How to End Racism

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:40 PM

"you people"?

I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself, I just follow my conscience. It's the best I can do. And yes, I certainly do profit from it. I find it much easier to live with myself when I follow my conscience.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:25 PM

maybe a real space invasion with real things from another race,might make you people relize we are the human race,and you would put your petty bickering aside.
but i doubt it.
as much as you dwell on it,makes it sound like you are trying to cover up a guilty feeling,or maybe profit from it.
have a great day an god bless if your willing.
going to go play conspiracy theory.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:55 PM

Haven't you been convicted too?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:49 PM

I prefer excitement.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:38 PM

Boring is good, David. Some kinds of excitement I can do without.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:26 PM

El Grecko you live a very boring life debating the meaning of 'many'.lol.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:08 PM

"Many" is such a relative term... My son, when he was little, used "four" to mean "many", seeing that he could only count to four at the time.

"See Daddy, all those fish - there are four of them!"

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:06 PM

"...all I have to do is
Dream... dream-dream-dream..."

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM

haha, self-confessed nazi, i challenge you to find where i confessed to being a nazi? Well....?

And I don't think he'll convert any Mudcatter to voting for BNP

Actually i didn't need to convert, many of mudcatters already voted BNP in the last general election.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:39 AM

Just 'aving a larf, Paul. We know who DH is. And I don't think he'll convert any Mudcatter to voting for BNP. My view is: As long as he is spending time here unproductively, he is not spending it anywhere else... get my meanin'?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:32 AM

Yes, Gable was convicted of attempted burglary, in 1963: of the home of the Nazi "historian", David Irving. Good for him. Irving is now bankrupt after trying to sue academics who exposed him:
David Irving

And Hannam is a self- confessed nazi. We'd only just seen the back of MG too.

I think Mudcat should be ashamed of itself for giving this spreader of hate and destruction a platform to spout from. His politics are truly sick.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:44 AM

If anything, I assume they are anti-fascist, unless you consider fascism to be a race?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:33 AM

They hate hate. Ooohhh, scary, scary....

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:32 AM

Indeed they are. Or is your definition of racism only one way carol, i.e white on ethnic?

Searclight, run by a convicted burglar. Oh yes, lovely.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:21 AM

you have no idea who searchlight is, yet you quote then as a source, a hate-organisation is your source led by a convicted burlgar, and you use them as a source

Searchlight Magazine - a "hate-organization"?.

LOL indeed.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:12 AM

Put up a link to a source someone doesn't like, you mean?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:06 AM

Never mind, lesson learnt. I made the same mistake once too.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:04 AM

I didn't bother to check the rest of that site out because I have already read books on the subject and the information tallied. It's a link, not a source, I use books for that.
It came up in a google search. I did that because, frankly, some people might like to type up entire chapters of books, but I'm not one of them.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: DavidHannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:57 AM

you have no idea who searchlight is, yet you quote then as a source, a hate-organisation is your source led by a convicted burlgar, and you use them as a source. lol.

Next time, check the validity of your sources.

By all means, if you want to recommend a few books please do.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:54 AM

No idea who Searchlight is, but that page on early fascists in Britain is good enough. better than the historical articles on the BNP site.
I could recommend a few books if you'd like. Doubt you'd read them, probably bandy the word LIBERAL about.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: DavidHannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:50 AM

Well it is silly because you have no comprehension of the BNP, and your source for your opinion was the 'unbiased' hate group Searchlight, led by convicted burglar gerry gable.

Prior to the link i thought you were an intelligant person, but that link merely exposed your weakness in your thinking.

You are a web-surfer and sadly nothing much more.

As Ted once said, no original thought on the internet.

Basically, you lost. lol

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:43 AM

Ok, David, why is the link silly?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:24 AM

what guest?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: muppett
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:15 AM

Guest, it depended on the hypothectical situation and what hypothectical mood I was in and where I hypothectically was.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 07:02 AM

Aw, run out of non-sensical points to make, lolol, i wondered if you would resort to unintelligant posts with wierd links, and you did.

Thank you, i had a bet with another mudcatter that you would post a link.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 06:01 AM

Looks like the BNP is harking back to the first wave of British Fascists

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 05:38 AM

Don't have a clue what poverty is? Good one.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:15 AM

I mean, look at TV 'er pictures in a news magazine and you see kids in ther Middle Esat with "Air Jordon's" on their feet and McDonald's in the backdrounds...

Yes, but you are now reffering to economic effects of globalism, which although are interchangeble to some degree with multi-culturalism, are different. Your point relys on the opinion on whether someone who opposes multi-culturalism supports a more protectionist economy, whether this is the case is hard to tell.

Yeah, maybe the 50's or 60's or 40's fir that matter, is waht you romanticize over but the world has moved on since those days and we are all havin' to cope...

I certainly, nor do the BNP romantisize over the 40s, 50s, and especially the 60s, lol, simply because there is no doubt that times have never been perfect in this country.

However, times were more stable in some ways. We did not have the regular full size riots to the scale we see now caused by ethnic minorities feeling somehow deprived.

Sociologists blame poverty and deprivation on the cause of ethnic riots, but let us face facts, these naturalised people don't have a clue what poverty is. In the 1930's, our people faced a huge depression not seen since in this country, did we riot? No, did we throw petrol bombs at our police force? God no. We marched, we petitioned, etc, but we did not riot.

SO there is no excuse for the unstable ethnic riots we see take place.

Racism, I guesxs, is a coping mechanism but not a realistic one since one day the wall will crack an' then you'll have to deal with it... Sure, there a re lots of folks who have moved to very remote places to live with folks "like themselves"... They are holed up in remore mountain communes in Wyoming and, hey, bless their hearts...

Again, if by racism you mean a person believing they are superior to another race, then i agree, it must be some sort of coping mechanism, but if you refer to people wanting to love amongst their own kind, then it is not racism, but the most natural thing in the world.

But part of this process is accepting that we have no reason to think that we are superior to anyone else and the by-product of that acceptence is that we come to appreciate our differences as well as our similarities...

When we get to that level then the differences will not seem all that different at all...

Yes, but the above model is reliant upon all peoples of all backgrounds accepting this model, this is clearly never going to happen, unless you live in a liberal fantasy world, but in the real world, when in Oldham, there are streets i can't walk down for abuse i recieved for simply walking down an area that wasn't 'mine'.

What you are saying is correct, we should accept these differences and appreciate them, but i believe that is only possible through mutual understanding and respecting of our respective cultural borders.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:32 PM

Wow. Thanks Bobert.

In my own case, "living with my own", which I take to mean "living with those closest to me" (my family), means living with people who are of European ancestry (northern Europe, western Europe, eastern Europe, and southern Europe), African ancestry, Native American ancestry, Jewish ancestry, and Asian ancestry, because my family has people with all of those backgrounds.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:21 PM

Opps....

How'd that happen???

Yeah, this is the real world... Deal with it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:21 PM

Racism is learned behaviour, all right. You want to end it? Don't teach it or demonstrate it to your kids or to anyone else.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:18 PM

BTW, for the record, ahhhh, there isn't a more open minded person in Mudville than CarolC... Okay, maybe a couple folks up to her level but none surpass her open-mindedness....

Sorry if open mindedness is gettin' in the way of some folks agendas of "livin' with their own"...

I mean, get real here...

Open yer own minds to the realities.... This is the rea

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 08:59 PM

an carol i won't tell you what to think,just wish you would open your mind to the possiblty of other explanations.other than it is the amaricans fault or the western worlds responsabilty.

You are making the assumption that I have not already done so. And your assumption is incorrect.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 08:52 PM

There's one thing that you have not taken into account, David... Yeah, you'd love to just be with yer own but, hey, in this increasingly tribalized world we live in, livin' with one's own is no longed a vailble option...

I mean, look at TV 'er pictures in a news magazine and you see kids in ther Middle Esat with "Air Jordon's" on their feet and McDonald's in the backdrounds...

Yeah, maybe the 50's or 60's or 40's fir that matter, is waht you romanticize over but the world has moved on since those days and we are all havin' to cope...

Racism, I guesxs, is a coping mechanism but not a realistic one since one day the wall will crack an' then you'll have to deal with it... Sure, there a re lots of folks who have moved to very remote places to live with folks "like themselves"... They are holed up in remore mountain communes in Wyoming and, hey, bless their hearts...

Bottom line, there ain't 'nuff Wyoming's to go around so fir the rest it's gonna be the painfull "meltin' pot" which, I personally don't think is painfull at all but very exciting and mind-openin'...

But part of this process is accepting that we have no reason to think that we are superior to anyone else and the by-product of that acceptence is that we come to appreciate our differences as well as our similarities...

When we get to that level then the differences will not seem all that different at all...

Like I have said before, it is those in power who use these differneces to keep folks fight' amongst themselves while they fleece us...

Bobert
\

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 08:27 PM

i still believe that for the most part,racism exist as we see it because of people useing it as a way to gain or keep control/power over selected groups of people.mainly for there own gain in what ever form they desire.
prime example to mind,hitler,and the german distrust of the jew.
ben laden and the muslim distrust of the west.
they both could speak withpompous conviction,which is so much more convincing than reason to most people.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Shakey
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 08:15 PM

This thread was weaved between colour, race, culture and religion, and Carol is right to try and get definitions for racism and race.

I believe that colour prejudice is simple illogical, it makes no sense whatsoever. However that some people, whichever side of the fence they sit, favour one culture or one religion is a standpoint that can be debated. Cultures and religions have belief systems, in the case of religion these are, unless I've missed something pretty spectacular, purely faith based and are therefore not only open to criticism but demand it.

Culture is also a minefield, for one thing culture's are not static; Victorian England is not the same as England today. Would we want to go back, well maybe a few folk would but not many I'm sure. So culture's are different not only between each other but also within each other. If you accept this, which I do, then it's perfectly sensible to have an opinion as to which culture you think is best.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 08:15 PM

sorry McGgrath.i spend most of my time running a lathe or mill,sometimes welder,only play on this thing for a few min. a day.
i am a one finger typeist
an carol i won't tell you what to think,just wish you would open your mind to the possiblty of other explanations.other than it is the amaricans fault or the western worlds responsabilty.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:38 PM

xenophobia - distrust of outsiders and strangers - may be natural. "Racism" - where people see differences of colour and such like between their neighbours as defining them as strangers and outsiders - definitely isn't. The concept of "race" is an artificial construct. There are diferences between people, and they can lead to problems, but they don't particularly coincide with "race".

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:21 PM

When my father turned seventy, we organised a big party for him to celebrate. He was talking to me about it before hand, and asked me if I remembered his friend Bob. Of course I did.

when i was growing up, every Saturday afternoon during the football season, Dad used to take me to watch the Aussie Rules football (Ainslie Football Club) in Canberra and he and Bob used to lean against the fence watching the football, while I sat in the stand with Bob's daughter Auriel and talked all afternoon.

Before the party, Dad asked me if I remembered anything special about Bob, and I said no. He smiled and told me that Bob was Aboriginal. When Bob arrived, I looked and realised that he was, and that all those years I hadnt even noticed.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:16 PM

quite a few peope on here seem to have forgotten what racism is.

Look in a dictionary. It is a belief "that one race is superior to another."

Now define "race" for us, AB.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:13 PM

"I would go as far as to say that young children are, in fact, colour blind. Racism is learned."

I agree.

Personal racism is learned and is supported by institutional racism in the mass media, educational systems, health care systems, juvenile justice systems, adult criminal justice systems, housing sytems, etc, etc etc.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Shakey
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:06 PM

There are, alas, no easy answers.

The mother of my son's girlfriend, who is Pakistani, thinks that pakistani girls who date white boys are whores (her words not mine). My son was also attacked in the street by a group of asians because he had an asian girl on his arm.

While I have heard it many times on TV etc, the only time I have heard the word "nigger" used in my presence was by a well educated pakistani man when he was referring to West Indians.

I certainly don't agree that children more easily mix with their "own colour", my kids never had a problem, I would go as far as to say that young children are, in fact, colour blind. Racism is learned.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:55 PM

What of your classic approach, screaming LIBERAL, LIBERAL, LIBERAL (guess MARXIST is out of fashion)?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:45 PM

A sensible post AB.

The only difference is that i don't think, as your example illustrated, that childrens natural instinct to mix with their own is racist, it is as you natural, and most children, like most adults bear no hatred towards people of other ethnic groups, but merely feel most comfortable amongst their own.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,AB
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

quite a few peope on here seem to have forgotten what racism is.

Look in a dictionary. It is a belief "that one race is superior to another."

The thread in entitled "How to end racism." Racism will always be present eventually as long as their is a multiCULTURAL society. Children at play schools comment on other peoples skin colour and mix with their own colour more as it is natural, that is with NO external influence. Given time, racism will occur. It is a natural feeling.

"Beating the shit out of racists" as one post above put it will only cause people to bottle up their frustrations/fears about other races, and that is more dangerous.

We need honest debate without the fear of being branded racists etc
We need one culture. British.

all the best
AB

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:30 PM

Poor Paul, unable to join in an intelligant conversation like most, resorts to classic liberal bashing, screaming..."hater, hater, hater".

Paul, your post speaks volumes about your iq.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:28 PM

lolol

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:39 PM

I rather take that as a way of confirming that Paul was on target.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:00 PM

You are too late Paul, that link has been posted, eeeh, what now, say 30 times. lololol.

I'm glad you believe all you read in the media, you must be very content in your life.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:52 AM

If you are going to blather on, get the details straight. I know, hard work, it might involve some thought and maybe reading a book or two.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:41 AM

By the way, is our DH this convict
?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:40 AM

Returning to the point of the thread, i think the important thing is that people share the same goal. But often we differ on how to get there.

My opinion is that some sort of harmony and tolerance can only be achieved through mutually respecting each others respective boundaries, culture, identity and rights, but all the latter must be seperate from each others respectively.

I believe in respecting the rights of Muslims to engage in their own faith as they see wish, but they should engage that faith and all its consequences in their own society, and not ours.

Again, we should not try to impose our values, such as the case of the US and UK illegally entering Iraq in an evil war that cost innocent lives on both sides.

Many people believe in tolerance through respecting each others rights individally but seperatly, some believe that tolerance can only be achieved through a more multi-cultural society.

I think time will tell which model is accurate.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:33 AM

Anything rather than answer any point eh!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:31 AM

A mere matter of accuracy. It might be, in your case.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:22 AM

Oh dear. How difficult it is.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:11 AM

No.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: DavidHannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:07 AM

non-settlement colony

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:03 AM

India was not a colony.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 09:46 AM

So DH, you claim to hate colonialism. I assume then that this means that you would support Britain's pulling out of places like the Falklands and N.Ireland because they should not have been there in the first place, but colonised them at some point in history? And the same for the white South Africans (back to Britain and the Netherlands)?

Or does your anti-colonialism have a different flavour?

I believe that in the modern world any colonial agenda is wrong. I do not feel some overbearing guilt about our colonial past however, though clearly right and wrongs took place. Wrongs often included brutalization of the native peoples, but rights often included the improving of conditions for the host peoples, such as Africa etc.

As for Northern Ireland, the question is too broad. Northern Ireland has voted overwhelmingly to stay British. As has the Falklands.

Do you withdraw against the wishes of the native people? It is a tricky one.

It is a different matter for other former colonial terrorities, such as India, when the majority, not all, but the majority wanted independence.

