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BS: Who's marching on February 15th?

Peter K (Fionn) 22 Feb 03 - 02:57 PM
Oldguy 19 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Feb 03 - 08:26 PM
Don Firth 18 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM
Don Firth 18 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM
Penny S. 18 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM
DougR 18 Feb 03 - 05:08 PM
Charley Noble 18 Feb 03 - 12:14 PM
Rustic Rebel 18 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM
Don Firth 17 Feb 03 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 17 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 03 - 08:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 03 - 08:22 PM
DougR 17 Feb 03 - 08:03 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,The Hated Guest 17 Feb 03 - 07:55 PM
Penny S. 17 Feb 03 - 06:18 PM
brid widder 17 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM
Don Firth 17 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 17 Feb 03 - 12:47 PM
EBarnacle1 17 Feb 03 - 02:11 AM
DougR 17 Feb 03 - 01:40 AM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 12:34 AM
Steve in Idaho 17 Feb 03 - 12:13 AM
Don Firth 16 Feb 03 - 10:37 PM
GUEST,HG 16 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,Hated Guest 16 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM
Don Firth 16 Feb 03 - 04:22 PM
Susan A-R 16 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM
Ebbie 16 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Hated Guest 16 Feb 03 - 03:29 PM
*daylia* 16 Feb 03 - 03:22 PM
Don Firth 16 Feb 03 - 03:16 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 01:52 PM
*daylia* 16 Feb 03 - 01:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 12:53 PM
Joe Offer 16 Feb 03 - 12:51 PM
Steve in Idaho 16 Feb 03 - 12:30 PM
Bobert 16 Feb 03 - 11:50 AM
*daylia* 16 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM
TIA 16 Feb 03 - 10:22 AM
belfast 16 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Bubba 16 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM
Marion 16 Feb 03 - 09:33 AM
Lepus Rex 16 Feb 03 - 09:14 AM
Lepus Rex 16 Feb 03 - 09:13 AM
Noreen 16 Feb 03 - 12:54 AM
Ebbie 15 Feb 03 - 08:17 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:57 PM

Oldguy, how many of those folk presently denied basic human rights at Guantanomo made it to the demos I wonder?

Norton1, I guess no-one can stop you coming back into the thread after you said you were leaving it, but in my book attacking Peg is unforgiveable, in any circumstances, on any. I was interested to see that "millions" of lives could have been saved by bypassing France in 1944. Really? Whose? Still, I realise you've not arrived at your views without some thought, and if you're calling for Saddam to be declared a war criminal I'm with you 100 per cent - especially if you'd go the last mile and support the principle of an international court to try such monsters.

DougR's posts, however, seem to have become cringe-makingly thoughtless. There must surely be more going for Bush's policy than these empty-headed arguments. But possibly not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM

Joe:

I am sorry. I did not read the FAQ.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 08:26 PM

You folks obviously take a great deal of pride in the number of folks who turned out (many of them in terrible weather) to express their opposition to disarming Saddam.

That was the post I was expressing dismay at, Doug, the one you'd written earlier at 1.40 on 17th February, not the one you sent while I was writing a reply. I included the actual quote in my post. to indicate even more clearly which post of yours I was commenting on, and which bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

MORE on the agumentem ad hominem. Good to know this, because it's used a lot. A common method of trying to confuse the issue.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM

Penny, what Doug is trying to do here is apply a logical fallacy known as the argumentum ad hominem. A fairly good explanation can be found HERE.

The whole point of the argumentum ad hominem is to divert attention from the original statement ("war is wrong") by questioning the competence or moral position of the person making the statement. When the protesters say "we should not go to war," Doug doesn't want to argue with that. It gets him into the quagmire of trying to justify an untenable position. So to avoid that, he attacks the moral position of the protesters by accusing them of favoring Saddam Hussein, which is 1) not true; and 2) even if it were true, it would not refute the original argument that we should not go to war.

Philosophy 110 — Elementary Logic.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM

And I forgot the one about not marching against Saddam. We protest to affect those who claim to represent and act for us, who should take some account of us if we say we don't want another episode in which millions of civilians who have no choice are bombed, thousands of young men in armies are killed on all the sides involved, in which a short action turns out to take years, and more young people find that terrorism seems the only way to end it. If we feel no one is listening, then we protest. There's not the same reason to protest about people who are not supposed to be our servants, is there? About someone who is not talking about starting the war, in our name? Which is not to say we like, or support Saddam in any way. Or would have supplied him with arms if we had a choice.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 05:08 PM

McGrath: What do you mean "play fair?" What's unfair about posing a question about whether any of the "Marchers" had signs criticizing Saddam for bring on this mess in the first place. If he had abided by the U.N. Resoultions there would have been no reason for the millions of people (many of them in freezing weather) to get out and march!

