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Space Shuttle Crash?

GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 09:50 AM
Sorcha 01 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 10:03 AM
mack/misophist 01 Feb 03 - 10:04 AM
Áine 01 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 01 Feb 03 - 10:08 AM
jimlad 01 Feb 03 - 10:11 AM
Jeri 01 Feb 03 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 10:17 AM
Áine 01 Feb 03 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 10:32 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 10:43 AM
jimmyt 01 Feb 03 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 11:15 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 11:16 AM
Midchuck 01 Feb 03 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 11:17 AM
katlaughing 01 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 11:22 AM
Bobert 01 Feb 03 - 11:23 AM
InOBU 01 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM
InOBU 01 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM
Sorcha 01 Feb 03 - 11:28 AM
InOBU 01 Feb 03 - 11:32 AM
InOBU 01 Feb 03 - 11:35 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 11:37 AM
greg stephens 01 Feb 03 - 11:42 AM
InOBU 01 Feb 03 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Agnostic 01 Feb 03 - 11:50 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 11:51 AM
Stilly River Sage 01 Feb 03 - 12:00 PM
Bill D 01 Feb 03 - 12:00 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM
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Ed. 01 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM
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Amos 01 Feb 03 - 12:26 PM
InOBU 01 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM
Sorcha 01 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM
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Amos 01 Feb 03 - 01:25 PM
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chip a 01 Feb 03 - 01:40 PM
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katlaughing 01 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM
John MacKenzie 01 Feb 03 - 01:59 PM
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GUEST,Q 01 Feb 03 - 02:29 PM
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Ed. 01 Feb 03 - 04:31 PM
Clinton Hammond 01 Feb 03 - 04:35 PM
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McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM
Bobert 01 Feb 03 - 04:45 PM
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Ed. 01 Feb 03 - 04:46 PM
Ed. 01 Feb 03 - 04:48 PM
Beccy 01 Feb 03 - 04:51 PM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 04:51 PM
LouMurray 01 Feb 03 - 04:53 PM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 04:56 PM
Ed. 01 Feb 03 - 04:57 PM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM
Beccy 01 Feb 03 - 05:15 PM
Ed. 01 Feb 03 - 05:22 PM
InOBU 01 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM
LouMurray 01 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 05:24 PM
Beccy 01 Feb 03 - 05:24 PM
treewind 01 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM
Amos 01 Feb 03 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM
Peter T. 01 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM
Mark Cohen 01 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM
Amos 01 Feb 03 - 05:46 PM
Mark Cohen 01 Feb 03 - 05:47 PM
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Ebbie 01 Feb 03 - 06:27 PM
Mr Happy 01 Feb 03 - 06:37 PM
Mr Happy 01 Feb 03 - 06:38 PM
catspaw49 01 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM
Peter T. 01 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM
catspaw49 01 Feb 03 - 07:02 PM
Ed. 01 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 07:17 PM
Blues=Life 01 Feb 03 - 07:18 PM
bob schwarer 01 Feb 03 - 07:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM
Rustic Rebel 01 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM
GUEST 01 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM
InOBU 01 Feb 03 - 07:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,p.mitchell@mums 01 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM
Mary in Kentucky 01 Feb 03 - 08:33 PM
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Stilly River Sage 01 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,Johnny 01 Feb 03 - 09:17 PM
jimmyt 01 Feb 03 - 11:29 PM
GUEST,Johnny 02 Feb 03 - 12:11 AM
catspaw49 02 Feb 03 - 12:18 AM
Peg 02 Feb 03 - 08:51 AM
Mary in Kentucky 02 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM
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Donuel 02 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Johnny 02 Feb 03 - 07:22 PM
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Subject: Space Shuttle? Oh shit
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:50 AM

Not sure what to say. Hope it doesn't put space effort back too far. Sorry to the families of evevyone involved.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle? Oh shit
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:58 AM

It did crash, then? I haven't heard.......


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle? Oh shit
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM

The NASA spokeswoman says that its 'broken up' and all are dead


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle? Oh shit
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:01 AM

From the Washington Post:

NASA declared an emergency after losing communication with space shuttle Columbia as the ship soared over Texas several minutes before its expected landing time Saturday morning.

The shuttle was carrying the first Israeli astronaut and six Americans, and authorities had feared it would be a terrorist target.

Fifteen minutes after the expected landing time, and with no word from the shuttle, NASA announced that search and rescue teams were being mobilized in Dallas and Fort Worth areas.

Inside Mission Control, flight controller hovered in front of their computers, staring at the screens. The wives, husbands and children of the astronauts who had been waiting at the landing strip were gathered together by NASA and taken to separate place.

Columbia was at an altitude of 200,700 feet over north-central Texas at a 9 a.m., traveling at 12,500 mph when mission control lost contact and tracking data.

NASA, while not saying the shuttle had exploded, broken up or crashed, warned that any debris found in the area should be avoided and could be hazardous. There were reports of debris seen falling.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle? Oh shit
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:03 AM

Oh the irony of it all--over Texas, first Israeli astronaut, the "terrorist threat"...


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:04 AM

Shit


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM

The video that you all are seeing on CNN and other television new stations was taken by an amateur photographer, who filmed the images just west of Fort Worth. The local TV station is reporting that 911 emergency calls are coming in from Palestine, Texas, which is about 120 miles southeast of Dallas/Fort Worth, claiming that debris is falling to the ground there.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:08 AM

This is surreal. I am listening to NPR and they are all happily talking about the Columbia being ready to land in 13 minutes!
But The Washington Post says otherwise.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: jimlad
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:11 AM

Another Sad,Sad day for America,Keep the faith Yanks


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:15 AM

I read news here and then go turn on CNN. They're showing large bits of debris falling the long miles to the ground.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:17 AM

Sorry, should have said the geopolitical irony of it all.

This is very sad. I love the space program, despite it's military uses, because it continues to instill cosmic dreams. May the astronauts all rest in peace, and their families find solace in the months and years ahead.

But this is just chilling, my sense of this accident (which was instantaneous as I heard the news) as tragic cosmic theatre--the crashing to earth of the Bush/Sharon military domination of the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:22 AM

The debris is not falling over the DFW area where the shuttle was filmed breaking up in the air. Local news reports are saying that debris is falling over a large area 100+ miles southeast of Dallas/Fort Worth -- towns mentioned are Athens, New York, Nacogdoches, College Station, and Palestine (pronounced pal-a-steen).

No injuries on the ground so far, but a bank building in New York, Texas, may have been hit with a very large piece of debris.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:32 AM

Washington Post's latest update now includes these eyewitness comments:

Residents of north Texas heard "a big bang" Saturday about the time the space shuttle Columbia disappeared on its way to a landing at Cape Canaveral.

"It was like a car hitting the house or an explosion. It shook that much," said John Ferolito, 60, of Carrolton, north of Dallas.

Gary Hunziker in Plano said he saw the shuttle flying overhead. "I could see two bright objects flying off each side of it," he told The Associated Press. "I just assumed they were chase jets."

"I was getting read to go out and I heard a big bang and the windows shook in the house," Ferolito told The AP. "I was getting ready to go out and I heard a big bang and the windows shook in the house. I thought it was a sonic boom."

