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WEIGHT discrimination in music world...

GUEST,Bassman 25 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 24 Apr 17 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 24 Apr 17 - 04:57 AM
Thompson 24 Apr 17 - 04:22 AM
BobL 24 Apr 17 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,a fat singer/songwriter 23 Apr 17 - 03:16 PM
Jack Campin 23 Apr 17 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,pauperback 23 Apr 17 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Scouse (Cookie's gone walkabout) 07 Jan 05 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,jcpie14 07 Jan 05 - 04:24 PM
GUEST,a skinny folky 13 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM
Steve Parkes 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Observer 12 Aug 04 - 08:52 AM
matai 12 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM
GUEST 12 Aug 04 - 08:41 AM
Mrs.Duck 12 Aug 04 - 08:05 AM
Steve Parkes 12 Aug 04 - 03:38 AM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Aug 04 - 05:54 PM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,Charmion at work 11 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM
Red and White Rabbit 11 Aug 04 - 04:59 AM
Dave Bryant 10 Aug 04 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,Rosie Hardman 10 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,Don Sadler 06 Mar 03 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,Claire 05 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM
GUEST 05 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM
denise:^) 05 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM
curmudgeon 04 Mar 03 - 09:49 PM
GUEST 04 Mar 03 - 09:15 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 04 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM
denise:^) 04 Mar 03 - 03:24 PM
GUEST 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM
MairSea 04 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM
harvey andrews 04 Mar 03 - 08:12 AM
denise:^) 04 Mar 03 - 07:54 AM
AggieD 04 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 Mar 03 - 10:52 PM
denise:^) 03 Mar 03 - 04:21 PM
Dave Bryant 03 Mar 03 - 05:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 03 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM
Jeremiah McCaw 03 Mar 03 - 05:00 AM
GUEST 03 Mar 03 - 04:57 AM
SINSULL 01 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM
Peg 01 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM
mg 28 Feb 03 - 10:23 PM
Alice 28 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM
Art Thieme 28 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM
Kim C 28 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM
rich-joy 28 Feb 03 - 04:48 AM
Kudzuman 27 Feb 03 - 11:51 PM
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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Bassman
Date: 25 Apr 17 - 09:29 AM

I'm fat but I also object to talent-discrimination. There's no justice. Just because I was born without musical talent is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE not to pay me handsomely for appearing on stage or doing lucrative recording work.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 07:16 AM

The only soft thing I can see right now is the Heathen above.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 04:57 AM

I have been battling a weight problem all my life. When I was young I refused to eat at all, (rough childhood lets not go there) I was walking with a stick when aged 3. In my early years I put on loads of weight then when puberty started went back to not eating at all. I was seriously underweight and passed out on a London Bus. They all thought I was drunk and chucked me off. Later on I put on about 5 stone, and lost it again when my relationship went wrong, finally after marrying Mally, I began to face the childhood abuse and settled at about 17 stone. I am now 65 and still fighting to lose weight. I am 21 stone.
All that said, some barsteward walked up to me at a gig and announced 'Looking at you I wouldn't have thought you could play and sing like that' 'Really?' I replied 'How should I look?' he pondered for a minute then said ' Well not like that!' Surprisingly I didn't knock him out.
yours in peace
Nick


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 04:22 AM

Funny, it used to be the trope that you had to have a bit of weight on to have a truly sweet voice - that was why the old opera singers were all full of figure. This idea seems to have gone out the window, though.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: BobL
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 03:03 AM

Trouble is, any business that exploits human weakness is a guaranteed money-spinner - e.g. junk food, booze, gambling, armaments...


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,a fat singer/songwriter
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 03:16 PM

When I sing blues or whatever, nobody minds that I'm fat.

When I sing the romantic/wistful folk and pop ballads that I can deliver with a powerful, wide-ranging voice, my vocal talents have a HUGE battle to win me applause - because I'm fat.

I'm 6'2" and in the neighborhood of 380 pounds - 27 stone for the UK folks.

I've always been large-framed; even at my physical peak, in my late teens and early twenties, when I played basketball, at 6'2" and 190-200 pounds, I still looked bigger than the scale indicated, toned physique and all.

Now that I've managed to survive a literal death-bed episode, I gained significant weight during and after my recovery from major surgery.

I am a far better singer now than I was when I was thin, and although I am not attributing it to my weight/size at all, I still believe that my musical abilities should be able to win the day over whether I look like a "sex symbol" SHOULD (feel the sarcasm there).

Right on, too, Jack, about the exercise myth. Ten miles or more on a treadmill as penance for the caloric content of ONE donut? The idea is ridiculous.

