Space Shuttle Crash?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:59 PM

The sharks smell blood now.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:57 PM

Beccy,

On the asumption that you consider yourself truly informed, I'd be interested to know about the very many advancements in the fields of science, medicine and technology that have been "side effects" of the space program.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:56 PM

I would agree with you there Lou, but the catters are having too good a time of it attacking Johnny. Best stick to the obit thread if you find the "kill the messenger" sport distasteful, as it is quite common around here, as the heros of this thread so ably are demonstrating.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: LouMurray
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:53 PM

Unfotunately, throughout history the path to discovery has been paved with the lost lives of brave and farsighted people. Rather than expounding on all the theories and spouting political garbage, our thoughts prayers should be with the families of those who paid the ultimate price onboard the Columbia.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:51 PM

Guilty as charged of coming back to make a parting shot.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Beccy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:51 PM

Bobert- To add to what you said...

There have been so very many advancements in the fields of science, medicine and technology that have been "side effects" of the space program. I don't see how anyone who is truly informed about what the space program has done -and what results as an offshoot of the research done by NASA- can say that.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:48 PM

I thought you'd given up, 'Johnny'?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:46 PM

Agreed McGrath, but train crashes aren't so 'sexy'

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:46 PM

But there is nothing political about the fact that the US space shuttle accident is your main news McGrath, while the train wreck in Zimbabwe isn't, now is there?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:45 PM

I was listening to C-SPAN on the car radio coming home from work a little while ago and was amazed at the number of callers who thought the space program was a waste of money. The way many sounded one would think that NASA had a monsterous budget, which relative to other budgets, is small at $15 billion a year.

When you think of how far man has come since Sputnik it is amazing that so few people have been killed relative to the dangers. I think we all knew going into this some 42 years ago that there would be mishaps, just like in any dangerous endeavor.

But this does not make this any easier to anyone. Just the sad reality that there are no gains without pains. And as I pointed out earlier, the souls, families and friends are in my prayers today.

Bobert

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM

I just put on the news - every news channel the same story, the Space Shuttle.

Looked up the news headlines on Ceefax. Out in Zimbabwe there's been a terrible train crash, with at least 34 dead. So far as I could see that didn't get a mention in the news bulletins.

And yet Zimbabwe is about the same distance from where I live as Texas, and train crashes are a lot closer to home than space shuttle crashes, and in the real world I see people from Zimbabwe more often than people from America or Israel.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM

I give up.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:35 PM

"interested in the political side of this tragedy"

What political side?

It was an accident, plain and simple...

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:31 PM

For what it's worth: yes, I think that having an Israeli astronaut was a coincidence.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:27 PM

With all due respect to you Peter, you are giving but one limited, medieval defintion of a dramatic tragedy, like Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde. Also falling within the definition of a dramatic tragedy is a conflict between protagonist(s) and a superior force such as destiny, circumstance, society, which comes to a sorrowful or disastrous conclusion, which can (though not always) result in a cathartic cleansing of emotion, as Aristotle described in his descriptions of the effects of Greek tragedy.

Although it isn't the primary definition of catharsis, there is a more contemporary meaning of the word catharsis, which describes a process of bringing repressed ideas and feelings into consciousness.

The latter definition, in the context of a dramatic tragedy, was what I was making reference to in my posts about this event. My immediate reaction to it was as a dramatic national tragedy for the US, and international tragedy, because of the death of the Israeli astronaut, and the accident occurring (roughly, in initial reports) in the proximity of Palestine, Texas.

The claims that this space shuttle mission wasn't political are preposterous. I mean c'mon, does anyone REALLY think it was just a coincidence that the international astronaut chosen for this mission was an Israeli, considering the propaganda campaign the Texas Cowboy has undertaken to prop up Israel's and the US' interests in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:08 PM

To be technical, it wasn't a tragedy, but pathos. A tragedy involves a flawed hero struggling vainly against an inexorable fate that he brings upon himself. Pathos is someone suffering or dying because of forces greater than they are, in spite of their goodness or heroism or youth. Dying before your time by accident is an example of pathos, not tragedy. Possibly a collective version of tragedy would be if the space program was seen as a fundamentally flawed enterprise because of pride, and the astronauts victims of that pride; and their fate thereby would shed light on the inevitable failure of human ambition. I doubt if the astronauts would be happy to be seen in such a light. Of course, it may be that (as partly occurred in the Challenger disaster) someone knew that something was going to go wrong, and was prevented by their own blindness from stopping it -- that would then be a tragedy for that person.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:07 PM

An explosion during take-off, as with Challenger, there might be a possibility of some kind of sabitage - but hardly with a re-entry disaster.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM

Well, out of the 5 deadly space program accidents involving crews, 3 of them have been re-entry accidents. Two were Russian, and the Columbia makes it the third.

