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Story: Old Woman and the Pig/Father Bought a Kid

Lyn 31 Jan 03 - 02:32 PM
katlaughing 31 Jan 03 - 03:41 PM
Willa 31 Jan 03 - 06:27 PM
katlaughing 31 Jan 03 - 06:54 PM
masato sakurai 31 Jan 03 - 07:38 PM
Big Mick 31 Jan 03 - 08:35 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 03 - 08:44 PM
Willa 01 Feb 03 - 11:56 AM
CapriUni 01 Feb 03 - 02:25 PM
Dave Ruch 18 Dec 03 - 02:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Dec 03 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Andy 16 Oct 04 - 07:11 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Oct 04 - 08:01 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 16 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 16 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM
GUEST 16 Oct 04 - 11:27 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 16 Oct 04 - 11:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Oct 04 - 12:47 AM
Flash Company 17 Oct 04 - 10:08 AM
Raedwulf 17 Oct 04 - 03:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Oct 04 - 04:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Oct 04 - 04:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Oct 04 - 04:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Oct 04 - 05:00 PM
Cool Beans 17 Oct 04 - 05:09 PM
Snuffy 17 Oct 04 - 07:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Oct 04 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 17 Oct 04 - 09:50 PM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Oct 04 - 10:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 04 - 12:41 AM
gigix 18 Oct 04 - 05:45 AM
masato sakurai 18 Oct 04 - 06:56 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 04 - 12:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 04 - 07:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 04 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,joann Jarreau 15 Aug 13 - 12:12 AM
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Subject: Does anyone know this story?
From: Lyn
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:32 PM

I am looking for a nursery rhyme about an old woman who is in a hurry to get home and she gets stuck on a stile with her bags. Several animals come to her help her using a repeating line. Thanks in advance, nobody knows more about folklore than mudcatters.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE WOMAN AND HER PIG
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 03:41 PM

Is it this one?

THE WOMAN AND HER PIG

I went to market and bought me a pig
But pig wouldn't goo.
Pig has four legs I had but two.
'Tis almost midnight, what shall I do?

I went a little further, and found me a dog.
Dog wouldn't bite pig;
Pig wouldn't goo.
'Tis almost midnight, what shall I do?

I went a little further and found me a stick.
Stick wouldn't beat dog; dog wouldn't bite pig;
Pig wouldn't goo.
'Tis almost midnight what shall I do?

I went a little further and found me a fire.
Fire wouldn't burn stick; stick wouldn't beat dog; dog wouldn't bite pig;
Pig wouldn't goo.
'Tis almost midnight, what shall I do?

I went a little further and found me some water.
Water wouldn't quench fire; fire wouldn't burn stick; stick wouldn't beat dog; dog wouldn't bite pig;
Pig wouldn't goo.
'Tis almost midnight, what shall I do?

I went a little further and found me an ox.
Ox wouldn't drink water; water wouldn't quench fire; fire wouldn't burn stick; stick wouldn't beat dog; dog wouldn't bite pig;
Pig wouldn't goo.
'Tis almost midnight, what shall I do?

I went a little further and found me a butcher.
Butcher wouldn't kill ox; ox wouldn't drink water; water wouldn't quench fire; fire wouldn't burn stick; stick wouldn't beat dog; dog wouldn't bite pig;
Pig wouldn't goo.
'Tis almost midnight, what shall I do?

I went a little further and found me a rope.
Rope wouldn't hang butcher; butcher wouldn't kill ox; ox wouldn't drink water; water wouldn't quench fire; fire wouldn't burn stick; stick wouldn't beat dog; dog wouldn't bite pig;
Pig wouldn't goo.
'Tis almost midnight, what shall I do?

I went a little further and found me a rat.
Rat wouldn't gnaw rope; rope wouldn't hang butcher; butcher wouldn't kill ox; ox wouldn't drink water; water wouldn't quench fire; fire wouldn't burn stick; stick wouldn't beat dog; dog wouldn't bite pig;
Pig wouldn't goo.
'Tis almost midnight, what shall I do?

