Distressing lyrics site

Subject: Distressing lyrics site
From: Abby Sale
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:24 PM

Always seeking good lyrics sites and noting that today is hotelier, Cesar Ritz' birthday (1850-1918) I thought I look up the words to "Puttin' on the Ritz."

I came across the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS) pages - part of HIH. I could only find the site referred to at Mudcat in a "Harvard Law" thread noting the US government's official sanctioning and disclaiming of copyright infringement there.

But the site is distressing to me and seems clearly an attempt by the Bush Government to extend the prostlytizing "religious-based initiative" and to control what's "good for" our children. This is the NIEHS Kids' Pages. (Not that the music only seems playable)

Note this is a Nat's Inst of Health site & its Environment division. Songs are justified by Everything in your environment may have some impact on your health. Yes, that even includes music -- music is an important part of our "environment".   Although NIEHS does not study the effects of music on the body, other scientists have studied its impact on physical and mental functions for many years. Most notably, music can measurably reduce stress and pain levels. ["Kids' Pages!] For example, research supported by the National Institute of Nursing Research recently found that listening to music reduced patients' pain levels following major abdominal surgery.... But there is another reason that NIEHS includes this sing-along section for it's visitors -- sing along activities are very educational. Please learn more about the educational purpose of the NIEHS Kids' Pages, and how we hope to help you build a healthier life and brighter future.

Ok. True or anecdotally inane, it's a rationale to provide Appropriate Songs - NIEHS has limited space and does not plan to include additional requests unless room becomes available and the song requested:

    * is appropriate for small children;
    * has a children's theme and/or an educational message;
    * is upbeat, inspirational, or motivational;
    * relates to the environment, health, science, or other educational subjects.

Ok. Maybe a government is obliged to promote patriotic values to ensure they don't get overthrown by a disgusted populace. But pushing religious values is not only against our Constitution (for good reason) but what we are currently having a War on Terror all about.

I really don't want the Bush people Inspiring my children.

BTW, although the site claims to work with Netscape, I can't get my up- to-date Netscape 7.01 to play the music. IE works easily. Another conspiracy here?

NIEHS site

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:43 PM

Hmmm. Looks like the site has been updated and improved, Abby. It has been around for quite a while, since way back into the Clinton Administration. It was rather amateur when I spend some time looking at it years ago. The spelling was awful (e.g., sing-along section for it's visitors ), and the lyrics moderately inaccurate. Still, I thought it was nice that they were trying.

But I think it's a holdover from the Clinton Administration, unless the Bushies have changed it radically.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:48 PM

Never say no when a client asks for something, even if it is the moon. You can always try, and anyhow there is plenty of time afterwards to explain that it was not possible. CEASAR RITZ

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

For lyric sources: (they are probably already in your collection)

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/p/puttingontheritz.html

http://www.nanuq.com/ashleigh/lyrics/p/puttin_on_the_ritz.html

http://lyrics.lipetsk.ru/search.html?id=385c31ca91a43ae1bcc83e9c285b457d512e3986

http://www.christmasherald.com/ritz.html (Danger Pop-Ups)

http://www.perfessorbill.com/index1.htm (Lyrics)

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:13 PM

Abby, I think it is important to keep an eye on such things, but I also think there are plenty of kids songs that I would classify as "inspirational" which have nothing to do with religion, i.e. the simple "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands.":-) Of course, maybe they would claim it was pagan and ban it as appropriate, eh?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:45 PM

What a load of brussels sprouts! What's wrong here? The NIH site contains many songs we used to sing in school many years ago. In the children's list, the only song that mentions God is "All God's Critters (Got a Place in the Choir)- which I hadn't thought of in years and was glad to see.
I am atheist, but I can't see anything overtly religious or proselytizing in the site. As American as apple pie (ignoring its origins in the British Isles and Europe). Of course, "Amazing Grace" is in the list of Favorites, but it belongs there, right along with the classic, "The Good Ship Lollypop."
"Big Rock Candy Mountain" is in the kids' list, complete with its "lakes of gin." (Attribution to the copyright held by McClintock (we are all victims of this copyright business- we elected these lawmakers). The tale of that Australian thief who drownded himself rather than face the law is in the kids' section. The Patriotic group has the usual, but also includes "O Canada" and "The Battle of New Orleans" (Driftwood lyrics- midi OK but a little too even).
Joe may be right about some of the attributions and info, but there is mis-information in Mudcat as well. We are all prone to Fakelore because research takes time and effort. Bad spelling is typical of many websites, actually not bad in the NIH material- in any case it is a lot better than that used by many MUDCAT correspondents (including myself if I don't check my four-finger typing).
I don't like some of the versions, but neither do I like some of the "folk-processed" stuff in the DT when the original was better and should be there.
All-in-all, not too bad of a job. I can't find any Bush taint here.
Abby Sale, go back to bed and try getting up on the other side.

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:05 PM

I'm with guest-Q on this. Don't toss the baby with the toxic runoff the way the world tossed socialism with totalitarianism and communism.