Bob Multer of Palestine, Texas, told CNN he saw what looked like a high-flying jet and heard a noise.

"It would be very similar to a tornado, it was very loud and intense," Multer said. "It was loud enough and it was low enough that it shook the building."


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:43 AM

CNN is now reporting that residents as far east as Shreveport, Louisiana, reported seeing and feeling an apparent explosion.

What the hell would cause an explosion of that magnitude?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 10:55 AM

Sorry Guest Johnny, but any irony that you find in this tragedy trying to wave some damn antiwar flag or Bush/Sharon moralistic crap is at best in very poor taste


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:15 AM

You are entitled to your opinions jimmyt. But how fair are you being by trashing my honest response to this tragic even, by declaring it to be in poor taste?

I responded to this spectacular event (perhaps you haven't seen the film footage of the explosion, the stories of the new Homeland Security minister rushing to the White House, the eyewitness accounts of a sound like a sonic boom and burning wreckage drifting to the ground. I responded by invoking the metaphor of Shakespearean or Greek tragedies, both of which include geopolitical ironies. Apparently, you lack familiarity with those sorts of metaphors. You might want to expand your reading list.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:16 AM

They came in at the wrong angle


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:17 AM

"If blood be the price of Admiralty,
Lord God, we have paid in full..."

(R.K.)

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:17 AM

I also heard that there were to be some pilot experiments done during this mission, though the talking head was speculating. Apparently this was the pilot's first time in space.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM

What a terrible tragedy. Aine, thanks for the local updates.

Perhaps in finding some irony in certain aspects, it helps to try to understand and/or cope with such horrific news.

May the god of their hearts have helped them and seen them safely through such a tragic transition.

kat


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:22 AM

From CBS:

"On Jan. 16, shortly after Columbia lifted off, a piece of insulating foam on its external fuel tank came off and was believed to have struck the left wing of the shuttle. Leroy Cain, the lead flight director in Mission Control, assured reporters Friday that engineers had concluded that any damage to the wing was considered minor and posed no safety hazard."


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:23 AM

I am most saddened for the families and friends of the crew and would encourage those of Faith to take a few minutes to ask God to be there for them on this horrific day and in the coming days.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM

A witness 150 miles south east of Dallas says the wreakage was making S turns, the manuver that the shuttle uses to slow. lets hope for hope. Larry


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM

PS hope for slow enough to eject, i mean...


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:28 AM

Johnny, I read it the way you intended it, not the way jimlad interpreted it. It is ironic and it won't suprise me if They manage to find some way to blame it on Iraq. I'm not saying They Will, or that it is; just that it will not surprise me if it happens. Sad day.....


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:32 AM

FOR THOSE IN PERIL ON THE SEA
(William Whiting)

Eternal Father, strong to save
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave.
Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep
Oh hear us when we cry to thee
For those in peril on the sea.

O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
And hushed their raging at Thy word
Who walked'st on the foaming deep
And calm amidst its rage didst sleep.
Oh hear us when we cry to thee
For those in peril on the sea.

Most Holy Spirit! Who didst brood
Upon the chaos dark and rude,
And bid its angry tumult cease
And give, for wild confusion, peace
Oh hear us when we cry to thee
For those in peril on the sea.

O Trinity of love and power
Our brethren shield in danger's hour
From rock and tempest, fire and foe
Protect them wheresoe'er they go.
Thus evermore shall rise to Thee
Glad hymns of praise from land and sea.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:35 AM

does someone have the Air force verse... those in peril in te air?
Larry


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:37 AM

Why didn't we have any such threads when America were dropping bombs on Afghanistan?

This thread reinforces my opinion that American lives matter more than others to Americans


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:42 AM

Deepest sympathy. Ignore the tossers.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:46 AM

Dear Guest... having written songs about the civilian casualties in Afganistan and other American wars... and posted them here...I offer that you may wish to sit a while and concider you next comments in reguards to weather or not you consider Americans to be your fellow humans. If you do not, well, you have just taken sides in a war, and I have nothing to say to you other than I am opposed to war. We have seven families watching thier husbands wives and children in great peril. You have a hard heart to speak of the in humanity of others.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Agnostic
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:50 AM

I blame God


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:51 AM

I blame the Alien and Bush Conspiracy.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:00 PM

I was up very late last night (burst water heater) so didn't get up early today. I woke at 8, but went back to sleep. The explosion is evidently what awoke me, but I live near the freeway so there is more ambient noise anyway that I'd have to sort the explosion from. The local weather folks had been taping the image of the shuttle going overhead for their news programs. It's usually a non-event that is part of the weather cast. For local news, go to The Fort Worth Star Telegram. They're telling us that anyone who finds anything on the ground is to leave it alone and alert authorities. Aparently from South Fort Worth (where I am) across to Nacogdoches (a couple of hundred miles at least east of here) and beyond there is a debris field.


Maggie


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:00 PM

what the mem & women who get into the space shuttle do is comparable to explorers who have been sailing the seas for thousands of years. They know it is dangerous, but they go anyway, and each time they do, they add to the total of knowlege and human accomplishment.

Those who fly into space are merely more visable and command our notice.....I mourn their loss and share the sadness at their sacrifice......and I know, as soon as it is deemed proper, others will fill their places and continue the dream.

We cry, and then we keep on, as we have always done.............


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM

There was an Israeli astronaut on board. The shit is going to hit the fan and lots of consipracy theories are going to hatch now. Several Texans on board also, apparently.

Maggie


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:06 PM

The poetical and larger political irony of this, with an Israeli astronaut going down over the town of Palestine, Texas may end up being a focal point for news abroad.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM

Amen, Bill D


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

I agree SRS. It is a tragedy with almost too much geopolitical irony, as I said.

But I am also reassured, knowing that for these 7 people, they lived a life fuller than all humanity, you know? They got to fly in space. What a gift. If I had to go after 16 days of flying in space, I can't say that would be a tragedy for me personally, even though I know it would be for my survivors.

So on the personal scale of the human beings killed, I don't think it matters to them. If it did, they wouldn't have been willing to risk their lives to do it.

Their families also knew the risks, not that foreknowledge of the risk lessens their loss one iota. The immediate task at hand now is to soften the blow as much as possible for them, and comfort the living.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:25 PM

Wisconsin astronaut's trip capped remarkable career
Jenny Price
Associated Press

Published Feb. 1, 2003 CLARK02
   

Laurel Clark joined the Navy to pay her way through medical school, but space beckoned as her military career drew to a close and the former flight surgeon sought a new challenge.

Clark, 41, a Racine native who graduated from Horlick High School, was among seven astronauts on board the space Shuttle Columbia when it apparently disintegrated in flames over Texas minutes before it was to land in Florida this morning. It was her first mission.

``It had been an absolutely flawless flight,'' her brother, Daniel Clark, said in a telephone interview today. ``To have this happen with 15 minutes to go until it was over was just unbelievable.''

Clark, who lives in Milwaukee and had been at Cape Canaveral for the Jan. 16 launch, got up at 5 a.m. today to monitor Columbia's progress live on his computer.

When the shuttle lost communication with NASA, he didn't realize what was happening, he said.

``It took about 10 minutes for me to catch on that something was wrong,'' he said.

