BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?

Subject: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

Does anybody here, [apart from Doug R), think that America & UK should declare war on Iraq?
I think we should not, as it will just kill innocent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:38 PM

Thanks for honoring Peter T. with this thread John. I'd say no of course and my reasoning has been explained on some of the 50 or so other threads debating the reasons and motives of the US, the YK, and government, the UN and everybody else.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM

Is there really any normal people that think we should have a war? this stuff has been on the UK news a lot recently, and I have been talking to a lot of normal everyday folk about it, and every single one of them is against this war, also, many of my friends and neighbours are from Iraq, [hull has a lot of refugees living here), they are all concerned about their freinds/loved ones still their, at least one of the Iraqi people that i know has spent the last few days crying, and I can understand why, if America was threataning my country, i reckon I would be in a worried state as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:50 PM

No. Not only do I, as an American, not fear Iraq because they can't lop a missile this far, but I just plain don't give a shit about any of the Middle East. I don't want my tax dollars being spent on this foolishness. And I'm convinced the Bush administration is doing it's best to insure we will continue to be attacked by terrorists from third world countries until the next millenium, because of the asshole too many people voted for in 2000.

Europe hates Bush. The Arab world hates Bush. We need the Europeans and the Arabs to REALLY be on our side, not extorted into playing lap dog to Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield. But because Bush is probably the worst president the US has seen in over a century, we are going to become even more isolated, with more people hating us than ever before, and fewer and fewer out there defending us, much less our interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM

The only place I've come across anyone who sees this looming war as anything but a bad mistake has been on the Mudcat.

And that includes people who have fought in previous wars, and who are in no sense lefties.

I don't count seeing people in the papers or on the telly as "coming across them". Unlike the case with Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:20 PM

No, no, a thousand times no. But too late, John. The only thing we can hope for now is that the major attack which the US and the UK are positioning for does not occur.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Richie
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 10:03 PM

I support my country and President Bush. Contrary to what others may say, most of the people I know also support our country, and if there's a war- our decision to fight the war. No one wants war but no one wants murderers and terrorists either.

I blame Saddam Hussein for the war because he doesn't value human life.

I pray that Saddam will bow out, but I doubt it will happen.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 10:27 PM

Richie, thnaks for that post as I think it can help answer McGrath's question above.

Kevin, if I were to go into the county seat of Lancaster, a town of about 50,000 and located only 35 miles from a major city and the state capital of Columbus, and ask, "Should we?" the answer would be in at least 6 out of 10 cases exactly what Richie posted. Most of those people would add a few other things as well such as, "I hate to see it but I think we have to do something," and "I just hope our people do it quickly because I have a [insert friend/cousin/son/daughter/niece/nephew/etc] who's been activated and I can only pray they come home safe," or words to that effect.   

In the other 4 cases, you'll get three who are against it to varying degrees for a variety of reasons and one who wants to "nuke the fuckin' towelheads."

That's what I'd find I can just about guarantee.   Now if I were in some liberal area of Columbus, perhaps the numbers would drop to 4 or 5 out of 10 for going to war but still above 50% in a random "man on the street" sample. Now if you're at a peace demo, well.........But to be quite truthful, my scenario here is just about how the numbers would play out.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 11:24 PM

Here's a CBC story re the poets laureate Canada, the US and Britain's vote of NO to war, and how they're making their voices heard. Seemed an appropriate addition to this 'Catter's poll somehow.

Bitter and disappointed as Canada's George Bowering sounds, his encouragement to contine working for peace feels appropriate too.

Peace and hope

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 11:25 PM

Once a nation buiilt on the strength of thinking citizens; worn into unthinking supporters of a nation which has stopped thinking. Even if all Powell's claims about intelligence were true, why is a massive premeditated invasion the right approach? It is not. Men who understand only force, antagonsim, anger and coercion are thinking like obsolete lizards.

"Should" any group of humans set out to destroy another?

No.

I don't have a quick answer as to the best alternative path at this stage. I imagine the Iraqis firmly believe that they really need the most massive weapons they can come up with right about now. Anyone here able to imagine something that would act as a genuine incentive for disarmament by a mad Iraqi leader with a criminal record?

Tough question, I know....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: NicoleC
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:16 AM

No, Amos, but expecting a country to disarm while they are being attacked and have been repeatedly attacked for the last 12 years is plain silly. Part of me wishes to think that our administration isn't that stupid -- would you thrown down your gun while your house and family were being attacked? But the alternative is that they are wantonly evil and desirous to provoke a war that will slaughter tens or even hundreds of thousands of civilians.

