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BS: Hart questions Irish Americans

maire-aine 23 Feb 03 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 23 Feb 03 - 01:28 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 03 - 01:41 PM
Michael S 23 Feb 03 - 01:46 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 03 - 02:30 PM
michaelr 23 Feb 03 - 02:30 PM
Michael S 23 Feb 03 - 02:35 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 03 - 02:52 PM
The Pooka 23 Feb 03 - 03:01 PM
GUEST 23 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM
Ebbie 23 Feb 03 - 04:16 PM
CarolC 23 Feb 03 - 04:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM
The Pooka 23 Feb 03 - 05:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 03 - 09:03 AM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,The Dreaded Guest 24 Feb 03 - 10:39 AM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 10:42 AM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 10:46 AM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 10:57 AM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 11:08 AM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 11:55 AM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 11:57 AM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 11:59 AM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 12:05 PM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 12:08 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 01:03 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 02:31 PM
The Pooka 24 Feb 03 - 08:23 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 09:41 PM
The Pooka 24 Feb 03 - 09:57 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 10:31 PM
CarolC 24 Feb 03 - 10:47 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 10:54 PM
The Pooka 24 Feb 03 - 11:21 PM
The Pooka 24 Feb 03 - 11:22 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 25 Feb 03 - 02:00 AM
Cluin 25 Feb 03 - 02:39 AM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 10:30 AM
The Pooka 25 Feb 03 - 12:17 PM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 25 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM
Frankham 25 Feb 03 - 02:39 PM
CarolC 25 Feb 03 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 26 Feb 03 - 02:39 AM
Forum Lurker 26 Feb 03 - 08:55 AM
GUEST 26 Feb 03 - 04:25 PM
GUEST 26 Feb 03 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 26 Feb 03 - 06:29 PM
Forum Lurker 27 Feb 03 - 12:20 AM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 27 Feb 03 - 01:21 AM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 27 Feb 03 - 02:06 AM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 27 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 27 Feb 03 - 10:10 PM
Forum Lurker 27 Feb 03 - 11:22 PM
The Pooka 28 Feb 03 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 28 Feb 03 - 10:17 PM
GUEST 01 Mar 03 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 01 Mar 03 - 11:01 AM
belfast 01 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM
Forum Lurker 01 Mar 03 - 12:05 PM
GUEST 01 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM
Forum Lurker 01 Mar 03 - 01:24 PM
GUEST 01 Mar 03 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 01 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM
The Pooka 01 Mar 03 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 01 Mar 03 - 11:32 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 02 Mar 03 - 02:00 AM
Hillheader 02 Mar 03 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 02 Mar 03 - 04:47 AM
Forum Lurker 02 Mar 03 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,historylessons 02 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,daft as a brush 02 Mar 03 - 02:31 PM
GUEST 02 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM
The Pooka 02 Mar 03 - 02:51 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 02 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM
Hillheader 02 Mar 03 - 05:54 PM
Forum Lurker 02 Mar 03 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 02 Mar 03 - 08:22 PM
Forum Lurker 02 Mar 03 - 11:06 PM
CarolC 03 Mar 03 - 12:18 AM
The Pooka 03 Mar 03 - 02:30 AM
Forum Lurker 03 Mar 03 - 08:43 AM
GUEST 03 Mar 03 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,trollfood 03 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 03 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM
The Pooka 03 Mar 03 - 08:32 PM
Forum Lurker 04 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 05 Mar 03 - 05:22 AM
Forum Lurker 05 Mar 03 - 09:05 AM
CarolC 05 Mar 03 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,WillyMcBoyne 06 Mar 03 - 02:34 AM
Forum Lurker 06 Mar 03 - 10:57 AM
CarolC 06 Mar 03 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Forum Lurker 06 Mar 03 - 02:00 PM
CarolC 06 Mar 03 - 02:05 PM

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Subject: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: maire-aine
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:13 PM

I just don't understand how Gary Hart can keep self-destructing like this..Article from Irish Echo


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:28 PM

He like a bunch of other so called Americans ough to look at their own families, who should check before they start throwing shit around...

Mr Hart's family is very likely descended from emigrants from ...da dahhhhh Westmeath Co Ireland...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:41 PM

Here are links to the transcript of his speech cited in the Irish Echo article:

http://www.garyhartnews.com/hart/writings/speeches/sf_02_10_2003.php

The quote the Irish Echo uses is the second to the last paragraph of the speech. There is no mention of any particular ethnic group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Michael S
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:46 PM

My very immediate reaction is that I don't find the quoted language terribly disturbing. However, when asked for specifics, the article suggests he engaged in some distressing group stereotyping.

However, those specifics are not in quotation marks. Did he say, "Those Irish and Cuban Americans do this." Or did he say, "I've seen this in the political dialogue of some Irish-Americans and some Cuban Americans, to cite two examples."

The former is worse than the latter. The former should be explained and, perhaps, an apology is due. Criticism of the latter could be the type of foolishness that forbids a politician from being candid and sophisticated.

I've admired Hart. I hope he didn't simply stereotype egregiously. They can step in it, can't they?

Peace,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Here is a link to the only other news organization I could find online who mentioned this speech.

New York Sun article on speech

Considering that both articles cite ABC News as the source of the Irish and Cuban remarks, without using quotation marks, as Michael S points out, I'm still looking for the actual story that the remarks were supposed made in at the ABC News website.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:30 PM

According to this article in the National Review (a far right American weekly news and opinion magazine), it was Jews that Hart targeted in his remarks at Stanford Law School:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-geraghty021403.asp


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:30 PM

That's a pretty intelligent, well-thought-out speech. I, too, would guess the sentence in question refers to Zionists in America. Of course, to say so openly would have caused Hart a shit storm of "anti-semitism" accusations. So he did a clumsy little dance when asked about it directly... oh well.

That doesn't change the fact that he has some right-on ideas about American policy and its role in the post-Cold War world.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Michael S
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:35 PM

Michaelr (known in my house as the other Michael), said this:

>That doesn't change the fact that he has some right-on ideas about American policy and its role in the post-Cold War world.

I agree wholeheartedly. Gary Hart hasn't a chance in a million of winning the Demo nomination, but he's one of the brighter, brighter bulbs out there, and I hope his ideas get heard in America's quadrennial silly season.

Peace,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:52 PM

I consider the source of the supposedly anti-Irish/Cuban remarks. The Irish Echo and New York Sun aren't exactly known for being paragons of journalistic integrity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 03:01 PM

maire-aine - Well, the Donna Rice syndrome won't do it any more (hell, today that might *gain* Gary some votes -- better taste than Clinton's, etc.:), so maybe he *had* to find a new way to self-destruct. In the coming Democratic primaries, perceived political incorrectness could be a very effective instrument of electoral suicide. Maybe he should dare the media to follow him around and see if they can find any evidence of ethnic prejudice. Hoo boy.

But yeah, much depends on what he actually said to ABC. I, too, like him & hope he didn't stereotype too egregiously. (Naturally, he should Be Like Me: stereotype *just enough*.) I can't believe he really thinks Irish-Americans have divided loyalties. Surely he must know we are always among the first patriots to stand up and be counted for the good old Red White and Green. *BLUE BLUE* yeh yeh that's it, Orange White & Blue...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

I believe michaelr's interpretation is dead on, and is corroborated by which journals picked this up 1) a fairly conservative New York based Irish American paper, and 2) a new (started publishing in 2002) right wing New York based paper with very strong ties to the pro-Israel lobby, and 3) one of the most conservative weekly magazines in the country.

