BS: Should I lie or go back to the army

Subject: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: boab d
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 04:37 PM

Hello all, well this is just a wee queston for you all as an ex army medic I heard that all medical personnel will be called up to go and fight in Iraq. The thing is that I'm now 30 years old and I really Cant be arsed going through all of the yes sir no sir thing as its just pish for pishes sake. Now I am totally opposed to any kind of millitary action for the sake of a wee country who has no proven links to terrorism and even if it did have should I lay down my life for some thing I dont beleive in or should I say that I've taken drugs to try and avoid being forcably removed from my home and put into prison for desertion.
Now If the country was under attack then by all means i would get my kit bag out and try and patch up as many people as possible but this is not my fight nor is it my friends who are still in the army so do I lie or do i go to jail
Cheers
Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 04:40 PM

I really feel for you, Dylan. I don't have any advice for you, but I wish you the best of luck with your situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: gaber
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 04:41 PM

you know, just go do it. I mean, it is ultimately up to you, but I would go if I was in your shoes. You could really help people there. I mean our soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: DougR
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 04:43 PM

What you do is your affair, but if I was recalled, I would go.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:04 PM

Shhhhh... What was that? Shhhhhh... There it is again. Oh, it's someone knocking on the door. Hey, Doug, want me to get it fir ya, Pal?"

(Bobert opens the door and there stand to uniformed soldiers. Hmmmm?)

Hey, Dougie, couple of guys out here want to talk with you. Ahhh, bring your toothbrush... Doug? Yo, Dougie...

Bobert

ps... Real easy to say you'd go when you know they wouldn't take you...

pps... Dylan: Are you in the reserves? If so, you may *have* to go unless you're willing to accept the consequences. Aren't there some alternative services you could do other than be part of an invasion?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:07 PM

You are not subject to mobilization unless you are in the Reserves, including Individual Ready Reserves (IRR). If you have received a final, complete discharge you should be exempt, subject to the current law being changed. "Official" information on the current mobilization is here
.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: DougR
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:12 PM

Bobert: I served four years in the National Guard in addition to one year on active duty. During the Korean War it appeared that our division would be activated. The 45th Division in Oklahoma was called instead. Had I been called, I would have gone. No question about it.

DougR

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: boab d
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:13 PM

Hello again but do you not beleive that if you've done your time then you have completed your bit for your country. I left the army as a class one L/Cpl 2 years ago which wasn't the worst thing in the world and when i was in ,I enjoyed it as that was my life. Now I have much more to conscider like my fiancee who knows nothing much about the army, a mortgage and all the usuall stuff that you get when you start looking out for your self .Now I made the cut from the army as a final thing gave all my stuff away and i have one t shirt that i bought left everything else has gone especially my enthusiasm for anything to do with the army. I said I dont fancy dying for a wee bit of political gain or a wee bit of oil, as I dont agree with it, so do you think that I have a case for consciencious objection?
Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: boab d
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:15 PM

I have to say that its the British Army
Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: mg
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:19 PM

Good luck in your decision. I am supporting you either way. I know after the Vietnam war I lived in fear that I would be called up again and I felt I just could not do what I had done before...I'm older now, have lived my life and I would go if I could to spare you..I had a lot of medic-type training in OCS that probably wouldn't do anyone any good now though. And whoever so smartly said it's easy to say something if you are sure they don't want you...if a war should, God/Allah get big enough, they'll want you. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Amos
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:20 PM

There's only one answer BoabD -- ya gotta shed all expectations from friends, from family, from countrymen and decide in the fullest of your own integrity what you, yourself alone, deem the right action. If you go over there on the strength of anything less than that, you'll be miserable at best and at risk. If you stay home on any pretext while honestly believing that you should go you will likewise be miserable at some level. But it has to be truly your own call, no borrowed pictures from others.

So take thee to your mountaintop or spring, wherever you talk deep and truthfully to yourself, and compose your answer, and live with it joyfully which ever one it is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

Myself I'd say that if you are against a war the right thing to do is to refuse to fight in it and take the consequences. Easier said than done.