As to your remark about my earlier comment about Bush forcing Saddam to comply by applying pressure, what do you think caused him to cooperate as much as he has? If Saddam had bent to the pressure and complied, there would be no war! He hasn't, and he won't, and there will be one.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:14 PM

Here's another cogent post from a friend:

"So peace marchers all over the world get barely a disparaging mention on the national news but ABC and NBC run simultaneous two-hour specials on Michael Jackson's nose job. And the French think we can't run the world! Huh! They are all the sons of a silly person!"

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM

I ended up going to Detroit Lakes MN. for a rally. It was a small gathering of folks. Only about 50 of us, but I had a great time! I met some good people out there, and some from my home town so we are going to try to get something going right at home.
Considering our small group, I believe we made our statement in that town. The majority of people seemed to be with us, I would say about 50% of people passing. And then we got the finger, thumbs down, one mooner!
We just yelled, "fingers for peace!" I had an excellent time and going again on March 1 for a march. I also got some great photos.
I'm happy for the people who got out there and did it. Sounds like it was good and peaceful everywhere.

- The alternative to peace is dead children.

Great list of signs Daylia.

Peace. Rustic


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 09:06 PM

Like I said, HG, I've heard it all before. And I'm right here in Seattle where it all happened, and as I said, I know a bunch of people who were there and knew what went on first hand.

You wouldn't be one of those guys from eastern Oregon, would you? One of the guys wearing a ski mask and wielding a baseball bat? Because what you're saying sounds a lot like what some of them said.

'Bye now. I'm gonno go watch a video. Something I haven't seen before.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM

I can tell you about some folks that are not marching.

The 650 prisoners that Saddam Hissein captured in Kuwait and has never accounted for.


Lengthy copy-paste article deleted. Click here if you really want to read this shit. Old Guy, check the FAQ for our policy against non-music copy-paste information. If it fills my screen, I'll delete it. If you don't like the policy, post somewhere other than a music forum.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:52 PM

Look Doug play fair.   

Noone was marching "to express their opposition to disarming Saddam." And you know that. Maybe you beieve that the effect of the marching might be to make him less likely to be disarmed, but that is a very very different thing. So stick you accusing us of the things that you believe to be the case, not of things that you don't believe to be the case.

You won't find me accusing you of wanting to kill children. But if I argued like you have been there, I would be saying things exactly like that. And I'd be lying if I did so, and I try not to lie.

We were marching to express our opposition to bombing ordinary people just like us who happen to live in Iraq, under a bloody unpleasant government.

And we were marching in the hope that the efforts of the inspection team, sent to Iraq with teh support (so it seemed) of your government and mine, would succeed in achieving a situation in which there would be no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, even if there are any now.

A few months ago you were saying on the Mudcat that you believed that what Bush wanted was to use the threat of war as a way of forcing Saddam to cooperate, and that there wouldn't be a war But now that when precisely that appears to be beginning to happen, you want to blow the whistle for a war that you were so sure would not happen and need not happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:22 PM

Look Doug play fair.   

Noone was marching "to express their opposition to disarming Saddam." And you know that. Maybe you beieve thtabthe effect of themarching might be to make him less likely to be disarmed, butbthta si a very very different thing. Soi stick you accusingb us ofvthe things that you believe toi be the case, not ofvthings thta you don'ty believe to be the case.

You won't find me accusing you of wanting to kill children. But if I argued like you have been there, I would be saying exactlyblikem tyhta, And I'd be lying if I said that.

We were marching to express our opposition to bombing ordinary people just like us who happen to live in Iraq, under a bloody unpleasant government.

And we were marching in the hope that the efforts of the inspection team, sent to Iraq with teh support (so it seemed) of your givernment and mine, would succeed in achieveing a situation in which there would be no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, even if there are any now.

A few months ago you were saying on the Mudcat that you believed that what Bush wanted was to use the threat of war as a way of forcing Saddam to cooperate, and that there wouldn't be a war But now that when precisely that appears to be beginning to happen, you want to blow the whistle for a war that you were so sure would not happen and need not happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:03 PM

I have a question for any of you who participated in a march, regardless of where it was.

Did you see anyone protesting because Saddam is not living up to Iraq's agreements with the UN?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:02 PM

New Orleans...they didn't surrender 'all' functions, but the major ones. The ones the Feds need to bring a city to its knees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,The Hated Guest
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 07:55 PM

Geez Don...