Pretty much of a no-brainer. The story, which wasn't even a story, was picked up by right wing papers with strong ties to the pro-Israel lobby, and a fairly conservative Irish American paper always looking for conspiratorial evidence of anti-Irish bias in the US that doesn't exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 04:16 PM

A good speech. Can you imagine Dubya giving such a one? He not only wouldn't know how to pronounce the words, he wouldn't have a clue as to what it's about.


I don't know which group(s) Hart was thinking of when he implied that some Americans sometimes are torn between their loyalty to the 'old' country versus to the country they have adopted. I've worked as a tutor with a lot of immigrants who went on to become US citizens and they tend to be more vehemently 'patriotic' than we native borns, but I would imagine there is sometimes a conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 04:41 PM

It's a very good speach. And there is noting at all incorrect about this statement by Hart:

"We must not let our role in the world be dictated by ideologues with their special biases and agendas, by militarists who long for the clarity of Cold War confrontation, by think-tank theorists who grind their academic axes, or by Americans who too often find it hard to distinguish their loyalties to their original homelands from their loyalties to America and its national interests"

The last sentence can easily be applied to quite a few groups and nationalities of origin in the US, including those mentioned, as well as many others. He is talking about any group of people whose vision and/or agenda is more narrow than what is good for the country as a whole. He forgot to include industries with economic agendas in that paragraph, but that's about all, as far as I can see.

I like his world view. I would consider voting for him, if he demonstrated that he was more than just talk with regard to his vision. I'm guessing that there are some people who already know how much potential this man has to bring about change for good. That's why they're gunning for him so early in the game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM

I'd rather assume that, in the unlikely events of some kind of war between the USA and Ireland, one hell of a lot of Irish Americans wouldn't have much difficulty in deciding which side they were on, and it wouldn't be ...

As well it's not going to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 05:45 PM

McGrath LOL! good point there. / And yes, as well for Bertie & his Fianna Fail Axis of Evil that Dublin's not gonna Mess with Texas, for you're quite right about us Yankmicks: the Some who would then Come from a Land Beyond the Wave, would kick his Irish arse.

Gary Hart is all right. It IS a good speech, I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:03 AM

Interesting. I left the end of that penultimate sentence open to see which way people might jump. I'd suspect there'd be a fair number going the other way than The Pooka...

But maybe the Irish in America are a bit different from the rest of the Diaspora.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:19 AM

"But maybe the Irish in America are a bit different from the rest of the Diaspora."

Maybe it is your perception of the Diaspora that needs adjusting? I don't think most Irish Americans would give up life in the US or Canada to move to Ireland. And the premise of the US and Ireland being at war is just silly, so why work so hard to force a fit with the speech?

No, Hart was talking about the pro-Israel lobby. He was just using enough veiling with PC code to get away with it.

BTW, I have now reread all "The Note" archive at the ABC News website where this item is said by the above sources, to be taken from, and the quote isn't there. However, there is no entry in the archive yet for the week the speeches were made. I'll try to remember to keep checking back until it appears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:39 AM

Hart is the spokesman for the CFR. He is a stone-cold traitor to the interests of the U.S. He is for U.N. control of your lives and an 80-90% world population reduction, but you won't see HIM volunteering for euthenasia. Less than a month ago he said Dallas, Cleveland and Denver would be hit with smallpox. The Governor of Colorado just received the power to dig mass graves. If you believe or put any trust in ANYTHING Gary Hart says, do the U.S. a favor and go to the head of his population-reduction line. Maybe if enough of you volunteer to die, he'll call off the smallpox release.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:42 AM

Guest, there are too many groups who fit that description for it to be just about Jews. Take the Elian Gonzales debacle a few years ago. What a pain in the arse that situation was. And take the fact that I, as a citizen of the country that brags about being the "most freedom loving nation in the world", am forbidden from buying Cuban cigars or traveling to Cuba.

I can tell by the stance that the US has tended to take with regard to India and Pakistan, that the pro-India lobby must be putting a lot pressure on the US government, and giving them big headaches in the process, since both India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons.

And certainly, the pro-Zionist lobby is doing no less to secure preferential treatment for themselves than the Cuba lobby and the India lobby. All of these interests are more narrow than what is good for this country.

Making it just about Jews is small minded and wrong-headed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:46 AM

Look at the amount of US foreign aid given to Israel, as compared to the other nations you list, CarolC. That should tell you exactly who Hart meant if he actually made the comment being attributed to him, which none of the above journals has actually directly quoted. To think he would have made this statement and not meant the pro-Israel lobby in the US, defies logic.

I haven't used the word Zionist, BTW. I have used the term "pro-Israel". The term Zionist is too emotionally charged to be useful in this context, and it isn't really relevant anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:57 AM

I don't agree with you about the word Zionist. Many, many Jews are not Zionists. But it is the Zionist agenda of the Israeli government that causes problems.

As for whom Hart was talking about with that quote, it would be a waste of his breath for him to only be talking about Jews, or even Zionists, for that matter. Yes, Israel and the pro-Zionist lobby are a very big problem for any US government that might want to use a balanced approach in the middle east. But dispite appearances, the middle east is a very small part of the world. The headaches faced by politicians who have to deal with lobbies seeking preferential treatment for their countries of origin are huge, and to only address one lobby, however persistant, powerful, and influential it may be, is to not really address the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:08 AM

CarolC, you might want to have a look at these sites regarding US aid to Israel:


http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

http://www.wrmea.com/Washington-Report_org/www/backissues/0496/9604007.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2627561.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:23 AM

I'm very aware of what the US is giving to Israel in the form of financial and military aid. As well as what it has been doing for Israel at the UN with its vetoes. And what President Clinton did when he helped the Israeli government spread the Big Lie about what happened at Camp David. But I cringe just as much when I see what kinds of policies we implement in other parts of the world when one group of people uses the US government to help them leverage power over other groups or other countries. I cringe with discomfort and embarassment over our treatment of Cuba. I cringe with horror over our approach towards India and Pakistan.

I still hold that he was talking about any group who would try to use the US government to put forward an agenda that serves an interest that is narrower than what is good for the country as a whole. It's the practice that he is addressing as being something we need to stop, regardless of who is doing it. I am very sure he didn't mean 'Jews shouldn't do this, but it's ok for everyone else to do it'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:27 AM

CarolC, I think you misunderstand what Zionism actually means. A "Zionist agenda" would be an agenda which works toward establishing a Jewish homeland in Israel. As this has already occurred, there is no Zionism. The task is now to make that homeland safe and peaceful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM

CarolC, the problem isn't that Hart, apparently when questioned about to which country/ethnicity he was referring in his speech, said Irish and Cuban Americans. The problem is, he apparently didn't include Israel, the largest recipient of US foreign aid, and the most powerful ethnic lobby in the US, on the list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:55 AM

A "Zionist agenda" would be an agenda which works toward establishing a Jewish homeland in Israel.

It really is an agenda that works toward establishing a Jewish homeland in Eretz Israel. There's a big difference there.

CarolC, the problem isn't that Hart, apparently when questioned about to which country/ethnicity he was referring in his speech, said Irish and Cuban Americans.