Just one day before, he had received an e-mail from his sister about how much she was enjoying her experience aboard the shuttle.

``She loved it,'' he said. ``I'm just so glad she got to get up to space and got to see it because that had been a dream for a long time.''

Clark was on board to help with Columbia's science experiments.

She had already used her medical and scientific expertise to help create an astronaut treadmill in use on the international space station.

``She wasn't just intelligent,'' Dan Clark said. ``All the astronauts are just amazing people. She's just one of those people who made the right moves. She got along with people... She saw the path to be an astronaut was open - she went at it full throttle all the way.''


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:26 PM

My god. Those beautiful, brave souls, smart, able and ready to do an incredibly challenging job. What a waste.


A


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

The flags at NASA have just been lowered to half mast, and the first news film of on ground parts is being broadcast... Larry


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM

Guest 11:37, to respond to your comment about me (or any of us) caring only about American lives--NOT true. I am grieving just as much for the Israeli as I am the Americans. I cared very much about the people in Afghanistan,and I care very much about us dropping bombs on the Iraqui people, but there is very little I can do about any of it. I can stop the war in Iraq just as easily as I can keep Columbia from exploding...........if you have a constructive idea, let's hear it.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Stringman
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:37 PM

Our prays go out to all the next of Kin.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM

I feel sorry for the families of the lost, and for the dead.

But the first releases from the government-controlled media mentioned 'terrorism', 'Israeli', and 'tighter security'. So, since they brought it up, no surface to air missile could reach that high. And the only plane capable of reaching that height is the U.S. space plane Aurora. Last week Gary Hart (CFR member) said Dallas, Denver and Cleveland could expect to be hit. The U.S. postal service has been issuing potassium iodate to it's workers (protects the thyroid from uptake of radiation...# 1 cause of radiation death after an incident). Dallas is a postal hub. Did the shuttle contain any radioactive substances? And why did the White House start focusing our attention on 'dirty bombs' last week? And the 'tighter security'...bunch of multi-agency nametags milling around before lift-off is what I saw photos of...result of all our pooling the feds into a national Gestapo police force. So who would know who in a situation like that? And those national police now have carte blanche to assassinate 'as needed'.

IF this was terrorism...big IF...don't let the government tell you again it was a bunch of goat herders who think black-powder rifles are high technology, like they did with September 11.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:46 PM

News reports here in Texas are quoting the Nacogdoches fire chief as saying that debris "is everywhere". The good news is that no one on the ground has been injured by falling debris, and that since so much of it will be recovered by NASA, perhaps another accident like this one will be able to be avoided in the future.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Chip
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

Lets keep the conspiracy stuff away from the grave site. This, like all suffering and loss is tragic. If you need a "bully pulpit" why not erect it in another thread?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:00 PM

This is a reminder that it's still a program in flight test. CNN just said that this was the eldest space craft in service. Maybe we just learned something about the service life of spacecraft.

Best to the families. As Amos said "beautiful, brave souls, smart, able and ready to do an incredibly challenging job"


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Cluin (at girlfriend's)
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:02 PM

Damn!

I remember vividly when the Challenger exploded. I watched the lift-off while eating breakfast and almost choked on my toast then. I felt, then as now, very sorrowful for the astronauts, their families, and the Space Program as a whole, in that order.

Then I went to my class and heard some stupid bastard say something to the effect of: "Good! Maybe now the Yanks won't be so cocky anymore!" Well, it took a real effort to keep from putting my fist in that asshole's face that day and I'm not looking forward to hearing all the conspiracy theories sure to be flying about now. Nor all the uninformed assholian statements sure to accompany them. I'm getting too old for this crap.

This is a sad day. `Nuff said.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:05 PM

The government brought up the conspiracy stuff first. There was no need to mention terrorism in the first reports. They tied the tragedy into their 'war on terrorism' right out of the gate. That's all I have to say on it. I hope the astronauts and the half-dozen military who die in helicopter and plane accidents here in Texas each week all rest in peace.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Smallpiper -missplaced cookie
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:12 PM

My they all rest in peace


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:25 PM

SRS:

I concur, but the kind of paranoid anonymous rhetorical blather being contirbuted by the alleged person in question is offensive and inappropriate.

My condolences to UT Arlington. This is a national tragedy. I can think of only one ramification of any benefit -- it might sober up some of those who are slathering for a death-filled catastrophe overseas. Whichever side they are on.

A


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Chip
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM

S.R.S. I'm a member with temporary cookie loss. Who is "we"?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: chip a
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:40 PM

There now, that's better!
This is awful. My kids, who don't remember the last time this happened, have been calling me. Having been raised on a diet of the spectacular, it seems to take a spectacular event to get our attention. I for one am going to try, each time I am reminded of today's sorrows, to remember the less well advertised, less "newsworthy" sorrows in this world. My heart and the hearts of my kids go to the families of these souls lost today.
Chip


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:41 PM

I agree Amos, that this is a terrible national and international tragedy. But I respectfully disagree that the loss of life was a waste. Those astronauts are pioneers, explorers. The scientific and technological advances made on these missions are astonishing.

A tragic loss? Most certainly. But a waste? I sure don't think so, and I'm willing to bet their families don't think so either. Rather, I'm betting they have both tremendous grief, combined with tremendous pride over their loved ones' achievements. How could they consider their sacrifices and achievements a waste?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Áine
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:42 PM

The space program in the United States is now 42 years old. And in those 42 years, only three fatal accidents have occurred. As tragic as those accidents are, a record like this pays tribute to all the brave and courageous folks who have been involved in the program over the years.

I would hope that all of us who have benefitted from their efforts will remember those who have been lost with utmost respect for their bravery and skill; there are few of us who could say that we have dedicated our own lives, as they did, to the betterment of mankind.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Dave, I heard on NPR that, while it was the oldest, it was basically the newest, in that it had just had "the works" done to it in an overhaul, which they all go through from time to time.

While I agree it is unseemly to start the debates in this thread, it is true, from what I saw and heard, that the government immediately started denying any terrorist link.

Be at peace,

kat


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:59 PM

I am so apalled at the stupidity of some asshole who would use a thread like this to peddle his/her misguided prejudices. I hope that he/she rots in hell or wherever their particular stupid belief puts people who fail the exam of life. They've certainly flunked this particular test.
Me: my heart grieves for those who died, and I can't help remembering those others who died before, particularly Christa McAuliffe, who really touched my heart.
By all means be cynical about all the conspiracy theorists that you'll see and hear over the next few days/weeks. Apart from that commend these poor souls to the world, and pray for their souls.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM

We're just waking up to the news down under.
I'm devastated! I remember when the Columbia first went up - I phoned the local radio talkback show and sang the chorus of "Roll on Columbia, roll on...."
May they all roll on!


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Chip2447
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:15 PM

My thoughts go out to those family members left behind. Seven souls who died doing exactly what made them happy, and Seven more seventeen years before nearly to the day, and three more on Jan 27, 1967.

    Ladies and Gentlemen,
    keep reaching for the stars.
    Keep striving for the future.
    Keep the dreams alive,
    Keep the passion for discovery.
   
    We will mourn your passing,
    And remember your courage.
    Godspeed...

