttle was blown up on 01-02-03. God I hate the people doing this stuff, whichever demons they worship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:28 PM

GUEST, 'hate' is not a wise choice if you value your life and health. At the risk of boring you with something you've heard before, I've always liked this saying - "Hate does more damage to the vessel in which it's stored than the object upon which it's poured".

Whatever is going on, the tyrants and murderers always fail in the end. Takes time, and sometimes it looks hopeless, but history shows that they do all eventually reap what they sow. As everyone does. That's why I try to avoid hating anyone, no matter how 'hateable' they are!

The answers will come when the time is right. As long as people keep seeking them. And choose to act upon them. I hope!!

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:31 PM

daylia - don't get me wrong, I never said there weren't Masonic connections to things like the symbology, etc. It is indeed true that a great many of the "Founding Fathers" were Freemasons, as have been many, many other folks in politics, here and abroad. My point is simply, "so what?" Their membership in a fraternal organization doesn't prove - or even imply - anything. If you could come up with the name of this "order" you had a bad experience with, it might help. The Masons don't use the word much, BTW. They have "Rites" and Chapters, etc. The "Order" terminology is very much a carryover of the medieval/Crusader/Church days, when unemployed knights (after the Crusades pooped out and there was no more loot to be had) formed "Orders" and pretended they were like Arthur's knights (they weren't, not even close; even Malory's depiction of Arthur's "knights" wasn't close to any probable reality). They got rich, the church got mad and decided it needed their money so trumped up all sorts of charges of Satanism and demonism (they musta had a GUEST), and tried them and confiscated their goods. The last Grand Master of the Knights Templar was burned in the 14th century I think. Modern Masons have been connected with these guys (again by the RCC) in order to justify banning the organizations as diluting loyalty to church & pope. I'm doubtful that the "order" you had a run-in with was affiliated with the AF&AM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:41 PM

Nah...some things MUST be hated. Burning babies must be hated. Shedding false tears over 7 astronauts while you plot to kill hundreds of thousands with nuclear weapons must be hated. Can't love that stuff and you can't be neutral on it. Hate has it's place but needs to be used carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:53 PM

Well I certainly don't 'love' stuff like that, and I ain't 'neutral' on it either. But I can work to end it without making myself sick with hate. I do know what that's like! Maybe it's different with you though.
Thoughts and emotions are very much tied to biology, and we're all different that way I guess.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Peg
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:00 PM

Daylia;
what comments am I supposed to PM to you? I am not interested in a private conversation with you, believe me.
Are you saying you don't want me to post to this thread any more? Well, that is not your decision to make. If you're going to dish it out you're going to have to learn to take it, I'm afraid.

This thread, BTW, is starting to sound like one of those satanic ritual abuse support groups...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM

Now THAT'S an idea. I post on various forums....do you know of a satanic ritual abuse support group online? Really. I'd like to show them some info.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:37 PM

Maybe it's Satan himself who needs the 'ritual abuse support group'! Who knows, with the Bohemians and the Freemasons and the Dubya's et al never givin him a moment's peace ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 11:54 PM

Geeze, what gives ???-- I mean, it isn't even October and we've got the Dance of the Inner Bitches screaming through the aether like Walpurgisnacht! Take care ya don't go shaking down any of that firmament, now, ladies. Maybe some hot tea on the break would help? Hot water bottle? Massage?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 03 - 01:06 PM

...Now, the truth be told, I've been around so long that I also knew Jimmy Doolittle. (Light laughter.) I had several opportunities to visit with him. My recollection is it was out at Bohemian Grove, where he would attend periodically, and we'd pass and visit. He was always so interested. So I do thank you for this fine award which bears his distinguished name.

Like the Hudson Institute, General Doolittle helped to change the world. Indeed, many of the principles that we recognize as so important in the 21st century -- speed, jointness, flexibility, transformation, precision -- were in a sense pioneered by Jimmy Doolittle....

