BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'

Subject: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:41 AM

"I've paid my dues man!" I haven't come across this phrase often lately, but I was reintroduced to it recently. It came up on the site of a British singer. She had been in a good band and gone to the US.
The band had broken up and she had survived by cleaning hotel rooms and singing in a covers band.
   I have never achieved fame and fortune and my prospects of doing so appear to be receding along with my hairline. I have been assaulted and threatened by drunks, businessmen and "a more important musician", hauled off stages, had things thrown at me and sent out of towns by the police or by petty officials. I have played on the street with broken toes tapping the cold pavement as I one man banded. I have had a voice collapse with blood in my throat. I have played through a relapse from hepatitis. I have slept in pig sties, railway stations and backs of cars and had my gags, songs and routines ripped off by other performers who gave me no credit at all.
   So tell me 'Catters, have I "paid my dues" or have I just been telling you about a series of disastrous failures?
   I am in two minds about this old chestnut. We like to think that a performer is tough, experienced and has really taken the trouble to learn the trade. The trouble is, I suspect that the phrase is also used as a fig leaf to cover a multitude of cock ups.
   What do you think 'Catters. Can we use this phrase honourably, or is it just sheer cant?

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: stevetheORC
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:59 AM

It sure sounds as if you have paid your and someone elses as well.

Take care

Orc

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 04:59 AM

Good question! It certainly sounds to me like you have more than paid your dues. A hundred years ago, I made the decision that I was NOT going to be a stage performer as a lifetime committment. Obviously I still perform at places and times of my choosing, which is just the way I want. I know longer have to dodge the beer bottles coming at me from the drunken audiences, etc. What amuses me now sometimes, is the occasional comment I'll get from someone who has just heard me for the first time and they say something like: "Jeeze man ... you're really good. Ever thought about doing this for a living?" CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: reggie miles
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 09:16 AM

It's something that we do if we're at all commited to this idea of entertainment for a living. Some have a tougher time than others. I suppose it may be the particular talent you possess and how, where, why and with whom you go about using it. "When", you've choosen to use it may also be important as timing plays such a large factor in this ever changing marketplace. Today the whims of so many can be wrangled and altered so easily with the manipulation of media output sources that can be had by anyone with enough capital to pay the price. What is popular now may be old hat altogether too soon.

Success, in this endeavor, has become increasingly difficult as it has become a game that the very wealthy now play. They gamble their millions trying to create whatever they predict will satisfy the masses. They feed the fads or create their own by manipulating media outlets like TV, radio and now, yes, even this network, as well as production facilities, studios and retail stores hoping to reap the financial rewards of doing so. In doing so they adversely alter or taint the opportunities of many to be heard at all. If you don't possess the stuff that will further their ends you can kiss your chances of any bigtime exposure or success goodbye but if you've got the right financial backers, investors, a good business plan, it's not impossible to make your vision happen. How long you can sustain it depends upon how savvy you are about the market place. Take the new series that's been on the television lately for example. They advertise that they're looking for the next pop star by first traveling throughout the nation, city to city, with an agenda. They have an age bracket that they're shooting for and a look. They get all kinds of hype as they advertise that anyone can audition. They find some talented and trot them before tv cameras and then they use those that they deem less talented to make fun of before the same cameras. All the while this prime-time advertising for the future pop star handlers ensures name recognition for their products.

End of rant! Reggie, it takes money to make it, Miles

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:00 AM

Hi Alan. I'd like to take a stab at answering this, and I'm gonna use Reggie Miles name a couple of times....I haven't asked him if I could, and I really hope he doesn't get pissed. Reggie, if you thing this is libelous (or whatever) I'll ask Joe to remove it.

About six months ago I heard Reggie's album (with his band "Ham Gravy").

I was absolutely blown away. This guy swings better than anyone I've heard in the last five years. The vocals are superb, the tone on the guitars is AMAZING! The material is traditionally based and absolutely jumped out at me. In a nutshell, it was the best album I'd heard all year.