I think the reason that the real secrets to reaching and maintaining optimal weight and health (NOT necessarily thinness) have been obscured is because the profits from manufacturing and selling sugar-laden, processed crap food are too great.

The doctors and nutritionists, etc, who are doing and promoting real life-affirming, health-saving research are fighting against billionaires who own the industrial food conglomerates. Those are powerful enemies.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:58 PM

no one ever told big Hamish he was FAT!!!

If you mean Hamish Imlach - he did, himself.

In the ten years since the last posts in this thread there has been a lot of research into what drives obesity. One hugely important factor is gut bacteria; drastic changes in gut flora (by antibiotics, changes in diet or poo transplants) can either cause or induce obesity. And one thing that now seems not to matter at all is how much physical exertion you do: NOBODY can burn off fat by exercise.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:25 PM

Charmion, ☞( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞ 


Gargoyle, your right, you are fat because you want to be fat. I will continue to lose.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Scouse (Cookie's gone walkabout)
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:43 PM

I well remember the day Rosie Hardman once told the Audience "If you don't shut up I'll come down ther and sit on you!! And no one ever told big Hamish he was FAT!!! Heavens forbid..it's what's inside that counts.. As Aye..Phil


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,jcpie14
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 04:24 PM

i wanna become a singer. i sing in church all the time. in the shower too. but it can get annoying at school. sometimes my friends sing along with me. i love singing. i love dancing. i'm cute and i have a nice body. i'm 100%latina. i'm tall for a girl. i guess 5'5 is tall...anyways i had to write all this because i love music and i just hope to become a singer one day. my favorite song is brown eyes. and my e-mail and id for yahoo is jcpie14@sbcglobal.net. if u wanna say something or just talk to me go right ahead.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,a skinny folky
Date: 13 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

in answer to the original question - no I haven't suffered discrimination for being overweight because by nature I'm pretty skinny.

But there's an opposite question - Has anyone ever been regarded warmly or treated as though you must be great musically because you are thin?
my answer - not to my knowledge. I don't think being thin a great advantage. Confidence and stage presence are what matters as a performer. Packaging and presentation matter in that they feed into confidence and stage presence but anyone can present themselves well, weight is only one aspect of what you look like.

and another opposite question - Has anyone ever been regarded coldly or treated as though you must be no good musically because you are thin?
my answer - yep. I've been told I ought to eat more (no ta, I've not got a massive appetite, I eat as much as I am comfortable with) and have to put up with a whole set of assumptions that 'everything's easy for you because you're thin' which frankly is rubbish and means I end up feeling I'm not getting credit for the hard work I put in, and am resented by people who in many other ways I am pretty close friends with.

My take on it - be healthy, be happy, be confident in what you can do and don't be lazy about anything, it's a waste of your talents. If people want to be small minded, they will be and you can't stop 'em. Put your effort into blowing them away with your performance and feel smug afterwards that you proved them wrong.

If you are overweight and feel discriminated against though, don't forget that plenty of other people suffer from discrimnation against problems that you don't have. Discrimination is, sadly, part of life - it's how you deal with it that counts. Don't let your appearance, fat or thin, rule your life - there is more to any performer than what they look like, and on the whole the folk world is a friendly place to be. Yes it suffers from the same pettiness as the rest of the world, but not as badly as plenty of other social circles.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM

I think Dave was having a little joke, O; anyway, I know for a fact he uses matches!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:52 AM

Dave I'm sure your post about a "lighter Man" was toungue in cheek as I am sure you know that it is not referring to a man of lesser weight, but a man who worked the lighters(I believe barges of the area and era)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: matai
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM

Ever since i have been attending folk festivals i feel like i've been mixing with real people. most are largish and the one or two skinny ones look oddly out of place. maybe more folkies could get work in the advertizing world and change the whole god-damned image that we're expected to live up to. being a musician makes people notice who you are, and those who look down on you for your size generally have considerable respect after they've heard you. we are certainly lucky to have these gifts (both size and musical talent)

matai


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:41 AM

comment " If that belly was on a woman she'd be pregnant"
retort: " It was and she is!"


didn't Liza Carthy have some problems with a C.D. cover or promotional photos in the States because she was "overweight"


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:05 AM

Well sung, Rosie!!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 03:38 AM

Carmion, there are lots of men who like -- for want of a better expression -- big girls. Even if they can't sing. If you could play the fiddle ot the piano, I'd ask you to marry me ... except you're already married. So am I, come to think of it ...

Steve


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:54 PM

Quoth Kim C:

Before I got married I dated a large man. Dave wasn't what I would call fat, really, but he was large. And devastatingly handsome.

