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Lyr Req: Dogger Bank / Grimsby Fisherman

DigiTrad:
LIGHT ON CAPE MAY
SARAH
THE BIGLER'S CREW
THE LUMBER CAMP SONG


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Road to Clady (18)
Lyr/Chords Req: Sarah (trad Newfoundland) (19)
(origins) Lyr Req: Musselburgh Fair and Musselburgh Field (42)
Tune Add: Bachgen bach o dincar (33)
DTStudy: The Bigler's Crew (Bigler's Cruise?) (5)
Lyr Req: The Dogger Bank / The Grimsby Fisherman (19)
Tune Req: knickerbocker line (7)
Lyr Add: Great Northern Line - Australian song (3)


Mad Maudlin 05 Feb 03 - 03:17 AM
Joe Offer 05 Feb 03 - 03:53 AM
nutty 05 Feb 03 - 03:55 AM
Mad Maudlin 05 Feb 03 - 04:01 AM
Mad Maudlin 05 Feb 03 - 04:09 AM
Charley Noble 05 Feb 03 - 08:44 AM
Mad Maudlin 21 Feb 03 - 10:55 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Feb 03 - 11:05 AM
Mad Maudlin 21 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM
Malcolm Douglas 21 Feb 03 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Q 21 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM
Mad Maudlin 22 Feb 03 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,ol black heart 12 Sep 09 - 11:24 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Sep 09 - 01:40 PM
Santa 12 Sep 09 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,Ol Black Heart 12 Sep 09 - 09:37 PM
brezhnev 13 Sep 09 - 03:54 PM
Rumncoke 14 Sep 09 - 06:33 AM
stallion 15 Sep 09 - 04:21 AM
stallion 15 Sep 09 - 04:35 AM
Mr Happy 15 Sep 09 - 08:27 AM
stallion 15 Sep 09 - 10:48 AM
stallion 15 Sep 09 - 11:01 AM
Charley Noble 15 Sep 09 - 03:25 PM
Rafflesbear 15 Sep 09 - 04:49 PM
Rafflesbear 15 Sep 09 - 05:04 PM
stallion 15 Sep 09 - 05:14 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Sep 09 - 12:25 AM
Santa 16 Sep 09 - 03:28 AM
stallion 16 Sep 09 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,George Henderson 16 Sep 09 - 04:09 AM
Blowzabella 16 Sep 09 - 10:39 AM
Rafflesbear 16 Sep 09 - 04:01 PM
stallion 16 Sep 09 - 08:11 PM
GUEST,JeffB 17 Sep 09 - 01:13 PM
Santa 18 Sep 09 - 07:58 AM
stallion 18 Sep 09 - 10:55 AM
stallion 18 Sep 09 - 11:08 AM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 09 - 03:00 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 09 - 04:26 PM
Jim Dixon 20 Sep 09 - 03:27 PM
stallion 20 Sep 09 - 06:17 PM
Rafflesbear 20 Sep 09 - 06:49 PM
GUEST 07 Sep 11 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Rob Neal 19 Jan 12 - 06:24 PM
stallion 20 Jan 12 - 02:41 PM
stallion 20 Jan 12 - 02:43 PM
Charley Noble 21 Jan 12 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler 21 Jan 12 - 04:21 PM
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Subject: Lyr Add: DOGGER BANK
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:17 AM

Hi Friends,

I just found these lyrics to "The Dogger Bank" on the 'web - had been looking for them for a while (let's come out of the closet: I heard the song in an episode of "SpongeBob Squarepants" and took a liking to it :). Now I wonder if anyone of you can help me with some of the expressions:

I can imagine that a "shang-a-roosh" is nothing very flattering, but what does "roadstone-prat-inspector" mean? (not very flattering either, I guess). And what on earth is "the proper ju-ber-ju"? Something like "the right stuff" or "the real thing"?

Thanks!


THE DOGGER BANK

Sailing over the Dogger Bank, wasn't it a treat?
The wind a-blowing 'bout east-nor'east, so we had to give her sheet.
You ought to see us rally, the wind a-blowing free,
On passage from the Dogger Bank to Great Grimsby.

