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BS: Millions Marching for Peace!

GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 12:40 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM
KarlMarx 16 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM
GUEST 16 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM
KarlMarx 16 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 12:42 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 12:45 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 12:54 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 01:14 PM
Charley Noble 17 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Old guy 17 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 01:42 PM
brid widder 17 Feb 03 - 01:50 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 01:54 PM
Melani 17 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 17 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 03:58 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM
KarlMarx 17 Feb 03 - 04:13 PM
Richie 17 Feb 03 - 04:23 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 04:29 PM
boglion 17 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM
Richie 17 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Old guy 17 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM
Richie 17 Feb 03 - 06:19 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 06:33 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 17 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 08:43 PM
NicoleC 17 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 08:59 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 17 Feb 03 - 09:24 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 09:34 PM
NicoleC 17 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,Old guy 17 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 10:43 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 03 - 11:30 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 03 - 01:04 AM
GUEST 18 Feb 03 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Melani 18 Feb 03 - 02:48 PM
GUEST 18 Feb 03 - 02:54 PM
Oldguy 19 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,petr 19 Feb 03 - 04:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 04:32 PM
Oldguy 19 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 05:17 PM
Oldguy 19 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 06:54 PM
NicoleC 19 Feb 03 - 07:03 PM
Gareth 19 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 03 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,petr 19 Feb 03 - 09:21 PM
Cluin 19 Feb 03 - 11:00 PM
DougR 20 Feb 03 - 01:38 AM
NicoleC 20 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM
Troll 20 Feb 03 - 02:00 AM
NicoleC 20 Feb 03 - 10:30 AM
DougR 20 Feb 03 - 12:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 02:02 PM
DougR 20 Feb 03 - 02:07 PM
NicoleC 20 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 02:23 PM
Troll 20 Feb 03 - 02:47 PM
MMario 20 Feb 03 - 02:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 03:10 PM
Troll 20 Feb 03 - 03:11 PM
MMario 20 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM
Troll 20 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Feb 03 - 03:47 PM
MMario 20 Feb 03 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 20 Feb 03 - 07:24 PM
NicoleC 20 Feb 03 - 08:38 PM
Alice 20 Feb 03 - 08:49 PM
GUEST 21 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM
NicoleC 21 Feb 03 - 12:11 PM
Donuel 21 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,old guy 21 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 21 Feb 03 - 06:16 PM
NicoleC 21 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 22 Feb 03 - 12:24 AM
TIA 22 Feb 03 - 12:55 AM
Troll 22 Feb 03 - 01:16 AM
GUEST,oldguy 22 Feb 03 - 01:26 AM
NicoleC 22 Feb 03 - 02:27 AM
annamill 22 Feb 03 - 02:37 AM
TIA 22 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 22 Feb 03 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,OldGuy 22 Feb 03 - 01:24 PM
TIA 22 Feb 03 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 22 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Feb 03 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Oldguy 22 Feb 03 - 11:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 03 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,Oldguy 24 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM
tar_heel 24 Feb 03 - 04:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 03 - 04:17 PM
Don Firth 24 Feb 03 - 04:30 PM
Bobert 24 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM
TIA 24 Feb 03 - 05:30 PM
Joe Offer 16 Mar 03 - 09:28 PM
Bobert 16 Mar 03 - 09:46 PM
Troll 16 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM
DougR 17 Mar 03 - 03:18 AM
Joe Offer 10 Aug 03 - 09:47 PM
Bobert 10 Aug 03 - 11:15 PM
Don Firth 11 Aug 03 - 02:52 PM
michaelr 11 Aug 03 - 07:29 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 11 Aug 03 - 10:01 PM
Bobert 11 Aug 03 - 11:29 PM
Rustic Rebel 12 Aug 03 - 10:57 PM
Bobert 12 Aug 03 - 11:26 PM
GUEST 13 Aug 03 - 01:00 PM
DougR 13 Aug 03 - 05:08 PM
ard mhacha 14 Aug 03 - 04:26 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 15 Aug 03 - 06:22 AM

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Subject: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:40 PM

Isn't this just exciting? I'd like to hear people's comments on how it felt to be part of such a thrilling, historic, global event that held tremendous meaning for people everywhere in the world.

For me, a long time activist, it was more exhilirating than anything I've ever experienced before. As serious as the issues of war and peace are, there seemed to be a giddiness too. That no matter how the warmongers spin this, they ain't gonna be able to sell the war to us anymore.

The most heartening remarks I heard through the media (though they didn't know they were doing it, I'm sure) was that people weren't demonstrating only against this particular war. They were demonstrating so their feelings and thoughts would be known, ie that they were morally opposed to the use of war and militarism to further the interests of empire. Over and over again, especially from Europe, I heard people say they thought this war was about the Bush administration's efforts to use war to expand the US empire.

Thanks to all who marched for peace. I hope we can keep the momentum going!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

*please* read the lead story in today's Observer. A fine piece of writing.
http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,896511,00.html


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM

It's ironic, though. A little less than a century ago, on the eve of another war, the crowds were out in force - in London, in Paris, in Vienna, in Berlin, in St. Petersburg - all clamoring for a showdown with the most dangerous enemy of their own respective governments. Each government - British, French, German, Austrian, and Russian - in turn, all whipped up the pro-war sentiments, until it became impossible to stem the rush to conflict. Four years later - with ten million dead - many of those same people, who had sent their sons, brothers and husbands off to kill and be killed, saw the foolishness of those heady days in July and August, 1914. Maybe people do learn the lessons of history . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM

Thanks, other guest, for that link. Exactly what I was talking about.

Perhaps we are witnesses to the birth of a grassroots global democracy movement. People are very concerned that our voices are being heard just fine--and ignored by those in elected offices in the Western democracies.

"We have frequently printed the word DEMOCRACY. Yet I cannot too often repeat that it is a word the real gist of which still sleeps, quite unawaken'd, notwithstanding the resonance and the many angry tempests out of which its syllables have come, from pen or tongue. It is a great word, whose history, I suppose, remains unwritten, because that history has yet to be enacted."

                                     --Walt Whitman


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 16 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM

I wouldn't be too enamored by democracy, though. I'm heartened by the anti-war demonstrations in Europe, Asia, Australia and North America, but as I stated before, the whims of the masses can change. Before September 11, 2001, Boy George, perceived to be number than a pounded thumb, was well on his way to becoming a one-termer like his old man. Afterwards, you would have thought he was the second-coming. Did he become smarter? No . . . But the American public became stupider . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:42 PM

Of course the whims of the masses change, just as the whims of political leaders do. However, that is no reason for the world's leaders to disregard widespread, global public opinion being simultaneously expressed by millions of people. The global demonstrations this weekend are historically unprecedented, and if I were a world leader, I would certainly be taking heed of this newfound ability of dissenters around the world to make their voices heard, despite the world's media conglomerates doing all in their power to either ignore or demonize them as terrorist sympathizers (or worse).

Please see my post here:

George Mitchell's remarks on global demonstrations


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:45 PM

Yes, but Boy George is ignoring the marchers, because he "knows" that Jesus is on his side, and that's all that counts, in his twisted little mind . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 12:54 PM

I think you are wrong, Gojira. I really do. I don't think the Bush administration is ignoring the global demonstrations, any more than I think the Bush administration is ignoring the world leaders who disagree with the US assessment of Saddam Hussein as a current military threat, particularly when they are having so many difficulties bringing the world community around to their position.

The EU, NATO, the Arab League, the UN Security Council--the Bush administration certainly cannot afford to ignore the opposing views of all of them. That would be disastrous for other items on the Bush/Cheney agenda, particularly cooperation of foreign governments on intelligence matters in the Bush administration's global war on terrorism, and in allowing the US military to use bases in the Middle East in countries like Kuwait, Bahrain, and Turkey.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM

Oh, really? Definition - Ignore: "To refuse to pay attention to; disregard." (American Heritage Dictionary) "Disregard" is the operative word. The only reason that the conventional war hasn't started already is because, even though the Pentagon says that they could invade Iraq today, they still have much more equipment en route, and some still on the docks here in the US, that will all eventually be deployed for the invasion, and more tellingly, for the occupation. The Pentagon says it would prefer to have all of its equipment and forces in place before launching the attack, so this delay caused by the flap in the UN actually works out for Boy George and his Pentagon handlers. Then there is the matter of the special forces that are already in Iraq, scouting the oil fields, and preparing to "paint targets" for the air campaign. Sorry, the anti-war demonstrators, unfortunately, are all urinating into the wind . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:14 PM

US and British military forces, including special forces, have been on the ground and in the air in Iraq for over 12 years now. This is not a new war we are talking about. This war against Iraq, which the US an UK administrations now wish to escalate by invading and occupying the country, has been on-going since the first Gulf War. Our forces occupying the northern and southern "no-fly zones", and the special forces, CIA, SAS, etc. that have been actively involved in Iraq since the early 1990s, have been the military presence that has kept Hussein in check.