Gee, I don't really remember dating you.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:41 PM

Steve Parkes said, in part:

Remember "Goonies"? The fat kid was greedy, cowardly, unreliable, treacherous;

Ah, but what a lovable kid! Even the gangsters were taken with him! Wonder what ever happened to him.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Charmion at work
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 05:06 PM

I absolutely agree with Ms Hardman above; note that it was the agent, not her audiences, who objected to her rotund appearance, and the issue was "saleability", not entertainment value!

I have sung all my life, and through most of said life have also sported more upholstery than society considers optimal. For more than 30 years, I have observed that people who look over, around and through me before I start singing come hustling over to chat me up the minute I stop. And in my single days, an awful lot of men of all ages made strenuous efforts to get very friendly indeed. This experience has led me to the conclusion that, in combination with even a minimal dose of self-confidence, talent is the world's most powerful attractant.

Charmion


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 11 Aug 04 - 04:59 AM

Most people in the folk world have never known the slim me unless they saw the photos of me at my 49 3/4 birthday of me weighing 9 stone at nine months pregnant 12 years ago!
Gargoyle in many ways you are right about us wanting to be fat - some of us hide behind it - but sweeping statements dont cover all the problems people have with their battles with weight and diets and eating problems.
I am really grateful to the folk world for accepting me as a singer even though I am now clinically obese The support of my folk friends has given me the strength to battle the eating disorder I have had most of my life.
An ex fatty is almost as bad as an ex smoker - dont forget that all the excuses you once made and all the avoidance you did - all the dictates in the world wont change people unless they want to be changed and even if they do it is still a long hard battle that needs support not criticism


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 11:39 AM

I'm afraid that you just can't get away from it on the folk scene - even in that fine song "Limehouse Reach" (words by Cicely Fox-Smith) weight-ism is mentioned:

For she's gone and married a lighter man - so it's time for me to go.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Rosie Hardman
Date: 10 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

I should just like to add a little note to this thread. Make no mistake - my size was a big hindrence to my career (I once had a major London Agent say 'Terrific voice, wonderful songs, great guitar, super personality - but I'll never sell the image - how pathetic)... However, that is past history now and anyway I turned it to great advantage at times ;-) .... what IS interesting is this....

At nearly 60 I finally got to see a dietician that took a look at what I eat and who pronounced that in fact I eat a very healthy diet. The reason I am the size I am was that eating is NOT a priority with me and never has been. I will quite happily go without eating at all until the evening if I'm busy. Even then I eat the same size dinner as my husband (one course and a yoghurt or similar) - and he is stick thin. So the dietician diagnosed a slow metabolism in February and put me on a diet to boost this.

I HAVE to eat a bowl of cereal at breakfast, I HAVE to eat fruit mid-morning, I HAVE to have a sandwich or something similar at lunchtime, I have to eat fruit again mid afternoon... I have my usual dinner - then in the evening before I go to bed I HAVE to have another piece of fruit.

For the first month - nothing happened - so they decided to leave me for two months.... when I went back I had lost 7 KILOS. I went back recently for another check and had lost another 3 KILOS. I still eat the same type of food that I always ate but the weight is dropping off me.

So this idea that if you are very large you must eat junk food and a lot more than other folk is not always true.... and the stigma that programs like 'You Are What You Eat' create really makes my blood boil. The attitude of comedians and the sheer ignorance of the general public about the problems of obesity makes me want to murder some of them.

The insult that anyone is fat because they want to be - in a world that is so shallowly involved with 'image' and all the prejudice that it encourages - really shows how little the person concerned knows. It may be true in their case but it sure as heck isn't in mine. Nobody in their right MIND wants to suffer the rudeness of these ignoramusses day after day, or be crippled by the pain of obesity - or suffer the discrimination in the workplace - not just in music but everywhere, that results.

Hasn't the world actually progressed beyond this kind of ignorance? NO? How sad.

Rosie Hardman.
p.s. I may be retired but the fat lady just SANG.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Don Sadler
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 09:45 AM

After a lifetime of drinking all the soda and eating all the cookies I wanted, I had to make changes to bring down high cholesterol and triglicerides last year. I mainly quit drinking sodas and eating processed cookies (I still miss my Oreos) and looked for other ways to cut down on sugar . I also adjusted my workout routine to include more cardio activity. In just two months, I lost 10 pounds (from 160 to 150), improved all my cholesterol numbers and reduced my body fat to 11.9%. I've never been overweight, so I had no idea what all the sugar was doing.