But for a medic, it's a bit more complicated, because they are there to help look after the people who get damaged in that war. And while it can be said that's a way of helping the war be carried on, thta's maybe a bit too theoretical for me, when there are real people needing to be cared for.

And I don't know how the US Army works in such matters, but by far the largest number of wounded in most modern wars are going to be civilians, and I'd imagine that trying to patch up some of them might be a large part of what a medic ends up doing in this war, assuming that it can't be stopped in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:35 PM

I think you need to know what all the options are, first of all. Like, what is the worst case scenario if you refuse to go if/when the British Army calls upon you? If it is jail time, how much jail time? Would the jail time be more or less hardship for you and your fiance than reporting for active duty? Are you willing to accept the social backlash, and the potential problems with current and future employers? Are there others to talk to who have been through it themselves?

I'm in the US, but I'm guessing there may be at least one or two good organizations giving legal advice to potential conscientious objectors in the British military over this. Here is what I found in a quick web search:

From War Resister's League:

Information for Members of the British Armed Forces

Sad to say that according to this, you are among the group which is most likely to be called up as a reservist. I know it isn't much information, but it is a place to start. One of the better things about the CO application process is it can take quite some time to get through it. If there is a war, and it is short, you will benefit from the prolonged process.

Good luck. It is a tough decision, but if you feel a strong (and I do emphasize strong, as it will have to be to get a CO exemption) moral reason for opposing the war, your chances could be excellent. So--that is my advice. Go for it, but go for it with your eyes wide open.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 06:43 PM

go

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Peg
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:33 AM

Lie.

It's lying that has got us into this mess in the first place...so why not play by the game's established rules? Beats becoming a tool in a war you don't believe in.

I imagine there are many regretful young servicemen and women who signed on in the wake of 9-11 who never dreamed they'd actually be called on to serve active duty. You have done your part. If you object to serving on conscientious objector grounds, can they still arrest you? I can't imagine every nation's mailitary does not have provision for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: stevetheORC
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 03:01 AM

Hi Dylan
Man if you dont want to go then tell them that you are 'Gay' You must know the millitary attitude towards 'Gay's'thats your way out.
And before anyone gets all upset I'm not having a go its the British Millitary establishment that has the problem not me.

Good luck mate

ORC'S Rule OK

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: smallpiper
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 05:35 AM

Don't worry they'll never take you back with that knee injury! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:06 AM

"Gee, I wish I was back in the Army" Danny Kaye & Bing Crosby

(partial quote only; full version see link above)

Gee, I wish I was back in the army
The army wasn't really bad at all
Three meals a day for which you didn't pay
Uniforms for winter, spring and fall
There's a lot to be said for the army
The life without responsibility
A soldier out of luck was never really stuck
There's always someone higher up where you can pass the buck
Oh, gee, I wish I was back in the army

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 06:12 AM

Well. Bit of a tough one and I don't envy you at all.

During the time of the Falklands War I was about 8, and I remember when my dad sat me down and told me that he might have to go off there if his section were called up.

I was distraught, I had a pretty good idea for what went on out there, and a good understanding of what my dad would be in for. I didn't want him to go, threatened to lock him in the loo and push food under the door. I was used to him being away for long periods but this was different.

I was lucky he didn't go, instead was involved with things at home, but some of my other friends were not as lucky.

What ever you decide to do, involve your loved ones as much as you can, tell them all the details, and involve them in your decision. Write a list of your own personal pros cons etc and talk it out.

No one else can tell you what to do, go with what ever your heart tells you to do.

Good Luck...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Dead Horse
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 05:47 PM

It aint likely they'd want a 56yr old B2 driver who was a crack shot with a bren & SLR, who used to lead retreats on his own initiative, and who rose to the dizzy heights of L/Cpl, but if they asked me, I'd go. As for you, being a medic should mean you wont be required within 5000 mile of any action. Dont lose sleep, mate:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 08:00 PM

Well "boab" ... no one can accuse you of being boring! It seems to me you have two (2) issues. Number one, what are the legal requirements of your present status? Are you in an active reserve status? If that is the case, then, by current American law, you have signed a piece of paper (contract) that obligates you to go if and when you are ever recalled to active duty. I assume that you were of legal age when you entered the service, signed that paper, and agreed to it's terms. The other issue, as I see it, is much tougher. It has to do with your personal ethics. Here, no one else can help you. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT HAS TO SLEEP WITH YOURSELF! If you have credible moral issues with the war at hand, then you have a delemma. If a recall is 'inconvient' for you right now, you have a delemma. Either way, only YOU can decide.

