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Are you a musician or a showman?
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Subject: Are you a musician or a showman? From: jimmyt Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM My folk group performed last night. 200 or so folks who were absolutely wowed by our music. We did a pretty good job in our performance, not perfect, but pretty good. My point is that because we were playing mostly folk music from 1960 era, and the audience was all 50-65 years old, they absolutely loved the music. Most of them were singing along with the music quietly all evening. They knew all of it. They were all teenagers and young adults when this music was popular. Because of that, we, the performers, were on a high that is kind of hard to describe. I wonder how many folks get their high from pleasing an audience and how many are purely into the quality of the music itself. I guess I am suggesting that there is a difference between musicianship and performance. Just curious jimmyt |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: the lemonade lady Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:22 AM I don't play an instrument, I sing. I really love singing and performing to an audience. I like to watch their faces. Will do it again tonight too. Sal |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Don Firth Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:09 PM Yes, there is a difference, but they are not mutually exclusive. If you can combine the two, you have a winning combination. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: jimmyt Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:22 PM I agree, Don. . They are not mutually exclusive, but I guess I would much rather play for free for 5 people who really get the music than a full auditorium well paid gig for folks who don't appreciate it. We played a Christmas party for a bunch of 30 year old junior execs who kept requesting Rocky Top and Free Bird. Nice folks, having a good time, but we were pretty much Muzac to them..Just some noise to fill the void. Paid us a thousand dollars for an hour. It was pretty much a rehearsal. We left that job not being angry but sort of not appreciated either. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Frankham Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:34 PM Hey JimmyT, I think that finding an audience is a good part of being a good showman(woman). If you are giving folks what they need, then you can't miss. In a sense, every musician is a "showman" because they generally at one time or another play for someone else. They "show" others how it's done. What constitutes being a musician is about the same level of discussion as to what is a folk song. Musicians often vehemently disagree on the subject. Ie: for some classical musicians, it might be inconceivable to consider the Carter Family or Son House as being musicians. There are snobs in every form of music. I've heard Pat Metheny rail about Kenny G, folkies of the fifties rail about Eddie Fisher, Leonard Feather rail about "moldy figs" (traditional jazz players, and all kinds of self-style critics trying to mold their listeners to their taste. Frank Sinatra is a "showman". Pete Seeger is one. Granpa' Jones, B.B.King, is, Bill Monroe was, Elvis........... but even obscure figures can put on a show if the time and audience is right. It has to do with how well you communicate with a given audience. As to the rubric of "musician" well it depends on what music you're talking about and who you're talking to. I like what Charlie Parker said, "Don't call it jazz, call it music." Why not the same for any form of music. Another thing, just 'cause I don't like it doesn't mean that it isn't any good. George Bernard Shaw said, "Wagner's music is better than it sounds." Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: mack/misophist Date: 12 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM Has any one here heard the old Chinese story about the man who was the world's greatest musician? He had a friend who was the world's best listener. When the friend died, the musician cut the strings of his lute. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Don Firth Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:26 PM I've met a number of classical musicians who thought folk music, jazz, and Broadway show tunes were "beneath the salt," but I've never met a good classical musician or singer who didn't believe that "music is music," managed to learn something from just about everything they heard, and appreciated almost all other good musicians, no matter what their schtick. In the late Fifties, I got a lot of grief at the University of Washington School of Music: "When are you going to stop messing around with those 'cowboy songs' and get serious?" So I transferred to the Cornish School of the Arts, where Lochram Johnson, then the head of the music department, said, "We don't care if you want to play tissue-paper and comb, just as long as you're serious about what you do." I've had occasion to perform for crowds as large as 15,000 (Seattle Center Hootenannies in 1963), but my favorite kind of performing is the house concert. Intimate, informal, there I can be more like a real minstrel. There, you have to be both a showman and a musician. You have to entertain a roomful of people close up, and at that range, any sloppy musicianship is going to be pretty obvious. Other kinds of performing might be more rewarding financially, but I find this kind of performing very satisfying. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Leadfingers Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:26 PM I agree with you Jim If the audience isnt enjoying the show it doesnt matter how much you get paid.But its GREAT when you get well paid and the audience really likes it as well. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: alanabit Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:46 PM Lots of good sense here. I have always loved that quote about Wagner's music Frank, but I have seen it attributed to your own Mark Twain. Does Mudcat have an authority on this subject? It sounds like Mark Twain to me because it is so irreverent, but Shaw was a music critic before his playwriting career took off, so I would be rash to shoot my mouth off... I think I would rate myself as a better showman than musician - which is fortunate for someone who has busked for over twenty years. However,I like to try and do it all as well as I can and I take my guitar practice very seriously, even though I have very modest ability as a guitarist. When I am playing gigs, I always try and play the best music I can get away with. When I was younger I would make any sort of a noise to get a reaction from the audience. I love entertaining folks, but doing just anything to get them moving leaves me feeling pretty cheap. That is not intended to sound disrespectful to people who do that. I appreciate their craft and bottle - but it's not where I want to be. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:39 AM I am a musician I am a professional. I do not flash for cash.
