London peace march

Subject: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:55 PM

LONDON (Reuters) - Close to one million people, from veteran peaceniks to first-time marchers, have packed central London to tell the government and the United States to pull back from war with Iraq in the country's biggest ever peace march. Organisers put the numbers at over 1.5 million in what they said was the biggest political protest march in British history, but police would only confirm a number of 750,000.
"I have never seen anything like this in my political career," London mayor Ken Livingstone said. "This is all Britain standing together regardless of age, race or sex."
"This war is solely about oil. George Bush has never given a damn about human rights," he added.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM

I just watched clips from the demonstration in London on TV - awesome indeed! GO BRITS GO! GO BRITS GO!

:-)    daylia

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST,mexican
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:16 PM

Disgusting ... watching hordes of people who hate us brandishing the Iraq flag. That idiot Jesse Jackson going on about Jesus to a bunch of muslims that want us DEAD, while all the politically correct fools grin and watch the world slide into chaos!

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:17 PM

I've just watched a BBC 4 chat show from New York in which an American woman journalist described Chirac as "Saddam's poodle". She also described the Arab world as a swamp that would be cleaned out.According to her Arabs don't even have chairs and are "savages".
How representative of American journalistic opinion is this woman? In all honesty her opinions delivered with such confidence and brio scared the living daylights out of me.Maybe the only good that will come out of this so sad situation will be the realisation of more British citizens that we are Europeans and always will be Europeans.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:39 PM

Thank you, you British!

Don't worry too much about the inevitable sour grapes Bush-o-philes, Harvey... Most of the people who are supporting Bush are good people deep down, they've just been terribly misled, and they are going to be in denial about it... so we can expect some rather viscious projections from 'em... I guess we'll just have to 'take the piss out of 'em' and let patience take it's course.

The basic problem over here, is that many people are seriously unhappy because their "American Dream" is completely forbidden them. Broken dreams of imaginative yet misinformed people seems to lead to alot of false accusations and cyclone type spin making... It'll blow over, but don't make a martyr out of yourself! All the best, ttr

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:42 PM

I think you could match her in the British tabloids, harvey. And they'd switch round and give precisely the opposite line equal glibly if that was what was required.

Anyway, here's something I posted elsewhere, but the title of this thread means this a better place for it (I was trying to avoid starting an extra thread unless it was absolutely necessary...):

Just back from London. Even the police estimated it as three-quarters of a million, and the organisers estimated 2 million. I don't know how you work out figures when it's this big.

It wasn't a march in a way, more just a huge mass of people that just came pouring on and on, splitting up and taking short cuts all over the place, and filling the whole street. Lots and lots of drum beaters in samba bands with dancers and all.

No hassles at all. Police very colourful in the yellow smocks they wear over their uniforms on occasions like this - and the ones who had to stand still in places like the entrance to Downing Street looked very cold. But no hostility either way - well, you knew that, with 84% of people against any war without UN approval (latest poll), you could assume most of them would have been on our side.

Mostly individual banners and posters rather than organisations, though there were plenty of them. Including a large one saying "Sex Workers of the World", which made a change from "Surrey Against the War", and so forth. Lots of nice nostalgic slogans like "Make Love Not War", and a fair number of "Make Tea not War".

Flags of all nations, it seems, including a fair number of American flags - being carried, noy being burnt. The only burning came when it got so cold some people stared a campfire with it in the park using banner sticks for fuel and sad round. Very cosy.

It got so bloody cold so I drifted off after the speeches were finished - you couldn't really hear them to understand, largely because there was a helicopter hovering directly over the speakers. But as I left I realised the street was still full of people coming in, and that continued as I walked back alongside for best part of a mile.

Came home and switched on the telly - biggest protest match in this country ever, by a long way. But dwarfed by some of the others, notably the ones in Spain and Italy...

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Larkin
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:45 PM

Guest Mexican- What is your problem. I've already seen you slagging Billy Bragg in another post and now the same yank reactionary shit in this one. Wake up to the real world - it's the Us who put saddam there in the first place - no wonder there's a backlash.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM

Hi McGrath:
I guess I am getting a wee bit on in years, I got cold before the end of the day, so Genie and I left a little before the end... check out report from NYC Feb 15th for details of New York Rally,
In solidarity with you all from NY
Larry

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:54 PM

Harvey, I wouldn't say that her opinion would be at all typical of talking heads "on air" opinions. But the bias always seeps through one way or another.

