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WEIGHT discrimination in music world...

GUEST,soon to be a member... 24 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM
JedMarum 24 Feb 03 - 06:13 PM
Kudzuman 24 Feb 03 - 06:18 PM
SINSULL 24 Feb 03 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,Shiny 24 Feb 03 - 07:09 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 24 Feb 03 - 07:43 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 08:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 03 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,Les B. 24 Feb 03 - 08:53 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 24 Feb 03 - 09:11 PM
Ebbie 24 Feb 03 - 09:59 PM
Bill D 24 Feb 03 - 10:10 PM
Rick Fielding 24 Feb 03 - 10:42 PM
Amos 24 Feb 03 - 10:51 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 24 Feb 03 - 10:52 PM
Maryrrf 24 Feb 03 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 24 Feb 03 - 10:55 PM
Forum Lurker 24 Feb 03 - 10:57 PM
Amos 24 Feb 03 - 11:08 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 24 Feb 03 - 11:15 PM
Bill D 24 Feb 03 - 11:20 PM
Bill D 24 Feb 03 - 11:22 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 03 - 11:28 PM
mack/misophist 24 Feb 03 - 11:30 PM
Bev and Jerry 24 Feb 03 - 11:34 PM
Ebbie 24 Feb 03 - 11:41 PM
Forum Lurker 25 Feb 03 - 12:03 AM
Cluin 25 Feb 03 - 12:27 AM
mg 25 Feb 03 - 12:48 AM
Forum Lurker 25 Feb 03 - 12:55 AM
Bev and Jerry 25 Feb 03 - 01:01 AM
Neighmond 25 Feb 03 - 01:30 AM
Mark Cohen 25 Feb 03 - 03:03 AM
Lanfranc 25 Feb 03 - 04:05 AM
Steve Parkes 25 Feb 03 - 04:56 AM
Bat Goddess 25 Feb 03 - 07:40 AM
harvey andrews 25 Feb 03 - 08:54 AM
GUEST 25 Feb 03 - 09:14 AM
JennyO 25 Feb 03 - 09:17 AM
Deni-C 25 Feb 03 - 09:38 AM
Roger the Skiffler 25 Feb 03 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 25 Feb 03 - 10:17 AM
smallpiper 25 Feb 03 - 10:50 AM
mack/misophist 25 Feb 03 - 10:53 AM
wysiwyg 25 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM
Jim Colbert 25 Feb 03 - 10:57 AM
Steve Parkes 25 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM
Rick Fielding 25 Feb 03 - 11:34 AM
Abuwood 25 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 25 Feb 03 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Claire 25 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Feb 03 - 03:59 PM
JennyO 25 Feb 03 - 10:23 PM
Terry K 26 Feb 03 - 01:49 AM
MAG 26 Feb 03 - 11:37 AM
mg 26 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM
Kim C 26 Feb 03 - 12:04 PM
lloyd64 26 Feb 03 - 12:29 PM
AggieD 26 Feb 03 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,Ely 26 Feb 03 - 02:01 PM
Kim C 26 Feb 03 - 02:14 PM
Beccy 26 Feb 03 - 02:15 PM
Naemanson 26 Feb 03 - 03:16 PM
Kim C 26 Feb 03 - 03:46 PM
Dave Bryant 27 Feb 03 - 11:32 AM
AggieD 27 Feb 03 - 01:38 PM
Clinton Hammond 27 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM
Cluin 27 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM
Art Thieme 27 Feb 03 - 05:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 03 - 06:01 PM
harvey andrews 27 Feb 03 - 06:52 PM
harvey andrews 27 Feb 03 - 06:58 PM
GUEST 27 Feb 03 - 06:59 PM
Ebbie 27 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM
mg 27 Feb 03 - 08:46 PM
GUEST,Guest Guest Guest Guest wdyat24 27 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 03 - 09:50 PM
Forum Lurker 27 Feb 03 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,wdyat24 27 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM
Kudzuman 27 Feb 03 - 11:51 PM
rich-joy 28 Feb 03 - 04:48 AM
Kim C 28 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM
Art Thieme 28 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM
Alice 28 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM
mg 28 Feb 03 - 10:23 PM
Peg 01 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM
SINSULL 01 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM
GUEST 03 Mar 03 - 04:57 AM
Jeremiah McCaw 03 Mar 03 - 05:00 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM
Dave Bryant 03 Mar 03 - 05:36 AM
denise:^) 03 Mar 03 - 04:21 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 Mar 03 - 10:52 PM
AggieD 04 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM
denise:^) 04 Mar 03 - 07:54 AM
harvey andrews 04 Mar 03 - 08:12 AM
MairSea 04 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM
GUEST 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM
denise:^) 04 Mar 03 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM
GUEST 04 Mar 03 - 09:15 PM
curmudgeon 04 Mar 03 - 09:49 PM
denise:^) 05 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM
GUEST 05 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Claire 05 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Don Sadler 06 Mar 03 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Rosie Hardman 10 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM
Dave Bryant 10 Aug 04 - 11:39 AM
Red and White Rabbit 11 Aug 04 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Charmion at work 11 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Aug 04 - 05:54 PM
Steve Parkes 12 Aug 04 - 03:38 AM
Mrs.Duck 12 Aug 04 - 08:05 AM
GUEST 12 Aug 04 - 08:41 AM
matai 12 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM
GUEST,Observer 12 Aug 04 - 08:52 AM
Steve Parkes 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,a skinny folky 13 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,jcpie14 07 Jan 05 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,Scouse (Cookie's gone walkabout) 07 Jan 05 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,pauperback 23 Apr 17 - 02:25 PM
Jack Campin 23 Apr 17 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,a fat singer/songwriter 23 Apr 17 - 03:16 PM
BobL 24 Apr 17 - 03:03 AM
Thompson 24 Apr 17 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 24 Apr 17 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 24 Apr 17 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Bassman 25 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM
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Subject: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,soon to be a member...
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:00 PM

Has anyone ever been regarded coldly or treated as though you couldn't possibly be any good musically because you are overweight? I have... and I hate it. I percieve myself as very talented and am saddened that people get judged by their appearances, even in such a supposedly liberal field like the performance biz...


Any thoughts?

JoiningSoon


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:13 PM

sorry to hear it, but some people look for any reason to disregard others, still others have expectations set by initial appearance.

The good news for you is, you can blow 'em away when you get out your instrument. If not; they ain;t worth it, anyway!

Welcome to Mcat!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Kudzuman
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:18 PM

Sure! I myself and my wife are both hefty individuals and we get this look occasionally until we start to play and then most folks seem to forget it. I remember quite a few years back when Peter,Paul and Mary got back together for the first time in many years and an acquaintance had been able to go see them. All they said was,"Wow! Mary was really Fat!" Small minds is all I can say. Joel Mabus who is a magnificent guitarist and songwriter is a bit hefty himself. Who cares? If its good music, it's good and I'm sorry for the thin snobs.

Kudzuman
Go ahead and join the Mudcat!! It's painless and can be a source of great JOY!!!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:46 PM

Not by Mudcatters. Never!
Please note: about 50% are well endowed. And most have a sense of humor about it. Hear RIB's "Built For Comfort Not For Speed" and Kendall's "I Just Don't Look Good Naked Anymore" and you'll understand.

Welcome.
Mary


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Shiny
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:09 PM

I would say it's a bit presumptious of you to say that 50% of people are well endowed? I myself can't complain, but I don't like to boast... :)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:43 PM

Chuckle! People will jump at the chance to be judgemental these days, and the more perfect you are, the more people go out of their way, when it suits them. Too this... too that, wish your dog was like my cat... Too smug for me to hug You're nothing but conceit... Don't shrug you little bug, you'll never be complete. ttr


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:10 PM

I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this, and I might deserve some of it, but there's a very real difference between being "a bit hefty" and being obese. About 1 in 3 Americans is genuinely obese (I don't know the figures for other countries), and it poses serious health risks. It can, if fact, affect singing (lungpower) and instrumental music (manual dexterity). While it's certainly stupid for someone to assume you're a bad musician because you're overweight, I have little sympathy for people who have unhealthy eating and exercise habits, and don't take responsibility for their own physical condition.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:22 PM

Remember, it ain't over till the fat lady sings.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:53 PM

Just think of Mama Cass, Bessie Smith, Burl Ives, and all those opera singers. A bit of heft seems to help some people belt it out!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:11 PM

The only discrimination I'm ever subjected to is that of jealous people who won't associate with me because I'm perfect in every way. I'll tell ya, it's rough being Sean Connery, Albert Einstein and Tony Rice all rolled into one.

(INSERT BIG STUPID GRINNING GREEN SMILEY FACE HERE.)

Bruce


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:59 PM

Bee-dubya-ell, I'm overweight but perfect or not I would hesitate to say that I'm as big as THREE people. :)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:10 PM

we take all sizes here at Mudcat...weight is a personal matter, as is whether YOU are concerned about it health-wise. Music is a different category.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:42 PM

It's true though.....EVEN in non-judgmental folk music.

Do you remember when Alison Krause was first discovered? Nice little Bluegrass band. Then came the extreme weight loss and bizarre make-up. But......that's when Nashville noticed her and she started getting all that high profile work. You barely see her anymore. And it's not because the Dixie Chicks are better....but they ARE more glamorous.

If there's money involved, there's weight (and any other kind) discrimination.

But.....some have toughed through it!