That is the type of colonialism i disagree with, where the ruling power stays against the wishes of the people.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM

this may be a trivial point,but i really wish that jpk could discover the shift key.in fact i see from that last post that he or she has done that,but not for the start of sentences.putting spaces in,after full stops and commas,would be helpful too.it makes it a lot easier to read when that is done.i think this post demonstrates that.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:01 PM

You don't know what I think, jpk. All you do is project onto me what you think I ought to think based on your bigoted stereotypes.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:57 PM

you know carol it was people and politicans like minded as you.that lead to the ending in nam,in which 50,000 plus americans died for nothing.
if we did as you wish then those that have passed in the mid east will have been for nothing as well.
right or wrong we are there,finish it with the outcome WE want.
if we had used you reasoning in ww2 hitler would be in power still.
we would have stopped when he said,i will leave you alone,if you leave me alone.
look what happened to the russians in the same deal.
yea lets say we are sorry,turn tail and run.while they keep on coming.
nough said it ain't worth trying to talk to a closed mind.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:45 PM

sorry carol,no others veiws to parrot just my own

If by "parrot" you mean repeating without doing any real thinking, I guess I would have to agree with you on that one.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:29 PM

as i said a ways back,if you would stop dwelling on it,and giving race so much attention,it would gradually fade into to netherland.as long as you put so damn much focus on it,and hype it,it will remain as a very devisive tool to be turned upon the gen population by a small number who wish to be your masters,and you are plaing right to them a letting them.
sorry carol,no others veiws to parrot just my own.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:29 PM

It is and an interesting aside is that the caste system wasn't so rigid until the British bureacrcay was firmly in place, making it easier to keep records.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:05 PM

...which means, of course, that Hinduism is, in and of itself, a multicultural religion.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM

Even trying to define "Hindu" poses serious problems for the purposes of a discussion like this one. Until fairly recently, the term "Hindu" simply meant anyone living on one particular side of the Indus River. The religion we now refer to as "Hindu" is really a polyglot of a whole bunch of different indigenous religions of a whole bunch of different groups of people indegenous to various parts of what is now India.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:48 PM

David, you said, "I myself do not support colonialism, and disagree with any native peoples becoming a minority to the guest peoples."

I guess that means you think all of those with European ancestry should leave America and return it to the Indigenous People.

What about Spain?

What about Ireland?

What about Mexico?

What about most of the world?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:25 PM

So DH, you claim to hate colonialism. I assume then that this means that you would support Britain's pulling out of places like the Falklands and N.Ireland because they should not have been there in the first place, but colonised them at some point in history? And the same for the white South Africans (back to Britain and the Netherlands)?

Or does your anti-colonialism have a different flavour?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 11:07 AM

Your entire definition of native Indians is wrong.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM

Thank you, well i do have a problem with it.

I myself do not support colonialism, and disagree with any native peoples becoming a minority to the guest peoples.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 10:16 AM

If you want me to answer your silly hypothetical situation, no I don't have a problem with it.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 09:59 AM

Le Scarmaouche, quite simply, do you have a problem with the Hindu-Indo-Aryan majority becoming a minority in place of a white minority in India?

In other thread you mention me not answering, to which i apologized and have asked you to repeat them so i can answer, but you are trying to avoid this question through fear or inability to answer?

AGAIN!
Le Scarmaouche, quite simply, do you have a problem with the Hindu-Indo-Aryan majority becoming a minority in place of a white minority in India?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:36 AM

BTW, things in India changed for the British once they stopped being multicultural.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:32 AM

India has always been bigger than you give it credit for. Your 80% Hindu, Indo-Aryan is a gross oversimplification.
They have as many different cultures as England does accents.
Even the Indo-Aryan thing is disputed from an historical angle.
If I'm going to have a problem with your hypothetical situation, I should have a problem with the Indo-Aryans turning the Dravidians and Bhils into minorities.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:21 AM

You are afraid. Your liberal credentials do not allow you to answer.

Do you deny India is 80% Hindu? and indo-aryan in ethnicity? if you can give me a better definition in relation to the question by all means do.

It is a simple question:

So, do you have a problem with say...India becoming a native-indian minority, (i.e Indian as in Indo-Aryan, Hindu Majority) country and a majority white nation?

C'mon, allay your fears of 'offending' just this once and answer a question that i know scares you, but the answer is on the tip of your tongue.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:01 AM

No, even if it were a real situation, it's none of my business. The definition you gave is still very poor and shows up your ignorance.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:57 AM

David will you please define a majority white nation?

You also said, "Wow, it must be tough feeling so much guilt for crime of born British that you have no problem with natives in this country becoming a minority?"

I can hardly unravel that, but I'll try. Do you mean, '...for the crime of being born British...?"

I'm not British and I don't feel any guilt.

Your assumptions are astounding!

Are you saying that anyone born in Britain is a native but only if they are White?

Please tell me you're not a racist.

Bye

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:38 AM

haha, you are frightened to answer.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:23 AM

Your definition of native Indian won't fly. Frankly it's not up to me to have a problem with it.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:14 AM

So, do you have a problem with say...India becoming a native-indian minority, (i.e Indian as in Indo-Aryan, Hindu Majority) country and a majority white nation?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:12 AM

What if they're not of Hindu persuasion, Guest?

I think he was reffering the question in regard to the majority population to simplify matters. India is 80% ish majority Hindu.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:55 PM

"O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us - he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." (Psalm 137)

"Moses was angry with them. What means it, he asked, that you have spared the womenfolk...All the males must be killed, even the children, and all women that have had commerce with men; the young girls and all the women that are still virgin you may keep for yourselves" (Numbers 31)

"Then the Israelites went back and made an end of the city. In that day all the citizens of Hal perished, men and women, to the number of twelve thousand." (Josue 8)

"The Lord gave Israel mastery, so they put all its inhabitants to the sword, sparing none...With the Lord God of Israel for his warrant he left no trace of the folk who dwelt there, but killed every living thing that was to be found betwen Cades-Barne and Gaza. Josue 10.

And there's plenty more where that came from.

But if you take that kind of thing as an indication of what Judaism and Christianity are really about, you'd be distorting the true messaage of those religions.

And so would those Jews and Christians who at various times have done precisely that, and acted in accordance with those kinds of texts (think Srbrenica, think Deir Yassin). In much same way as those Muslims who distort their own religion into a message of hate.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:03 PM

Guest, out go the Dravidians, Telugu, Assamese, Bhils and many others.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:00 PM

What if they're not of Hindu persuasion, Guest?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:48 PM

Indo-Aryan, probably of Hindu persuasion.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:39 PM

Define native Indians.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:31 PM

So, do you have a problem with say...India becoming a native-indian minority country and a majority white nation?

Is that a yes or no?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:29 PM

India was far more accepting of different groups.
Better a white minority than a nation led by the Black Shorts.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:17 PM

Thats right, David, I have no problem with a white minority in Britain or in any other country.

I answered your question, now you should answer mine.

Do you think Ms Jean is a good choice to act as the Queen's representative in Canada?

Wow, it must be tough feeling so much guilt for crime of born British that you have no problem with natives in this country becoming a minority?

So, do you have a problem with say...India becoming a native-indian minority country and a majority white nation?

I don't know much about Ms Jean, so i could not possibly comment. I personally don't have a problem with it of course. My personal opinion however is that I think the whole position should be abolished; there is no need for a Governor General.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 02:10 AM

no carol no fit,just if you would read something besides that which may support your veiw and no other

You don't know what I read and don't read.

And you are blaming a lot of people for things that are being done by only a very small number of people who belong to the same religion. This is most certainly hate-mongering.

How about if we hold you personally responsible for all of the lynchings of African American men that have been committed by White, Christian men in the US south? That would be the equivalent of what you are doing with regard to Muslims.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 01:14 AM

Now for Critisizing Islam, Carol would have it that i am a 'hate-monger'

No, you are spreading hate by incorrectly and consistantly saying that "Islam is" anything at all. Because it is not. The only thing you can say about Islam as a whole is that it is a religion that has as many different levels of liberalism and fundamentalism, backwardness and forwardness as any other religion. Any other all inclusive discriptors you put on it are lies and they do promote hatred and ignorance.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 09:19 PM

"I don't think that wanting to live amongst your own people is racist" (David's above post).

I rest my case...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:52 PM

no carol no fit,just if you would read something besides that which may support your veiw and no other,kind of like the typ bible or koran or whichever thumper,you only parrot the parts that fit your veiw and ignore the rest.
and i suppose that i should parrot some tome on the subject of british moslims,and their anti british bs,and cry because they now won't to kick a few out for the hate mongering,the fact being that they are rabbid dogs willing to bite the hand that took them in and feed them,guess i will have to parrot it hear since you will fail to read it else where for yourself,[but i won't]but please tell me the brit's do not won't a few of THEM gone,that would be so racist,they only bit a little bit.
have a good day any way and god bless.
oh yes,am i now the hate monger that mg was,that what you are tring to lable me as.least i am not going around tring to appologize for things that need no apploges,unless your caught in the your a victem/i'm a victem trap.
and it sounds like you are,always some one else to blame.
yeap,they ain't terrorist,we are,even if they did it,it is our fault.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:25 PM

Does the colour matter if the culture is kept?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:07 PM

Thats right, David, I have no problem with a white minority in Britain or in any other country.

I answered your question, now you should answer mine.

Do you think Ms Jean is a good choice to act as the Queen's representative in Canada?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:38 PM

So if you don't care about the colour of the minority in Britain, you don't have a problem with a white-minority Britain in that case.

Thank you, that is all i wanted to know.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:02 PM

David - I don't care about the colour of the minority in Britain.

The colour of one's skin should not be the deciding factor of what constitutes good leadership.

Do you think Ms Jean is a good choice to act as the Queen's representative in Canada?

BTW - Multiculturalism in England will never work if people like you continue to exploit those who fear and hate those who are different.

Thank goodness most people just want to live in peace with their neighbors.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 02:58 PM

You can't do that Chris, because you would be accused of racism. I mean, imagine beating up Muslim racists? Or in fact any racists of the non-white variety. You would be racist.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 02:47 PM

How to end racism? Beat the shit out of racists.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 02:44 PM

Colour is important to peacocks

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 01:44 PM

so thats a yes you do support a white-minority Britain

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 12:51 PM

"Do you believe in a white-minority Britain?"

Is that the fear that drives your campaign, David?

I guess you didn't bother to read the article about Canada's new Governor General that I posted above. It speaks volumes about a government that has embraced multi-culturalism.

To answer your question above - I would rather have Ms Jean as Governor General than another dour, old white man.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:13 AM

Does anyone read Doonesbury? Many years ago, one of the "black" characters had just had a child (actually, his wife had) and he and one of the white characters were watching her in a crib or baby carriage or something, being amazed and hopeful, and talking about giving her a good life. One of them says to the other(I imagined them whispering) "Let's not teach her about"(he spells it out)"r*a*c*i*s*m*." The other one answers, "I'm hip."    Tw

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:02 AM

I agree Bobad, racism is a killer, white and ethnic alike die from racism.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:01 AM

I don't believe however AB that wanting to live amongst your own people and to want better exclusively for your people is racist! It is natural, but not racist. Racism is when you hate someone else for being different to you. I don't believe in hating anyone for being different, but i do accept that we are inherently different and each should respect each-others right to self-determination, and to have ones own culture, identity and freedoms as a people.

it is only globalist governments that have pushed for multi-ethnic states, it serves big business.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:00 AM

DON'T FEED THE RACISTS!!!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,AB
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:56 AM

racism is natural and will allways occur if given time.

this "education" that we speak of HAS to be indoctrination for it to work.

Racism must be vital for our survival as a species, or it would not happen. It has been instilled in us over thousands etc of years.

Everything, EVERYTHING we do comes down to animal instincts and our survival.

Racism is a part of that, hard to accept, but fact

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 10:38 AM

Not at all, DH. If you were arguing that multiculturism was the casue, you could even argued that way over the black on white killing of Anthony Walker. The fact that you had to make a long list of black on white crimes speaks volumes about you and the BNP"

Hmm, so alarming people to the huge numbers of white folk killed by racists speaks volumes about the BNP? Good, i hope it does. Truth is truth.

Your case is gettin' weaker with every attempt to strengthen it... Case studies, while individually may hold someone's interest, are not, in themselves proof of a larger trend...

Well is killing Anthony Walker a racist murder? Of course it is, if the motives were racial. Does the killings of the numerous poor people i referred to above make them racist killings? Of course when the motive is racial.

My case...i have no case, only to say that multi-culturalism is forever doomed and always strife-ridden. Are people like me to blame? Well, presumably, people like me, who question the validity of a multi-cult society are small in numbers, etc, so it is certainly not people like me, it is society, because society will always rebel against enforced tyranny.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,363750,00.html
"Anthony Browne
Sunday September 3, 2000
The Observer

Whites will be an ethnic minority in Britain by the end of the century. Analysis of official figures indicate that, at current fertility rates and levels of immigration, there will be more non-whites than whites by 2100.

It would be the first time in history that a major indigenous population has voluntarily become a minority, rather than through war, famine or disease. Whites will be a minority in London by 2010"

Do you believe in a white-minority Britain?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 09:05 AM

Ever hear of Chinese handcuffs, David???

Your case is gettin' weaker with every attempt to strengthen it... Case studies, while individually may hold someone's interest, are not, in themselves proof of a larger trend...

Anyone who has taken college statistics will tell ya that...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:53 AM

black on white killing of Anthony Walker

white on black of course.

Oh and if I am disturbed, on second sorts, yes I am - by racists.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:51 AM

Not at all, DH. If you were arguing that multiculturism was the casue, you could even argued that way over the black on white killing of Anthony Walker. The fact that you had to make a long list of black on white crimes speaks volumes about you and the BNP.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:43 AM

Nice list DH. Keep it up. It only serves to show what a racist you are.

You are one sick person if you think racist murders of white people makes the person detailing them a racist.

By your reckoning, anyone who used the Stephen Lawrence case as an example of racism is by their own default a 'racist'?

You are disturbed.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:36 AM

That stung, David, eh? Otherwise why produce such a long list of black-on-white crimes in reaction to my one white-on-black, as if either could justify the other?....." "The way I see it, you just shot yourself another dozen times in the foot.

Shot myself in the foot? Not really, i gave my opinion on the evil murder of Anthony Walker below eariler, i said killing someone for the colour of their skin is sick.See below. Do you agree?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 01:32 PM

Agree EL Greko, as harrowing as the case of Kriss Donald who was murdered and tortured in the back of a car and set on fire and body dumped. It was an Muslim on white attack. Killing someone for the colour of their skin is sick, sick and sick.

One certainly does not justify the other. How could they, both are a product of a failing society. What you don't understand, therefore i will explain it to you, is that the BNP provides a legal political outlet for people not happy with multi-culturalism to express their feelings. That is where people should express their opinions, and that is what they do.

The racist scum who killed Kriss Donald or Anthony Walker are in a different league, and under a BNP government would quite likely face the death penalty.

They are all equally despicable, and all caused by one culture wishing to impose itself on others, or wishing to be by itself = i.e. monoculturalism.