CHORUS: So watch her, trigger, the proper ju-ber-ju.
Give her sheet and let her rip. We're the boys to pull her through.
You ought to have seen us rally, the wind a-blowing free,
On passage from the Dogger Bank to Great Grimsby.

Now our captain he's a shang-a-roosh. He likes a drop of good ale.
Our mate he's a roadstone-prat-inspector. He's been seen in many a gaol.
Our third hand he's a bushranger. He come on deck and received the mail,
And you give a look at our old cook: he's so hoppity wild.

Now we are the boys to make a noise when we come home from sea.
We get right drunk and roll on the floor and cause a jubilee.
We get right drunk and full of beer. we roll all over the floor,
And when our rent it is all spent, we'll go to sea for more.


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Subject: Bigler's Crew/Dogger Bank/Knickerbocker Line
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:53 AM

Hmmm. Interesting. I know the song as The Bigler's Crew, about a ship on the Great Lakes - but there are many variations. Light on Cape May is one. You'll find "Knickerbocker Line" and a version of "Dogger Bank" in this thread (click).
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: nutty
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:55 AM

Maudlin ..... I can't say if this is the original version of the song but it is a copy of the broadside that is held in theBodleian Museum in Oxford.

Unfortunately it is not dated but it is likely to be pre-1900.

THE GRIMSBY FISHERMAN

I'm sure that reading the song in it's entirity will make more sense than the version that you found.

There has been a previous thread or threads about this song , I'm sure, but with Forum Search not working properly I haven't been able to find it/them.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:01 AM

Joe and Nutty, thanks for your help! You're right, Nutty, the broadside version makes more sense. Too bad it isn't dated, though. But you can't have your cake and eat it, too :)
I tried to search the Forum as well, but as you said, it didn't work.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:09 AM

I looked up "Shanghai rooster" and found this explanation:

"a type of long-legged chicken believed to be of Asian origin."

(at www.infoplease.com) I wonder if they have a reputation for being very aggressive or something like that, why else would someone be called a "Shanghai rooster"?

As for the "Vandedecken crew", wasn't Vandedecken supposed to be the name of the Flying Dutchman?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 08:44 AM

A "shang-a-roosh" sounds to me like a compliment to an aggressive, high-spirited shipmate. And "the proper ju-ber-ju" is traditional nonesense words for the "right stuff" as you suggest. The Doggerbank Song is generally assumed to be newer than either the Great Lakes ballad or the lumberjack version, both of which are great songs.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 10:55 AM

Hi Friends,

I finally managed to learn by heart the version called "The Grimsby Fisherman" from the link that nutty gave. Wo-hoo! :)
Since this version talks about the second being "a ripstone pippin", and I liked the sound of these words, I did a search on that expression and found out that "Ripstone Pippin" is an apple tree breed. Guess this fellow is short and round (and probably of a healthy red complexion :) , a kind of dumpling on legs. It certainly makes sense, though...Thought you might like to know.

Kind Regards,

"Maddie"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 11:05 AM

Also used by Dickens in 'The Pickwick Papers':
A little hard-headed, Ripstone pippin-faced man, was conversing with a fat old gentleman
in one corner; and two or three more old gentlemen,


Nigel


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM

Thanks, Nigel! I read 'The Pickwick Papers', but I don't recall that particular quote. Maybe I must read it again...

Maddie


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 11:13 AM

A Yorkshire apple, no less, as I mentioned in the earlier discussion linked to by Joe (see above). The uncredited text from "Songs of England", posted above and in the earlier thread, is from the traditional singer Sam Larner of Norfolk. The other thread also has a text of Grimsby Fisherman from Patrick O'Shaughnessy's Yellowbelly Ballads, part 1, 1975, "remembered from print" (so shorter than the broadside) c. 1904.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM

Malcolm Douglas posted lyrics to "Dogger Bank" and "The Grimsby Fisherman" in thread 24676: Grimsby- Dogger
He linked to a midi for Dogger bank.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:53 AM

Thanks, Malcom and Guest Q! I'll have a look righ away.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: GUEST,ol black heart
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 11:24 AM

I too discovered this great song from Spongebob squarepants & after hours found it was by Robert allan white-used as "associated music production" stock (back ground music for movies etc)..who was Mr White? Its a great Sea shanty...I wonder if Mr white has a CD worth of pirate songs? :)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 01:40 PM

I said to Heart, "How goes it?"
Heart replied :
"Right as a Ribstone Pippin!"
But it lied.
    by Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953) , "The false heart", from Verses, published 1910

- from which it seems that a Ribstone Pippin is proverbially an apple on whose quality one can rely.