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:51 PM

Actually I don't think I have ever read a fat post here, or heard a fat song from anyone on the 'Cat. Statistical anomaly? I don't _think_ so! :>)


A


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:52 PM

Since loosing 45 pounds...not only do I look and FEEL better...I now PERFORM better. (Not to mention the chicks now hit on me....not me on them.

Yes-...There is prejudice against weight...and IT IS Justified. Fat people lack stamina, patience, and self-discipline.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I have 20 more pounds to go...and after 12 months they still remain...but spring is coming and it will happen.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Maryrrf
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:53 PM

But don't you think that there is less discrimination where appearance/age etc. is concerned in the folk/traditional music world? I mean, it would be very very difficult to break into pop music nowadays if you are not young, glamorous and attractive. It might make things a little more difficult in the folk world but it wouldn't be impossible, would it? That reminds me of an incident several years ago. I was living in New Jersey and went to a Latin music street festival in Newark. A woman stood up to sing and I have to say she was quite overweight, middle aged and not very attractive, and she was wearing a tight flouncy dress that wasn't very flattering. But she had a gorgeous voice, put so much feeling into the music, and my lord but she could dance! In about 30 seconds she had the audience in the palm of her hand!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:55 PM

Like a "recovered alchy" I have no patience with the excuses. You are FAT because you WANT to be fat.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 10:57 PM

Maryrrf, I think a fair amount of it is just that folk music, being less mainstream, tends to care less about image and more about substance. When folk musicians turn out music videos, appearance matters.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:08 PM

Garg:

I am sure that was true for you. It is NOT true in all cases . There are several factors that can lead to obesity which have nothing to do with will power. It is also extremely uncompassionate to make such a bald and unscientific statement.

A


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:15 PM

"Uncompassionate"?????? Gargoyle?????? Naw!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:20 PM

I know people who could lose weight, and some who REALLY have a metabolism which makes it almost impossible. Surgery 'could' help in some cases, but that is expensive and not without risk. For centuries, fat was a survival factor...now that it is not, it will take awhile to be bred out of the species...like 10,000 years or so?


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:22 PM

(yes, I am aware that too much junk food and easy access to calories have pushed many individuals to levels that they would NOT have reached in days when exercise was how you GOT food!)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:28 PM

Only in the later harvesting age has fat been "an advantage."

It was the lean, mean, who took down the gazzeleen

CARBO's are NOT your friend


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:30 PM

A note to gargoyle: The combined Scandinavian Medical Associations did a study many years ago. At that time and place there was a large population of families that had lived in roughly the same area for centuries. They found that persistant obesity is hereditary, without doubt. Furthermore, recalcitrant obesity was most often found in the families that had always been subsistance farmers. In a very cold climate, it's a survival characteristic. Now go wash your mouth out with soap.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:34 PM

Bandwidth is not about fat musicians.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 11:41 PM

Ah ha! Now I know why gargoyle has a problem with empathy- he has never forgiven himself for being overweight. But never fear, when he has taken off those last 25 excess pounds, his whole persona will become very different. In fact, he will change his Mudcat name to 'Old Sweetness and Light'. I can hardly wait.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:03 AM

Now, I'm not a dietician or metabolic specialist, so if I'm wrong I apologize, but even if someone has glandular or other biochemical problems, shouldn't eating less drop their fat levels? If your metabolism is slow, that means you need fewer calories, but you can still cut your caloric intake under your usage, can't you? Basically what I'm asking is, while metabolic differences might make it harder to take off weight, is it really the case that one can be metabolically unable to reach a healthy weight without surgery?


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:27 AM

I've always found that good food and good music go together. There's usually an unmerciful fee-add at lots of jam sessions. Those who get invited to more of them will just naturally put on some pounds. And the Guinness (and other libations) doesn't exactly count as Slimfast.

Stick that in your bicycle shorts.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:48 AM

I think it is almost impossible for people to reach a good weight without good information and without being told all sorts of scare stories about what will happen if they eat correctly for their metabolic type. I think that is the problem behind the obesity/diabetes epidemic..they are pretty much one and the same and the diabetic process is the weight gaining process. And insulin is now considered by many medical anthropologist types to be for the purpose of putting on fat, rather than regulating blood sugar. There are all sort s of evolutionary theories combining with good medical and biochemical research to at least have the information out there..read Dr. Schwarzbein, Dr. Mary Enig..and the metabolic body typing diet book. Some people, and I am surely one, have to eat what others would consider a sinfully high amount of protein and fats...and I am not eating enough of them..when I do I lose weight...I am pretty much breaking even..of course you can eat all the green vegetables (except peas) and some other fiber vegetables plus certain amounts of fruits, grains, legumes etc. If you are overweight, please read one of these books, plus Dr. Bernsteins Diabetes Solution...get a glucose meter and test yourself...listen to your body...not to the Family Circle nutritionists who want you to eat grapes and pretzels in great abundance. If you need more protein and more fats (good fats..which seem to be olive oil, coconut oil, dairy fats especially butter and some nut oils) and you don't give your body that, it will go into this insulin cycle where you produce too much insulin, turn your calories into fat and get immune type disease, plus of course diabetes. Read the books. The information is out there.

So forum lurker, it would be best if you read these books before giving any more advice.

mg


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:55 AM

I never intended to give advice. Like I said, I'm hardly an expert. I was inquiring, and I think you've given me all the information I needed. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 01:01 AM

Gargoyle:

The reason chicks are hitting on you has nothing to do with your weight. It's due to your sparkling personality and your uncanny ability to say the right thing at the right time.

Sincerely,

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Neighmond
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 01:30 AM

Look at my picture on the picture page-

Chaz


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 03:03 AM

Israel Kamakawiwo'ole certainly wasn't thought less of a musician because of his size. But tipping the scales at over 700 pounds certainly had much to do with his dying at age 38. Wish I'd taken the opportunity to see him when he gave a concert in Hilo in '96.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Lanfranc
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:05 AM

Having been referred to by my Doctor as being "morbidly obese", and being a type 2 diabetic as well, I felt that something had to be done. So far in the past 12 months I have shed 70 pounds, primarily by reducing my beer intake to negligible levels, eschewing all junk food, most desserts, anything that contains more than 15gm of sugars per 100gm and switching to cooking with olive oil. At 6'4" tall, I could carry the weight better than most, but...

My problems could well be hereditary in nature, my mother, father, both grandfathers and one grandmother were similarly afflicted by both obesity and diabetes (and all but my mother and grandmother were dead before they were the age I am now!). Nonetheless, diet and exercise can help to mitigate them.

However, I have never been particularly aware that my size affected my reception as a singer and musician. I long ago accepted that the skinny, undernourished look was not achievable, and took heart from Burl Ives, Hamish Imlach, Luciano Pavarotti, Barry White et al.

I seldom had "chicks" falling at my feet, but I still get a good number of embraces from middle-aged ladies, which, at my time of life, is probably a more realistic expectation!

It is really all down to self image. Even now, I look at many of my contemporary friends who were lean and fit in their youth, played sport seriously and are now into hip replacements, knee operations and other painful procedures. We are all mortal, it's just the form that our mortality takes that differs.

"There are few pleasures in this life that it is worth forgoing for the sake of an extra six months in a nursing home!" (John Mortimer - "Rumpole of the Bailey")

Carpe diem

Alan


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:56 AM

Blame television! I don't think weight is a negative issue on UK tv today; inded, there have been some drama series where the good guys are all b-i-g. But I picked up on the US body semiology in tv and movies a long time ago. If there's a fat guy, he's thick: he's comic relief. If he's fat with a beard, he's a greedy bad guy. If he wears glasses he's a nerd (or an accountant) (If he's thin with a beard, he's a smart bad guy.) Remember the villain in "Jurassic Park"? A fat guy with a beard and glasses. Remember "Goonies"? The fat kid was greedy, cowardly, unreliable, treacherous; the fat bad guy let the other bad guys down.

Teevision influences attitudes: kids see the way people behave and start to belive that's "normal".

Steve


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 07:40 AM

I've never found a community as accepting of size as the folk community.

I'm truly a goddess-shaped woman and have found that size just doesn't seem to register on anyone's consciousness.

Linn


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: harvey andrews
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:54 AM

A most politically incorrect point no doubt but certainly pertinent to the "metabolism" arguement to which I don't subscribe. I agree with the arguement that eating less leads to losing weight. It's simple, as my uncle once pointed out to me "There were no overweight prisoners in Buchenwald" In prisoner of war camps those prisoners who came in overweight soon lost it when placed on the same diet as others. My uncle was on the notorious Burma Railway project of the Japanese. Those who survived were all skeletons.He had no time for the "I can't lose weight because.." apologists.
We can all lose weight if we wish by cutting our calorie intake. This is the only thing you need to know.Some of us may have a hereditary predisposition to store fat more easily than others. Therefore we should watch our intake even more closely.We can still be a healthy weight even though envying our friends who can eat the odd ice-cream and cake with no obvious problems.
It should have no effect on how your music is perceived, but unfortunately it does. I know a great female performer whose backside is unfortunately massive. If she looked like the usual idea of feminine pulchritude she'd be a major name. It's not fair, but it's life as we know it Jim.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:14 AM

Why is it politically incorrect to kill yourself with tobacco and it's ok to kill your yourself with a fork. I don't get the double standard here.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:17 AM

We'd better stay away from the "Fry me to the moon" thread! I could feel the pounds piling on just from reading it.