Voicing dissenting opinions is never "pissing into the wind". In a democracy, it is known as participation in the public debate over policy issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:19 PM

And from some of my old friends from Down Under:

"Our participation in Sydney's anti-war demonstration yesterday was the
first thing that has given me some hope. Over 250,000 people marched in Sydney including Jane, Tim, Hannah, me and Barbara. In some Australian cities 1 out of 10 people in the city marched. Of course, our Prime Minister rejected the whole thing not truly representing Australian public opinion, but it was clear that he was wrong. The full demographics were represented.

It is simply amazing to think that a global anti-war event took placebefore the war started. Barbara went down to the American consulate today to turn in some form that was required and found it closed.It is Presidents Day. What a wonderful present to give to Bush for President's Day, hell, I didn't know there was such a day.

The police were totally unprepared for the size of the crowd and Sydney does not have the space for it.The trains were not even running on some lines (down for repairs) so thousands likely did not make it into the city. The mood was excellent, there was no anti-American feelings expressed, only an irritation with the axis of evil (Bush, Blair, Howard).There were many funny and cleaver signs, I should have made a list."

March on,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM

When dealing with psychotic personalities (Kurt Vonnegut's term) like Boy George, you are wasting your time. This is all but one more reason why I became an anarchist many years ago. I find all of this talk of democracy to be every bit as tiresome as the prospect of autocratic solutions - and all other forms of government in between . . .
   And as far as the special forces having been there for two dozen years, so what? They have a new mission, now. All the marching in the world isn't going to change their mission, and what they're preparing to do . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Old guy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:29 PM

How many people marched?

How does the number compare with the number of civilians killed by Saddam Hussein?

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:42 PM

What's your point, Old Guy?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: brid widder
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:50 PM

I took part in the London march on Saturday.... along with millions more. I've never been on any sort of march before I was a demo virgin!!! I think every estimate is of how many took part is an underestimate!! We were on the Gower Street branch... the walk along Gower street itself took 2 hours ... before we reached the official start! we started at 12:30 & reached Hyde park at 6:00 ... well after all the speeches had finished there were many more after us.

I think you are probably right Go jira... we will probably not change the tide of events... but I needed to say it on saturday... along with millions more across the worrl... that this is NOT IN MY NAME!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:54 PM

And Brid, remember that those who marched aren't the only people who are opposed to this war. How many millions more around the world share the views and opinions being expressed in the global demonstrations in 600 cities over the weekend?

I think it is ridiculous to think that these demonstrations aren't going to have an effect in the halls of power around the globe. And not just on the issue of war against Iraq. The global left has shown that it can mobilize a concerted worldwide protest in a matter of weeks, thanks to the Internet. You better believe our marching is having an effect!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Melani
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

We were with 200,000 or so in San Francisco yesterday. My husband pointed out that the crowd equaled about one-third of the city's population, though of course many of them came from neighboring cities.The weather was great and so were the people, barring a few anarchist idiots who got violent and nasty at the end of the day. Even the police described it that way.

There was a sign at the interfaith service that said "The last time we listened to a bush, we wandered in the desert for 40 years," and later another that said "A village in Texas is missing its idiot." There were a lot of incredibly creative forms of protest, and the SF Chronicle described it as having the atmosphere of a gigantic block party.

The high point of my day was joining the San Francisco Islamic Society as an honorary member, so Ashcroft can put my name on a list too. The American Friends Service Committee was passing out honorary membership forms. If they're gonna mess with my civil liberties, I might as well mess with their heads. I am, by the way, not a Muslim.

Old Guy, I am quite sure nobody would miss Saddam for one minute, especially not me. If the UN decides to go after him in an allied effort, I will cheer them all the way to the front. But I am not in favor of Bush doing it unilaterally--it sets a really bad precedent. "Hey, we don't like your government--we're gonna declare war on you!" How many people around the world would like to do that to us? I'd love to get rid of Bush, too, but I really prefer to do that within the legal limits of our Constitution, not by having, say, North Korea drop a nuke on Washington. The UN is as close as we've got to a world government, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that we must take our neighbors on the planet into consideration. We are not isolated any more in this century; everything we do affects other nations.

The thing that concerns me most, as I have said before, is that Bush seems to be using the war as an excuse to totally decimate civil liberties and give the country to big business interests. If I'm not mistaken, the current provisions of the Homeland Security Act make it possible for me to be taken away for signing that membership form yesterday, though frankly, I don't expect that to happen. The object of the exercise, of course, is to show how absurd it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 01:58 PM

You know, brid widder, I'm not quite as cynical as I may appear - almost, but not quite. I used to belong to ACT-UP, and we frequently pilloried the powers-that-be over their inaction concerning the AIDS epidemic. The AIDS epidemic has only gotten worse, not better, though . . .      
   Don't get me wrong: as an anarchist, I'm certainly going to support people like yourself demonstrating against the same powers-that-be who wish to kill and destroy in our names, as you put it so well. But . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:53 PM

Melani:
"I am quite sure nobody would miss Saddam for one minute, especially not me. If the UN decides to go after him in an allied effort, I will cheer them all the way to the front. But I am not in favor of Bush doing it unilaterally--it sets a really bad precedent. "Hey, we don't like your government--we're gonna declare war on you!" How many people around the world would like to do that to us?"

A. The UN did decide to go after him but Saddam always manages to stall them. Now he is using the anti war protestors to his advantage.

B: There are several european nations in an alliance with the US and the UK. The dissenting nations are in the minority.

C: The Islamic extremists declared war on the US.

Now what do we do?

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM

"C: The Islamic extremists declared war on the US.

Now what do we do?"

Change our foreign policy. Work multilaterally and diplomatically to disarm all the nations of the world, including ourselves, by honoring the anti-WMD treaties we signed and under the Bush administration, have abrogated unilaterally.

God, there are so many things we could do...

The idea that Saddam is going to be successful in "using" the anti-war protestors is laughable. Only right wing Limbaugh and O'Reilly conspiracy nuts are buying that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 03:58 PM

The problem with atavistic right-wingers is that they think that anyone who hates the United States is "extremist." Obviously, no one should have any antipathy against this wonderful nation, a nation that has never met a right-wing regime that it didn't like . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM

No, the problem with atavistic right-wingers is that they successfully use the media to great effect with the working class people who buy labels, be it on blue jeans, or politics. And they have been very successful in demonizing and labelling anyone who disagrees with the ultra-right agenda, as extremists, terrorist sympathizers, or worse. What the mainstream US media is doing right now to poison the relationships between the US and Europe, just as one for instance, is treasonous and very much against the best interests of the US government and it's people.

It is the right wing Republicans in power right now who are the radical extremists, and their hate is what is wearing out the social fabric in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: KarlMarx
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:13 PM

I can't argue with any of that, Guest! Well said . . . Except that, most right-wingers, including their titular head, have no idea what the term "atavistic" means . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:23 PM

Millions march for peace, hundreds of millions stay home.

-Richie


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 04:29 PM

Are you suggesting Richie, that getting six or so million people in the streets in a coordinated effort over a 48 hour period to make a statement on a single issue, is meaningless and pointless?

If so, why bother with democracy at all, if the attitude you think we all should embrace is a disempowered "who gives a shit"?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: boglion
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

The real test of world opinion would be a SECRET vote of the Security Council. This would avoid all the bullying and bribery.

And yes, I was in Gower Street and it took me five hours to reach Hyde Park. A gret day but nothing will stop the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:29 PM

No Guest,

I was saying that there are equally as many people who have a different opinion. And they are largely being ignored.

These are free countries not like Iraq, where thank God we can express our opinions.

-Richie


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM

Richie, the opinions of those who support this war is all we have been hearing for months on the US air waves.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Old guy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM

Guest:

"Change our foreign policy."

That sound constructive but what do we change it to?

"Work multilaterally and diplomatically to disarm all the nations of the world"

I did not see any other countries make an attempt but the US worked diplomatically with North Korea. We made a deal to give them aid if they would stop nuclear development. They used our aid while they were developing nuclear weapons and selling missiles to other countries in the Middle East. They could be selling nuclear weapons to terrorist groups or rogue nations in the near future if they have not already done so. A sterling example of how diplomacy does not work with dictators.

"including ourselves"

I would like to think that the superpowers in the world have some WMDs in case one of them decides to take control of one or more of the others. I would not like to see WMDs in the hands of smaller countries that would use them for blackmail. Who is going to destroy the last one? I don't think Utopia will ever exist.

"by honoring the anti-WMD treaties we signed and under the Bush administration, have abrogated unilaterally"
Inform us of these treaties, I am not aware of them, only the North Korean treaty, put forth by the US and violated by NK. This is another case of making America the villain when the situation is the reverse.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:19 PM

Guest,

I don't think you are hearing the opinions of the average guy in Smallville USA. What do they belive and why?