Don Sadler


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM

Thanks Denise,

I felt exactly the same way as you when I read many of the postings on this thread. I tried to get it back on track by relating what I had actually experienced... hoping that others would share their stories too. However, the postings dove right back into the "responsibility for your weight issue". Good grief, we all have our personal take on this, and that is fine, but it has very little relation to the actual question posed by the original poster.

I value this list very much as a "virtual" community, but it has taken all my resolve to follow this thread. I keep reading it hoping that some experiences will be shared that will either prepare me for a future happening or make me feel in good company. Just hearing about peoples experiences can be useful. However, posts mainly focussing on bickering about weight issues should, in my oppinion, be moved to a thread entitled "bickering about why people are overweight".

I hope we didn't scare away the original poster.

Claire


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:56 AM

Thanks for the clarification - smile? OK

With two dots, a crack, and a slit, it was assumed to be female geitalia.

Guess what? Like you...Lots of my posts are under GUEST also.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: denise:^)
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 02:12 AM

I believe that this *began* as a music post--someone was concerned about being judged by appearances when performing, and others replied to confirm his/her belief or negate his/her fears--

and then others started posting to tell the ORIGINAL posters that they must be fat, lazy slobs...

I find that amusing, as I said, in this forum of many words and few pictures. The exact rotundity of the posters is neither here nor there--the idea was to determine if others had felt slighted because of their size. As it turns out--some have had bad experiences, some haven't. I have never seen anything in the folk music world to even hold a candle to the extreme 'appearance-consciousness' and weight-phobia of the pop music world!

I'm sure that everyone who has posted here is not extremely overweight--I know I'm not! However, you don't have to be morbidly obese to have people make rude comments...

I've found my local folk music & dance groups to be (as I mentioned!) quite open & friendly to everyone. We have singers & instrumentalists of all sizes--we have contra dancers of all sizes, as well. As in any group, I think that diversity only adds interest, so I'd say we're lucky to be the way we are.

BTW, JoiningSoon, did you join? Did you come back to read any of this? Did you get scared away when folks started accusing you of eating too much sugar and not exercising enough? I hope not...

Denise:^)

FYI, "G"--Lots of my posts are under "Guest,denise:^)" because I originally started posting on a computer while on vacation (not mine!)...and, then, too, some of them had a wink ;^) instead of a smile :^), so they'd be listed differently, too... Guess I'm a poster of many faces! --denise, with an "s"


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: curmudgeon
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:49 PM

Gargoyle -- Your last post was very informative despite your proclivity to use html colors, and in the previous post to use all manner of html legerdemain.

Speaking of your previous post, your venemous diatribes do not suit one who, in my opinion, may actually have something meaningful to say   -- Tom


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:15 PM

If you are Denice... is your brother the denephew?

Until the clones begin to classify 60% of the shlock like this thead as BS (which it is) most music threads will continue to be lost.

Denice - I have posted more lyrics (200 plus) to more songs than you have entire posts. My pride and joy is the Rugby thread and in particular the Candy Man.

For a recent contribtuion check out the Dummy Train thread of last week.

Sincerely, Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM

EXCERPTS from the Wall Street Journal March 4, 2003

Obesity Report: Cut Sugar To No More Than 10% Of Calories

LONDON (AP)--People should get no more than 10% of their calories from sugar, experts say in a major new report Monday on how to stem the global epidemic of obesity-linked diseases.

The report was commissioned by two U.N. agencies, the World Health Organization and the Food and Agriculture Organization, and compiled by a panel of 30 international experts.

The food industry immediately decried the document, insisting more exercise is the key to ending obesity .

The report underlines what doctors have been saying for years -that along with regular exercise, a diet low in fatty, sugary and salty food is key to staying healthy.

The experts recommend one hour of daily exercise, double the amount recommended by the U.S. government but the same as that endorsed by other establishments.

But when it came to sugar, their advice was some of the boldest yet.

The United States, leads the world in obesity.

Philip James, chairman of the International Obesity Task Force and one of the scientists on the panel, said the report presents the food industry with one of its biggest challenges.

"Despite all the attempts so far to increase the provision of healthier choices over the last 10 or more years, obesity rates have accelerated," he said. "The food industry must now sit down with WHO and others to work out how to seriously address this issue and become part of the solution rather than remaining part of the problem."

Scientists predict that heart disease will be the leading cause of death in developing countries by the end of the decade. Obesity rates are also increasing more rapidly in developing countries than in rich nations, and two-thirds of the people with -live in the developing world.

<The U.S. National Soft Drink Association said that a 10% limit on sugar should not be part of the plan.