I didn't know I was pushing your buttons on the Seattle fiasco. But that was an engineered riot. The Feds did it. I have tape of the 'anarchists' pulling off their ski masks afterwards and being slapped on the backs by cops. Damn...sorry you didn't know about that. The footage really is in several documentaries. It happened. And it happened just so protestors could be trotted through a naval brig after their arrests. In order to set precedent. Believe it or not. All you have to do is run a search at www.google.com for 'Sand Point riot'...something like that. Major media reportage.

And now we have Jose Padilla in jail forever at the Gooseneck naval brig in South Carolina. Direct result of what happened at Seattle.

The Feds can't really incarcerate us yet under existing law the way they'd like to, so they're using military facilities...where they can argue military and maritime law applies. But that is changing as you deny the obvious. The absolute end of America will be put to paper in this legislative session. S.45...senate bill 45...will alter one word and turn control of all cities and counties over to FEMA. Period. One word will be changed and that will happen. Test case right now...New Orleans. A week ago the mayor surrendered all city functions to FEMA. And that's what changing ONE WORD will do. And there are tens of thousands of subsections in dozens of bills which will criminalize everything and make you and me subject to incarceration, slavery or death. It's here, buddy. Sorry to break bad news to good people, but it's here.

Go to thomas.gov and type in s.89. The 'draft'. But that's a mis-direction. It is 'universal service'. For national defense...'and other purposes'. That means the young females in our families will be prostitutes in the future. Those fighting men need sexual release, so the U.S. govt will put girls to work as whores if they don't want to dig ditches. Imagine the worst thing you ever conceived going on in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and square it. That's what we'll have...on paper, at least...in two years.

And one of the first steps in the march to tyranny...one of the most obvious ones...occurred in your own backyard.

New Orleans Seized by Feds

The link above is about the takeover of New Orleans by the Federal Government. The strategy seems to be that cities and counties will be starved for cash. The Feds ordered massive new 'anti-terror' programming be put in place, and they promised federal money to do it. So cities have complied, and now there's no cash. But the feds will provide it (and personell) if the cities and counties surrender control. This ain't UFOs, Don. See...the media has succeeded wildly (in your case, at least) in linking the word 'conspiracy' with 'theory', while they flash outlandish images at you on your television screen. You have to BREAK that conditioning in order to read the news objectively, and the only way I can suggest you do that is to turn off your TV and study the Constitution. Organized crime has taken over the U.S., and they stage events like the 'protest' in Seattle, and the 'attack' on Sept 11 in order to create new law and unify people behind perceived outside threats. Simple as that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:18 PM

Some of the arguments about the demos (either the plural of demo, or "we the people") do seem very weak.

1. We are very lucky to have the right to do this, and people in the country you are complaining about don't. Implied conclusion - you shouldn't use the right because everyone on Earth doesn't have it. But you should still be grateful that you have it, even if, morally, you shouldn't use it. This is rubbish - use it or lose it. The government is meant to find it difficult to deal with, and irritating. That is why it is a right. Otherwise it's no more than choosing to take a walk on a Saturday afternoon.

2. The numbers involved are fewer than those who have died under SAddam Hussein. Implied conclusion - your opinion doesn't outweigh their implied support for the war. True as regards numbers - but what about those who will die in a war? Their numbers may well, almost certainly will, be greater. Don't we have a duty to mention this?

That our glorious leaders fall back on these arguments shows the weakness of their positions.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: brid widder
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM

I took part in the London march on Saturday.... along with millions more. I've never been on any sort of march before I was a demo virgin!!! it was amazing...I think every estimate is of how many took part is an underestimate!!... all ages... ... mums dads & kids wheelchairs and pushchairs.   We were on the Gower Street branch... the walk along Gower street itself took 2 hours ... before we reached the official start! we started at 12:30 & reached Hyde park at 6:00 ... well after all the speeches had finished there were lots after us, and many who never had a chance of getting to the end in time for coaches home.

I was there to say this is NOT IN MY NAME... all over the world we said it loud and clear... will we be heard?

does anyone know where I could get a transcript of the Hyde park speeches?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM

I respect authority. I respect the administration of the United States of america. I have faith in their plans and I support them.
I do not think George Bush or any of his administration have any hidden agendas.
I think the people that are protesting are excersising their rights. How did they aquire that right? Have they heard of the American revolution? Was that a war? Did people die in that war? Was it worth the bloodshed?

If they were in that era protesting war, would there even be a United States of America? They key word here is United.

Why don't they direct their efforts toward protesting the lack of rights of the people of Iraq?

The villain here is Saddam Hussein, not the USA.

Bubba


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM

Thread Creep (in this case, an expression subject to whatever interpretation you might want to put on it):—

Beloved Hated Guest, I sympathize with your view—which is to say that I have sympathy for anyone who holds the kind of views you do—because it appears that you have joined the ranks of those folks who can only be described as " The Terminally Bewildered."