Ah, now here we agree. Agreed, one culture will always wish to impose itself as the dominant one, that is human nature, and the nature of a nation with a strong sense of heritage and culture and identity, Muslims have this strong culture, so did we once, though it is now slowly been eroded. Even the attack on public music/singing in our folks clubs which are now curbed through criminal taxes are there to put off that semblance of British Folk History.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:26 AM

Nice list DH. Keep it up. It only serves to show what a racist you are.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:20 AM

That stung, David, eh? Otherwise why produce such a long list of black-on-white crimes in reaction to my one white-on-black, as if either could justify the other? They are all equally despicable, and all caused by one culture wishing to impose itself on others, or wishing to be by itself = i.e. monoculturalism. The way I see it, you just shot yourself another dozen times in the foot.

Multiculturalism does not breed crime, it breeds tolernace. That tolerance may occasionally be taken advantage of by the monoculturalists, but it certainly does not create them.

Dress it any way you like, David, you're a long way from being persuasive.

Must try harder.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:08 AM

BTW David - What makes you so different than the Immans who preach hatred? Why don't you try doing something positive so that people can attempt to live in harmony?

Well, for one i don't preach hatred. That ok? And..i don't rally for murder, terrorism, etc? That ok?

What a silly question.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:05 AM

When folks here pointed out that the Bible indeed had some less than flattering parts you dismissed those arguements...

I'm still waiting for those biblical quotes.

As i said, the Bible makes some very outdated references, and is barbaric in someways, however, Western Christianity has progressed, become tolerant, adapteds its message to wider audience. It does not preach quotes like:

Qur'an 8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."


All i am saying is that Islam, as a faith needs to progress to a more modern and tolerant standing. It is currently regressive. Now for Critisizing Islam, Carol would have it that i am a 'hate-monger', but in fact critical analysis is what makes us a good society. The freedom to speak out on matters than each person thinks warrants opinion.

Also, bear in mind, that threads such as these may not be permitted in the near future, all in the name of multi-culturalism and equality, we will see how many of us like having our freedom curtailed then.

I expect better understanding of his mother tongue from a monoculturalist, David. Moral responsibility is what I referred to, not committing murder itself. The simple, and unavoidable, moral responsibility for spreading the hate that results in the axe being buried in Anthony Walker's skull.

Perhaps you did not instigate the events that resulted in that murder. Perhaps you never even met those that committed it. But you do spread the messages on which their hate is based. So, wash all you like, fella - this one doesn't come off your hands.

Erm..No. Equally, i could say you, the pro-multiculturalist, were responsible for the deaths of Kriss Donald, a white lad murdered by Muslim racists. Here are just a few. In fact, i do blame the pro-multiculturalists, so wash your hands all you like, fella, but these don't come off your hands.

Fred Carter 64, 13 July 1993 New Cross, South London. Battered to the ground, kicked and jumped on in a lift by a black named Junior Samuel.
MURDERED! Top

Mark Sharp 39, 1993 Luton, Bedfordshire. A family man killed in a road rage attack by Asians. The suspected killer, Abdul Abedin, fled the country to Bangladesh which has no extradition treaty with Britain. A warrant for his arrest was issued but a Bangladeshi High Commission spokesman said "We have no extradition treaty with Britain. It can only be done on goodwill now. It depends on how serious the British government is."
MURDERED! Top

Annie Castle 74, 22 August 1993 Bethnal Green, East London. Mrs Castle was a great-grandmother who had lived in the East End all her life. One night a Negro broke into her flat and tied up her friend Billy Bryan and tore the rings off her fingers, she suffered a heart attack and died on the spot.
MURDERED! Top

Billy Bryan 71, 22 August 1993Bethnal Green, East London. Mr Bryan had been staying with Mrs Castle on the night that Black intruder entered her flat. Elderly Mr Bryan was found the next morning lying on the floor, dead with his hands and feet bound. He had died of a massive heart attack. Police never found the black murderer.
MURDERED! Top

PC Patrick Dunne 44, 20 October 1993 Clapham. Local Clapham community officer PC Patrick Dunne was attending a minor domestic disturbance across the street at 28 Cato Road when he heard the sound of gunfire. As he went outside to investigate he was shot once in the chest. Three blacks left the scene laughing and firing shots into the air in triumph. He was pronounced dead on arrival at St. Thomas's Hospital.
MURDERED! Top

Philip Gosling 13, February 1994 Handsworth, Birmingham. Young Philip was the only white boy in his class, and was one of only five whites out of 500 at Handsworth Wood Boys' school. He was constantly racially bullied and had been burned on the neck with a match and threatened with a knife. He was chased into the path of a van by a gang of Asians from the school and killed.
MURDERED! Top

Emmanuel Hand 35, 15 May 1994 Holloway Tavern, Holloway Road. London N7. Warren Mathurin (also known as Warren Desmangles, now 43), of Jamaican parents, was sitting at the bar and insulting bar staff and asked to leave. He ran home, returning with a knife with a 9-inch blade and loudly challenged the Ulsterman landlord to come outside. Emmanuel did and Mathurin stabbed him three times in the heart. As Emmanuel was carried to the ambulance the already over-powered Mathurin taunted him "I warned you Manny, I warned you."
MURDERED! Top

Richard Everitt 15, August 1994 Kings Cross London NW1. Schoolboy known as a gentle giant attacked by a gang of Bengalis (East Pakistanis). Stabbed to death. Main suspects helped to escape to Bengal by their families and community. One gang member in prison for assault, an active 'Justice for Kings Cross One' campaign operating to get him released. Warrants still in operation for the murderers. Richard's family refused admittance to Bengali protest meeting in Camden Town Hall, trying to speak on Richard's behalf.
MURDERED! Top

Leslie Watkinson 66, 9 December 1994 Peckham, South London. Former Salvation Army major killed for his pension by three black youths, ran away shouting "I bust his head." Killers never found.
MURDERED! Top

Frank Dempsey 56, 7 February 1995South London. Had pleurisy, spat on ground, passing black youth turned round shouting abuse and stabbed him. Killer never found.
MURDERED! Top

Brian Harvey 31, 1 August 1998 Walthamstow, East London. Brian was playing pool in the Churchill snooker club with his brother, when an Asian in his mid 20s, in an unprovoked attack, slashed him across his jugular vein. Police described it as an execution-style killing.
MURDERED! Top

Peter Harvey 26, 1 August 1998 Walthamstow, East London. Peter was eating at the bar of the snooker club with his girlfriend watching his brother Brian enjoy a game of pool. When the Asian slashed his brother, Peter went to his assistance and was also cut across the jugular vein. Both men where described as decent and hard working and devoted to their elderly widowed mother.
MURDERED! Top

Winifred Sills 79, 1 May 2000 Manor Park, East London. Miss Sills was returning home from a trip to the shops, using a walking frame as she was very frail. A 15 year old 6ft tall Asian hit her from behind for her handbag, which contained less than a pound. She hit her head against a car as she fell to the ground and went into a coma later that day. She never regained consciousness and died two weeks later at Newham General Hospital from a massive brain haemorrhage. The Asian murderer bragged, laughed and joked about the attack and got a short sentence for manslaughter.
MURDERED! Top

Elizabeth Amlot 39, 1 February 2001 Woodside Park, North London. Miss Amlot was returning from a New year party when Turkish Kurd asylum- seeker Sertan Balci dragged her into an alley, punched her to the ground and repeatedly kicked her. She died a month later in hospital. After his trial it was discovered that Balci had carried out a series of sex ambushes.
MURDERED! Top

Daisy Fenton 88, 30 March 2001 South London. Mugged and knocked to the ground for £2.00's worth of groceries. Black Michael Manning got 7 years for killing 4ft 10ins tall, six & half stone Daisy, who needed the aid of a walking stick. He left her with 5 broken ribs, fractures to the nose, cheek, arm and breast bone. She suffered for three days before she died.
MURDERED! Top

Rosie Ross 16, 12 May 2001 Birmingham city centre. Rosie a policeman's daughter was stabbed to death by a mad Asian Inderjit Kainth.
MURDERED! Top

Hilda Lockert 86,15 May 2001 Brixton, South London. Mrs Lockert was hurled down the stairs of her block by two black youths, who mugged her for £15 and her bus pass. She had been mugged on her estate six times before.
MURDERED! Top

Anne Cypher 42, 19 May 2001 Wandsworth, South London. Anne, a mother of three, was working as a manageress of Players Snooker Club. One evening Negro crack addict Robert Alleyne entered the club and savagely bludgeoned her to death with a bar stool, after which he stole the £200 float from the till. She received 19 injuries to her head and body. Amanda Clarke was also fatally wounded (see separate entry). Three days later Alleyne hung himself in his flat. Good riddance.
MURDERED! Top

Amanda Clarke 32, 26 May 2001 Wandsworth, South London. Amanda was a friend of Anne Cypher and herself a mother of two teenage children. Negro villain Robert Alleyne, 36, also bludgeoned her in the robbery of the Players Snooker Club, where she was found lying in the foyer. She died in hospital of a fractured skull seven days after the attack.
MURDERED! Top

Ross Parker 17, 23 September 2001 Peterborough, Cambridgeshire. Kicked and stabbed to death by at least eight Asians, by the time his girlfriend had returned with the police young Ross was dead. R.I.P.   FULL STORY
MURDERED! Top

Kevin Jackson 31, 1 January 2002 Halifax, West Yorkshire. Kevin, a father of two young children, was stabbed outside his home while chasing a gang of Asians who were trying to steal his father-in-law's car. Raees Khan, Rashad Zaman and Rangzaib Akhtar have been arrested and charged with his murder.
MURDERED! Top

Anthony O'Brien 24, 27 January 2002 Walworth, South London. Stabbed outside the George IV pub by a black 6ft tall mid-20s. Police still hunting attacker.
MURDERED! Top

Owain Leeson 17, 14 February 2002 Sheffield city centre. A row broke out on a dancefloor which continued in the Uropa nightclub's rear car park. Owain was beaten around the head and face then stabbed with a large knife. He bled to death from his injuries. The group of people involved were described as aged late teens to mid 20s and of Asian or mixed race appearance. The killer is still being sought.
MURDERED! Top

Gavin Hopley 19,16 February 2002 Oldham. Gavin was not from Oldham but from Rochdale and had been for a night out in Oldham town centre. When he wanted to return home he couldn't get a taxi so walked in the hope of flagging one down. Unknown to him he strayed into the Asian area of Glodwick which is a no-go area for whites. For that mistake he was beaten to death by a gang of 12 Asians.
MURDERED! Top

Kriss Donald 15, October 2004, Scotland. Kriss was attacked by Muslim Racists, abducted, driven around Scotland, beaten, mutilated, stabbed and burned alive.
MURDERED! Top

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:32 PM

This is how good government combats racism:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050804.wjean0804/BNStory/National/

Congratulations to Michaelle Jean!!!!!!

A Haitian refugee who speaks five languages and is a woman of colour.

We need more role models like her.

Hats off to Martin for appointing her.

BTW David - What makes you so different than the Immans who preach hatred? Why don't you try doing something positive so that people can attempt to live in harmony?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 10:55 PM

Normal, Carol....

There are several folks around this joint who feel they are entitled to proclaim anything theyu want to proclaim and the rsst of us should just accept it as factual???

Like what is it with these folks???

All I have observed is it is these same folks who continue to justify dividin' folks rather than findin' common ground....

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 07:57 PM

You show your true colors when you throw around those kinds of accusations against me, jpk. You're just throwing little tantrum because you can't back up your assertions with any credible documentation. You just make it all up as you go along and pitch a fit when you get called on it.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:06 PM

read something besides the internet for a change carol,try the national reveiw,the nation,atlantic,discover,forbes,bussiness week,mcclains,etc.try expanding your veiw alittle,and you can see some other points of veiw,and please don't forget you can add a new cultural hero to your list of mao,ho chi,castro,his henchman che[i've seen a lot of t's with his pic on them of late],pol pot,etc.
his name is mugabe in zimbabwa,he is making castro and pot look like kittins,add him to your list of famous people to admire[in there with saddam and osama].

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:49 PM

For once, jpk, how about showing some sources for your assertions. It looks to me like you're just making stuff up to suit your arguments.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:47 PM

show me were the koran promotes tolerance,the two do not fit in the same sentence.
plus it is funny,but a large portion of the muslims in the uk are in support of/simpathitic with the terrorists.
the brits have one of the most anti brit muslim mouth pieces on the public dole.
and they promote diversity,so as to accomodate some of the least tolerant peoples around.
and carol,you can give them everything they demand,but they will not stop untill you bow at there feet in subjugation,particularly those like you[a female,not even worth as muce as a skinny cow]there believe not mine.
when we went to saudi in the first go,the thing that the saudis were afriad of was that women giving orders to the men might be disturbing to the saudi people[one thing in many involving women]
maybe this islam stuff has merit,we can use it to put women uder our thumbs in submission were they belong.[not my belief thiers].

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 03:09 PM

Well, David, you claiom not to be a racist and only you know your own heart but it was you, wasn't it, that posted the cut and paste research picking out parts of the Koran that were less than flattering.... In doing that you left out the other 99.99% of the Koran that instructs those of Islamic Faith to be good, loving people... When folks here pointed out that the Bible indeed had some less than flattering parts you dismissed those arguements...

You can't have it both ways. Either both books instruct man to be good and loving or neither does but you can't say the Koran is evil because of a few passages and the Bible is perfect inspite of a few somewhat questionable passages...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:38 PM

I expect better understanding of his mother tongue from a monoculturalist, David. Moral responsibility is what I referred to, not committing murder itself. The simple, and unavoidable, moral responsibility for spreading the hate that results in the axe being buried in Anthony Walker's skull.

Perhaps you did not instigate the events that resulted in that murder. Perhaps you never even met those that committed it. But you do spread the messages on which their hate is based. So, wash all you like, fella - this one doesn't come off your hands.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:26 PM

Thank God for improvised explosive devices

This particular picket is going to be happening at the funeral of a US soldier killed in Iraq, which is to be held just a few miles down the road from us. The people in this extremist fundamentalist Christian organization are celebrating the killing of this US soldier by an improvised explosive device.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:18 PM

Thank God for the bombing of London's subway today - July 7, 2005 - wherein dozens were killed and hundreds seriously injured. Wish it was many more.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:17 PM

As I said before, it's extremism that is the problem, not Islam. Here's an extremist fundamentalist Christian website that is thanking God for the London bombings.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:00 PM

don't expect to like all the answers though. And when those questions result in murder of innocents, simply because of their different culture, accept the moral responsibility as well.

You do realise i didn't murder innocents right? Are you saying i started the bombings? Or that by asking questions about multi-culturalism it will end in murder?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:50 PM

Question to your heart's content, David - don't expect to like all the answers though. And when those questions result in murder of innocents, simply because of their different culture, accept the moral responsibility as well.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 01:08 PM

Indigenous folk of England? Who might that be? Celts, Normans, Saxons or Picts? How many generations must be British before they are considered indigenous?

All of the above share european anscestry and they all equally share in similar european heritage and culture. Indeed, we were a nation of immigrants, european immigrants.

Are you saying that freedom of speech is only the right of the idigenous folk?

Where are you going with that statement? You certainly sound like a politician. All hype and mumble.

Indeed, the BNP is the only voice credible, standing up for freedom of speech. It must be nice for you, who never questions seriously the state or its intentions, but for the brave people who question Multi-culturalism, they often face prospect of persecution and imprisonment, hence Nick Griffin on trumped up charges.

God forbid anyone questions multi-culturalism...could there be a worse crime?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:38 PM

"Thank god there is 1 voice of the silent majority to stand up for freedom of speech, and for the rights of indigenous folk..."

Huh???