Starting next week, WHO officials will be meeting health authorities from around the world to discuss how governments plan to respond to the recommendations. A similar meeting is planned with food industry officials in May.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: denise:^)
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 03:24 PM

Hmmm...I think GARGOYLE should be dismissed out of hand...

BTW, does "G" ever have anything to actually say about MUSIC? I usually notice a lot of complaining, whining, and insults, but not any musical content...

What about it, G?
Do you play anything, or sing anything???!?!?!?

Denise:^)
who plays and sings a lot!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 11:49 AM

There is a difference between being generously proportioned and being FAT. Some people are built big, and they look right big. They don't look FAT, they look in proportion and their flesh is firm and they don't have obesity-type health problems. Funnily enough they don't get that much discrimination anyway, because they look just right the way they are.
There are people who are overweight due to pre-existing health problems, which mean that they store excess fat & can't get rid of it. They are very unlucky, and I imagine they get a lot of painful discrimation which they don't deserve.
BUT - there are a lot of FAT people out there who are out of proportion - whose bodies are having problems maintaining and carrying the extra weight - who are eating and drinking to excess and not expending that energy due to sedentary lifestyles. They tend to be the ones that frankly don't look their best. There are people who are in denial about their weight and therefore wear truly horribly innapropriate clothes. There are people who are unhappy about their weight - so they comfort eat - so they get fatter - etc etc. There are people who are making themselves needlessly unhealthy and sluggish. Those are the people who need a wake-up-call, but they don't want to hear the message - so they try to hide behind the FACT that "not everybody who is fat is fat through their own fault". Well that's true - but its also true that not everybody who is fat HAS to be fat or is happy being fat. Its also true that "not everybody who is fat is unhealthy, weak-willed or unattractive". Again - that's true, but there are patently a lot who ARE.
So I don't think Gargoyle's harsh truths should be dismissed out of hand. And I think the realities of life are that FAT people will be discriminated against - because generalisations ARE going to be made. Being FAT shouldn't stop anyone singing - but you have to realise that whilst people may love your voice, they may not like your looks. That's their choice, and their honest reaction. You can either focus on what they didn't like, or focus on what they did like. FAT is not a sacred thing that we should all make allowances for. If you had a huge pair of ears and bottle-bottom glasses but sing like an angel - well you'd still have to expect that people will comment on your looks as well as your voice.
Anyway, and finally, have the courage of your convictions. I'd rather be a FAT singer with a beautiful voice, than a lean machine that couldn't carry a tune. Focus on the positive god-given gift, not the packaging. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face (ie - don't stop singing!) And if you don't like people discriminating against your weight, then all you can really do is to make an honest attempt to change it (but please do it sensibly and healthily - or you could lose the good things you already have).


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: MairSea
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM

They say One who eavesdrops hears no good of themselves! I am fair, fat and fifties and was invited to sing at a folk club. I did my set, dressed appropriately, but on visiting the loo overheard two ladies from the audience who decided that I had a voice for radio - beautiful - but how dare I insult their eyes! They continued in this vein for quite a few minutes (seemed like hours) and I wish I could say that I came out and gave them a flea in their ear - I didn't I have just stopped singing! Thank you ladies for your 'well-deserved observations'. I'm afraid that I can vouch for the fact that the POp Idol type of criticism is alive and well in Folk circles. Pity really because if that is the case then the traditional song will truly die a death at the hands of the audience as well as the politicians!!!!


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: harvey andrews
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 08:12 AM

The only fat ( and ugly) people in London gargoyle? That's not been my experience. I saw some grotesque sights in North America! Are you sure you mean "Ugly" and not just "badly dressed"...which I concede.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: denise:^)
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 07:54 AM

Keep talking...that's always the easiest part!! (Especially in this forum of many words and few pictures...)

Denise:^)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: AggieD
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM

Oh dear Gargoyle you do have a very LARGE chip on your shoulder(no pun intended!!!!!).

Why then if obesity is not part of our inheritance - for some not all - are they now developing a way of altering the mutated fat gene to stop those people who have it, so that our bodies do not get overweight?

Yes I do agree that we can do something about our size & yes certain ways of losing weight agree with some & not with others, & yes there are lots of greedy people out there who never exercise & live on junk food, & for those people I have little sympathy. However there are still lots of people who struggle constantly with their weight, who are not lazy & eat a good diet.

There are also lots of people in the music world who are bigger than the norm, although the norm seems to be no bigger than a stick insect, which is far more unhealthy than being big.

At least if you are overweight you are less likely to get osteoporosis in later life, especially if you do exercise!