I went a little further and found me a cat.
Cat said "Say PLEASE!"
So then –
The cat began to kill the rat;
The rat began to gnaw the rope;
The rope began to hang the butcher;
The butcher began to kill the ox;
The ox began to drink the water;
The water began to quench the fire;
The fire began to burn the stick;
The stick began to beat the dog;
The dog began to bite the pig;
The pig began to go.
So it's all over now and I'm happy.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Willa
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:27 PM

One of my earliest memories, and I had a hard time tracking it down again recently.
An old woman was sweeping her house and she found a silver sixpence.
'What shall I do with this?' she said. 'I will go to market and buy a pig.'
She went to market and bought a little pig, but as she was coming home she came to a stile, and piggy wouldn't go over the stile.
The old woman looked round and she saw a dog, so she said to the dog:
'Dog, dog, bite pig.
Pig won't get over the stile
And I'll never get home to make the old man's supper.'
But the dog would not.
She went a little further and she found a stick.
So she said:
'Stick, stick, beat dog,
Dog won't bite pig,
Pig won't get over the stile
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the stick wouldn't.
She went a little further and she found a fire.
So she said:
'Fire, fire, burn stick,
Stick won't beat dog,
Dog won't …
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the fire wouldn't.
She went a little further and she found some water.
So she said:
'Water, water, quench fire,
Fire won't burn stick,
Stick won't …
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the water wouldn't.
She went a little further and she met an ox.
So she said:
'Ox, ox, drink water,
Water won't …
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the ox would not.
She went a little further and she met a butcher.
So she said:
'Butcher, butcher, kill ox,
Ox won't drink water,
Water won't …
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the butcher would not.
She went a little further and she met a rope.
So she said:
'Rope, rope, hang butcher,
Butcher won't kill ox,
Ox won't …
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the rope would not.
She went a little further and she met a rat.
'So she said:
Rat, rat, gnaw rope,
Rope won't hang butcher,
Butcher won't …
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the rat would not.
She went a little further and she met a cat.
So she said:
'Cat , cat, kill rat,
Rat won't gnaw rope,
Rope won't …
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
Butt he cat said to her:
'If you to yonder cow and fetch me a saucer of nice fresh milk, I will kill the rat for you.'
So the old woman went to the cow and said:
'Cow, cow, give me a saucer of milk.
Cat won't kill rat,
Rat won't …
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the cow said to her:
If you will go to yonder haymakers and fetch me some hay, I will give you a saucer of fresh milk.'
So the old woman went to the haymakers and said:
'Haymakers, haymakers, give me some hay.
Cow won't give milk,
Cat won't kill rat,
Rat won't gnaw rope,
Rope won't hang butcher,
Butcher won't kill ox,
Ox won't drink water,
Water won't quench fire,
Fire won't burn stick,
Stick won't beat dog,
Dog won't bite pig,
Pig won't get over the stile
And I'll never get home to get the old man's supper.'
But the haymakers said:
If you will go to yonder stream and bring us a bucket of water, we will give you some hay.'
So the old woman went to the stream, but the bucket was full of holes.
She filled the bottom with stones, then filled the bucket with water and took it to the haymakers.
The haymakers gave her some hay and she took it to the cow.
The cow gave her some milk, which the old woman collected in a saucer.
As soon as she gave the milk to the cat-
The cat began to kill the rat,
The rat began to gnaw the rope,
The rope began to hang the butcher,
The butcher began to kill the ox,
The ox began to drink the water,
The water began to quench the fire,
The fire began to burn the stick,
The stick began to beat the dog,
The dog began to bite the pig,
The pig jumped over the stile
And the old woman got safely home to cook the old man's supper.

(Perhaps she should have said 'Please' the first time!)


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:54 PM

Great, Willa! I found the one I posted on the internet. Now that I look it over, I realise the person had a typo all the way through it, saying the "pig wouldn't goo." **bg** I only saw the one at the end, which I'd corrected. Sorry about that, Lyn.

kat


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 07:38 PM

The story version seems to come from English Fairy Tales (1898) by Joseph Jacobs, where the title is The Old Woman and Her Pig [text].