CNN did a piece from Paris on a lovely wee family out on their first venture of protest. The twittery blond American journalist interviewing them, as well as the talking head who introduced the spot, acted as if demonstrators in general were the demons of hell, or at least aliens from another planet not worth of trust by "normal" human beings.

Pathetic, but terribly frightening at the same time, I agree. I also agree with McGrath. Plenty of journalists of other nations are just as guilty of this.

Interestingly, no media channels are reporting that the US government has told the Iraqi journalist who covers the UN to leave the US within 15 days...no one knows why, except that the charge of spying will likely follow, with no proof whatsoever.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST,Cortez The Iraqi
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:00 PM

Just the sort of narrow-mindedness you'd expect from a mexican. I mean how can you take seriously an idiot that wears a stupid hat, a pancho and drinks tequila whilst singing about a lemon being impossible to eat?

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:03 PM

Big, Big crowd in Toronto. This is truly amazing.

Does anyone know about any marches in the rural US?

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST,Lord Kitchener
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:09 PM

Join the army!

Lots of marches guatanteed.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:16 PM

Rick, the best source for reports on demos internationally is through Indy Media. For instance, you can find reports of the Toronto demo here:

http://ontario.indymedia.org/
The coalition's "home page" of sorts, which just means it isn't affiliated with a specific local Indy Media, but provides links to and coverage of select stories from throughout the world, is here:

http://www.indymedia.org/

It usually doesn't take long for pictures of local demos to be posted, but it can take longer for written reports to be posted. The cool thing about the Indy Media sites is ANYONE can post their own reports.

So I expect to see your report within 24 hours on the Toronto site, Comrade Fielding! ;-)

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 08:08 PM

Good on you and your contrymen, McGrath. This is *what* democracy looks like. Now, get warm and get some sleep. Well done, my friend...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 09:35 PM

That's "Conrad" not "Comrade"!

Nah, long ago I decided that quite a few of the Communists and doctrinaire Socialists I knew absolutely refused to read CURRENT literature that might challenge some of their hard held beliefs. Me, I've often come down on the same side as some of them, but I simply don't believe in making my mind up about current issues by using archaic (in my opinion) theories. I'm an improviser .....in music AND life.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 10:56 PM

Portland had 600 demonstrators downtown and people at every bridge and overpass. Not a bad turnout given that the temperature never went over 10.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 11:31 PM

Rick, I posted this in the long "Who's marching" thread, re' rural COlorado:

My sister and I went to the march here and it was terrific, esp. to connect with so many people from so many walks of life, ages, etc. I saw a gentleman in his WWII uniform and heard a speaker who was incarcerated as a conscientious objector during WWII; his ancestor started the Menonites in Switzerland or was it Sweden? Sorry I cannot remember.

There were over 20 rural communities represented with banners signed by thousands of people; those same banners had been carried in marches in Washington, D.C. and San Francisco. I signed one of them. Ridgeway, Telluride, Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Silt, New Castle, Delta, Montrose, Ouray, Norwood, Palisade, Clifton, Grand Junction...and more were represented. Over 400 people marched and drummed; sang and chanted; cried and cheered. We had a cop flash us the peace sign. In Telluride, at an earlier march, the local sheriff joined in.

We heard college students speak, grandmothers and grandfathers, mothers and fathers, veterans of wars and of peace movements, young children, there were babies and toddlers and there was even one organisation called Pets for Peace in which each marcher walked with their dog. One of those dogs had an adorable chest piece with the peace sign on it. The back piece of it said "Make snow not war!"

I took a few pictures and will add a link when I get them up. Thanks so much for the link which let me know this was going on here.

I got cold, hungry, and tired. From my waist down lost feeling because of the chill, BUT it was a GOOD day; my heart is aglow with hope and camaraderie.

Thanks in Peace,

kat

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST,burningtime
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 11:54 PM

Anti-war demonsrations will always win a place in my heart. However, there are some who have chimed in about Bush and the Iraqi oil connection...the Bush family and the U.S. DO NOT have any major oil interests in Iraq...the French and the Germans do...interesting how facts can be distorted and held on an emotional high...the current stance of the possibility of military force on Iraq is based on a gross lack of compliance by Iraq, to offer FULL disclosure of their weapons following the Gulf War...does ANYONE get it? Or is this another "bash the big, bad U.S. and their oil hungry leaders" party?