As for heart disease, high blood pressure etc. my doctor has admitted to me that the medical world do not actually know with 100% certainty that obesity solely brings on any of these problems, many of them are theories that research is trying to prove. I know of many thin people who have high blood pressure, heart problems, high cholestorol etc etc.

Enjoy your life, sing your heart out & be positive, you never know you might find other joys in life than eating.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 10:52 PM

HHhhMMMmmmmm Less judgmental...or more in denial of the draw-backs?//

Wow! What a grand response….of guilty souls.

Don't get me wrong – once… I too….would have been defending my extra weight. And, would have been verbally violent also.

Sure, I played in France and then Germany, over a course of five years.

But, I would not have had the energy and drive to play in Peru, Ireland, Netherlands, England, and Germany in the past three years. IF the pounds were not lost…and I was in no better physical condition than the previous two tours.

The prejudice is against yourself… and your own sloth ….which prevents you from sharing your talent with the broadest (no pun) audience possible. Loathing yourself…..because you are fat….is a condition you CAN…. change!

It is NOT heredity!!!!

Fast Food Nation Eric Schlosser, Harper Collins Books, 2000, p 240-241.

p. 240 "More than half of all American adult and about one-quarter of all American children are now obese or overweight. Those proportions have soared during the last few decades, along with the consumption of fast food. The rate of obesity among American adults is twice as high today as it was in the early 1960's….

"Today about 44 million American adult are obese. An additional 6 million are "super-obese"; they weigh about a hundred pounds more than they should. No other nation in history has gotten so fat so fast.

"A recent study by half a dozen researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that the rate of American obesity was increasing in every state and among both sexes, regardless of age, race, or educational level. In 1991, only four states had obesity rates of 15 percent or high; today at least thirty-seven states do. " Rarely do chronic conditions such as obesity," the CDC scientists observed, "spread with the speed and dispersion characteristic of a communicable disease epidemic." Although the current rise in obesity has a number of complex causes, genetics is not one of them. The American gene pool has not changed radically in the past few decades. What has changed is the nation's way of eating and living. In simple terms when people eat more and move less, they get fat.">

p. 241 " The cost of America's obesity epidemic extends far beyond emotional pain and low self-esteem. Obesity is now second only to smoking as a cause of mortality in the United States."

COMMENTARY - by Gargoyle In recent travels, (my lifetime collection is over 20 different countries ) the only fat (and ugly) people I have observed have been in London. Most of the world is pretty damn-good-looking.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

To WYSIWYG: Sorry – No links ….no 'cut and paste'…..it is just like the Dummy Train thread….this is a transcription from my own collection of books.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: denise:^)
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:21 PM

I think the folkies are probably less judgmental than most...

More fun weight facts:
~"talking about it" is much easier than actually LOSING WEIGHT, and every thin person knows 'just what you should do;'
~Art is right; it is much more acceptable for a man to be overweight than a woman.

Denise:^)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:36 AM

Rosie Hardman who has written some wonderful songs has her own Website HERE. You can find many of her songs on it.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM

Pavarotti; Domingo;
And those who made no attempt to hide it: 'Chubby Checker' & Fats Domino
And, finally, Elvis


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:00 AM

Cookie reset. Glad I signed that last.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:57 AM

"I have little sympathy for people who have unhealthy eating and exercise habits, and don't take responsibility for their own physical condition."

"There is prejudice against weight...and IT IS Justified. Fat people lack stamina, patience, and self-discipline"

"I have no patience with the excuses. You are FAT because you WANT to be fat."


I hardly know where to start. This is not intended to be a "flame", but I'm so angry, I could spit nails! Maybe start with Gargoyle, who quotes many basic facts, but sadly uses them to excuse or justify his judgmental attitude. Perhaps it would be better described as a pre-judgmental attitude?

Someone of large size gets up on stage to perform, and just by looking at their size you know all about them? Their motivation, or (assumed) lack thereof? The dues they've paid? Horseshit! How dare you write a person off that way?

I have no patience with such attitudes, or of any of the others quoted above. There's not so much difference between disregarding someone because of their weight (which has been described as "the last safe prejudice") as doing so because of the colour of their skin, religion, etc.

I'm heavily overweight, been fighting the damned battle all my life. Still fighting. With various diets and disciplines (don't get me started on my opinion of the diet industry!), probably lost 600 pounds off and on (literally) in my time. And I'm still heavily overweight. Biggest victory? I figure it's the day I simply decided to stop hating myself for it. Only took the first 30 years or so of my life to figure that out.

And I'm still here. And I'm still getting my little round self up on stage and sharing what I love with those who are willing to listen. And if some can't, or won't get around the appearance thing, guess what? It really is their problem, not mine.