My understanding, from what has been said earlier in this thread, is that we don't know for sure that he did say "Irish and Cuban Americans". Based on what I read in his speach, I tend to doubt that he is as stupid as people want to make him out to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:57 AM

Who do you think is trying to make Hart look stupid here? I see people saying they think the speech was a good one, and that he is a smart guy, so I'm puzzled by your response.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:59 AM

It looks to me like a lot of people are trying to make him look stupid. He must be pretty dangerous to the status quo to be recieving this much attention for something we don't even know whether or not he actually said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 12:05 PM

The point I have made in this thread is that his supposed remarks to ABC News' online "The Notes" hasn't surfaced, so we haven't even been able to verify that he actually said what is being attributed to him by Irish Echo, New York Sun, and National Review. As I also said, considering that I've only been able to come across any mention of his remarks in three pretty small medida sources, I wouldn't say any attention is being paid to the remarks at all in the mainstream and right wing media.

But having said that, Hart is still a Democrat with some foreign policy influence. As Dreaded Guest points out, he sits on the Council on Foreign Relations, and the speech was made to foreign relations audiences on the West Coast. Which is why I think he was referring to the pro-Israel lobby. There is a lot of pressure right now from centrist and moderate foreign policy think tanks, for the US to drastically cut it's funding to Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 12:08 PM

I'm glad to hear that, GUEST. But I still don't think he was referring only to what you call the pro-Israel lobby. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that, since neither of us is in a position to prove that the other is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 01:03 PM

Okey dokey, CarolC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 02:31 PM

I sort of see Hart's point. For many years some Irish Americans funded various terrorists groups in Ireland.They did seem to have some difficulty as to where loyalties ought to be. I think that this is not unusual for immigrants, understandably so. However, there are many groups who maintain loyalties not to countries but to specific political agendas. This can cause problems. I do not think his remarks were far off the mark. There must be a time when one accepts that being an American requires more than residency..it requires responsibility .


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:23 PM

Kevin McG, I don't yet see a whole lot of Yankee Doodle Diasporans jumping in here the other way, to stand back-to-back with Father Ahern at Vinegar Hill as the US Marines advance to the fatal conclave. (Terraced thousands died, shaking scythes at cruise missiles...)

But I must admit, I did miss the point of your subtly open-ended question. Having been away from the 'Cat for a while, I must have forgotten how clever you are (seriously). If I'm not more careful, this foreshadows my conviction on felonious forgettery charges, whereupon the penultimate sentence may be meted out. In any case, yes, the Irish-Americans *are* different. We have proportionately more Plastic Paddies than any other diaspora venue. Apart from Tipperary of course. Trust me on this. I oughta know. :)

More to come. (Fair warning!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:41 PM

CarolC, as I'm sure you've noticed, there IS a Jewish homeland in Eretz Yisrael. Zionism has fulfilled itself. There is no Zionist agenda today, anymore than there is a movement to free the American colonies from the control of England. Also, a person can be completely loyal to several countries, agendas, etc. Unless they come into conflict, one can in fact be pro-American, pro-Israel, and pro-Irish independence, all at the same time. Most agendas are not mutually exclusive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:57 PM

Dammit, Lurker, here I've been mentally composing a lengthy treatise on the matter, and now you've gone & summed me up (sussed me out??) in one crisp penultimate sentence: "One can in fact be pro-American, pro-Israel, and pro-Irish independence, all at the same time." Phooey.
C'est Moi.

WELL, I'll probably post it anyway....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:31 PM

Humble apologies. I, too, know the anguish of frustrated verbosity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:47 PM

My understanding of the term "Eretz Israel" is that it includes all of biblical Israel. Meaning that it includes the Palestinian Occupied Territories. Yes, Israel is in posession of those territories. From what I've read of the writings of Zionists throughout the history of Zionism, the intention is make all of what was biblical Israel (including the Palestinian Occupied Territories) a part of the Jewish State. I don't see that happening without a lot of bloodshed, and without putting Americans and Jews all over the world in a lot of danger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:54 PM

The intent of Zionism was to establish the homeland. Expanding its borders is a matter of Israeli foreign policy. While some of the early Zionists hoped to reach the borders of pre-Roman Israel, and while some of Israel's modern politicians may hope to do so, Zionism has fulfilled its purpose of creating the state of Israel, and thus does not exist. Eretz Yisrael means "the land of Israel." Any connotations of specific borders are just that: connotations which are not actually present in the phrase.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:21 PM

Ohhh, Forum Lurker. You may know the Anguish; but I haven't yet made the acquaintance of the Frustration. Just hang on a minute. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:22 PM

Setting aside Hart's as-yet-uncorroborated interview indictment of Cuban- and Irish-Americans, the relevant (if penultimate) sentence from his thoughtful speech, as previously noted, states (emphasis added):

"Americans who too often find it hard to distinguish their loyalties to **their original homelands** from their loyalties to America and its national interests..."

Now, a (hyper?)technical point regarding the Jews. I don't want to seem anti-semantic here, but I think Israel is "their original homeland" only in a very different sense -- deeper perhaps, but also vastly more remote & removed in time, generations, and interim locales -- than is Ireland mine, or Cuba (or indeed Spain) yours, or Japan the next fellow's, etc. I suspect that for American Jews Israel is less the country of origin than, theoretically and sometimes really, a country of destination, or destiny: "Next year in Jerusalem." If so, and *if* Hart *did* have the Jews in mind, then at least his phrase might have been more artfully drawn.

CarolC correctly notes that not all Jews are Zionists. Probably to eschew stating the obvious, she declines to add that many Gentiles ARE Zionists, in the post-1948 sense that they support the permanent existence of Israel as an explicitly Jewish state. I'm pleased to say that I am among these latter.

I also favor Palestinian human rights & eventual statehood --*nationhood* -- and I refuse to believe that this is forever irreconciliable with Zion. / But if I'm wrong - if the 2 turn should out to be indeed mutually exclusive & one must therefore Choose - then, unlike my goyish republican brotherhood (GRB) of Sinn Fein across the water, I shall (however sadly) choose Israel.

But I also support SF's declared *political* goal (their economics, Oy!) of a peacefully & democratically united 32-county Ireland. And yes, that being the "original homeland" of my ancestors (OKOK, 50% of them; which easily attains the Quota under *my* single-transferable-vote scheme :) -- well, there you have *my* personal 'divided loyalty'. And yes, I want my government to quietly facilitate that cause, all the while publicly maintaining that of course it's strictly an internal UK matter. :)

And since we're vetting the supposed Gary Hart exemplifications here, I'll also toss in --- *really* endangering my Mudcat standing (if any) now -- that I do not care for Papa Fidel at all, at all. Ohhh he's a wily charmer and all that, sure. Nice beard, man. But he's also a brutal tyrant who has screwed his country & his people. (Yeahyeah I know, Fulgencio Battista. Wasn't he worse? Y'know what? Bad as he was: No.) So, I guess I stand with the disloyal Cuban-Americans, too.

Look. We ALL have "divided loyalties", i.e., multiple tribal affiliations which will sometimes conflict. There it is. Which does not *necessarily* mean that we are unpatriotic. Indeed, most of us are not that, at all. / I meant it when I told McGrath, above, that of course I'd fight for the USA (USA! USA!) in his thought-experimental war between Washington & Dublin. (Granted, that's easy to say in so ridiculous an hypothesis.)

But y'know what else? I think one can credibly OBJECT, *in principle*, to divided **national** loyalties -- ONLY if one *believes* in the validity of the principle of UNDIVIDED national loyalty. Loyalty, presumably, to the Nation wherein one presently dwells.