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:35 PM

How come, after all these years, I am still amazed by this place. Wonderful stuff, folks.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 08:44 PM

Thank you Willa and Katlaughing. I am attempting to run a group for young mothers to begin (again) the oral traditions of singing to children, playing a variety of lap games and telling (not reading)stories. Someone asked me for this story and I told her that I suspected I would be able to find it. Now a few more of the next generation will carry it on. Thank again! Lyn


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Willa
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:56 AM

Masato
You are right, and it was in the shop at one of our local museums (Hull UK) that I found a delightful reproduction.The text and illustrations are reproduced from an original published in NY & London in the early 1890's as part of the 'Pleasewell series'.That piece of information delighted me, as my granny lived in London as a child about that time; it's not too far a stretch to think that it might have been one of her childhood favourites.
The version I've posted, though is the one my mother told me. I can't remember a time when I didn't know it. One of the benefits of being the eldest in a big family was that I heard all her stories repeated through the years. On the subject of saying 'Please', btw, we were taught a family verse about 'The little girl who would never say please' which I've never come across any where else. It was very effective !


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: CapriUni
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:25 PM

Guest (Lyn, is that you -- did you lose your cookie?):

I am attempting to run a group for young mothers to begin (again) the oral traditions of singing to children, playing a variety of lap games and telling (not reading)stories.

Brava! Good for you!

As much as I love reading, and recognize its importance as a tool for surviving in this world (since the most contact I have with my closest friends is via the Internet, I would be very lonely indeed if I couldn't read or write), I believe that young children are being pushed into reading too soon, these days.

Learning to read literally changes the way the brain works -- and once you learn to read, you can never shut it off. One of my father's favorite examples is from the era big bridge building in New York State. Often, people from the Mohawk Nation were hired because, unlike their American-European co-workers, they did not get vertigo -- until they learned to read. Once they did that, they could not go onto those high cables anymore... it seems that when their brains were trained to focus on little abstract symbols on a two dimensional surface, their brains were less able to navigate in a broadly expansive three dimensional world.

Also, reading is primarily a solitary activity. Even when you're reading aloud to a child on your lap, you are both looking at a page in a book, and not at each other. Later, when kids can read independantly, and from then on out, it is truly something done alone.

But when you tell a story, there have to be at least two people participating -- at least one to tell, and one to listen. And when it is told from memory, the teller can change details and length to suit the audience in the moment, as Willa's mother did by adding "please" to the story of the old woman and the pig. You can shorten it, or lengthen it, or give the characters the names of friends, and so on.

A couple of years ago, I tried to start a storytelling group for adults with the ultamite goal of creating a band of storytellers who could use the art of storytelling as a tool for strengthening communities, and healing... and not just as a poor substitute for those who can't read fluently... but it fell as flat as a sat-on whoopie cushion... Maybe I'll try again, someday. Maybe you and I could discuss this via PM's to compare notes?

I've often heard it said that "Books are food for the mind." I think the truth is closer to: "Books are refrigerators for the mind." They help store and preserve the stories and ideas that nurture us, but they are not nutritious themselves. I couldn't live in today's world without reading anymore than I could live without a refrigerator... but there is nothing quite so wonderful as eating the apple right off the tree! :-)


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 02:28 PM

A great version of this nursery rhyme in song form appears on English singer David Jones' recording "Widdecombe Fair" under the title "The Old Woman and Her Pig". The entire recording is HIGHLY recommended.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:49 PM

Another nice one, with illustrations: Little Ann

Also: The Fox Jumps Over the Parson's Gate

"The Old Woman and her Pig" with the original illustrations also is on line but I have lost it. Will look later. Also an 1870s book of material from the children's magazine St. Nicholas is online. Also Punch an Judy, etc.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 07:11 PM

So happy to find this -- can't believe there was anyone else that was looking for it! It waw in my Child Craft books of my kiddo days -- Alas when I bought a set in a thrift store as an adult the one volume with this story in it was incomplete! Then it became a "compulsion" God bless the internet and all of YOU!