My father was a health professional in a field which, at the time, was at odds with the Medical profession. It has since been grudgingly accepted as valid by those who used to consider it quackery. But as a result, my father was the recipient of many bulletins and newsletters from persons and organizations that assumed he would be open to their dire warnings about their particular Conspiracy du Jour. The following are some examples:
1. Unbeknownst to the world at large—except, of course, for the fellow putting out the newsletter—John D. Rockefeller (and when he died, the entire Rockefeller family) owns all the major corporations in the world, and he is just waiting his chance to enslave us all so that he will no longer have to pay anybody wages. What should we do about it? He had no answers to that. He just wanted an outlet for his hatred of the Rockefellers, and he wanted everybody else to hate them, too.
2. The Illuminati, of course, was one of the more popular groups who were going to take over the world.
3. However, they would have to compete with the Masons, who also had dibs on the planet.
4. The Zionists (proof: the Protocols of the Elders of Zion) were in there pitchin'.
5. But they would have to contend with the Catholics. Were you aware that when John F. Kennedy became President, the Pope started digging a tunnel under the Atlantic to use as an invasion route for the Vatican Guard so they could, with Kennedy's help, stage a coup, take over the United States, and force everybody to become Catholic? Oh, yeah! The newsletters said so!
6. One that was not supposed to be a danger to the world came from the planet Venus, our nearest neighbor in space. The Venusians had a base for their UFOs near Mt. Shasta, and there, in a secret hideaway under the mountain, the reincarnation of Jesus had just taken place, born by a young woman who had Immaculately Conceived. At the proper time, Jesus would make his presence known, and the Millenium would begin. But since "the moneyed interests" would try to crucify Him again, the Venusians (referred to in the Bible as "angels") would use their phasers and photon torpedoes (or whatever) to enforce the benign will of Jesus on the peoples of the earth—for their own good. But not to worry. All would be Heavenly, except for those who resisted and would be sent to Hell.
7. Did you know that the earth is hollow and that an entire civilization lives inside? The entrances to the Hollow Earth are at the North and South poles. True. We got another newsletter that said so.
You seem to fall into the "World Government and black helicopter" category. I've heard this kind of stuff all my life. It all has the same general thrust and the same hysterical tone.

Now, I'm quite sure there are people who want to take over the world. Alexander the Great was an early success story. Various Roman emperors were well practiced and quite good at it. Then came Attila the Hun. More recently, there was Napoleon, more recently still was Adolph Hitler and Benito Mussolini. There number is legion.

Currently, we seem to have George W. Bush. What he and Ashcroft and the rest of the cabal are doing is pretty obvious to anyone who takes the time to look behind the news a bit (unfortunately, not as many as there should be in what is supposed to be an "informed electorate"), and this is bad enough without coming up with every imaginary scenario you run across on some website somewhere. These websites are merely more recent equivalents of the newsletters that clogged our mailbox.

In the current context, I consider these alarums you keep spreading through these threads to be like the ink emitted by a squid. It clouds the water and obscures the nature of the danger that actually is there.

Hated Guest, O best beloved, two plus two is four, not twenty-two.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:47 PM

Plumber's mate and myself took part in the quiet, dignified, ranting-speech-free protest in Brussels on Saturday.

For the first time in my life, the European flag really meant something to me and I was pleased to walk behind it: not in a flag-waving Euro-jingo spirit but precisely because the European Union, with all its faults, is the fruit of Franco-German reconciliation. It came about after those two countries had battered each other to death for the greater part of a century (coal and steel, not oil, were the "resource war" commodities in those days), and because its core value is the belief that jaw-jaw is better than war-war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:11 AM

There were a lot of issues floating around at the New York rally. At the time of the event, the police were agreeing with the organizers' count of about half a million. Since then, I have seen counts as low as 100,000. Where I was, the whole thing was peaceful and civil with a complete mix of ages, ethnic groups and races.

Although there were mentions of arrests at various locations, even the police who were trying to get the people off the streets in favor of vehicular traffic were civil.

Afterward, my son commented that Dubya should not be allowed to use any weapon he could not pronounce correctly.

I really had the feeling that the whole day was very much like the speech in Henry V, citing those who would wish they had been there and would envy the participants. I also hope and believe that this may have been a seminal moment in the movement, rather than a high water mark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:40 AM

You folks obviously take a great deal of pride in the number of folks who turned out (many of them in terrible weather) to express their opposition to disarming Saddam. Good, I say. Everyone should have an opportunity to have their say. Those who had that opportunity are grateful, I'm sure that they live in a country that is free to do that. From all reports, the people of Iraq don't have that opportunity. I'm sure, though, that all of you who are protesting our government's efforts to correct the situation for Iraq's citizens take that into account. Right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:34 AM

Don...