For your information, I also was a medic, in the American Army. After my active duty service, I also was recalled to active duty, by President Kennedy, during the Berlin Wall Crisis, in 1962. I didn't hesitate to go ... I felt it was my obligation, committment, and duty to go. And I would again, but I suspect that the Army wouldn't know what to do with a 65 year olde folksinger who knows a lot of war protest songs.

... seriously ... give this some very careful thought. What you decide will affect you for a long time. Best wishes, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Neighmond
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 09:03 PM

Meditate, Pray, or do whatever you need to to clear your brain and seek council with whomever guides you in these issues.
This sounds like a cop out.
It isn't.
Whichever course of action you take, take because you want to.

Godspeed in whichever journey you undertake.

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 09:08 PM

To "Dead Horse" ... by the way, in case you didn't know it, combat medics were right up on the front line with a rifle squad. When I was in, a 'rifle squad' was nine men: 8 soldiers with the weapons, and the second to the last man was the medic. And also, in case you didn't know it, the medic wore a cross on his helmet. Early on, this cross became the target, because they knew that if the medic was killed, the combat team would get the hell out of there! ... just for your information! Bob P.S. I actually served with a man, a medic who had won the Congressional Medal of Honor, awarded for bravery in combat. He wouldn't talk about it ... but I know his name.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 09:10 PM

I missed that post where boab said it was the British Army, because I was writing my one assuming (on statistical grounds) that he was probably American.

Not that it makes much difference. Except that over here, with people generally being against the war, someone refusing to serve might expect to have a lot more support from friends and neighbours than in the States.

Here's a link to a practical page about Conscientious Objection for people in the services - the authorities have alway resisted the idea of accepting that people can have a conscientious objection to specific wars because they see them as "unjust", but a situation where there's a war, and less than one in ten people support it (which was the latest poll on the BBC), it might be harder for them to hold this line.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST,Joss.
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:43 AM

As an ex-British Army soldier, (twelve years service), I say you
should go, turn up at the recruiting office, or whatever, the day
after Tony Blair and George W. Bush enlist.
                                                                         J. McL.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Fairbanks
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:07 AM

It's a tough decision. I was in the artillery during Vietnam and I served although I didn't really believe in the war. In retrospect, I think many of the things we did there were wrong. However, one of my best friends was a medic in our unit, and a conscientious objector (he did not carry a sidearm as did most medics). As we were like-minded about the war, he invited me to go with him (with the permission of our CO) to go into surrounding villages and help the children and older people with basic medical care. We also visited a local orphanage a number of times. I still wonder what happened to some of those kids. Those are some of my saddest and yet fondest memories. If I had it to do over again, I would have enlisted in the medical corps. Some of the firing missions got pretty ugly in the artillery.

I doubt that they would know what to do with a 56 year old retired bureaucrat and banjo player, so I guess I am lucky :0)

God bless you and I hope your decision leaves you with a peaceful heart. I share your concerns about what the US is doing with Iraq.

Shalom.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:20 AM

ALL religions consider it a SIN to lie.

You committed - it is YOUR duty

Honor is something that can NEVER be replaced.

If you are called - GO and do so.....PROUDLY.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:05 AM

And register anonymously perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:06 AM

Would it make any difference to the Government's attitude if the list of those suited for conscription was headed by Tony Blair's son ?
Unlike the politicians, at least one of the Queen's sons saw active duty in the Falklands conflict.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:35 AM

I'm curious about the "using drugs" bit. Does this mean having used marijuana once, or being a hard core heroin addict? If it means a single use of marijuana, maybe you should have a puff and then you won't have to lie about it.

The next problem might be whether they do medical tests to confirm the drug use. What is a "pass" mark?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:40 AM

all the advice in the world may be just that boab... but go with what ever your conscience allows but make sure you make no decision lightly. There's loads of experiences on here... some evidence based by those who've had to make the decision, and some not so much backed by experiences but by their own ideas of what goes on.