You are hearing about the protestors.

You are hearing what the Bush Adminstration is doing and saying.

There is a difference.

-Richie


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:33 PM

Gojira:

My point is that anti war protestors are busy totaling up how many people marched but they are not concerned with how many innocent people have died at the hands of dictators.

If a million marched and maybe there were a thousand deaths by dictatorships I would say the marchers have a point. If 10 million people have died under dictatorships and 1 million people marched I would say they were not concerned.

I would also like to see the total number of marchers compared to the world population.

Maybe of 1/4 of the world's population were able to march and be counted I would reconsider my conclusion that vast the majority of the world is not anti war.

Again I have answered your question but you are unable to answer mine.

Do you think the majority of the world is anti war?

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 06:56 PM

No Old Guy: It is not a case of being unable to answer your insipid questions, it's more of a matter of finding your positions - if that is what they can be called - to be irrelevant . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM

Duest;

You ask questions and I answer them. I ask questions and you don't answer them.

Tell me what is relevant or is that question insipid? Give an example of a non insipid question. Maybe I can learn to ask better questions.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:43 PM

"I was saying that there are equally as many people who have a different opinion. And they are largely being ignored."

They are being ignored because the right wing can't organize themselves and get six million plus people in the streets to state their case. Why? Because they don't have to--they already control the government, the business sector, the media, and international relations.

Just as soon as you war mongerers get six million of your supporters around the world in the streets in a single weekend to further your cause, I'll be happy to listen to what you have to say. Until then, I'll ignore you.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:55 PM

Just out of curosity, can we see a show of hands of how many Americans believe Saddam's government is a fundamentalist one? That many, huh? Brrrrrttt! Wrong answer.

Okay, next question. Name the religious affiliations of the two other major political factions in Iraq that are candidates to control an post-Saddam Iraqi government? Anyone want to guess?

Old Guy, the exact number of marchers is not the exact number of dissenters. I couldn't make it, for example, though I wanted to. In US politics, the general rule of thumb for politicians is that one phone call opinion equals 100 votes. So how many votes does a person who gets in a car and drives a few hundred miles to stand in the freezing rain count for?

I think you will find that most of the longtime activists are far more aware of Saddam's history than those who march lockstep with the Bush administration. After all, we're the same activists who vigorously protested when the US was supplying him with biological and chemical weapons and propping up his government despite his crimes in the 80's. We were generally reviled for being "bleeding heart liberals" because we didn't support our ally Saddam and his war against then-number-one-enemy Iran. He was the US's darling right up until he overstepped his bounds and invaded Kuwait. Ironically, those same old US-aided crimes are now being trotted out as evidence against him.

I might ask where was this deep concern that Rumsfeld and Cheney have for the poor Kurds in the late 80's, when they were aiding and abetting Saddam? Where was the concern about Saddam's brutality to civilians from the right wing hawks then? Answer: it was nowhere to be found.

And it's not found now, either. Because there's no concern for civilian lives when the Pentagon war plan includes dropping 800 bombs in the first 48 hours, many over Baghdad. That's one every 4 minutes. Shall we run a pool for the average number of children killed with each bomb?

Slaughtering the populace is a damn poor way to "liberate" them.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 08:59 PM

You go girlfriend.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 09:24 PM

NicoleC:

Ok. Total up the number of marchers and multiply by 100 and compare that to the world population and tell me the ratio. I want to know.

Now tell me what kind of bombs are going to be dropped and where. If they are the wrong types of bombs and if they are going to be dropped in the wrong places I think it is wrong.

Now tell me how you would feel If you were brutally raped in front of your husband and children and then your children were tortured in front of you and your husband. If you lived through that, would you be willing to dodge some bombs that were aimed at the people who did the raping and torturing?

In Iraq, at the very least, they cut your tongue out if you say anything against the government. No trial, no report to file. Here you get airtime.

Where would you prefer to live?

I would rather live here in the US and I can even tolerate the antiwar protestors even though they can't tolerate those who think differently.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 09:34 PM

Old Guy, you are just trying to bait your opponents with this sensationalist crap. The issue of invading and occupying Iraq has nothing to do with liberating Iraqis or with protecting Iraqi women from being raped. What a crock of shit you are attempting to unload.

This war is, according to it's promoters, to prevent proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. That is what weapons inspections are about, that is what the UN resolutions going back to the Gulf War are about, and that makes your stupid "liberation and protection of Iraqi women" argument about as sincerely disingenuous as the suggestion that the US military invasion of Afghanistan was about liberating Afghan women from the Taliban.

And another thing--your god damn "America: love it or leave it" arguments are a load of shit, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:04 PM

Old Guy, you're new around here so you don't know me or my posts. It is absolutely untrue to say of me -- or of most antiwar protestors -- that we don't "tolerate" those who think differently. I am always happy to discuss and debate political positions with those who speak from knowledge and have reasoned arguments. I don't, however, have much tolerance for those who parrot propaganda and rumor and call it fact, or those who simply hold to opinions without chasing down fact. Making claims like, "The Islamic extremists declared war on the US" is utterly irrelevant to any discussion of Iraq, since Iraq's government is a secular one.

And saying, "My point is that anti war protestors are busy totaling up how many people marched but they are not concerned with how many innocent people have died at the hands of dictators" is not only outrageously untrue, but it seems to show an ignorance of what many anti-war protesters have been fighting for for decades. Some of us have been paying attention all along, not just when the latest bonehead gets into the White House and tells us what to pay attention to.

And when some idiot gets on Fox News in prime time and calls a peaceful demonstration of first amendment rights "a bunch of damn communists," it's just another ignorant idiot as far as I'm concerned. As Kevin said so eloquently a couple of weeks ago, the attitude seems to be, "Be thankful you live in a country with free speech. Now shut up!"

Yes, I have been the victim of a heinous crime. The police even stood and watched it happen. No, I would not want those people bombed or tortured, whether I was there or not, because it would do nothing to make the crime go away. I would not choose to hurt them myself; I would definatley not choose to ask some to do so for me; but most of all I would be angered if someone else decided they were going to pursue "justice" by killing me and the criminals in question.

Replacing Saddam with a different but equally brutal dictator would not do anything to make the lives of Iraqi's better. Instead, in the meantime it will make it much worse. The Bush administration may talk all it wants to about how there will be a democracy afterwards, but the history of the US when we go on these sort of "liberation" missions tends to indicate that's we'll set up another dictatorship or else abandon the country to a long and bloody civil war -- and the demographics of Iraq virtually guarentee it.

Shall we "liberate" the Iraqi people while helping our ally Saudi Arabia, where the oppression under a fundamentalists government is much, much worse? The Taliban was our ally, too, up until almost two years ago, when they had the bad luck to have a misbehaving guest. Israel systematically engages in ethnic-based oppression, and we KNOW they have several sorts of WMD's and are also willing to engage in pre-emptive aggressive warfare. Are we "liberating" their neighbors because Israel might do it again?

You seem to be fond of asking others exaggerated questions. So tell me -- if Russia decided it was for our own good to remove President from power, and your children were hungry and dying of dysentary because all the water treatment plants were deliberately destroyed to "weaken" Bush's infrastructure, would you feel "liberated?" And if you are your wife were suffering from cancer because of the depleted uranium in the bombs they dropped that levelled your home, and even basic medication and painkillers were unavailable due to sanctions, would you welcome the Russian forces?

Would you really think they had your best interests at heart?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Old guy
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:25 PM

Guest:

I am not offended by your response. The statements about what goes on in Iraq I believe are true. The anti war protestors do not want to face the facts.

I like it here in America. I find very little to complain about. I can state my opinions openly. If you don't like the government here, vote to change it.
I fail to see what can be gained by hurling personal insults and using bad language.

I believe the women in Afghanistan have been liberated from the Taliban.

I saw a video tape on TV taken secretly of an execution in the Olympic soccer field in Kabul. A woman was accused of adultery. She was made to kneel down and she was shot in the head by one of those guys with the black turban.

I heard other televised reports of amputations of hands and feet in the same stadium. People accused of petty crimes had hands or feet chopped off in public. The amputated body parts were tossed into 55 gallon barrels and hauled away after it was all over.

Hard stuff to think about isn't it? Do you think the guys with one foot or one hand was happy to see an army coming to get rid of the Taliban? I would have been and I am glad I voted for George Bush.

By the way I voted for old man Bush before the first gulf war and after and I am glad I did. That war was well done with a minimum of civilian and military casualties, excerpt for the Iraqi army.

I am even glad about what Clinton did or allowed to be done in Serbia and Kosovo.

