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Join the Anti-Folk Movement!

GUEST,SoulFingers 30 Jan 03 - 02:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 03 - 03:19 PM
Rapparee 30 Jan 03 - 03:41 PM
Clinton Hammond 30 Jan 03 - 04:00 PM
Don Firth 30 Jan 03 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,Jim Krause 30 Jan 03 - 05:02 PM
Art Thieme 30 Jan 03 - 05:16 PM
Ron Olesko 30 Jan 03 - 05:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 03 - 07:54 PM
kendall 30 Jan 03 - 08:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jan 03 - 08:25 PM
GUEST,Billy 31 Jan 03 - 02:09 AM
leprechaun 31 Jan 03 - 12:34 PM
Ron Olesko 31 Jan 03 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,SoulFingers 31 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM
leprechaun 31 Jan 03 - 05:08 PM
Ron Olesko 31 Jan 03 - 05:19 PM
Ron Olesko 31 Jan 03 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,SoulFingers 31 Jan 03 - 05:43 PM
smallpiper 31 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM
mooman 31 Jan 03 - 08:31 PM
Jim Krause 31 Jan 03 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,Billy 01 Feb 03 - 01:28 AM
smallpiper 01 Feb 03 - 06:52 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 07:20 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 01 Feb 03 - 09:28 AM
Hrothgar 01 Feb 03 - 08:54 PM
Frankham 02 Feb 03 - 07:09 PM
harvey andrews 02 Feb 03 - 07:20 PM
GUEST 05 Jul 15 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,leeneia 05 Jul 15 - 07:40 PM
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Subject: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST,SoulFingers
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:57 PM

A call or a longing for folk renewed?

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0305/phillips.php


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:19 PM

She do take a long time saying very little don't she?


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:41 PM

"...soft, inoffensive acoustic guitar-based mush." Geez, that's not the folk music and blues I know and have known.

And yeah, she do go on...and on...and on.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:00 PM

Define the "folk" ya wanna stop...

If it the Time Life series "The Folk Years" that I saw on an infomercial last night, then I'm all for it!

The sooner that tripe is stopped, the better!


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:47 PM

Punk rock.

Merriam-Webster:--

punk (adjective)
1. Very poor. Inferior (played a punk game).
2. Being in poor health (she said she was feeling punk).

Quite apt, I should say. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST,Jim Krause
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 05:02 PM

YAWN


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 05:16 PM


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 05:34 PM

Now now, let's not jump to conclusions based on an article.   I've heard people doing some beautiful traditional music and they call themselves "anti-folk".   We have too many labels!!

From what I've gathered, the anti-folk music developed as a reaction to closed doors from "established" open mics. It was felt that the singer-songwriter movement that began in the late 70's had "softened" the genre. Instrumentation and song subjects in anti-folk are not necessarily responding to preconceived notions.

Check out this article:
article

I'm not giving this a wholesale endorsement. Many of the artists I've heard I would not play on my program because of personal tastes. However I do admire and respect their style.

Ron


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:54 PM

The sad thing is that they don't have an article in the Village Voice about InOBU - now that would be interesting.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 08:06 PM

The original meaning of the word "Punk" is, a weak small sailor who was forced to sleep with one big brute instead of being sodomized by ALL of the brutes.
They were also called "chickens"


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 08:25 PM

I think "punk" actually goes back further, as a word for a (normally female) prostitute. When the real thin wasn't available on board ship, the same term was used for the substitute.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:09 AM

I say, if they want to be "anti-folk" then they have my blessing to "Folk-off"!


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: leprechaun
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:34 PM

Punk - that's the sound their head makes when you whack them with a shillelegh.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:01 PM

It is so nice to see open minds.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST,SoulFingers
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM

I agree Ron, this response looks like a bunch of angry, paranoid, old men who are terrified of their own musical irrelevance.

Not only are these responses ungracious and ungenerous, I'd say they are about as close minded as the folk stalwarts who locked the younger generation of musicians who spawned this movement out.