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:21 AM

Of course the Bush family and the U.S. DO NOT have any major oil interests in Iraq. They just want them.

Bruce

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:52 AM

Report from NYC event Feb 15th

BS: Who's marching on February 15th?

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Kaleea
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:22 PM

So, like, wow, man, if all those regular people don't want, you know, like, uh, war, then, like, howscum the, you know, politicians, like actually want to, like, wage , you know, war? So, like, what exactly is, you know, like, so good about, you know, war? Oh, yeah, I forgot. It's fun to play the "nuke it & pave it game," right? Geez, why don't we let the politicians duke it out. We could even have hollowood film it. It'd be great in the re-runs, not to mention the gazillions to be made in DVD sales. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot, sadsack looks a bit more buff than dubbya does. Oops.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 02:35 PM

I was in London - never got to Hyde Park at all - the great northern invasion landed off the M1 around 12.30. At least 23 buses from Bradford, 22 from York, 9 from huddersfield including mine! We got there and joined the marchers and just couldn't make it to Hyde Park in the time we had. Bailed out for the bus around 4.45pm and went up Oxford Street like salmon up a waterfall - everyone coming the other way. Got home at midnight.

The poster that said 'Frodo has failed' was one of the best I saw.

The noise was amazing - don't suppose we'll ever see that number on the streets again. Wouldn't mind a special programme later to see it from a distance and hear the speakers.

We might live in a democracy, but what's the point in marching if no-one is prepared to listen? That's NOT democracy in my opinion. I want our MPs to find an alternative to the fait accompli they are trying to Bush sorry bullshit us with.

And unfortunately for the Labour government, THIS is what they are going to go down in history for. Smoking gun? Hole in the foot.

Cheers
Sarah

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: leprechaun
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 02:54 PM

Who says the politicians want war? I carry a gun almost everywhere I go, but I hope I don't have to use it.

If I were Saddam, and I saw all this, I would certainly feel like I could get away with whatever I wanted to do. I think Saddam should feel real safe building nukes and handing them out to suicide bombers. With all these millions protecting him, he must feel like quite the hero.

Fortunately, there was no news coverage whatsoever about these alleged "peace marches" in any of the major new outlets. I haven't bothered to access the "indy" media, so I haven't seen anything about it. Frankly, I don't believe any of these alleged marches or rallys really took place.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 02:58 PM

130,000 in Dublin, report at IndyMedia Ireland here:

Indy Media Ireland

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 03:54 PM

a good piece on the peace march

I wasn't there, quite, this time. Was later than intended for various reasons. We got lost after turning towards Vauxhall at MI5 and ending up going upriver. Did eventually see people coming away at Victoria, and hooted at them, got tangled up in coaches making for their pick up points, and came away. Since there were people in the park still when I watched the news, much later, I wish I'd stayed.

There are other good bits on the Observer site, too

Penny

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST,alex
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:13 PM

Sorry leprachaun. the london march did take place, and the thing is, there was everyone there, kids, middle aged, old codgers who probably last marched at Aldermaston, god people, athiests, black, white, yellow, poor, rich, you name it, I bet I saw them. All with the same thoughts; no war. There were a lot of "side issues" like human rights, UN resolutions that wern`t being observed in Palestine, South Africa etc. I was proud to be there and hope that Bush and Blair will take note.
With so many people having the "right" view, Iam sure sense will prevail

Alex

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:52 PM

If I were Saddam, and I saw all this, I would certainly feel like I could get away with whatever I wanted to do

You would be a fool. I don't think there are many peace protesters who like Saddam one little bit any more than I belive you will find many who believe Iraq should not be forced to get rid of any WMD it may have.

I hate war but I am not a pacifist in that I believe there can be occasions where war is the only option available. I, like many others, can see no reason for a war now. The progress of the inspectors is slower than one would hope for but while progress is being made, the inspectors should be allowed to continue. There has been no plausable case to support ideas that Iraq pose an immediate threat.

Perhaps the biggest fear to me is that the US and the UK will go to war without the support of the UN. If this happens, you may as well forget about the UN in the future. It will have been damaged beyond repair. America will be seen to have set a new standard, an example that may be followed elsewhere and possibly by other countries.