Indigenous folk of England? Who might that be? Celts, Normans, Saxons or Picts? How many generations must be British before they are considered indigenous?

Are you saying that freedom of speech is only the right of the idigenous folk?

Where are you going with that statement? You certainly sound like a politician. All hype and mumble.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:34 AM

then answer the hypothetical?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:18 AM

David Hannam, you represent no silent majority. You represent a vocal minority of racists. I would hope that people here from other parts of the world who may not have heard much about the BNP, read clearly through all of your BS and realise why so many of us in the UK avoid the BNP like the plague.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:07 AM

David, here's a simple maths lesson:
1 million is not a majority, silent or otherwise.
But you were right about one thing: "It is the minority who will cause havoc".

Snap!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: muppett
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:26 AM

Guest I WAS being hypothetical as well

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:18 AM

Well, thankfully, 1 Million people voted BNP last year, we have 23 Councillors with more in the bag soon, and at the General Election we came almost consistently 4th everywhere we stood.

Thank god there is 1 voice of the silent majority to stand up for freedom of speech, and for the rights of indigenous folk, and the right not to be bombed by muslim extremists.

Some people live in a dream-world. Face facts, we are being bombed. Bombed by people who believe Allah and Islam as a faith condones their terror attacks.

Is that blaming all Muslims, of course not, that would be silly, but it is the minority who will cause havoc.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:46 PM

Ahhhhh, I thought the title of this thread was "How to End Racism"???

To read David and others posts maybe they have misread the name of this thread as "How to Promote Racism".

You do it quite simple. Generalize about folks based on their race, etrhnic origin or their religion... That's how you promote racism and I'd like to nominate David as "Promoter Extroidinare'"...

Well done, David...

Bravo....

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:42 PM

Right on Singen

Exposure to the many cultures that are around us is enriching, we only have to open our minds and hearts and let them in.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:29 PM

I posted="shoot the rasists"

David hanam says= Qoute="you would shoot everyone."


thats not true, most people i know are not rasist.


ps= in fact, i dont give a flying fuck were somebody comes from.
if they are good people, they good people [ie=happy, good sence of humor etc], plenty of my frends come from different countries.


and anyway= loads of foreign doctors, so kick em all out, then helf service is fucked!

anyway= i , [my uncke is a doctor, and we lived with him wehn i was little, and all neebours was foreign,],but iwas not bothered,

[i was speaking Urdu aged five, and eating curry, and chappatis.


different culture is good [food, musicc etc].

john

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:06 PM

This thread was not started as a Muslim intolerance thread. It was started as a thread that highlights the aspects of Islam that promote tolerance.

Knee-jerk liberal response. I know Christians in the UK don't throw acid in the face of their wifes because they didn't attend church. Is this is not backward??????

I'm not a liberal.

Men who are not Muslims do horrible things to women in Britain all the time, David (and sometimes they even kill them). And I know that some of them believe they are entitled to because God created Eve entirely for the benefit of Adam, and because the Bible tells them that it is their right. Many of these men are Christians.

And then there are the non-Muslim men who abuse Muslim women just because they are Muslims.

I have never said, and you can look, as their is probably 20 instances when i have said, that i believe it is unfair to say all muslims are guilty, all i am saying, is that the muslim community needs to look at extremists on their doorsteps, and in their mosques and protect especially their young from being misled.

Every time you say "Islam is" this or that, you are blaming all Muslims. There is no monolithic entity you can point a finger at called "Islam" that you can make blanket statements about. As I have repeatedly said, there are too many different kinds of Islam for you to be able to do that. Every time you say "Islam is" you are including all Muslims in your statement. And in that way you spread hatred and intolerance.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:25 PM

No it isn't. The reason Islam is being discussed in the way it is in this thread is because there are people (like you) who are trying to spread hatred towards all Muslims because of the actions of some Muslims.

Excuse me, all the muslim intolerance threads, and this one were not started by me. Please get your facts correct. And, i don't spread hatred. I like the way once someone actually debates a point with a liberal, all the liberal can do is scream names and abuse.

There really are people who commit atrocities in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and many other religions... even today. But you don't tend to hear so much about them because the groups they belong to aren't the ones currently being scapegoated by the "powers that be".

No, the reason Muslims are the topic of interest, is because Muslims are bombing Britain. My only interest is in Britain, not in eastern europe, not the far-east, not anywhere. And before you say they are extremists, not Muslims, those terrorists used to belief of Allah and the purposes of Islam how THEY intepretated it, to instill in them the belief to bomb and kill.

I have never said, and you can look, as their is probably 20 instances when i have said, that i believe it is unfair to say all muslims are guilty, all i am saying, is that the muslim community needs to look at extremists on their doorsteps, and in their mosques and protect especially their young from being misled.

There is a news item, which i shall get for you in the next post about a UK Muslim woman having acid thrown in her face because she didn't attend the mosque when supposed to. This is barbaric, and although i accept that such crimes are committed by all peoples, when those actions are condoned in the Koran, it is very worrying.

Yes, Christianity has progressed, ok, in Uzbekistan i am sure their are injustices, but we are talking about the UK now, the Western world, and Christianity has, progressed and adapted. We believe in the rights of women for instance to vote, dress how they wish, to have an education.

Statements like this are misleading, not true, and also are designed to do one thing and one thing only... spread intolerance and hate.

Knee-jerk liberal response. I know Christians in the UK don't throw acid in the face of their wifes because they didn't attend church. Is this is not backward??????

Again, the problem is extremist fundamentalism. Not Islam itself.

Extremist Muslim fundamentalism. For it is muslim extremists who are bombing us. It would only be extremists alone, if relgion was not their motivation to kill.

Once again, it is senseless to blame all muslims, but whilst the UK still has tthe huge immigration problem where 60% of immigrants are Muslim, we are ticking on a time-bomb.

eeeh, i do love our squabbles. lol

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:25 PM

you all are so damn blind,it is all about power and greed[control of others]the koran,bible,other excuses, are nothing more than tools being used to futher there ends.
and yes,the powers that want to be/are will use race as well and if it means black at black white at white for what ever reason they will do so,and yes darfur,those doing the killing do use there so called racial diffrences as an excuse to kill

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 05:04 PM

"I am saying that whilst Islam remains centuries behind, and does not progress, and remains the biggesr religion to infringe on human rights, Muslim nationes ..." blah, blah, blah

What about Uzbekistan? Even moderate Muslims are arrested and tortured. Seems that their non-Muslim president (Karimov) likes to boil his tortured Muslims when he's finished with them.

When you try to blame Muslims for living in the past, you are wrong. There are plenty of Christians and Jews who cling to Orthodoxy. None of this has to do with torture or terrorism.

Torture and terrorism are carried out by powerful fanatics who use religion as an excuse to demonize others.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 03:18 PM

Yes i understand that Carol, but Islam is the subject at hand simply because Muslim terrorists are professing Islam, and committing atrocities in the name of 'allah'.

No it isn't. The reason Islam is being discussed in the way it is in this thread is because there are people (like you) who are trying to spread hatred towards all Muslims because of the actions of some Muslims.

There really are people who commit atrocities in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and many other religions... even today. But you don't tend to hear so much about them because the groups they belong to aren't the ones currently being scapegoated by the "powers that be".

For instance, it was Christians who committed the massacres at Sabra and Shatilla, and Jews who sent the heavily armed Christians into those undefended camps and left them alone while they did their dirty work.

whilst Islam remains centuries behind

Statements like this are misleading, not true, and also are designed to do one thing and one thing only... spread intolerance and hate.

You can't say "Islam is" anything at all since there are factions within Islam that have progressed just as far as the more liberal factions within any other religion. Making a blanket statement like that about Islam is simply a lie. It is not a lie to say that some factions within Islam remain centuries behind. But that can also be said about most other major religions.

Saying that Islam as a religion is centuries behind just because some factions within it may be centuries behind would be the same as if I said "White male Christians are rapists", just because some White male Christians are rapists.

Again, the problem is extremist fundamentalism. Not Islam itself.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:39 PM

David,
you keep harping on about Christianity having modernised. I beg to differ, because I cannot reconcile your statement with the atrocities committed in Bosnia and other places in ex-Yugoslavia. How modern were those Christians shelling the busy marketplace? Was that not terrorism, aimed at non-combatants as it were? And that is just one of the examples that the 1990s provided us with, in that small corner of the world alone.

No, I'll go with CarolC - extremism is the problem. And racism is not "caused" by religion, it's caused by perceived differences: of skin colour, tribal allegiance, anything that makes one uneducated moron fear another. Religion is then sometimes used as a convenient cloak to dress up racism and to facilitate conversion of others to the "cause" of the racist. And the racist will use any interpretation of the Qur'an or the Talmud or the Bible etc that suits his/her purpose. He/she is helped (unwittingly or not) in this by those who - as dianavan points out - take the old scriptures literally, making no allowances for the intervening passage of time.

But I disagree, dianavan, that religion is redundant and listening to one's heart is sufficient. One could say that this rule is followed by killers, thieves, mass murderes etc. Not all hearts are pure, unfortunately, so some "external" code of conduct is still required.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:20 PM

Yes i understand that Carol, but Islam is the subject at hand simply because Muslim terrorists are professing Islam, and committing atrocities in the name of 'allah'.

I am saying that whilst Islam remains centuries behind, and does not progress, and remains the biggesr religion to infringe on human rights, Muslim nationes still infringe on the basic of human rights, rights of women, who are forced to be veiled, are not permitted an education, are not even allowed the vote.Women are stoned for adultery, etc, or for not covering their body's or faces accordingly.

These are the actions of a backward and outdated faith. Like Christianity did, Islam should modernise too. Do you agree Islam should modernize?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:14 PM

The problem, David, is not Islam. The problem is extremism in any form. It is extremism that we need to be criticizing and addressing. Not any one specific religion (especially considering the fact that most, if not all major religions have destructive extremist elements).

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Dave Hannam
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:08 PM

Damn those itallics

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:27 PM

You can read those books metaphorically but to try to apply those laws and the associated punishment to modern civilization is ridiculous.

Agreed, but the problem is that many extremist Muslims are taking them literally. Western Civilization updated and modernised Christianity so as to cope and adapt to the new world, and freedoms in the new world.

Islam, is however regressing, or at least static. Muslim nationes still infringe on the basic of human rights, take for instance the rights of women, who are forced to be veiled, are not permitted an education, are not even allowed the vote.Women are stoned for adultery, etc, or for not covering their body's or faces accordingly. This all takes place in Iran for instance.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 11:58 AM

You're right mooman. I tried to put two ideas into one sentence.

Many of the above quotes from the Koran involve punishment for breaking the law. The Bible is written in a similar tone but from a different perspective.

What I am trying to say is that those laws are now outdated and that civil law should be separate from religious law that was based on books written so long ago. This is why the separation of church and state is so necessary. You can read those books metaphorically but to try to apply those laws and the associated punishment to modern civilization is ridiculous.

As far as moral guidance - I still believe that if you listen to your heart, you will know the difference between right and wrong.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mooman
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 04:59 AM

Besides that, we have civil laws and do not have to rely on those books which were written long ago to tell us the difference between right and wrong.

Dianavan,

Whether or not one subscribes to a religion based on those books, I would question whether "civil laws" necessarily have the value to inform us of the difference between "right and wrong", except in the purely legal sense. Much of the despoilation of the environment and distortion of trade between rich and poor countries, for example, has been "legal".

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 04:48 AM

muppett...sorry, i misled you for someone who understood the meaning of ''hypothetical'.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: muppett
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 04:19 AM

Guest, what if it rains tomorrow, what if I get Knocked over by an elephant, Your point is .....................

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:51 AM

Anybody who bases their lives on books that were written a couple of thousand years ago, must be pretty desperate for a value system. It doesn't matter if you read the Koran, the new testament or the old, they really have very little to say about the world we now live in.

Racism exists because there are ignorant people in this world that discriminate on the basis of skin colour.

I work with children of many colours and I can tell you for a fact that they do not discriminate when they want a playmate.

Discrimination is socially imposed and is not limited to colour.

Besides that, we have civil laws and do not have to rely on those books which were written long ago to tell us the difference between right and wrong.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 12:13 AM

I want what jpk is smokin' if he's going to place the blame fir Darfur on racism????

I mean, if jpk is going to stick by this story, like it's beyond comprehension...

Like arguin' that Lee Harvey Osweld shot Kennedy becuase Kennedy was white?????

EXcuse me, jpk, but you've given the Wes Ginny Slide Rule a big ol' headache...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 06:19 PM

You are saying that Black people in Darfur are killing other Black people in Darfur because they are Black, jpk?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 05:45 PM

they are carol,just look at dafar,and the killing is racist,with a bit of we like doing this on the side,weapon of chioce being the machete are such similar
and as far as buring skelitons,only when they figure out where to start.
i get sick and tired of everyone thinking that slavery was unique to america and white european settlers. IT DAMN WELL WAS NOT

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 02:20 PM

muppett, and what if someone did punch you?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM

David-Open Mic session tonight at Spring Bank Tavern, town end of Spring Bank.
pop along if your not doing nowt,lets hear your stuff.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:00 PM

ending racisimis easy,    just shoot allthe rasist people.
ie=go to there house, if they are rasists,shoot them.

hahaha. You would end up shooting everyone, i.e racists from all backgrounds, at least you would be indiscriminate. lololol. That was a joke everybody.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,jOhn fromHull
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:57 PM

Hello David.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:55 PM

BTW, White people commit many crimes against other White people here, too. And White people against Black people. Black people are not the only people who commit crimes here in the US. I tend to suspect it is the same in Britain.

Yes, agreed. I was simply clarifying jpk position on racist killings in Africa. The only racist murders i know taking place in Africa is against whites, especially farmers.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 12:33 PM

ending racisimis easy,    just shoot allthe rasist people.
ie=go to there house, if they are rasists,shoot them.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: muppett
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 11:33 AM

Guest, I've never been punched in the stomach by someone, apart from when mucking about and I like to think the reason for this is that I treat everybody the way I would Like to be treated myself i.e. with respect, a weakling ?????????????

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 11:22 AM

BTW, White people commit many crimes against other White people here, too. And White people against Black people. Black people are not the only people who commit crimes here in the US. I tend to suspect it is the same in Britain.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 11:19 AM

The part I tend to disagree with is the idea that Black people are killing other Black people because they are racist against Blacks, as jpk appears to be saying.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 10:17 AM

Agree Carol, though i think JPK was reffering to black-on black crime, i.e drugs, yardie gangs etc that are present in big numbers in London and Nottingham, etc, and i imagine the problem is far worse in the states.

When we think of Africa, in regard to racism, most think of the brutal killings of white farmer zimbabweans (Spelling?), who are targeted because they are white. White folk in South Africa, and Zimbabwe are the   biggest victims of race hate crime.

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos16.asp

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:36 PM

Good point, Carol.... It ain't about that at all... It's tribal and territorial....

jpk's logic is way off here... It'd be like sayin' that black folks here in the US are killin' each other because the other one is, ahhhh, black????

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:29 PM

Black people killing other Black people because they are Black? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM

jpk,

No!

Genocide is horrible... I'd be quite willing to see the US military used in various areas of Africa to bring some order while Africa sorts out its various tribal issues... The Sudan is a good place to start... And long overdue...

But that doesn't change the fact that the world's so-called role model isn't doing much in the way of standin' up and sayin' that racism isn't acceptable...