In other words, these are the attitudes that put off the future generations of folk. You might just as well have used real nails in the crucifixtion of these young musicians, for daring to play the music differently.

And the purists wonder why most music lovers don't want to have anything to do with folkies.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: leprechaun
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:08 PM

Oh! Antifolk. Like Antipasto. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:19 PM

Right on the money Soul Fingers. Actually, I think that most of the folks here are just flexing their humor genes (or at least attempting to!)

This reaction is EXACTLY what caused the folk movement to go underground in the first place and it is the reason why the public at large fails to notice what we are doing. Close minds will do that.

It isn't a question of LIKING the anti-folk music, it is a question of respecting or understanding what they are trying to accomplish. I give them credit.   As I said previously, I am not a big fan of MOST of the anti-folk that I've heard, but I wouldn't let the keep me from hearing more. I'm not that old where I can't appreciate new surprises!

Ron


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:22 PM

typo - that should have been "closed minds"


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST,SoulFingers
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:43 PM

Ron, regardless of whether or not you like their musical interpretations (which is always highly subjective, regardless of genre) of folk music, at least you are willing to: a) listen with an open mind, b) listen with an open heart, c) respect others who have musical tastes different from your own.

Responses like we've seen here must be what orginally was responsible for terms being coined like "folk nazis" and "folk fascists".


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: smallpiper
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:18 PM

I didn't understand a word of that article! But she sold me on at least wanting to hear the duo she was on about and I tend to agree with her about the guitar stuff - missinformed preconceved idea of what constitutes folk that it is but a popular idea never the less.

I play heavy metal folk i.e. the pipes!


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: mooman
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:31 PM

I tend to agree with Ron Olesko here. I was brought up playing Irish traditional and still do but Patricia and myself also play what I would regard as some excellent material by some of these new wave, "anti folkers" or whatever label one wants to attach in a new band we recently put together. But then I've always liked and tried to play any good music, be it folk, blues, jazz, world, rock, punk or whatever, that has an edge and honesty about it.

Peace to all

moo


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Jim Krause
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:00 PM

Actually Ron, and all you others, I was rather bored by the writer of the article, not necessarily the anti-folk folk themselves. I would have characterized the writing style as "prattling."
Jim


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:28 AM

As a presenter of folk music, I have narrowed my definition of "Folk Music" down to the artists' own description of what it is they do. If they say they are "Folk" musicians then I'm likely to believe them and if they can actually play and sing well, I'm likely to hire them. If they are rude and say they are antifolk, well, they ain't folkies and they need to find some other place to play. There are an amazing number of genuine, talented "folk" acts out there, why do we need to bother with these "antis". They may have nurtured and spawned some well-known acts, but they still sound like a bunch of never-made-its.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: smallpiper
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:52 AM

Guest Billy - do you mean "never-made-its." Like 99% of us or just plain old fassioned Tossers? I am just seeking some clarification on this.

I've met plenty of tallented folk musicians who are just as much tossers as anyone who labels themselves as anti.

I think that there is room for everyone


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:20 AM

Like smallpiper, I couldn't understand that article!

I worry at times at protest over "closed doors" though I'm not sure exactly the circumstances Ron reffered to. I would hate for example to feel that the Irish session I go to should feel it had to open up to singing or other forms of "folk" music. I love it for what exactly what it is.

I could also enjoy folk-punk for example - loved the Pogues but I wouldn't call my enjoyent protesting about traditional folk. It's just a matter of being open to enjoy all sorts of music, old directions, new directions and if trying to play, to fit in.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:28 AM

Guest, the "closed doors" that I am referring to is evident in some of the bitter comments about "anti-folk". I agree with others that the article is not an example of good journalistic style - the author is all over the map (must be a Mudcatter!!). The "closed doors" are all the negative comments from people who have not heard a note of the musicians talk about yet they feel comfortable enough to dismiss and ridicule the style.

