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Tech: how could we write music via the cat

fogie 26 Feb 03 - 07:06 AM
DMcG 26 Feb 03 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,Jon 26 Feb 03 - 07:24 AM
DMcG 26 Feb 03 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Jon 26 Feb 03 - 07:27 AM
GUEST 26 Feb 03 - 07:27 AM
DMcG 26 Feb 03 - 07:28 AM
GUEST 26 Feb 03 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Jon 26 Feb 03 - 01:11 PM
Cluin 26 Feb 03 - 01:23 PM
Cluin 26 Feb 03 - 01:39 PM
Joe Offer 26 Feb 03 - 01:59 PM
katlaughing 26 Feb 03 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Jon 26 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM
Helen 26 Feb 03 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 27 Feb 03 - 12:17 AM
katlaughing 27 Feb 03 - 01:48 AM
GUEST,Jon 27 Feb 03 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Fogie 28 Feb 03 - 05:01 AM
DMcG 28 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM
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Subject: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: fogie
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:06 AM

Could it be possible to have a section of Mudcat dedicated to writing music down .I have asked for and been asked for tunes, which if there was a program set up I could have sent or received the dots. I know people send in ABC and if so could there be a translator attached to a media player to play the notes, surely there should be some program available to mouse the dots right onto the page. Has anyone assessed its feasibility?


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:14 AM

It's far more difficult than it sounds, for all kinds of reasons, some to do with the way music notation works and some to do with the way web servers work. Its much simpler to use a music editor designed for that purpose that can export MIDI or ABC and use that.


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:24 AM

I can't comment on it' feasability here in terms of processing and volume of trafic but...

It's quite easy to run abc conversion programs. I run abcm2ps and abc2midi as well as ghostscript to get graphics at folk info. Try this as an example of whet we can provide from abc in the database or this as an example of how we can just use a plain abc file with lots of tunes.

The one thing I did scrap is allowing an open conversion routine. This was because I had some bad abc causing abcmps to monopolise server resources for more than an hour. I work on a very tight budget (£20pm cf Mudcat at $400pm) and use a shared server and decided I can't afford even a slight chance of crashing things for all my ISPs clients on the same server.

Sites that do offer open conversions include concertina.net and JC's

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:26 AM

I may have misunderstood the question. I thought fogie was asking for a way on entering music onto Mudcat by clicking notes onto a web page, rather than having dots printed out.

Sorry for any confusion.


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:27 AM

Have just re-read. If you are talking something to make abc in a thread into something like a click here to play, I think that would be a hard one!!!

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:27 AM

LOL Dave, we are at it agian!!!!

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:28 AM

Maybe so, but we seem to be a minute apart here!


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:44 AM

I should also mention Forgeot Eric's recent attempt at an abc converter. He doesn't give MIDI that I know of but gives a choice of abcm2ps, abc2ps and yaps as converters and also reports errors in the abc.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:11 PM

Just given it a bit longer thought for dealing with a single ABC in a post. It would probably be easiest to have some tag on a post to indicate it contained abc to play. One simple "if" could then be used to determine if abc existed in a particular post to a thread and a link "click to play" could be given at the bottom of any such post.

All that would be needed then is to extract the abc - a search to find "X:" in the post and to take each subsequent line, say down to a blank line as that is supposed to be an abc end of file marker should do that, the abc written to a temp file, to run abc2midi and return content as a MIDI.

Maybe not an ideal solution but I'd think a relatively simple approach to what at first sounds a very difficult job.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:23 PM

I was thinking about starting a thread in which chords for fiddles are provided. Each submission would also provide a link to a simple midi file (just 2 tracks, melody and chords) to demonstrate the chord progression for each tune. I haven't found many sources out there on the web to provide individual tune chording.

It would just be a bare-bones reference type of chording, since accompaniment is a very subjective type of thing. This would be more at the beginner level. Everybody could add tunes and comment on their own variations.

I could put midis for any tunes I submit myself up on my own webspace. Any others could do the same on their own sites for theirs. Or someone could get some free Geocities or some other webspace and put them all on a site there.

Or is there already something like that here and I've missed it?


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:39 PM

I meant guitar chords for fiddle tunes, actually.

Fiddlers can't chord, technically. They can play double stops and arpeggios, but not full chords (unless your bow is really strange).


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 01:59 PM

Jon linked to concertina.net - they have an "ABC Convert-A-Matic" page that is very easy to use. This thread (click) has some tunes you can use for practice, and I'll post a tune below.
All you do is highlight and copy [CTRL-C] the ABC tune from the Mudcat message, and then go to the converter and paste [CTRL-V] it in and hit "submit."

Here's a tune to try:

X:1
T:Gentle Annie
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:140
K:D
F> E | D2 D2 E2 D>E| F d3-d2 c B | A3 B D D E F | E4 z2 F>E| D2 D2 E2 D> E| F d3-d2 c>B| A2 G F F E D C| D4 z2 A A B e3 d3 B| A4 F2 c d | F3 E D D E F | E4-E2 F>E| D2 D2 E2 D>E| F d3-d2 c B | A2 G F F E D C | D6|


Copy the entire part that's bold, from X:1 to the last note. The tune is from a questionable source, but it does work.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 03:25 PM

You mean all of this time I've resisted learning to do ABC AND passed up the chance to figure out the ABC that's been psoted, I could have been converting it?! Thanks, Jon. Thanks, Joe! I just tried it and it was great!

Really DO learn something new on here every day!

kat


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM

kat the only thing to be a little wary of with the tune-a-tron, at least the last ime I looked, was that it runs abc2ps to produce graphics. It's a little behind the times - abcm2ps is the better choice for that bit for online conversions.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: Helen
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 04:11 PM

So, how does Alan of Oz's MidiText programme fit into this discussion? Does it do something different to what is being discussed here? I'm a bit confused.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 12:17 AM

There are A LOT MORE opportunities than ABC you have recently passed up LaughKat. The year is still young, why don't you make this one a year of change and commitment?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 01:48 AM

Thanks, Jon, I will look into the other one.


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 10:53 AM

Helen, Alan's program was an attempt to provide a means of posting a MIDI and an ABC to Mudcat. MIDI is a binary file and can't be posted as text to the forum but Alan's program provides a means to convert it into text to post and then back again. I quite liked it but these days consider abc to be a much more useful format for songs and prefer dedicated abc programs, either on line programs or for personal use.

The one problem with posting abc to a forum like this is the dotted notation. As in the example Joe gave above, note lengths can be indicated by angle brackets (< and >) as a short hand. My own work around for that is a checkbox like the ones at the bottom of the post box here. If checked, if converts any angle brackets to the HTML symbols (&lt; and &gt;). the problem there of course is that something like bold (<b>) won't work in that post.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: GUEST,Fogie
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 05:01 AM

Well done Joe. That's a good idea, and it works. I've never got that fardown the line to convert ABC to dots before. And now a media player link?


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Subject: RE: Tech: how could we write music via the cat
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM

The same site does it. Once you have converted the ABC to music notation, there is a [MIDI muic file] link above the notation. Click that, and there you are!


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