Here endeth the rant!

Jeremiah


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

I hate it when gargoyle is right! Just had a check-up. My cholesterol is bordering medication levels and my blood pressure requires medication. Stress from the moving and total lack of exercise coupled with eating everything that is bad for me...

Just a year ago, I was on a high protein/no whites diet which led to a painless loss of 39 pounds. My cholesterol and blood pressure dropped dramatically. I dislike sweets and sugary treats but can't resist pizza and chips. Guess I will have to.

So even though I feel no weight discrimination at Mudcat (it is out there in the job market where I am seen as lazy before I even open my mouth) if I am going to live to 60 and once again tie my shoes without risking an embolism, I have to make better choices and get up from the computer occasionally.

Of course, my Dad is 89 and going strong despite similar health problems. Sorry for the thread drift.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Peg
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:26 AM

I was of average weight growing up but not terribly active. I never felt very confident in phys ed class. Then I started jogging in high school and then in college added tennis, ballet, modern dance, fencing etc. I was a theatre major and it was all about the actor as body. I continued running (at the height I was running six miles a day, every day--sometimes it affected my menstrual periods because my body fat ratio was so low) and tended to eat healthy but not very consciously; I find that when I work out a lot my body craves healthier food and that eating crap when you have a very active lifestyle simply does not work very well. Your body needs a lot of potassium and protein, not to mention ready stores of glucose, when you're active. Our primitive ancestors would eat large amounts of protein after hunting and the stored glycogen could be converted to glucose during lean times. Modern man eats too often and too much and does not expend energy chasing down mastodons or elk.

I have worked in several professions which helped me overcome any form of stage fright and got me very used to being observed by all sorts of people: professional acting, art modelling, and exotic dancing. Seeing beautiful portraits or sculptures of yourself, or having men throw money at you and say how gorgeous you are, is a nice ego boost (that's not to glamorize that job too much, as it had its hair-raising moments as well!). But one must have confidence to begin to do this sort of thing in the first place. And that comes from within as much as it does from without. Not all that different from believing you are a good enough singer or musician to get up in front of people. It took me a few years to feel confidence as a singer, too and when I first started singing traditional music I knew I'd found a type of style that worked for me...but was not comfortable at first because it was still so new to me.

I had to give up running for a number of years after a succession of foot injuries. Coupled with the natural tendency to put on weight due to getting older and having a slightly slower metabolism, I have noticed I do feel a bit more self-conscious when performing on stage as a singer that I would have done years ago. I even sometimes feel this way when attending clothing-optional pagan gatherings, though compared to some I could be called downright skinny. But I think my own changing attitude has as much to do with aging (getting past the age where being sexy is the only thing that matters) as it does with having evolved from a size 5 to a size 10. I think the tendency to accept people exactly as they are is very similar in the pagan community as it is in the folk music community (and of course there is some overlap, although folk festivals do not tend to be clothing-optional! But I do find it strange when people assume this means pagans are "nudists" because that is really a completely different thing. I also have noticed that in the "nudist" community people tend to be leaner and more tanned).

I have noticed a tendency for the sort of discrimination mentioned in the rock/pop music world, too; women especially need to be gorgeous or at least thin to be seen as desirable. I have seen lead singers fired and replaced by skinnier (and sometimes younger) counterparts who weren't half the singers the first one was...merely because it's considered necessary these days to have a sexy front-person and any woman bigger than a twig is not considered sexy...at least a fit, more muscular aesthetic is now in vogue, but that's difficult to maintain, too. I saw a lot of unhealthy behavior aimed at weght control from dancers and athletes and actresses and strippers in my day...no thanks.

Video Killed the Radio Star, as the song says. I remember in the early days of MTV, there was a band that was popular in the alternative college radio circuit called Romeo Void. The singer was overweight but it didn't seem to matter...UNTIL the bands music videos were widely seen. Suddenly, everyone said "God, she's a dog!" This trend has only increased to the point where nowadays pop stars are built almost solely on physical image; men as well as women.

As for the advice given for weight loss, etc. I once read that the healthiest people who'd lived to ripe old age had one thing in common among their many habits (and some of them still smoked or drank daily, in moderation): they exercised every day and did soemthing to break a sweat and get their pulse up. I have found the best way to stay fit is to stay active. I can jog again now but my days of running six miles a day are probably gone. But hiking, walking, cross-country-skiiing, all are great exercise. I also fast occasionally, eating a fruit-only diet for 2-3 days. The Swedish swear by this. It rests the digestive organs and helps eliminate toxins in the body. It works best when the moon is waning. I also think, of all the "diet" systems discussed here, that food combining is the most sensible and the most adaptable to every human being (as has been pointed out, we are all different, and the high-protein or high-carb diet or all-grapefruit diet is effective for some but a disaster for others).