Time's science correspondent had this to say about potential causes:

TIME.com: What are the possible scenarios that could have caused this disastrous accident on the shuttle's reentry into the Earth's atmosphere?

Jeffrey Kluger: There are three possible scenarios that explain this event. The first, which I believe is the likeliest explanation, would be an aerodynamic structural breakup of the shuttle caused by it rolling at the wrong angle. Remember, after reentry, the shuttle is descending without power, which means astronauts at the controls can't compensate for a loss of attitude by using the engines, they can only do so using the flaps. And that's extremely hard. Astronauts describe piloting the shuttle on reentry as like trying to fly a brick with wings. It's very difficult to operate, and even more so to correct any problems.

A second explanation might be a loss of tiles leading to a burn-through. (The shuttle is covered with heat-resistant tiles to protect the craft and those inside it from burning up in the scorching temperatures caused by the friction of reentry.) But I think that explanation is unlikely, because the tile-loss would have had to have been quite substantial for that to become possible. You'll hear a lot in the next few days about things falling off the shuttle during liftoff. But it often happens that they lose a few tiles, and I'd be surprised if it happened on a scale that could make an accident of this type possible.

The last option is some kind of engine failure leading to fuel ignition. Although the main tanks are mostly empty, there should still be fuel left in the maneuvering tanks. But probably not enough for an explosion that could have caused this breakup.

And just in case anybody was wondering, you can almost certainly rule out terrorism as a cause. This incident occurred well above the range of shoulder-fired missiles. And it would probably be easier to sneak a bomb onto Air Force One than to get one onto the shuttle.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:43 PM

Ah fellas, I'm doing my damndest here to keep things civil. But I am really beginning to resent the suggestions being made in this thread that those of us who are interested in the political side of this tragedy, are pond scum intent upon exploiting the dead.

Cool it, OK?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

From a pilot's bulletin board:

-----------

The first, or early theories, concern the break-off of foam from a fuel tank hitting the left wing during take-off. They apparently knew that the piece of the debris striking the orbiter airframe structure may have knocked off some ceramic tiles from the underside of the vehicle.

Early reports indicated that NASA knew that those tiles had been knocked off and even recovered them after the launch but didn't release the information. They should have known that that would have caused a potential problem. But there was nothing they could have done to prevent the predestined disaster. Bringing the vehicle home early would not have mattered. In fact, bringing it home early would mean a larger fuel load to worry about.

It would be a stretch to blame it on a terrorist act.

It would be idiotic to blame it on the current Whitehouse administration.

It was a technical, structure/airframe, failure of a "High Tech" vehicle.

Remember that safe air travel was a slowly gained process of four or five decades.

Rumors are that early ships sank in prehistoric times.

Nasa engineers estimated a loss of one of every 75 shuttle missions. This and Challenger makes the record one in 63. This is to be expected.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: The Pooka
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM

Well said as usual McG. of H. / Of course there *will* be exploitation of this, because some folks will exploit *anything*. But we must ignore such. / May the souls of the brave Columbia 7 rest in peace; and may their mission by all means go on.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:34 PM

"Who are these seven men
Whose path leads them so far
And shake our minds to wonder who they are.
They scout the new frontier
To find a surer way
And they look to us
For they have shown the way...."

From a song about the original Mercury astronauts, as sung on the Kingston Trio's (?) "Time To Think" album way back in the '60s. I wish I knew the whole thing....

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:09 PM

McGrath, my "shouting down" comment wasn't in reference to you, and I apologize for making appear as such.

Really, I only meant to say that cool heads should prevail when tragedies like this occur. There should be room for both working through grief, and working through a tragedy that will have political fallout, regardless of whether some people believe there are no political aspects to the event at all. The #1 politician in America made the official announcement--the president of the US. The quote above from ABC News shows there are clearly political concerns related to this tragedy.

I started an obituary thread, in hopes that those who are grieving get the space they need to share their grief there. Perhaps we could agree to keep this thread for those who want to express their political concerns too.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:02 PM

I'm not shouting down anybody. Just saying that I see it as another sad accident in a world where too many sad accidents happen, and we shrug them off as inevitable, and don't give them the attention and respect they deserve most of the time.

I hope that these deaths aren't going to be exploited in any way by people who see them a useful symbols of something other than what they were - a bunch of brave people who were killed in a tragic accident. At least it's pretty likely that the causes of the accident will be examined pretty thoroughly, and some dangers for future space travellers reduced as a result.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:55 PM

Drag...