Chip2447


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:17 PM

I'm with Aine. While we all grieve, I think it is of equal importance to rise above it, and acknowledge that these people represent what are truly the best qualities of the American spirit. We should be very, very proud.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:20 PM

I opened this thinking it would be about the Challenger - maybe some new information or some new theory. I haven't seen it on the news, because I haven't seen the news since it happened.

Very sad. Like a road accident where a bus goes off the road and a bunch of people are killed. I suppose with the space shuttle they are more aware it's dangerous, and there must be a sense in which they have this in mind as a possibility. But like the road accident, it's the price we have all agreed to pay for certain technological additions to our world. I can't say I see it as really different. Bad stuff happens sometimes.

Talk about it in terms of geo-politics and that seems somehow irrelevant to me. It invites people to see it in the wrong context, with flags and patriotism and that, when it's really a tragic accident like so many others we pass by and ignore - and we shouldn't.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:29 PM

A tragic loss to the families and to the program. A sad day for all of us.

Each of us will speculate over what could have gone wrong, but no real answer will come until after weeks and months of careful analysis by the investigating agencies.

Many of the inventions, medical and engineering innovations and procedures developed in the program are in use around the world. Exploration of all kinds pays dividends that benefit us all.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

I can't help but wonder if they realized reentry would not be
survivable prior to attempting it due to damage sustained at
take off (lost tiles) and how the risks of scattering debri
across 5 or 6 states may have been weighed.
God bless the crew and their families.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM

McGrath, I'm surprised that you of all people, can't seem to grasp the immediate implications of the Shakespearean/Greek tragedy aspects of this spectacular event. There is always a politics of national and international tragedies like this. Now, there may be some who protest that, as we have seen in this thread. Those who suggest the mere mention of the political ramifications of this national and international tragedy, is abhorrent to them.

But that should hardly mean that we should immediately shout down those who have an honest and innocent impulse towards precisely that sort of understanding of the event. I believe it to be every bit as natural and appropriate as the behavior of those who wrap themselves in grief. Neither response should be taboo, as they both reflect the reality of the event.

May I remind everyone, this is not an obituary thread. Now, if it would comfort those who wish only to discuss grief, then perhaps it is time to start an obituary thread, rather than engage in vituperative insults and character assassination of those who wish to discuss the political aspects of the tragedy.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:51 PM

Of course, all the networks have carried this news now. But it has been made official. From ABC News:

"Columbia is lost; there are no survivors," President Bush announced.
Bill Readdy, NASA's associate administrator for space flight, said it was too early to speculate about what destroyed the shuttle. A senior U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said there was no immediate indication of terrorism."


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 02:55 PM

Drag...

One hates to see a good astronaut go down...

Hopefully this won't send NASA into another tail-spin of self-doubt and funding slashes...


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:02 PM

I'm not shouting down anybody. Just saying that I see it as another sad accident in a world where too many sad accidents happen, and we shrug them off as inevitable, and don't give them the attention and respect they deserve most of the time.

I hope that these deaths aren't going to be exploited in any way by people who see them a useful symbols of something other than what they were - a bunch of brave people who were killed in a tragic accident. At least it's pretty likely that the causes of the accident will be examined pretty thoroughly, and some dangers for future space travellers reduced as a result.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:09 PM

McGrath, my "shouting down" comment wasn't in reference to you, and I apologize for making appear as such.

Really, I only meant to say that cool heads should prevail when tragedies like this occur. There should be room for both working through grief, and working through a tragedy that will have political fallout, regardless of whether some people believe there are no political aspects to the event at all. The #1 politician in America made the official announcement--the president of the US. The quote above from ABC News shows there are clearly political concerns related to this tragedy.

I started an obituary thread, in hopes that those who are grieving get the space they need to share their grief there. Perhaps we could agree to keep this thread for those who want to express their political concerns too.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:34 PM

"Who are these seven men
Whose path leads them so far
And shake our minds to wonder who they are.
They scout the new frontier
To find a surer way
And they look to us
For they have shown the way...."

From a song about the original Mercury astronauts, as sung on the Kingston Trio's (?) "Time To Think" album way back in the '60s. I wish I knew the whole thing....


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: The Pooka
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM

Well said as usual McG. of H. / Of course there *will* be exploitation of this, because some folks will exploit *anything*. But we must ignore such. / May the souls of the brave Columbia 7 rest in peace; and may their mission by all means go on.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

From a pilot's bulletin board:

-----------

The first, or early theories, concern the break-off of foam from a fuel tank hitting the left wing during take-off. They apparently knew that the piece of the debris striking the orbiter airframe structure may have knocked off some ceramic tiles from the underside of the vehicle.

Early reports indicated that NASA knew that those tiles had been knocked off and even recovered them after the launch but didn't release the information. They should have known that that would have caused a potential problem. But there was nothing they could have done to prevent the predestined disaster. Bringing the vehicle home early would not have mattered. In fact, bringing it home early would mean a larger fuel load to worry about.

It would be a stretch to blame it on a terrorist act.

It would be idiotic to blame it on the current Whitehouse administration.

It was a technical, structure/airframe, failure of a "High Tech" vehicle.

Remember that safe air travel was a slowly gained process of four or five decades.

Rumors are that early ships sank in prehistoric times.

Nasa engineers estimated a loss of one of every 75 shuttle missions. This and Challenger makes the record one in 63. This is to be expected.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:43 PM

Ah fellas, I'm doing my damndest here to keep things civil. But I am really beginning to resent the suggestions being made in this thread that those of us who are interested in the political side of this tragedy, are pond scum intent upon exploiting the dead.

Cool it, OK?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM

Well, out of the 5 deadly space program accidents involving crews, 3 of them have been re-entry accidents. Two were Russian, and the Columbia makes it the third.

Time's science correspondent had this to say about potential causes:

TIME.com: What are the possible scenarios that could have caused this disastrous accident on the shuttle's reentry into the Earth's atmosphere?

Jeffrey Kluger: There are three possible scenarios that explain this event. The first, which I believe is the likeliest explanation, would be an aerodynamic structural breakup of the shuttle caused by it rolling at the wrong angle. Remember, after reentry, the shuttle is descending without power, which means astronauts at the controls can't compensate for a loss of attitude by using the engines, they can only do so using the flaps. And that's extremely hard. Astronauts describe piloting the shuttle on reentry as like trying to fly a brick with wings. It's very difficult to operate, and even more so to correct any problems.

A second explanation might be a loss of tiles leading to a burn-through. (The shuttle is covered with heat-resistant tiles to protect the craft and those inside it from burning up in the scorching temperatures caused by the friction of reentry.) But I think that explanation is unlikely, because the tile-loss would have had to have been quite substantial for that to become possible. You'll hear a lot in the next few days about things falling off the shuttle during liftoff. But it often happens that they lose a few tiles, and I'd be surprised if it happened on a scale that could make an accident of this type possible.

The last option is some kind of engine failure leading to fuel ignition. Although the main tanks are mostly empty, there should still be fuel left in the maneuvering tanks. But probably not enough for an explosion that could have caused this breakup.