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 08:01 PM

In our rather less refined family we used to sing:-
Mrs Maguire
peed on the fire
the fire was too hot
she peed on the pot
the pot was round
she peed on the ground
the ground was too flat
she peed on the cat
and the cat ran away
with the pee on its back

Songs my mother taught me - you can perhaps see why I tend to keep quiet about them.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 10:25 PM

All these years LaughKatting - and you still don't acknowledge your sources? Shame! Double Shame! Even when you acknowledge you lifted the content...you still do not acknowledge the source.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM

The version used in our family lacks the pusillanimous pussy's (aka LaughKat's) moralizing "Please" and the sexist old man who is a culinary retard.

"The Old Woman and her Pig" (Or, How the Old Woman Got Home That Night) Better Homes and Gardens Story Book, Selected by Betty O'Connor, Meredith Publishing Company, Des Moines, 1950, pp 83-87. (the book's main illustration for the story is reproduced from the E. Boyd Smith Mother Goose Book copyright 1919, G.P. Putman's Sons.

An old woman was sweeping her house, and she found a little crooked sixpence. "What," she said, "shall I do with this little sixpence? I will go to the market and buy a little pig."

As she was coming home she came to a stile. The piggy would not go over the stile. She went a little farther, and she met a dog. So she said to the dog:

"Dog, dog, bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the dog would not.

On she went little farther, and she met a stick.
So she said:
"Stick, stick, beat dog;
Dog won't bit pig.
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night."

But the stick would not.

On she went a little farther, and she met a fire.
So she said:
"Fire, fire, burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the tile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the fire would not.

On she went a little farther, and she met some water.
So she said:
"Water, water, quench fire;
Fire won't burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile;
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the water would not.

On she went a little farther, and she met an ox.
So she said:
"Ox, ox drink water;
Water won't quench fire;
Fire won't burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the ox would not.

On she went a little farther, and she met a butcher
So she said:
"Butcher, butcher, kill ox;
Ox, won't drink water;
Water won't quench fire;
Fire won't burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the butcher would not.

On she went a little farther, and she met a rope
So she said:
"Rope, rope, hang butcher,
Butcher won't, kill ox;
Ox, won't drink water;
Water won't quench fire;
Fire won't burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the rope would not.

On she went a little farther, and she met a rat
So she said:
"Rat, rat, gnaw rope;
Rope, won't hang butcher,
Butcher, butcher, kill ox;
Ox, won't drink water;
Water won't quench fire;
Fire won't burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the rat would not.

On she went a little farther, and she met a cat
So she said:
"Cat, cat, kill rat;
Rat, rat, gnaw rope;
Rope, won't hang butcher,
Butcher, butcher, kill ox;
Ox, won't drink water;
Water won't quench fire;
Fire won't burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the cat said to her, "If you will go to yonder cow, and fetch me a saucer of milk. I will kill the rat." So away went the old woman to the cow, and said:
"Cow, cow, give me a saucer of milk;
Cat won't kill rat
Rat, won't gnaw rope;
Rope, won't hang butcher,
Butcher, butcher, kill ox;
Ox, won't drink water;
Water won't quench fire;
Fire won't burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the cow said to her, "If you will go to yonder haymakers, and fetch me a wisp of hay, I'll give you some milk." So away went the old woman to the haymakers, and said:
"Haymakers, give me a wisp of hay;
Cow won't give milk;
Cat won't kill rat;
Rat, won't gnaw rope;
Rope, won't hang butcher,
Butcher, butcher, kill ox;
Ox, won't drink water;
Water won't quench fire;
Fire won't burn stick;
Stick won't beat dog;
Dog won't bite pig;
Piggy won't get over the stile,
And I shan't get home to-night!"