One hates to see a good astronaut go down...

Hopefully this won't send NASA into another tail-spin of self-doubt and funding slashes...

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:51 PM

Of course, all the networks have carried this news now. But it has been made official. From ABC News:

"Columbia is lost; there are no survivors," President Bush announced.
Bill Readdy, NASA's associate administrator for space flight, said it was too early to speculate about what destroyed the shuttle. A senior U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said there was no immediate indication of terrorism."

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM

McGrath, I'm surprised that you of all people, can't seem to grasp the immediate implications of the Shakespearean/Greek tragedy aspects of this spectacular event. There is always a politics of national and international tragedies like this. Now, there may be some who protest that, as we have seen in this thread. Those who suggest the mere mention of the political ramifications of this national and international tragedy, is abhorrent to them.

But that should hardly mean that we should immediately shout down those who have an honest and innocent impulse towards precisely that sort of understanding of the event. I believe it to be every bit as natural and appropriate as the behavior of those who wrap themselves in grief. Neither response should be taboo, as they both reflect the reality of the event.

May I remind everyone, this is not an obituary thread. Now, if it would comfort those who wish only to discuss grief, then perhaps it is time to start an obituary thread, rather than engage in vituperative insults and character assassination of those who wish to discuss the political aspects of the tragedy.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

I can't help but wonder if they realized reentry would not be
survivable prior to attempting it due to damage sustained at
take off (lost tiles) and how the risks of scattering debri
across 5 or 6 states may have been weighed.
God bless the crew and their families.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:29 PM

A tragic loss to the families and to the program. A sad day for all of us.

Each of us will speculate over what could have gone wrong, but no real answer will come until after weeks and months of careful analysis by the investigating agencies.

Many of the inventions, medical and engineering innovations and procedures developed in the program are in use around the world. Exploration of all kinds pays dividends that benefit us all.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:20 PM

I opened this thinking it would be about the Challenger - maybe some new information or some new theory. I haven't seen it on the news, because I haven't seen the news since it happened.

Very sad. Like a road accident where a bus goes off the road and a bunch of people are killed. I suppose with the space shuttle they are more aware it's dangerous, and there must be a sense in which they have this in mind as a possibility. But like the road accident, it's the price we have all agreed to pay for certain technological additions to our world. I can't say I see it as really different. Bad stuff happens sometimes.

Talk about it in terms of geo-politics and that seems somehow irrelevant to me. It invites people to see it in the wrong context, with flags and patriotism and that, when it's really a tragic accident like so many others we pass by and ignore - and we shouldn't.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:17 PM

I'm with Aine. While we all grieve, I think it is of equal importance to rise above it, and acknowledge that these people represent what are truly the best qualities of the American spirit. We should be very, very proud.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Chip2447
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:15 PM

My thoughts go out to those family members left behind. Seven souls who died doing exactly what made them happy, and Seven more seventeen years before nearly to the day, and three more on Jan 27, 1967.

    Ladies and Gentlemen,
    keep reaching for the stars.
    Keep striving for the future.
    Keep the dreams alive,
    Keep the passion for discovery.
   
    We will mourn your passing,
    And remember your courage.
    Godspeed...

Chip2447

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM

We're just waking up to the news down under.
I'm devastated! I remember when the Columbia first went up - I phoned the local radio talkback show and sang the chorus of "Roll on Columbia, roll on...."
May they all roll on!

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:59 PM

I am so apalled at the stupidity of some asshole who would use a thread like this to peddle his/her misguided prejudices. I hope that he/she rots in hell or wherever their particular stupid belief puts people who fail the exam of life. They've certainly flunked this particular test.
Me: my heart grieves for those who died, and I can't help remembering those others who died before, particularly Christa McAuliffe, who really touched my heart.
By all means be cynical about all the conspiracy theorists that you'll see and hear over the next few days/weeks. Apart from that commend these poor souls to the world, and pray for their souls.
Giok

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Dave, I heard on NPR that, while it was the oldest, it was basically the newest, in that it had just had "the works" done to it in an overhaul, which they all go through from time to time.

While I agree it is unseemly to start the debates in this thread, it is true, from what I saw and heard, that the government immediately started denying any terrorist link.

Be at peace,

kat

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:42 PM

The space program in the United States is now 42 years old. And in those 42 years, only three fatal accidents have occurred. As tragic as those accidents are, a record like this pays tribute to all the brave and courageous folks who have been involved in the program over the years.