I agree with Batgoddess. I find the folk community as a whole very accepting of all shapes and sizes. A number of our well-known and loved local performers and occasional singers are of rather large proportions, myself included. I have never noticed it affecting anyone's performance. That is just ridiculous.

I know somebody who is obsessed with her weight and appearance, who worries that she will be finished as a performer soon through being seen as middle-aged and fat. She is not even overweight! She blames this if she is not accepted for a festival, or uses it as an excuse for just about anything that goes wrong. It's pathetic to watch, and says more about her own insecurity than anything else. When she starts to complain to big ole me about it, that's when I draw the line.

I would like to lose some weight, though, and when I do, it will be a personal decision for the sake of my health, not in order to feel more accepted. I already have that acceptance in my community, I think, and I am very happy with it.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Deni-C
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:38 AM

There's weight descrimination and just about every other sort of discrimination everywhere. Don't let it get to you.

wE had a lady at our club who wouldn't stand at the front becuase of her weight. She sang from the back of the room, and none of the people could see her without twisting round. But when she opened her mouth, this gorgeous, full voice came out. I'm glad she didn't let her worries about weight stop her singing....

Radio is comfortable....no worries about appearance there....


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:44 AM

I'm too fat to be a pop star and too thin to be a folkie (but time is on my side)just old and decrepit enough for blues and jazz!

RtS


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:17 AM

SURVIVAL??? You are delusional!!!

The FACTS are clear -

Being overweight has significant implications for your health.

Obesity is asociated with the development of:

diabetis
high blood pressure (hypertension)
coronary heart disease
congestive heart failure
lung conditions

54 percent of all U.S. adults and 25 percent of the children are overweight.

Research has shown that even a modest reduction in weight 5 percent to 10 percent also can reduce other cardiovascular risk factors like high blood pressure, diabetes and elevated blood cholesterol.

Although medical conditions may play arole in obesity, for the majority of us obesity is the result of:

sedentary physical exercise
excess intake of calories

Obesity can be treated through:

lifestyle strategies
calorie restriction
increased physical activity

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: smallpiper
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:50 AM

I am overweight but am working on it. In order to loose the pounds I am actually having to eat more than normal - that is more in quantity and more of the right stuff - eating less is not necessarily the right solution.

I have never been discriminated against in the world of folk music.

Technically Gargoyle you are right but there is no need to be so smug about it - Plenty of people want to loose weight and telling them that they are lazy gits dosn't help them.

I'm glad that you have lost so much and best of luck with the remaining excess baggage - just don't contribute to anyone elses eh!

sincerely
A fat Bastard :-)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: mack/misophist
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:53 AM

I often assume too much background imformation and good will on the part of the people I'm writing to. It seems I've done it again. For centuries, peasants in cold climates starved through the winter, then did the heavy work of spring plowing and planting on an even skimpier diet than the one that got them through the winter. Under such conditions, a very slow metabolism is a strong survival factor. Get fat during the Spring and Fall and then starve it off.

When I was younger and stronger, I did heavy labour loading and unloading vans of magazines. For over 2 years I fasted 2 days a week, being careful not to over eat on the other days. When I quit, I had lost......0 pounds. That's the kind of metabolism I'm talking about. It's quite common. Now that obesity is a health hazard, induced arthritis has made exercize problematic. A 400-500 calory per day liquid diet might take off the extra pounds in a year or so; I know from past experience I can't do that. The point is that some of us are DESIGNED to be fat. And there are no simple alternatives.

PS My brother-in-law can't GAIN weight, unless it's muscle mass.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:56 AM

As a perfomer, you have to take responsibility for yourself and to put forward the best impression you can. Hold the phone-- I am not syaing, "Get skinny." What I AM saying is that you need to project self-confidence, even in the face of what may be true discrimination, and not victimhood. And if weight affects your needs as a performer (amounting to a disability), you just calmly say what you need. A lot of these issues are coming into visibility becuase our baby boomers are aging-- all of a suddent here is a need for mobility accommodation because there are quite a few creaky people around-- notice all the benches appearing in WalMart and more chairs in the department stores? Well, then, maybe you want to sit to perform, a lot of people do.

As for the rest that seems discriminatory, deal with it. There will still be more opportunities than obstacles, and your job as a folkie is not to educate/blame/shame people with weight discrimination issues. There is at least one discrimination being practiced against every human being on the planet, but it doesn't have to govern our lives. Just get gigs and play them and let reality stand with those people, for itself.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:57 AM

When ya stick to the facts like you've just listed, youre right on the money. But making a statement like "Fat people lack stamina, patience, and self-discipline." only pisses people off. I too worked hard and lost 45 pounds, but to say i was lacking patience or self-discipline when I was larger is simply not true. Maybe in your case it was, but don't make it a blanket statement. I don't agree at all that weight-related prejudice is justified. You're talking about a decision made for your health's sake, and that's great, but how does that make someone a better person as far as, say, interpersonal or business relationships or the ability to perform music well? If someone I love and care about has poor dietary habits I want them to take care of themselves, but in the end it's their decision, and it doesn't flavor my opinion of them one way or another.

A person can be skinny and still be quite an asshole, in my book.

Jim


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM

The only reason I don't get on with anyone is because of their attitiude. If I take a dislike for no obvious reason (and it happens sometimes) I make the effort to overcome it: it usually works.

Steve


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:34 AM

"FOLK MUSIC IS THE CLUB THAT ADMITS EVERYBODY" *

I have seen less blatant discrimination among the folk community than any group I've either been part of, or observed.

It's obviously reflected (to some folks' great consternation) in the make-up and editorial content of the The Mudcat Forum.

I could NEVER have been part of the "Rock community" when I was 15. Despite being a whizz-bang guitarist and decent singer, I simply wasn't "COOL". I was somewhat homely, about ten pounds overweight, and simply too shy to dance or move on stage at ALL! I WAS amazed that Roy Orbison had broken through, cuz he wuz REALLY dorky, but as we found out, the guy had ASTONISHING drive, and more weird talent to connect with lonely teen-agers that you could imagine.

I sure couldn't have become part of the COUNTRY MUSIC SCENE, 'cause next to THEIR politics, I was a rootin' tootin' COMMIE! These were the "Post McCarthy" times remember. I could play well enough to have Merle Travis say "nice job", but when I was around Country artists I kept my politics to myself.

There WAS a jazz scene in Montreal, but I was too young to get into bars, besides to this day my 'harmonic loves' tend to see anything 'post Bix' as "that weird new stuff". I LOVED listening to Bill Evans, Tristano, and Coltrane, but never on my best day did I have the chops to play it with skill. Besides....when I did ANY kind of dope, I'd just fall asleep.

BUT THE FOLK MUSIC COMMUNITY? I was welcomed, and felt part of something for the first time in my life! Nobody cared if I was shy, was still learning social skills, and WASN'T MAINSTREAM. Tons of overweight folks in folk music.....and ya know what? It must be nice to get together with that "song-circle" once a week and not get dumped on, like the person has, during the week. (a close relative has fought a weight battle all her life, and her stories are very sad, even if you take a hard line like Greg is doing)

Nope, all you need to belong to "The Folk Music Club" is A GOOD HEART. You can even be a Conservative (expect to be in the minority) like Jed and Doug, and .....YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO PLAY OR SING!! You can still be part of the scene by promoting shows running folk-clubs etc, or like my Gal Heather, being an "audience".

The weight discrinination may begin again when someone LEAVES the folk community, for a "Mainstream Music" career, but "THE MAINSTREAM" is another issue entirely. It's fuelled strictly by profits....as folkies we don't have much control over that. But.......some folk like Rita MacNeil, Cass Elliot and a few others have broken through....guess it takes a lotta guts and a lotta talent as well as blind luck.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Abuwood
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM

I am a large lady, most UK clothes shops don't sell my size. I used to be really shy when singing, always stood at the back of the choir or behind the PA speakers. I recently learned a couple of bold songs about fat ladies, (16 stone & Every Inch a Lady) and these usually go down very well which has vastly improved my personal confidence. So I think a lot of it is in your head. When you look around there are always people bigger and smaller than you - God made us all different it would be boring if we were all the same!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:29 PM

Self confidence is the key to charisma, and there is no weight disqualification for charisma... unless you (the performer) have already disqualified yourself... by being susceptible, and weight is just one of the easy targets that the mean and agressive will zero in on... just look at the tabloids. The 'stars' are 'perfect' in many ways, that's why they are there... and yet smut and attempted invective follows them everywhere, just a few steps behind the ardent admirers...

My point is, that tho the folk community is only slightly more judgemental than church in sunday's finest, There are still some stupid, snipy, competitive types... who will try to manipulate and castigate in order to 'remain on top'... actually that should read 'merely imagine the top', because there is no top... just us plains folk... ttr


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:42 PM

The original question is -have you felt slanted as a performer because of your weight. Since I started performing (12 or so years ago), I have regularly received comments about my weight, so I thought I would share them with you. I must be of that in between weight where people still think they can broach the subject.

When I get on stage, I want it to be all about the music. I take precautions to feel good about the way that I look so I dress to my advantage - usually upscale from the crowd, in a skirt or dress (to mask a bit of my rounder parts). When I perform, I completely forget that I am bigger than the average person, which is sometimes hard, since one of the things I do is appalachian clogging (talk about bounce). I generally feel really attractive and I choose to assume that others can feel my pleasure in being there.