But the haymakers said to her, "If you will go to yonder stream, and fetch us a bucket of water, we'll give you the hay." So away the old woman went. But when she got to the stream, she found the bucket was full of holes. So she covered the bottom with pebbles, and then fill the bucket with water, and she went back with it to the haymakers, and they gave her a wisp of hay.

As soon as the cow had eaten the hay, she gave the old woman the milk; and away she went with it in a saucer to the cat. As soon as the cat had lapped up the milk…then

The cat began to kill the rat;
…The rat began to gnaw the rope;
……The rope began to hang the butcher;
………The butcher began to kill the ox;
…………The ox began to drink the water;
……………The water began to quench the fire;
………………The fire began to burn the stick;
…………………The stick began to beat the dog;
……………………The dog began to bite the pig:

The little pig in fright jumped over the stile;
And the old woman got home that night!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:27 PM

Maybe joMamma's in joParta de world have STOPPED the traditions of singing to children but let me tell you honey, most ob de rest of the globe still sings to de chilen, an day don need no encouragin hand holdin, day doin jus fine um huh, day doin jus fine


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:32 PM

Thank you all.

I learned this in my earliest childhood from my grandmother, who was born in the mid-1880's, and I haven't thought about it for years--decades. I'll pass it on to my grandchildren; I wish I'd remembered it when my children were small.

Ah yes: Source: Sarah Olivia Grey Robinson, oral, early 1930's

clint


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:47 AM

This old cumulative folk tale is truly in the public domain; its origin unknown. It is in an Opie book and a 1917 Mother Goose (Marshall) but no indication of age. Early 19th century?
A song version has been collected in Kentucky by Leonard Roberts, but I don't have it. On tape, for sale, www.storydynamics.com


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Flash Company
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:08 AM

Gargoyle's version is the one I remember from a Mid-Cheshire childhood. We also had WeelittleDrummer's verse although in our version Mrs Maguire became Auntie Maria!

FC


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:04 PM

In the same style comes this , particularly see the notes at the bottom which mention the English version of "The Old Woman and her Pig". The House That Jack Built, & There's A Hole In My Bucket, although songs rather than stories, are part of the same genre.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 04:27 PM

Joseph Jacobs also wrote "English Fairy Tales," one of the better books of this kind, and still in print. I believe it also dates from the 1515 period. It has "The Old Woman and Her Pig."
I have just checked, and the first edition came out in 1890.

(The first edition was limited, on vellum, and runs $1000-1200, but a used Dover reprint, with the Batten illustrations of the original, is just $3-5.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 04:34 PM

Title of this thread should be changed to The Old Woman and Her Pig (English).


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 04:39 PM

Oops- Ignore the sentence with 1515, which was supposed to be 1915- Later I found the 1890 first edition offered for sale, so that is the earliest date for the story so far. Perhaps Jacobs wrote it, but his other works suggest that he probably got it from tradition.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 05:00 PM

Found it in Halliwell, 1846, "Nursery Rhymes of England," pp. 182-184, no. CCCC. Little different from the story as posted by Gargoyle. Jacobs mentioned this in Notes at the end of his book.

Is this the earliest?


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 05:09 PM

There's one in the Jewish tradition -- beginning wiht a goat, not a pig -- that is sung at Passover. It's called "Chad Gad Yah" which menas, I believe, "an only kid" and that is the chorus: "Chad Gad Yah, Gad Yah."
And it ends with the Almighty, bringing peace, inseatd of somebody saying "please."
Right before the Al;might, the song has reached this point:

Then came the schochet (kosher slaughterer)
That slew the ox
That drank the water
That quenched the fire
That burned the stick
That hit the dog
That chased the cat
That bit the kid
My father bought for two zuzim.
Chad Gad Yah, Chad Gad Yah

We sang it in Hebrew school in Brooklyn in the 1950s, and we sing at home every Passover.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 07:07 PM

It seems to be known worldwide - Masato posted this on Folkinfo back in May 2003

From: Antti Aarne and Stith Thompson, The Types of the Folktale: A Classification and Bibliography [FF Communications No. 184] (Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia, 1964, p. 529):