Sand Point was the staging area for the 'anarchists'. The Feds moved in and told the local cops how it was going to be. I have film of the arrests, the 'anarchists' drinking beer at Sand Point and crashing in their sleeping bags after their work was done that night. They were hired by the feds to do a job. Several documentary films have used the footage I just described.

I'm glad you dug a bit deeper into what you thought was known.

The Seattle riots were a pivotal event in the formation of our new tyrannical govt. Sand Point should have been stormed and leveled to bedrock after American citizens were taken there for practicing freedom of speech and the right to assemble.

And according to your gibberish, Jose Padilla is having a freaking picnic at another brig. This country should be enraged over the lost rights of that scummy gangbanger being held forever without just cause and no lawyer...just because Ashcroft wants it. But once again we're failing the test. Just like in Seattle.

No hard feelings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:13 AM

YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM

You drive a car? So do you - so what's your point? My government is a direct reflection of the majority of the population. Next election we'll see who is our president. That's how we do it. Majority rules - and that means that until 2004 this is what we have.

If I were to extrapolate that since you believe Mr. Bush to be so bad we should do anything to remove him. If that assumption is correct then we ought to remove Saddam under those same assumptions. And we know he is bad -

So on that point - bite me oh anonymous one - :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:37 PM

You're still full of buffalo dung, HG. True, the King County jail had been filled to capacity, so they bused a bunch to the decommissioned Naval Air Station that used to be called Sand Point. Sand Point has been turned into a city park—Magnusen Park, named after a former long-time Washington State senator. The old Navy facilities are still there, and the buildings are being used for various kinds of classes, including arts and crafts, and the tennis courts are open to the public. It's a nice place to go for a picnic on a sunny Sunday afternoon. The old brig is still there, although it is almost never used anymore. When the King County jail in downtown Seattle was filled to capacity, the overflow was bused to the old facilities at Magnusen Park. Your first quote was incomplete. The rest of the story is here:—
Those arrested were handcuffed, photographed and hauled away in buses to the old Navy brig at the former Sand Point Naval Station northeast of downtown. Once there, several hundred demonstrators continued their protest Wednesday night by refusing for hours to leave the buses. Police began carrying the last 100 passive resisters off the buses to the booking counter early today, Paskin said.

Bail ranging from $2,000 to $50,000 was set for 14 people facing felony charges in Tuesday's mayhem.

"I don't have any problems with protest, freedom of expression. I have problems with destruction of property," King County District Judge Mark Chow said.
Many of these people were the self-styled "anarchists" I spoke of, whom the police arrested in the process of smashing windows in downtown stores. They were released on bail the following day.

Your second quote has no connection whatsoever with the first.

Take your meds. You'll feel better.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,HG
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM

Kick in the head, ain't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Hated Guest
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM

Sand Point naval brig. It's use during the Seattle riots has been cited in legal cases since that time. Americans civilians were kidnapped and stored in the brig just to set precedent.

And it happened on the Clinton watch. Clinton is as great a traitor as Bush (pick one).

The Seattle Police Riot was created in order to begin the process of making maritime law pre-eminent in the U.S.

Sometimes the closer you live to something the less you know about it.

"Those arrested were handcuffed, photographed and hauled away in buses to the old Navy brig at the former Sand Point Naval Station northeast of downtown..."

The Precedent

"Instead, the government is asking the court "to authorize the indefinite and potentially lifelong confinement of an American citizen in a military brig without any opportunity to contest the charges against him because no charges have been filed," the ACLU said...."

Early application

Your country's laws are being being gutted, Don. They're using Maritime law as an interim step, until they legally enact the really nasty new stuff...which will ALSO cite maritime law so we can be turned over to the U.N.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 04:22 PM

Dear, dear Hated Guest,

I don't know which galaxy you beamed in from, but I'm afraid you've landed on the wrong planet. At least your information doesn't jibe with those of earthlings who have lived here awhile. What you are trying to claim is a cart-load of bovine droppings.

I've resided in Seattle off and on since December of 1940, so I have a fair clue of what goes on up here in this little enclave of log cabins and igloos. The WTO conference and protests in Seattle took place from November 29 to December 2nd in 1999. You will note that this was before the Bush Administration took power and well before the Patriot Act. "9/11," as you apparently need reminding, took place on September 11th of the year of Our Lord, 2000.

The riots got to within a couple of blocks of the apartment build on Capitol Hill in which my wife and I live. We hunkered down and followed everything on the TV and wondered how close things were actually going to get. We also know several people who were there in the thick of it. Those who were arrested were put in the King County Jail in downtown Seattle, not any kind of Navy brig. It came under civil law, not maritime law. Also, due to some of the excesses of the police department, there was a full scale investigation, and the police chief at the time was forced to resign. The Federal Government did not get involved.