Best advice: get active if you're not, and don't eat processed foods.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: mg
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 10:23 PM

I think that day is essentially here..at least we know we should be looking in that direction. It gets into it in Metabolic Body Typing Diet or some such book..actually original research was by dentists I think..a guy in WInthrop, WA has a practice that does that..also subscribe to Dr. Mercola's free newsletter..he discusses it a lot..mercola.com

mg


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Alice
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM

Interesting segment last night on the news... genetics and nutrition, each person is unique, and our genes show what nutrients/diet is ideal for us.

CBS NEWS / DIET FOR YOUR GENES

I look forward to the day not far away when a genetic test can tell each of us what our personal optimum diet would be.


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 12:07 PM

During my lifetime I have gained and lost at least half a ton !!!

Now that I'm disabled and any amount of eating puts on weight because of lack of inability to exercise, I just go with the flow. What will be, will be. If it kills me quicker, so be it. I do watch cholesterol and fat intake--- medicate for it too. But my parental units and their surrogates have been dead for nearly 30 years. It was time for me get those voices out of my head telling me to get slim---get the lead out and all sorts of other tripe.   

All the best to you all no matter what size, shape or poundage.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM

Well, now, here's the thing. There is no one magical Eating Plan that will work for everyone on the planet, simply because everyone is different. I tried low-fat, high-carb, almost-vegetarian once, and guess what happened? I gained 20 pounds. I was hungry all the time, so I ate all the time. Even though I was eating what was considered "good stuff," it wasn't the right good stuff for me, and I was actually eating more calories.

Once I switched to more lean proteins and less processed foods, I got rid of the 20 pounds and it hasn't come back. Mister and I rarely eat food out of a box anymore.

Slim-Fast is a crock. The only reason it works for some people is that if you follow their plan, you consume less calories. That's all. It's full of sugar. I compared the nutritional info from Slim-Fast and Fat-Free Nestle Quik, and it's pretty much the same, except for the vitamins. If you had a glass of Fat-Free Nestle Quik and a multivitamin on the side... well, there you go.

Everyone has to find what works for them. And don't think in terms of "dieting" - think in terms of lifestyle changes. If you "diet" and lose weight, it's probably going to come back when you go off the "diet." If you want to get in shape, you have to make choices and decisions and changes, and that's hard for some people.

Anyway..... no matter what your size, believe in yourself. Believe in your music, and in what you do. Like I said before, you'll have the respect and admiration of the people who matter. The others can just go have a Coke and a smile. :-)


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: rich-joy
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 04:48 AM

"The dreaded Dr Atkins", as he was termed, made sense to me and I did lose weight on his low-carb diet, but, it all got too hard and too expensive!! (also, I can't seem to live without some Jasmine rice and Lindt chocolate, perhaps more than occasionally!!!).
The highly lucrative "high carb processed food" industry that has benefited so much from "The Big FAT Scare" has a lot to answer for, regarding both America AND Australia's obesity problems (Oz is right behind the USA in the statistics).

Leslie Kenton's (UK) book "The BIOGENIC Food Combining Diet" also made sense and answered a lot of questions for me - VERY interesting and recommended - and explains well why other diets don't work for many people. It's definitely NOT as "simple" as some of the above posters have so intolerantly stated!!!

My favourite TV cooking shows are the British "Two Fat Ladies" and the sensual, curvy, Goddess of the kitchen, Nigella Lawson. These women love food - and LIFE!!! - something many of us can learn from!!

To get back to the thread, Folkies can be intolerant and judgemental about quite a number of things, but I've never found other people's weight to be one of them!!!

Cheers! R-J


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Subject: RE: WEIGHT discrimination in music world...
From: Kudzuman
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:51 PM

Ever wonder why he calls himself Gargoyle? It's up for speculation of course. I see he has many intense ideas about this discussion. I guess obesity was the cause on Alan Watts death in his 50's while eating mostly rice and who was that great jogging guru who dropped dead of a heart attack while jogging, and shall I go on? We probably die more from the pollution and chemicals some (not myself) use daily like fabric softeners and margarine (ever look at the ingredients?) Then there is hairspray (spraying your head where the blood vessels are so close to the surface)which is like sealing your head with polyurethane. Hey, Garg, let's go out on the beach and tan our newly buff bodies so we can get skin cancer in a few years what say? Me? I'll just make some more music.

Kudzuman


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