And just in case anybody was wondering, you can almost certainly rule out terrorism as a cause. This incident occurred well above the range of shoulder-fired missiles. And it would probably be easier to sneak a bomb onto Air Force One than to get one onto the shuttle.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:07 PM

An explosion during take-off, as with Challenger, there might be a possibility of some kind of sabitage - but hardly with a re-entry disaster.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:08 PM

To be technical, it wasn't a tragedy, but pathos. A tragedy involves a flawed hero struggling vainly against an inexorable fate that he brings upon himself. Pathos is someone suffering or dying because of forces greater than they are, in spite of their goodness or heroism or youth. Dying before your time by accident is an example of pathos, not tragedy. Possibly a collective version of tragedy would be if the space program was seen as a fundamentally flawed enterprise because of pride, and the astronauts victims of that pride; and their fate thereby would shed light on the inevitable failure of human ambition. I doubt if the astronauts would be happy to be seen in such a light. Of course, it may be that (as partly occurred in the Challenger disaster) someone knew that something was going to go wrong, and was prevented by their own blindness from stopping it -- that would then be a tragedy for that person.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:27 PM

With all due respect to you Peter, you are giving but one limited, medieval defintion of a dramatic tragedy, like Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde. Also falling within the definition of a dramatic tragedy is a conflict between protagonist(s) and a superior force such as destiny, circumstance, society, which comes to a sorrowful or disastrous conclusion, which can (though not always) result in a cathartic cleansing of emotion, as Aristotle described in his descriptions of the effects of Greek tragedy.

Although it isn't the primary definition of catharsis, there is a more contemporary meaning of the word catharsis, which describes a process of bringing repressed ideas and feelings into consciousness.

The latter definition, in the context of a dramatic tragedy, was what I was making reference to in my posts about this event. My immediate reaction to it was as a dramatic national tragedy for the US, and international tragedy, because of the death of the Israeli astronaut, and the accident occurring (roughly, in initial reports) in the proximity of Palestine, Texas.

The claims that this space shuttle mission wasn't political are preposterous. I mean c'mon, does anyone REALLY think it was just a coincidence that the international astronaut chosen for this mission was an Israeli, considering the propaganda campaign the Texas Cowboy has undertaken to prop up Israel's and the US' interests in the Middle East?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:31 PM

For what it's worth: yes, I think that having an Israeli astronaut was a coincidence.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:35 PM

"interested in the political side of this tragedy"

What political side?

It was an accident, plain and simple...


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM

I give up.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM

I just put on the news - every news channel the same story, the Space Shuttle.

Looked up the news headlines on Ceefax. Out in Zimbabwe there's been a terrible train crash, with at least 34 dead. So far as I could see that didn't get a mention in the news bulletins.

And yet Zimbabwe is about the same distance from where I live as Texas, and train crashes are a lot closer to home than space shuttle crashes, and in the real world I see people from Zimbabwe more often than people from America or Israel.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:45 PM

I was listening to C-SPAN on the car radio coming home from work a little while ago and was amazed at the number of callers who thought the space program was a waste of money. The way many sounded one would think that NASA had a monsterous budget, which relative to other budgets, is small at $15 billion a year.

When you think of how far man has come since Sputnik it is amazing that so few people have been killed relative to the dangers. I think we all knew going into this some 42 years ago that there would be mishaps, just like in any dangerous endeavor.

But this does not make this any easier to anyone. Just the sad reality that there are no gains without pains. And as I pointed out earlier, the souls, families and friends are in my prayers today.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:46 PM

But there is nothing political about the fact that the US space shuttle accident is your main news McGrath, while the train wreck in Zimbabwe isn't, now is there?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:46 PM

Agreed McGrath, but train crashes aren't so 'sexy'


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:48 PM

I thought you'd given up, 'Johnny'?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Beccy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:51 PM

Bobert- To add to what you said...

There have been so very many advancements in the fields of science, medicine and technology that have been "side effects" of the space program. I don't see how anyone who is truly informed about what the space program has done -and what results as an offshoot of the research done by NASA- can say that.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:51 PM

Guilty as charged of coming back to make a parting shot.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: LouMurray
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:53 PM

Unfotunately, throughout history the path to discovery has been paved with the lost lives of brave and farsighted people. Rather than expounding on all the theories and spouting political garbage, our thoughts prayers should be with the families of those who paid the ultimate price onboard the Columbia.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:56 PM

I would agree with you there Lou, but the catters are having too good a time of it attacking Johnny. Best stick to the obit thread if you find the "kill the messenger" sport distasteful, as it is quite common around here, as the heros of this thread so ably are demonstrating.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:57 PM

Beccy,

On the asumption that you consider yourself truly informed, I'd be interested to know about the very many advancements in the fields of science, medicine and technology that have been "side effects" of the space program.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:59 PM

The sharks smell blood now.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM

Ed, apparently you aren't a rocket scientist.

What program do you suppose is responsible for the development and maintenance of international satellite communications you are privleged to have the ability to afford access to, right now, to receive the news of the tragedy?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM

Here is the story about the Zimbawe train crash.

And here is a story about two bus crashes also in Zimbbwe which have killed 48 people.

That's over 80 people killed in a couple of days. But it doesn't make the main news.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Beccy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:15 PM

Well, Ed. For starters:

* Preliminary design of an automated oxygen enrichment system for premature babies. Working with Los Angeles County/USC Medical Center, NASA's retired volunteers and doctors are working to remove the inaccuracies of manually controlled oxygen systems, which can affect the infant's eyesight, brain and lung development.

* Solving a blood clot problem found with a stent that could cause heart attacks. NASA introduced a special electropolishing process to provide a super-smooth stent surface. The electropolishing process, developed in the aerospace industry, is not well known by doctors. The resulting electropolished stent practically eliminated further blood clot formation with the device.

Using space technology, scientists have developed extraordinary ceramic photocells that could repair malfunctioning human eyes.

NASA-funded scientists are crafting microscopic vessels that can venture into the human body and repair problems - one cell at a time.

Using space technology, NASA-funded researchers are developing artificial bones for pain-free hip implants.

Using a space-age device called a bioreactor, researchers have grown patches of tissue that beat and respond much like a human heart does.

NASA- and industry-sponsored research aimed at growing plants in space has led to a device that attacks and destroys airborne pathogens -- like Anthrax.

... not to mention GPS, satellite communications, aeronautic research and advancement and whatnot...

...but I digress.

* Creation of an advanced-database private computer network for pediatricians. Working with Childrens Hospital Los Angeles, NASA professionals and retirees are helping pediatricians nationwide to correspond about children's illnesses using JPL's method of data management. This database will provide a depository for historical data of diagnoses, research, treatments and results. Doctors estimate that extended medical use of the computer database systems could reduce health care costs by 20 to 30 percent.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:22 PM

Thanks Beccy, that's interesting.