Hey, it can't even bring itself to apologize for its own some 240 years of slavery??? LIke what's that all about??? Yet it wants other countries to play nice??? Hey, a good start would be fir it to get it's own skelatons out of the closet and get them buried...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:14 PM

El Grecko, bringing up the death of the young lad in Liverpool and in so doing trying to say that we're not civilised is ridiculous, you know as well as I that virtually the whole country was stunned by it. And have you found ONE person praise it. Get real.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 06:39 PM

the racyist of the racist are at this moment are in africa,blacks killing blacks because they are black,all in the name of ethnic clensing,but i guess us whitie americans are to blame for that too,right bobert.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:51 PM

David,

You sound like a learned person, howeven, I must agree with CarolC that yer sweeping generializations do not help yer position here but hinder it... The topic of this thread is ending racisim and you, IMO, are doing everything that the power stucture expects of its good little foot soldiers in throwing more gasoline on the fire...

Let'as go back to the example I pointed out in Matthew where Jesus tells the disciples that only thru Him can they know the Father (God). Well, lets turn the tables. What if someone of Islamic faith were to tell you that only thru Mohammed could you know Ala (God). Now this may seem to you to be a non-issue but when you turn the tables around and try to emphathize with someone who you are telling has no ability to have a relationship with God because your relgion is better than his then all you are doing is perpitrating a system of conflict and mistrust and misunderstanding...

If you can't see this point then I can't see that you are capable of being anyone I'd feel has any concrete motivation to end racism...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 02:14 PM

And then there are the many cases of Muslim women in Britain who are harassed and/or beaten because they wear a hijab. The Dean of the Muslim College in London has issued a fatwa instructing Muslim women there to take off their hijab if they feel they may come to some harm because of wearing it...

"A leading British Muslim scholar has said that Muslim women living in the European country, where Muslims have been suffering mounting abuse and harassment since the July 7 London attacks, can take off their hijab.

'I have issued a fatwa that Muslim women in Britain have an Islamic right to take off their hijab at this point of time if attacked or fearing to be attacked,' Dr. Zaki Badawi, the Dean of the Muslim College in London, told IslamOnline.net over the phone from the British capital.

Badawi said they have registered more than 15,00 assault against hijab-clad women during the past three days only, in addition to a flood of threat letters."

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-07/28/article05.shtml

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 01:32 PM

Agree EL Greko, as harrowing as the case of Kriss Donald who was murdered and tortured in the back of a car and set on fire and body dumped. It was an Muslim on white attack. Killing someone for the colour of their skin is sick, sick and sick.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:49 PM

Thank God we are too civilised in the West to commit such acts. We just bury axes into innocent 18-year old kids' heads instead, for being the wrong colour. No, we're not racist, us.

On your doorstep, David.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:46 PM

Care to mention of these Christian Churches? Though i dare say there are a few no doubt about it, however, on the scale of comparison to islam, it is insignificant.

The Southern Baptist Church in the US. The Mormon Church. Many small independant fundamentalist churches in the US. The Catholic Church.

I know, there are indeed many Muslim women who choose, or are lucky enough to not have to wear veils, however, in western society, whatever a womans choice, it is not punishable by having acid thrown on your face or being stoned to death!

There are many Muslim women who, when they don't wear the veil or the hijab, do not have to worry about having acid thrown on their faces or being stoned to death. That is a problem in some places, but hardly all of them. And there are other religions besides Islam in which women are punished with similar cruelty for not doing what they are told. Many Hindu women in India, for instance, are maimed, disfigured, and killed for not doing as they are told.

Islam, however badly you would like to make it out to be a monolithic entity in which the same conditions exist everywhere in the world for all Muslims, simply is not that way, any more than the Christian religion or any other religion is. There are many different levels of liberalism and fundamentalism within Islam, just as there are within Christianity and probably all other religions. Your broad, sweeping generalizations are just that... broad, sweeping generalizations. They do not in any way resemble the truth.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:36 PM

Acid in womans face

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=7197

BAGDAD, 4 Jul 2005 (IRIN) - For Sumeya Abdullah, a 34-year-old primary school teacher in the capital Baghdad, life will never be the same again. In late June she had her legs burned by corrosive acid in a street attack because, she believes, she was not wearing her veil and the traditional 'abaya' covering common in many Middle Eastern countries.

"I was shopping in one of the most crowded districts in Baghdad when I felt my skin burning by something corrosive. It was horrible, a terrible pain, then I found myself in hospital," Abdullah said.

Witnesses in the district where the attack happened, said that for more than two weeks, women have been targeted by acid attackers for dressing immodestly. Sometimes the assailants spray or throw the acid on foot, or on occasion, from a moving car. Other attacks have been even more shocking.

"A month ago I was walking from my college to my house when I was abducted in the street by three men. They dropped acid in my face and on my legs. They cut all my hair off while hitting me in the face many times telling me it's the price for not obeying God's wish in using the veil," Hania Abdul-Jabbar, a 23-year-old university student, recounted.

"Today I cannot see out of one eye because the acid made me lose my vision. I am afraid to leave my house. Now I am permanently disfigured with a monster face," she added with tears rolling down her swollen and scarred cheeks.

"The rights of freedom should be respected and each person has the right to choose what to wear. Those criminals should be in jail," Abdullah urged.

According to local police, dozens of women have had parts of their bodies burned by religious conservatives in a string of incidents throughout the capital in recent weeks. Maj Abbas Dilemi, a senior police investigator in Baghdad, said that most of the acid attacks had occurred in the Mansour and Kadhmyia districts of the city.

"Our sources have found that many children are being used to conduct such violence. The one adult we have arrested for this crime cannot accept Iraqi women wearing Western clothes and walking without veils, alleging that it's a prohibition by God," Dilemi said.

During Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraqi women were more or less free to wear what they wanted. In the 1980s Iraq was considered one of the most Western countries in the region in terms of fashion.

The current attacks and intimidation are not confined to the capital. In the western province of Anbar, female residents have received warnings not to go out without their veils and abayas since April 2004. Five women were reported killed in the province for not following the orders of religious radicals since the war the led to Hussein's downfall ended in May 2003.

"Our country is a Muslim country and women should respect this by wearing veils and long cloaks. I'm against the use of acid against them but something should be done to force them into wearing the clothes," Sheik Hussein Abbas, a radical Shi'ite leader in the capital, said.

Despite the attacks, many women are refusing to bow to the will of religious extremists.

"I won't force myself to use something that I don't feel comfortable with. Women in Iraq are losing their place in society and we have to fight that and determine who we are and how we should dress, despite these dangers," Hiba Zuheir, 24, a resident of Mansour district, said.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:33 PM

These kinds of generalizations show your agenda to be what it really is... to spread intolerance and hatred toward one specific group of people.

?

The TRUTH is that there are still many Christian churches that have not progressed to the point that you think, in which women are still required to be subservient and submissive toward men, and are regarded as having been created entirely for the benefit of men.

Care to mention of these Christian Churches? Though i dare say there are a few no doubt about it, however, on the scale of comparison to islam, it is insignificant.

And there are many Muslims who are far more liberal than the stereotype you are spreading about them. There are many Muslim women who do not wear a veil or a hijab, and are not required to by the leaders of their congregations. On the other hand, many Muslim women who do wear them, do so because it enables them to feel liberated from the burden of being regarded as sex objects by men. They are entitled to make this decision for themselves.

I know, there are indeed many Muslim women who choose, or are lucky enough to not have to wear veils, however, in western society, whatever a womans choice, it is not punishable by having acid thrown on your face or being stoned to death!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:24 PM

Correction. My last post should read like this:

The TRUTH is that there are still many Christian churches that have not progressed to the point that you think, in which women are still required to be subservient and submissive toward men, and are regarded as having been created entirely for the benefit of men.

And there are many Muslims who are far more liberal than the stereotype you are spreading about them. There are many Muslim women who do not wear a veil or a hijab, and are not required to by the leaders of their congregations. On the other hand, many Muslim women who do wear them, do so because it enables them to feel liberated from the burden of being regarded as sex objects by men. They are entitled to make this decision for themselves.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:22 PM

Indeed, and...as i have said, just as the bible once expoused views that were represented in the various churches against womens rights, abortion, even homosexuality, the church has now progressed to a more civilized standing to meet the new modern day. Can the same be said of Islam? Walking in Bradford today and watching hundreds of Muslim wearing veils to cover themselves, i guess it has not.

These kinds of generalizations show your agenda to be what it really is... to spread intolerance and hatred toward one specific group of people.

The TRUTH is that there are still many Christian churches that have not progressed to the point that you think, in which women are still required to be subservient and submissive toward men, and are regarded as having been created entirely for the benefit of men. They are entitled to make this decision for themselves.

And there are many Muslims who are far more liberal than the stereotype you are spreading about them. There are many Muslim women who do not wear a veil or a hijab, and are not required to by the leaders of their congregations. On the other hand, many Muslim women who do wear them, do so because it enables them to feel liberated from the burden of being regarded as sex objects by men.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM

When God instructs Abraham to sacrifice (kill) his son, and Abraham is perfectly willing to do it. That, of course is infanticide. Why did God instruct Abraham to do this? Because it would be the ultimate test of Abraham's loyalty and faith. God gave Abraham a test that was in violation of everything the Bible tells us is right and good, and Abraham was willing to do it. That reminds me of the kinds of tests people are put to in organized crime and in gangs. You have to kill someone in order to prove your loyalty to the gang. What does that tell us about the God of the Christian Bible? It tells us that the idea is to have compliant followers who will be willing to commit the worst crimes imaginable in the name of their religion.

Indeed, and...as i have said, just as the bible once expoused views that were represented in the various churches against womens rights, abortion, even homosexuality, the church has now progressed to a more civilized standing to meet the new modern day. Can the same be said of Islam? Walking in Bradford today and watching hundreds of Muslim wearing veils to cover themselves, i guess it has not.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:56 AM

I was always taught by my parents to treat EVERYBODY how you would like to be treated yourself, i.e. with respect.

the philosophy of a weakling. So when someone punches you in the stomach what do you do? You punch back!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,MUPPETT
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:36 AM

I was always taught by my parents to treat EVERYBODY how you would like to be treated yourself, i.e. with respect.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:19 AM

I don't have time to do any bible searches just now, but here's one that always sticks in my mind...

When God instructs Abraham to sacrifice (kill) his son, and Abraham is perfectly willing to do it. That, of course is infanticide. Why did God instruct Abraham to do this? Because it would be the ultimate test of Abraham's loyalty and faith. God gave Abraham a test that was in violation of everything the Bible tells us is right and good, and Abraham was willing to do it. That reminds me of the kinds of tests people are put to in organized crime and in gangs. You have to kill someone in order to prove your loyalty to the gang. What does that tell us about the God of the Christian Bible? It tells us that the idea is to have compliant followers who will be willing to commit the worst crimes imaginable in the name of their religion.

Then we have all of the various genocides that the God of the Bible tells his followers to commit in his name, in which they are instructed to kill every man, woman, child, and all of the livestock (which they do). And then there is the infanticide of Passover.

And then of course, the incident in which Angels are visiting Lot and the people of the city come to Lot's house and demand that he send the Angles out so they can be raped. Lot says, "Let me send out my daughters instead. They are virgins." That happens right before the God of the Bible completely destroys two entire cities and all of the people in them.

You really need to spend a lot more time reading the Bible if you're going to be casting stones at Islam. Perhaps a better knowledge of what is in the Bible will stay your hand.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:02 AM

OK David, but the Muslim leaders in the UK are urging their followers to denounce all that the fanatics are currently doing in the name of Islam.

So we are left with a minority of extremists causing terror. They are not representative of the majority of Muslims living in the UK. Which you have already recognised. We have to allow change to take place to move forward.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:47 AM

agree, chritianity has done many wrong things in past, but has changed to suit the modern era. Islam is stuck in past

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:15 AM

Then fast-forward to Matthew where Jesus says that only thru him one can know the father... If I am of Islamic Faith and am being told that I can't have a relationship with God because it has to be thru Jesus then I can see how that might be as offensive as the passgaes in the Koran about Christains...

No, that is not offensive, as religions have always differed as to what exactly is the path of 'righteousnous', hence that is why we have different faiths. islam states it is the only 'way' too, so should we take offence, no, maybe, perhaps, who knows, what i do know, is that although we differ, our modern christian insitututions do not read from scriptures such as,

"Qur'an 8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."

It is hardly tolerant is it! And of course your above quote, pales into insignificance when set next to the quotes that were made eariler! Yes, you are right, Christianity says it is the only way, and Islam states to strike off the heads of UNBELIEVERS, CUT THEIR FINGERS OFF AND THEIR TOES!!!!!!!!

Your comparison is laughable.

"For I was envious of the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For they have no pangs; their bodies are sound and sleek. They are not in trouble as other men are: they are not stricken like other men. Therefore pride is their naecklace; violence covers them as a garment. Their eyes swell out with fatness, their hearts overflow with follies. They scoff and speak with amlice, loftily they threaten oppression. They set their mouths agianst the heavens and their tongue struts through the earth. Therefore the peopl;e turn and praise them; and find no fault with them. And they say, "How can God know? Is there knowledge in the Most High?" Behold, these are the wicked; always at ease, they increase in riches..."

Psalms 73: 3-12

Again, the bible talking about envy, greed etc, is an entirely different subject from Koran quotes about murder, mutilation, rape, pillage, and stonings.

Get real, please find me passages in the Bible which specifically talks about killing the unbelievers, mutilating their bodies, raping their wifes, pillaging etc, please find me them, and not quotes from the bible about envy. lolol. You seem to have missed the entire point.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:31 PM

BTW, no cut and paste....

(oh, convince us, Bobert, as itf the usual nummer of typos din't allready give you away...)

Nevermind...

Maybe 100, maybe not...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:37 PM

"Slavery bullshit", jpk??? Spoken like the whitest of the whitemen... Ahhhh, did it ever occur to you that if the US could deal with it's past and do the right thing in sayin that people shouldn't own people then it might send a message to the rest of the world??? Hey, is this too farfetched???

Ahhh, David, if you need specifics I'll do a little rereading but there are many references to floggin's in the Bible... Look in the area of Proverbs 17 'er 18... Floggin's is one od the things that, oh horrors, that Robert nad in his cut and past thread of pickin' at the Koran...

Then fast-forward to Matthew where Jesus says that only thru him one can know the father... If I am of Islamic Faith and am being told that I can't have a relationship with God because it has to be thru Jesus then I can see how that might be as offensive as the passgaes in the Koran about Christains...

BTW, I am a Christain but one who believes in a loving God...

Then lets bounce back to Psalms.... Ahhhh, many of you know how I describe the Boss Hog's of the world, many of whom think themselves Christains, but the Bible goes way beyond what I have said:

In speakin' to us to not be angry with the Boss Hog's of the world but to trust in the Lord and trust in His love this how the Bible talks of Boss Hog:

"For I was envious of the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For they have no pangs; their bodies are sound and sleek. They are not in trouble as other men are: they are not stricken like other men. Therefore pride is their naecklace; violence covers them as a garment. Their eyes swell out with fatness, their hearts overflow with follies. They scoff and speak with amlice, loftily they threaten oppression. They set their mouths agianst the heavens and their tongue struts through the earth. Therefore the peopl;e turn and praise them; and find no fault with them. And they say, "How can God know? Is there knowledge in the Most High?" Behold, these are the wicked; always at ease, they increase in riches..."