And Bosnia too. Good job. I can't remember if anybody protested these wars.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 10:43 PM

As some here have been at great pains to point out, many of the current crop of anti-war protestors were demonstrating in the streets of the US and Europe over US support to Saddam in the 1980s, just as we were demonstrating in the streets of the US and Europe against the Taliban regime, against the bloody Musharref regime, the bloody Somoza regime, the bloody Duvalier regimes, the bloody Marcos regime, etc etc etc, all around the world, for decades. You are a Limbaugh/O Reilly right wing johnny come lately, regurgitating everything you hear the right wing media pronounce as fact, with no basis in fact.

Don't you dare presume to lecture to peace and justice activists who have been fighting to end US support for (as former US ambassador to the UN Jeanne Kirkpatrick put it so bluntly) "our bloody bastards".


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 03 - 11:30 PM

Guest:

I did not realize I needed permission to post my point of view on this board. Whom do I ask for that permission?

I am stating facts that the anti war people do not want to think about. They don't have to read them if they don't want to.

History is full of mistakes like supporting Castro at one point. What was done to the slaves and the Indians. Allowing a dictator to take over Panama. Getting involved in a war with North Vietnam. We had a Civil war and the slaves were freed. Was that good or bad?

I think we need to get over the mistakes, admit them and go forward. There have been mistakes made by not taking action or not supporting someone when we should have. If we had fully supported the revolutionaries at the bay of pigs would Castro still be in power?

I like to think of the sucesses and learn from the failures so hopefully we do not repeat them.

I am not impressed by protestors. They are people unwilling to abide by the wishes of the majority.

If there was a cure found for cancer today, someone would be protesting it tomorrow. They cannot see the good in anything, only the bad.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 01:04 AM

NicoleC:

The statement I was responding to was "Hey, we don't like your government--we're gonna declare war on you!" How many people around the world would like to do that to us?"

My response was "The Islamic extremists declared war on the US." Isn't that what the Bin Ladin tapes are all about? Jihad against America? Maybe I heard wrong.

I thought the topic here was " MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!" All I am saying is that I don't think the millions marching do not account for the majority of the population. And that the demonstrators ignore the atrocities that will continue without action to depose the Saddam Hussein government.

If you were a victimized some how (by the way I am very sorry for anyone that has suffered from a heinous crime) and the police allowed it to happen, would you protest against someone who was trying to bring the Police department or Policemen involved to justice?

What are the totals anyway? I am curious. I like facts. It is good to know the facts. Some one stated 600 cities. You might come up with a large number if the total is multiplied by 100. And how many have died at the hand of dictators? I think Hitler was responsible for about 2 or 3 million. It a war to get rid of him.

As I stated elsewhere Saudi Arabia is being exposed a little at a time as not being such a good friend, And I said they are likely to become another Iraq if we do not act to plant a democracy there.

We were allies with the Mujahadeen, not the Taliban. The US government neglected that country and left it on it's own after the Russians lost interest, the Mujahadeen turned bad, the Taliban and UBL were hatched. All the more reason to get involved in nation building and stay involved.

If I was suffering from a brutal dictatorship and Russia or anybody wanted to depose that dictator, I would welcome them and do whatever I could to bring it about.

I don't recall any water treatment plants being targeted but As weird as it sounds, America alone buys 18 million dollars worth of oil a day from Iraq. (You may say that is BS but before you say it is a lie check it out.) If Saddam cared at all about his people he would build water treatment plants instead of more palaces to hide in, at least 50 at last count. If his people are dying from lack of sanitary water he would rather let them die so he can claim it is the fault of the US. The war protestors can fix on that as a reason to not have a war.

Interestingly enough, Our water supplies are a target of the Muslin extremists that have declared Jihad on the US

There was a food for oil program, hence the 18 mil a day oil sales, and I think that includes medicine, medical equipment anything necessary for the population. Saddam is diverting that money for military purposes and smuggling the war materiel in. Why can he get a million doses of atropine but he can't get basic medication and painkillers.

You have me on the depleted uranium. I will have to study that one. I am not going to try to comment on something I am not familiar with.

Yes I would think that anybody coming to liberate me from an oppressive regime would have my best interests at heart more so than the oppressor.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 01:46 PM

Old Guy, you are just playing the Bubba game of baiting the liberals and progressives. You aren't sincere, and you keep claiming that the liberals and progressives on this forum are trying to prevent you from expressing your opinion, which is utter bullshit.

But you are on now on my ignore list. Bye bye Bubba.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 02:48 PM

Be nice, guys. We are all entitled to different opinions (at least so far in this country) and we don't need to call each other names because of it.

Yes, Old Guy, I think most of the world is opposed to war, especially when it happens in their front yard. After all, what would you rather do, have a peaceful quiet life, or have your town and family blown up, shot, etc.? We are spoiled here, compared to some populations--we haven't had an actual big nasty war on our own soil since 1865. Sept. 11 took us all by surprise partly because we thought we were invulnerable.

It's obvious Saddam doesn't give a flying you-know-what for his people. He's a gangster who managed to take power by force and intimidation. It's also pretty clear that George Bush the First didn't care about them either. Leaflets were dropped encouraging the opposition to rise up at the end of the Gulf War, promising American support. They did, and if they'd had a little of that promised support, Saddam would be history now. But the Bush administration decided not to support them after all, and thousands were killed. 800,000 left the country. (I have given up trying to do links after my rousing lack of success, but the story was in the San Francisco Chronicle on Feb. 16.) Schwartzkopf had a clear road to Bagdad and could have finished the job then. So how come they didn't do it? Whatever the reason for that decision, you can bet it wasn't for the good of anybody but George Bush.

Saddam is probably just as much of a psycho as Hitler, and probably just as dangerous. But I still want to go after him with the agreement of the UN, not as American cowboys out to prove we can kick butt any time we want to.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 02:54 PM

Liberation by incineration. Good plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 01:21 PM

Besides the stereotype of a cowboy I see the stereotype of a peacenik.

I don't think we should use these stereotypes to describe anybody.

Are we either warmongers or peacemongers or cowboys?

I agree that it was a gigantic mistake when the '91 war was ended prematurely. Evidently the powers that were at the time thought there would be a revolution but it did not happen. Very similar to the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Ironically I think it was Powell that said that the mission was accomplished after they were 100 hours into the campaign. Now he has to try to finish the job.

Part of what we did was a success and taking Baghdad was not part of the original plan. I don't see why a missed opportunity should mean that we should take no action.

People in this thread and other threads keep saying millions of innocent people will be incinerated or otherwise killed. If you listen to the plans that the alliance has you will hear over and over again "in order to minimize civilian casualties we will. Etc Etc"

In Afghanistan we saw that measures were taken to avoid civilian casualties. There were some casualties, sure but if we don't do anything unless it is 100% safe and foolproof, we will never be able to do anything again. Every time an Airliner leaves the ground there is a possibility that it will crash and lives will be lost. Is that a reason to ground all airlines? The average number of deaths per mile is compared to the same number in auto accidents and we come to the conclusion that flying is many times safer than driving.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 04:18 PM

as much as I hate war, Im with old guy, on this one.
interesting that the other side resorts to name calling and insults.
people marched for peace in 91. If we had heeded them, Saddam would
still be in Kuwait, (and who knows where else, and who knows where the Kurds would be)

(I remember the arguments they made
that Saddam could have been forced out with sanctions)
(same sanctions people protested about later-
the children dying because of lack of medicine - while at the same
time Saddam orders 1000s of cases of Scotch, and builds palaces)

the only reason the inspectors were even allowed in- is the threat
of US force-

Its not up to the US to go and take out bastard dictators,
but the world has changed over the last few years, you have terrorists
who would use whatever weapons they could against the west.
and you have dictators with oil money financing their weapons building
and at some point - those paths will cross.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 04:32 PM

That stuff in Afghanistan hasn't stopped, just because there's a new sort of government. Not so much in Kabul, where there's a certain amount of attention being paid, but it's a fairly big country, and in much of it the same people are in control who were in control before.

Have there been any marches organised by people in support of the war policy? Anywhere? (That's a question - for all I know there have been.)


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM

The people that support the war do not see the need to march. Do they have to march to counter the anti war marchers?

If you saw people marching for the rights of cockroaches would you have to rush out and march with signs saying down with cockroaches?

I do expect people to be touting insect's rights some day.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 05:17 PM

It's just that, Old Guy, you seem to be saying that people who don't march against the government can be counted as supporting the government. It seems to me that it works just as well the other way round.

Back in 1968 one of the crucial things in keeping De Gaulle in power was a massive march in his support, to counter the massive march calling for him to go.

If people don't care enough to stand up and be counted it doesn't sound as if they can really care too much one way or another. The people who marched on Saturday, in London anyway (which was the only march of the day of which I have direct experience) were mostly not the kind of people who go on marches. All the evidence is that for a large majority it was the first time in their lives they've done anything like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Oldguy
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM

I stand up and I am counted on Election Day.

Then I pay my taxes. Then I abide by the laws. I treat other respectably. What else do I need to do?