How to choose... how to choose...

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:38 AM

It's 1939 again, folks. A war by a very big country on a very small one, in a world that is coming apart at the seams. But it's even more dangerous this time, because Hitler did not command B-52's and the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons of mass destruction in the World.

Pray for a miracle, because that is all that is going to save the ordinary Iraquis and much of the rest of the World from this gang of scoundrels in high places, not to mention you and me...quite possibly. It's going to be precious hard to find any safe refuge from this one, I think, once it overflows the cup they have prepared.

If I was Iraq, I would arm myself with anything humanly possible at this point. Anything I could get. And then I'd bow to the eternal sky or God or whatever you choose to call it, and say "We who are about to die salute you."

Good luck, everyone. If we're still alive in 5 years, I hope to shake your hand and say, "Glad you made it, friend!"

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Chip2447
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 02:28 AM

Peace without warfare, such a grand illusion. While, I don't want a war and to see people on either side die. It will happen. If Saddam has his WMD or acquires them in the future and unleashes them, again on his own people, or one of his neighbors, the loss of civillian life will be attrocious, far worse than it will be with the upcoming US/UK war. You'll have highly trained professional people doing what they were trained to do and what they fully well knew that they may b ecalled upon to do when they volunteered.
    Lets just hope that Sadam pack his kit and gits, or his people toss his ass to the curb before he ignites the whole world in a conflaguration that we've never seen..


Chip2447

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST,Stringman
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:41 AM

The way it's going let's just hope we are here on Monday, have a great weekend, Play it lound Play it cear.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 08:47 AM

The poll numbers Spaw cites proves two things. One, that propaganda works in brainwashing a lot of the people a lot of the time. The big spike in support for war with Iraq among "Americans polled" after Powell's speech at the UN proves that point perfectly.

Second, the poll numbers prove that despite widespread opposition among Americans over this war, the polling professionals keep devising ways of asking the questions that privleges the dominant, convervative Republican Beltway opinion over the people's opinion.

When you tune into the mainstream media, which of course not only is dominated by Beltway automatons, but also acts as the propaganda wing, rather than the Fourth Estate, of the US government, you get this sort of "false positive" opinion that the American public supports war in Iraq. Oddly, pollsters aren't asking the question, "Which is the more important priority for the Bush administration to attend to right now, 1) war with Iraq, or 2) the US economy, what do you suppose the result would be?

Here is an interesting article from TomPaine.com about the problem with the Fourth Estate as government propaganda wing:

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/6693

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 10:00 AM

Unfortunately the Iraqi people are hostage to Saddam and his generals, and if Bush gives the final order for a massive invasion the consequences should be easy to predict. Whatever civilians survive the initial bombing and ground campaign will be at risk from whatever desparate efforts the Iraqi command makes to injure or kill as many "allied" troops as they can with whatever poisonous gas or germ warfare weapons they still have to deploy.

Still, I suppose, it's possible that the Iraqi command will surrender under threat of bombing and invasion. I wouldn't count on it.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 10:20 AM

I can't begin to express all my feelings on this without overwhelming everyone's patience. This whole action is a collosal example of what happens when two pig-headed psychopathic leaders collide. In the case of a barroom brawl with no weapons, we can all just watch in amusment. In this case, they have between them the power to bring down every shred of humanity on the planet leaving the roaches to go: "Um, what wuz that? Oh, well."

One thing (among the myriad other things) that occurs to me is: how are so many people who profess to so fervently value and defend the lives of the fetus-people able to completely deny the "right to live" of the millions of Iraqui people--regular folks, men, women, and already-born children--who will be bombed into unrecognizable dust by American bombs with their (and my!) names on them?

And then, of course, how could we with any reason at all expect their survivors to be our friends after that? And do we really think that the rest of the Moslem world will not unify in hatred of us? And the list of "why it's wrong" goes on for several more pages...

Good gawd, y'all. I hope and pray for all of you, my fellow musicians and cherished friends that I am totally wrong in my fear of the war itself and the horrible aftermath. We still have many songs to sing, and beers to drink. And I have never even met most of you! But this is the worst war scenario that humans have ever known given the ferocity of the players and the technology available. And nothing any of us can do right now can change any of that. If there be a God or God council, now would be a swell time for some intervention.

Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Beccy
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM

Yes, I think we should go to war. Do I like the idea? Hell, no! I don't know anyone who LIKES war.