Where the hell do you get this stuff? I am deeply concerned about the state of you mental health.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Susan A-R
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM

Well, it was cold up here in VT (we really haven't cracked 10 f for a few days and I'm darned tired of it.) My Mother actually showed up for her first demonstration ever. I'm wicked proud of her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM

One marcher in Juneau had used a hot-glue gun to write on the back of his jacket: No War in Iraq for Ego and Oil

This morning's paper estimates the number of marchers yesterday as 1,500. Since we're an isolated community and can't draw from surrounding areas, these people are all Juneauites. Way to go.

One missing component of the population was youngsters between the ages of 14, say, and 18. Is this peculiar to this community or was that largely true in your neighborhoods?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Hated Guest
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:29 PM

Don...the purpose of the WTO police riot was to establish precedent. The people arrested were placed in the naval brig there, and subsequent questions arose as to whether they should be dealt with under U.S. law or MARITIME law, since technically the brig is under military control. Look at the PATRIOT Act and all the legislation since Sept. 11. The only way Bush/Ashcroft could justify the illegal 'enemy combatant' classification was to fall back on 'maritime' statutes and then lock up their test cases in navy brigs. What they are doing is so highly illegal (at the moment) that it can't be backed up by U.S. code, so they are using non-U.S. law. The Seattle riot was just a step in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:22 PM

Indymedia now puts the total number marching for peace yesterday at almost twelve million. 2.5 million in Rome, 1.75 million in London, 175,000 in NYC, and 100,000 in Toronto! :-)

Ahh, the glowing web of world-wide camaradarie warmeth my heart indeed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:16 PM

The Peace March in Seattle was peaceful.

During the WTO demonstrations in Seattle, a group of about 200 self-styled "anarchists" started smashing windows and setting fires and managed to goad the police into attacking the peaceful demonstrators. The idea, of course, was to convince the rest of the world that the 40,000 people who demonstrated peacefully were nothing but a bunch of hooligans. Despite the word that these "anarchists" intended to try to do it again yesterday, nothing happened. Out of the 15,000 to 30,000 demonstrators (depending on who's figures you choose to believe), there was only one arrest. All in all, it was a very powerful statement. The story is HERE.

There was a counter-demonstration at Oak Harbor on Whidbey Island. This small town is by a naval air station and a large portion of the population consists of the families of Navy personnel station in the Gulf, mostly on aircraft carriers. 500 to 1,000 people participated (again, depending on who's figures you chose to believe). The televission news interviewed a number of these folks. They seemed to be under the impression that those who were demonstrating in Seattle and in other cities in the U. S. were "un-American," "unpatriotic," "traitors for not supporting the troops," and the one I liked the best, "cowardly parasites on the courage of those who fight for our freedoms!" I feel sorry for these folks, first, because their relatives in the armed forces are being sent off, not to protect our freedoms, but to impose the will of the Bush Administration on the rest of the world, and because they are sufficiently naïve to have swallowed the lies and fabrications fed to them in the name of patriotism by a bogus administration. Unfortunately, with these good folks, the Big Lie works. They haven't grasped that the best way we can "support our troops" is not to put them in harm's way for the sake of the ego of an incompetent President and the greed of those he serves.

The question now is, will the Bush Administration bow to the will of the people they claim the represent, or will they continue to pursue their illegal and immoral course of action?

Regime change in 2004!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:52 PM

Your government is you Norton? That is the government that refused to extradite IRA terrorists. YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:38 PM

Voice of Canadian peace demonstrator in front of the US consolate in Ottawa yesterday (on CBC Newsworld last night), "Bush is trying to subvert the UN. Bush is trying to subvert the whole world."

Brrrrrrrrr - I find thoughts like that even chillier than -20 somehow. No wonder so many braved the cold to exercise 'democratic freedom'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:27 PM

"Whether I like it or not my government is me."



If your government was led by Stalin? Hitler? Saddam? My point mot being that Bush is to be equated with all these, but that "my government is me" doesn't really stand-up when you think what it means. (And remember Hitler came to power through a democratic electoralmsystem, even though more people voted against him than for him. That happens in other places too.)

If our governments don't stand for what we believe in we've got a right and a duty to stand up against them. And so have other people in other countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:53 PM

A slogan on a sign caried by a demonstrator (on CNN)

"I see dead people."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:51 PM

We had a big rally at the State Capitol in Sacramento yesterday. It made me get all misted up, to see all these people express their opposition to this war. It was also nice to see a lot of old friends there.

Hey, we even had a blimp up above us.