It seems marching around with a sign and hurling insults at the authorities I voted for is being disrespectful. To have both sides marching leads to conflicts that frequently result in violence, burning and looting.

I saw a good demonstrator's sign on TV recently. It was an African nation on the west coast of Africa where people were being exploited somehow. There was a group of black people holding sign saying "Help us Bush"

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 06:54 PM

Of course "Help us Bush" could mean quite a lot of different things, some of them nothing to do with Dubya at all.

"I stand up and I am counted on Election Day.

Then I pay my taxes. Then I abide by the laws. I treat other respectably."

That's what they did all those years in the USSR; and in places like Iraq today. In itself it doesn't necessarily add up to democracy. There's got to be some sense in which your contribution registers.

Probably most of the people on Saturday in London voted for Tony Blair, and those who didn't pay their taxes and generally treat other people respectably. Public demonstrations are part of the very fabric of democracy, a feedback which politicians badly need. Anybody who seeks to interfere with that is a kind of traitor to democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:03 PM

Old Guy, to me, personally, the vision you have of democracy is very different than mine, or that which I think the Constitution represents. You seem to feel that the only influence citizens should have is once a year (or thereabouts) at elections. As imperative and important as voting is, the problem with this, to me, is that the only people that ever discuss issues are then the politicians. ANd lord knows most of them have nothing of substance to say, and frequently lie about it anyway. Just voting isn't much of a choice when both (or more) candidates are all equally inept.

"Demos" = People
"Kratos" = Authority

If the authority is invested in the people, then the definition of a democratic citizen is one whom exercises influence over their representatives and holds them accountable for their actions. Citizenship is not passive, it's an active responsibility. We may elect representatives for the sake of expediency, but that doesn't mean that representative then takes on dictatorial powers until the next election.

Freedom of speech is not just enshrined in our Constitution because it's a nice idea. The framers understood that words and free action are some of the most powerful weapons that can be wielded against a government which acts against the interest of the people. If history has shown us anything, it's that politicians aren't perfect, governments are corrupt, and democracy works best when the citizens are involved and paying attention. Freedom of speech is necessary to inform the citizenry of all sides of the issues at hand; free elections cannot be held without a free discussion of the issues.

It's not disrespectful to speak up when we disagree with the government, it's our civic duty. This year, the government wants us to go to war. You may agree 100% with everything THIS administration says, but if the government is the only one talking, you can't make an informed decision. What if they were saying something else? Would you meekly accept that you must just be a stupid citizen, and the benevolent government knows better than you? Democracy = People-Authority. It may be a great priviledge, but the government is also the responsibility of every citizen.

I'd like nothing better than to have my elected representatives in Congress holding an open and meaningful discussion about the pros and cons of the situation in Iraq. When they don't uphold their constitutional responsibility, it falls on the citizenry (People-Authority.) to hold them accountable. They represent us and our opinions, not dictate those opinions to us.

You mentioned earlier that you thought the protestors weren't accepting the majority opinion. That's not true -- if they weren't, there wouldn't be peace marches, there would be open rebellion against the government. It's nice to chat and write emails to your Congressperson, but showing up in person is the ultimate expression of your participation in a democracy. I'm sorry you don't understand what an incredibly historic event happened last weekend that so many millions worldwide turned out to protest a war before the first bomb was dropped. It was utterly unprecedented. Voices and opinions were heard. Now the politicians of the world can choose, or not, to heed them -- that's representation in action. What does it say about the power of this protest that countries like Syria and Lebanon that have no real precedent of free speech found the power of democracy by the hundreds of thousands? Impressive. Almost overwhelming.

I'm glad you vote; too many people don't even bother to do that anymore. Most of them don't feel like their votes matter because the policians don't listen to them no matter what they do. Maybe they need to state their opinions more often, not less.

/philosophical mode off


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:05 PM

Kevin - your old enough to remember Viet-Nam, did you not march then ??

Oh and in case anybody misunderstands my point, we were accused then of supporting the Comunists/Viet Cong/NVLA.

And I've no regrets to have done so.

Gareth

"Ho Ho Ho Chi Min"


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 07:21 PM

Of course I marched then. My point was that for most of the people on the march it was their first time out, and I pointed that out because it is an indication of the width of unease at what is going on. In a way going on a march has an even greater symbolic meaning when it is someone who is breaking a habit of a lifetime. Like the first time you sing a song in public, it costs more.

Reading what Nicole wrote there I realised why that phrase of Old Guy "hurling insults at the authorities" had made me feel so uneasy. The point is, in a democracy, the bottom line is that we are the authorities, and the people we employ to take care of business have a duty to respect us, rather than the other way round, as would be the case in an autocratic system or an oligarchic system. (Though the truth is, in practical terms we do live in an oligarchic system.)


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 09:21 PM

mcgrath of harlow, are you saying things havent changed in Afghanistan? Idont see any people being shot in soccer stadiums.
Did you expect changes overnight? The country is devastated from years of war and neglect by the international community.
IT will take years to rebuild, and consolidate - by the Afghans themselves.

- theres nothing wrong with protesting and marching for peace,
the Vietnam war - was ended by the tide of public opinion
and rightly so.
on the other hand - a lot of people were opposed to the US action in Afghanistan, as were the gulf war in 91. And I doubt that either could have been solved through diplomatic means.

those protesting against any action against Saddam, are saying that thousands of innocent Iraqi people will die. Thousands of innocent Iraqis have already died, an estimated 100,000 Kurds not to mention the Marsh Arabs, the Shia minority etc. Its a safe bet that many more will die if he continues in power.

it comes down to whether one believes Saddam is continuing to build wmds. If the Israelis hadnt bombed the Osirak nuclear reactor in 81
he would have had the bomb years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Feb 03 - 11:00 PM

Here, print off a poster!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:38 AM

Nicole: the subject of what to do with Iraq was debated in the Congress. Congress voted to allow Bush to do as he saw fit. I think the problem you have is he is not doing what you think he should do.

I think it is fine for people to march if that's what they want to do. I don't think it has much affect on what the government does however. If it makes the marchers feel good, that's fine.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 01:50 AM

No Doug, my problem is that the Constitution clearly states that only Congress can declare war, not the President and not the Judiciary, and I feel that our Congress has abdicated their Constitutional requirement to exercise that duty. Any resolution that says, "yeah, do whatever you want" is a pathetic passing of the buck, and unconstitutionally transfers powers to another branch of the government. It's Congress' job, dammit, to be discussing this!

When folks try to justify war, they always point to WWII as an example of a just war. I agree -- there was a clear example of a tyrant who could not be removed or swayed except by war.

Is it just coincidence that that was the last time Congress reached a specific accord on war, instead of weaseling out of the job?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:00 AM

The reason that you will never see a "pro-war" rally of the kind that we just saw against the war is that the "pro-war" types ane not the kind that you can galvanize with slogans. They are not collectivists or socialist types. They tend to be more individualistic and iconoclastic.
That's not the kind that goes to mass rallies. They'll work quietly on their own for something they believe in but rarely will they join with the like-minded and march.
The anti-war protesters find their strength in numbers and use the fact of millions marching as proof of the rectitude of their position. With so many supporters, they must be right!
And then I recall the mass demonstrations that Mao used to stage.
Based on what I have read, seen and gotten from friends in Europe, the main sentiment there was not anti-war but anti-America. We are the big dog on the block and they are irrevalent on the world stage.
To conclude, the statement was made that only Rush and Hannity conspiracy theorises would believe that the proteses helped Saddam.
To the contrary, only the most naive would think that it did not.
The only thing that has gotten Saddam to cooperate the little bit that he has, has been the threat of force. Mobilize the troops and the inspectors are allowed back in. Put another carrier in the Persian Gulf and suddenly the Iraqi scientists are allowed to be interviewed. Etc, Etc.
Watch and see if his stance doesn't harden again by next week. You may say that it's not because of the protests but will you truly believe it?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 10:30 AM

I think your assessment of the personality types is hysterical, Troll. There are all kinds of people on both sides -- but to say that someone who protests is the kind of person who just goes along with a crowd is illogical if they are considered to be in the minority, right?

Particularly considering the masses numbed by TV that will believe whoever is talking loudest on TV regardless of they are saying. If the political commentators started yelling for peace next week, they'd believe that. There'd still be those "iconoclasts" holding out for war, of course -- I'm not saying all those pro-war are all mindless and easily swayed. But a lot of America, sadly, is.

Truth is, there aren't "pro-war" protests because people who are pro-war aren't trying to change anything or present a different opinion. And that's really all there is to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 12:22 PM

"U.N. inspectors report decline in Iraqi cooperation ..." This is the headline of a Washington Post story written by Rajiv Chandrasekaran and reproduced in our local newspaper today.

"President Saddam Hussein's governiment, apparantly emboldened by antiwar sentiment at the U.N. Security Council and in WORLDWIDE STREET PROTESTS (my emphasis), has not followed through on its promises of increased cooperation with the inspectors, according to U.N. arms inspectors in Iraq." The full article can be found at the Washington Post website.