Rumfeld's admission of Bohemian Grove attendance

(These monsters are going to acclimate you to their nightmare in this manner. This is a Dept of Defense link, folks)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,LadyJean
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:09 AM

I don't know if they still do it, but for many years, the University of Chicago's Blackfriars sacrificed a watermelon on Walpurgis night. The abbot or abbess would plunge a knife into the unfortunate mellon, after which, the victim would be eaten.
Blackfriars is a highly subversive organization, they perform musicals. Milton Friedman used to be one of their favorite targets for satire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:48 AM

These people sacrifice humans. Have for thousands of years.

Lately, ordinary people have begun 'waking up' to the true nature of the ruling elite. This is scaring the elite, and they are having to make small confessions. Like Rumsfeld admitting to membership at Bohemian Grove. That is a HUGE admission, but it is buried in a DoD web page. The ruling elite is panicking. Resistance to tyranny is growing around the world. The Iraqis are getting a big dose of reality therapy right now, and the example is not being lost on the rest of the world.

Memes

Ideas are catching on...resistance is growing. This is a great time to be alive because we are going to throw these parasites off once and for all. We have total knowledge now. The people who have perverted humanity are doomed:

Tip of the Iceberg

For awarding re-building contracts to Halliburton with no competing bids, the Bush Administration should be shut down. Just that one action should disqualify them from positions of leadership And they STILL have to answer for Sept 11. Their fall is going to be wonderful, and the Clintons and all the other parasites will be brought down with them. So nice. These scum have just about sacrificed their last child.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Gervase
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:09 PM

I mean, 'care in the community' sounded like a good idea at the time, but I had no idea that it meant that truly insane people would be allowed unfettered access to the internet. Surely there's something that can be done?
If there is a global conspiracy, why don't they sacrifice loons like 'Guest' above? (Probably for the same reason that aliens always abduct and anally probe some thick septic from Shitsville USA rather than landing on the Mall, I suppose) AOL has a heck of a lot to answer for...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:26 PM

You should try to control your fear, Gervase, rather than let it control you. The internet is the Jeffersonian dream bearing fruit. The US govt is trying to become more and more secretive at the moment in history when that is becoming less and less possible. The internet allowed the world to see the massacre in Tienamen Square, and that set the cause of tyrannical globalism back a crucial ten years. Because of laptop computers beaming those pictures, Clinton could never get Most Favored Nation trade status for the communist Chinese. If he had, the US would be dead by now. But we got a breather, and the Organized Criminals overstepped on Sept 11. Make use of this window of opportunity before it closes. The people in charge practice human sacrifice. If they get total control...


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:42 PM

Odd, somehow I remember seeing Tienamen Square on television. Seems to me that neither laptops nor good PC video were widely available in 1989. BTW DG, China has had "most favored nation" trading status since 1980, when it was extended to them by President Carter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:04 PM

MFN was issued year by year, because of human rights abuses. Bush # 2 made it permanent. One of his first presidential acts as a 'conservative' was to grant permanent MFN status to the ChiComs. Bush is not a conservative, just as he is not a Christian. He belongs to a club that practices human sacrifice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 May 03 - 03:35 AM

Control my fear?
Dear 'Guest', it's my laughter I'm trying to control. Seriously, though, you really should seek medical attention. Bush is certainly an arsehole, but human sacrifice? Oy veh!!!!!

(Have you seen the small green eyes hidden on your Windows login-screen, by the way. They're looking at your every move and reporting back to Zog. They really are, you know!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:54 PM

BOHEMIAN GROVE...

"...The President said that Mr. Kozlov would have a good time in the United States and that everybody would be ready to talk freely to him. In this connection he expressed satisfaction that Mr. Kozlov would visit Bohemian Grove in California, which is located in beautiful surroundings./10/..."

US State Dept Document

There was some discussion of Bohemian Grove on this thread, so I'll add this here. The linked document shows that Kruschev's right-hand man visited Bohemian Grove at the height of the Cold War. The international banking elite created communism as a foe of capitalism. You can't sell arms and foment wars without enemies, so communism was created as an enemy. Now 'terrorism' is the enemy of the day.