Just how big am I? Give or take, I have weighed the same since high school, when I felt HUGE compared to my fellow class mates. Now, at 40, others have passed me by in the weight department and I am still muscular and stocky, pretty darn curvy, and not even close to skinny. I am of the opinion that you are what you are, and there is little you can do to change that if you eat reasonably and excercise reasonably, diet when need be, but then my body shape has stayed fairly stable throughout my life.

The comments,,,

A woman came up to me and told me that she found me inspiring because she never thought a woman of her size could enjoy clogging.

A man repeatedly told me I should work out becuase with my "big" arms, I could get really cut. (just last week again, if fact)

I have been told several times how "strong" my legs are and that they know someone else with big legs like me.

Someone yelled, "what kind of bra do you where" after I had clogged.


I sort of collect these gems!

Whatever your shape - someone is inspired by it... and someone thinks your amazing or beautiful - just because you have the guts to put your heart on the line and to do something special. Someone may think your fat... oh well, their loss.

Good luck and keep performing,

Claire


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 03:59 PM

People My Age

People my age have started looking gross
I cannot say all, and I shouldn't say most
I've seen 'em in the grocery and I've seen 'em up close
People my age have started looking gross

People my age are showing some wear
There's holes where their teeth was
And their heads have gone bare
Faces shrinking into fat
And as for the mirror
We won't be looking into that

People my age have started looking gross
Maybe not in Colorado or up the Silicon Coast
Back in North Ontario
I ate my poutine on toast
Those were my first steps
On the road to looking gross

People my age are looking overripe
Some are getting operations
To tighten up what ain't tight
What gravity's ruined
They try to fix with a knife
What's pleasant in the darkness
Is plain scary in the light

gross...

,-)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:23 PM

'Onya Claire. Keep on clogging!

Hey I just had an idea for the Silver Satin site - "Chubby Chic"!

Jenny


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Terry K
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:49 AM

I once read that heavy drinking is the worst thing for putting on weight, so I cut down dramatically, and nowadays I hardly ever read at all.

cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: MAG
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 11:37 AM

Er, Claire, what kind of bra keeps you in place for vigorous dancing? It sure ain't the athletic bras. -- MA


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: mg
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM

here is some information on metabolic body typing. If you need certain foods and don't get them, you will be at health risk. Just because someone else gets by with a different diet, doesn't mean you will. Hard for families to understand...but different family members might need different foods.

http://www.mercola.com/2003/feb/26/metabolic_typing.htm

I don't know what my perfect diet is. Very high protein, in fact the high purine proteins, high fats, high vegetables, almost no starches or sugars....I'm still not doing something right but I know how much more wrong I could be..I think I'm not eating often enough..also, if you are very hypoglycemic they say to try to get someone else to fix your meals..I find I did better when I ate lunch out almost every day since that is my worst time of the day.

mg


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 12:04 PM

Yep. Ditto what everyone else said about self-confidence. If your size doesn't bother you, it won't bother anyone else who matters.

Generally speaking, I have always been attracted to tall skinny men. I married one. But - here's a little-known secret. I think John Goodman is sexy. He has twinkly eyes, a sweet smile, a wonderful voice, and - guess what? - TONS of confidence and charisma. I saw a photo of him when he was a much younger, and smaller, actor - yes, he was good-looking, but it wasn't the same. Big John ROCKS!

Before I got married I dated a large man. Dave wasn't what I would call fat, really, but he was large. And devastatingly handsome.

I have a friend who writes incredibly witty songs and plays a mean clawhammer banjo. She's only about 4'8". I don't know exactly how tall she is because I never asked her, because I don't really care. I did overhear someone ask her once, though, and her answer was, "I think you can find something more interesting to ask me about."

Size shouldn't matter, but some people are inconsiderate. Don't let them bother you.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: lloyd64
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 12:29 PM

So Gargoyle is still around. I have not read a thread for over six months and what do I find, Gargoyle is still hanging around. I'm sorry to see that things never change.

Bye folks.

Lloyd 64


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: AggieD
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:26 PM

Having been overweight since a child, I am quite an expert on weight loss (or lack of it). I have been to see one of the top clinical dieticians in the UK & his opinion was that the only way for someone who has an inherited problem (both my parents come from families with obesity problems)is to diet for the whole of their lives. I know I have been there & done all the yo-yo diet bit & although I danced Morris, clog & folk for nearly 20 years still have a problem & I take a good walk every day. I have now been given a very low fat diet, which if stuck to will gradually lose weight, & believe me if you lose weight too fast, your body craves what it has missed & you soon lose heart & the weight just merrily piles back on.
Gargoyle, shame you are such a stupid ar*****e, just being supercilious about weight does no intelligent person any credit.
I have seen some fabulous performers, both thin & fat & I often wonder whether the thin ones don't look in need of a good meal. I think looking pasty & grey wrinkled & skinny is far more of a turn-off in a person, whether musician or not, than a bit of wobble.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Ely
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:01 PM

I think it's idiotic, and I agree that the folk scene is more accepting than a lot of others, especially at the utterly amateur level at which I participate. I went to a folk/rock/Americana festival last fall that included a full range of "fame", from strictly local to international stars, and all of the well-known women looked alike. Young, thin, and blonde. Half of them couldn't even sing that well. By far the best acts all weekend were comparatively odd-looking, unsexy, local talents. These were performers who were extremely talented, hard-working (I've seen their tour schedules), and appreciative, so it's not as though they don't deserve to be famous. Of course, there are other factors that contribute to fame (such as willingness to turn to pop music, but that's another set of complaints), but it does raise your eyebrows.

Personally, I don't care. I have a longstanding crush on a rockabilly musician from Austin who's built like Santa's grandson and has the voice of an angel.   

I've never been fat (I used to be "a little round", but my mother thankfully didn't tell me that until I'd lost 25 pounds), but Simon on "American Idol" would probably still tell me to lose weight if I wanted to be famous. On the other hand, I work for a veterinarian and I'd *love* to see Britney Spears try to lift an anaesthetized 80-pound golden retriever and carry it across the room to the surgery table.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:14 PM

Actually..... Britney works out every day. She probably could lift the dog. So could Madonna.

Shania Twain might be a better example. ;-)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Beccy
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:15 PM

People come in all shapes and sizes... I'm one of those string beans- always have been and probably always will be- I have to get pregnant to gain weight (I'm on the 9 month weight gain plan, right now...)

I have to say, I'd love to have a bit of meat on my bones. I think people who have some meat on 'em look healthy and gorgeous. Being heavy does not equal being slouch or being out of shape.

My little sister is heavier than I am and she can hike circles around me. She's a wunderkind.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Naemanson
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 03:16 PM

I'm 6'3" tall and weigh in at about 360 pounds. Very little of that is muscle. I have a big gut and it gets in my way all the time. I am tired of it but don't seem to be able to do anything about it.

I can tell you from experience that it helps to have a good attitude. When I am in a good place in my head there isn't a person on Earth who can shake me. That hasn't been the case lately but I'm getting back there.

Be that as it may, singing on stage is one of those places where you are easily cowed by others. You can't let that happen. You know you have talent and you know you can perform. Other people may have opinions but those are not yours and what they think can not hurt you unless you let it. Be yourself and know that you are pleasing the one person on Earth who really matters, you! The rest of us are secondary.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 03:46 PM

Being on stage is not unlike walking naked down the street! It is kinda scary up there. I guess we have to let what we do speak for itself.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:32 AM

Of course the folk scene is size-ist - the touble is that all these skinny people let the side down (we really must fatten up the likes of Raphie). Where would the folk scene have been without performers of the stature of Brenda Wooten, Jim Couza, Shirley Hart, Rosie Hardman etc.

I can remember a night with Cyril Tawney as the guest - when he was rather corpulent - the opposite of "The lean and unwashed Tiffy". Someone in the audience was heard to remark "If that belly was on a woman, I know what I'd say." Cyril retorted, "It was on a woman last night - what have you got to say lad ?"

Finally every time I go to a session of UK Mudcatters, I always seem to hear "Sixteen Stones" or the "Chocolate Song"........


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: AggieD
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 01:38 PM

Rosie Hardman was such a wonderful singer that she made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end & she never seemed to have a problem getting the fellas either. Anyone know where she is now?


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

"Being on stage is not unlike walking naked down the street!"


I'd rather be on stage

Heh


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM

Given up the other, have ye C?


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 05:28 PM

Men have it easier than women when large. Just a fact. We are "jolly", and women are, "Well, just look at her!!!"

It was little consolation to me though to realize, one sad day, that a Douglas Fir tree with my circuferance was 110 feet tall.

I never had much problem getting gigs.

On the very day I lost 100 lbs., we took a picture of me for an LP cover. The company needed a photo for the back of the album, so they took one from their file. The photo on the back was a hundred pounds heavier than the one on the front-----and I'm still glad that old album went out of print.