E.g.: our Guest The Dreaded Guest moderately & judiciously declares that Gary Hart is, among other things, "...a stone-cold traitor to the interests of the U.S." Well. Without rising to that particular bait at the moment, I suggest this: I am allowed to have a serious *"loyalty"* problem with my fellow-citizens' sympathies for other nations -- ANY other nations, whether I like 'em or not -- ONLY if I *believe that it is possible* for there to be *such a thing* as "a stone-cold traitor to the interests of the U.S."

IOW, we can holler about divided or uncertain national loyalty -- provided we believe in the concept of national loyality.

I confess: I do believe in it. No, not in an unlimited no-matter-what, my-country-right-or-wrong sense -- but, to a very considerable degree still. Big presumption, albeit rebuttable, in favor of mine own tribe. And No, not only with regard to What America Could Become; but also as to What We Are Now.

Do you?

(CarolC: feel free to substitute Canada. Or Newfoundland. Especially Newfoundland. :)

-Pooka


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:00 AM

It is rarely noted in America that the millions of Ulster people (that is the protestant people of northern Ireland) who emigrated to the USA absorbed themselves into the country, unlike the Irish (catholics) whose loyalty is forever with their 'mother' country. Hence these revolting St Paddy Day parades. Nazi rallies under another name. Hey, they both celebrate ethnic purity, don't they?

As for Israel, any country that is founded on the ramblings of a sick and stupid book like the Old Testament is a country that is going to have problems. A state for the jews is a state that is racist by definition. A state should be for its citizens, regardless of race.

The Cubans of the USA are disgusting. The USA drove Castro into the arms of communisim. He wasn't even a commie when he came to power. Millions of people live in South America with no health system or government policies to look after them, but they do have death squads to murder and torture troublemakers.The trouble with Cuba is the american embargo, not its brave leader.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:39 AM

Give us a kiss!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:30 AM

I must admit, Pooka, that the idea of a person who isn't Jewish being a Zionist had not occurred to me.

As to your tribal loyalties, I will have to admit, also, that the only tribe to which I am completely loyal is the Human Race. That being the case, I don't stand by silently while any one group of people seeks domination over another group or commits ethnic cleansing of another group, if I am in a position to speak up. That especially goes for groups who do these things with my tax dollars, thus making me actively complicit.

As for national loyalty, mine isn't particularly strong, except that I believe in doing whatever is to the highest good of all concerned. That means everyone. And I do believe there is such a thing. But too many people are too focused on the small picture to see that reality.

Forum Lurker, I long ago realized that the best way for me to learn about subjects like the middle east, and in this case, Israel and Zionism, is to read and listen to arguments or debates between people who are in the same group but who hold different opinions on some things. So I've seen your argument, and I know that it is not universally held by either Israelis, Jews, or Zionists. Nevertheless, I'll bow to your use of the word for the purpose of this thread, since you're the one with whom I'm communicating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:17 PM

CarolC, well & truly said.

One notes in passing that Jews, Zionist and not, are among the groups who have had a bit of experience at being dominated and "ethnically cleansed". The modern-day success of the Zionist enterprise is of course a direct result of that. (Yes, and ironies therein abound today, I grant you.)

Anyway, since your study methods admirably include "...listen[ing] to arguments or debates between people who are in the same group but who hold different opinions...", surely you have learned a whole lot from the Jews! :) Others too of course (like we Irish, who fight among ourselves for want of other worthy opponents:); but Oy! you want 5 opinions, ask 3 Jews.

Why, they'd probably even disagree over the merits of Guest Battling McBoyne & his special interpretations of the Torah. Good points too there, King Willy. I'm sure the Orange Order would agree that "A state should be for its citizens, regardless of race." Must remember to boycott (you should pardon the expression) all those Nazi rallies on the 17th. Let's hear it for nice inclusive democratic diversity parades, like on the Twelfh. :)

Cheers & Peace


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:33 PM

surely you have learned a whole lot from the Jews!

Most definitely. Going all the way back to my childhood. One of the most important lessons I learned from the Jewish experience of the 20th century is that we should never allow ourselves to become complicit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM

Thank you, CarolC. I personally have never seen Zionism used in a context other than either the original founding of Israel or anti-Semitic ravings, but then I've never had anyone argue the Palestinian case as eloquently or rationally as you have, either.

McBoyne-the state of Israel was founded to keep ethnic, religious, or culturally Jewish people safe from oppression. The inclusion of Judaic principles was almost incidental to this task. I don't even want to try to address your misconceptions on the Irish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Frankham
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:39 PM

Most of Hart's speech is not offensive to me. But here's the part where I think he shoots himself in the foot.

"Americans who too often find it hard to distinguish their loyalties to their original homelands from their loyalties to America and its national interests"

IN my view, there would be no America if there weren't some loyalty to one's original homeland. America is made up of all kinds of nationalties, opinions, races, creeds etc. We are not monolithic Christian or anything else. Why shouldn't Americans have ties to their original homelands? Even political ties? Why do they need to distinguish anything?

OTOH now when someone sends money to the IRA or Jihad, is this in the best interest of America? That may be the real question he is asking?
When does that political interest become dangerous to America?

The question needed to be fleshed out because he may not be referring to the culture of other lands, but the political or religious stuff that brings airplanes into towers.

When does the work of Mossad or the CIA or Islamic Jihad become a threat not only to America but the rest of the world? I think that on reflection, this may be a fair question.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:53 PM

Thank you, Forum Lurker, for your kind words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:39 AM

Lurker. I can understand the desire of the Jewish people to have a safe haven from persicution, but the fact is that the land they chose already had people living there, i.e. the Palestinians. I wonder if jews would have so much sympathy if they had chosen Ireland to settle instead of Palestine. By the way, no-one has told me the difference between a Nazi rally and a St Paddy day's parade. Someone here mocked the 12th. Why? Are they so different?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 08:55 AM

A Saint Patrick's Day parade celebrates the rich, millenia-old cultural heritage of the Irish Catholics. It is a cultural and religious holiday, which is also used as an excuse by persons of all heritages to get drunk on cheap green beer. There isn't a single racist step in the whole parade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 04:25 PM

Just a lot of little homophobic steps in the NY parade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 04:28 PM

BTW Forum Lurker, in case you couldn't tell, "Willie McBoyne" is a troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 06:29 PM

I'm not a troll. I am drunk so I am in no fit state to answer, but tomorrow I will. The Paddy Day's Parade is as racist as a Klu Lux Clan rally. It's a wonder they don't do the goose step and burn a cross. They are that bad. America owes a lot more to the Ulstermen than it does the papist loving nazi supporting racists that march in the Paddy Day's parade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 12:20 AM

Nameless GUEST-People who troll with a name are better than those who troll without one.

McBoyne-Those "papists" of yours aren't the ones who invaded a multitude ofsovereign nations and enacted policies which ranged from oppression to attempted genocide on the populations. The British did, and your Ulstermen helped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 01:21 AM

I suppose you are talking about when we founded America, Canada, Australia, New Zeeland, civilised over half of the world, created the industrial revolution (thereby bringing in the modern world) and so on and so on. Ok, mistakes were made; but better that, and to admit to that, than to wallow in the self-pitting sloth that the Irish do. Never forget Ireland's support for the Nazi's during World War II! Britain fought against them, when they had no need to, and lost everything for it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 02:06 AM

"A Saint Patrick's Day parade celebrates the rich, millenia-old cultural heritage of the Irish Catholics. It is a cultural and religious holiday."

