BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee

Subject: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: The Pooka
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:16 PM

I've heard of "you've been docked for the time you was up in the sky" but this is goin' beyond the beyonds. Perhaps there are bigger issues on the British agenda just now but hey, we all need some Relief, here. From across the pond I shout, these employers are full of shite. Go Union!

Workers Fight for Their Toilet Rights
Reuters
Feb 21 2003 8:42AM

LONDON (Reuters) - Workers of the world unite -- over the toilets.

British union chiefs launched a campaign Friday to flush out employers who dock their workers' pay when they take a washroom break.

The Trades Union Congress (TUC) "Gotta Go" campaign is targeting a legal loophole that says bosses must provide lavatories for staff, but aren't bound to let them go when they need to.

"It's incredible to think that in the 21st century workers are still being penalized for going to the loo," TUC spokesman Brendan Barber said in a statement.

"Employers clinging to Dickensian bathroom break policies should understand that if they trusted and respected their staff, they would end up with a healthier, better motivated, more productive workforce," he said.

The TUC, a national trades union body, said it wants workers to have the right to go on paid time, without any loss of wages.

It said it will name and shame employers who fail to provide adequate and clean toilet facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM

Maybe the employers will meet them halfway and provide catheters and pissbags.

Won't save them any money though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:31 PM

They won't let ya go when ya need to? Fuck 'em! Piss on the floor!

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: The Pooka
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:38 PM

Aaah the cheap bastards would probably want the union to pay for the accessories. "Employers clinging to Dickensian bathroom break policies", indeed. Are there no pissants? Are there no outhouses? Yes, the former are in the front office chiseling the wages of workers using the latter. OHHH NO! NOT ON *MY* TIME YOU DON'T! But speaking of chisels - perhaps the unions could meet the capitalists halfway, negotiating half-pay for crapper time provided the fellow who decapitated Maggie Thatcher's statute gets amnesty. (Bit of UK thread cross-referencing, here. :)

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: The Pooka
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:39 PM

Right on, Bee-Dub! Hell, piss on THEM!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: vindelis
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 07:37 PM

I believe that it may still be legal for pregnant ladies to relieve themselves in the street. Does this law extend to work premises as well? Slight Health and Safety problem me thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:37 PM

I hope none of these poor workers are in the Food Services industry.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: curmudgeon
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:48 PM

Foreman O'Rourke by Matt McGinn!

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: The Pooka
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:35 PM

Ha! Yeah!! / And, perhaps a latter-day white-collar twist on "They're Movin' Father's Grave To Build A Sewer"?...no more the late lamented Da' who never was a quitter, but now it's the tightarsed Bossman, hisself -

And until the job's complete
He'll guard that privvy seat
An' he'll only let 'em shit when he'll allow...

(If yez value yer life, don't join, by Christ, with McAlpine's Fusiliers :)

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:45 PM

Colostomy bags mandantory for a job?

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: GUEST,Wordless Woman
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

There are a few chicken processing plants in the US whose management prohibits or severely restricts its hourly workers from access to toilet facilities. The last one I read of – sometime in the autumn – was named in the newspaper and it didn't shame them. Workers were reportedly wearing adult diapers to avoid (no pun intended) soiling themselves. Tragic little story that should never have needed to be told.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: open mike
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:45 PM

utah phillips has a great story involving--let's see now how does it go?
a customer in a restaurant dropped their spoon on the floor and the waiter replaced it with one he carried in his pocket. The customer noticed a string by the waiter's belt and asked what it was for. The
waiters who in order to save a minute, tied a string around their penis so they would take less time in the toilet, and pull it out of their pants quickly, and the spoon in the back pocket, that was for putting it back in their pants....probably a better way to tell it, better timing for the punch line, but the story went something like that...

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:49 PM

Hm. God bless the Efficiency Experts, eh open mike? Ha. I've heard of a silver spoon in the *mouth*, but my goodness!

The Reuters story is funny but also maddening, albeit on a non-catastrophic level (which I think we could use, these days). I'm loathe to believe there could be *many* employers who engage in such ridiculous cheapo practices, but one seems one too many.

I work under union contract & proud of it, in a US state with fairly progressive labor laws. Our contract is silent on bathroom breaks as such & I'd be surprised, though I don't know for sure, if the laws address the matter directly. DON'T NEED TO. *Shouldn't* need to, anyway. You go to the can, you go, that's all. Nobody questions it; wouldn't occur to anyone. Absurd. As the UK TUC campaign says: "Gotta Go!" But NEEDING to have the campaign: Jeez! In this day & age!

