BS: Response to Tragedies

Subject: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:20 AM

I am as sad as anyone about the deaths of the shuttle astronauts. However, I would like to put it in perspective, a little. Yes, such public deaths are tragic. But while seven people died this time, thousands of people die daily under tragic circumstances, too. And much of those circumstances are caused either by thoughtful human intent, or at least negligence. And while these people may not have been "newsworthy" their lives were nonetheless important to someone. Even suicide cases with no family or friends matter. Making them allthemore tragic is that they are so totally preventable.

-How many people are killed every day in totally preventable car crashes due to drinking, cell phones, or other distractions or negligent manufacturing procedures of the vehicles?

-How many people are killed every day from workplace dangers that should not exist?

-How many already-born children die from direct abuse or mortal neglect from their parents?

-How many already-born children die from being pressed into military service by those who should be their protectors?

-How many people are killed every day due to environmental conditions that should be corrected or avoided in the first place?

-How many performers "die" on stage when they should have rehearsed more effectively or not have even been there in the first place?

So I do not mean to minimize the significance of the deaths of the astronauts or suggest that anyone cut short their mourning period. I mean to elevate the significance of the other deaths, and suggest our less notable brothers and sisters deserve attention, too.

History may be written by the rich and powerful. But it is made by the regular folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 10:24 AM

Saul:

Statistically your perspective is irrefutable, of course.

But in my own mind the death of astronauts is qualitatively a different order of magnitude than the deaths of sales managers, housewives, floor sales specialists, insurance underwriters, electric mandeola stars, sanitation engineering vehicle navigators, taxi-dancers, and advice-column writers.

These people were ASTRONAUTS.

There IS a difference.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: GUEST,Johnny
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:07 AM

I agree with Amos and Saul both. I would also say, this doesn't seem to be a peculiarly American syndrome, as we also witnessed an over the top hysteria with the death of Princess Diana too. The media propaganda campaigns to heroicize those who die spectacular deaths, not only desensitizes us to the deaths of truly extraordinary people who have done truly extraordinary things (like the astronauts), but it also creates this bizarre series of public rituals of mourning for either the celebrity (in Diana's case, for instance) or the celebritized everyman (as in the 9/11 attacks), who becomes famous/infamous in death by the mere fact of it.

I don't know what the answer is, because I believe this is being driven mostly by the unprecedented amount of media coverage these deaths now receive. But while the media, especially in circumstances like the 9/11 attacks or Princess Diana's death, for the most part fuels and feeds the frenzy through it's propagandizing, politicians and government bureaucrats are also complicit in the propagandizing about the events when it has a perceived "national interest" they want to exploit to either their ideological or partisan advantage.

The unhealthiest aspects of this recent phenomenon, IMO, are the ways that certain people who have died, or who have loved ones who have died in the spectacular event, that don't fit the propaganda mold that the media and government are interested in perpetuating, can be demonized and marginalized, as happens all the time with husbands and fathers who become widowers when their wives are killed, or people/families who have associations with groups or events that don't fit the mold--political dissenters, people with a criminal history, people from a specific cultural, ethnic, religious, gender, etc background.

Another unhealthy aspect of this phenomenon are the unspoken taboos that get established surrounding the deceased and/or the event. These are either topics which get automatically stifled, or the venting of authentic grief, which includes a tremendous amount of anger. The media/government propagandizers rarely allow the use of footage of an angry person speaking their mind or venting their anger. This is probably the most damaging effect of the media coverage on people who are grieving on a personal level.

But there are now so many ways that people who just want to discuss their reactions, their questions, etc. about the events get shouted down in the wake of these things, I shudder to think what sort of generation we are raising up. It is our peers who police and forbid the open and frank discussion of these events in public forums such as this. It is in public forums where, in my experience, the policing of discussions is way out of proportion to the reality of the event in people's lives.

For example, in the US with 9/11, the government didn't have to set this new standard of repression and suppression of discussion and debate, because citizens and the media were already silencing the discussions that need to take place in a healthy society. That standard demands that people follow and swallow unquestioningly and uncritically, the mainstream propaganda line about what is and isn't appropriate to discuss in the wake of tragic events.

We in the US know what a damaging effect this new "public grieving" standard has had in the arena of public debate, especially in the media. It has been very difficult to recover from the excesses foisted upon us, especially when the issues that need debating stem from the over the top, reactionary steps taken by US politicians in the wake of 9/11, ie the passage of the US Patriot Act just weeks after the event.