2030 The Old Woman and her Pig. Her pig will not jump over the stile so that she can go home. She appeals in vain for help until the cow gives her milk. The final formula is: cow give milk for the cat, cat kill rat, rat gnaw rope, rope hang butcher, butcher kill ox, ox drink water, water quench fire, fire burn stick, stick beat dog, dog bite pig, pigjump over stile. [Z41]
**Goebel Hdwb. d. Märchens I 256. s.v. »Birnli»; *BP II 104, 108; *Taylor's analysis; Köhler-Bolte I 136; Coffin 8; Feilberg Ordbog IV 12 s.v. »and». -- Lithuanian 10; Swedish 22 (Uppsala 1; Stockholm 4; Göteborg 1, Lund 3, Liungman 5, misc. 8); Scottish 8; Irish 95; Beal IV 298ff., X 298f., Jackson FL XLVII 292; English 2; Spanish 1 (A), 2 (B), 2 (C); Catalan: Amades Nos. 254, 589; Italian 6 (Tuscan 4, Sicilian 2); Hungarian: Berze Nagy (286*) 17; Slovenian 1; Turkish: Eberhard-Boratav No. 31 3; India: *Emeneau JAFL LVI 272, *Thompson-Balys (Z41) 3; Indonesian: DeVries No. 21. -- Franco-American (Missouri): Carrière; English-American: Baughman 6; Spanish-American: Hansen (Dominican Republic) 1, (Puerto Rico) 1, (Argentina, 2030**F) 1; West Indies (Negro) 7. -- African (Benga): Nassau 200 No. 30, (Hottentot): Bleek 33 No. 17, (Gold Coast): Barker and Sinclair 177 No. 35, (Ila, Rhodesia): Smith and Dale II 392 No. 17, (Thonga): Junod 223; Jamaica: Beckwith MAFLS 286 No. 138.


From: Ernest W. Baughman, Type and Motif Index of the Folktales of England and North America (Mouton, 1966, p. 64):
2030 The Old Woman and her Pig.

ABERDEEN: Gregor and Moir FL Journal 2:278, 1884; 2:319, 1884. ENGLAND: Clouston Fictions 1:294, 1887. Jacobs English 21-23, 1902. YORK: Gutch County No. 2:363, 1901.
RHODE ISLAND: Dorson JAF 58:111, 1945. Johnson What They Say 198-201, 201-02, 1896 (two variants). TEXAS: Dobie PTFS 6:55, 1927 (see notes and mention of two MS sources, neither of which is reprinted). MISSOURI: Randolph Turtle 61-62, 1957. KENTUCKY: M. Campbell Tales 202-05, 1958.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE KID THAT MY FATHER BOUGHT
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 08:57 PM

This from Halliwell, 1846, p. 178ff.

The original of the song about the kid appears in Sepher Haggadah, fol. 23. The historical interpretation as given by Leberecht in 1731 was printed in the "Christian Reformer."
The original is in the Chaldee language. An illuminated Hebrew MS is mentioned.
Halliwell doesn't give a title; I hope the one I use here is not amiss. Ten verses.

Lyr. Add: THE KID THAT MY FATHER BOUGHT

A kid, a kid, my father bought
For two pieces of money:
A kid, a kid.
Then came the cat, and ate the kid
That my father bought
For two pieces of money:
A kid, a kid.

Then came the dog, and bit the cat,
That ate the kid,
That my father bought
For two pieces of money:
A kid, a kid.

Then came the staff, and beat the dog,
That bit the cat,
That ate the kid,
That my father bought
For two pieces of money:
A kid, a kid.

Then came the fire, and burned the staff,
That beat the dog,
That bit the cat,
That ate the kid,
That my father bought
For two pieces of money:
A kid, a kid.

Then came the water, and quenched the fire,
That burned the staff,
etc.

Then came the ox, and drank the water,
That qunched the fire,
That burned the staff,
That beat the dog,
etc.

Then came the butcher, and slew the ox,
That drank the water,
That quenched the fire,
etc.

