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Patriot Game (tune source?)

DigiTrad:
LIAM'S PATRIOT GAME
PATRIOT GAME


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Patriot Game (29)
(origins) Origins: Patriot Game (60)
Lyr Req: Patriots Game/Gang (4)
Patriot Game (2) (closed)


Aidan Crossey 06 Feb 03 - 05:25 AM
Joan from Wigan 06 Feb 03 - 05:49 AM
catspaw49 06 Feb 03 - 06:31 AM
Aidan Crossey 06 Feb 03 - 07:25 AM
masato sakurai 06 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM
greg stephens 06 Feb 03 - 10:47 AM
My guru always said 06 Feb 03 - 11:26 AM
Ballyholme 06 Feb 03 - 11:38 AM
Don Firth 06 Feb 03 - 11:43 AM
catspaw49 06 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM
Ballyholme 06 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM
Francy 06 Feb 03 - 03:31 PM
Wolfgang 06 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM
Joe Offer 06 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Q 06 Feb 03 - 04:23 PM
Malcolm Douglas 06 Feb 03 - 04:49 PM
Frankham 06 Feb 03 - 05:52 PM
Joe Offer 06 Feb 03 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,Q 06 Feb 03 - 08:58 PM
Malcolm Douglas 06 Feb 03 - 10:11 PM
Jim McLean 07 Feb 03 - 01:23 PM
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Subject: Patriot Game
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:25 AM

I seem to recall some time ago a discussion inwhich it was mooted that Dominic Behan may have got the air for The Patriot Game from an Appalachian balad.

Does anyone have any light to shed on this?

A mate of mine is doing some postgrad research on Irish rebel songs and hadn't heard of this connection. It might spin his enquiries off in a new direction!


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:49 AM

In Dominic Behan's book "Ireland Sings", the attribution on The Patriot Game is given as "Words and music by Dominic Behan". On the rest of the songs in the book, Dominic seems to have given info as regards who and where the song is from, and whether he has adapted anything, either tune or words. That being the case, it seems unlikely that he would claim originality for this one if he had knowingly "borrowed" the tune. In the songnotes at the back of the book, all that is said about this song is: "About the death of Feargal O'Hanlon, killed alongside Sean South, on a raid over the Irish border, January 1st, 1957."

Joan


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 06:31 AM

Also wound up as the tune to Dylan's "With God On Our Side." This piece from an interview with Liam Clancy:


"'The Patriot Game' was written by Dominic Behan, but it was originally a song from the Appalachian Mountains ('The Merry Month Of May'). Then it became a popular song, slightly adapted by a popular singer of the day named Joe Stafford who called it the - What was it called? 'The Bold Grenadier,' or something.

And it was from that popular recording that Dominic Behan took the tune and he made it into 'The Patriot Game.' And of course we used to sing this with great passion at the folk clubs in the (Greenwich) Village. And among the patrons was a young singer/songwriter who came into town named Bob Dylan. And he transformed it, of course, into 'With God on Our Side.' Actually Dominic Behan chided Dylan publicly for lifting Behan's melody until he was reminded that he himself had "borrowed" the tune. As for the phrase "God on our side," it might have come from Robert Southey ("The laws are with us and God's on our side") or from George Bernard Shaw's play Saint Joan."


Spaw


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:25 AM

Spaw ...

You're a gent!

Aidan


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: masato sakurai
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM

See also this thread: Patriot Game.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:47 AM

Unlike many song-origin controversies on Mudcat, we can be 100% that Behan didnt write this tune. Unless of course aliens from outerspace faked old recordings and old books and put them on library shelves to confuse people. Come to think of it, perhaps that did happen. Or maybe it was the FBI


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: My guru always said
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:26 AM

Pardon me for possibly being naive, but did Judy Collins do this on an albumn once?


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: Ballyholme
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:38 AM

If my memory serves me right, I recall someone making the claim that the air was from an old song called "The Merry Month of May". Whether it was Appalachian, Irish, English or Scottish, I don't know.


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:43 AM

I have heard The Bold Grenadier sung by (ahem) John Jacob Niles. I don't remember which record, but that is the tune.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM

WOW Ballyholme!!!! What a memory you have!!!! You remembered that through THREE other short postings!!! I am amazed....Simply amazed!!! We need to call Ripley's "Believe It Or Not" and let them know!!!!

........or perhaps you didn't read the thread?

Spaw---Operating a campaign against posting without reading the thread.


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: Ballyholme
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM

Oh, dear! Sign that man up for a course in Anger Management.


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: Francy
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:31 PM

Another great song done in the early 70's was "Waiting For the Hard Times To Go", written by the late Jim Ringer, using the same melody as the Patriot's Game. Jim Ringer, though, gave full credit to Dominic Behan for the melody.....Frank of Toledo


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM

Spaw---Operating a campaign against posting without reading the thread.

You're on a lost mission, Spaw, and you know it. Despite of that, I wholeheartedly approve.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM

In the Digital Tradition, the tune for "Patriot Game" is The Nightingales Sing (which is a version of the song also known as "The Merry Month of May" or "The Bold Grenadier"). Trouble is, the tune doesn't seem to be working - it's the first of the two tunes for NTNGALE4. I'd upload another copy, but I think I'll just ask you to believe me that it's the same (I asked Jeff to fix it). In the meantime, you can download the whole Digital Tradition and see for yourself.
I wonder if I can find that Jo Stafford folk music CD to see how she sang it...
-Joe Offer-
M
later...I got it sorted out with Jeff. You'll find the tune in Wild Rippling Waters, which is yet another version of Nightingale (and a very interesting one, at that).