However, I think it is my generation's responsibility to eliminate the threat to the world and his people that Saddam Hussein is. I do not want to pass the buck to my children after 10+ years of appeasement and containment. We all know how well that worked with Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Ed.
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 10:58 AM

What threat would that be, Beccy?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 11:13 AM

Beccy:

I highly responsible and commendable and even courageous point of view. But I believe it is marred by questionable basis in fact.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Peg
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 11:46 AM

saulgoldie: well said.

The unthinkable just may be about to occur. All those brightly-lit nightmares of my college days under Reagan, a doddering old fool who saw it as his manifest destiny to push that button, gradually faded and receded under Clinton (the first president since Carter to even consider any form of disarmament, and who matter-of-factly had a number of nuclear warheads decommissioned because of their age and lack of utility, and did not, unlike our current war-mongering moronic chief executive, see a need to build up the arsenal again).

What is it? Do these guys really WANT to go live in a bunker underground?

I can't think what to do beyond get in some supplies and go about my life as if not too much will change. Attending a peace rally at this point, even a big one, seems futile and sad. No one cares.

I've got some nice hash from India, a pantry full of dry goods, some steaks in the freezer and enough chocolate to share among my friends. I have tampons and cat food and candles. There's a foot of snow on the ground so maybe that means there will be enough water for everyone hereabouts. I am worried that this old house is heated with oil (though most of our heating oil comes from Venezuela I understand). I feel a bit like I did when people were stockpiling and hoarding in preparation for the Y2K disaster that never occurred (which would have come during some evil winter weather in Boston). When martial law kicks in, I know how to kick someone in the groin. I don't own a car so I don't care about long lines at the pumps or clogged thruways.

Get to know your neighbors now if you haven't already. We may all have to pull together in ways untalked of an unseen in our lifetimes...

Protect and Survive? How?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: JennyO
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:32 PM

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM

There are really big differences between Hussein and Hitler. Hitler had the strongest army in the world, the most advanced tactics, and the largest industrial infrastructure in Europe. Saddam has an army which was demolished by America when it was at full strength, and his infrastructure has been bombed and embargoed into oblivion. Saddam has not attacked any nation since Kuwait; if we ever had the right to oust him, it was then. Hitler was annexing countries at an increasing rate. Leaving Hussein alone isn't appeasement, it's letting the wasps nest alone because it's not near anything that you need to get at. Finally, the only way Saddam will use WMD's is if he is invaded. Using them guarantees his ouster, but there's no reason not to if he's already doomed, and his targets conveniently enter the 700 mile range of his missiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: skarpi
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:37 PM

Halló all,
Well at last I some spare time to look into Mudcat.
I think we should be carful and not do any quick action at this
point , but we ( I ) should be worry very worry about N-Korea
proplems , they are gonna be first to attack the
us Army forces with nuclear weapeons that woory´s me alot
and god help us all if that goes off.
Is there a change to peace???
or must we go to war to clear up the proplems??
I wonder maybe we should go to war and clean up all this
evil forces witch are coming up these few year´s, remember
wat Nostradamus said in the book ..... from the east will
they attack the west and .... I have not get the book yet
but we should be worry about the coming future... lots of love and peace from Iceland, By the way the winter came at last we got
some snow and cold winds.
All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:50 PM

I wonder what would have happened in Germany if the German people had stood up to Hitler before he'd gotten too powerful.

I wonder what the people of the US will be thinking when all is said and done, and they (we) have to decide whether it was the Bush admisistration or Saddam Hussein who most resembled Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 12:57 PM

The Communist party almost won in Germany. By the time Hitler gained power, it was too polarized between right- and left-wing radicals for a democratic government. I think it's fairly clear that Bush resembles Hitler more, at least in his tactics. The biggest difference is that Bush's scapegoat lives, for the most part, outside his borders, so it's less profitable to start restricting their freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM

Many of my friends in the TA were mobilised this week, and I am likely to be in two weeks time.
I am not looking forward to it, but I do believe it is the right thing to do. I think the ordinary Iraqis will bless us.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM

"I think it is my generation's responsibility to eliminate the threat to the world. . . ."

Beccy, it is every generation's responsibility to eliminate the threat to the world, and the threat to the world is war itself. So far, every generation has failed. As the power of weapons increases, the threat increases. We have reached a point now where the threat of war may indeed cease because certain members of the human race who have retained disproportionate amounts of their reptile brains are in charge, are hell-bent on destroying each other, and, in the process, have the power to kill everyone. With weapons available now, the "collateral damage" can very easily be total annihilation of the human race and God knows how many other species along with it.