Psalms 73: 3-12

Yeah, IMO, this is a Christain teaching that gets gloosed over by most Christains... Why? It's obvious... If they stopped to read this then they might have to hold a lot of so-called Chriatain leaders accountable... But accountabilty isn't something that a George Bush and folks like Jerry Falwell know much about... But that's really a different thread...

This is about racism and fir folks to have such narrow views of peoples and religions is the foundation of racism...

In the verses I chose I showed a couple of things. First, I illustarted where the Bible, if picked apart by a well funded Christain hate organization, such as the one that more than likely picjed thru the Koran, would not hold up and better... I mean, you have fathers killin' their own kids, fir gsih sakes????

Ahhhh, but the second point I made is that within each relgion there are things that make some of its follower squirmy...

Yeah, if we are going to "End Racism" it will take not only follwers of the Bible and the Koran but followers of many. mnay relgions to find common ground... There is plenty of common ground...

The problem with finding that common ground is that is very m,uch treatens the powerful and so it is going to be a fight that is going to have to have folks put down their petty cuts and paste mentalities and talk about what we all have in common... The powerfull politican that control the media don't want that. They want folks to stay divided. They don't want common grond 'cause common ground is their largest enemy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:27 PM

shakey, i am not saying any topic is off limits. just stating my view like everyone else here.

and guest, go jump.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 05:08 PM

seems to me that the race issue is going the same way as the sex issue did with fraud[intended],not everything can be blamed on racism,whether you want it to be or not[a white and a black/or ablack and a white,just to be fair.get into bar fight,suddenly it becomes race motavated,but was only just a drunken bar fight.seen it happen,the two men were and still are freinds,except to the papers]
and try pushing reverse racism,rapant in a lot of places,but ignored as being fair turnabout.just show people how to act like people and not ignorant slobs.won't happen though,look at the dumbing down of the schools.teaching the next gen of service job slaves.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 04:55 PM

bobert, imight put the least bit of stock in your slavery bullshit,if and when you face the slavery issue past and present in the rest of the world.instead of ignoring it just to harp on the us,more race injust is taking place today in a large part of the world that has nothing to do with the us,face it aswell if not first since it is today and not yesteryear.not saying things wernt so just that we were not the only ones,slavery was imported to this country by our forebearers black and white plus others,put the blame were it belongs,not just on one little corner that might be able to be distorted for money.and don't forget there were some white and yellow slaves as well just not as visable.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:38 PM

<i>like this</i >
like this

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:56 PM

The idea is to criticize the behavior, regardless of who is practicing it, rather than to criticeze only one group over and over, even though only some of the members of that group are engaging in it, while ignoring the same or similar behavior by other groups. If you really want to be "fair", that is what you'll do.

HTML for italics...

< plus the letter "i" (without quotes) plus > , then the text you want italicized, then < plus / plus the letter "i" plus >

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:50 PM

P.S. How do you manage to quote me in italics?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:49 PM

"The bible absolutely contains passages as horrific as the ones you have posted. I don't currently have a bible in my possession, so I can't put them here right now. I'll see if I can find some for you online"

yes, please find them thank you.

"And there are equally horrific things being done to women and others by some members of the other major monotheistic religions as well"

Yes, but considering Christianity is the largest religion in the world, we certainly don't seem to have the problems that Islam encounters. I understand there are a million Muslims, and there are 2 Million Christians, but we are not terrorizing people by suicide bombings. I am not blaming all Muslims, that would be silly, i know Muslims myself who utterly condemn the kind of extremism, i simply think Muslim leaders should accept that they have a problem. A religion that promises eternal heaven in reward for murder is simply not good. Thus the Koran, as the bible was, should be reviewed and alterted to meet the modern worlds needs and tolerance. Tolerance for peoples, (women especially) and nations, that are different, and differ in path from their scriptures.

Also, i realise that other monotheistic religions inflict sufferings on women too, but what i am saying, is that when you are looking at the second largest faith in the world, and that faith still expouses utter intolerance and hatred for other peoples and women still are punished by death and stoning for the smallest of details, then it becomes a different matter.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:41 PM

Can you find some passages in the Bible that resemble the very vivid horror depicted in the Qur'an passages below. Mutilation, killing, suicide killing, amputation, rape, pillage, etc.

The bible absolutely contains passages as horrific as the ones you have posted. I don't currently have a bible in my possession, so I can't put them here right now. I'll see if I can find some for you online.

To be fair Carol, a lot has been done in the name of Christianity. But, Christianity has progressed and changed to meet the new modern times. Christianity accepts women as equals in society, etc.

Islam, on the other hand, can hardly be said to have shown that same progression. Take the mass stonings that still take place in Iran as one example. Absolutely horrific.

This is not being in the least bit fair. There are almost a billion Muslims in the world, and there are just as many different levels of liberalism and fundamentalism within Islam as there are within the other major monotheistic religions. And there are equally horrific things being done to women and others by some members of the other major monotheistic religions as well.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

Can you find some passages in the Bible that resemble the very vivid horror depicted in the Qur'an passages below. Mutilation, killing, suicide killing, amputation, rape, pillage, etc.

Can you find any of these passages similar in the Bible?

To be fair Carol, a lot has been done in the name of Christianity. But, Christianity has progressed and changed to meet the new modern times. Christianity accepts women as equals in society, etc.

Islam, on the other hand, can hardly be said to have shown that same progression. Take the mass stonings that still take place in Iran as one example. Absolutely horrific.

Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."

Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbours for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering."

Qur'an 5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly."

Qur'an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an 8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."

Qur'an 4:94 "Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah's Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: 'You are not a believer!' Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty."

Qur'an 47:33 "Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace."

Qur'an 9:3 "Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle."

Qur'an 9:12 "If they violate their oaths and break treaties, taunting you for your Religion, then fight these specimens of faithlessness."

Qur'an 9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe him, strive hard and fight jihad with their wealth and lives (in Allah's Cause)."

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:31 PM

If we are going to be collecting and posting examples from religious literature of passages that promote intolerance and/or hate, why are we selecting them from the literature of only one of the world's major religions. All of the three major monotheistic religions contain many examples of such passages. Or even the news items about events that demonstrate these things. Examples of these kinds of extremism can also be found in most of the world's major religions. Perhaps Mr. Price's selectivity is, indeed, and example of the very thing he appears to be criticizing.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 12:02 PM

Shakey,
perhaps I am overstating the Flemish-Dutch divide; but it is definitely there (and I rather agree with you about the reasons; the Dutch can be boisterous and often appear unintentionally rude). Antwerp and Gent are the two Belgian cities I know best, so that probably colours my view. As to the Flemish-Walloon divide, yes indeed, that's another story altogether, from what I know - though I have little first hand experience other than the looks I got the first time I spoke Dutch in the "wrong" Brussels district!

As you are married to a Flemish lady you no doubt get much more practice than I do - I only manage to keep my Dutch up through calling friends regularly for a chat. And you'll get the best of the accents; I always preferred the softer Flemish and their sometimes older word usage to the "modern is good" Dutch.

Mijne besten aan jullie beiden.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:45 AM

Snce this is a music forum, here's a song that conveys what I feel about spirit and determination of individuals who confront racism and other forms of bigotry:

Something Inside So Strong
by Labi Siffre

The higher you build your barriers
The taller I become
The farther you take my rights away
The faster I will run
You can deny me
You can decide to turn your face away
No matter, cause there's....

Something inside so strong
I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

The more you refuse to hear my voice
The louder I will sing
You hide behind walls of Jericho
Your lies will come tumbling
Deny my place in time
You squander wealth that's mine
My light will shine so brightly
It will blind you
Cause there's......

Something inside so strong
I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

Brothers and sisters
When they insist we're just not good enough
When we know better
Just look 'em in the eyes and say
I'm gonna do it anyway x 2

Something inside so strong
And I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

Brothers and sisters
When they insist we're just good not enough
When we know better
Just look 'em in the eyes and say
I'm gonna do it anyway x 4

Because there's something inside so strong
And I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me, so wrong
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

-snip-


Positive vibrations,


Azizi

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:15 AM

freda underhill, if ever there was an epitomy of liberal arrogance, you are it.

basically, why not just say it, anyone who criticizes multi-culturalism is wrong, evil and a fascist. The only people we can truly trust, is people like you!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:13 AM

Well it sounds good Freda but let's have a look more closely.

I work in an area that liaises with people of different ethnic backgrounds, to respond to racist attacks against them, to work constructively in tense situations, and to brief politicians on issues effecting people of different backgrounds.

I trust when you write effecting people of different backgrounds you include the indegenous population, or are their concerns not legitimate?

People who are explaining should never be accepted, um, interesting viewpoint, you don't write people who are attacking, you use the explaining and then dismiss it.

divide rather rather than heal I wasn't aware that heal was the opposite of divide, what the heck, let's go with it. If a doctor wants to heal someone he generally, one would hope, examines what is wrong before he attempts to prescribe a course of action.

What worries me with your post, as with many of the posts here, is the assumption that certain topics are off limits. They are not.
Elseware on this board I have indicated many times that we should not attack all muslims, it's simply wrong, but that does not mean that we shouldn't discuss the fact that Islam has a problem, don't believe me, read this weeks reports from the Algerian press, the Egyptian press, Al Jazeera (sp?) etc.

I think we should discuss such things, if ignorant bigotted scum want to make racist remarks I will support you in opposing it 100% but if they have something real to say on the matter that's fine.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:53 AM

I work in an area that liaises with people of different ethnic backgrounds, to respond to racist attacks against them, to work constructively in tense situations, and to brief politicians on issues effecting people of different backgrounds.

In every situation where there are differences, we choose how to respond. There are always people in every community that seek to divide, and those that seek to understand and unite. And those that divide are big on "explaining" why "other" people are different and can and should never be accepted. we even have a couple of regulars (the BNP guy and now Robert Price) who come to threads such as this and seek to divide rather than heal. I see them as the other side of the coin to the people they are criticising. The only different is the haircuts.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:31 AM

El Grecko, I think you are vastly overstating the case. I have been going to both countries since '74, I have been married to a Flemish Belgian since '76.

It's true that there is some tension in Antwerp however this is in large part due to the fact that it (Antwerp) gets invaded each weekend by many Dutch young people who are rather noisy and boisterous, not to say a little arrogant. One thing it does show is that the Dutch know a wonderful city when they see one.

Whatever tensions do exist they pale into nothing when compared with the Flemish / Waloon divide though even this has become more civilised in recent years.

I speak fluent Dutch, have many Dutch and Belgian friends, I just don't recognise the picture you paint.

Groetjes
Shakey

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Robert Price
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:24 AM

Yes, i wouldn't even call it research to be fair, i simply searched for verses from the Koran, and let the passages do the talking. It amounts to a vile assemble of hatred i found that spewed from the pages of that so-called 'scripture'.

What other word than hateful can describe the following passages,

Sura 9:5 - "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters (non-Muslims) wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent (convert) and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."

Surah 5:51 - Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend

Surah 5:38 - Stealing is punished by the amputation of the hands

Surah 5:33 - Resisting Islam is punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the hands and feet

Surah 9:29 - Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam

Surah 24:2 - Adultery is punished by public flogging

Surah 55:54-56 - Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins.

Woman Stoned in name of 'peaceful islam'
http://www.bibleprobe.com/stoning-tn.jpg

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:15 AM

Yo, Robert Price...

I included "even yer composition" of cut and paste quotes... See, alot of folks here just willy-nilly will take entire cut and paste assemblages and post them... I don't mind if someone wants to do the research and assemble a number of quotes but there have been way too many folks who just let others do that work for them... Unfortunately, manytimes, theses compositions come from one particulat well funded organization or another with a particular axe to grind and what happens in discussions is that folks tend to let the organizations do the discussing...

Now that can be fine but since this is supposed to be a discussion forum, a few of the posters own ideas never hurts...

And, excuse me, Part 2, if these quotes are quotes that you actually researched and assembed into the the above composition....

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:08 AM

Agree, Jon - horrible. And the cause looks like colour-hate rather than anything else. Apparently they have made an arrest; I hope they throw the key away.

Shakey,
I did indeed mean the Dutch-Flemish divide (not the Flemish-Waloon one). And there definitely is one; ask in Antwerp or Gent what they think of their Dutch cousins. And remember always the Belgian character that avoids direct confrontation at first at least. You often need to spend a lot of time with the Flemish before they will open up on subjects like this. Typically, Flemish jokes about the Dutch abound (my favorite one is the one about the cows with the wooden legs, alluding to Dutch stingyness). The Flemish dislike of the Dutch runs deep - it may not be obvious at first, but is none weaker for that.

On the other hand, the Dutch generally have a disdain for all Belgians, not specific to Waloons or Flemish. Perhaps they do consider the Flemish "cousins", but they don't really make any allowances for that in their feelings.

I am generalising here, of course, and there are sensible people in both countries, who are above all that, the same as in the rest of the world. I am referring to the overall atmosphere of mistrust.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:56 AM

A particulary nasty bit of racism happened in Mersyside this weekend (see here).

It doesn't seem to me as if Islam or any other scripture had anything to do with it....

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:40 AM

El Grecko writes:

...in BeNeLux, with Dutch and Belgians (who actually have a deeper mistrust of each other than the Greeks and Turks) in 1990-93

Did you mean this, or are you referring to the friction between the Dutch (Flemish speaking Belgians and the French (Waloons) speakers.

If you did mean what you say, then I'm sorry, it's nonsense. I lived for ten years in Holland and ten years in Belgium.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Robert Price
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 04:28 AM

Silly sod, of course they are not my words, that is why they are Quotes. Quotes, you know...quotes....? and...i think these quotes say it all.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:20 PM

Nice cut and paste, GUEST, Robert Prince... Now perhaps you'd like to chime in in yer own words and not those of others, please...

Bobert

p.s. Firgive me if these are yer words or even yer composition of quotes but it seems a little on the cut and paste side....

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Robert Price
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:43 PM

"We have to give a sacrifice.. and the sacrifice I'm talking about is the blood sacrifice.. We have people with Kalashnikovs.. and you declare Jihad against the Kufr.. Get training.. there must be some martial arts brothers amongst yourselves.. you have to pump into the brothers that.. what are you training for? It's so you can get the Kufr and.. crush his head in your arms.. so you can wring his throat.. so you can whip his intestines out... That's why your doing training… to rip the people to pieces. Forget waiting a bullet on them – Cut them in half!" - Britain's Muslim Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Masri


"The life of estrangement will lead… to [a] change in the situation of the country in which we live, as the Muslims changed the situation in Abyssinia and Indonesia. Allah willing, we will transform the West into Dar Al-Islam [that is, a region under Islamic rule] by means of invasion from without. If an Islamic state arises and invades [the West] we will be its army and its soldiers from within. If not, [we will change the West] through ideological invasion from here, without war and killing." - Britain's Muslim Shaikh Omar Bakri Mohammad, London-based daily Al-Hayat


"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant . . . The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad of the Council on American Islamic Relations


"I consider this type of martyrdom operation (suicide bombing) as an indication of the justice of Allah Almighty. Allah Almighty is just – through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak what the strong do not possess and that is the ability to turn their bodies into bombs like the Palestinians do." - Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, London -BBC Newsnight, July 7 2004


"We will fight for Osama Bin Laden and Islam, not for Queen and country."

"We will continue our struggle until the flag of Islam flies over 10 Downing Street."