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 04:23 PM

All of this could go back to "The Nighingale's Song," or "The Souldiers rare Musick and Maides recreation," from 1682-1684, posted by Bruce Olsen in thread 3646: Nightingale . Now whether the tune for "One Morning in May" is the same- don't know. See the thread for more reliable information from Bruce O.
The song's descendants have been collected many times in America and all parts of the British Isles under the title "One Morning in May" or similar. I can't find a version in Randolph or Brown with "Merry Month of May" as title or first line; I would guess that Dominic Behan and others are referring to "One Morning in May"
The thread cited above (3646) has much information on the songs. I believe Bruce O says "The Bold Grenadier" is another song, but "a brave Grenadier" does appear, rather than a soldier, volunteer, etc. in some versions of The Nightingale or One Morning.

I think you can mention almost anyone who has ever done folk or bluegrass as having sung this song in one version or another. A Monroe version has been mentioned in one of the threads.


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 04:49 PM

The DT file is a little coy about its source, but it seems to be the set noted by Cecil Sharp from Chester Lewis at Lincoln Memorial University, Harrogate, Claiborne County, Tennessee, April 25, 1917. (English Folk-Songs from the Southern Appalachians vol.II no.145A). A few words have been changed and the tune moved from D to F with a few notes altered; nothing major. Presumably transcribed from a record by someone or other. If not Behan's specific source, nevertheless a close relative to it.


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: Frankham
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:52 PM

Patriot Game does sound like the tune for a variant of "One Morning In May". (Nightingale). It is also reminiscent of the ballad "The Flying Cloud" and "The Vicar of Bray".When it comes to folk tunes, it's really hard to be original. One of the reasons that they are so accessible is that they are familiar. Woody, A.P., Dylan, have all used tunes that are in Public Domain. It's harder to make a case for tunes that are not folk such as sophisticated melodies by such as Cole Porter though even George Gershwin may have derived some of his Porgy and Bess melodies from folk melodies and Jewish liturgical songs such as the one used for "It Ain't Necessarilly So".

It has been mentioned that "God on Our Side" was transformed from "Patriot Game". Patriot Game was also a transformation that we have associated as being "the folk process".

The original source for this tune (Patriot's Game) might never be traceable.

Frank


Frank


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:42 PM

You'll find the "Patriot Game" tune in the Digital Tradition entry for Wild Rippling Waters, which is yet another version of Nightingale (and a very interesting one, at that). I'm quite certain that tune is also used for The Nightingales Sing.

Certainly not James Taylor's tune for the song....

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Lyr Add: MERRY MONTH OF MAY
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:58 PM

Wild Rippling Water and Nightingale tunes don't play. Presume all tunes are down.

The following song has the title, "Merry Month of May." It is possible to use the same tune, and it may be the source of the title referred to in a couple of the threads posted above.

MERRY MONTH OF MAY

'Twas in the merry month of May,
When bees from flower to flower did hum;
Soldiers, through the town, march'd gay,
And all resolved to follow the drum.

From windows, lasses looked a score,
And neighbors met at every door;
The soldier-lads charm'd ev'ry sight;
For, eyes beam'd with pleasure, hearts danc'd light;
'Twas in the merry month of May, etc.

Young Roger swore he'd leave his plough,
His team and tillage, and all, by gum!
Of a country life he'd had enough [enow],
He'd leave them all and follow the drum.

He'd leave his thrashing in the barn;
To thrash his foes right soon he'd larn;
With sword in hand, he wouldn't parley,
But thrash his foes instead of the barley.
'Twas in the merry month of May, etc.

The Cobbler he threw by his awl;
When all were glad, he'd ne'er be glum,
But quick attend to Glory's call,
And like a man, would follow the drum.

No more at home he'd be a slave,
But take his seat amid the brave;
In Battle's plains none should be prouder,
'Stead of bales of wax he'd have balls of powder.
'Twas in the merry month of May, etc.

The tailor, he got off his knees,
And to the ranks did boldly come;
He said no more he'd sit at his ease,
But like the lads, would follow the drum.

How he'd leather his foes, Good Lord!
When for a bodkin he'd a sword!
The foe would find he didn't wheedle, (or, the French would...)
When he had a spear instead of a needle.
'Twas in the merry month of May, etc.

Three old women; the first was lame,
The second was blind, the third was dumb--
To stay behind's a burning shame,
So, like the lads, we'll follow the drum.

Our wills are good, but, Lack-a-day!
To catch the lads we'll have a try for 't;
For, where there's a will, there's always a way;
So, we'll walk a mile or two, if we die for 't.
'Twas in the merry month of May, etc.

As sung by Tony Pastor.
Printed by H. De Marsan, New York, ca. 1860.
Harding B31(85) Bodleian Library, Ballads.
Another printing (Firth c14(349) has a few different words.


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:11 PM

I'd say that it's just another one of a great many Merry Months of May, and not at all related to the one mentioned here; the clincher would be that it's in a completely different metre. The Merry Month at issue here is a Nightingale / Grenadier variant, I'm sure. Just this once, I'm happy to take Liam Clancy's word for it!


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Subject: RE: Patriot Game (tune source?)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:23 PM

I have posted this before however it may be woth saying it again in view of the above postings. Dylan asked me, in the Troubadour in the early sixties, who wrote The Patriot Game after listening to Nigel Denver singing it. I explained the connection with Dr Johnson and that Dominic behan had written it. it's not so mush the similarity of the tunes (Patriot Game and God on our Side) but the parodying of Behan's words by Dylan. 'My name is O'hanlon, my age is sixteen, my home is is Monaghan, 'twas there I was weaned...'
Dylan: 'My name it means nothing, my age it means less, ..I was born in ...the midwest' (I don't remember the exact words but it perfectly obvious that Dylan used The Patriot Game as a model for God on our Side.
I also wrote for the Clancys .. but that's another story.
Jim McLean


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