I would hope that all of us who have benefitted from their efforts will remember those who have been lost with utmost respect for their bravery and skill; there are few of us who could say that we have dedicated our own lives, as they did, to the betterment of mankind.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:41 PM

I agree Amos, that this is a terrible national and international tragedy. But I respectfully disagree that the loss of life was a waste. Those astronauts are pioneers, explorers. The scientific and technological advances made on these missions are astonishing.

A tragic loss? Most certainly. But a waste? I sure don't think so, and I'm willing to bet their families don't think so either. Rather, I'm betting they have both tremendous grief, combined with tremendous pride over their loved ones' achievements. How could they consider their sacrifices and achievements a waste?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: chip a
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:40 PM

There now, that's better!
This is awful. My kids, who don't remember the last time this happened, have been calling me. Having been raised on a diet of the spectacular, it seems to take a spectacular event to get our attention. I for one am going to try, each time I am reminded of today's sorrows, to remember the less well advertised, less "newsworthy" sorrows in this world. My heart and the hearts of my kids go to the families of these souls lost today.
Chip

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Chip
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM

S.R.S. I'm a member with temporary cookie loss. Who is "we"?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:25 PM

SRS:

I concur, but the kind of paranoid anonymous rhetorical blather being contirbuted by the alleged person in question is offensive and inappropriate.

My condolences to UT Arlington. This is a national tragedy. I can think of only one ramification of any benefit -- it might sober up some of those who are slathering for a death-filled catastrophe overseas. Whichever side they are on.

A

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Smallpiper -missplaced cookie
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:12 PM

My they all rest in peace

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:05 PM

The government brought up the conspiracy stuff first. There was no need to mention terrorism in the first reports. They tied the tragedy into their 'war on terrorism' right out of the gate. That's all I have to say on it. I hope the astronauts and the half-dozen military who die in helicopter and plane accidents here in Texas each week all rest in peace.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Cluin (at girlfriend's)
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:02 PM

Damn!

I remember vividly when the Challenger exploded. I watched the lift-off while eating breakfast and almost choked on my toast then. I felt, then as now, very sorrowful for the astronauts, their families, and the Space Program as a whole, in that order.

Then I went to my class and heard some stupid bastard say something to the effect of: "Good! Maybe now the Yanks won't be so cocky anymore!" Well, it took a real effort to keep from putting my fist in that asshole's face that day and I'm not looking forward to hearing all the conspiracy theories sure to be flying about now. Nor all the uninformed assholian statements sure to accompany them. I'm getting too old for this crap.

This is a sad day. `Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:00 PM

This is a reminder that it's still a program in flight test. CNN just said that this was the eldest space craft in service. Maybe we just learned something about the service life of spacecraft.

Best to the families. As Amos said "beautiful, brave souls, smart, able and ready to do an incredibly challenging job"

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Chip
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

Lets keep the conspiracy stuff away from the grave site. This, like all suffering and loss is tragic. If you need a "bully pulpit" why not erect it in another thread?

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM

News reports here in Texas are quoting the Nacogdoches fire chief as saying that debris "is everywhere". The good news is that no one on the ground has been injured by falling debris, and that since so much of it will be recovered by NASA, perhaps another accident like this one will be able to be avoided in the future.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM

I feel sorry for the families of the lost, and for the dead.

But the first releases from the government-controlled media mentioned 'terrorism', 'Israeli', and 'tighter security'. So, since they brought it up, no surface to air missile could reach that high. And the only plane capable of reaching that height is the U.S. space plane Aurora. Last week Gary Hart (CFR member) said Dallas, Denver and Cleveland could expect to be hit. The U.S. postal service has been issuing potassium iodate to it's workers (protects the thyroid from uptake of radiation...# 1 cause of radiation death after an incident). Dallas is a postal hub. Did the shuttle contain any radioactive substances? And why did the White House start focusing our attention on 'dirty bombs' last week? And the 'tighter security'...bunch of multi-agency nametags milling around before lift-off is what I saw photos of...result of all our pooling the feds into a national Gestapo police force. So who would know who in a situation like that? And those national police now have carte blanche to assassinate 'as needed'.

IF this was terrorism...big IF...don't let the government tell you again it was a bunch of goat herders who think black-powder rifles are high technology, like they did with September 11.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Stringman
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:37 PM

Our prays go out to all the next of Kin.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM

Guest 11:37, to respond to your comment about me (or any of us) caring only about American lives--NOT true. I am grieving just as much for the Israeli as I am the Americans. I cared very much about the people in Afghanistan,and I care very much about us dropping bombs on the Iraqui people, but there is very little I can do about any of it. I can stop the war in Iraq just as easily as I can keep Columbia from exploding...........if you have a constructive idea, let's hear it.

Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

The flags at NASA have just been lowered to half mast, and the first news film of on ground parts is being broadcast... Larry