The 'non stick' pan arguement was getting a little tired.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

Hi McGrath:
I don't think it is raw numbers that makes news here. It is a greater human tragidy, that the train has crashed. Yet, if the space program is slowed by this tragidy, then we loose the huge advances in medicine and comunications, and everything esle that the space program has brought us. I think the space program has been missused and still the entire world has benifited from the program and there is a great hope of peaceful progress when in the days of the USSR we were able to cooperate in space. Train travel will continue, sadly, I think train travel in the third world will not be made more safe, but, we have to hope that in replacing the shuttle, we will put the funding there, rather than war, and reach out into space and accross national lines. Remember when we thought a huge asteroid was going to hit in 17 years or so? Well, lets hope the loss of these brave folks pushes the US to build a better ship so when the next asteroid finds us, we are ready for it.
All the best to all,
and pray for the families of the train passengers as well
Larry


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: LouMurray
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

Good job Beccy


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:24 PM

I detect increasing enmity and malice in the last several posts, and I agree that it is inappropriate in this thread. And I include my last couple of responses. I apologize for taking the bait the trollers put out for me.

It won't happen again.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Beccy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:24 PM

Thanks, Lou and Ed...
Go on, boys... challenge me.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM

I'm sure the Zimbabwe crash is big news in Zimbabwe.

Kevin - in Britain the Ladbroke Grove train crash provoked all sorts of national outcry about railway safety - yet a few weeks later the same number of people would have died in road accidents but none of that got a mention in the national press and there were'nt questions asked about road safety in all the papers.

I agree, there's a lot of sensationalism here.

I admit I've succumbed too - else why did I choose to read this thread?

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:35 PM

Johnny:

Those lives and all they could have accomplished were thrown away. It was understandable,s ure, but a waste nevertheless.   Nature is full of waste. This one seems particularly poignant to me because they were extraordinary humans making a difference in the state of the world.   And I would imagine their families would have been more proud of them over time if they had continued living and pushing that frontier. But, pon the other hand, you are under no obligation to agree with what is a purely subjective view.

A


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM

Thanks for your reply Amos. But I've lost interest in participating here.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM

Chaucer's version of tragedy (if any Christian story can be considered tragic) is usually a variation of the sinful fall story, or the movement of the wheel of fortune. Hamartia, the Aristotelian concept of the "flaw", operates against a different backdrop.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM

Beccy, I agree that the space program has produced many gains in science and technology that have been useful. I could also give you a long list of medical advances -- including almost all of modern trauma surgery and intensive care -- that resulted directly from our involvement in the Korean and Vietnam wars. I appreciate these advances, and recognize that they may one day save my life or the life of someone I care about. But I am still opposed to war. Your argument is a common one, but not, as Mr. Spock would say, logical. And I say that as someone who is not inherently opposed to the space program--just the way it's been militarized from the very beginning.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM

Thanks for your reply too, Peter.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:46 PM

From Declan McCullagh' politech list, a fervent insight into how this qualifies as "waste":



====

Two years ago, I was a highly decorated NASA engineer. I was awarded
their highest medal, for Exceptional Achievement -- something that is usually
reserved for senior managers -- because of my expertise.

I was a safety engineer.

I was removed from my GS-13 position, as an internationally-recognized
authority on hypergolic propellants and explosives, and forced off the
Kennedy Space Center. At gunpoint.

Their excuse was that I had "abused government equipment." Because I
sent a friend an e-mail joke.

The reality was that I wouldn't play their "political ball."

I F-ING WARNED THEM.

I told them that the technicians and engineers were overworked. I told
them that there were too many managers and too many meetings and
"dog-and-pony" shows. I told them that their senior "face time" play games, while they spent all their time plotting how to give each other pay raises, and left
the guys on the floor to struggle day to day with obsolete and overpriced and
unqualified equipment, was going to result in another Challenger.

I was there for Challenger.

I saw the same exact conditions happening again. Overpaid, lazy,
irresponsible managers concerned solely with their climbing up their
ladders.

I told them they were skimping on inspections. I told them that the
ground crews were asleep on their feet from exhaustion. I made as much
noise as I knew how to make about the top-heavy bureaucracy sitting around
in their fancy panelled offices, giving whorish press interviews in their
smugness, while they did not have a clue what was going on in the real
world where I was working.

They fired me. They fired a GS-13 civil servant, with an Exceptional
Service medal and ten dozen commendations. For sending an e-mail joke.

In reality, for objecting to political fat-cats sitting on their fat rear
ends and failing to do their jobs.

Like Challenger, those who are most guilty are the ones who will attempt
to make the most political capital out of it. But the blame for Columbia
lies entirely and totally with the NASA administrators. They should all be
investigated for their criminal negligence. They should all serve time
in jail.

I warned them. They did their best to destroy me, because I warned them.

It's too bad that innocent astronauts paid with their lives for NASA
managers greed and political ass-kissing.

But I am not surprised.

Two years ago, I warned them.

Dian Hardison
Cocoa, FL 32927



Amos

---


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 05:47 PM

...and I suppose that militarization was inevitable, since the first sizable working rockets were used as weapons. In fact, I probably should have said the "incomplete demilitarization" of the space program.

Aloha,
Mark

I suppose there is some relief to hear that the loss of heat-shielding tiles on liftoff was probably not the cause of the destruction of the shuttle. At least we don't have to imagine that the crew went through the entire mission thinking that they were likely not to come back.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Homer
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM

Israeli astronaut Ilan Ramon doesn't qualify as a tragic hero?


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:27 PM

As for more media attention to the loss of seven lives in a space shuttle than to 50 lives lost in train crashes, agreed. But you can take that farther- what of the 50,000 + lives lost on our highways every year? Almost as many lost in highway crashes annually as American lives lost in all of the Viet Nam conflict.

Obviously it is not the number of lives lost in a given unit that we consider important...


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:37 PM

'Talk about it in terms of geo-politics and that seems somehow irrelevant to me. ,It invites people to see it in the wrong context with flags and patriotism and that, when it's really a tragic accident like so many others we pass by and ignore - and we shouldn't. '

& you can bet your life that vested interests will surely capitalise on this!

in the form of more 'Improperganda!'


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:38 PM

sorry, meant to attribute quotes to McGrath of Harlow.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM

I have been an aviation junkie as long as I can remember. Like many, I was caught up in the "Space Race" and all that surrounded it. One of the highlights of my 12th year was shaking the hand of John Glenn after his Friendship 7 flight when he returned to his hometown of New Concorde, Ohio, only 30 miles from mine. I remember all of the Mercury and Gemini flights, the Apollo One fire, the Apollo missions, the first photos of "Earthrise," Armstrong and Aldrin........I hated to see it end. But by then I was more "mature" and caught up in other things. I suddenly found the space program to be the fault of everything wrong in America and a financial waste. It was hard to reconcile my political beliefs with space flight and all the economic drain it entailed.

One day, perhaps ten years later, I gave up trying to hate the space program. My logic and all was compromised.......So what? Damn if it hadn't been exciting....and it still was. As the shuttle came into being I was thrilled. This was a real aircraft......at least pretty close.....like the X-20 Dynasore project would have led to had it not been shut down when Mercury became the method of choice. Yeah, I know that money could be better spent perhaps, but where else was the thrill, the excitement, and the pioneering spirit as much to be found.

Just over 20 years ago in '81, I watched with great trepidation as Columbia under the command of an old space vet, John Young, made her first flight. Would all those systems and those screwy tiles work? I know the Saturn booster from Apollo accelerated faster, but watching that day it just seemed as though Columbia leaped off the pad as if to say. "I want to FLY!" Today, after performing flawlessly on her mission, I watched the break-up of her that took 7 valuable lives.