I have always wondered whether juber-ju has any connection with 'jube-jube' a jelly-sweet much beloved of children when I was one: thus imparting a sense of 'sweetness & soft amiablility' [as in addressing someone as 'sugar-lump'. I have known this song for many years from Peter Bellamy's 'Fair England's Shore' LP 1968, where he attributes it to Sam Larner.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Santa
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 04:49 PM

Robert A White is a member of the New Scorpion Band, and this song is one of their most popular pieces. I presume he is the same person as the Robert Allan White mentioned above.

The New Scorpion Band are well worth listening to, if you have not already encountered them. They have not (as yet) produced a CD of shanties or pirate songs. On their CD "Folksongs and Tunes from the British Isles" Dogger bank", or "Sailing over the Dogger Bank", is cerdited to the singing of Sam Larner.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: GUEST,Ol Black Heart
Date: 12 Sep 09 - 09:37 PM

Many thanks for the information Santa!!!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: brezhnev
Date: 13 Sep 09 - 03:54 PM

You can hear The Critics Group version of The Dogger Bank here.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Rumncoke
Date: 14 Sep 09 - 06:33 AM

Shanghai rooster - tall, lightly built, strutting, noisy, brightly coloured bird.

I've known men like that.

Anne Croucher


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Subject: ADD: Dogger Bank
From: stallion
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 04:21 AM

I have reworked this from the broadsheet. 2BS&S have recorded it for our next CD. Some of the broadsheet is unrepeatable but you are quite welcome to use it. Use the same melody as per Johnny Collins.


DOGGER BANK

I'm a harem-scarem fisherman. I sail from Grimsby town.
In the Lion and the Kitchen I've had me ups an' downs,
And when I've spent me stocker bait and been out on a spree,
Away I crack aboard a smack and plough the stormy sea,

(Chorus as per already printed)

The skipper he's a Shanghai rooster and likes a drop of good ale.
The second mate's a ripstone-pippin, been seen in many a gaol.
The third mate is a bushranger, the worst in all the crew,
A Liverpool Irish packet rat and sod of a buckaroo.

When we got a trip aboard, for Grimsby town we steer.
The only thing that's in our heads is Mrs Sergeant's beer.
We crack on all the canvas, boys, and battle through every gale
Until the spurn is full astern and then we take in sail.

Sailing over the Dogger Bank, now wasn't it a treat?
The wind was blowing east-nor'east. We had to give a sheet.
We was running wing to wing till we made Cleethorpes pier,
And then we laid up safe and sound and went out on the beer.

We're the boys to make a noise when we gets 'ome from sea.
Like Pall Mall swells, we booze the girls and cause a jubilee,
Drink and shout and holler out and roll all over the floor,
And when the money is all gone, we go to sea for more.


Peter
2BS&S


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 04:35 AM

oh , stocker is in fishing and artificial lure, maybe that refers to cash. Even 2BS&S can't agree with doo be do - ju by ju or whatever, martin & Ron think it is a boat that is a pig to sail however since we believe it is about a race to get the fish from the dogger bank back to the market in grimsby, and Barry (Finn) thinks the reference to "wing to wing" is a schooner with a following wind with one sail set to port and the other to starboard to catch as much of the wind as possible and the wind direction, east nor' easter , from the dogger bank to grimsby, would bear this out, I believe that Doo by do refers to "the real thing" "the best", she's a p;roper do by do, the real deal


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 08:27 AM

.............recall Gary Aspey doing it yonks ago!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 10:48 AM