Then came the angel of death and killed the butcher,
That slew the ox,
That drank the water,
etc.

Then came the Hol    ,blessed be He!
And killed the angel of death,
That killed the butcher,
etc.

Translated from the Sepher Haggadah.
Interpretation by Halliwell, condensed)
The kid, one of the pure animals, denotes the Hebrews.
The father, by whom it was purchased, is Jehovah.
The two pieces of money signify Moses and Aaron, through whose mediation the Hebrews were brought out of Egypt.
The cat denotes the Assyrians, by whom the ten tribes were carried into captivity.
The dog is symbolic of the Babylonians.
The staff signifies the Persians.
The fire indicates the Grecian Empire under Alexander.
The water betokens the Romans, or the fourth of the great monarchies to which the Hebrews were subjected.
The ox is a symbol of the Saracens, who subjugated Palestine and brought it under the Caliphate.
The butcher denotes the Crusaders, who ousted the Saracens.
The angel of death signifies the Turkish power (which ousted the Franks), to which Palestine is still subject (true in Halliwell's time- and up to WW1).
The tenth stanza is designed to show that God will take signal vengeance on the Turks, immediately after whose overthrow the Jews are to be restored to their own land under the government of their long-expected Messiah.

Halliwell, 1846, "Nursery Rhymes of England," CCCXCIX, pp. 178-182.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 09:50 PM

Hull - O -

Mr. Q

Re: Found it in Halliwell, 1846, "Nursery Rhymes of England," pp. 182-184, no. CCCC. Little different from the story as posted....

Since

YOU

have access;
......And you have the source:
..............And you acknowledge differences in text;
.......................And this a forum for discussion of folk "oral" traditions;

PLEASE, post the WORDS you have found, and their source!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Mr. Clint Kells

Well-Done and thank you!!! Source: Sarah Olivia Grey Robinson, oral, early 1930's However, please add geographic locations to finish out a citation.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 10:13 PM

J O Halliwell, Nursery Rhymes of England: http://www.presscom.co.uk/nursery.html


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:41 AM

Gargoyle, Sie haben Rechte. Looking back at my copy, there is a variant noted by Halliwell.

Malcolm, thanks for the link; the copy I took from the net a couple of years ago lacks the indexing at the end. The text has been in my computer, forgotten until I got to looking into this tale.

Lyr. Add: The Old Woman and the Pig
Halliwell, 1846
(no title cited, indexed by first line)

An old woman was sweeping her house, and she found a little crooked sixpence. 'What,' said she, 'shall I do with this little sixpence? I will go to market, and buy a little pig.' As she was coming home, she came to a stile; the piggy would not go over the stile.

She went a little further, and she met a dog. So she said to the dog, 'Dog! bite pig; piggy won't go over the style; and I shan't get home tonight.' But the dog would not.

She went a little further, and she met a stick. So she said, 'Stick! stick! beat dog; dog won't bite pig; piggy won't get over the stile; and I shan't get home tonight.' But the stick would not.

She went a little further, and she met a fire. So she said, 'Fire! fire! burn stick; stick won't beat dog; dog won't bite pig.' (and so forth, always repeating the foregoing words) But the fire would not.

She went a little further; and she met some water. So she said, 'Water! water! quench fire; fire won't burn stick.' But the water would not.

She went a little further, and she met an ox. So she said, 'Ox! ox! drink water; water won't quench fire,' etc. But the ox would not.

She went a little further and she met a butcher. So she said, 'Butcher! butcher! kill ox; ox won't drink water,' etc. But the butcher would not.

She went a little further, and she met a rope. So she said, 'Rope! rope! hang butcher; butcher won't kill ox,' etc. But the rope would not.

She went a little further, and she met a rat. So she said, 'Rat! rat! gnaw rope; rope won't hang butcher,' etc. But the rat would not.

She went a little further, and she met a cat. So she said, 'Cat! cat! kill rat; rat won't gnaw rope,' etc. But the cat said to her, if you will go to yonder cow, and fetch me a saucer of milk, I will kill the rat.' So away went the old woman to the cow.