One thing I noted, though, was that the speakers on the rostrum were far more strident and far less rational than I see in the mainstream of the people who oppose the war. The speakers seemed to imply that if we are to oppose the war, we must unite - and sign on to their whole agenda. I'm not ready to do that. As a rule, I keep as far away from demagogues as I can. This war is certainly "not in my name," but neither are the rigid ideologies of the extreme right and left.

-Joe Offer, Radical Moderate-


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:30 PM

"It's your Government people hate, Norton, not your people or your country"

Whether I like it or not my government is me. And to the French who painted swasticas on the American flag - I'm sure those thousands of Americans who bled to get that mark out of your country are thrilled. Too bad you couldn't have let us know that in 1944 - we could have bypassed you and saved millions of lives.

Peg - Just for you - Those "sick" Marines who put sayings on their gun barrels are the sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters, of Americans who wrote the same thing on their gun barrels with the same "sick" enthusiasm as when they were getting ready for Normandy, North Africa, Italy, and thousands of other spots in the world that aren't being repressed today. It's folks of your ilk that don't understand where the freedom to demonstrate really comes from. It comes from some of us who make ugly things happen to repressive regimes in your stead. Instead of being so judgemental maybe you ought to research a bit before you open your mouth. What's it say in the bible? If you are without sin cast the first stone?

GUEST - I agree with you completely about the Patriot Act - Biggest power grab in history - unless you count Saddam or some of his ilk - Far as I am concerned we ought to simply arm every American, train them in the use of a weapon, and permit concealed carry.

I am proud of you who marched - you did well. I know I said I would not say anymore but am in process of closing some loose ends up. Doesn't make any difference what you all have to say about the things I've posted before or now. We appear to be on a different page in this phase of the game. Except for GUEST - now that is something that ought to be photographed for posterity.

Kat - Far as Bob goes - he apologized in private and I accepted and forgave him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 11:50 AM

Great list, Daylia. I remember seeing many of these in DC last month. Mine read "Whose God Are You Hearing, Mr. Bush?".

Anyone seeing any thing worth watching this morning on the tube? The few times I've turned it on there are drum beaters on every channel. Normal!

Damage Control...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM

Marion - according to the indymedia.org link posted on another thread yesterday, 11 million people marched for peace yesterday worldwide! Here's the numbers given for Canadian cities at this "grass-roots" site (sorry, couldn't link the exact pages - if you browse through you'll find them):

Vancouver - 30,000
Edmonton - 10,000
Toronto   - 80,000
Montreal - 150,000 (*whew!* C'est formidable!)

These numbers are considerably higher than the ones given in this CBC report. Strange thing is, according to CBC Newsworld last night, there were an estimated 150,000 marching in Montreal! Which lends credibility to the 'grass-roots' numbers above. And of course this leaves out Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, Halifax, Ottawa (where an couple thousand people demonstrated in front the US Consolate) etc.

If these numbers are true, then I'm 'guesstimating' that about 300,000 Canadians marched for peace in the bitter cold yesterday!   :-)   'Tis a proud day indeed to be a Canuck!!!

My favorite sign at the Barrie peace rally yesterday read "Iraq = the 51st state!" (with the = slashed out). My least favorite, a picture of Bush with devil's horns, tail and pitchfork drawn on. I don't think it lends credibility to the peace movement to demonize anyone ...

Here's some of peace slogans taken from a list gathered at the indymedia.org site of signs carried at the last huge demonstration in Washington DC for Martin Luther King Jr. Day. I've bolded my favorites...

"Bush/Cheney: Malice in Blunderland
Who would Jesus bomb?
War begins with 'Dubya'.
Bush is proof that empty warheads can be dangerous.
Let's bomb Texas, they have oil too.
How did our oil get under their sand?

If you can't pronounce it, don't bomb it.
Different Bush, same shit.
Daddy, can I start the war now?
1000 points of light and one dim bulb.
Sacrifice our SUV's, not our children.
Preemptive impeachment.
Frodo has failed, Bush has the ring.
Look, I'll pay more for gas!
Draft dodgers shouldn't start wars.
War is sweet to those who haven't tasted it (Erasmus).
Our grief [over 9/11] is not a cry for war.
Stop the Bushit.
Just war/just oil.
You don't have to like Bush to love America.
Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld: the asses of evil.
$1 billion a day to kill people-what a bargain.
Smush Bush.
America, get out of the Bushes.
Pro-lifers: Wake from Bush's propaganda spell-war kills innocent children.
Disarm Bush too.
Big brother isn't coming-he's already here.