I really did my best to turn as many folks on (in Toronto) to this music as I could through my radio show "Acoustis Workshop", but I kept running into a roadblock. People (a general folkie audience) seemed to 'like' it, but they simply had NO PRIOR REFERENCE to understand why it was so good.

The difference between Reggie Miles' Blues, and the four or five other albums (of similar style) that have actually got some real notice, is probably negligible to your average blues fan....but to me it's huge!

After a few plays I had some problems with the CD skipping (is it a CD Rom?) and stopped playing it as often. I don't think I've put it on in several weeks.

Now I haven't a clue how much money Reggie Miles has to promote his music....I don't know if he's "rich enough to tour". (Yes, you have to HAVE money to tour!) and I don't know if one day I'll receive a professional package at the station, with bio, pictures (for the newspapers) and an even better album (or even the same one with a more serious marketing strategy!)

......In the mean time I look at Mudcat threads like "Are the Be Good Tanyas Over-rated"? Next to Reggie Miles they sure are!

Personally I've been playing and singing professionally for over thirty years. I've been with several excellent record companies, and also done a couple of independant projects. What I do is sort of "half-tradional", "half-original"....that's always been a hard sell at Festivals and clubs......PLUS, I'm nowhere NEAR as ambitious and hard working as a lotta my friends. Downright lazy actually! As long as I keep playing I'll keep paying dues.........but I stopped playing in Pubs for drinkers about 17 years ago.....and that sure helped my nerves!!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:31 AM

Oh dear! I did not intend to touch on any raw nerves when I started this. I can't disagree with a word about media manipulation. Of course you can't get your music in front of a wider audience unless someone has the capital to get you through the radio and TV networks which are effectively ring fenced against those of us who don't have those resources. That's why the Mudcat is such a useful source of contacts for those of us working on a smaller scale.
My question was really meant to be altogether more frivolous. I really meant something along the lines of: Is saying "I've paid my dues man," really just another way of saying,"I've always been a flop up to now?"

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: stevetheORC
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:40 AM

Hi Again
Your only a flop if you think you are a flop, If you can look at your life and say Hey you know I enjoyed some of it iv'e had some good times and iv'e learnt something along the way. Then no your not a flop so dont put yourself down.

THE ORC

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:47 AM

BTW - these "Find a pop star shows" are irrelevant to me. Effectively, the formula and the "music" exist before the show is even launched - along with the marketing and most of the material. Essentially the selected puppet ("The Winner") will conform to the needs of the product. They will sing competently and have the approriate looks. They will be "offered" a record contract which will essentially sign them into slavery for as long as the businessmen believe the current trend will last. The selection process is little different to the way McDonalds chooses regional managers. "The winner" will also be expressly forbidden to interfere with the music (sorry - I meant product) in any way. Be serious Reggie and Rick. You would not consider taking part in this sad, sordid spectacle for a moment. I cheerfully ignore it along with Coca Cola, Big Macs and all the other dirt which my system doesn't need. It doesn't even annoy me any more. Honest. We are in a different game.

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:49 AM

Steve, you slipped in between my posts. I think you are right and that you are talking about what really matters to us.
Another thought Reggie, are you up for an album swap?

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:59 AM

Alan:

Oh yeah, brother, you've paid the dues allright but like so many others, did not get the *membership*, which is another story indeed.

We all should realize that with all the very talented muscians in the world that membership is more of a crap shoot than a given.

I realized this at a very young age so it has saved me a life's worth of dues paying. Plus, I hated the smoke, the clubs, the hassles, etc, etc. and enjoy playing for the sake of music rather than a product.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 11:16 AM

You paid your dues, all right. Everyone's bill is different but you for sure paid yours. It's a damn shame the ticket window wasn't open.

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 12:39 PM

Good question! I'm going to put in some heavy-duty thought on this and try to come up with something cogent, because I want to see if I can answer the question for myself. But for now:-- I think it might be revealing to ask oneself "Just what club is it that I was (am) trying to get into?"