But I was always glad, if I was to be fat anyway, that I wasn't a woman.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 06:01 PM

I nominate this post

Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: harvey andrews - PM
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:54 AM


For an award for the most stupid post ever on the Mudcat. The thesis seems to be anyone can lose weight in a concentration camp. I would like to point out that massive amputations will get even faster results.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: harvey andrews
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 06:52 PM

Jack I was passing on the opinion of my uncle who was in one.He just pointed out the simple fact that everyone has a calorie intake below which they lose weight irrespective of "metabolism", genetics or anything else. The same applies to people who claim an inability to lose weight. Cut the calories enough and it goes! This is the only diet that works.Anything else is an excuse.A whole industry is earning millions from people who do not wish to acknowledge this simple fact. My uncle lived it, saw it, and had no time for these charlatans. He called them "crooks".
If that makes me the stupidest post on Mudcat..so be it.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: harvey andrews
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 06:58 PM

ps It seems reading the previous threads that people have got away again from the original question. Are we judged by appearances? In this society..YES! I'm overweight myself and though not too happy about it, don't wish to change my lifestyle enough to change that situation.Like an alcoholic, or a junkie. I suppose when and if it becomes a medical problem I will or I won't. I'm not being judgemental here, I'm just amazed at how gullible people are when faced with facts. My uncle faced them square on and drew conclusions.
Then again a fence post in Australia turns in to the Virgin Mary.
The human race is endlessly interesting, but also depressingly infuriating at times.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 06:59 PM

Well said, Harvey

What's the guesing that 'Jack the Sailor' is a greedy fat bastard?


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 07:23 PM

Harvey, it appears that the jury is still out on what finally causes weight gain and loss. Have you kept up on the confusing data coming out from the High Fat/Low Carb diets? Kind of like Quantum Physics- humankind evidently doesn't yet know it all. Humility befits us.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: mg
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 08:46 PM

I sort of agree that you will lose weight at some level of caloric intake. And for some people, depending on the ratio of carbs, proteins, fats, etc., it is horribly low number of calories. Change the ratio and things improve. A question to ask if you can provide enough energy to get out of bed, work, etc. There is serious endocrinology going on here, and anyone who has been ridiculed for saying they have a metabolic problem has met with fools.   It's all metabolic and has to do with insulin, insulin resistance etc...the whole process of diabetes. I know that I have a good case of insulin resistance...and I have yet to find the combination of foods that will allow me to lose weight and produce enough energy to get through a fairly cut-back lifestyle. And I am rarely hungry....but pretty low energy. So if a low-fat, low-protein diet doesn't work for you change your diet. Read the dreaded Dr. Atkins as well as Dr. Schwarzbein, Dr. Bernstein, the nurses' study, stuff coming out of Harvard by Dr. Willett and out of Stanford by Dr. ???? of syndrome X fame. mg


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Guest Guest Guest Guest wdyat24
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 09:46 PM

If you like to perform I'm sure your personality and talent will carry your weight. You gotta have faith in your mucical ability and forget about obsessing about your physical appearance. For gosh sakes!! Performance and talent shine through!!! You are not alone with feeling inadequate. Most superstars feel spasms of what you must be feeling...even me.

wdyat24


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 09:50 PM

Sorry Harvey, I shouldn't have been so glib.

Congrats to your uncle for surviving the ordeal. But what he went through in no way qualifies him to talk about the eating habits of overweight people.

There is no doubt that one can lose weight in a prison camp. Four ounces of rice a day and work until you drop or you are shot. But is that healthy? Does it have anything to do with willpower or discipline?   

I don't think much of the diet industry, but for some people things like Slimfast and Weight Watchers do work. Its not just about losing weight. Its about being healthy and happy with the lifestyle that you have. There are a lot of things which can be as detrimental to health as obesity, including eating disorders and unhealthy diets. Life is about making choices and people have the right to choose that next beer or that nice juicy stake over the long term consequences of consuming it.

GUEST,soon to be a member, If you are doing folk music then once people hear you play, your talent will be appreciated. Its up to you to get up and show people what you can do. If you want to be on "Americal Idol" start going to the gym because in pop music, how you look is often a bigger factor than talent.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 10:00 PM

It's quite true that anyone will lose weight on a starvation diet, and for some people, that may be the better option than remaining at their current weight. Unfortunately, most starvation diets also lack essential nutrients besides calories. If you're going to crash diet, at least make sure that you're getting all of your vitamins, minerals, and electrolytes. That'll lose the weight, but then you need to make sure it stays off. For that, you need to find the right diet, which, as Mary Garvey has said, may take a lot of doing.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,wdyat24
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 10:07 PM

Forget the diets, you will worrey yourself thin and never remember yourself. YOU ARE YOU! Go with it!!!...but Father I want to sing!!!

wdyat24


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Kudzuman
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:51 PM

Ever wonder why he calls himself Gargoyle? It's up for speculation of course. I see he has many intense ideas about this discussion. I guess obesity was the cause on Alan Watts death in his 50's while eating mostly rice and who was that great jogging guru who dropped dead of a heart attack while jogging, and shall I go on? We probably die more from the pollution and chemicals some (not myself) use daily like fabric softeners and margarine (ever look at the ingredients?) Then there is hairspray (spraying your head where the blood vessels are so close to the surface)which is like sealing your head with polyurethane. Hey, Garg, let's go out on the beach and tan our newly buff bodies so we can get skin cancer in a few years what say? Me? I'll just make some more music.

Kudzuman


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: rich-joy
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 04:48 AM

"The dreaded Dr Atkins", as he was termed, made sense to me and I did lose weight on his low-carb diet, but, it all got too hard and too expensive!! (also, I can't seem to live without some Jasmine rice and Lindt chocolate, perhaps more than occasionally!!!).
The highly lucrative "high carb processed food" industry that has benefited so much from "The Big FAT Scare" has a lot to answer for, regarding both America AND Australia's obesity problems (Oz is right behind the USA in the statistics).

Leslie Kenton's (UK) book "The BIOGENIC Food Combining Diet" also made sense and answered a lot of questions for me - VERY interesting and recommended - and explains well why other diets don't work for many people. It's definitely NOT as "simple" as some of the above posters have so intolerantly stated!!!

My favourite TV cooking shows are the British "Two Fat Ladies" and the sensual, curvy, Goddess of the kitchen, Nigella Lawson. These women love food - and LIFE!!! - something many of us can learn from!!

To get back to the thread, Folkies can be intolerant and judgemental about quite a number of things, but I've never found other people's weight to be one of them!!!

Cheers! R-J


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM

Well, now, here's the thing. There is no one magical Eating Plan that will work for everyone on the planet, simply because everyone is different. I tried low-fat, high-carb, almost-vegetarian once, and guess what happened? I gained 20 pounds. I was hungry all the time, so I ate all the time. Even though I was eating what was considered "good stuff," it wasn't the right good stuff for me, and I was actually eating more calories.

Once I switched to more lean proteins and less processed foods, I got rid of the 20 pounds and it hasn't come back. Mister and I rarely eat food out of a box anymore.

Slim-Fast is a crock. The only reason it works for some people is that if you follow their plan, you consume less calories. That's all. It's full of sugar. I compared the nutritional info from Slim-Fast and Fat-Free Nestle Quik, and it's pretty much the same, except for the vitamins. If you had a glass of Fat-Free Nestle Quik and a multivitamin on the side... well, there you go.

Everyone has to find what works for them. And don't think in terms of "dieting" - think in terms of lifestyle changes. If you "diet" and lose weight, it's probably going to come back when you go off the "diet." If you want to get in shape, you have to make choices and decisions and changes, and that's hard for some people.

Anyway..... no matter what your size, believe in yourself. Believe in your music, and in what you do. Like I said before, you'll have the respect and admiration of the people who matter. The others can just go have a Coke and a smile. :-)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM

During my lifetime I have gained and lost at least half a ton !!!

Now that I'm disabled and any amount of eating puts on weight because of lack of inability to exercise, I just go with the flow. What will be, will be. If it kills me quicker, so be it. I do watch cholesterol and fat intake--- medicate for it too. But my parental units and their surrogates have been dead for nearly 30 years. It was time for me get those voices out of my head telling me to get slim---get the lead out and all sorts of other tripe.   

All the best to you all no matter what size, shape or poundage.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Alice
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM

Interesting segment last night on the news... genetics and nutrition, each person is unique, and our genes show what nutrients/diet is ideal for us.

CBS NEWS / DIET FOR YOUR GENES

I look forward to the day not far away when a genetic test can tell each of us what our personal optimum diet would be.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: mg
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 10:23 PM

I think that day is essentially here..at least we know we should be looking in that direction. It gets into it in Metabolic Body Typing Diet or some such book..actually original research was by dentists I think..a guy in WInthrop, WA has a practice that does that..also subscribe to Dr. Mercola's free newsletter..he discusses it a lot..mercola.com

mg


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Peg
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM

I was of average weight growing up but not terribly active. I never felt very confident in phys ed class. Then I started jogging in high school and then in college added tennis, ballet, modern dance, fencing etc. I was a theatre major and it was all about the actor as body. I continued running (at the height I was running six miles a day, every day--sometimes it affected my menstrual periods because my body fat ratio was so low) and tended to eat healthy but not very consciously; I find that when I work out a lot my body craves healthier food and that eating crap when you have a very active lifestyle simply does not work very well. Your body needs a lot of potassium and protein, not to mention ready stores of glucose, when you're active. Our primitive ancestors would eat large amounts of protein after hunting and the stored glycogen could be converted to glucose during lean times. Modern man eats too often and too much and does not expend energy chasing down mastodons or elk.

I have worked in several professions which helped me overcome any form of stage fright and got me very used to being observed by all sorts of people: professional acting, art modelling, and exotic dancing. Seeing beautiful portraits or sculptures of yourself, or having men throw money at you and say how gorgeous you are, is a nice ego boost (that's not to glamorize that job too much, as it had its hair-raising moments as well!). But one must have confidence to begin to do this sort of thing in the first place. And that comes from within as much as it does from without. Not all that different from believing you are a good enough singer or musician to get up in front of people. It took me a few years to feel confidence as a singer, too and when I first started singing traditional music I knew I'd found a type of style that worked for me...but was not comfortable at first because it was still so new to me.