Empires fall.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind (Gandhi).
Mainstream white guys for peace. (held by three mainstream-looking white guys)
Hans Blix-look over here.
Let Exxon send their own troops.
There's a terrorist behind every Bush.
We can't afford to rule the world.
9-11-01: 15 Saudis, 0 Iraqis.
Don't waive your rights while waving your flag.
Drop Bush not bombs.
Bush is to Christianity as Osama is to Islam.
War is not a family value.

(Picture of the peace symbol:) Back by popular demand.
(A picture of Bush with a red-stained upper lip:) Got blood?
(A picture of Bush saying) "Why should I care what the American people think? They didn't vote for me."
SUV's: Axles of Evil
Drunk Frat Boy Drives Country into Ditch
Violence comes from uncreative thinking
Axis of Evil: Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Cheney
DESTROY FLORIDA
Axis of Evil: Militarism, Racism, Commercialism
Give Impeachment a Chance
Bush Fails I.raQ. Test
Preemptive peace
No more blood for oil
We don't want your phony war
Security through peace
Drop Sanctions-Not Bombs
This war will make us less safe
Get the Empty Warheads out of the White House
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: TIA
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:22 AM

What a cross-section in Lancaster yesterday - men, women, kids, ages less than 1 to nearly 90. Plenty of signs opposing not just the Bush/Blair/Cheney/Rumsfeld war, but opposing ALL violence (yes DougR anit-Saddam signs!). Here's the best part - unofficial statistics on the cars streaming by: Many (if not most) honked and waved and gave the thumbs up or peace sign. Only THREE shouted obscenities, gave thumbs down, or middle finger (white males all HMMMMMMMM?) And that is in the most heavily Republican county in the entire USA.

We don't own any TV or radio stations, but us naive, misguided peaceniks are out there in numbers that the hawks just won't believe.

Thank you everyone who froze for peace yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: belfast
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM

Here in a small town on a small island off the coast of Europe thousands upon thousands of people marched. It was, to put it mildly, impressive. We had one great advantage: one of the speakers was Eamon McCann, one of the greatest public speakers I have ever heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,Bubba
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM

I saw a good picket sign on TV recently. It was a news segment about a country on the west coast of Africa. I forgot which one but the sign said "Help us Bush"

I hope all of the protestors will some day be holding a sign saying "Help us Saddam"

I can see it now. People pleading "Oh great and powerful Saddam, help us throw off this oppressive regime we are burdened with and restore our dignity and human rights that he has taken away"

Bubba


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Marion
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:33 AM

Hi Ebbie - I do wonder how these turnout estimates are made. One newspaper website puts the Toronto demo at 10 000, while the Toronto Star says it was 80 000.

Anyone see any good picket signs?

Some of my favourites:

"War orphans make good terrorists"
"War is terrorism with a better budget"
"My cold toes need peace more than oil"

Least favourite:

"War is a sign of a mal(e)functioning [sic] government" - was the malebashing strictly necessary?

Most confusing:

"I'm an Iraqi spy" I don't get it.

Marion


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:14 AM

Iqaq=Iraq, obviously.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 09:13 AM

I was stuck at work yesterday, and missed the one in Minneapolis, which sucks. And GUEST, 15f isn't cold. Wimp. :)

The headline on the CNN site this morning is interesting: "Antiwar rallies delight Iraq," featuring a photo of a burning, inverted US flag.   Wow, even more pro-war than FoxNews, who buried their "Iqaq Gloats" version of that story under three other war articles... Funny.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:54 AM

Report from NYC event Feb 15th

London peace march


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Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 08:17 PM

In isolated 30000-person Juneau, Alaska, the turnout was somewhere between 700 and 1,000 people. (The disparity of figures has to do with estimates. We do know that at one time there were 630 people there, with more coming by the minute. I expect tomorrow's paper will have firmer numbers.)

Lots of us brought our dogs, many of us brought children, and some there were folks well into their 80s. Our lieutenant governor from the previous administration was there and walked right along with us. Our current governor was not to be seen... (Not surprised- Bush apologist.) Lots of media, lots of cameras.

It was a good day; lots of cars beep-beeped their horns in response to some people's 'Honk for Peace' signs. There were only two vehicles who tried to harass us by driving back and forth repeatedly the length of the marching crowd and honking. One was a Corvette and the other was a pickup with a LARGE sign in the bed saying 'Want Peace on Earth? Bomb Iraq Back to the Stone Age'. I admired them for their great insight. Not.

We had several veterans who made their own signs and marched. Pretty sure the two youngish guys in the pickup were not vets.

There was a chill wind blowing but the sun was bright and the sky blue.

I've been reading the accounts of the demonstrations and peace marches- it seems impossible that the Bush administration can ignore us. Can 'Catters come up with a scenario that would allow the government to save face while backing off? I really want to start thinking in those terms.

Ebbie


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