To most of us, I think, the actual nature of the club we have in mind is pretty vague and fuzzy around the edges.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Many good points above; clearly you've paid your dues. The question that rises in my mind - and no disrespect intended, believe me - is "and then what?" I guess it's another way of asking "what club" we expect "membership" in for our dues. What do we expect to come to us as a result of paying our dues? The phrase & concept of course aren't limited to music; they more or less apply to life in general, I think. But still - we pay our dues, and in return we expect: what? Fortune & glory? Respect of our peers? (perhaps, perhaps). Ain't no guarantees anywhere; sadly, it's not even a given that no talent shlubs who don't pay their dues won't wind up on Sunday Street. Maybe paying one's dues is a virtue, an thus its own reward.

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Fortunato
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 03:55 PM

I think 'paying your dues' is another way of saying 'achieving a certain level of competency' as a craftsman who happens to be a musician. In my mind the phrase has little to do with talent or ability. It has to do with the hard work necessary to become proficient at your craft. The 'craft' for folksingers would include booking, publicity, traveling with you instrument and sound equipment. Today it has much to do with recording and CD sales and internet presence.

I've played behind chickenwire, and I've had beer thrown at me and I've shown up to find the venue closed down, been "unbooked" at the whim of club owners and stiffed and all of that. I just don't think bad experiences have to due with paying dues. Bad experiences can give you an indication of how much your really want to continue as a folksinger or musician, or they can remind you pointedly of what your choices really are.

I like to think of the craft levels as apprentice and journeyman and master craftsman and each level has dues to pay. IMHOP. Chance

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: reggie miles
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:07 PM

Rick, no problem, I don't know how to answer your question about cd rom cuz I'm not that savvy about this computer stuff yet but it was burned on my computer. I have had a number of them end up with bad spots. Then someone told me about slowing down the burning speed and that by doing so it could produce fewer errors in the final product. I did, since then, slow it down a by about 1/3 but perhaps I should consider slowing it down even more or maybe just burning in real time and maybe then I'd get fewer bad ones. I'm happy to replace any that do end up bad with new ones and have done so a number of times already this past year. This whole idea of making my own at home is new to me as I've only had the capability to do so since this past year and it's been a slow learning process for me. I'm still seeking knowledge about how to get the best quality from my set up. I'll send another as soon as I get the bugs out. Reg

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 09:52 PM

Jeesus! I got so caught up talking about Reggie, I forgot to mention that I think that Alan is a fine songwriter and performer. I really like his work. As to "dues payin", sometimes (emphasize SOMETIMES) it seems like yer never paid up, and someone with money behind them doesn't have to pay at all.

Enjoy the trip, 'cause there ain't no pot of gold (in folk music).

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 09:58 PM

The paying of dues,generally speaking, goes not so much toward financial or professional success most of the time as it does toward making the music good. Learning the craft is part of it. The "multitude of cock ups" is no less so. If the phrase is not used with pride it can, at the very least, be used with the satisfaction of having done it. "Paying your dues" is the ongoing proccess of life experience.


Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:32 PM

I didn't mean to be terse in the previous post, but I was trying to gedt me thoughts out in a bit of a rush (I had to start getting ready to go to my straight job).

      It's possible that the real question here is, "How do we define success?" Do we use the more accepted measure of financial gain or gauge the quality of the work? Do we absolutely need to separate the two? There are many artists who are doing quite well by both definitions, many who are doing well only by the former, and a vast majority who are doing well primarily by the latter.

    What is the measure? What is the standard? Once you have answered these questions for yourself I think that you will find the answer to your original question, alanabit.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:34 PM

One approach to defining "success," is to define "failure! Good thread. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Mixed Feelings 'Paid My Dues'
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

I'll go along with that Bob. I remember twenty five years ago when I lost my whole folder of original songs. I was worried that someone might throw it into a waste bin. Now I can get worried that someone did not! Fate did me a good turn that night although I didn't realise it at the time!