So, #1. Do you still believe the inspections are "working?" And #2. Did the worldwide marches benefit Saddam or not?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:02 PM

I'll wait until I see what Hans Blix reports back, not try to second-guess him with stories in newspapers that tend to get their stories from people with their own agenda. There are clearly all kinds of complicated games going on, and we are on the outside.

Thee's a balance between keeping Saddam worried enough to be cooperative, and not making him so convinced that he's had it anyway that cooperation wouldn't make any sense.

Here's a piece from today's Guardian which I think gives a hint of the complications - "Blix set to request destruction of Iraqi missiles". This could be a crunch point - and if Saddam is certain he's going to be attacked, whatever happens, it's hardly too likely he'll go along with it. From this point of view the marches could in fact be expected to have helped. Who knows? Who is going to know in our lifetime, till eventually the files get opened and the facts get revealed for discussion by historians?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:07 PM

I expect that Saddam will destroy those weapons and probably invite CNN in to watch the destruction. What's a few weapons compared to the large number he is suspected of having. Destroying them would convince all you liberals that he is at last fully cooperating.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM

Gee, Doug, what is it *IS* all he has? Yes, he's "suspected" of having weapons, but that doesn't mean they're there. If the inspectors don't find anything, hawks insist they're just hidden. If they do find the weapons, hawks will insist there's more, because it suits their agenda.

You can't prove a negative, and trying to get him to do that is just an old fashioned witchhunt, one in which the bystanders are the ones punished.

And we STILL haven't seen the "proof" the US "has" that was promised us during elections. Wonder why? Maybe it isn't there, and we're just guessing the lady with the mole on her face must be a witch in league with Satan?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:23 PM

So he'd be best advised not to destroy them? Not so long ago, Doug, and you were saying thta there woldn't be a war, because the whole idea was thatbthe threat of a war would push Saddam into getting rid of anything he'd got - but now that what you said might happen might even be happening, you think what you thought then was nonsense, apparently.

the large number he is suspected of having... Some kind of evidence might be useful to lend force to suspicions. So far as rockets are concerned I haven't heard anything much about large numbers suspected of being in existance.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:47 PM

How can you say he doesn't have WMD's when they were found after the Gulf War. He had Anthrax, VX and Mustard Gas and there is not one shred of proof that he EVER destroyed them as he promised to do.
For G-ds sake people, go back and check the records if you don't want to believe me. Tom Daschle stated in November, 2002 that we knew that Saddam had the chemical and biologicals and that he was working on nukes. Of course, he's changed his tune since then but he did say it and he voted "aye" on the resolution to go to war.
The fact that the present Inspectors have found nothing simply says that Saddam has hidden them a little better than last time.
And please don't try to say that it could mean that there are none because that dog just won't hunt. The WMD's were there in '94. Where are they now?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 02:51 PM

Am I the only one that heard about the mustard gas that was destroyed (last week some time): per the news report I heard it had been located by the team of instpectors thrown out previously after the gulf war - and per the Iraqi it had been "missed" during destruction.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:10 PM

In Blix's report last Friday he pointed out the the question of whether the Iraqis were lying when they said that the stocks of anthrax had been destroyed or not was an open question, and he indicated that he was on the trail of evidence that could indicate what the actual truth is.

So let's see what he comes up with - and take whatever time is needed to do the job properly. He's said gwe doesn't see this inpection as an open-ended process (though the monitoring aftrwards to make sure that Saddam doesn't rearm, assuming it is determined that he hasn't gotb any WMDs, might well be open-ended, and Blix said that too, and it makes sense.)


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:11 PM

MMario, do you remember where you saw that? I sure missed it.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:15 PM

heard it on the tube - (I wasn't watching at the time - in fact in the other room so I only heard the discussion about the destruction of the mustard gas) I *do* remember it clearly because my grandfather was gassed in WWI - had permanent damage to his lungs from the mustard gas - so the fact they had it stockpiled registered quite well. also that the location and quantity had been known since the previous team had been tossed.

Probably either fox news or msnbc as those are the two my B-I-L watches most.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

Funny that I didn't see it in any of the news sites that I frequent. Anyone?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 03:47 PM

Here's a link to a Reuters report on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 04:01 PM

Thank you! I was beginning to think I had imagined it!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 07:24 PM

I see a bright side to these marches. Saddam will get emboldened by the number of people marching and screw with the inspectors so bad that they loose patience and declare inspections are not working.

The inspectors leave and the alliance moves in. Maybe us "warmongers" should go out and join the marches too and speed things along so our guys are not roasting in those chemical proof suits in May.

Required equipment:

Dirty tee shirt with Marijuana leaf on the back and peace symbol on the front.

Dirty patched up bell bottom jeans

Sandals

Long scraggly hair

Sun glasses

Sign saying "make love not war"

Optional equipment to enhance credibility:

VW Microbus painted with peace symbols, doves, flowers and various anti war slogans.


Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:38 PM

As long as ya'll are randomy; making up stuff about the "evil" done by peopel marching for peace and not blowing innocent foks up, how's this for an effect of the peace marches:

Millions of middle easterners are starting to think that the west, and in particular the US, is waging a religious crusade against them. Then they are egged on by the likes of bin Laden. (And I gotta admit sometimes it seems like that's the Shrub's plan from this side of the ocean, too.) If it's a crusade against Islam, it's ever good Muslim's duty to defend their faith.

Millions of decadent, western people showed up to say they don't agree. How many terrorist converts and attacks on the west will that prevent?


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Subject: Tonight on Frontline
From: Alice
Date: 20 Feb 03 - 08:49 PM

To add this to an existing thread, hoping I'm not repeating what has already been posted, there is a Frontline program being aired on PBS tv tonight on Bush's agenda in Iraq - after the war.

Bush's Grand Strategy - The War Behind Closed Doors.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM

NicoleC:

I might have missed it but did y'all answer the one about should we demonstrate against the people that were going to take out the evil policeman or police force that did somebody wrong?

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:11 PM

Dunno, Old Guy. I can't figure out what you are referring to?


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:16 PM

The warmongers are calling us, "peace mongers" and "psychos of hatred".


For a better america... http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/ductapeer.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,old guy
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 12:35 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:16 PM

NicoleC:

Maybe it was CarolC but someone said they were the victim of a heinous crime while the police watched. I asked them if they would demonstrate against someone that wanted to bring the Policemen or Police force involved to justice.

I can't find my post or the answer in this writhing mass of threads. I am not saying she did not answer.


Donuel:

The anti-war demonstrators are calling us non demonstrators "warmongers". I think I'll cry.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM

No, that was me. You asked if I would be willing to dodge bombs to bring them to justice. Hell, no! You see, there's a difference between "bring to justice" and "slaughter thousands of innocent bystanders."

As I said previously, I would absolutely not support any action -- even if theoretically on my behalf -- against either the perpetrators or the police, which wantonly jeapordized innocent lives, whether or not they included my own. One does not achieve justice for a crime by committing more crimes and causing more injustice.

If the Iraqis wished to achieve liberty by spilling their own blood, there would be a mass uprising going on. Instead, a few fringe groups, mostly not in the areas of Iraq under Saddam's control, are the ones rebelling, and none of them agree with each other or will work together. (Save the Kurds, who for all intents and purposes live in a US protectorate, and don't want to overthrow Saddam, they want their own country.)

The Iraq people are not telling us they are willing to die to get rid of Saddam. Instead, they are protesting against what they perceive as American aggression, and supporting Saddam inn response. I would wholeheartly support the US military helping a popular uprising from among multiple factions (i.e. broadbased support) in Iraq against Saddam. But the impetus needs to come within, or it is simply vaguely disguised US imperialism, not a battle for freedom or justice or supposedly "saving" the Iraqis.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:24 AM

Attention people of Iraq:

We, the anti-war protestors of America, after declaring ourselves to be in the majority and righteous above all others, regardless of what our elected officials are attempting to do, do hereby declare that for your own good, no help will be forthcoming in the form of an attempt to cause a change of your regime.

We have decided that our bloodthirsty military is targeting millions of you with thousands of bombs aimed directly at you instead of military targets. We will not let this happen.

You must hereby quit whining and rise up and defeat your brutal regime on your own while we hold our military in check, that is, if you want a regime change. We are not convinced that you really want a regime change because we don't see anyone marching there with posters saying anything derogatory about Saddam Hussein. Good luck.

Now, where were we? Oh yes. Every body sing: "We will over come, We will over come." (repeat this over and over to drown out any screams of children young and old people being raped tortured, mutilated, soaked in acid, eyes being gouged out, limbs being amputated or just plain being murdered)


Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:55 AM

Attention people of Iraq:

We, the pro-war government of America, after declaring ourselves to represent the majority, and righteous above all others, regardless of what millions of people throughout the world are attempting to tell us, do hereby declare that for your own good, we must bomb and invade you in an attempt to cause a change of your regime.