There are no enemies but those the bankers create. And Bohemian Grove is one of the places where they calmly discuss their atrocities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: JennyO
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:07 PM

Oh no - not this old thread again!

He's ba-aaaaaack........


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Moloch
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:41 PM

Aw, man, not this crap again!

Listen, I don't deal with such people as bankers and CEOs and politicians. Not now, not ever. Got it? Now drop it!

I have certain standards to maintain, after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 08:31 PM

The Franklin Coverup

If you read only one non-fiction book this year, make it this one. This former state senator from Nebraska had the goods on the Bushes and Hunter Thompson and others connected with Bohemian Grove. Actual testimony from cases, etc. Amazing. Project Monarch being used by the CIA to use kids as cocaine mules. Hunter Thompson blowing the head off one kid and making the other engage in necrophilia...at Bohemian Grove. Non-partisan, too, as Robert Byrd (D-WV) is revealed to be the chief satanist in the US govt. This is absolutely the most disturbing book I've ever read. John DeCamp evacuated 3000+ kids from Viet Nam while he was there, then he returned to the US to serve in politics. He sounds like one of the few people I'd trust my life to just on the strength of his writings...an absolutely decent human being who stumbled across the most decadent behavior imaginable...being carried out by the leaders of the US. A stunning book. Buy it, read it, pass it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 11:14 AM

Look at THIS!


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:45 PM

oh, it's MUCH worse than you think!>/a>

(BTW-thanks, Moloch--glad you could stop by and clear that up...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:51 PM

trying again

oh, it's MUCH worse than you think!

(BTW-thanks, Moloch--glad you could stop by and clear that up...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 02:39 PM

GUEST, maybe you've got this confused with "Malarch", the Father of all "Malarchey"?

;>) I'm just trying to be funny, so don't get mad okay? I've felt your angry energy before, reading your posts -- it's pretty deep and very cold. Think whatever you will about whatever you want of course!

Be well --- daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 11:04 PM

Far, far worse than you think. Something must be done with all those sacrificed bodies, and now we know what it is!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: rangeroger
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 12:59 AM

Ah yes, Long Pork,The "Other" White Meat.

rr


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 09:35 AM

Sorry if I ever upset you, daylia. Its just words. But I use them to express outrage at creaky old satanists like Donald Rumsfeld who sold WMDs to Iraq, Iran, N. Korea and is now saying the Iraq war was never about WMDs. Hundreds of video clips of him using that as justification to invade (on account of the weapons HE sold them), and now he denies it. I mean, the guy is either senile, arrogant or convinced he's hiding behind some magical cloak of invisibility. Its like those guys are practicing magical thinking...just sacrifice a child and you're invincible for another year. That IS how they think. At Bohemian Grove they have the annual 'Cremation of Care' ceremony, after which GWBush says 'Bring 'em on!' and a couple more American troops get killed. Delusional monsters in the White House. They worship Moloch at Bohemian Grove.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 03:48 PM

since there IS no 'Moloch' to worship, who cares? I don't care if they burn Barbie dolls at the feet of a staute of Elvis.

I can only vote, and I WILL vote against the Bush, no matter what his religion and superstitions.

(did I mention that you have no 'real' proof?? And that you have little concept of what 'proof' really is??...oh, yeah...I see I did)


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 04:07 PM

What is Proof? The things been reported on for a hundred years. I have video of one of the ceremonies. Take what you want from that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 03:10 PM

Anti-Bohemian Grove Protest

Type in 'Moloch': In the Bible, the god of the Canaanites and Phoenicians to whom children were sacrificed.

Type in 'Moloch'


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 03:43 PM

repeat....there IS no real Moloch, Owl shaped or otherwise...so sacrifices, real or otherwise, will be useless. Now, if you want me to fret about vague suggestions that there have been real sacrifices of humans, you'l have to offer more than that book on Amazon!!!!!!