I had to give up running for a number of years after a succession of foot injuries. Coupled with the natural tendency to put on weight due to getting older and having a slightly slower metabolism, I have noticed I do feel a bit more self-conscious when performing on stage as a singer that I would have done years ago. I even sometimes feel this way when attending clothing-optional pagan gatherings, though compared to some I could be called downright skinny. But I think my own changing attitude has as much to do with aging (getting past the age where being sexy is the only thing that matters) as it does with having evolved from a size 5 to a size 10. I think the tendency to accept people exactly as they are is very similar in the pagan community as it is in the folk music community (and of course there is some overlap, although folk festivals do not tend to be clothing-optional! But I do find it strange when people assume this means pagans are "nudists" because that is really a completely different thing. I also have noticed that in the "nudist" community people tend to be leaner and more tanned).

I have noticed a tendency for the sort of discrimination mentioned in the rock/pop music world, too; women especially need to be gorgeous or at least thin to be seen as desirable. I have seen lead singers fired and replaced by skinnier (and sometimes younger) counterparts who weren't half the singers the first one was...merely because it's considered necessary these days to have a sexy front-person and any woman bigger than a twig is not considered sexy...at least a fit, more muscular aesthetic is now in vogue, but that's difficult to maintain, too. I saw a lot of unhealthy behavior aimed at weght control from dancers and athletes and actresses and strippers in my day...no thanks.

Video Killed the Radio Star, as the song says. I remember in the early days of MTV, there was a band that was popular in the alternative college radio circuit called Romeo Void. The singer was overweight but it didn't seem to matter...UNTIL the bands music videos were widely seen. Suddenly, everyone said "God, she's a dog!" This trend has only increased to the point where nowadays pop stars are built almost solely on physical image; men as well as women.

As for the advice given for weight loss, etc. I once read that the healthiest people who'd lived to ripe old age had one thing in common among their many habits (and some of them still smoked or drank daily, in moderation): they exercised every day and did soemthing to break a sweat and get their pulse up. I have found the best way to stay fit is to stay active. I can jog again now but my days of running six miles a day are probably gone. But hiking, walking, cross-country-skiiing, all are great exercise. I also fast occasionally, eating a fruit-only diet for 2-3 days. The Swedish swear by this. It rests the digestive organs and helps eliminate toxins in the body. It works best when the moon is waning. I also think, of all the "diet" systems discussed here, that food combining is the most sensible and the most adaptable to every human being (as has been pointed out, we are all different, and the high-protein or high-carb diet or all-grapefruit diet is effective for some but a disaster for others).

Best advice: get active if you're not, and don't eat processed foods.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

I hate it when gargoyle is right! Just had a check-up. My cholesterol is bordering medication levels and my blood pressure requires medication. Stress from the moving and total lack of exercise coupled with eating everything that is bad for me...

Just a year ago, I was on a high protein/no whites diet which led to a painless loss of 39 pounds. My cholesterol and blood pressure dropped dramatically. I dislike sweets and sugary treats but can't resist pizza and chips. Guess I will have to.

So even though I feel no weight discrimination at Mudcat (it is out there in the job market where I am seen as lazy before I even open my mouth) if I am going to live to 60 and once again tie my shoes without risking an embolism, I have to make better choices and get up from the computer occasionally.

Of course, my Dad is 89 and going strong despite similar health problems. Sorry for the thread drift.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:57 AM

"I have little sympathy for people who have unhealthy eating and exercise habits, and don't take responsibility for their own physical condition."

"There is prejudice against weight...and IT IS Justified. Fat people lack stamina, patience, and self-discipline"

"I have no patience with the excuses. You are FAT because you WANT to be fat."


I hardly know where to start. This is not intended to be a "flame", but I'm so angry, I could spit nails! Maybe start with Gargoyle, who quotes many basic facts, but sadly uses them to excuse or justify his judgmental attitude. Perhaps it would be better described as a pre-judgmental attitude?

Someone of large size gets up on stage to perform, and just by looking at their size you know all about them? Their motivation, or (assumed) lack thereof? The dues they've paid? Horseshit! How dare you write a person off that way?

I have no patience with such attitudes, or of any of the others quoted above. There's not so much difference between disregarding someone because of their weight (which has been described as "the last safe prejudice") as doing so because of the colour of their skin, religion, etc.

I'm heavily overweight, been fighting the damned battle all my life. Still fighting. With various diets and disciplines (don't get me started on my opinion of the diet industry!), probably lost 600 pounds off and on (literally) in my time. And I'm still heavily overweight. Biggest victory? I figure it's the day I simply decided to stop hating myself for it. Only took the first 30 years or so of my life to figure that out.

And I'm still here. And I'm still getting my little round self up on stage and sharing what I love with those who are willing to listen. And if some can't, or won't get around the appearance thing, guess what? It really is their problem, not mine.

Here endeth the rant!

Jeremiah


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:00 AM

Cookie reset. Glad I signed that last.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM

Pavarotti; Domingo;
And those who made no attempt to hide it: 'Chubby Checker' & Fats Domino
And, finally, Elvis


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:36 AM

Rosie Hardman who has written some wonderful songs has her own Website HERE. You can find many of her songs on it.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: denise:^)
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:21 PM

I think the folkies are probably less judgmental than most...

More fun weight facts:
~"talking about it" is much easier than actually LOSING WEIGHT, and every thin person knows 'just what you should do;'
~Art is right; it is much more acceptable for a man to be overweight than a woman.

Denise:^)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 10:52 PM

HHhhMMMmmmmm Less judgmental...or more in denial of the draw-backs?//

Wow! What a grand response….of guilty souls.

Don't get me wrong – once… I too….would have been defending my extra weight. And, would have been verbally violent also.

Sure, I played in France and then Germany, over a course of five years.

But, I would not have had the energy and drive to play in Peru, Ireland, Netherlands, England, and Germany in the past three years. IF the pounds were not lost…and I was in no better physical condition than the previous two tours.

The prejudice is against yourself… and your own sloth ….which prevents you from sharing your talent with the broadest (no pun) audience possible. Loathing yourself…..because you are fat….is a condition you CAN…. change!

It is NOT heredity!!!!

Fast Food Nation Eric Schlosser, Harper Collins Books, 2000, p 240-241.

p. 240 "More than half of all American adult and about one-quarter of all American children are now obese or overweight. Those proportions have soared during the last few decades, along with the consumption of fast food. The rate of obesity among American adults is twice as high today as it was in the early 1960's….

"Today about 44 million American adult are obese. An additional 6 million are "super-obese"; they weigh about a hundred pounds more than they should. No other nation in history has gotten so fat so fast.

"A recent study by half a dozen researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that the rate of American obesity was increasing in every state and among both sexes, regardless of age, race, or educational level. In 1991, only four states had obesity rates of 15 percent or high; today at least thirty-seven states do. " Rarely do chronic conditions such as obesity," the CDC scientists observed, "spread with the speed and dispersion characteristic of a communicable disease epidemic." Although the current rise in obesity has a number of complex causes, genetics is not one of them. The American gene pool has not changed radically in the past few decades. What has changed is the nation's way of eating and living. In simple terms when people eat more and move less, they get fat.">

p. 241 " The cost of America's obesity epidemic extends far beyond emotional pain and low self-esteem. Obesity is now second only to smoking as a cause of mortality in the United States."

COMMENTARY - by Gargoyle In recent travels, (my lifetime collection is over 20 different countries ) the only fat (and ugly) people I have observed have been in London. Most of the world is pretty damn-good-looking.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

To WYSIWYG: Sorry – No links ….no 'cut and paste'…..it is just like the Dummy Train thread….this is a transcription from my own collection of books.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: AggieD
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM

Oh dear Gargoyle you do have a very LARGE chip on your shoulder(no pun intended!!!!!).

Why then if obesity is not part of our inheritance - for some not all - are they now developing a way of altering the mutated fat gene to stop those people who have it, so that our bodies do not get overweight?

Yes I do agree that we can do something about our size & yes certain ways of losing weight agree with some & not with others, & yes there are lots of greedy people out there who never exercise & live on junk food, & for those people I have little sympathy. However there are still lots of people who struggle constantly with their weight, who are not lazy & eat a good diet.

There are also lots of people in the music world who are bigger than the norm, although the norm seems to be no bigger than a stick insect, which is far more unhealthy than being big.

At least if you are overweight you are less likely to get osteoporosis in later life, especially if you do exercise!

As for heart disease, high blood pressure etc. my doctor has admitted to me that the medical world do not actually know with 100% certainty that obesity solely brings on any of these problems, many of them are theories that research is trying to prove. I know of many thin people who have high blood pressure, heart problems, high cholestorol etc etc.

Enjoy your life, sing your heart out & be positive, you never know you might find other joys in life than eating.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: denise:^)
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 07:54 AM

Keep talking...that's always the easiest part!! (Especially in this forum of many words and few pictures...)