O come on. Who are you kidding. It is a celebration of race. Other people have as rich cultural heitage as the paddies but don't feel the need to march through foreign cities. The Paddy Day Rally is just an indication of the arrogance and the self-righteous conceit of the paddies. They are worse that the South African Boers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 02:06 PM

McBoyne-The Brits CONQUERED the Americas, Australia and New Zealand, as well as India and portions of Africa and China. They carried out discriminatory and often genocidal policies. The Industrial Revolution you seem so proud of did more damage to quality of life than any invention since the Neolithic. The Irish supported Germany during WWII because it was a shot at freedom, and because they couldn't see how the Nazis would be any worse than the British.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 10:10 PM

Forum Lurker. Please, get your facts right. Ireland was a republic during WWII, so why would they want a shot at freedom? Many Irishmen came over to Britain to fight the Nazies. But let us look at British rule in Ireland. If Britain was so oppressive, why did Irishmen have exactly -EXACTLY- the same rights as other British people? They voted politicians into the House of Commons. Would the Nazies allow that? Hardly. There was the famine, of course. Britain's fault, certainly; but the problem was one of absentee landlords who had become detached from the land. After the famine, the UK government took steps to make sure that it didn't happen again. Hardly the action of an oppressive state. It wont happen in my lifetime, but future generations of Irish historians will look upon Ireland's incorporaton into the UK state as being the golden age of Irish history and wax nostalgically about it. As for Brits charging into countries and practicing genocide...where did this happen? We very went into countries like India or parts of Africa and liberated it from tyranny. We introduced concepts such as justice, fairness, christianity...and countless other benefits too numerous to mention. As for the Industrial Revolution, it rescued us from being peasants scraping an existance from the land. I can see where you are coming from, Lurker, but don't let yourself be too influenced by Feinian papist spin doctors who are very successful in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:22 PM

Yeah, the Aborigines and Amerindians were really living in tyranny. I suppose that the Opium Wars were definitely a good thing for the Chinese, and the Boxer Rebellion wasn't at all warranted. Your eurocentrism is both amazing and appalling, McBoyne. You actually think that the Europeans invented justice and fairness? Admittedly, Christianity espouses more virtues than most animistic or polytheistic religions, but the imperialist Europeans practiced very few of them. The Industrial Revolution made the poor even more dependent on the rich than they already were. A farmer at least owns his land (unless it's been stolen from him and given to a colonist of the right nationality), and while it may underproduce, he won't have his livelihood and home stripped from him because the factory owner doesn't need him anymore and he can't make the rent. The British policies in Ireland might not have been as oppressive in the mid-20th as they had been earlier, but that doesn't mean that they were preferable to independence. And why do you think that the Irish will consider their period of subjugation a Golden Age? Not only was it marked by incredible amounts of factional violence, but their economy is actually improving markedly now, where Britain's is progressing at a rate slower than just about any other Western European nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 05:59 PM

"I'm not a troll. I am drunk so I am in no fit state to answer, but tomorrow I will." Troll, pole, flycast or dropline, begob McBoyne yer an honest man & to be commended for it. (Personally I think you're *always* in a fit statelet to answer, heh heh heh :)

"Someone here mocked the 12th. Why? Are they so different?" Well since I'm the Someone: yeah, they are. Because, the 12th-of-July Orange parades are much closer to your characterizations of St. Paddy's, than St. Paddy's ever was. Exclusionary, triumphalist, oppressive, racialist, etc. (*I* won't say "nazi", a term whose peerless horror is wrongfully diminished by its careless application to various & sundry latterday authoritarian pipsqueaks.) The St. Patrick's Day parades, by contrast, here in the U.S. nowadays are in fact quite ecumenical, multicultural & largely nonpolitical. EVERYBODY marches. On March 17 EVERYone claims to be Irish. //Yes, the 3/17 parades are significantly *silly*; seldom Saintly at all, at all; & have way too much Beer. The latter borders (you should pardon the expression:) on the idolatrous. But, of *your* charges, they are innocent. (Nameless Guest, re homophobic NYC parade: I agree. That needs to change. The time is gathering when it will. The policy now is, gays & lesbians can march, but not under their own banner. Why the Hell not?? That IS prejudice. Like other such, it will pass.)

McB. - "I wonder if jews would have so much sympathy if they had chosen Ireland to settle instead of Palestine." Well, they will tell you that it was not *they* Who chose their ancient homeland to which the Zionists sought return. Unlike your ancestors in the Plantation of Ulster, who claimed no divine instructions to drive the natives to Hell or to Connaught. (For which invasion No, I do not blame *you*.)

"Never forget Ireland's support for the Nazi's during World War II! Britain fought against them, when they had no need to..."
Had no NEED to??? Terror-bombing of London. Battle of Britain. Look into it. / Ireland did not support the Nazis. Ireland was neutral.
"Please, get your facts right. Ireland was a republic during WWII, so why would they want a shot at freedom?" Please, get your facts right. Eire proclaimed itself the Republic of Ireland under the Republic of Ireland Bill adopted by the Dáil in November 1948 and effective Easter Monday, April 18, 1948.

Look, Willy. Protestant Ulster Irishmen have indeed made huge contributions to civilization and to the world, just as you say. No question. So have those other, "green", Irish. Why denigrate & condemn? Can't we all get along?

Peace
Pooka


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 10:17 PM

Lurker, just because someone sticks feathers in their hair, puts on a loincloth, and dances around a phalic symbol doesn't mean that they are civilised. Just look at Australia and the USA today and compare them with how they were before colonisation. I cannot see how anyone could think that life use to be better bofore. As for industrialisation, it is the very best thing that happened to the human race. It released us from the drudgery of toiling on the fields, released us from famine, gave us a standard of life that our ancestors could not even dream of. It also liberated us from the landowner. There is a downside: pollution, and ...er, that's it really. It doesn't really pay to romanticise the past. As for Ireland having a standard of living that has improved since it broke away from the UK, look at how long Ireland has been independent. 1922! That was some time ago. The only reason the economy of Ireland is on the up is because the EU pumped money into it. It is not sustainable. It can not last. It is not based in any true economic improvement. Ireland, after 1922, didn't change much. Things carried on as normal. So much for living under British oppression.

Pooka. The St Paddy Day parades are racist, as racist, if you like, as the Orange Parades, but the Irish are more subtle. They claim they want everyone to join with them in their celebration. Why? It is to gain political leverage, to get sympathy for their "cause." I do really have to ask why should everyone want to be Irish? What is so special about them? Apart from a few from the Protestant Ascendency and the Ulster North, they have acheived little. They have slept walked through history mostly while others have strode. Oh yes, and Ireland had it's independence in 1922 even though it didn't declare itself as a republic until much later-how else could they have remained neutral. However, de Valeria left a light on at night to guide the German bombers. Shameful, but true.

As for the UK in WW11, Hitler wanted it to stay out of the war. He admirred the uk for its empire. That is why he allowed our troops to flee at Dunkirk. Despite, and thanks to Churchill, we fought on, and had out cities bombed, our people killed, and our Empire left in ruins, after which barbarisim returned to these unfortunate lands.