It doesn't seem to be getting any better, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 11:52 AM

As I remarked earlier, this is not a tragedy. It is an example of pathos. But the mourning for their loss is a form of necessary public ritual -- these were people engaged on behalf of their community (some people would say humanity) in a dangerous pursuit. It is not like 7 people dying on the highway. There is also a powerful story at work here, the aspirations towards adventure and exploration that have haunted at least the Western world for a thousand years. People can see themselves, at their projected best, in these people (whether you think it is misguided or not), and so they mourn, in part, for themselves. That it is being, and will be hopelessly overexploited in a society starved for meaning goes without saying. Nevertheless, it is categorically different. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:17 PM

It's a fascinating question. I think we grieve for the astronauts because these people carried our dreams. They let ordinary people believe that life can be extraordinary. Whey they died, a little bit of each of us died with them.

That's the noble part of community grief. Another aspect is that grief is ordinarily messy and complicated, a maze of mixed emotions. With the death of a distant hero, our grief can be noble and clean, not mixed with pettiness and uncertainty. We have no need to face the grieving, suffering families. It's more like having a good cry at a sad movie. It makes you feel good.

I guess I tend to be a little cynical about community mourning. I've learned to keep my mouth shut.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 12:25 PM

Ah, the wisdom of age, Joe! :>) Of course, there is plenty of grounds for cynicism, and it is only exagerrated and multiplied by the bizarre net of the fast-link media -- it is easy to see we get our news much more quickly than our parents did, and orders of magnitude faster than their parents.

But the less obvious side-efect is that the media that transports that news becomes a critical control line for princes, policy pukes and ward-heelers to grab at every opportunity. So the nation's sympathies are all linked, their hearts all opened by loss, and it is of course a perfect time to slide in a little political curve or a commercial mass-manipulation angle.

Ya gotta love how the best and highest of our potentials -- for example, the ability to be in higher, better communication -- gets twisted and perverted by the dark side of the species, eh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:29 PM

Joe, I have to agree with you. These people are more symbols to us than real human beings. I wonder what their loved ones must think. On one hand, it may be comforting to have a bunch of strangers mourn for your husband/wife/mother/father/etc. On the other, I can see them wondering who all these people are who mourn and never actually knew the man or woman they mourn for.

I don't think I'm being cynical. I think this public mourning of public people is human nature, and I believe it's always been thus. The media these days just seems to grab hold of stories and not let go until about a week after they've squeezed every last cent out.

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: mg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:37 PM

for the sake of our own health and our obligations to our families etc..we can't stay in a constant state of shock and grief. We have to limit it somehow. I can assure you that ordinary people die here where I live all the time in sometimes very tragic ways, given the nature of the economy..fishing, crabbing, etc. There has been a rash of teen suicides too. I can barely keep up with this...I can't go looking for more. If more comes my way I have to somehow filter some of it out. We also have past and future wars that we haven't begun to recover from or psychologically prepare for. I think we need a break. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: GUEST,just-a-redneck
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:39 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: GUEST,just-a-redder-neck
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:41 PM

I dont think anybody's making a value judgement about different human being's lives. You mourn your own, and astronauts are symbolic of the human spirit a little bit beyond what you and me do every day.
When a Mudcatter leaves us, we say"sorry you're gone". It's not possible for us to say the same for every single person who moves on.

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: GUEST,ok-a-flamin-neck
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 02:48 PM

Sorry bout the fumblin, but ain't y'all bein justa wee bit cynical? Ain't it good to be a little sympathetic, a wee bit empathic? You can always turn it off when you've had enough ... and who's to say when the families of the deceased will have had enough public 'comforting'?

Just-a-thought-from-yer-friendly-neighbourhood-redneck

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:26 PM

We all grieve in our own way. What always gets me is now when anything happens on a large scale, 'grief counselors' are rushed in. As though we are too stupid to know how to deal with grief. What ever happedned to good old fashioned family and friend support? Something goes haywire and instead of talking out things with a friend, we're supposed to make an appointment with a psychologist.

I too, am sad. But isn't that a normal human response?

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM

Redneck:

For Cry-ii, What makes you assume that there are people posting here who are NOT being empathic and sympathetic?

Of course sadness is normal, WE -- a loss has occurred. If you're still in the loss of it, after a week, then it is time to look at moving on and putting it behind.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:05 PM

I'm empathetic to a certain extent. I feel a little bad when I hear somebody was killed driving a car. I just don't think about it too awful much because I, and most of us I'd guess, have enough bad stuff in our lives we can't avoid thinking about. Also, we can't possibly know every story and every victim.