I have reached an age when most of my life is behind me, but I'm hoping for a few good years (decades, perhaps?) ahead of me. But I much prefer to die naturally in my sleep that to go out in a flash of nuclear fire or with some ghastly disease given me by a weapon of war. The events of the Sixties demonstrated that people do have the power to change things. If your generation has any sense of responsibility, then they will do what is necessary to stop this madness once and for all. Beginning NOW.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: KT
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

The image that keeps replaying in my mind is one of the Columbia astronauts as they viewed the earth from afar. It must've appeared so small to them, and incredibly beautiful. And perhaps, even peaceful.... And knowing that the only humans who inhabit the universe are sharing that beautiful space, yet can't figure out how to do it.....If only we could all see it from afar......

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 02:04 PM

I believe it was Saul Alinsky who said it was nigh on impossible to make a man understand something that his paycheck requires him not understanding.

I think of that every time I hear military personnel and/or their loved ones claiming that they think war is bad, but still "the right thing to do".

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM

Guest, if you are referring to my post, my paycheck as a soldier will be even less than my teacher's salary.
When I said I believed it right, I meant that I believed it right.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:10 PM

I was referring to you and to others here who have said some similar thing to what you said.

A pay check is a pay check. A military man believes a military solution is the only solution, just like a surgeon believes surgery is the only solution.

It ain't rocket science. I'm not telling you that you are wrong. I am saying that you made up your mind a long time ago to do the bidding of any president on whether to go to war. You made up your mind to follow the orders of the commander in chief, regardless of whether you thought him to be right or wrong. Because that is what a soldier is trained to do, and paid to do. Someone who wasn't willing to do that wouldn't join a volunteer military. Not because the pay is lousy, but because the moral cost of joining is too high to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:13 PM

Carol C, that is a very disturbing thought. None of us wants to live in or be a member of a predatory nation... I don't know of any nation or coalition that at this point and perhaps for years to come, can destroy the US (externally). Given that, since it is the victors who write the history, how will all this shake down? I wonder if Bush, et al, will become a martyr hero in a doomed administration engaged in the pursuit of RIGHT or if down the line, this nation with its president will be known as the epitome of hubris, short sightedness and just plain stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:40 PM

Guest, a policeman also joins in the knowledge that he will be constrained to follow orders. But in a liberal democracy he knows that he will be a force for good. Likewise the soldier who volunteers to serve on behalf of a liberal democracy, rather than just enjoy the benefits of living in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:48 PM

Keith, there are plenty of mercenary cops and soldiers, and plenty of corrupt cops and soldiers, and plenty of cops and soldiers who are in it for the power, for the money and benefits they and their families receive...

In other words, it would be disingenuous to claim there is some universal truth about the motiviations of those who voluntarily choose to police and solider on behalf of liberal or illiberal democracies. Police and soldiers, at times even with good intentions, are often NOT a force for good. If that were the case, there would be no police brutality, no war crimes, no cover-ups, no corruption, etc.

Sorry Keith, but I don't share your view of soldiers and cops. Frankly, it strikes me as being pretty naive.

Or don't you remember that other George HW Bush debacle, Somalia?

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 04:38 PM

We will have to agree to disagree here.
Last thought. Try to see through the eyes of the concentration camp prisoners as the liberating soldiers arrived.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 04:46 PM

spaw, you are no doubt right enough in your staftistics. But I'm living in Engand, and I haven't met anyone who's for the war.

I'm not denying they exist. There may possibly be some places where they are a majority. But I'd be inclined to doubt it. Scepticism about this goes right across the political spectrum. Leaving aside the professional politicians of course.

People arguing for the war, don't even claim that it's got majority support, They point out that the majority is sometimes dead wrong, whih is true enough, and say this is one of those times. Tony Blair even makes a virtue out of the fact thst he is defying public opinion.

There's never in modern times been a situation where this coutry went into a war war that was unpopular to this extent. Even the Suez adventure probably had greater public support. Fortunately the Americans pulled the rug from under the British Government that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 04:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 05:07 PM

Mmmm ! There is a diference between being enthusiastic for war, which I hope nobody is, and recognising that war may be a neccessary evil.