I am impressed with the way NASA is handling this and I am sure the families have great support. My heart goes out to them as well,as do most of yours. If you heard any of the crew interviews though, you know these folks were all committed to what they did, knew the risks, and considered them to be a part of their job. I'm sure none of them wanted to die, but I am equally sure that none of them would have traded their positions for anything else. We are still in the early days of space flight.....it is still not routine.

NASA will do what it must and I hope that they get the financial backing to do more. Someone said this is much like the early days of aviation or sailing and it's true. If we think of the Mercury program as the Wright Brothers, then Gemini and Apollo were the WWI years and up to Lindbergh's crossing of the Atlantic. About then, we really got things underway in commercial aviation and that's about where the shuttle is now.......like an old Ford Tri-Motor. It's time for a DC-2 and DC-3 to replace it. The solutions and new technologies need to happen. The crew of Columbia was counting on it I'm sure.

A very sad day for the families and friends, for NASA, and for many of us.................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM

Not to be too technical about it, but while on the subject of literary responses, and as mentioned in the other thread, it is worth remarking that Bush's speechwriter did another exemplary job at what must have been very short notice. Pitch perfect -- the use of linked metaphor (darkness, for example, at exactly the right place) alone is brilliantly apt; the quote from Isaiah, the movement into the names of the 7 linked to the names of the stars, and then linked to "safely home". Really first rate, especially given the "great communicator's shadow ("touched the face of God") over your shoulder.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:02 PM

Yes PT, I too give great credit to Bush's speechwriters and to Dubya himself for a message well delivered. The poetic reference which Reagan also used should be familiar to you Canadians......It's by a pilot named John Magee serving with the RCAF in WWII, written just a few days before he was killed. I think the poem is called "High Flight."

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Ed.
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

Thank you for your post, Catspaw


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:17 PM

The remarkable thing about the whole history of space exploration is how few disasters there have been, considering what is involved.

I hope that this sad accident isn't used as a reason for the USA to turn its back on space, or to totally militarise the space programme. Indeed, there is a logic in the argument that it'd be better to spend that effort and money on things closer to home, on Earth. But I've always felt that the possibility of moving out from Earth and seeing the planet as a small precious and vulnerable place, where humans have absurd quarrels which threaten to wreck it is perhaps a more realistic way of moving us forward.

I've got a peace badge with a picture of the Earth from space. I think that picture has maybe done more to help people recognise our unity than anything else in history.

If you think about the sad story of "the peace dividend", it is fairly clear that, if the money spent on space exploration was diverted, it wouldn't go to help the poor, it'd just end up with people who already have far more than is good for them. And the world as a whole would be poorer.

It's 17 years since the last space tragedy. Yes, it's sad, but exploration has always been dangerous, and when it takes its price, that's no reason to give up. It's a reason to learn what can be learned from what happened, and use that for the future.

As Joe Hill put it, in a rather different context "Don't mourn - organize."


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:18 PM

In Tribute:

"High Flight"

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

(John Gillespie Magee, Jr.)



Put the flag to half mast, it's time to play the blues.

Blues


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: bob schwarer
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:33 PM

My wife and I were coming home from the ballpark when I mentioned that we did not hear the sonic boom of the shuttle on its way to landing. Usually here in central FL we get the boom-boom about the time the shuttle lands. About the time I got the words out we heard on the radio of the loss. Eerie.

Sometimes the "boom" rattles the dishes. If you don't know of the landing it can shock you.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM

I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.

Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed a waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death.


Yeats


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM

The loss of seven explorers of space's dark reaches — shuttle commander Rick Husband, Michael Anderson, David Brown, Kalpana Chawla, Laurel Clark, William McCool and Ilan Ramon.
The stars that they reached for
are the stars they have now become.
Peace. Rustic


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM

The stars that they reached for are the stars they have now become.

A stupid and inaccurate thing to say, but I agree with the sentiment


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 07:58 PM

It is a misty evening in New York. The night after the Challenger blew up, it was pissing rain. I was sitting on the edge of a roof in Brooklyn with Tony T-Bags from Derry dangling our legs over an eight or nine floor drop to the ally, drinking from a gallon jug of cheep wine, passing it back and forth with Tony as he barfed between his legs into the ally, all the while both of us sobbing and saying "doggy fucking gone, doggy gone shuttle..." I have grown up a wee bit since then. Still very very sad.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM

So stand by your glasses steady,
And remember the men from the sky,
Here's to the dead already,
And three cheers for the next man to die


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,p.mitchell@mums
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM

I tuned into this event via mudcat. Much as the event happened. Sometimes that's what I find Mudcat most usefull for, bringing my attention to events that move me. In my small world that's a tribute to a community of folk people, keeping history alive, not just after the event but even as it happens.

So thanks to Max and his co' for that.

And thanks to you all that post.

I find the anger difficult. I find the trolls, looking to make their small point amongst a midst of (some times obviously) restrained people difficult. But that's just me.

But i have NO other vehicle for saying things like this to (at least some of) the world...

To those people of America and of Israel who choose to read and to care, I want to say sorry for your loss of heroes.

I believe we have all lost today.

Paul

(Just some bloke)


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM

And India, remember.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:33 PM

Blues=Life, thanks for that poem. I've searched for it for several years now. Is it a part of the Air Force Prayer? I think that was the poem that was read verbatim at my father's funeral.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:46 PM

Mary, read my post above his....It was written by a Canadian WWII pilot.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM

I came in from a day of errands to look back and see what the flap was about this morning. I didn't read the early posts closely enough to see the pot shot that "Guest--11:47" sent when I responded to someone else who wanted to turn this thread into a "grave site" of sorts with nothing but condolences posted. In this climate, it's all too normal that our thoughts spring instantly to possible related topics. The "we" someone else challenged is now apparent, I think.

As bits of news that represent themselves as "facts" come along and people want to post them to the list, it might be a good idea to first check them out. Two good places for debunking myths or clarifying information are About.com or do a careful search on Google.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:17 PM

I just saw Bush reading his remarks on one of the news specials. The complete text can be found in the OBIT thread.

I have to say, I found his "reading" ruined the words for me. I couldn't even tell where the quote from Isaiah ended, and Bush's words picked up again, and I had already read through the text numerous times!

Bush's delivery, IMO, was clumsy and wooden, and robbed the words of their power. I can't recall a worse presidential reader of speeches since LBJ, who was truly awful. But Bush's speechwriters are astoundingly good writers, as Bill Moyer regularly makes note of as well.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: jimmyt
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 11:29 PM

Johnny, Sorry I haven't had a chance to read your brilliance all day until now, but I was trying to expand my reading list as you recommended this morning so I could rub shoulders with geniuses like you.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:11 AM

CNN is now reporting that human remains believed to from the Columbia crew have been found in Hemphill, Texas.

Good night everyone.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:18 AM

As several of us have brought up "High Flight" on both threads, here's just a bit more on young John Magee, the author.

Born of an American father and English mother, John Gillespie Magee gave up studies at Yale University to join the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1940. An American serving with the Royal Canadian Air Force, he was born in Shanghai, China in 1922, the son of missionary parents, Reverend and Mrs. John Gillespie Magee; his father was an American and his mother was originally a British citizen.
He came to the U.S. in 1939 and earned a scholarship to Yale, but in September 1940 he enlisted in the RCAF and was graduated as a pilot. He was sent to England for combat duty in July 1941. He was qualified on and flew the Supermarine Spitfire.