As for the Jews going into Palestine, they may have well have thought that God had told them to do it. My ancestors who came over to Ulster from Scotland probably thought the same. It's really no excuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 10:05 AM

The Orangemen have made "huge" contributions to civilization? Aren't we getting a little carried away here trying to be "two traditions" fair and equitable, perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:01 AM

Mr WillyMcBoyne, you said
"As for the Jews going into Palestine, they may have well have thought that God had told them to do it. My ancestors who
came over to Ulster from Scotland probably thought the same. It's really no excuse. "

Ok I am not pi**ed off at you, but nearly!
First of all, my country the USA was founded by Quakers-not UlsterIrish, to wit one William Penn, whose little church was FORCED to leave a greedy taxing and abusive United Kingdom - yoh country.

Later sick of the taxation and abuses by the same Kingdom of it's so called subjects - Americans of VARIOUS COLORS ie us folks here today- our brave founding fathers made war upon ye cowardly poms, and easily whupped yoh redasses all the way back into the sea!

For yoh ignorant bigheaded crime of insulting ME - read this.
The happiest of our noble Republican American Army, as we cut off redcoat heads, were our Catholic Irish recruits. Our best men were Americans NOT Protestant Usltermen or their offsprungs who had all run away to Canada, the same is true today.

The descendents of the same cowards in Canada sent money and arms to ye while a half a dozen Ira whupped yoh asses once again.

My kinfolks sailed to Erin from the Highlands and remained for 400 years until we finished what we started back hame. To wit kick the slimey lime-asses the hell out of Ireland, next stop guess where.
Oh BTW we are today - including Jewish, Prostestant and every darned color and creed you can think of plus some more. more varied than the a que waiting for the NY Metro; put it this way, you could be marchin one day with the OO, and the next yoh local reverend preacher could be shoving AN IRISH BAYONETTE through your cowardly slimey throat.

Sleep light scumbag.

For the rest o Muddie - I offer no apology since I am madder than tha possum in clothes drier.

IRISHScots


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: belfast
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM

However, de Valeria left a light on at night to guide the German bombers. Shameful, but true.???

And a Paddy's Day March is the same a Nazi Rally?

How do any of you dare contradict one who utters such wisdom?

Why do any of you bother?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 12:05 PM

McBoyne-The Aborigines are now constrained to the least fertile parts of the Australian desert, where they once occupied the fertile areas which Europeans kicked them off of. The Amerindians are still very poor in relation to their Caucasian neighbors, those of them that weren't wiped out by smallpox and war (around 98% of all Amerindian tribes were annihilated by the Europeans).

Industrialization has released the industrialized countries from famine, and drudgery now, having forced that burden squarely onto the rest of the world; during the Industrial Revolution, lifespans dropped by over a decade among the lower class. If you think their quality of life was wonderful, read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.

I'm not even going to try to challenge your assertions about the Irish, because it's clear that that's a subject your bigotry won't let you think rationally about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM

As I tried to point out to Forum Lurker way back when, the poster Guest, Willy McBoyne is a troll.   But apparently, Forum Lurker is in it for the wind-up factor, because this thread went south the minute "Willy McBoyne" made his first post to Mudcat. Which just so happened (not coincidentally I'm guessing) to this thread.

So which member do we suppose might be masquerading as Willy Boy here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 01:24 PM

GUEST 01/3/03/12:20-I'm doing this partly because I'm concerned that people might believe the crap McBoyne is spouting, and partly because I'm bored out of my wits. What exactly do you mean by "wind-up factor?" It's slang that I've never heard before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 01:41 PM

The fact that you are bored out of your wits is directly correlated to your messing with trolls. That is the wind up factor I'm talking about.

No one posting to this thread responded to the obvious troll from the poster using the name Willy McBoyne but you. It is easy in threads where the topic can be controversial, which includes anything to do with Ireland, the Irish, and the Irish diaspora(ns), to click on the guest's name, and it will show their posting history at Mudcat. I did that when Willy McBoyne originally appeared, making the claim that St. Patricks Day parades were morally equivalent with Nazi parades, and saw it was the first post to Mudcat under that name.

Hope this helps you identify the troll next time. It is always infinitely more wise to resist the impulse to reply to such trolls, out of boredom. That is the stuff that causes flame wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM

"Ok I am not pi**ed off at you..." Are you sure. Hehehe. Why are your fingers sore? Is it furious mastrubation?

There is a lot to answer here and believe me, I shall do my best....later. Watch this space.

However, I wont answer this.   "Oh BTW we are today - including Jewish, Prostestant and every darned color and creed you can think of plus some more. more varied than the a que waiting for the NY Metro; put it this way, you could be marchin one day with the OO, and the next yoh local reverend preacher could be shoving AN IRISH BAYONETTE through your cowardly slimey throat." I don't know what the hell you are talking about, wankfingers. You sound completly bonkers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 06:24 PM

Guest, actually I also responded to Good King Willy, in part because I liked his name (How do ye do, Private William McBoyne...nowait, that's not quite right...) Of course I hadn't Sussed him Out with the old clickie-checkie. Guess I just haven't got my mind right about Trolls yet, being rather a shallow-running Crankbait meself. But speaking of right minds, if Forum Lurker is simply *bored* out of his wits, what then is the underlying cause of poor Willy's witlessness? Ah well, that's a no-brainer. Now whatever do you mean about Flames Wars. Goodness. :)

Willy my man, if *you* had "liberated us from the landowner" you wouldn't have had to have the National Land League to put down your pride. With glorious consistency you remain resolutely wrong about the unmixed blessings of industrialism, as also about the Celtic Tiger, the parades, the underachieving papists, DeValera, Churchill's culpability for Hitler's imperialist aggressions (astonishing, that one, especially from a purported anti-fascist); and finally about Sorefingers's Complaint -- ya got the wrong member (so to speak) there; yer man (hint) has nae fingers, but paws. :) / Howsoever. To give the Divil his due, you got a point about the Jew & Presbyterian. Yes, your forefathers probably *did* believe that their expropriation of Ulster was divinely ordained. But let us let bygones be bygones. Don't worry, be happy: for the springtime it is coming, and you'll bloom once again someday. :)

Peace,
Queen McBrian na Boru


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:32 PM

Dear Troll, when the only intelligent company you can find is on the internet, I very very much doubt any 'Irish' Protestant would waste their time on ye, since you are socially challenged; the Scots, on the other hand, can do with ye what the hell they like for all I care. ( Praying they use it for target practice ....ha ha ha ha ha ha)

BTW Since I come here for music not to give twats like you free therapy, I have to go.

IRISHScots


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:00 AM

OK, I give up. Will someone tell me what the hell a troll is?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Hillheader
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:55 AM

It's just as well there will never be a war between Ireland and America. There is no where in Dublin big enough to hold the POW's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:47 AM

OK Sorefingers, let's get a few facts straight here. The idea that people like William Penn fled oppression and high taxation is ridiculous. America was thought of as part of the UK - Penn was an englishman for christsakes, and remained proud to be one for his whole life. Religious toloration was practiced in the UK (as it was in all Protestant countries) but many British subjects went to America to found colonies dedicated to their own religious beliefs. They were never persecuted in the UK, and while in America, Penn remained a loyal subject to the King. As for taxation, it was lower in America than in the UK, but tax was never burdomsome in the UK as you suggested. During the American War of Independance, which grew out of a series of arguments between the Mother country and the colony, most of the rebels remained loyal to the King, and had no wish to break free. Independence was not the issue. Taxation was, and not because it was burdomsome, but because it was levied without representation. Originally, they wanted to have representatives placed in the House of Commons; but quickly, the desire for independance grew. As for whipping our asses, Washington spent most of his campaigns running away from General Cornwallis. It wasn't until Lafayette (sent by the King of France to cause trouble for his enemy, the British) came along and turned the tide against the British that the Americans won.Washington loved freedom so much that he kept hundreds of slaves and persecuted the remaing loyalists to such an extent that they had to flee to Canada. Far from being a hero, he was a slave-owner and tyrant. Oh yes, and as soon as America got its independance, the taxes went up. By the way, there were very few Irish Catholic recruits. In fact, very few Irish Catholics. They didn't come swarming over until after the famine. Most of the soldiers were English and Scots. The American war of independance had a lot in common with the English Civil War. When Jefferson came over to England and looked over the ground where the Battle of Edgehill was fought, he said that this is where the first shot in the American War of Independance was fired. Although both Ireland and America fought the British, the two wars had nothing in common. One was, as I have said, a civil war between the British; the other was a nationalist war, typical of the sort that took place all over Europe at the time. Sorefingers, you are good at the hysterical insults but weak on the historical facts.