O yes "Twig her" An expressionm Dad used a lot, to twig is to see or spot. Dad would say "I twigged what he was up to" or " did you twig the colour of the car" a sort of sureptitious glimpse.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 11:01 AM

ahhh I also think the writer of the broadsheet had heard someone else sing it, they didn't write it is my opinion. "In the Lion and the Kitching (sic)" I think refers to strife in the pub and at home i think it should be Kitchen (another ref to wife beating!hu) "Pell Mell swells" sounds like some one mimicking a posh accent al la music hall style for Pall Mall swells. Most of the versions I have heard only mention Dogger bank in the chorus and in the opening line whereas the broadsheet refers to The Spurn, Cleethorpes pier and I am sure someone will find the Lion pub in grimsby, I will delegate that research to someone else, also Kelly's directory might throw up a publican named Mrs Sargeant ooo exciting!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 03:25 PM

Pete-

Nice notes! Look forward to hearing you folks sing this.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 04:49 PM

Here's a version from a born and bred Grimsby lad as taught to him by his Grimsby grandfather

If you listen to it you will find a totally different (and dare I say more credible) version of the Shanghai Rooster or the shang-a-roosh

Dogger Bank - YouTube


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 05:04 PM

"from which it seems that a Ribstone Pippin is proverbially an apple on whose quality one can rely"

So presumably he is doing social work in the gaols ? :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 15 Sep 09 - 05:14 PM

nah a ripstone pippin was a bright red apple that was so bitter it was inedible and was used primarily as a decoration so he was more orniment than use, also the first mate was usually the buckaroo, the disciplinarian so if he was more of an orniment the second mate would assume to be the buckaroo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 12:25 AM

Rafflesbear: You quote what I said about Ribstones as result of quoting the Belloc stanza, about it being reliable; then make a joke, as indicated by the grin-emoticon, about social work in gaols. I must be v thick this morning; but I don't apprehend or grasp your point. I hope it won't be too boring to beg you expound or explain. Michael


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Santa
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 03:28 AM

Rafflesbear: Sounds a bit "folk processed" to me. Insulting slang does change a lot with the times, so in this kind of old song I'm not surprised to find phrases that don't mean a lot now, but specialists (or those with access to the specialist books) could identify. Current terms in old songs don't add credibility.

OK, now someone will come along and point out a 15th Century reference saying the same thing. In which case I'll have learnt something.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 03:50 AM

I listened to Raffles version, a very pacey, good live recording, a bit fast to catch all the words, essentially the same version as the one Johnny Collins used to sing and recorded, the verses and themes in the same order which is not in the same order as the broad sheet and with the added verse about the prostitute which I don't think is in the broadsheet. Where did you get your version from R? It would be curious to know if the writer of the broadsheet left the verse out or someone added it later, and who?
peter

ps
Charlie
jacqui has a ripped copy of our rough mix warts n all it,s on that along with Ratcliffe highway and others


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Subject: ADD Version: Dogger Bank
From: GUEST,George Henderson
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 04:09 AM

I got this text from a Peter Bellamy Lp entitled Fair England's Shore recorded I think in 1974.


DOGGER BANK

Sailing o'er the Dogger Bank wasn't it a treat.
The wind a blowing E.N.E. we had to give her sheet.
Ye should ha seen us rally the wind a blowing free
A passage from the Dogger Bank to great Grimsby.

So watch yer twinker she's a proper ju bi ju
Give her her sheets and let her rip we're the boys to see her through.
Ye should ha seen us rally the wind a blowing free
A passage from the Dogger Bank to great Grimsby.

Now our captain he's a son of a gun he loves a drop of good ale.
The first mate he's a rogue to respect, he's been seen in many's a jail,
The third hand he's a bush ranger he comes from the African isle
And take a look at the poor ould cook it makes the bugger wild

So watch yer twinker she's a proper ju bi ju
Give her her sheets and let her rip we're the boys to see her through.
Ye should ha seen us rally the wind a blowing free
A passage from the Dogger Bank to great Grimsby.

We're the boys to make the noise when we come home from sea,
We get right drunk, we roll on the floor, we have a jubilee.
We get right drunk and full of beer re roll all over the floor,
And when the money is all spent we'll go to sea for more.

So watch yer twinker she's a proper ju bi ju
Give her her sheets and let her rip we're the boys to see her through.
Ye should ha seen us rally the wind a blowing free
A passage from the Dogger Bank to great Grimsby.

So watch yer twinker as down the street she came,
With high heeled shoes and painted toes 'cos Jenny is on the game.
She is one of them flash girls can't you cut the shine,
She can do a little shuffle on the knickerbockerline.