To go to war without clear justification will also have a devastating effect in terms of the views of our countries by outsiders. At a minimum, terrorist activities will increase. At worst, it will spark off something more terrible than anything the 20th century ever witnessed.

Jon

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 05:55 PM

Watch out, leprechuan, ya might fall off the edge of the flat earth, too.:-)

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM

328 rocket boosters were found by Blix, all imported after UN sanctions were imposed limiting missile range to 150kms. No credible evidence has been presented to prove Iraq has destroyed any of its nerve gas and anthrax spores. One missile sent into Israel will change the face of history, and cause a war that will destroy western economy and de-stabilise the entire middle east. congratulations peacnics.... great work.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: leprechaun
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 06:36 PM

Perhaps my sarcasm is a little obscure sometimes. I've been reading for weeks in this very forum that there will be no news coverage of the protests, the media is bought and paid for by huge global conglomerates of evil corporates murderers, and the protesters are going to be spirited out of their homes in the middle of the night and placed in concentration camps or worse and and blah blah blah. I'm not seeing all this oppression everybody's whining about. Most of what I see from the media and the Hollywood elite is rabidly anti-war. That's OK, I'm anti-war, too. I just don't think it's wise to let the world know that we're unwilling to use force, ever, for anything.

I also think it shows Saddam and any other actual despot (not the fantasy despot most of you so desperately would like to believe George W. Bush is) that we in the free world don't have the WILL to oppose them. In this forum I've seen very little obloquy against Saddam Hussein that even comes close to the invective heaped on George W. Bush. You'd think with all you dissenters being locked up in dank and dismal cells in the bowels of some secret CIA prison, maybe that would slow down a bit.

But here you brave souls are, risking the wrath of your evil government's jack-booted thugs with every post.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 06:51 PM

"In this forum I've seen very little obloquy against Saddam Hussein that even comes close to the invective heaped on George W. Bush."

Perhaps that's because it's Bush's policies which pose the most immediate threat to all the residents of North America?

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 07:34 PM

Ya said it sweetly, and I heard it
Leprechaun said he preferred it
But ours is the danger made
When we threaten with weapons grade

Our bully tactics risk detatchment
Of respectful things and better penchants
Its not by force we'll peace mid east
Back together... ask your priest

Take the dough we spend for killing
And help those people, their God willing
And don't forget the poorest here
Are hoping... hungry for good cheer

Priorities are Bush's failing
His bottom line has costs a sailing
As postures o plenty are fine on the stage
When strutting kills people it causes real rage... ttr

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 07:54 PM

(Please remember GUESTS-without-a-handle, whatever points you may raise are unlikely to be responded to by people who have decided not to encourage that way of posting. As I have, and a lot of other people have.)

If there were people posting stuff about how Saddam being a good leader, and his policies being just what was needed, I don't think it'd be long before you'd be hearing the other side of it, and the people who'd probably be most vocal and knowledgeable about that would be people who've detested him from day one, and all through the years when he was the darling of the USA government.

I was looking at the coverage of the Dublin march, which is archived, because that's the way RTE does things (unfortunately the BBC doesn't), and there are a couple of Iraqi exile marchers on there explaining how they loathe Saddam - but that doesn't mean they want this war devastating their country.

One thing that the marches might do is reduce the possibility of some mad suicide type attack by Saddam's regime. (You can always stretch the range of a rocket if you reduce the payload sufficiently.)If there is absolutely no possibility of escaping an overwhelming assault by the USA that kind of thing is far more plausible than it is if there is a real chance of escape by cooperating with the inspectors.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 08:06 PM

The point made was that they were purchased after the UN imposed restrictions on Iraq. Saddam has deployed missile launchers and troops (presently digging in and consolidating positions) around the Northern "No Fly Zone"; Turkey is a NATO member and threatened by Iraq. Germany France and Russia buy most of their oil from Iraq has vetoed any action against Saddam. Therefore, NATO is Split, the UN is Split (and in its usual state of lets debate and impose more sanctions) Saddam is laughing at the UN and USA. Exactly what El Queda wants a very destabilized UN and NATO, with a weakened western economy.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM

(Please remember GUESTS-without-a-handle, whatever points you may raise are unlikely to be responded to by people who have decided not to encourage that way of posting. As I have, and a lot of other people have.)