Oh well. / I can see time-and-pay issues over things like alleged sick-leave abuse & so forth. But, how could anyone abuse himself in the stall? Um let me rephrase that. :)

Cheers
Pook

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: JudeL
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:55 PM

It's unfortunately getting to be all too common in certain types of work such as call centers, where employees are effectively being reduced to the level of a child asking "please may I go to the toilet" and being told no you have to wait until your official break.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 03:12 AM

It is still legal for ladies to squat in the street if there are no facilities available, after shouting 'need!'. They should really be behind the nearside wheel of a Hackney cab but there we go....

The legislation is to try and reduce time wasted in the bathroom, as not everyone goes there to 'perform', but to skive away from other duties - I know, we have the supreme 'need to piss artist' in our office. Any time he's on phone duty, his bladder is suddenly a quarter the size and he's up and down to the bogs every 20 minutes or so.

Call centres are the bane of all Trade Unionist's lives and yes, there are places where you literally do need to ask permission and are made to wait. There is a health issue over this, and hopefully that will prevail. When all their work force go off sick with cystitis and other urinary tract infections, maybe they'll see sense.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:05 AM

Perhaps my old mate Dave Diamond summed up Liz's comments nicely in his song Skiving - mind you it doesn't confine the practice to "the workers" only.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:09 AM

I've read this thread with interest. But with regard to the original Reuters report,
I think someone's taking the piss!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:14 AM

Piss on 'em..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:27 AM

There are two sides to this story. I once had several employees who spent on average twho hours a day in the loo..15 or 20 minutes at a time. When I spoke to them about it they called the Union..the Union called the press and I was labelled as a bad employer. I finally had to hire another employee to pick up the Loo time. This cost me money and it also cost me in terms of my reputation. Also, those employees who worked fro me and did not spend enormous amounts of time away from
their desks resented those who put such a workload on the entire operation. So before you all go off half cocked...find out about the other side of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:30 AM

Half cocked? A lot of guys couldn't affoed to have any less. Half cocked and they'd piss all over their pants! (but your point is valid)

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:15 AM

Good to hear from the employer/supervisory class! Yeah I figured there were 2 sides (at least) to it -- aren't there always. The evidence is anecdotal of course, but still, Thanks! / And, thanks Dave for that "Skiving". Wonderful! :)

I would suggest, though, that a reasonable deterrent to skiving by (unfunnily but realistically) the few, is NOT the constriction of, nor the docking of wages for, the legitimate utilization of needed break-time by the many -- by ALL, in fact. If a minority of employees (or bosses, for that matter) are stealing stationery, pencils & paper clips & hoarding them at home --- do we therefore institute a requirement that everybody shall buy their own office supplies?
******************************
And now, to the the most important issue. Mr. 'Spaw sir: O SO IT'S 'ARF-COCKED IZZIT!!! Tykes wan ter know wan, as me ol' gaffer always said....But you still haven't answered my question above, re temporal self-abuse in the Loo. Give us a Head Up wouldyez: can that be sustained on half-wages? Tuppence a bag... :)

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:33 AM

Pooka; I think you have sort of missed the point. The very problem of penalizing the guilty is what this problem is about. Unions needs to educate memebers that it is not the job of Labour Unions to defend stealing from the employer. As long as Unions defends this behaviour it will continue. Have you ever tried to give the sac to a Unionized employee.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:43 AM

GUEST, no; but my CEO -- the Governor of the Great State of Connecticut, USA -- has recently sacked 3,000 of us & he wants more; and it's nothing to do with Pee, though it does pertain to his possession of Shite for brains. You'll forgive me if I'm a Wee (pardon the expression) bit prejudiced at the moment. // The notion that you can't fire a union worker is a myth. It can be somewhat difficult, yes, due to the odd concepts of Rights & Due Process & Just Cause. But, competent managers can do it. If it's justified.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:52 AM

I am aware of the concept of just cause and I agree with it entirely. I feel that two hours(on average) a day in the loo IS just cause. However, I still subsidize these employees and they have so poisoned the atmosphere in the workplace that even the union rep is getting fed
up and I am now seriously thinking of shutting down. I have only a few dozen staff but if ever I change businesses I will never hire unionized employees again. I have worked very hard to run this small business and a handful of people are ruining it for me and for my other employees. So, no I have had it with Unions who seem to believe more in a right to salary than in a right to work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:43 AM