"Closed doors" exist on both sides. The traditional camp dismiss singer-songwriters as some sort of virus.   The singer-songwriter camp dismisses traditional music as "corny".   What results is an opium-den like existence for both camps.

When both sides meet in tne middle, wonderful things happen. It's not a question of enjoying the music, but one of respect and understanding. One of the best festivals I attended last year was the New Bedford Summerfest. Artists from both sides of the camp were placed onstage and some brilliant sounds emerged.

That doesn't mean you need to bring tubas to the session. It may mean that the person playing the purple electric fiddle at the coffeehouse stops in to that session at the local pub and absorbs and perhaps picks up the standard fiddle to play a few tunes.   It might mean that your bodhran player drops into the coffeehouse and plays a tabla for awhile. It doesn't mean divorcing oneself from the music and style that they love, but rather letting a new experience teach a few lessons.

I'm long winded today. Excuse me! I better try the decaf!

Ron


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:54 PM

I thought "anti-folk" would be the stuff that horses sing.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: Frankham
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:09 PM

There is a tendency in music to react to earlier forms that become established. The reaction of be-bop to swing for example. Jazz was originally a reaction as well to the staid light classical music and sentimentality of it's age. Rock itself became a reaction to the slick crooners of the 40's. The folk revival was a reaction in a sense to the well-oiled popular music on the radio of the 40's and early 50's. I think it's unfortunate however to use the term anti-folk. I believe that perhaps a new name would be better to describe the music....something like earth music or well....punk, grunge..I guess that works to convey a reactive form.

The idea that the term "folk" should be associated with established acts working in coffee houses is unfortunate IMO because it cuts off a lot of the rich musical heritage of folk tradition.

In the field of jazz, Wynton Marsalis tries to show a relationship between the earlier forms of music which at one time were reactive and the later forms in which there is a progression from one form to another rather than a rupture. I think this is also true of hip-hop music in that the narrative rhythmic speech is present historically in African and African-American music.

Years ago, there were a lot of us who were experimenting with folk music and reinterpreting it for our own aesthetic ideas. We were lumped into being "commercial" which we were not since the experimental forms we were using didn't make anyone any money then. And still we got flack from the academic and the established "folk" community. But the irony is that we felt we were a part of the "folk process" in what we were doing.

If today young people want to experiment with a new form of music, and it has a reactive tinge, I don't think this should be dismissed. Listen to it, like it or not, but why not give it a chance?
I feel that way about any music that I am exposed to. I can admire certain forms without actually liking them...such as Arnold Schoenberg, for example.

The anti-folk handle isn't clear enough, though because of the various opinions as to what folk is.....(here we go again!)
IMHO, give it a definable name like be-bop or new age or something that's not exclusively anti but pro the form that's being innovated.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: harvey andrews
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:20 PM

"When both sides meet in tne middle, wonderful things happen. It's not a question of enjoying the music, but one of respect and understanding. One of the best festivals I attended last year was the New Bedford Summerfest. Artists from both sides of the camp were placed onstage and some brilliant sounds emerged."

Sounds very much like the British scene in the 60/70s.Jug O Punch folk club in Birmingham had the Watersons one week, next week Tom Rush, then Jesse Fuller, then Alex Campbell, then The Young Tradition,then Ewan McColl etc. T'was great to be young before the joyous got married had kids, grew older,and stopped coming to the folk clubs leaving the scene to the remaining fanatics who disected, judged, pontificated, founded magazines, sectioned, condemned, moaned, entrenched, closed minds, etc etc. Back then I loved all of it..still do. But I'm locked in this box they've put me in..let me out..LET ME OUT...him too...her too..and them............


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 02:43 PM

I'm up for this.


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Subject: RE: Join the Anti-Folk Movement!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Jul 15 - 07:40 PM

When I think of anti-folk, I think of Schoenberg and his ilk: sounds that to me are meaningless, uninteresting and interminable.

Your mileage may differ.

To me, rock is just folk that thuds, whines or scratches a lot.


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