We have decided that our surgical military cannot possibly harm millions of you with thousands of bombs aimed directly at you because we will aim only at military targets. We pinkie promise this will happen with no harm to you.

You must hereby duck and cover while we defeat your brutal regime on our own while we hold our treasonous peaceniks in check, because you definitely want an immediate regime change at any cost. We are convinced that the traitor peaceniks don't want a regime change because we don't see enough of them marching with posters saying anything derogatory about Saddam Hussein. Good luck.

Now, where were we? Oh yes. Every body sing: "Onward Christian Soldiers" (repeat this over and over to drown out any screams of Iraqi children, young, and old people being burned, mutilated, soaked in blood, eyes full of shrapnel, limbs being blown off, or Americans just plain being murdered during the terrorist backlash that we promise won't happen).

TIA

(If this doesn't speak for you, please don't try to speak for me. If it does speak for you,... wow).


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:16 AM

I heard an interesting story on the news today. It seems the City of San Francisco wanted to get an accurate count of the number of peace marchers, so they hired a company that specializes in that sort of thing.
Said company took photos with a camera that was floor-mounted in a small plane of the area where the protest was held. They then enlarged the photos to the point that they could easily pick out individuals. They also did exit counts at the BARTA stations in the area as well as counts on the Bridge and ferrys. These counts were then compared to counts taken at similar days and times when nothing was going on.
The march organizers claimed 200,00 to 250,00 marchers.
The companies count was 65,00 with a +/- 10% error.
Has anyone else seen or heard this?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:26 AM

We the silent non-demonstrators of America, do hereby proudly support our elected government in carrying out their sworn duties. We will not attempt be the judge, and jury for the proposed actions of our government. We will allow others the freedom of speech and other rights declared in the Constitution of the United States of America. We appreciate the fact that our forefathers fought and died to attain these rights. We will bear the insults and derision from anti-war protestors with humility because we appreciate the things others take for granted and we see a better life ahead, not gloom and doom. We will remain silent while they support each other in their defeatist attitudes by chanting their antiwar mantras as they must do to remain a cohesive group. We will have compassion for less fortunate fellow human beings around the world and we will support our Government at great personal and human cost in its attempts to assist those same people, while others are deadlocked with fear of the unknown.
We the non-demonstrators, hold these truths to be self evident.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:27 AM

I don't know, Troll but I doubt that count would be that accurate either. All "counts" are based on "yeah, looks like xxxxx, what do you think, Joe?" Ditto for counts of pictures of crowds, and give the huge number of out-of-town buses coming in and carpoolers, counting vehicles wouldn't be much help.

Usually the organizers double what they think the count is, and the police dramatically undercount... so somewhere in the middle is probably close to accurate :) In this case though, police said 150,000 and organizers said 250,000. If there's a police force on the planet that can make a decent protest crowd count, it's probably the SF Dept. They've have enough experience.

I can't find any news reports on this searching the various wire services and web. If true, I'm glad I don't pay taxes in the city, What a horrendous waste of money.

We will not attempt be the judge, and jury for the proposed actions of our government.
Translation: we abdicate our responsibilities as citizens of a democracy to control our government.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: annamill
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:37 AM

wow! Shades of Vietnam!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

"We will bear the insults and derision from anti-war protestors
with humility because we appreciate the things others take for granted"

Again, please do not speak for me or mischaracterize my position - that is derisive and insulting! And what exactly are we taking for granted?

"We will remain silent while they support
each other in their defeatist attitudes by chanting their antiwar mantras as they must do to remain a cohesive group"

Again,again, please do not speak for me or mischaracterize my attitude or motives - that is derisive and insulting!

"We will have compassion for less fortunate fellow
human beings around the world"

Many marchers have been marching for this (and leading lifestyles consistent with this) their entire lives (not just since the drive towards war in Iraq began). I support this goal %100 - glad we're on the same team. Unfortunately we disagree on how our government is going about attaining this goal.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:06 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,OldGuy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:24 PM

I am being called stupid, gullible, blind and vague here. I can handle the insults and I feel I can respond in kind to my oponents in this debate. Those that object to it do not have to come here and read my posts.

I just came across some interesting polls. They are at iraqvoice.com

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 03:26 PM

I sincerely hope that I have not called you stupid, gullible or blind. If I have, I apologize. Peace and Music brother Old Guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:04 PM

Tia:

No you haven't which is very respectful but others have. Peace

I also found supposedly Iraqi Chat rooms at iraqvoice.com

I got into the Baghdad room but nobody would talk to me except to say Hi. Some of them were using english words. I got in the Basra room but again nobody would talk to me but get this, they were playing music. It was a voice chatroom but I could not hear it because I did not want to download the player plugin.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:14 PM

Interesting music page on that site there, Old Guy (I keep on typing Old Gut - if it gets through it'll just be a typo, nothing moe) - here's the index page - takes a bit of time loading it, but after that it's quick enough. I rather like the Assyrian Song2.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:45 PM

Saddam Hussein, emboldened by the recent antiwar demonstrations, refuses to destroy his al Samoud missiles. Hans Blix and Baradei say that the Iraqis are not cooperating. Hans says he might persuade the Iraqis to comply in a few weeks. (ABC news)

Is this and example of the working inspections?

Is it the job of the inspectors to make Iraq comply or the job of the UN?


Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:56 AM

There are games of bluff and double bluff going on.

The best hope of Saddam cooperating fully with the inspections is if he believes that if he doesn't cooperate he's had it, and that if he does there isn't going to be an invasion. Every time Bush and Co give signals that indicate that no matter what happens an invasion is on, the possibility of cooperation is diminished. It seems to me that that is a far more likely explanation if what's reported there is true.

Which I imagine is the idea, since I am sure that the last thing Bush wants is for Saddam to cooperate and be given a clean bill of health so far as Weapons of Mass Desruction are involved, because they aren't the real reason for the planned war in any case.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST,Oldguy
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM

The problem is that even if sanctions and inspections work and Saddam does get rid of his WMDs, he will try to get them back. He will continue to divert money that should be spent to benefit the citizens toward his growing number of palaces, 50 at last count, and his secret programs to develop more WMDs.

It is his plan to wear down the UN as he has done before. Pres Bush woke up the UN and forced them to resume their responsibilities.

It will be embarrassing if he does disarm because it will thwart the effort to have a regime change. He may well do that to stay in power but the citizens will continue to suffer.

I think the original purpose of 1441 is to state that Iraq is in violation of previous resolutions, inspections will begin to prove or disprove if he is in compliance and if it is found that he is not in compliance it will constitute a material breach and he will be subject to serious consequences.

I think everyone will agree that he has been found not to be in compliance. The US and it's allies want to begin the serious consequences but other countries want to extend the process and give Saddam more time. Every day that passes give him a better advantage and the allies a diminished advantage.

At he risk of being over simplistic, the longer we wait, the more people will die.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: tar_heel
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:09 PM

oh yea?....well,where the hell were all these millions of protestors when the USA was attacked by the terrorist organization and over 3,000 lives were lost at the world trade center and the pentegon and the hijacked plane that crashed in pennsylvainia?i don't remember any millions of them going to afghanistan,iraq or wherever to protest the attack on our country!...i think you all got your heads screwed on wrong!


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:17 PM

If you remember there was a wave of symnpathy and support from all round the planet, including from inside countries currently described as part of this "axis of evil".

There is no reason whatsoever to link September 11th to Iraq. For that matter the link to anything happening in Afghanistan is not all that convincing. The main places where September 11th appears tomhave been planned and orgaised appears to have been inside the USA, in Western Europe, and in Saudi Arabia.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:30 PM

Tar heel, what are you smoking?

Immediately following the attack on September 11th, America had the genuine sympathy and support of the world. The enemy was international terrorism and we were the victims. Since then, George W. Bush and his Merry Men have managed to squander all of that, and THIS is the result.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:23 PM

Yeah, Don, I read that this morning in the Washington Post. Pretty incredible turn of sympathies in the world in just such a short time.
I think the "huff, puff and whack you" foreign policy that cowboy Bush has brought to Washington could use some serious warrenty work.

What? No Warrenty! Why would we elect a guy without a warre.....

Nevermind!

I forgot.

*We* didn't. His daddy's Supreme Court did...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: TIA
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:30 PM

tar heel;

Know where the millions of protestors were right after 9/11? I know where this one was - donating blood and loaning equipment to the rescuers. Didn't have time to protest. Oh yeah, and I'm not a citizen of Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, nor a member of Al Quaida, so I tend to have little say with THEIR leadership. Actually, as it turns out, I have little say with MY leadership. Sheesh.