(Just some metaphors that don't work and I know that but they are still true and this is a nice place to say it-- ;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 09:52 PM

LaughKat - in Christian circles it is sung - If you've SAVED and you know it, clap your hands.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 10:01 PM

Check out "If You're Wearing Red---" at the NIH site. Can't get any more innocuous than that!

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: Abby Sale
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 10:50 PM

:) No, it's not whether 1 in 50 songs mention God; it's whether the government is determining what innocuous but inspirational songs should be recommended for our kids. Our club signed Staines for Orlando next month and I'll likely join in on "All God's Critters" ... It's not any individual song, either, it's the philosophy behind the types of songs selected.

I saw "What shall We Do with the Drunken Sailor" together with a long note that drinking may not be good for your health.

No, this isn't a suggested list of challenging or educational or enjoyable kids songs, it's a selection of what's "good" for them.

Oh, well.

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:17 PM

I'm not sure whether its the same (or a related) site, but I was cleaning out some stuff on my machine about a week ago and "canned" a post - for when I found a good place to put it. What I found looked like some very helpful aids for teachers, some general information on searching the web, and some new stuff on copyrights.

The kid's song thing you're discussing may be somewhere on the same site(?)

Following was prepared a couple of weeks ago:

Cleaning out my "Favorites" list, and checking out some "obscure" references, I found an apparent bundle of "goodies" that my be of interest to any of us who need better search abilities, and particularly to any who might use, or want to use, web resources in Teaching or Libraries.

ERIC Clearinghouse on Information and Technology, sponsored byr US Department of Education (http://www.ericit.org/index.shtml).

For the items that took me there, look in the left column under BOOKS, and click "ERIC Digests."

Of particular note are two digest articles under "2001 Digests:"
Uncovering the Hidden Web, Part I: Finding What the Search Engines Don't (PDF)
Uncovering the Hidden Web, Part II: Resources for Your Classroom (PDF)

A couple of year 2000 items may still be of use for K-12 teachers:
An Introduction to Internet Resources for K-12 Educators, Part I: Information Resources, Update 2000
An Introduction to Internet Resources for K-12 Educators, Part II: Question Answering, Electronic Discussion Groups, Newsgroups, Update 2000

I had to poke around a bit to find that "ERIC" stands for "Educational Resources Information Center (ERIC)."

This is a Federally funded (US) site, apparently with all materials prepared under government funding, so there are no restrictions on copying or reproducing anything (that I saw). The "IT Digests" are specifically declared as "In the Public Domain."

If this is the same site, perhaps some of the "upstairs" stuff I was into will help clarify what's being changed - or not????

John

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:34 PM

Of course, I meant it as Of course, maybe they would claim it was pagan and ban it as INappropriate, eh? Sorry.


Thanks for that insight, GoyleGarg.

kat

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 12:21 AM

Abby - it is nice to have you back....but sometimes ....it sure is easy to get you confused with the HarpyGirl.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 01:08 AM

ERIC is supported by the US Department of Education, but its format and content is put together by educators at Syracuse University, with the help of those at other universities. The comprehensive coverage of library science and information technology is important to North American teachers and librarians; the site acts as a forum for them as well. Note that all correspondence is directed to Syracuse University. Articles are accepted and published from University educators across the country. Students going into education also make use of the site and their thesis material is noted.

Personally, I believe any support from government agencies for music and music sites is desirable. Our musical selections are a personal choice. No one of us would make the same selection. The NIH and similar sites must satisfy the general public. Selections from "Blow the Candle Out," or the masses and motets of Thomas Tallis, are outside of their box. Either would kill it with the mainstream.

Subject: RE: Distressing lyrics site
From: Grab
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:12 AM

Many/most adults don't have memories that stretch to these songs. AFAIK, most parents have to learn the damn things themselves first! So if the current educational strategy is that sing-songs are a Good Thing (and as folk musicians, I guess we all agree with that one!) then parents will need some advice on what's appropriate. They can either go down the shops and buy some random tapes/CDs, not knowing what the songs on there are like, or they can get a head-start from something like that site.

Sure, it's an attempt to say what's good for kids. In the exact same way that 12/15/18 ratings on films are an attempt to say what's good for kids. I damn sure wouldn't rate "Pretty Polly" as a song to sing to kids, and even "Clementine" could be pushing it a bit for young/sensitive kids. Given the size of the list, they sure as hell aren't being overly restrictive about it - there's hundreds of songs on there. The philosophy seems to be simply that if you're having a sing-song with kids, you sing happy songs or songs which aren't going to upset them or teach them stuff they "don't need to know" (eg. "Eskimo Nell" ;-) Do you think that's a bad idea? If so, why?

I don't see any trace of religion, proselytising (sp?), etc in this site. As you (inadvertently) pointed out yourself in your first post, the criteria for accepting a song on the list do *not* include any religious elements. Is this still a basis for your objection? If so, why? and how? given that there is no religious influence in the list?

Graham.