So watch yer twinker she's a proper ju bi ju
Give her her sheets and let her rip we're the boys to see her through.
Ye should ha seen us rally the wind a blowing free
A passage from the Dogger Bank to great Grimsby.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Blowzabella
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 10:39 AM

New Scorpion Band may not have brought out a CD which is purely shanties and / or Pirate songs, but they have one called 'Out on the Ocean' which is full maritime-related material (and it's not new - it came out in 2005). Details of this and all their other recordings are at http://www.new-scorpion-band.com/pages/record.html

Quite a bit of their music features in various TV progs and film soundtracks including Sponge Bob


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 04:01 PM

MtheGM - the lyric goes "the second mates a ripstone pippen been seen in many a gaol" - the quote I picked from your post was "from which it seems that a Ribstone Pippin is proverbially an apple on whose quality one can rely" The allusion I was making was that if the second mate had (presumably good) qualities on which you could rely and was to be seen in many a gaol then perhaps he was doing social work - simples chck

Santa - "Current terms in old songs don't add credibility" - depends I suppose whether you think that folk music is alive or pickled

Stallion - "Where did you get your version from R?" - Paul McHugh the singer - still in his mid twenties - was born in Grimsby and proud of it. He was taught the song by his Grimsby grandfather. He specialises in songs of the sea and of his home county of Lincolnshire. He wrote The Wolds Maidens Lament set in his home county as well as several others. He spent the last four years touring the country with Martin Neal as Norcsalordie


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 16 Sep 09 - 08:11 PM

Old songs get pulled about, I do it primarily so more people will understand what is going on, I don't fall into the camp that says the song has to be 100% authentic, changing freshens them up a bit and maybe explores different sentiments, it is important to have the original and continuing research into the background of the songs as a point of reference and for others to explore from scratch and not compound the felony......or is that what is called the folk process!
Peter


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: GUEST,JeffB
Date: 17 Sep 09 - 01:13 PM

My Dictionary of Historical Slang has - "Ribston(e): A Cockney's term of afrfectionate address", with a reference to 1883; and Pippin: An endearment, mostly costermongers'; C19-20.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Santa
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 07:58 AM

No, I don't think songs should be frozen in aspic. I think our difference is on the meaning of the word "credibility". Using modern slang can make the song more immediate to the current audience, but using the original words doesn't make the song less credible: less understandable, perhaps, but that's something different.

On the other hand, dropping a modern reference into what is an earler event can jar. If you imagine sailing over the Dogger Bank as something being done today, then "sheep shagger" is fine. If you have in mind a period piece, then it doesn't fit.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 10:55 AM

Santa - did you mean that there were no welsh sailors in the days of yore or was it that they were not into the sheep as much then?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 11:08 AM

Just read Malcolm Douglas' posted lyrics, isn't it interesting how there are but subtle changes with adequate explanations, bugger it where's Malcolm when you need him, did his version pre date the broadsheet? As I said previously I think whoever wrote the broadsheet had heard someone else sing it and Malcolm's notes, if accurate, suggest his version pre-dates the broadsheet and the writer didn't record it accurately,mmmmmmmm verty interesting.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 03:00 PM

The seemingly unique broadside in the Bodl has no imprint and no distinguishing features such as woodcuts that wood help to date it. I am presuming the Kidson Collection broadside Roy Palmer mentions in The Oxford Book of Sea Songs is another copy of the same, but I will see Roy on 10th Oct at the VWML and ask him. the other song in the second column on the broadside is 'The Landlord's Song' and again I have not seen other copies of this. Other broadsides close to this one in the Bodl are printed by Such who was printing for just about all of the second half of the 19thc. By the type on the broadside I would guess at about 1880 but I could be 30 years out in either direction. Some of the words, especially in the chorus, hark back to other songs of which DB is partially a remake. When I last did research on the whole family I think the earliest prototype was the New York popular song 'The Knickerbocker Line' of about the 1870s which soon spread among the Great Lakes sailors and bargemen and was adapted to make such songs as 'The Cruise of the Bigler'. It's amazing how fast and far these songs can spread in such a short space of time, especially with the vastly improved communications of the late 19thc.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 09 - 04:26 PM

Roy's/Kidson's broadside text is also without imprint and apart from a few corrections by Roy it is word for word the Bodl broadside. Not worth much but I'd say the broadside was printed away from the Humber somewhere as 'Spurn' is printed 'Spurm' (a Freudian slip or just a misprint possibly?). Any local would know 'Spurn Point' as the opposite headland to Grimsby across the estuary mouth.