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Subject: Hurray for Colfax California Peace Marchers!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 09:28 PM

Well, they say the population of my little town of Colfax, California, is 1,496. I have to say I'm pretty proud that 50 or more people from my town braved the rain and cold today and showed up for a wonderful peace march. I think we must have covered three or four miles, walking along the Interstate 80 frontage road. The traffic was heavy today because of the skiers coming down from the Sierra, so we got good exposure. Lots of friendly honks, and just a few raised middle fingers.

I was amazed at how many truckers gave us a horn blast when they saw our "Honk for Peace" signs.

We were followed by a small group of maybe 20 pro-war demonstrators. I thought it was kind of nice that we were all in line together, speaking for what we believe in.


Hurray for Colfax, California, Population 1,496!!!!

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 09:46 PM

Good on you, Joe!

Hey, whatn you folks did was as important as what we did in D.C. yesterday. Maybe more!

I'm so proud of folks in small communities where folks know each other who step out and say "Not In Out Name". That takes courage.

Just keep going after Wednesday or Thursday when the satkes go higher and Bush does something that has not been done since Teddy Roosevelt did in 1898: invade another country!

But for tonight, inspite of the fact that I have participated in 3 of the 4 major demonstrations in D.C. over the last 6 months, I'm danged proud of you folks fighting it out in the smaller 'burgs! Danged proud!

Peace (Reist War, if you will...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Troll
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM

Bobert, have you seriously considered the possible consequences to the world if Saddam isn't stopped?
Suppose your protests stop an invasion. With the last twelve years as a blueprint, Saddam would reduce cooperation to the point that the inspectors would leave, just like the last time. France, Germany, and North Korea would continue to supply him with weapons and technology just as they have been doing.
And then he tests a nuclear device and decides that he is strong enough to take Kuwait again or have another go at Iran using nuclear blackmail. Or maybe he would decide to hit Israel and wipe out all the cities but Jerusalem.
We could easily have a nuclear war is he isn't stopped now.
Have you considered the fact that that would be "In Your Name"?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: DougR
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 03:18 AM

No, Troll, Bobert doesn't even think in those terms. To Bobert & Company, only these things are important (IMO): war with Iraq must be avoided at all costs.

He and those who think like him evidently believe that if nothing is done, Saddam will become a good guy. He will not continue to develop his program of producing weapons of mass destruction, he will be nice to his neighbors, he will never be a threat to anyone, and he will attend church every Sunday.

That does not, however coincide with his statement of today. He is quoted by CNN, the major networks (I'll not mention Fox News in deference to Toad)as saying, "If attacked, Iraq will take the war anywhere in the world, wherever there is sky, land or water."

Now if Saddam is serious about that, he must have a means to do it, right? Liberals are fond of pointing out that he has no ties to terrorists, so he couldn't do it by providing assistance to terrorists could he? He has no long-range missles, and no weapons of mass destruction, no airforce to speak of, no navy, so how do you suppose he proposes to carry out his threat?

Bobert?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:47 PM

And the millions who marched have now been proven right. Now I wonder how all this mess in Iraq is going to get cleaned up. Will we ever have peace in the Middle East?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 11:15 PM

Yeah, Joe, I don't hear these conquerers beatin' on their chests these days. Seems that their guy lied thru his teeth and thyis was done at a time when millions of olks were on the streets saying to him "You'd better have the evidence, Buster, 'cause we don't see it your way!" and now we find, that he didn't have squat! And worse than not having squat is that he still says he had "good intellegence". What kind of liar is caught lieing and just tells another lie? A stupid one, that's what kind....

We told all you war mongers to slow down but you couldn't wait to go out and have the world's greatest super p[ower whip up on a third rate army. Did you enjoy it? Like, was it good for you? You still enjoying it?

Next time around, listen to reason. If you all want to see some folks hurt, buy a ticket to yer local boxing event, but, fir God's sake, don't give this President a blank check to attack people. That is just a reflection on your intellegence level....

Don't want to hear it? Quit supporting stupid imperialstic foriegn policy...

"Pompous" Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 02:52 PM

In The March of Folly: From Troy to Vietnam, the late Barbara Tuchman (one of America's foremost historians) examines the tendency of governments to act stubbornly and perversely against their own best interests. As Ms. Tuchman outlines it, a particular course of action must meet three criteria to be considered folly:

1. It must have been seen as such by contemporaries; people at the time saw it as foolhardy and said so, but were ignored.
2. Another, better, course of action (seen to have been such by many people at the time) must have been available;
3. The decision to follow the ill-advised course of action was not just the decision of one individual, it was espoused by both the leader and a group of his supporters.

These three criteria serve to separate true folly from the incompetence and/or insanity of an individual ruler. In her book, Tuchman analyses three monumental historical "screw-ups." The semi-mythological fall of Troy as a result of a stupid decision made after the war had been all but won; how the Renaissance Popes provoked the Protestant uprising that eventually led to the Thirty Years' War (in which nearly one third of Europe's population was wiped out); and the Vietnam war.

If Barbara Tuchman, a remarkably lucid historian and writer, were still alive, she could add yet another chapter or two to her excellent book. Not only has the Iraqi war not accomplished what the Bush Administration claimed it would (by way of excuses for pre-emptively invading), it has failed to accomplish the Bush Administration's hidden agenda.

These recent events amply demonstrate that the "political animal" is incapable of learning and evolving--and they further demonstrate the necessity of reasserting limits on the powers of government.

If Bush, the usurper, thinks he can do what he has done so far, imagine what he might do if he gets "re-elected" and thinks he has a mandate, not just from Karl Rove and the rest of the neo-conservative cabal (and, or course, God), but the American people as well. It's obvious that an even worse folly would be for American voters to actually elect the Bush Administration to office in 2004.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 07:29 PM

I think "folly" is too nice-sounding a word -- it rhymes with "jolly", ferchrissakes.

"Idiocy" or "criminal stupidity" would be my choice.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 10:01 PM

Thanks for putting me on to Barbara Tuchman, Don. Will follow up.

Apparently US troops today killed a couple of the Iraqi cops they've been recruiting and training. And we've just been allowed a glimpse Basra, which is under British occupancy, and which turns out to be a nightmare, with no fuel to power air-conditioning, fridges or anything else. (I can only quote snapshot impressions, because by and large the world's press has moved on, and Iraq is disappearing down the news agenda as quickly as Afghanistan did once it became an insoluble nightmare.

I was going to say whoever would have expected things to turn out any less messy than they have? I would have meant it rhetorically. But skimming some of the old posts here I realise that there are those who did indeed dream the dream. DougR may even now be watching for the skies to turn black with Iraqi missiles. And troll will be wondering why there has been no Iraqi nuclear assault on Israel, an acknowledged nuclear power.

It is good to hear, via Mudcat, that there are, or have been, protests throughout the US as well as in Europe, the middle east, etc, because the UK press tells us litle about them.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 11:29 PM

Absolutely correct, Fionn. Lots of us were onto Bush and Blair long before the invasion. Millions of us took to the streets around the world telling B&B that they had better take a long hard look at their justifications and evidence. However, now we see that B&B couldn't have cared less about evidence. Their loud and repeated lies trumped the truth.

Now the truth is now fighting its way to the surface. For Teribus, DougR, et al, what is your latest story?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 10:57 PM

Yes as a matter of fact, Doug R, I agreed with you that if I was wrong I would admit it to you. But alas, I am unable to yet comply.(wink)
I finally got my photos developed from that day, this week. I took a lot of good ones and am happy I became involved in the marches. It was good for my soul.
Still raising my voice for PEACE! Rustic


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 11:26 PM

Don't expect to hear much from Dougie, RR. Or Teribus. Or, ahhh, well you know the cast who were poundin' the war drum a few months back. Their drum is quiet now. Their rationalizations for war lay like 3 week old road kill. No, you won't hear from these folks. They don't know what to say since their boys don't know what to say either. They would just rather that no one asks any questions so they don't have to tell any more lies....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 01:00 PM

Remember how all the ranters at Fox and Clear Channel called on the millions of marching, Saddam-loving, traitorous peaceniks to apologize for being so wrong? I'm still waiting for an answer to "wrong about what?"

TIA uncookied


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: DougR
Date: 13 Aug 03 - 05:08 PM

I still think the U. S., Great Britain, and the rest of the coalition did the right thing. They will get it all sorted out sometime in the future, and the Iraqi people will be the better off because of it.

I assume, when evidence that Saddam was indeed pursuing production of weapons of mass destruction all of you naysayers will admit you were wrong, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:26 PM

Doug, Do you look at the News?, even the US media realise your Government have blundered into an unsolvable situation. Never in our life-time will the Iraqi chaos be sorted out.
Day after day a US soldier is killed, this has all of the makings of an even worse situation than the British problem in Ireland.Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: BS: MILLIONS MARCHING FOR PEACE!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Aug 03 - 06:22 AM

"...pursuing weapons of mass destruction" DougR? You and your leaders really are singing off the same hymn sheet! You even water down your claims in unison.


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