But the cow said to her, 'If you will go to yonder haystack, *
-------
*or haymakers, proceeding thus in the stead of the rest of the paragraph:- "and fetch me a wisp of hay, I'll give you the milk.- So away the old woman went, but the haymakers said to her,- if you will go to yonder stream, and fetch us a bucket of water, we'll give you the hay. So away the old woman went, but when she got to the stream, she found the bucket was full of holes. So she covered the bottom with pebbles, and then filled the bucket with water, and away she went back with it to the haymakers; and they gave her a wisp of hay."
----------

and fetch me a handful of hay, I'll give you the milk.' So away went the old woman to the haystack; and she brought the hay to the cow.

As soon as the cow had eaten the hay, she gave the old woman the milk; and away she went with it in a saucer to the cat.

As soon as the cat had lapped up the milk, the cat began to kill the rat; the rat began to gnaw the rope; the rope began to hang the butcher; the butcher began to kill the ox; the ox began to drink the water; the water began to quench the fire; the fire began to burn the stick; the stick began to beat the dog; the dog began to bite the pig; the little pig in a fright jumped over the stile; and so the old woman got home that night.

James Halliwell, 1846, 4th ed., "The Nursery Rhymes of England," CCCC, pp. 182-185.
Link above, post by Malcolm Douglas.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: gigix
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 05:45 AM

Interesting indeed. Here in Italy is widespread, in many different versions, a similar song or nursery rhyme. I don't flood you with the entire text, but the sequence goes more or less this way:
a goat in the wood
fire burns the wood
water extinguishes fire
the ox drinks water
the butcher slaughters the ox
death catches the butcher
Then a famous songwriter in the seventies made quite a bunch of money recording "Alla fiera dell'Est" (At the East Fair)where:
my father bought a mouse
the cat ate the mouse
the dog bit the cat
the stick hit the dog
the fire burned the stick
the water extinguisged the fire
the bull drank the water
the butcher killed the bull
the angel of death took the butcher.

All Italy seemed to sing it for a while, and still now the recorded song is the one that is tought to children. To my own children I tought both the "folk" and the "pop" version. Presently they seem to like more the folk one, because music and rhytm give more fun in it.
Luigi


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 06:56 AM

The version mentioned in Q's post above (Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:47 AM) was collected from Jim Couch, and is in Leonard Roberts' Sang Branch Settlers: Folksongs and Tales of a Kentucky Mountain Family (University of Texas Press, 1974, pp. 217-19). However, it's a cante-fable (a story in which song is interspersed into the spoken prose narrative). The song is sung 12 times in the tale (the last verse is different):

X:1
T:[none]
M:2/4
L:1/8
K:G
GG GD/D/|E/G/(B B)A|G3 D|
w:1.I can't get to my lit-tle boy_ to-night. It's
w:12.And she got to her lit-tle boy_ that night, It was
EG AG/G/|(BA) G2-|G4|
w:al-most dark but the moon_ shines._
w:al-most dark but the moon_ shined._


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 12:18 PM

Masato, I presume that is the Roberts-Couch version that is available on tape (my early post here). Haven't heard it, so I can't be certain.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:10 PM

That bucket with a hole in it could so easily have got diverted into the closed circuit of "There's a hole in my bucket"... And then she'd never have got home.


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Subject: RE: Does anyone know this story?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:37 PM

The episode could have been avoided if the old woman had pre-planned.
More brainless yet is the protagonist of "My Bucket's Got a Hole in It." Lyrics(?) and music(?) by Clarence Williams and sung by Hank Williams.
Chorus:
Yea! My bucket's got a hole in it. (3x)
I can't buy no beer.

Bucket
If you link to see the verses, you deserve the pop-ups.


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Subject: RE: Story: Old Woman and the Pig/Father Bought a Kid
From: GUEST,joann Jarreau
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:12 AM

This is a story that my nanan taught us as we grew up and told this story to us all the time and all the children such as neices and nephews and even just freinds heard this story!!


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