As for origins Cazden, Haufrecht and Studer in their wonderful well-researched book 'Folk Songs of the Catskills' produce a remarkable essay on the whole family of songs well worth reading. They conclude, The oldest relevant text of the song about the Knickerbocker Line is called the Stage Driver. It is a stage piece composed by James Unsworth and published in his 'Burnt Cork Lyrics'....1859...Unsworth is known to have been active in London during 1861 and later, when his 'Stage Driver' was already in print and presumed to have had regular performances. It becomes highly probable that some form of The Knickerbocker line received thus its direct intoduction to the English scene. Soon after the song was much parodied in America (The Denver City Line etc)

It would seem reasonable to suppose that the English song called 'The Knickerbocker Line' was based on this popular song. The earliest printing of the British version I have, which mentions Bristol and London, was printed in Glasgow in 1876. However Dogger Bank seems more closely related to the Great Lakes 'Bigler' offshoots, so the line of descent looks decidedly like New York to Great Lakes to Grimsby (and all stops in between!)


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Subject: Lyr Add: The Grimsby Fisherman (from Bodleian)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 03:27 PM

Here is the song from the broadside at the Bodleian ballad collection - Harding B 11(1436). I decided to transcribe this one exactly as I see it, without correcting any spelling or punctuation, since it contains so many terms I am unfamiliar with.


THE GRIMSBY FISHERMAN

I'm a rarem tarem Fisherman, that sail from Grimsby town,
And in the "Lion" and "Kitching," I've had many up and down,
But when I've spent my stocker-bait, and had a little spree,
Then away I crack on board a Smack to plow the stormy sea,
    CHORUS:
    Then watch us, twig us, we'r a popular juba jue,
    Give her sheet & let her rip, we're the boys to put her through,
    You ought to see her rally and the wind a blowing free,
    On the passage from the Fisher-bank to Great Grimsby.

Our Skipper's a Shangi roster that loves a drop of good ale,
Our second addition's a rip-stone pippin, that's seen the inside of a jail,
Our Third-hand's been a bush ranger the Dickey as came from the diles,
And to judge from his looks I am certain our Cook is a native of African wilds.

From the captain down to the caili Cook, we're a Vandedecken crew,
A Liverpool Irish packet rat and a son of a Kangroo;
We've got one of the Forty-thieves, a Ben digo Birmingham hoop,
And in every ring-tail Monkey-man you'd recognize our cook.

When we get a trip on board, for Grimsby town we steer,
The only thing that's in our head is Mrs, Sargeant's beer,
We crack on all the canvas boys, & battle through every gale,
Until the Spurm is left astern, and then we take in sail

Sailing over the Dogger-Bank, isn't it a treat,
And the wind being from the E. N, E., we had to give her sheet,
We were running wing and wing until we sighted Cleethorpe pier,
And when the voyage is ended we're the boys to gobble beer.

We are the boys to make a noise, when we come home from sea,
Like Pell Mells Swells we booze the girls and cause a jubilee,
We'd dance and shout and halloo out and roll about on the floor,
Until our rent is all spent and then we book for more.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: stallion
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 06:17 PM

So the consensus is? which is the chicken and which is the egg?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Dogger Bank' - help w. some words
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 20 Sep 09 - 06:49 PM

I think this goes to show that folk music was alive in the past which is why we have so many versions of the same song

So good luck to anyone who brings a folksong up to date or changes the location - you are maintaining the tradition not destroying it


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Dogger Bank / Grimsby Fisherman
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 11 - 02:24 PM

Sandra Dogger Klassen


Our family Tree takes Doggers back to 1600, Doggers took the name as fishermen of the dog fish (cod) on the Dogger Banks.. Dogger Boats were designed in England http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_(boat)

These ships werre so seaworthy as to be conscripted into the Royal Navy. (Document) In July 1754 returned to the Texel Commander Pieter Dogger Jacobz the ship 'The Misses Anna and Mary returned from the waters near Greenland has an exceptional charge: 330 barrels of oil,from 13 harpooned whales. It was the biggest catch of all Dutch whaling ships in the year that had sailed to Greenland. The artfully engraved trophy to mark the Dogger was the record catch of the Alkmaar owners of the ship, as heirloom remains in possession of his descendants. The glass shows a whaler located between icebergs seen. Harpoon Irish crew and sailing in small fishingboats between one and a spouting whale submerged.