As for me, I'm absolutely terrified of any sort of War, wether it's words, propaganda or any actual physical war. They all terrify the living daylights out of me.

But I respect anyone with the courage to carry out their own convictions, which ever way they lean - whether you decide to go or not. I respect people, like my dad - who was ordered to go off and do things because they HAD to (being in the army). Just as I respect people who've seen terrible conflicts at first hand experiences - though I don't agree with the conflicts sometimes I can see that the people on the ground are there because they are told to be.

I don't necessarily respect the people behind those decisions, the politicians, beaurocrats and the dictators that runs the different countries.

Peace would be lovely, but it's too niaeve of me to expect that - and not at all realistic.

One thing though that would get me out there would be the thought of helping colleagues and friends as a trained medic.

But... Still I don't envy your decision at all. I've always said if I was called up I'd be the first one running in the opposite direction and being just plain too terrified to go. But then circumstances change.

Think hard, don't take all that's written down on here to heart - and at the end of the day... make your own decision!

The UN was set up to stop precisely this thing happening and it's scary it could be over ridden by any ruler at all. And Fairbanks I think your message was a reflection of my thoughts too. (I liked your story too).

Good luck again.

May the Road Rise up to Meet You
May the Wind be Always at Your Back
May the Sun Shine Upon Your Face
The Rains Fall Soft Upon Your Fields
And, Until We Meet Again,
May God Hold You in the Palm of His Hand

(an Irish saying I'm rather fond of)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 06:41 AM

The Queen commands and we obey, Over The Hills And Far Away.....
Do your duty and go, do you want to live forever?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: stevetheORC
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:46 AM

Um!!! yes please can you arange it?

Orc's Hate violence except where Effing Elf's are concerned

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: CET
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 09:21 AM

Well, BOAB, it doesn't sound like you have much of a case for conscientious objector status, since your objections seem to have more to do with the inconvenience to you if you should be called up than with any fixed moral objection to military service.

You might also consider that your former comrades will need you.

If you really do have a strong moral objection to serving in the Army again, then of course you should do what you believe to be right. As most people have said in this thread, that is a decision that you must make for yourself.

Edmund

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM

Medics are important people. You may be able to make the difference between life and death for someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM

Nigel P - There are no conscripts in the British Armed Forces

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:08 AM

On the matter of going to war, I recall that at the beginning of World War II a bunch of about twenty Shoshones showed up at a recruiting station in Montana with their 30-30s. They had heard that there was a war on and they wanted to get into it as quickly as possible. That may not be the Spirit of `76, but it is indeed the spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:43 PM

Boab D said, in part:

"Now I am totally opposed to any kind of millitary action for the sake of a wee country"...

Iraq, as I look at the globe, is hardly "a wee country"; it's roughly the size of France.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST,Cynic
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:10 PM

The only way in which a Brit will be called up is if they are in the TA. You've taken the queen's shilling to play soldier-boy. Now those of us who have paid your money expect you to get on and do what you were being paid for. Though from your post morals don't appear to be your strong point.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:20 PM

Being a reserve is not the same as being in the Territorial Army. A reserve is someone who at one time was in the Services, perhaps many years ago, but is legally liable to be recalled under certain circumstances.

The Territorial Army is made up of people who have joined a volunteer force which trains so as to be available ton be mobilised when reequired, and receives some payment in return.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST,Cynic
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:45 PM

OK McGrath - I didn't understand that and Boab should act in accordance with his concience. Thanks for the info.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:21 PM

The Modern Samurai

Mindset makes a Samurai. Service to society.
Courage--the courage to take responsibility for
ALL of your actions, for ALL of your statements.
Living each day as if it might be your last--it
very well might be. Awareness--being alert to your
surroundings, relaxed but vigilant. The
sensitivity to acknowledge the beauty, the sorrow,
the humorous in the sights and events you
encounter every day. The bravery to move, to act,
to respond instantly in an emergency without
hesitation, without worrying about the opinions of
others, if you sincerely believe that this is what
needs to be done. Striving constantly to improve,
to better yourself so that you will make a
positive difference in your little corner of the
world. Knowing how to die with calm resolve
because you die "defending the right and the
good."