Let the glory and the applause go to the showman
Sincerely,
Proud to be in the background. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:17 AM It depends on the situation. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Gurney Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:15 AM I'm a showman. I wish I could play like the musiciams that I admire, but despite LOTS of practice, I can't. However, if wishes were horses, beggers would ride, so I'll just do what I can, and enjoy. Jimmyt, nice thread, and if you get the same audience, see if you can tease them into standing up, and then..."OK, you can't sing loudly sitting down, so lets get into a Shanty..." It only works once, but it works well. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Mad Tom Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:54 AM RE: Are you a musician or a showman? Never in front of people. I like to pick up the guitar, and zone out. More of a meditation activity, if anything. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Feb 03 - 09:45 AM Yes, both. I'm primarily wearing my musician hat when I listen, learn, jam, practice/rehearse, write, lead our band or a jam, choose material, teach, arrange, and so forth. I am primarily wearing the showman hat when the people are out there, hoping the wearing of the other hat has been effective preparation. As a showman (showoman) I use all at my disposal for the audience to get what it seems to need from us, including my musicianship. The attention is on them, not on how great we are. (Because "showman" does not equal "showoff".) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Kim C Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:00 AM It seems like, with me anyway, there's this invisible switch that gets turned on. I like to be on stage, I like to be the center of attention, and I have fun with it. And at the end of the day, I put my toys back in the box till next time. However, I am serious about playing and singing. It's not so important to me to BE perfect as it is to STRIVE for the best level I can personally attain. So what does that make me? |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM A constantly evolving and improving goddess who, in the wake of her excellence, stimulates the best in the people around her... ttr |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: PeteBoom Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM Absolutely. My job is to play music to the very best of my ability each and every time I play for someone. It doesn't matter if it is 15,000 or 15 people I'm playing for - they put their money down and deserve the best performance I can give them. The venue may change how the music gets delivered, but I always do the best I can to deliver it. Cheers - Pete |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: M.Ted Date: 13 Feb 03 - 02:33 PM Do you need to hoot like a goon to get the audience to respond, or can you do it by discreetly squeezing a string? That's the real question-- |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: jimmyt Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM MTed, I know what you are talking about, but, I guess my original question was more about how you interact with the crowd. I love the music I play but I am afraid bad or good, I am first and foremost an entertainer. I just cringe when one of our group waxes on for 5 minutes about Tom Paxton or Gordon Lightfoot and their contributions to folk music while I watch the audience looking bewildered with that, "I just like the song" look on their face. There are 2 people im my group that are entertainers, the other 2 are musicians. They are very good at what they do, but when the song stops, they are at a total loss of how to keep the audience fresh and interested and having a good time. Whatever, I am not criticizing either faction, but just think it is interesting how we all approach the same situation entirely differently |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Kim C Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM Wow, thanks Thomas, I kinda like that. :-) M. Ted, I have been known to hoot like a goon - but only at things like cookouts, campfires and guitar pulls, with people I know, and after I've had a few shandies. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: M.Ted Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:30 PM Not to be misunderstood, Jimmyt, I think either one is a valid form of entertainment, the business of waxing as the audiences wanes is bad form indeed. Don't be afraid to break it up by whatever means necessary---pretending to doze off, then falling over always gets the audience back--it is a bit on the goon side, though-- |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Frankham Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:54 PM Alanabit, as I think of it, it might have been Twain. GBS did like Wagner, though and was a staunch defender in his criticism. I like to give as much interesting background or history about a song that I sing. In folk music, I think this is really important. Even if the information is questionable in it's factual content but gives some insight into the song, I think it's important. Each song does have a history whether it's a pop or folk song. Sometimes letting the audience in on the background brings the song to life. I have been criticized for giving a "history lesson" by some who just think that the song should stand on it's own. I believe that folk music may require footnotes at times. The best kind is sharing personal experiences about the music or if you have an association with the writer or the person you learned it from. Or your personal experience with the sub-culture that fostered it. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: M.Ted Date: 13 Feb 03 - 05:53 PM The threads where people compare notes on song origins, with the variant lyrics, the links to related songs, and the debates about whether a particular song is a variation or a different song, are my favorite part of mudcat. It goes without saying that I enjoy it when a performer tells a bit of the history, or an anecdote about the creation of a song--at least, if it is prepared and presented with the same care that the song is--Frank used the word "interesting"--and that is the key to it all-- |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: DonMeixner Date: 13 Feb 03 - 06:46 PM I may musish from time to time and I may perfrom well from time to time. BUt what I hope I do all the time is entertain. Don |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 13 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM Hoot of the Goon... Mind if I use this as a song title Ted? It's perty funny! ttr |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: M.Ted Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:06 PM Thomas, The preferred form is "Hoot like a goon"--I am glad you liked it--It has a certain rhythm to it, and it allows the use of all the hackneyed rhymes, as well. Please feel free to make whatever use of it you can--of course I expect credit for my part in it, kind of like they do with sampling:-) |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Leadfingers Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:07 PM It all depends on where you are and what you are doing,If you are in a Folk Club environment some kind of explanation may be almost mandatory,in a concert situation it might be totally lost.I personally feel that an explanation of the background to a song is NEVER wasted But dont let being erudite get in the way of being entertaining. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Cornflake Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:17 PM Interesting question to which I don't have a fully coherent answer. Under the broad category of musicians are people who do very different things. In our group we have a guitar player whose focus is on playing the guitar and a harmonica player whose focus is on playing harmonica. I sing and play instruments but my focus is on writing the material we do. We have another guy whose orientation is as an entertainer. When I'm writing songs, I'm a musician. When I'm assembling a set, I'm aware that I'm responsible for 45 minutes or whatever of the audience's lives and I want to make it the richest 45 minutes I can. That doesn't always consist of entertainment in a narrow sense--it may include challenges and surprises--but there had better be some entertainment or there won't be an audience. Maybe I'm lucky, but I can basically do what I want to do as a musician and have an audience find it entertaining. A long way of saying I agree with those who don't find this an either-or kind of choice. Or, yeah, both. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Guy Wolff Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:30 PM A Musiciian Or a Showman ??.. Interesting . i have been reading Issac Stern's book lately and he talks about what it takes to make music WITH people. In other words being with the people you are playing for.Making that kind of conection is only being respectfull to the room you are playing in but takes Ego force. i played for Stern once at a picnick and he complimented me on haveing alot of heart. (So my skill was'nt even on the same planet as Sterns he liked the energy of the comunication that was going on. ) Remember the story about the tree falling in the forest? Well one set of ears will hear a musician two sets hear a showman. All the best to all here. Guy |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Jimmy C Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:39 PM I believe you have to be a little of both. Depending on the situation/venue you may have to be more of a musician one night and at other times be an entertainer. I try to have a mix, 3 slow songs followed by three faster ones with somw short ( and I mean short) stories or jokes thrown in. I hate it when someone explains what the song is about and the explanation is about 4 times longer that the song. Being an entertainer I hold no limits, if it calls for dressing up in funny hats or by acting the loonie then thats what I will do. I however would never act up during a sentimental type ballad. As much as I love folk music I must admit that I have listened to some good singers and good musicians who would put you to sleep, but just do your thing and if you and the audienec get something out of it fair play to you. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:11 AM Some people in this thread appear to have problems with a multiple personality disorder.