The public sympathy for the victims of the shuttle accident is more widespread simply because more people have heard about it. Remember the trapped miners last summer? There were enough people on the edges of their seats waiting to hear something that if the worst had happened, I believe the amount of public mourning would have been very close to what it is for the shuttle crew.

My next door neighbor has a flag. Today, I saw him lower it to half staff and stand with head bowed for a few seconds. Public hysteria is taking things too far and seems to be more for show than any other reason, but not simple sadness. The fact that our hearts can be touched by what happens to strangers may be the most noble thing about human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:28 PM

Joe Hill said it- "Don't mourn, Organize!"

One way to make something positive out of this this tradgedy would be to bring pressure to bear to restore adequate funding to NASA so we don't continue to risk astronauts'lives unnecessarily through faulty equipment, deferred maintenance, and inadequate staff.

At the end of the day, it was budget cuts that caused these deaths- budget cuts used to provide tax breaks to the rich, to fund military adventurism, to fund 'Star Wars'. The Bushites plan even more of the same.

Once adequate funding of the Space program is restored, perhaps the same can be done with other departments, understaffed and underfunded, putting their employees and clients both at risk in the name of "tax cuts" and "reducing the size of government".

Or not. But then folks shouldn't be surprised when these things happen again and again.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:51 PM

Exploring a near Earth orbit is a bit like exploring the Long Island Expressway.

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:57 PM

What Greg said.. I've been working on my own gov funding niche for a long time ( EPA ). Just keep working at it, I suppose.

If you folks want to really get depressed, pull up the London Observer for Sunday ( today ).

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 07:12 PM

I can't see what's cynical about recognising that a large part of public grief is because it enables us to link to the bits of grieving within us that we haven't dealt with. As Joe Offer said, like crying at a movie.

And there's the part of it that is communal, because sometimes when it happens in front of us like this, or out of the blue, the whole world around us seems to be tuned into the same emotion, and that is powerful. And I can't see how there is anything cynical about it.

It's not that this is sadder in itself than any number of other tragic deaths that take place all around. But there's a feeling for many people of it being closer and more personal.

Princess Diana's death wasn't any sadder than the death of any other young mother who got killed because she couldn't bother to put on her seat belt. But it bought together millions of people in a shared connection with the grief inside them, someone close enough, but not too close, because too close can get in the way. And people need to come together.

With the Astronauts there's also the sense that, as people who have stepped outside the planet and seen it whole, there's a sense in which they stand for all of us. We think of ourselves as Europeans or Americans or whatever - they are Earthmen and Earthwomen, and they remind us that we are too.

What's cynical is when this gets used for other purposes and other agendas, in a way that is manipulative. That's happened in the wake of September 11th often enough, and I hope it won't happen with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 12:07 AM

Well, I have to say that later today, the tragedy hit a little closer to home. Apparently, Astronaut Laurel Clark and I grew up in the same house in Racine, Wisconsin. My parents sold our home to her parents in the late 1970's, when she was in high school. I had already moved to California.
I've searched the Internet to try to verify that she had lived in my home, but haven't been able to. All I could find is that she lived in two different houses in Wind Point, the village north of Racine where I grew up. It was a wonderful place to live, swept by the light of the Wind Point Lighthouse. I did read that she also loved that lighthouse.
I suppose she and I knew many of the same neighbors. Small world.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:01 AM

I take Saul's point, but Amos has his finger on it - these people were astronauts; contemporary equivalents of the explorers of old. With that in mind, one should not be surprised at the disaster. All great ventures have had their risks, and countless thousands have perished over the years in trying to go where none has gone before. Back then, though, we didn't have television and global communications, so the snuffing out of seven lives would often have gone unnoticed.
Not always, though - think of the reaction when Franklin's expedition went missing, or the reaction to Scott's ill-fated attempt on the South Pole, or Stanley's trek for a scoop in hunting down Livingstone. As Greg says, there's something in the human imagination that finds exploration fascinating, be it on our own planet or beyond.
So it is sad, but probably inevitable. Surprising really, how few fatalities there have been in the venture into space.

Subject: RE: BS: Response to Tragedies
From: Lanfranc
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:12 AM

What always appals me in the aftermath of this as in so many other tragedies great and small is the insensitive way that the relatives of victims are invited to grieve in front of the mass media.

It's nothing new.

".. How did it happen? I hope his suffering was small.
Tell me every detail, I've got to know it all,
And have you got a picture of the pain?"
(Phil Ochs "Crucifixion")

Alan