Denise:^)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: harvey andrews
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 08:12 AM

The only fat ( and ugly) people in London gargoyle? That's not been my experience. I saw some grotesque sights in North America! Are you sure you mean "Ugly" and not just "badly dressed"...which I concede.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: MairSea
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM

They say One who eavesdrops hears no good of themselves! I am fair, fat and fifties and was invited to sing at a folk club. I did my set, dressed appropriately, but on visiting the loo overheard two ladies from the audience who decided that I had a voice for radio - beautiful - but how dare I insult their eyes! They continued in this vein for quite a few minutes (seemed like hours) and I wish I could say that I came out and gave them a flea in their ear - I didn't I have just stopped singing! Thank you ladies for your 'well-deserved observations'. I'm afraid that I can vouch for the fact that the POp Idol type of criticism is alive and well in Folk circles. Pity really because if that is the case then the traditional song will truly die a death at the hands of the audience as well as the politicians!!!!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM

There is a difference between being generously proportioned and being FAT. Some people are built big, and they look right big. They don't look FAT, they look in proportion and their flesh is firm and they don't have obesity-type health problems. Funnily enough they don't get that much discrimination anyway, because they look just right the way they are.
There are people who are overweight due to pre-existing health problems, which mean that they store excess fat & can't get rid of it. They are very unlucky, and I imagine they get a lot of painful discrimation which they don't deserve.
BUT - there are a lot of FAT people out there who are out of proportion - whose bodies are having problems maintaining and carrying the extra weight - who are eating and drinking to excess and not expending that energy due to sedentary lifestyles. They tend to be the ones that frankly don't look their best. There are people who are in denial about their weight and therefore wear truly horribly innapropriate clothes. There are people who are unhappy about their weight - so they comfort eat - so they get fatter - etc etc. There are people who are making themselves needlessly unhealthy and sluggish. Those are the people who need a wake-up-call, but they don't want to hear the message - so they try to hide behind the FACT that "not everybody who is fat is fat through their own fault". Well that's true - but its also true that not everybody who is fat HAS to be fat or is happy being fat. Its also true that "not everybody who is fat is unhealthy, weak-willed or unattractive". Again - that's true, but there are patently a lot who ARE.
So I don't think Gargoyle's harsh truths should be dismissed out of hand. And I think the realities of life are that FAT people will be discriminated against - because generalisations ARE going to be made. Being FAT shouldn't stop anyone singing - but you have to realise that whilst people may love your voice, they may not like your looks. That's their choice, and their honest reaction. You can either focus on what they didn't like, or focus on what they did like. FAT is not a sacred thing that we should all make allowances for. If you had a huge pair of ears and bottle-bottom glasses but sing like an angel - well you'd still have to expect that people will comment on your looks as well as your voice.
Anyway, and finally, have the courage of your convictions. I'd rather be a FAT singer with a beautiful voice, than a lean machine that couldn't carry a tune. Focus on the positive god-given gift, not the packaging. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face (ie - don't stop singing!) And if you don't like people discriminating against your weight, then all you can really do is to make an honest attempt to change it (but please do it sensibly and healthily - or you could lose the good things you already have).


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: denise:^)
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 03:24 PM

Hmmm...I think GARGOYLE should be dismissed out of hand...

BTW, does "G" ever have anything to actually say about MUSIC? I usually notice a lot of complaining, whining, and insults, but not any musical content...

What about it, G?
Do you play anything, or sing anything???!?!?!?

Denise:^)
who plays and sings a lot!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM

EXCERPTS from the Wall Street Journal March 4, 2003

Obesity Report: Cut Sugar To No More Than 10% Of Calories

LONDON (AP)--People should get no more than 10% of their calories from sugar, experts say in a major new report Monday on how to stem the global epidemic of obesity-linked diseases.

The report was commissioned by two U.N. agencies, the World Health Organization and the Food and Agriculture Organization, and compiled by a panel of 30 international experts.

The food industry immediately decried the document, insisting more exercise is the key to ending obesity .

The report underlines what doctors have been saying for years -that along with regular exercise, a diet low in fatty, sugary and salty food is key to staying healthy.

The experts recommend one hour of daily exercise, double the amount recommended by the U.S. government but the same as that endorsed by other establishments.

But when it came to sugar, their advice was some of the boldest yet.

The United States, leads the world in obesity.

Philip James, chairman of the International Obesity Task Force and one of the scientists on the panel, said the report presents the food industry with one of its biggest challenges.

"Despite all the attempts so far to increase the provision of healthier choices over the last 10 or more years, obesity rates have accelerated," he said. "The food industry must now sit down with WHO and others to work out how to seriously address this issue and become part of the solution rather than remaining part of the problem."

Scientists predict that heart disease will be the leading cause of death in developing countries by the end of the decade. Obesity rates are also increasing more rapidly in developing countries than in rich nations, and two-thirds of the people with -live in the developing world.

<The U.S. National Soft Drink Association said that a 10% limit on sugar should not be part of the plan.

Starting next week, WHO officials will be meeting health authorities from around the world to discuss how governments plan to respond to the recommendations. A similar meeting is planned with food industry officials in May.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:15 PM

If you are Denice... is your brother the denephew?

Until the clones begin to classify 60% of the shlock like this thead as BS (which it is) most music threads will continue to be lost.

Denice - I have posted more lyrics (200 plus) to more songs than you have entire posts. My pride and joy is the Rugby thread and in particular the Candy Man.

For a recent contribtuion check out the Dummy Train thread of last week.

Sincerely, Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: curmudgeon
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:49 PM

Gargoyle -- Your last post was very informative despite your proclivity to use html colors, and in the previous post to use all manner of html legerdemain.

Speaking of your previous post, your venemous diatribes do not suit one who, in my opinion, may actually have something meaningful to say   -- Tom


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: denise:^)
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM

I believe that this *began* as a music post--someone was concerned about being judged by appearances when performing, and others replied to confirm his/her belief or negate his/her fears--

and then others started posting to tell the ORIGINAL posters that they must be fat, lazy slobs...

I find that amusing, as I said, in this forum of many words and few pictures. The exact rotundity of the posters is neither here nor there--the idea was to determine if others had felt slighted because of their size. As it turns out--some have had bad experiences, some haven't. I have never seen anything in the folk music world to even hold a candle to the extreme 'appearance-consciousness' and weight-phobia of the pop music world!

I'm sure that everyone who has posted here is not extremely overweight--I know I'm not! However, you don't have to be morbidly obese to have people make rude comments...

I've found my local folk music & dance groups to be (as I mentioned!) quite open & friendly to everyone. We have singers & instrumentalists of all sizes--we have contra dancers of all sizes, as well. As in any group, I think that diversity only adds interest, so I'd say we're lucky to be the way we are.

BTW, JoiningSoon, did you join? Did you come back to read any of this? Did you get scared away when folks started accusing you of eating too much sugar and not exercising enough? I hope not...

Denise:^)

FYI, "G"--Lots of my posts are under "Guest,denise:^)" because I originally started posting on a computer while on vacation (not mine!)...and, then, too, some of them had a wink ;^) instead of a smile :^), so they'd be listed differently, too... Guess I'm a poster of many faces! --denise, with an "s"


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM

Thanks for the clarification - smile? OK

With two dots, a crack, and a slit, it was assumed to be female geitalia.

Guess what? Like you...Lots of my posts are under GUEST also.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM

Thanks Denise,

I felt exactly the same way as you when I read many of the postings on this thread. I tried to get it back on track by relating what I had actually experienced... hoping that others would share their stories too. However, the postings dove right back into the "responsibility for your weight issue". Good grief, we all have our personal take on this, and that is fine, but it has very little relation to the actual question posed by the original poster.

I value this list very much as a "virtual" community, but it has taken all my resolve to follow this thread. I keep reading it hoping that some experiences will be shared that will either prepare me for a future happening or make me feel in good company. Just hearing about peoples experiences can be useful. However, posts mainly focussing on bickering about weight issues should, in my oppinion, be moved to a thread entitled "bickering about why people are overweight".

I hope we didn't scare away the original poster.

Claire


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Don Sadler
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 09:45 AM

After a lifetime of drinking all the soda and eating all the cookies I wanted, I had to make changes to bring down high cholesterol and triglicerides last year. I mainly quit drinking sodas and eating processed cookies (I still miss my Oreos) and looked for other ways to cut down on sugar . I also adjusted my workout routine to include more cardio activity. In just two months, I lost 10 pounds (from 160 to 150), improved all my cholesterol numbers and reduced my body fat to 11.9%. I've never been overweight, so I had no idea what all the sugar was doing.

Don Sadler


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Rosie Hardman
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

I should just like to add a little note to this thread. Make no mistake - my size was a big hindrence to my career (I once had a major London Agent say 'Terrific voice, wonderful songs, great guitar, super personality - but I'll never sell the image - how pathetic)... However, that is past history now and anyway I turned it to great advantage at times ;-) .... what IS interesting is this....

At nearly 60 I finally got to see a dietician that took a look at what I eat and who pronounced that in fact I eat a very healthy diet. The reason I am the size I am was that eating is NOT a priority with me and never has been. I will quite happily go without eating at all until the evening if I'm busy. Even then I eat the same size dinner as my husband (one course and a yoghurt or similar) - and he is stick thin. So the dietician diagnosed a slow metabolism in February and put me on a diet to boost this.

I HAVE to eat a bowl of cereal at breakfast, I HAVE to eat fruit mid-morning, I HAVE to have a sandwich or something similar at lunchtime, I have to eat fruit again mid afternoon... I have my usual dinner - then in the evening before I go to bed I HAVE to have another piece of fruit.

For the first month - nothing happened - so they decided to leave me for two months.... when I went back I had lost 7 KILOS. I went back recently for another check and had lost another 3 KILOS. I still eat the same type of food that I always ate but the weight is dropping off me.