Both said by Abu Haq, spokesman for Al Muhajiroun, speaking on Radio 2's Jimmy Young programme, 31st October 2001.


"I always say I would like to see the Islamic flag over 10 Downing Street. It's my dream over the whole world." - Britain's cleric Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammed, April 4, 2004, The Independent


Surah 2:228 - Men are superior to women

Surah 2:282 - Women have half the rights of men: in court witness and in inheritance Surah 2:223 A wife is a sex object for her husband

Surah 4:43 - A man may punish his wife by beating her
Surah 4:3 - A man may marry up to four wives at the same time

Sura 9:30 "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, "Ezra is a son of God"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is a son of God." Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the saying of the infidels of old! God do battle with them!

Sura 9:5 - "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters (non-Muslims) wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent (convert) and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful."

Surah 5:51 - Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend

Surah 5:38 - Stealing is punished by the amputation of the hands

Surah 5:33 - Resisting Islam is punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the hands and feet

Surah 9:29 - Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam

Surah 24:2 - Adultery is punished by public flogging

Surah 55:54-56 - Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins.

Woman Stoned in name of 'peaceful islam'
http://www.bibleprobe.com/stoning-tn.jpg

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 09:36 PM

I don't see pushin' diversity as the wrong thing to be doin'... Quite the opposite... We've seen the alternative and it wasn't very pretty!!!

Yeah, I hear a lot of white folks sayin' the same thing... "Awww, lets just move on, nuthin' to see here..." But5, there is something to see here and that is that black folks have been playin' on an unlevel palyin' field going back a long, long time... Yeah, go to any city in the United Sate4s and you can find ghettoes of predominant6ly black folks who have been coraled up into housin' projects with kids livin' like kids live in 3rd World countries!!!

Don't believe me? Go check it out fir yerself 'er come to Washington, D.C. for a personalized Bobert tour...

Yeah, it sure is nice fir white folks to throw up their arms and say "Hey, I ain't responsible fir this. Why should I care 'bout what my grand-daddy did?"....

Well, fir one, those of you who might have that opinion, you are living in a country whose wealth was created disporportionately on the backs of black slaves and descendents of slaves. You were not there to create this infastrcture or this wealth but you were lucky enough to be born to a family who has benefited form it. You are a benefactor and being so you *owe* something to the folks who weren't as lucky as you to be born into "white" families...

And secondly, or is it thirdly, acceptin' a collective responsiblity fir the past is the least that a country that has been built on the backs of slaves and descendats of slaves, can go a long way toward a healing/repairation process that is so long, long overdue...

Bobert

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 05:35 PM

Truth, science and education are what we need in our schools and in our society, not faith, prejudice, manipulation, myth, and lies.

And therein lies the key to the future. But organised religion will never let it happen alas. It is the biggest threat to the 21st century.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM

azizi,well put.
this day and age,the powers that be are telling us we have to imbrace diversity.why.that issue is what they are using to splitt us apart.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 04:41 PM

I just found an interesting discussion on race HERE .

Here are some excerpts from that discussion:

as the NYTimes Ed Board points out, race is not an easily described concept genetically:


"[A]t Pennsylvania State University, where about 90 students took complex genetic screening tests that compared their samples with those of four regional groups . . . [m]any of these students thought of themselves as "100 percent" white or black or something else, but only a tiny fraction of them, as it turned out, actually fell into that category. Most learned instead that they shared genetic markers with people of different skin colors.

Ostensibly "black" subjects, for example, found that as much as half of their genetic material came from Europe, with some coming from Asia as well. One "white" student learned that 14 percent of his DNA came from Africa - and 6 percent from East Asia. The student told The Daily Collegian, the student newspaper, earlier this year: "When I got my results I was like, there's no way they were mine. I thought it was just an example of what the test was supposed to look like. Then I was like, Oh my God, that's me."..."

-snip-

"Ramblings of a pediatrician.

In my job, I have to make a statement of the race of children. It grinds me to no end, for the reasons raised, and for others, which I will not get into. Maybe another day on that last.

It has been suggested to me "not to worry about it, just use the race of the child's mother." Talk about begging the question.

The argument goes that we need to classify people in order to compile data, to calculate whether or not races are treated equally? Maybe that is valid, as long as classifying them doesn't lead to discrimination, which I think it sometimes does.

As a doctor, I recognize that certain genetic conditions vary according to race, and that these variations can result in an increased risk of certain diseases, and now we actually have one medication which seems to have different actions which can be correlated with "race". But those questions, to this point, are almost never an issue.

But in spite of this, I come back to the question of how one determines race without taking a complete genetic history (which is often impossible or very time consuming and usually incomplete, inaccure or downright false); and in pursuing that thought, I get boggled by the issue of trying to determine whether someone is 12.5% or 8.33% (% of what?) white, black, brown, or yellow, I realize that this effort is hopeless. Further, for some purposes, one cannot classify a person successfully just by doing a family history. Certain races demand phenotypic (appearance) purity for membership.

The question for a doctor treating a child is increasingly going to be not what the mother thinks her own race is, but what the child's DNA says at certain loci that control certain synthetic/metabolic pathways. A self-described brown person can have a "white gene."

Which raises the issue of consequences of medical treatment: What will happen to a "white" person if it is revealed by her medication that he/she has a "black" gene? Will certain races demand genetic "purity' as well as pure racial appearance, for membership?

Too much information. Isn't it tempting to just get rid of all attempts to classify racially?

But we can't deny discrimination still exists....what would happen to efforts to prevent discrimination, if we drop all racial descriptors? What about proving voter intimidation, what about being able to document "separate but equal?"

I don't have any easy answers but I do know that the more we can educate our kids about what makes up our genes and how they mutate and vary and that all of us are polyglots, the better off we will be.

Truth, science and education are what we need in our schools and in our society, not faith, prejudice, manipulation, myth, and lies.

Just a pediatrician's ramblings."

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM

no..Shambleism is the problem...Shambleitis is the affliction.

The condition is studied by Shambletonians. ('race' experts ;>)

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:12 PM

how to end it,stop happing on it and reminding people about it.
the more you push it the more it is seen and not always in the best light.
the more you dwell on race the more it is used to split peoples apart.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:32 PM

I confess, I am afflicted by the condition

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:27 PM

That's blatant shambelism.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:16 PM

For Gawd's sake, don't tell Shambles...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:31 PM

Ha! Unless I was hallucinating, this thread was "upstairs" when I began writing my response, but suddenly moved down to BS by the time I posted. Someone else must have been thinnking the same as me, at the very same time...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:29 PM

Why is this not "BS"? Because BS didn't exist when it was started on 02 Feb 03?

For the record, I am among those who believe that increased understanding is an antedote to racism, probably the only one. Would recism disappear completely if everyone in the world achieved perfect understanding? Of course it would ~ but I'm not holding my breath...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

Ringer, you're mixing arguments. "Promotes less racism" is not the same as "To understand everything is to be completely non-racist". They are two distinctly different propositions. And while I agree with you that the latter is idealistic and ignores human nature, I do support the former view.

The explanation is simple, and has effectively already been given above: One of the causes of racism is fear and mistrust. Understanding (and education) reduces that mistrust and fear and therefore works towards eliminating one of the causes of racism. It doesn't wipe it out, it doesn't eradicate it - but it does reduce it.

I have personal experience of this from my own early contacts with Turkish colleagues (being Greek myself, and therefore taught at school to fear and mistrust the Turks). As I got to know them better that mistrust eventually disappeared, to the point where I felt very comfortable visiting Istanbul some 70-80 times and living there a total of 1 year or more (albeit in bits).

This made me think. And later I used it very effectively in forging together single teams:
a) In BeNeLux, with Dutch and Belgians (who actually have a deeper mistrust of each other than the Greeks and Turks) in 1990-93. 80 people working happily with each other, cooperating, recognising and using each other's strengths and covering for each other's weaknesses. That work environment "union" led to a number of cross-border friendships and 2 marriages!
b) in the East Mediterranean, I repeated this with the Greek, Turkish and Cypriot teams in 1996-98.

The process involved getting them to spend time together. Not just in meetings, but also in day-long (and week-long) workshops; and getting them to work in each other's offices, deal with each other's customers and each other's problems. They soon realised that their common points were many more thatn the differences. Then they lowered their guard enough to start understanding those differences and their causes. Within a year they were proud to be spearheading a cross-border unification that preceded the company's overall efforts (in the case of BeNeLux) or any friendly overtures by governments (in the case of Greece-Turkey).

There's your proof. I can give you names, telephone numbers, email addresses for cross-checking - I still keep in touch with many of them, and they would gladly confirm the above facts.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:15 PM

Is there any evidence that "understanding" promotes less racism? The opening post on this thread said, "we can easily end racism through understanding and education."

Myself, I don't believe it. Whoever said (I think it was a Frenchman) "To understand everything is to forgive everything" was talking through his hat, and to say "To understand everything is to be completely non-racist" knows, imo, little about human nature.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:56 AM

In Sydney, there is an education program called "The Goodness and Kindness campaign". A priest, a rabbi and a mufti go as a threesome to high schools, sharing with the kids about their religions, the similarities and differences.

This is a great example of a positive program for understanding.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:48 AM

A big 10-4 on that one, 'Zizi. The Big Brains left out one key ingredient. Personal integrity, compassion and intelligence can cure racism. These are spiritual values, though, so they wouldn't know about that, I reckon.


A

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:46 AM

agreed, Azizi.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:39 AM

Electric shocks to end racism? No thanks.

Increased interactions with people of other races/ethnicities-Yes.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM

Racial fear banished by closer contact; By Deborah Smith Science Editor July 30, 2005, sydney morning herald

By treating men and women like Pavlov's dogs, and giving them electric shocks while they looked at pictures of black and white men, researchers have unravelled our innate and learnt reactions to race.
We have evolved to fear people from a different group to our own, in the same way they we fear spiders and snakes, it was found. But close contact can help counter this inherent fear.

Arne Ohman, of the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, said the findings were important in an age of terrorism, when worries about the threat from "evil others" loomed large in the minds of many. "To help cope with this situation we need a scientific understanding of the emotional dynamics of intergroup conflicts." Recognising that humans were prone to fearing, avoiding and demonising people outside their own group, but that close contact could reduce this effect, might help combat the development of "emotionally charged stereotypes" that fed the fear, Dr Ohman said.

The notion that some primeval fears have become hard-wired in humans during millions of years of evolution is suggested by the fact that people tend to hate creepy-crawly insects, yet don't fear cars, which kill a lot more people. For the latest study, which was published yesterday in the journal Science, young black and white Americans living in New York were given electric shocks when they looked at pictures of spiders, snakes, birds, butterflies and black and white faces with neutral expressions. Like Pavlov's dogs, which learnt to salivate at the sound of a bell, they developed a fear of all these creatures.

When the electric shocks were stopped, people's fear of birds, butterflies and faces the same colour as their own quickly vanished, but they remained scared of snakes, spiders and faces of a different race. Humans have only evolved into distinct races in the past 100,000 years. Like a car, this was too recent for a fear of race per se to have evolved, the researchers said. Rather, humans would have evolved a fear of outsiders. Attitudes to race were then learnt and imposed on top of this.

The study also found that those who had dated people from the other race let go of their fears of these people more easily, once the electric shocks were stopped. "The optimistic news is that this predisposition to fear members of another race may be changed by close personal contact," said Mahzarin Banaji, a member of the research team at Harvard University.

"We are products of our evolutionary history and our immediate social environment. The former we don't control, the latter we certainly do."

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Sam L
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 05:45 PM

As I said on the last version of this thread, I think maybe racial hatred is more about hatred than race. The things that make people unhappy and lost will find objects to strike at.
   There's still bias without hatred, but I think that's laziness, and it still adds up to significant, predictable, harm. It becomes a Usual Suspect, and is worth rounding up, interrogating, keeping an eye on.

Cluin reminds me of a misfortune ( my daughter and I make misfortune cookies)--All the people you feel superior to will suddenly die.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 04:06 PM

You can dig around in human variation (let's avoid difference) and it is absolutley fascinating how people have changed since we left Africa. But them Nazis killed lots of people who looked pretty much like them as well as others who looked a little different.

Racism = Prejudice + Power

The equation needs both.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:24 PM

Perhaps it's an inherent human need and racism is just another version of tribal in-group thinking we're all saddled with. It could be "racial", or it could be geographic, ligual, socio-political, philosophical, religious, economic, etc. differences that balkanize our global identities.

Like Kris Kristofferson sang:

Everybody's got to have somebody to look down on
Someone they feel better than at any time they choose
Someone doing something dirty decent folks can frown on
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me

That's why the Jerry Springer Show is so popular, isn't it?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Frankham
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM

Also, there is the study of genotypes. This would be cultural and physical characteristics together. They can give us insight into how certain people with similar characteristics will behave under certain environmental conditions. A genotype might be a Norwegian propensity for blonde blue eyes and large bone structure. Under certain clinical conditions, this information might be useful. As a general concept applied to all aspects of culture including what constitutes "racism", maybe not so helpful.

I think there is a built-in tendency toward "racism", "violence" or "addiction" but as homo sapiens, we might have been biologically equipped to deal with their negative aspects.

Just an opinion. Can't verify it scientifically.

Frank

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 10:18 AM

Actually, it does have a scientific application. Tracking the flow of hereditary traits, especially such simple ones as control some factors of appearance, can tell an anthropologist a great deal about the flow of people. For example, the Negrito hunter-gatherers of China are very distinct from the majority Chinese population. However, they share many physical traits with the people of some Indonesian islands. This, along with linguistic information, can tell anthropologists not only where the Austronesian and Hanese racial groups moved, but when, and under what motivating force. This is not necessarily dividing into races, but it is a division based in large part on physical traits.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:51 AM

If you walked from Kerry to Capetown or Vladivostock (with the odd boat ride on the way, you'd see people changing all the way, but in a gradual kind of way. (McGrath)

Just for the fun of it, let's apply this type of argumentation to colours. Well, if you gradually 'walk' (you could do it with your computer) the colour scale from barely visible deep purple to barely visible dark red you'll see easily that there are no clear boundaries but only a gradual kind of change. So the concept of distinct colours has outlived its usefullness and we should give up using words describing different colours.

However, as for scientific application, I concur with McGrath. Same as in science words like 'red' and 'blue' are hardly used anymore (except in communication with nonscientists) since the knowledge about the underlying wavelengths was available, the concept of 'races' with its very crude and often varying definitions isn't usefull any longer since we know about differences describable in genetic terms.

And, BTW, an unbiased observer walking actually from Kerry to Capetown couldn't miss the fact that the gradient of change was much steeper for a few hundred miles of her walk, e.g. from the North of Tchad to the south of Tchad. Most of the whole change on the way would come within quite a small area south of Sahara.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:32 AM

I would assume that it has a useful scientific application

I would question that very much, and I think most modern anthropologists would as well. People vary, but not in great quantum leaps like that - they are artifacts created by vastly increased access from one part of the world to another, and by artificial mass movements of population, such as the slave trade and the American migration.

If you walked from Kerry to Capetown or Vladivostock (with the odd boat ride on the way, you'd see people changing all the way, but in a gradual kind of way.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bugsy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:27 AM

Indescriminate Shagging. That should fix it in about 5 generations. Plus it will bring us all a lot closer.