Our Families have yet to find who holds this goblet. We have an image of it though... Sandra Dogger Klassen


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Subject: ADD: A Passage from the Dogger Bank
From: GUEST,Rob Neal
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 06:24 PM

A PASSAGE FROM THE DOGGER BANK

Sailing over the Dogger Bank
Oh isn't it a treat
The wind a blowing 'bout East nor East
So we had to give her some sheet
You should have seen us rally
The wind a-blowing free
A passage from the Dogger Bank to Great Grimsby
    CHORUS
    So watch out rigger
    It's a proper jew be jew
    Give her some sheet and let her rip
    We're the boys to pull her through
    You should have seen us rally
    The wind a-blowing free
    A passage from the Dogger Bank to Great Grimsby

Now our captain he's a Shanghai Roosh
He likes a drop of good ale
Our first mate he's a roadstone inspector
He's been seen in many a jail
Our second mate he's a bushranger
Or he comes from an African isle
Well just take a look at our old cook
Now he's just hoppity wild
CHORUS

Now we're the boys to make a noise
When we get home from sea
We get right drunk and roll on the floor
And have a jubilee
We get right drunk and full of beer
And roll all over the floor
And when our rent, it is all spent
We just go to sea for more
CHORUS

When we're down at the quay
And we're out on the spree
With Jeannie we like to go
With her high heels and painted toes
Her chemise all on show
Well she is one of those flash girls
Can't she cut a shine
She can do the double shuffle
Showing her knickerbocker line
CHORUS


Thought I'd include this version which seems to vary a bit from the ones mentioned. The first line of the chorus 'Watch out rigger' makes more sense than 'twig her' or 'Trigger' If you try singing the linethe words naturally run together and sound like 'trigger' or 'twig her'. The rest of the chorus is about setting sails(sheets)to make best use of the strong wind so I guess a rigger would be involved in this!
I alway ponder over the ju be ju line and wondered whether it was a somewhat anti semitic reference meaning a sort of mean/harsh wind.

The debate some have had about the 'Knickerbocker line' sounds pretty esoteric whilst the version outlined here makes more sense I think. My father got this version from a Lowestoft trawlerman Ernie Moore and it is quite similar to the one sung and recorded by Sam Larner from Winterton, Norfolk


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Dogger Bank / Grimsby Fisherman
From: stallion
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 02:41 PM

Martin and I have discussed this and we think it is about the fast schooner type boats that collected fish from the fishing boats on the banks and raced back to land the catch first to get the best prices, Barry Finn chipped in with his thoughts on the "running wing to wing" lyric was the sails set to run before the wind as it would be in an east nor'easter from the dogger to grimsby, to "Twig" is slang to look carefully, basically they are boasting about their boat and crew "Watch her, Twig her she's the proper Jooby joo". There is a tube clip of me singing a version at the Mudcat blue plate special launch at Herga, highly poignant for me cos I got into singing the song through the singing of Johnny Collins. I also think the person that wrote the broad sheet was transcribing it from something they had heard " Pell Mell" is the phonetic spelling of the music hall posh talk for Pall Mall


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Dogger Bank / Grimsby Fisherman
From: stallion
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 02:43 PM

just realise that I have said all that in earlier posts, don't remember doing that!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Dogger Bank / Grimsby Fisherman
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 01:23 PM

But good point, Peter!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Dogger Bank / Grimsby Fisherman
From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler
Date: 21 Jan 12 - 04:21 PM

I remember (and boy can I remember!) being told that a roadstone prat inspector was a aggressively homosexual tramp - how much truth there is in that though, I really couldn't say, because:

a) It was between 1959 and 1970 and I don't remember much from that decade!)
b) It was in the second half at th eold Lowther Folk Club in York.

I THINK I enjoyed myself.


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