Pooka. The National Land League came about as a result of absentee landlords. Many of Ireland's problems came about because of its lack of Industrialisation, not because of it. You are confusing two issues, here. Revolutions come about because societies do not industrialise fast enough. Look at Russia. Oh, and where did you get the idea about "Churchill's culpability for Hitler's imperialist aggressions?" Incidentally, it is true about DeValeria leaving a light on at night to guide the Luftwaffe. Why he wasn't tried as a war criminal and then hung, defeats me.

I realised I haven't had time to answer everything, but I'm glad to clear up a few misconceptions. Oh yes, and Wankfinger, there is a bullet with your name (paid for by loyalists in Canada) on it coming your way, courtesy of the UDA. snigger, snigger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:44 PM

McBoyne-Religious toleration was practiced in all Protestant countries? You need to reread a good many of your history texts. The Church of England required all persons who did not attend C of E services to pay a tax. Earlier in England's history, Elizabethan times, Catholics were actually jailed for their allegiance to another sovereign (the Pope). Germany had a number of religious wars, in which the Protestants were just as rigid and vicious as their Catholic opponents.

You also somehow fail to place the blame for absentee landlords on the English policies which created them, and consider the Irish racist despite their incorporation of a considerable Spanish population. How you do this confuses me, but I'm sure you'll explain it in another log-winded, nonsensical rant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,historylessons
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:05 PM

Trolls are Internet Public Forum Pests.

First they innocently comment upon threads, next they con the moderators into accepting their false interest in a community.

After buiding trust with the regulars, they begin to attack other visitors, trolls and flamers as well. Occasionaly there will be a few really nasty ad hominem incidents before a warning has to be given.

Next having caused bad feelings among them, the troll then goes into high gear, and inserts irrelevant but higly insulting drivel into some unrelated thread such as this one.

Now having strung out the entire topic for several days of drivel, most of it emotive falsehood, eg G_d is dead, Jesus too had a Barmizvah, the Irish Catholics are Natzis, the Nazis were Jews, you - meaning the person they are working upon - are a ( insert some offensive language here ), the Orange Order are deranged - this is probably true, but nonetheless offensive -, the Ulsterscots are pigs, the Ulsterscots eat their babies if the dole check is late, the Canadians eat bearcrap in scarce times.. and so on.

Next having created a big war among otherwise happy Forum members, the troll aserts their leadership among a disturbed cyber community, and begin to offer solutions which on casual inspection appear reasonable, troll 'lets ignore (name), or 'don't repond to ( name ) WE etc', final scheme, usualy when the forum is already falling apart and the troll is already moving on -'WE should ban ( namES ) '

Things you should know about trolls

1
They have no interest in common with you, your forum etc, other than a preverted need for attention.
2
trolls are socialcriminals, but need some anonymous release, this can be felonious - thus you should be very careful how you deal with them.
3
trolls can often be a regular forum member, either bored or mad and 'acting out' a fantasy, eg catholic priest playing orange order member, police officer playing civilrights activist, redneck playing hippie etc.
4
trolls, above, are socialy challenged; thus in the flesh they are incapable of normal social interaction, eg they cannot laugh at normal humor, they cannot greet their normal social interactors - = you'd have to say 'hi' to them; trolls are sexual deviants often from misconceptions acquired in early childhood, ie they would abuse a partner IF they could find one. In short they are lost without human warmth or love, except for some outlet like the internet, you'd find them also on Amateur Radio, CB, college discussion groups - ie mailing lists. Final troll difficulties, they can't stop, they don't know where to look for help, they think YOU and I are like them, and lastly they don't know the meaning of the word 'enough'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,daft as a brush
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:31 PM

"Incidentally, it is true about DeValeria leaving a light on at night to guide the Luftwaffe. Why he wasn't tried as a war criminal and then hung, defeats me."

Such muddleheaded liberalism! Everyone knows that Devalera and Adolf Hitler were one and the same person which is why they were never seen in the same room together.

As for those Nazi rallies on March 17? Which one of has not stood horrified in some little village as the serried ranks sweep past with their blood-curdling chant,
"We are Irish, We are blest,
First the Jews and then the rest"

Thank God that there are still some who are prepared to resist this attempt at world domination! I would do it myself but I need to go and lie down in a darkened room.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:41 PM

I sense a creeping Mudcat Drumcreeism rearing it's head here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:51 PM

Davebhoy - HARHARHAR heehee verygood. O so it's Celtic Chutzpah izzit? lol...but don't worry; you can just lock both of those CIA special-ops lads in the loo upstairs at the GPO, while Boston's sons with their long-range guns sail in from the foggy dew. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM

Forum Lurker, yes, I blame the English. No-one denies it, not even the english. I wasn't blaming the Irish. However, the famine was the result of circumstances that the British Parliament tried to put right, and did so successfully for the most part. AS for religious toloration in religious countries, has everyone forgotten the Spanish Inquisition which tortured its way across Europe spurred by a blood thirsty and sadistic Catholic church? There were laws enacted against Catholics in Britain, but they were rarely enforced. Don't forget, Queen Elizabeth, that blessed Queen who ensured England would remain forever Protestant and therefore true in the eyes of God, was under the death sentence of the Pope.

I see no-one questions my facts about the American revolution. As for me being a troll..I like to see myself as bringing to this forum the truth. Rip away the facade of political correctness and the real face of fanaticism is revealed. Look at the history of the Catholic Church and weep. historylessons, you just want us to be polite to one another even at the cost of plain speaking. What is the point of a forum like this if you cannot speak your mind. I have not been rude to anyone. I do not call Catholics nazies. All I said was that DeValeria was a nazi supporter and that St Paddies Day parades are like nazi rallies, which to me is what they are. You can disagree but it is what I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Hillheader
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 05:54 PM

And Willyboy -- you seem to forget that the Great and Glorious King William the First was bankrolled by the Pope you seem to despise so much. How do you square that circle? Does the end justify the means?

The American Revolution and the 1916 Rebellion were borne out of the same cause, remove Britain from a land over which they had no right to exercise control --as Africa and the Indian sub-continent did latterly. Britain, France and company occupied then raped these countries before handing the back with re-defined cross-tribal borders which is/was the root cause of many of the disputes in Africa. Spain and Portugal did likewise in South America.

We need to revise our view of the Britain of old. The Empire was not a Land of Milk and Honey where a bountiful Britannia ruled with justice and care. We have been able to do so with the First World War which many now realise was a tragic waste of a generation.