Author unknown

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:48 PM

"the courage to take responsibility for
ALL of your actions, for ALL of your statements."

"GUEST"...

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: stevetheORC
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:31 PM

Hi Cynic why dont you go and play hop-scotch in a Mine field theres a nice little fellow.

Orc

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: mg
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:01 PM

Cynic, morals don't seem to be your strong suit. Slavery has been outlawed. He or she?? put his/her life on the line and unless you did too, and are speaking as a comrade in arms rather than a purchaser of his very life, shut the hell up. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 05:26 AM

Just to elaborate and further clarify something that MGoH said in one of his posts above:

"A reserve is someone who at one time was in the Services, perhaps many years ago, but is legally liable to be recalled under certain circumstances."

In the UK, on leaving the Forces, depending upon what branch of the Army, Navy or Air Force you served in and what specialisation within that branch you held, you MAY be required to fulfil a term in the Reserves. The criteria for this constantly changes. The normal maximum time of this commitment is five years (although I have heard of seven years in extremely rare and exceptional circumstances), after which your obligations are considered to be complete. Your reserve time can be altered, but the term can only be reduced - not increased, irrespective of circumstances.

In my case, on leaving the Royal Navy, the five year term applied. Within two years of my leaving it was decided that the specialist role, for which I was qualified, was better suited to personnel trained by the Army. With that decision taken I was advised by MOD(N) that my reserve time was no longer applicable and that I could consider it completed.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 05:40 AM

Teribus:

"Nigel P - There are no conscripts in the British Armed Forces "

to that I would add the caveat 'At present'. Conscription ended a long time after WWII, and with the government deploying troops for a war which has not yet been debated by Parliament, can anyone be certain conscription will never return?

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:55 AM

McGrath, your hatred of anyone who posts as Guest is obvious; which is more than I can say about your point in the above post. Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: boab d
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:24 PM

Hello again I have read all of this thread for the first time since coming back from working in the north sea as an oil rig medic and there were a few points that I'd like to make just to clarify

I object to the possible war in Iraq for the simple reason that the administrations of both the uk and usa are only doing this for oil no other reason if this is not the case then why did Mr Blair hold a meeting of all exiled Iraqie leaders in the UK to put in place a leader when Saddam has been removed from power. They are talking of all the attrocities that saddam has committed and yes he has but if you look at what the Americans are doing in cuba then are they not in breach of human rights also but since they are not held under any law what does that say for the American stand on the issues. If there are real reasons then i might change my opinion but look around the world and you'll see a lot worse ie. any where in Africa but hey they dont have the same oil reserves. Why dont they go in there and try and finish off Somalia? More to the point there is more connection to Saudi Arabia than to Iraq over 9/11 so why not go over and start giving the Saudies a pasting while we're at it. Then you've got the whole North Korea thing as well surely they must be more dangerous than a country who has had no support from the international community over the past 12 years.


Why Should I go and fight or die for "my country" (i use the term very loosely) when I have served 2 tours of Kosovo thatt was 1 year of my life in a coflict zone, now that doesnt seem a lot but that is 365 days continually worried looking over your back and being generally scared for my crews and my own safety and l came home safely but there are people who dont come home at all.

Being a medic I also need to look at all people the same Iraqie or coalition soldiers it doesnt matter as my job is to prevent death and promote recovery no creed shall be treated differently.

The Prime Minister of the UK has the power to recall all reserve soldiers to arms without an act of parliament this means that if he decides to go to war then it doesn't have to go to the commons so he can do what he wants if the truth be told.

If i have no real grounds as a moral objector then do over 1million people in the UK who marched on Sunday have no moral objections either. I have stated what I feel is wrong with the war and if its not to some peoples liking then thats fine but its a choice that will have to be made should the call up arise. This will be made by my fiancee family and friends right or wrong its going to be a hard choice and if it happens then i will try to do what i feel is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Giac
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 04:17 PM

Give a listen to Arlo Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant -- then hie thee to the Group W bench.

Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: DougR
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 04:47 PM

boab: if you were called, and decided not to go, where could you go? In the U. S. everybody goes to Canada. Is there a safe haven such as that in Europe?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: boab d
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 04:59 PM

probably jail i think if i chose not to go i would take what was coming and accept it. i may dissagree but i wouldnt run away i would have to take what came my way.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: stevetheORC
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 05:43 PM

Once again the simple solution. Just say your 'Gay' you know damn well what the response will be 'Thank you but no Thanks' and of you trott.
Again the disclaimer 'This is not a attack on gay people it's an attack on the Millitary mentality'
Hope all goes well for you

Orc

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 08:56 PM

Boab-

At least you're still in position to make a decision. If you make the wrong decision your options are going to diminish quickly.

I made a good decision in 1965, another in 1968, and I'm glad I'm still around in 2003 to appreciate my courage and luck.

Good luck!
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: CET
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 10:42 PM

Boab:

I was only going by your first post, which indeed gave no basis at all for conscientious objector status. You do seem to have some moral views on the war. Unfortunately, I can't see how you are any further ahead in establishing yourself as a conscientious objector. This requires, if I understand the situation in Britain, a fixed moral objection to participation in war of any sort. A disagreement with the government about this particular operation is unlikely to be accepted as a reason for granting you CO status.

I also was not trying to convince you to return to the colours. When I said that this was a decision that you will have to take yourself, I meant it. You have already served your country (and I don't use the term loosely)well in Kosovo, and I would never criticize you as a shirker.

I do think, however, that there is some incoherence in your views on Iraq. You surely cannot be serious in comparing the situation of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, who are well fed, properly clothed, given medical care, and allowed to practice their religion with the victims of Saddam Hussein. The case against him as a torturer and murderer is established beyond dispute.

Also, the U.S. and Britain are not preparing for war against Saddam Hussein because he is an evil man. One of the great weaknesses of the American position so far has that it seems to suggest that the military action is justified by Saddam's evil nature. The fact is that he is an evil man who unquestionably possesses biological and chemical weapons, has refused to comply with the U.N. resolutions ordering him to give these weapons up and to provide proof that he has done so, and has demonstrated a willingness to use these weapons. He is therefore a genuine danger to other nations, and particularly the U.S. and Britain. He probably does not have a nuclear capability, but he has certainly made efforts to obtain it. He has violated every U.N. resolution ever passed against him, and will never comply unless forced to do so. If that can be accomplished without war, so much the better. Unfortunately, a demand is hardly credible if your opponent knows you will not put it into effect.

North Korea does indeed pose a danger, and the rest of the world will have to do something about it at some point. However, the fact that there is a danger in North Korea does not mean that there is no danger from Saddam's Iraq.


So, in answer to the question at the beginning of this thread, I don't think you should lie. Tell the truth. I hope you think about it carefully first, though.

Best wishes

Edmund

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 03:11 AM

Nigel,

In answer to your question, the return of conscription? Possible - Yes - Probable - No.

Even when National Service was phased out in 1957, only the Army was accepting National Servicemen - neither the Royal Navy or Air Force could use them. The armed forces have got a lot more technical since then and we no longer have the staff, bases or resources to train a massive influx of recruits. There was a link in a thread about Sergeant Chef's in the Parachute Regiment being put in charge of training squads.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I lie or go back to the army
From: GUEST,Charmion at work
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 02:33 PM

Speaking as another ex-medic, Boab, I suggest that you should, first, remember that, while you may not "believe in war" or care about the fate of the world's oil companies, you certainly believe in caring for the wounded and sick. Iraq is going to be full of wounded and sick people, at least some of whom will be British soldiers just like you used to be.

On the practical level, you should find out what your legal obligations really are, and the true extent of your likely liability. If the coming excursion is anything like Gulf War I, by the time they get around to digging you out, the tumult and the shouting will be over and the captains and kings will be long gone. Plan your prevarications to the Personnel Selection Officer (or your bolt to Bolivia) when that OHMS letter is actually in your letter box.

When you have found out the facts (not your fears), you should talk the whole thing out with your fiancee and your employer. You may find you have less of a potential crisis on your hands than you think.