Well, very sorry for your bad experience & I sympathize. We all know the type of course; you get some in each & every walk of life. / But I think the key is, just as you say, it's "a handful of people". Having BEEN a Union steward myself, believe me I know what you mean about even the Union rep getting fed up with the sort. But I also know that there usually ARE ways, as there should be, in a union shop to remove folks who wilfully refuse to perform and reject all efforts at counselling, remediation, etc. And the union's "duty of fair representation" does not entitle nor empower it to forever block such action. // Anyway -- you make good & valid points. Best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

Well, I do appreciate all the comments. I hope this all gets sorted for the sake of my employees who are hard working and honest. You are right, it is just a few, but what miseries they are.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Grab
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:50 PM

Guest, you can fire anyone you want to, any time. You don't even have to give a reason. All you have to do is follow the correct process, fill in all the forms, give them the required notice (or pay in lieu), etc. Nothing else needed. The union can complain if they like, but they haven't a legal leg to stand on.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 01:24 PM

Actually, I am about to start that process as a last resort. Still the Union depicts me as an ogre who fires employees because they go to the loo. A no win situation really.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: GUEST,Wordless Woman
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:56 PM

Guest, I agree there are abusers. Years ago I worked in a customer service production-type environment. One woman in our unit goofed off most of the day, writing poetry, balancing her chequebook, etc. At the end of the day she would ask for help with her work and, since we weren't permitted to leave until all the work was completed, the supervisor would distribute it amongst the rest of us. As the union representative I told the supervisor that it was her responsibility to monitor the employee. Supervisor: "You should be glad to help your fellow worker." Me: "It seems to me that you're rewarding a poor performer by taking away her work and penalizing good workers by giving them more." Supervisor (whining) "I don't know what I can do." I've seen many instances of weak supervisors not correcting problem employees before their poor work habits become lifestyles. I have also known employees who have always looked for the easy way out. My sympathies to all of us hard working people.

Why yes, I am writing this on company time!

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: JudeL
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:58 PM

Some advice from me, a union rep, who believes in fair treatment for all, which includes defending the rest of the staff from having to do more than their fair share of work.

If as you say these 2 individuals are taking that amount of time on a regular basis to the extent that this is affecting the remainder of the workforce, then perhaps there are two possible options that could usefully be explored.

As a "responsible" employer you are of course "concerned " for the health and safety of your employees. If they are regularly taking this amount of time using the toilet perhaps it could be suggested that they have a health problem and need to see a doctor, if it is costing the amount that you imply them it might be financially worthwhile requesting them to see a "company" doctor. It would be irresponsible of you as their employer to expect them to work when they are not "fit" to do so. BTW it is a commonly held myth that people cannot be dismissed on the grounds of ill health, if an employee is unable to carry out their responsibilities of the job to the required standard because of health problems they can be given notice.

Also bearing in mind that a union rep is reponsible to all the union members in the workplace not one or two individuals. If the behaviour of these 2 is causing "stress" to the remaining workforce, and they can be encouraged to ask their union rep to raise this matter with you the employer, then it will of course be your duty to take steps to investigate the cause of the stress and deal with it.

This type of behaviour annoys me as it undermines the fight against bad employers and hurts the rest of the staff. I'm not surprised that the union rep is fed up with them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: GUEST,Red Ken
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:59 PM

Guest you are a sad bastard and worse employer. What are the conditions in your workplace where you have a handful of employees and enough of them want to spend 2 hours a day in the toilet rather than at their work stations. Usually small factories, offices, etc have an environment that brings people together and fosters a friendly atmosphere. If you can't do this you deserve to close and your employees can go to a better environment with one of your competitors. Hopefully they will all piss on your desk before leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:33 PM

some things never change.... in the 60's I led a walk out of lab technicians in the federal government (probably a first, given the cages that were rattled and the quick response we managed to obtain) when we were notified that we would only be permitted to pee at coffee breaks or during the lunch hour.

Our toilet facilities were in another building on a large airport and it seems some of the ladies in the lab were observed lighting up cigarettes on the long trek to the biffy and it was thought they might be making to journey to have a smoke, rather than to answer a call of nature.

We did managed to get the rule recinded immediately and toilets were installed in our building in short order. Guess they didn't like the idea of any further public attention or risk signs stating "Government employees barred from pissing in a pot and don't have a pot to piss in".

Subject: RE: BS: UK trade unionists seek fair pay for pee
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 10:42 AM

How terrible it is to spend hours everyday "skiving" or "goofing off" in the loo. Mind you, there's no problem about spending hours on Mudcat - ducks and runs to loo (at work !).