He was stationed at RAF Wellingore, a satellite station of RAF Digby, with 412 Squadron RCAF when he wrote "High Flight". The poem encompasses his thoughts and feelings of the freedom of flight, and in particular, the exhilaration he felt after a flying in the Spitfire.

Flying fighter sweeps over France and air defence over England against the German Luftwaffe, he rose to the rank of Pilot Officer. At the time, German bombers were crossing the English Channel with great regularity to attack Britain's cities and factories. Although the dark days of the Battle of Britain were over, the Luftwaffe was still on the job of keeping up the pressure on British industry and the country.   On September 3, 1941, Magee flew a high altitude (30,000 feet) test flight in a newer model of the Spitfire V. As he orbited and climbed upward, he was struck with the inspiration of a poem -- "To touch the face of God."

Once back on the ground, he wrote a letter to his parents. In it he commented, "I am enclosing a verse I wrote the other day. It started at 30,000 feet, and was finished soon after I landed." On the back of the letter, he jotted down his poem, "High Flight".

Just three months later, on December 11, 1941 (and only three days after the US entered the war), Pilot Officer John Gillespie Magee, Jr., was killed. The Spitfire V he was flying, VZ-H, collided with an Oxford Trainer from Cranwell Airfield while over Tangmere, England. The two planes were flying in the clouds and neither saw the other. He was just 19 years old.

He is buried, along with other RCAF colleagues, in the graveyard in Scopwick village, 2 miles from RAF Digby, where, each year on Remembrance Sunday, personnel from RAF Digby join the members of Scopwick village church in remembering these airmen who died so far from home.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:51 AM

Aloha Mark; I agree with you.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

Spaw, I'm familiar with the poem, but somehow thought it had been incorporated in an official prayer. It's often quoted amonst aviators. (I shared PM's with Joe about this and Isaiah 40 with Joe several years ago.)

Mark, I know what you're saying, but I come from a different tradition, one that feels there is too little emphasis on "Basic Research." We can't always see the tangible and immediate results of the discovery of new knowledge, but thank goodness for visionaries who pursue this quest. From my experiences in a resin reseach lab which emphasized basic research and understanding of the phenomena which govern physical interactions - our (American) companies are getting their butts kicked by other companies in other countries who pursue new knowledge and patents - we are governed too much by the bean counters and short-range bottom-line managers. But I found that trying to explain this to a manager was like trying to justify the study of Shakespeare to a high school dropout. I get weary with the arguments.

Back to the astronauts -- I know of no more fitting words than the poem "High Flight."


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM

So what's the problem with Bush reading his remarks? Perhaps he wrote them down so he wouldn't stumble? Maybe he didn't want to break up or if he did, he had his notes to help him get back on course? That was a cheap shot about having to read his notes! I'm no Bush lover, but give the man some credit here. I listened to his speech as opposed to watching and I got a far different viewpoint.

Spaw, you expressed the thoughts of a lot of us who grew up in the space age. War was swirling around us and we were supposed to feel that everything the gov did was bad. Well, I was very confilcted because I saw the space flights as something that was an adventure into the future. Something to smile at! I too tried to hate the space race, but I couldn't. My heart soared when the moon landing was achieved. And who can forget the reading of Genesis at Christmas when the last astronauts to orbit the moon caught the slingshot to send them back to earth. Who can forget the first picture ever taken of an earth rise? Only the heartless and emotionless among us didn't both laugh and cry with hope then!

It is the great adventure, the great step into the unknown that facinates me. I care about Zimbabwians and Afghanis and every other people of the earth. In part because seeing us from space makes me feel more bound to their lives.

That's all I can write now.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM

I did this in 30 minutes.
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/schuttle2.jpg
Following Apollo
returning from near heaven
On the wings of Icarus
We salute the fallen seven




This one took 7 hours.
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/schuttlewindow2.jpg
"I can see the stars and earth reflected in my eyes"
Kalpana Chawla aboard Columbia


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:22 PM

Bush, like every other US president, reads speeches and public remarks written by his speechwriter(s) from a teleprompter, as Bush did yesterday. If acknowledging that fact is a cheap shot, than I'm guilty as charged.

I stated in two threads yesterday that I thought the speechwriter(s) had done a very good job with the speech. It was a beautifully written speech, just not beautifully delivered, IMO. I rather doubt I'm alone in my opinion of Bush as a mediocre public speaker at best.


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:05 PM

Nice artwork, Donuel.

I guess I am turning into a terrible cynic. I didn't feel Bush had any right to be making the remarks in his speech. It made him seem that much more of a hypocrite. That last line about them being safely home sucked, imo. All I could think of was the families who may not have been ready to hear such a trite platitude; the children who could plainly see their lost parent was not home. I know it was meant as a metaphor, but it was a cheap and easily wrought bit of tripe, imo.

kat


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:20 PM

This by Anne Lister seems appropriate
ICARUS
(Ann Lister)

I never wanted to fly high
I was too fond of walking
And when you said you'd touch the sky
I thought it was your way of talking
And then you said you'd build some wings
And find out how it could be done
But I was doubtful of everything
I never thought you'd reach the sun

You were so clever with your hands
I'd watch you for hours
With the glue and the rubber bands
Feathers and lace and flowers
And the finished wings they glowed so bright
Like some bird of glory
I began to envy you your flight
Like some old hero's story

You tried to get me to go with you
You tried always to dare me
But I looked at the sky so blue
I thought the height would scare me
But I carried your wings for you
Up the path to the cliff face
Kissed you goodbye and watched your eyes
Already bright with sunlight

It was wonderful at the start
To watch you soaring higher
There was a pain deep in my heart
The wings seemed tipped with fire
Like a seagull or a lark
Rising up forever
Like some ember or some spark
Rising from earth to heaven

Then I believed you'd touch the sun
I believed all you told me
Do a thing no man has ever done
You'd touch the stars to please me
But then I saw the white wings fail
Then I saw the feathers falter
Watched you drop like a ball of gold
Into the wide green water

Now some are born to fly high
And some are born to follow
Some are born to touch the sky
While some walk in the hollow
And as I watched your body fall
I knew that really you had won
For your grave was not the earth
But the reflection of the sun


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:22 PM

Spaw, Thanks for posting the history on Magee. For those not familiar with the poem, High Flight is much loved by those who fly, for it sums up the experience of flight in small planes perfectly. Because of that, it is often read in tribute of pilots who are lost. I raise a glass for our fallen explorers, our heros. What they do gives me hope for the future, and I hate to lose such intrepid souls.

Absent companions!

Blues


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Subject: RE: Space Shuttle Crash?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:18 AM

A very sad accident as many have said, nothing else, except that there are many more consequences than with a 'normal' train accident.

And there is nothing unexpected about this tragic (or should it be 'pathetic'?) loss in a statistical sense. The numbers I have read are that NASA expects 1 total loss for 50 to 75 flights. So two losses on 113 flight are well within the limits of expectation. Though these considerations do not help at all the relations whose grief I can feel.

Wolfgang


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