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 08:35 PM

McGrath, Your stance against Guests in this thread is disingenuous. Ignore Guest posts (with or without a handle) by all means but please don't create an oppertunity to start another member vs Guest situation.

If you really do feel you have a case on this one, lobby Max, not the forum. It would take all of 2 minutes to write a line like "If "from" is not completed - reject post".

I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs but assuming that as policy allows, to post without a name at the top, it is considered acceptable by management.

Jon (with apologies for continuing the drift)

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 10:44 PM

"Peace is generally good in itself, but it is never the highest good unless it comes as the handmaiden of righteousness; and it becomes a very evil thing if it serves merely as a mask for cowardice and sloth, or as an instrument to further the ends of despotism or anarchy."
T. Roosevelt

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 11:16 PM

leprechuan, I think the majority of the extreme paranoidism you've been reading on here has been posted by a GUEST, one which it is pretty obvious to recognise. Certainly, many of us are concerned at the erosion of our rights, but that is our duty as patriotic Americans, surely!

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: IanC
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:28 AM

Here's something to think about.

15-20 years ago, I was actively campaigning against the UK and USA selling arms to a nasty Iraqi dictator called ... you guessed it ... Saddam Hussain.

Now if I oppose a war in the Middle East, the long term consequences of hich are likely to be WWIII, I'm Saddam's "poodle".

Just who's being consistent round here? Me, or the people who were selling the stuff to Saddam?

:-)

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:49 PM

Guest 10:44, it is quite disingenous to suggest that those who do not support the rush to war, are deluded.

As many world leaders have pointed out, while there is a need to keep the pressure on Saddam Hussein to account for the materials his government has not yet accounted for which could be used to produce weapons of mass destruction, there is no credible evidence whatsoever that Saddam Hussein is an immediate threat to any one. He is being successfully contained militarily by the US & UK military presence in the region, as well as by neighboring countries, and particularly by the military capabilities of the Israeli armed forces.

There is no credible argument one can make for the US & UK to invade Iraq in the coming months.

Because many world leaders, including many American military and diplomatic leaders, disagree with the Bush/Blair strategy, doesn't make them idiots, any more than it makes the global demonstrators who agree with the assessment I have given above, idiots.

Your argument, Guest 10:44, really isn't credible if at it's center, your claim is "those who disagree with my assessment are wrong because they disagree with my assessment."

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:02 PM

The point I was making, jon, was that in a discussion thread, if people have a point to make that they'd like to see others responding to, posting as an anonynous GUEST is self defeating. Rather the same way that it's probably better not to write the post in Sanskrit.

I wasn't trying to srtart a discussion aboutb te rights and wrongs of anonymouse posting as such.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:03 PM

Link to the Mirror's gallery of photos from the London March

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

McGrath says:

"I wasn't trying to srtart a discussion aboutb te rights and wrongs of anonymouse posting as such."

Then why do keep raising the issue in threads where it clearly is a disingenuous thing to do, like this one? In anonymous posting isn't an issue, why keep trying to make it one? You are pulling a Bush here, McGrath. Saying one thing, while doing another.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:31 PM

The point I was making, jon, was that in a discussion thread, if people have a point to make that they'd like to see others responding to, posting as an anonynous GUEST is self defeating. Rather the same way that it's probably better not to write the post in Sanskrit.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:33 PM

That is bullshit and you know it, McGrath. With the exception of a handful of Mudcatters like you, most everyone here takes each message at face value, regardless of who posts it. That is as it should be. We should be responding to ideas expressed, not to villify a person.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM

Excuse me, my above message should have ended with: "...not to villify a person for whether they fill in the from blank, or decide to use the anonymous default setting the system allows."

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 07:38 PM

Here are some pictures I took on the London March on Saturday

(And, to noone in particular, pointing out that a poster-without-a-handle is, by virtue of that, likely not to get too many replies, is not in any way to vilify them. It's just being helpful.)

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 11:03 AM

That link won't work - this should - London February 15 - I took lots more pictures, but I picked out to put up here a few that seemed more Mudcat relevant - ones with American marchers or flags, and ones with music being played.

Subject: RE: London peace march
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 11:14 AM

I thought there were more that 1.5 million people in All Briton.

Here is an interesting link: about Englishmen

Old Guy