You don't need to convince me that Bush and/or other famous people, might get together for silliness sometimes, but I was convinced LONG before you started raving about the Bohemian Grove that I didn't want him in power...for MANY reasons.

Now PLEASE go away.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 03:49 PM

Aw jeeze -- put a sock in it, dear, won't you? Please? This meta-delusional paranoia is unsettling to my stomach.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 03:59 PM

Doesn't matter whether WE believe in Moloch, what matters is that the people running the world do. I'm just holding them accountable. July is their annual get-together. Not worth mentioning? Go back to the bit about Kozlov...height of the US/USSR Cold War, and that pig was being wined and dined at Bohemian Grove. All our 'wars' (including the current 'war on terrorism') are shams. Generated by the people who MEET at Bohemian Grove and other places and plot the next deception.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Moloch
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 05:51 PM

I thought I told you to knock it off. I'm giving you fair warning: you'll be sorry if you make me come up there.

Capish?


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 07:12 PM

yassuh, Mistah Moloch, suh!.... I BELIEVES!...I go now, never to darken this thread again...2 warnings am enuf for me!

But, please...won't you go to Texas and bite 'guest' on the butt, so's he'll have something to REALLY complain about?

...bye


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 11:57 PM

I am back from the gathering.

The MudCatters have nothing to fear. (I vouched-safe for their continuance.)

Sincerely, Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 07:46 AM

Garg, I heard Moloch's one of those new-age vegetarians now -- had a bit of a traffic jam in the colon from a few millenia of that Long Pork diet. Is it true????

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 10:33 PM

Neo-con Schwarzenegger at Bohemian Grove

BEHIND THE COUNT: All eyes will be on the California secretary of state's office today for the big recall count -- but the real plays are going well behind the scenes.

The biggest question, of course, is whether Arnold Schwarzenegger -- who just got back from a European promo tour -- will make this the biggest story of the year by jumping into the fray.

And now that the clock is ticking, the time for playing cute is rapidly coming to an end.

"Everything is set up to go if he says 'yes,' but it's do-it-or-get-off-the- pot time," admitted one source close to the Terminator. "My expectation is that he's talking it over with his wife right now."

One of the keys in all this will be the final round of words between Schwarzenegger and former Los Angeles Mayor Richard Riordan -- who is being urged to run by more liberal Republicans.

"The bottom line," our source told us, "is if Arnold goes, Dick won't. If Arnold doesn't do it, then it's highly likely Dick will -- it's between the two of them to hash out."

From what we've hear, the Republican hierarchy -- especially those close to former Gov. Pete Wilson -- would favor Schwarzenegger. At least that's the word that came out of the Bohemian Grove this past weekend, where a number of state and national GOPers, including presidential adviser Karl Rove, happened to have gathered at a club getaway.


None of this would be good news for Gov. Gray Davis -- who hopes his opponents will be limited to conservatives like Bill Simon or San Diego-area Rep. Darrell Issa.

"There's no question Riordan would be the biggest problem of them all," said one Davis operative. "He's the most liberal, he has a strong name ID in Southern California and you can't pin him as a right-winger -- which is the whole key to the Davis strategy."


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Moloch
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 07:55 PM

Okay, shithead. You’ve
gone a pissed me off good
and proper. I told you to
knock it off, but you just
can’t let it go, can you?
Well, you’ll make a nice
snack – nothing too heavy
on the stomach, and
certainly not enough brains
to matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 08:08 PM

Yeah, yeah, pretty impressive, Moloch...

But you are small potatoes next to Great Cth*lh*. In fact without your font you wouldn't look all that scary. Speaking of sacrificing things, I would like to sacrifice a number of the young fools who drive boom cars in this town. Whom should I call? Have you got an 800 number?

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 08:52 PM

May I contribute the idiots who drive while talking on their cellphones to your next repast?


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