Cheers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:34 PM

We are all basically social animals, ON A SMALL SCALE. Once you start looking at people you don't know, humans by nature start becoming xenophobic. Racism is the most convenient way to differentiate people, because a "black" looks different than a "white" or a "Hispanic." The concept of races, outside ethnography and anthropology, is just a fiction useful for making categories. If we eliminate the idea of races, we might start using nationalities again, or political ideologies. People will discriminate, and there isn't much that can be done about it.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM

Frankham-
No, but abolishing religion would get rid of Crusades and Jihads.

If racism disappeared, there'd still be prejudice against foreigners, or banjo players, or short people or whatever. People are always looking for someone else to blame.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Frankham
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:16 PM

Dick,

The only sure way to end racism is to abolish race. the same way that the only sure way to end crime is to make everything legal."

Funny :) Does this mean if we abolish religion, we can make people holy? :)

I think I go with McGrath on this one. Race is a concept created by anthropologists. Caucasion, Negroid, Mongoloid etc. and I would assume that it has a useful scientific application. "Racism" however is a different thing altogether.

"Racism" may have more to do with cultural bias than race itself.

One great healer is music. It can bring people together. (Unless it's some musicians on a gig fighting about what chords to use or who is keeping time. :)) One of the reasons I got into folk music to begin with is it's social healing power...by this I mean bringing people together from different cultures. Of course there is a tendency in some folks with certain musical interests to exclude others. Even so, in my experience when musicians from different cultures get together, or people who share songs from different places congregate, the walls generally come down. Music is pretty much something that everyone can understand to some degree regardless of where it comes from. Even when we make arbitrary names up for it such as "traditional" or "folk" or "commercial" or "pop" etc.

I think if we dig deep enough in all of us, there might be elements of "racism" that we haven't learned to come to terms with. They might even be on an unconscious level. But regardless, there's something about the power of music that transcends this in my humble opinion. It highlights the fact that we're all human and are basically social animals (otherwise we would have been extinct long ago.)

This is one of the reasons that I think folk music is so important.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

But what if the "clannish behaviour" is an inherent part of their "culture"?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: CraigS
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM

There is a way to abolish racism, which is to abolish all groups which practice clannish behaviour, right up to the nation level. It won't work - it leads to secret societies. Where is the healthy balance? It is not in Islam, because Islam is intended as a way of life, and includes a legal system intended for 1200 years ago. Who in his right mind would sanction cutting pieces off people and stoning them to death? The only people I can think of are the Son of a Bush and the mad Islamists! maybe that's why they can't see each other's point of view!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM

" What difference does it make who started a thread or why?".....well, like Burke says.....

*shrug*...I have no objection to a serious discussion of racism, I just get tired of mindless repetition, like those holding up those signs at sporting events with a bible verse noted.

Must be the curmudgeon in me....

(I have several pet issues, myself....population control, for example...and traffic problems...and immigration policies.....shall I do a monthly 'leafleting' here? )

I try to bring up my issues in a context, not just gratuitous posting because I can.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM

Slavery, horrible as it always is, normally has little to do with "race". Slaves in Roman times, for example would have come in all colours, and so would slaveowners, and that would have been true in most societies where slavery has existed, or where it continues.

The peculiar feature of slavery as it was invented in the wake of the European seizure of America, and more especially in the territory of the United States, was that slavery became totally tied in with notions about colour and "race".

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Burke
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

A monthly post, apparently.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Allan Dennehy
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:02 PM

We have a lot of racisism in Denmark. Maybe its got something to do with the fact that 70 per cent of our rapes and a huge proportion of our crime is committed by foreigners and their children. Or when our annual gay pride parade gets attacked with bricks and bottles by fundamentalistic morons who should never have been allowed to move here in the first place.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:55 PM

Isn't there slavery currently practised in the Sudan to this day which is under nominal Islamic rule?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:36 PM

True, McGrath. We are one human race, period.

There's some interesting stuff in the movie "Gangs of New York" about racism...mostly aimed at the Irish immigrants, and also at the blacks in 1800's New York City (and elsewhere).

- LH

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:06 PM

It shouldn't be too hard in principle to abolish "race" because it doesn't really exist in the sense that it's been sold to us, with the idea being that humanity is made up of a fairly small bunch of "races". It's just not true.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Sam L
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM

I think most racism IS a kind of laziness. It can get all worked up and industrious, sure, but basically it's roots are laziness. It's easier to get a cartoon impression of a person, of one sort or another, than to try to see and know them. I also agree with that Orc up there--one doesn't have to have any racist ideas to be a racist, all they have to do is cop out, do the easier thing, not go a little out of their way. People with good intentions predictably cop-out when making decisions involving race.
   Same with sexism. When it gets down to the short strokes race and gender bias acts a lot like bias about people who aren't especially attractive, which is a real bias too. When are we all going to suddenly have more time and energy and interest in getting up everyday and being more thoughtful, alert, and intent on being fair, in making friends, extending trust, in all ways, in everything we do. Sometimes we're too tired, too afraid, too busy. I think it's not very easy to do, and it doesn't get done by "just" doing or thinking any one particular thing, especially not patting oneself on the back for having ideals.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

The only sure way te end racism is to abolish race. the same way that the only sure way to end crime is to make everything legal.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:28 PM

So what Bill D? What difference does it make who started a thread or why, once it's picked up some momentum of its own?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM

Little Hawk is right.

I have problems with that laziness thing too...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 04:12 PM

the individual who started this thread...and the other one, is not interest in discussions...they are merely nailing leaflets to trees...making the rounds. This week it was our turn again...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:03 PM

Racism = Prejudice + Power

There is only one race, the human race, hoever racism rolls around the aboive connection. Th Nazis persecuted all kinds of people, most of them were probably indistinguishable(?) from local germans.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:37 AM

What is strange is this idea that colour is a particularly significant difference, so that it overrides the more inportant similarities and the more important differences.

So you can get people abroad who see foreigners with a comnpletely different culture as being more similar to them than neighbours from their own home town, just because of skin pigment. That's what I mean by saying "racism" isn't same as xenophobia.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:33 AM

We wpn't end racism until we end ingorance. The end of ignorance does not seem imminent.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:20 AM

Ah, but what kind of tea? Oolong? Earl Grey? Green tea? Herbal?

The socio-political ramifications are legion. The mind boggles. The centre cannot hold. The gyres do gimble and wabe...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Hrothgar
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:41 AM

Somebody said that the world will be happier when we are all the colour of tea.

I doubt it, though. Some fools will find some other difference as a basis for discrimination.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 01:24 AM

There's only one way to end racism. End it in yourself.

That's how you end laziness too. I haven't done too well with that, I'm afraid. (sigh)

- LH

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:59 AM

It pains me, but I must speak out for Islam. The first muezzin appointed by Mohammed was a Nigerian, presumably black. An Algerian I once know was white as paper. His darkest blood relative could be called purple.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:35 PM

Sexism is much harder, because there are definite differences between the sexes. Men can't get pregnant. This single factor has affected not only human society, but biology as well (the reason men don't breastfeed, tend towards greater muscle mass and lower fat, and age faster). The only way to eliminate sexism would be to eliminate the differences between the sexes. Seeing a pattern here?

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:47 PM

Yeah, yeah, we heard you last time. Islam has no racism. Right. Sure. Exact same post. Word for word.

You still haven't told us how to end sexism though.

Whatever... you obviously didn't read the follow-up posts then and you won't read them now.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:35 PM

The ancient Romans were devoid of racism. A black man (moor, at any rate) was once emperor (briefly). That squelches that argument. Marco Polo reported that the Chinese weren't racist as long as you adopted their language and culture.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:07 PM

Statistically, the amount of genetic material that is DIFFERENT among the races of homo sap is so minute as to be undetectable compared to the amount of material that is the same from race to race.

Biology by this reasoning does NOT account for racism. Why are those who invest so much energy rejecting differences, not spending as much or more celebrating similarities? (Not that it would be any more rational, but it would at least be better for the species as a whole).

A

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:50 PM

No, it's not biological. People who have been adopted by parents of a different race, and have grown up among people who are of their adoptive parents' race, find that race, not their own, to be the standard. Many studies have shown that it's what you grow up with, not what you are born with, that determines your outlook as far as racial stereotyping. It does, however, come from xenophobia, which has biological roots. It's simply a matter of seeing that someone else is different from you, and distrusting that difference.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:38 PM

I thought it was an inoffensive post with some good things in it. No reason to attack his/her religion. I think, from a biological perspective, that racism does have biological roots, and it has to do with grandparents wanting descendants that look like them. Given that as a theory, it should be easy mathematically to see if the most racist behavior comes from those with the most recessive genes, who would lose their traits the easiest. mg

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: stevetheORC
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:01 PM

The only way to end racism is to end the human race, people will always be envious of what others have and will always want scapegoats for all their woes. The name raceism may be a fairly new thing but the underlying feelings have been there for a bloody long time.
I defy any one to say that they have never thought/felt or made a little racist comment/joke/observation at one time or another.
Most of us are just bloody good at controlling these emotions/feelings/thoughts etc.

Sorry about the rant but I hate you all equaly therfore I can not be a racist:-))

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:57 PM

OTOH, McG, some people can recognise a sharp pointy stick when it's being poked in their direction, & couldn't give a toss what tree it originally came off of... ;)

You know as well as I do that people that start their arguments in this fashion aren't, as a rule, on the side of unequivocal tolerance.

Whereas I'm on the side of unequivocal tolerance, regardless of colour, creed, or sporting affiliation, always allowing for the shooting of nutballs & Man U fans... ;) *g*

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Cobble
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:41 PM

Guest
These verses you quote come from the old testament, Written thousands of years before your Islam was ever thought of. Your lot came along 700 years after Christ died. GET A BOOK OR STORY OF YOUR OWN.

          A Pagan Cobble.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM

Some people see an olive branch as something for hitting other people over the head with.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,God
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:55 PM

Oooo ... the children are fighting again ... sigh ...

YYYYYAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNN

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:49 PM

"People must realize that God created all humans from one couple..."

Bollocks. I don't believe in your god, I don't believe in your version of creationism/evolution/genetics, either.

Where does that leave your entire argument? In La-la-land, that's where. Don't offer me your religion, I won't offer you mine. Don't moralise over me, I won't moralise over you...

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

There's fear of strangers, of outsiders who are different, and one name for that is xenophobia, and it probably goes way back, and is always liable to crop up again; but racism is something different.

It's racism when you get people living in the same place, speaking the same language and even with the same religion, and yet they see the colour of their neighbours skin as a significant kind of difference.

And that isn't something inbuilt or natural. It's a highly unatural distorted vision of humanity. And it's pretty recent in terms of human history, a few hundred yesars.

"Racism" has been developed in a few cultures, as an underpinning for slavery and colonial empires. It's even been given a pseudo-scientific rationale, which talks in terms of a few totally discrete "races", rather than in a continuous spectrum of numerous slight variations.

I think that it'll be possible to get rid of that distorted vision, and the racism, that springs from it, even if that doesn't mean there won't be antagonism when people with different ways of life rub up against each other.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,God
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:00 PM

A rose by any other name would ... hmmm ... still have thorns!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: mooman
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Bee-dubya-ell,

You're right regarding Taoism and Buddhism and that's 2500+ years! And I agree with your premise too regarding the essence of the major theistic religions you mention.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:51 PM

Yes, the teachings of Islam can inspire racial harmony. So can the teachings of Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism. It's not a matter of the teachings. It's a matter of the practice to which the teachings are put. The great irony inherent in these religions is that they can be used to inspire love, peace and brotherhood or hate, war and bigotry depending on who is doing the interpreting. Personally, I prefer the teachings that don't espouse a personalized supreme being. It's harder to think God is on your side if you don't claim to know what God is in the first place. As far as I know, there's never been a Buddhist or Taoist holy war.

Bruce

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,God
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:48 PM

I HEARD THAT AMOS!

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:35 PM

As long as the idea of races exists, there will be racists. Some people will always associate "different" with "bad," and we would no longer be human if this were not true. Better, perhaps, but not human.

In order to eliminate racism, races will have to disappear. Since there are currently ways to distinguish between races based on physicaln appearance, this would need to go before the concept of races goes away. There are two ways to do this: Genocide, to eliminate all but one racial appearance, or blending to the point of conformity. While the first is clearly far worse than today's racism, the second would herald a lack of cultural diversity as well. Further, it would have to proceed to the point where no definable differences exist between people, or appearance categorization would continue. This is also not an acceptable solution, in my opinion.

The concept of eliminating racism through acceptance of a single religion's doctrine is actually rather frightening. Religious disputes have caused far more strife throughout world history than racism could even conceive of. Any belief which says "Everyone MUST accept others" is teetering on the brink of a long, ugly fall into hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:48 AM

Thanks, GUEST Talal, for a post obviously too thoughtful for some in this forum. Why some respondents lurk in the shadows with an eye toward discrediting sincerity is beyond me. Have recent events so embittered us that we look suspiciously on someone trying to discuss an end to racism? Or are we enjoying our cynicism and anger a little too much? Whether you wish to recognize it or not, the original post is quite accurate about the founding principles of Islam. That it has been so poorly executed in many Muslim countries is hardly the fault of its scripture. The founding principles of American democracy, so reverantly cited by so many, are equally indetectable on the streets today. Those who have responded to this apparently sincere declaration merely demonstrate how mean-spirited we have become, and how necessary it is for idealists to reach for something better.

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 09:48 AM

Any approach to the problem that starts with "people must realize...." is a recipe for more racism, not less. Rest assured when I want to know the mind of God, I am sure as hell not going to try and trwal it out of an online forum.

A

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Richie
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:49 AM

If I remember correctly, wasn't this exact topic posted about two months ago. And if so why was it posted again?

-Richie

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: stevetheORC
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:53 AM

Kill Everyone

ORC'S know best

Subject: RE: How to End Racism
From: Mugwump
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM

What a load of tosh!!!

Subject: How to End Racism
From: GUEST,Talal
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 04:12 AM

How to End Racism
            Recent events remind us that racism remains rampant. Yet we can easily end racism through understanding and education.

            People must realize that God created all humans from one couple, thus making the entire human race one large extended family. God says:" O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve); and from the two of them He spread abroad a multitude of men and women" (Qur'an 4:1).

            Furthermore, we must understand that no race is superior to another. We appreciate a garden having many different flowers because we realize that each adds something to the beauty of the entire arrangement. This is why we do not object to the color of any flower. In a similar way we can see the world as a garden decorated with people of different colors. Let us appreciate that each variety of people contributes something to the spice of life in this world. God says:" O mankind! We have created you male and female , and have made you nations and tribes that you may know each other. Verily, (start w/this word). The noblest of you in the sight of Allah*, is the most pious (righteous) of you" (Qur'an 49:13).

            The noblest are the most obedient to God. Such persons may belong to nay race or country. What really matters is their conduct and behavior. The prophet Mohammad* publicly declared that Arabs are not superior to non-Arabs, and one color is not superior to another. In a day when light-skinned people could not imagine a black person as their leader, the prophet appointed a black person Usaamah, the son of zaid, as a leader.

            As a result of following these teachings, many people have banished racism from their thoughts and actions. You can still see racial harmony today in the mosques of cosmopolitan cities. You will find people of various colors worshipping together, all with equal status before God. Rich or poor, black or white, kind or pauper all line up side by side to worship. No special preference is given to anyone based on color or social status. The leader in a mosque is appointed for his learning in the religious sciences, regardless of skin color. There is no such concept as a 'black mosque' or 'white mosque'. Islam removes such destructive concepts.