So this idea that if you are very large you must eat junk food and a lot more than other folk is not always true.... and the stigma that programs like 'You Are What You Eat' create really makes my blood boil. The attitude of comedians and the sheer ignorance of the general public about the problems of obesity makes me want to murder some of them.

The insult that anyone is fat because they want to be - in a world that is so shallowly involved with 'image' and all the prejudice that it encourages - really shows how little the person concerned knows. It may be true in their case but it sure as heck isn't in mine. Nobody in their right MIND wants to suffer the rudeness of these ignoramusses day after day, or be crippled by the pain of obesity - or suffer the discrimination in the workplace - not just in music but everywhere, that results.

Hasn't the world actually progressed beyond this kind of ignorance? NO? How sad.

Rosie Hardman.
p.s. I may be retired but the fat lady just SANG.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:39 AM

I'm afraid that you just can't get away from it on the folk scene - even in that fine song "Limehouse Reach" (words by Cicely Fox-Smith) weight-ism is mentioned:

For she's gone and married a lighter man - so it's time for me to go.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:59 AM

Most people in the folk world have never known the slim me unless they saw the photos of me at my 49 3/4 birthday of me weighing 9 stone at nine months pregnant 12 years ago!
Gargoyle in many ways you are right about us wanting to be fat - some of us hide behind it - but sweeping statements dont cover all the problems people have with their battles with weight and diets and eating problems.
I am really grateful to the folk world for accepting me as a singer even though I am now clinically obese The support of my folk friends has given me the strength to battle the eating disorder I have had most of my life.
An ex fatty is almost as bad as an ex smoker - dont forget that all the excuses you once made and all the avoidance you did - all the dictates in the world wont change people unless they want to be changed and even if they do it is still a long hard battle that needs support not criticism


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Charmion at work
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM

I absolutely agree with Ms Hardman above; note that it was the agent, not her audiences, who objected to her rotund appearance, and the issue was "saleability", not entertainment value!

I have sung all my life, and through most of said life have also sported more upholstery than society considers optimal. For more than 30 years, I have observed that people who look over, around and through me before I start singing come hustling over to chat me up the minute I stop. And in my single days, an awful lot of men of all ages made strenuous efforts to get very friendly indeed. This experience has led me to the conclusion that, in combination with even a minimal dose of self-confidence, talent is the world's most powerful attractant.

Charmion


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM

Steve Parkes said, in part:

Remember "Goonies"? The fat kid was greedy, cowardly, unreliable, treacherous;

Ah, but what a lovable kid! Even the gangsters were taken with him! Wonder what ever happened to him.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:54 PM

Quoth Kim C:

Before I got married I dated a large man. Dave wasn't what I would call fat, really, but he was large. And devastatingly handsome.

Gee, I don't really remember dating you.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:38 AM

Carmion, there are lots of men who like -- for want of a better expression -- big girls. Even if they can't sing. If you could play the fiddle ot the piano, I'd ask you to marry me ... except you're already married. So am I, come to think of it ...

Steve


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:05 AM

Well sung, Rosie!!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:41 AM

comment " If that belly was on a woman she'd be pregnant"
retort: " It was and she is!"


didn't Liza Carthy have some problems with a C.D. cover or promotional photos in the States because she was "overweight"


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: matai
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM

Ever since i have been attending folk festivals i feel like i've been mixing with real people. most are largish and the one or two skinny ones look oddly out of place. maybe more folkies could get work in the advertizing world and change the whole god-damned image that we're expected to live up to. being a musician makes people notice who you are, and those who look down on you for your size generally have considerable respect after they've heard you. we are certainly lucky to have these gifts (both size and musical talent)

matai


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:52 AM

Dave I'm sure your post about a "lighter Man" was toungue in cheek as I am sure you know that it is not referring to a man of lesser weight, but a man who worked the lighters(I believe barges of the area and era)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM

I think Dave was having a little joke, O; anyway, I know for a fact he uses matches!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,a skinny folky
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

in answer to the original question - no I haven't suffered discrimination for being overweight because by nature I'm pretty skinny.

But there's an opposite question - Has anyone ever been regarded warmly or treated as though you must be great musically because you are thin?
my answer - not to my knowledge. I don't think being thin a great advantage. Confidence and stage presence are what matters as a performer. Packaging and presentation matter in that they feed into confidence and stage presence but anyone can present themselves well, weight is only one aspect of what you look like.

and another opposite question - Has anyone ever been regarded coldly or treated as though you must be no good musically because you are thin?
my answer - yep. I've been told I ought to eat more (no ta, I've not got a massive appetite, I eat as much as I am comfortable with) and have to put up with a whole set of assumptions that 'everything's easy for you because you're thin' which frankly is rubbish and means I end up feeling I'm not getting credit for the hard work I put in, and am resented by people who in many other ways I am pretty close friends with.

My take on it - be healthy, be happy, be confident in what you can do and don't be lazy about anything, it's a waste of your talents. If people want to be small minded, they will be and you can't stop 'em. Put your effort into blowing them away with your performance and feel smug afterwards that you proved them wrong.

If you are overweight and feel discriminated against though, don't forget that plenty of other people suffer from discrimnation against problems that you don't have. Discrimination is, sadly, part of life - it's how you deal with it that counts. Don't let your appearance, fat or thin, rule your life - there is more to any performer than what they look like, and on the whole the folk world is a friendly place to be. Yes it suffers from the same pettiness as the rest of the world, but not as badly as plenty of other social circles.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,jcpie14
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:24 PM

i wanna become a singer. i sing in church all the time. in the shower too. but it can get annoying at school. sometimes my friends sing along with me. i love singing. i love dancing. i'm cute and i have a nice body. i'm 100%latina. i'm tall for a girl. i guess 5'5 is tall...anyways i had to write all this because i love music and i just hope to become a singer one day. my favorite song is brown eyes. and my e-mail and id for yahoo is jcpie14@sbcglobal.net. if u wanna say something or just talk to me go right ahead.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Scouse (Cookie's gone walkabout)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:43 PM

I well remember the day Rosie Hardman once told the Audience "If you don't shut up I'll come down ther and sit on you!! And no one ever told big Hamish he was FAT!!! Heavens forbid..it's what's inside that counts.. As Aye..Phil


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:25 PM

Charmion, ☞( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞ 


Gargoyle, your right, you are fat because you want to be fat. I will continue to lose.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:58 PM

no one ever told big Hamish he was FAT!!!

If you mean Hamish Imlach - he did, himself.

In the ten years since the last posts in this thread there has been a lot of research into what drives obesity. One hugely important factor is gut bacteria; drastic changes in gut flora (by antibiotics, changes in diet or poo transplants) can either cause or induce obesity. And one thing that now seems not to matter at all is how much physical exertion you do: NOBODY can burn off fat by exercise.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,a fat singer/songwriter
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 03:16 PM

When I sing blues or whatever, nobody minds that I'm fat.

When I sing the romantic/wistful folk and pop ballads that I can deliver with a powerful, wide-ranging voice, my vocal talents have a HUGE battle to win me applause - because I'm fat.

I'm 6'2" and in the neighborhood of 380 pounds - 27 stone for the UK folks.

I've always been large-framed; even at my physical peak, in my late teens and early twenties, when I played basketball, at 6'2" and 190-200 pounds, I still looked bigger than the scale indicated, toned physique and all.

Now that I've managed to survive a literal death-bed episode, I gained significant weight during and after my recovery from major surgery.

I am a far better singer now than I was when I was thin, and although I am not attributing it to my weight/size at all, I still believe that my musical abilities should be able to win the day over whether I look like a "sex symbol" SHOULD (feel the sarcasm there).

Right on, too, Jack, about the exercise myth. Ten miles or more on a treadmill as penance for the caloric content of ONE donut? The idea is ridiculous.

I think the reason that the real secrets to reaching and maintaining optimal weight and health (NOT necessarily thinness) have been obscured is because the profits from manufacturing and selling sugar-laden, processed crap food are too great.

The doctors and nutritionists, etc, who are doing and promoting real life-affirming, health-saving research are fighting against billionaires who own the industrial food conglomerates. Those are powerful enemies.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: BobL
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 03:03 AM

Trouble is, any business that exploits human weakness is a guaranteed money-spinner - e.g. junk food, booze, gambling, armaments...


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 04:22 AM

Funny, it used to be the trope that you had to have a bit of weight on to have a truly sweet voice - that was why the old opera singers were all full of figure. This idea seems to have gone out the window, though.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 04:57 AM

I have been battling a weight problem all my life. When I was young I refused to eat at all, (rough childhood lets not go there) I was walking with a stick when aged 3. In my early years I put on loads of weight then when puberty started went back to not eating at all. I was seriously underweight and passed out on a London Bus. They all thought I was drunk and chucked me off. Later on I put on about 5 stone, and lost it again when my relationship went wrong, finally after marrying Mally, I began to face the childhood abuse and settled at about 17 stone. I am now 65 and still fighting to lose weight. I am 21 stone.
All that said, some barsteward walked up to me at a gig and announced 'Looking at you I wouldn't have thought you could play and sing like that' 'Really?' I replied 'How should I look?' he pondered for a minute then said ' Well not like that!' Surprisingly I didn't knock him out.
yours in peace
Nick


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 07:16 AM

The only soft thing I can see right now is the Heathen above.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Bassman
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM

I'm fat but I also object to talent-discrimination. There's no justice. Just because I was born without musical talent is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE not to pay me handsomely for appearing on stage or doing lucrative recording work.


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