I have said before here that history is not what you learn in school. It is what you choose to learn afterward when you have the maturity to evaluate it correctly. Until people can come out of there respective trenches and challenge themselves, there can be no progress in the North of Ireland.

That said, you have a right to your opinion and I will defend your entitlement to express it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 06:51 PM

The difference between a St. Paddy's Day parade and a Nazi rally is primarily that the Irish as a whole do not espouse the wholescale massacre of all non-Irish, but also that it has very little to do with ideology (at least in my experience). Nazi rallies are for people who hate everyone that isn't an Aryan, St. Paddy's Day parades are for people who think that beer tastes better with green food coloring in it.

I recall perfectly well what the Spanish Inquisition did; recall, however, that until the rise of Protestantism, spurring the formation of the Inquisition, Spain, not England, was the nation most tolerant of Jews and Muslims in Europe. England kicked its Jews out more times than anyone except France. Everyone has done bad things in the past, and it would be a very hard call to make who's done the worst.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 08:22 PM

Lurker, the Spanish Inquisition was set up to persicute the Jews under Isabella and Ferdinand (I think that is their names, anyway.) With the Moors being expelled (a good thing, by the way, it saved Spain from the barbarity of Islam) they then imposed Christianity on its population, including the Jews. Their was some doubt as to the sincerity of the Jews conversion and so the Inquisition was set up to check out on the Jews. Really, it was just an excuse to pick on the Jews. When the Protestant Reformation started sweeping across Europe, liberating Europe from the clutches of the Catholic Church (ie. superstition, ignorance, intolerance, etc.) the Inquisition was already in place and attention was diverted away from the Jews to the Protestants. England only ever kicked the Jews out once and that was Edwards I. I can't even find an Englishman to defend Edward I, who was, least we forget, a catholic. Oliver Cromwell let the Jews back in. A much maligned and misunderstood man is Ollie.I think that if we, the Scots and the English, let the Irish down is was that we did not convert them to the Protestant religion and save them from the superstitious and backwards ways. While the Protestant religion was liberating Europe and heralding in the Enlightenment, the Irish were still getting drunk, having babies, and being kept in the dark by their Priests....and if that doesn't bring Sorefinger back to this forum, then I have underestimated him. Hee Hee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:06 PM

McBoyne-Racist bigotry I can sometimes stand, but your religious ignorance and idiocy is just amazing. Lest we forget, Islam invented algebra and chemistry, and was almost single-handedly responsible for the preservation and discovery of knowledge which led to the Renaissance. The Christians, not the Muslims, were the barbaric ones. Your precious Anglican Church is as backward and superstitious as any other religion, and responsible for damn near as many atrocities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 12:18 AM

WillieMcBoyne, are you forgetting who was responsible for the witch hunts that were conducted in both England and in the colonies in North America?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 02:30 AM

Forum Lurker, "St. Paddy's Day parades are for people who think that beer tastes better with green food coloring in it." HAR HAR hoo hah LOL you got THAT right; whew! Excellent. / See, I TOLD yez them parades are multicultural, not exclusivist. Why, they *even* let in some of us *Yankmicks* -- that is, those of us whose Irishness is primarily of the petroleum-based variety. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 08:43 AM

In Minnesota, which does have a fair Irish population, most of the parade is Germans and Scandinavians enjoying themselves and getting drunk, and the Irish are mostly doing the same. The only cultural influence is that the pubs have more live Irish music than normal. It might be different in other states, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 10:08 AM

Maybe Joe or the clones could rename this thread to "Feed the Trolls Here".


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,trollfood
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM

EOM


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

It's the way that the Micks think that everyone should join in their day as if they are something special that makes me wanna vomit. They are nothing special. They are Europe's great mediocrity and they know it. Hey Wankfinger. One of these day's you and me are going to meet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: The Pooka
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 08:32 PM

FL - didn't know there were so many Irish Lutherans. :) In Connecticut, which has a large but unfair Irish-descended population, it's about the same. Except, the Queen-Maebs-for-a-Day are, in addition to Teutonic & Norse, Eye-talian, Polish, French-Canadian, Afro-American, & Hispanic. Plus a few English chaps of course. :) Also Jews, well-represented. Yes, it's a regular brownshirt beer-hall Putsch, I'm tellin' ye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 12:17 AM

McBoyne-Do you ever stop to think about what other people say, or do you simply search for tidbits that you can use in your racist, xenophobic rants? St. Patrick's Day in the U.S. is no more ethnically or ideologically significant than St. Valentine's Day, and in Ireland is as patriotic as President's Day. If you could see beyond your bigotry, you might realize that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:22 AM

Ho hum Islam. This forum really is for the unthnking and unquestioning. Granted, Islam did have some achievements, but generally it is an intolorant and ignorant tyranny imposed on the Middle East by the sword. It appeals to those who like the idea of lobbing people's arms and heads and who like to stone women to death, but for the most of Christendom, Islam is repellant. The misunderstood Crusades were an attempt to correct this aberation, but the ferocity and savagery of Islam was too much for us.

As for the protestants being responsible for witch hunts, this was true, but this was a superstitious left over from Cathothilism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:05 AM

McBoyne-Christianity was an intolerant and ignorant tyranny imposed by the sword for the majority of its lifetime. The Crusades were a political land-grab, nothing more. How else do you explain "Kill them all, and let God sort them out?" The fact is that Islam's inventions and preservation of information that the Christians destroyed in Europe were responsible for the Renaissance. The current state of Islam should no more be taken as its natural state than the state of the Catholic Church in the 14th century should be considered the standard of all Christian religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:24 PM

Mr. McBoyne, I don't think you know much about the witch hunts or the people who were responsible for them, or about any religions and their histories, or any peoples and their histories. But I think I would tend to agree with those who believe you're just trolling, so it doesn't really matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,WillyMcBoyne
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 02:34 AM

CarolC. It seems to me to be the easiest thing in the world to accuse someone of trolling when you cannot refute what is being said. If you go through my postings you will discover that I am clued up in history and know how to seperate myth from fact which does make me rather unique in this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 10:57 AM

McBoyne-If you are so "clued up" in history, why do continue making Anglochauvinistic claims that have no basis in reality, and failing to back them up when challenged? You have taken what your parents and Sunday school teachers taught you about history and never once even though about it, much less questioned it. If you're not a troll, then you're simply a sad specimen of blind bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:16 PM

Forum Lurker, the kind of behavior I'm looking at when I try to figure out who is trolling, is stuff like the fact that it took McBoyne several days to address my question about witch hunts, and the fact that he randomly threw that bit in about Islam. Also, I notice he's taking pot shots at the general population of this forum. I could be wrong about him being a troll, but I don't think so. I think he's just saying whatever he thinks will get a reaction out of people. He's probably not worth your time and energy. (But of course it's up to you whether or not you want to continue debating with him.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 02:00 PM

CarolC-I find it's better to vent my frustrations on an anonymous troll/bigot than on people I know or care about. I debate with him because I'm bored and irritated, not because I think he's worth it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hart questions Irish Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 02:05 PM

One thing to keep in mind when you vent your frustrations on trolls in the Mudcat, Forum Lurker. The reality of a forum like this one is that if you vent your frustrations here, even if they are directed at only one individual, it really does hurt the whole forum. Unfortunate but true. The best analogy I can come up with is that it's a bit like peeing in the drinking water.


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Mudcat time: 13 June 4:31 AM EDT

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