In passing I beg to remind all 'Catters that Keith A is prepared to put himself in the front line, and thus his comments have a degree of reality.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 05:56 PM

I think it is much more curious why the British government isn't in bigger trouble given the poll numbers in Britain. I appreciate that Blair has a substantial majority in Parliament, but I would have thought that Labour was splitting into a million pieces. Can any of our British colleagues give us some sense of how a war vote would go (if there was one allowed, and the British and the Americans decided to go alone)? Is Blair out on a limb, or not? He seems pretty confident for a leader of the Labour party.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 05:59 PM

Keith, to suggest that we look through the eyes of the concentration camp survivors to see the liberating soldiers, is to suggest we look through their eyes without first seeing the soldiers who guarded the camp, tortured, raped, and murdered the inmates, etc.

Perhaps you need reminding that they weren't cheering when they saw the Russian and American soldiers arrive. They were quite sceptical and afraid of them. For good reasons. The very reasons I mentioned, in fact.

I really find it impossible to believe that you hold such a Pollyanna attitude about the abuses, excesses, and crimes committed everyday by police and soldiers, considering you are one. US military personnel and anyone who attends a police academy, receives training on these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 06:42 PM

Keith, this isn't WW2 you're going off to sort out. It is a war against one of the very few secular states in the middle-east; a war that will hugely destabilise another secular state - Turkey - which is infinitely more powerful, and 98 per cent Muslim.

(Gareth, Keith knows that if he gets involved it will be on the winning side. Maybe he'll play some part in consigning Iraqi civilians and conscripts to unpleasant deaths. Is this necessary for a "degree of reality"?)

Whatever Iraq's weapons capability, Britain and the US accept that it has no long-range means of delivery. If Iraq poses any threat at all, it is to Israel. If Israel thought Iraq was not going to be deterred by the huge military inbalance in Isreal's favour, Israel would be quick to take pre-emptive action, as it did in 1980 when it suspected that an Iraqi power station was cover for a nuclear weapons programme.

Maybe, Keith, you could just say what's so right about this particular war.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 06:47 PM

Yet again Anon Shit hits the 'Cat.

My late father was one of the first British troops to enter Belsen camp in 1945

50 years later he would still wake up at night, crying, having dreams about what he saw in 1945.

If the victims did not cheer it was because they had not the strength, nor the hope, to cheer survival.

I have seen many stupid or unwise posts here but Anon Guest, yours takes the first prize.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 07:01 PM

Guest,

I saw a former Iraqi citizen interviewed on TV last night. He felt that the majority of the Iraqi people would feel liberated. To live uder Saddam's rule must be horrible.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 07:07 PM

Gareth, if the guest was pointing out that all armies behave badly in the right (ie wrong) circumstances, what's wrong with that? Or are Germans the only baddies? (The concentration camp was a British invention of course....)

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 07:33 PM

Bicker bicker, pick a fight
Make your point and 'prove' you're right
Looks like war is home to roost
As passions argue, get your boost

And for my part I say "be kind"
Calm a troubled aching mind
Be it yours or be it hence
Talk it out, don't build a fence

But getting hot is problematic
By making great into fanatic
Prioritise your new obsession
Love peace and teach us all a lesson!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 09:01 PM

Amen, so be it ttr
To practice peace instead of war
is oft to risk, to be the bait
of those who choose to hurt and hate

Yet such a venture heals the mind
of fev'rish fearsome angry rhyme
and builds the heart with hopeful grace
that Love prevail, in sacred space

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 09:03 PM

I know, I know...Mudcat has a problem with people using critical thinking writing eloquently, evocatively, or even just competently, about serious issues.

Better we all check our brains at the door, have a group hug, and pray for the sinners.

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 09:50 PM

Well, danged, GUEST, there you go again. Hey, even in the middle of wars people need a little comic relief now and again. For the last two years we have had no shortage of seriousness and you know that most of us are up to the task of carrying on with the serious business at hand even if it should occur within a thread.

Sure, you could just say, "Hey, step out the door. There are plenty of other threads." But be doing so you might be missing my point which is that other side of the mask. Can't swim when the tides out. Don't fret. Folks are just doing what folks need to do with the sensory overload that the events of the last few days have brought.

And, no, I'm not playing "den mother". Just catching my breath. He who fights and runs a way lives to fight another day. Like I said, don't fret. Folks are just rechargin'. Might of fact, I'm gonna go beat up my old Martin. Maybe play so old Muddy Watres or Son House stuff. Yeah, that's what I need. Maybe a little Robert Johnson. Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.

But we'll all be back. Guarenteed, my friend. Guarenteed.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should the Uk & US go to war with Iraq?
From: GUEST,wdyat24
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 10:18 PM

Yes! Kill innocent people! Whatever happened to the Golden Rule?

wdyat24