Sincerely, Mind your manners, Garg. I had to delete two of your posts yesterday. This one I'll let go because it isn't specific - but if I see even a mild attack from you against any individual, I'll delete it without a second thought. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Steve Parkes Date: 14 Feb 03 - 03:24 AM Garg, I love the way you pull the sting from an offensive comment by signing off with "sincerely"! You're an asshole. No offence. Most of the people I've ever appeared in front of have responded well to being entertained. I'me sure they'd have responded just as well to a fine musician, be it Segovia or Satriani; but as I'm not in that league, I have to make sure folks are enjoying the performance. That Yehudi Menuhin had a well-developed sense of fun, you know. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Guy Wolff Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:23 PM steve , I spent an evening hanging onto the outside of a church in my town that Menuhin was playing at solo. It was a hot August evening and I was 10-15 feet from the man .. He kept my secret ( Tickets were $100.00 that I didnt have..) At the end while the others were clapping for him he gave a clap for me holding on through the whole thing... yes he has a sence of humor !! Sorry thread bleed !! All the best Guy |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: sharyn Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:06 PM I am much more musician than showwoman: I communicate my love of music through loving the music, letting the song come through me when I sing. And, yes, I can talk, and do when the occasion warrants it, but am better known for advising less talk, more music in my workshops and performances. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Neighmond Date: 15 Feb 03 - 12:41 AM I am not the potter, nor the potter's wheel I am but a lump of earth relying on his Skill |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 15 Feb 03 - 11:26 PM I've seen a lot of traditional bands on stage in the last 20 years. Here are a few things I've seen that denote real lack of showmanship. 1. When a number is done, the audience applauds enthusiastically, but the musicians hang their heads as if ashamed. They don't smile, say thank you or even look at the audience. 2. One band member does all the talking. Are the others deaf and dumb? 3. In the words of a friend of mine, a band member plays like a demon, then sinks into a trance. Has he any interest in us? 4. The audience members are nicely dressed because this is a special occasion to them, but the musicians look like they live under a bridge. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: John MacKenzie Date: 16 Feb 03 - 08:54 AM Do you have any other choices? Giok |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 16 Feb 03 - 02:20 PM Thanks Leenia! Nice epithets... I really laughed on #4... Common ground is important, as is the the feeling of freshness... But telling baudy jokes to a dinning hall filled with calm middle aged contry club dinners might be unwise... Or, not telling the those same jokes to a rowdy bar party raging into the night... But for me, pleasing the audience is important, ... I've just got to do it my way... Some of the audiences are so diverse, that some songs are going to annoy one 'type' of person and simultaniously 'turn on' another... "there's no accounting for taste", and "that's what makes horse racing!". The lowest common denomination of every show is different, and each one is flux.... no hard and fast rules... adage prone, here all alone... ttr |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Cornflake Date: 16 Feb 03 - 07:46 PM leeneia, funny. By the way, I do almost all the talking when my group plays but it isn't because I love the sound of my voice. It's because most of the other people in the group are uncomfortable talking. (One doesn't mind talking but, when the rest of us let him do it once, we decided to stifle him thereafter.) And we need some talking between songs for various reasons, one of which is so that the harmonica player, after using up all that oxygen, has a chance to breathe and recuperate so he won't faint during the next song. So there may be a good reason why there's a monolopgue from one person. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Janice in NJ Date: 19 Jan 04 - 12:14 AM I started another thread a while back on the topic of showman versus musician. My brother Warren says that it's best to be both, but if you had to choose, it's better to be a showman. There are many technically skilled musicians who just cannot hold an audience. On the other hand, there are plenty of showmen with only passable technical skills who can knock 'em over dead. Case in point: my friend Steve Suffet. Warren and I went to see him along with Lydia Davis in New York City this past Saturday night. Lydia was good, great in fact, but Steve is a showman like few others. His performance was nearly an hour of nonstop action, although most of his songs required only three or four simple guitar chords. Steve's trick is to get everyone involved. Almost all his songs have choruses that are easy to pick up, or else they are so well known that the audience can join in from memory. His backup musicians, a banjo picker and a fiddler, were both technically very accomplished, much more so than Steve himself, and they knew just how and when to cover Steve's own instrumental weakness. He uses his powerful (some might say too powerful) voice to his advantage, and he brought with him an array of backup vocalists who he kept allowing to take lead. On top of this, he would call on people to come up from the audience to join him on the choruses. He even did this during the sound checks when a he started making up a song about a young girl, maybe 5 years old, who was there with her parents. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 04 - 01:34 PM There will always be those who praise the abilities of very accomplished musicianship and rightly so. There, too, will always be those who will praise the abilities of excellent entertainers. There is, of course, room for both on any stage, at any venue. It really depends upon the decided direction of your particular personal goals. I've seen/heard musicians who could set their instruments on fire with their amazing skill and could combine vocally with others into harmonies that could bring tears to your eyes. I have also seen/heard folks who, with only words, no music, could have the same audience rolling on the floor laughing with tears of joy and hilarity. I think each method has the capacity to win the attention of an audience either dramatically or comically or in any combination. Entertainment has many facets. The function of musical orchestration to a band member, soloist or singer is not unlike the skill used by any actor/poet/writer/comic who uses only words to set a mood. Each uses simple elements like notes or words combined with techniques like timing to balance those elements with emptiness to express a feeling, make a point or tell a story and ultimately entertain an audience. I've tried to offer both to the folks that have been kind enough to take the time to listen. I have also had friends of the "musical" sort misunderstand my choice to offer both. They could not find a comfortable role to play or felt too out of place during the nonmusical entertainment portion of the show. As a musician, they only saw the value of the music and felt that anything else was not as important or simply did not understand how to function outside of a musical context. I recognized their inability to know what to do with themselves during those parts and began suggesting ideas that would compliment/supplement what I was attempting to explore while on stage together. It worked perfectly. Now, instead of not understanding what to do and feeling out of place until the next song started, they had a defined role or task that made them a part of what was happening. Their additional support during the nonmusical portions made those parts as strong or in some instances stronger than the songs we played together. What a revelation that was for me as an entertainer. I don't always understand how to best direct those who are uncomfortable outside their musical roles, and some just plain refuse to see the value of anything beyond their very serious musical pursuits. That's okay. There's room enough for all on the stage of life. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: C-flat Date: 19 Jan 04 - 03:55 PM Over the years I've learned to play in many different musical styles and, although I have my favourites, enjoy the opportunity to get in front of an audience and entertain them with whatever's on the bill. I suppose that must make me a showman, although I always favour songs that give a little room for the musician in me to shine rather than belt out a three chord trick just because I know it will go down well with the punters.(but that's probably the showman in me wanting to show off?) C-flat. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: greg stephens Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:54 AM leeneia: you've obviously spent a lot of time watching my band and making notes on the performance style. Do make youself known next time you're in the audience. (Mind you, you won't recognise us: having studied your excellent post we are consdering some modification of the stage act). |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:02 AM Refresh |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Bobert Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:08 AM Depends on the situation... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Rapparee Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:45 AM I missed this earlier, probably because when it came out I was Out West interviewing for the job I now hold. But if you go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back, all the way back to Aristotle and the "Poetics" you'll find this sort of thing discussed. Not in his tragedy, at least I hope not, but as spectacle and comedy. And even with tragedy, Big Ari wasn't against the use of spectacle. I think you have to figure out why you're Up There. If it's to teach you could do it better in another setting. If it's strictly entertainment, a fireworks display or even a good old fashioned hanging would do as well. If it's a combination of the two, you have to figure out the percentages. It appears to me that folks today treat music as background. Even at rock festivals they don't seem to get into the music as much as they do the nosh pits or, God help us!, the portapotties. In clubs, at least in the US, it seems worse. Talking while the performance is going on, taking cell phone calls of no obvious urgency, smoking in no-smoking areas...rudenesses of the first order. Makes me want to smack 'em just for living. I vote for being both, unashamedly both. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:03 AM No one has ever accused me of being a musician, a show-off, YES! My introductions are better than my songs, and may inform or amuse and also they put off the awful moment when I try to sing! If I were trying to entertain professionally, I'd starve! RtS "A face made for radio, a voice made for mime" |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: GUEST,Guest: Richard Date: 21 Jan 04 - 12:13 PM Music is the thing for me; whatever kind of showmanship you use to put it over. BUT, due to nerves/stage fright, I can't even sing "The wild rover to a bunch of friends without putting on a "larger than life" type of act. Sod the audience - 'tis I that needs showmanship. I suspect I'm not alone. |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: Folkiedave Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:31 PM Having spent sometime putting the programme of a festival together then I tried whenever I could to make sure the two were wll mxedup for an evening's entertainment. But to my mind no-one can go wrong with the great Vin Garbutt......the man who can do it all......... Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Are you a musician or a showman? From: GUEST,Frosty Date: 21 Jan 04 - 06:42 PM Sorry, wrong thread, I thought it said "snowman." |
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