BS: The Mudcat Group Mind

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,Daisy Duck
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:41 PM

This is hilarious! Samantha, what on earth has happened to your English since 1998? At least try to spell conscious the same way each time.

Wasn't there a practical joke played here about Mudcat closing down on April Fool's day a few years ago? Some people fell for it hook line and sinker. This one simply isn't real.

Quack

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:41 PM

OK, I got it wrong. My abject apologies to Samantha. If I had done what OldPossum so wisely did- looked up her posting history- I might have responded more properly. (And no. It was not 'broken' English that set me off- as a tutor I greatly admire the ability to communicate in a language not one's own. )

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:25 PM

Guilty until proven innocent? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:18 PM

Kat I don't think you personally insulted her. But perhaps giving her the benefit of the doubt would have been more productive.

Treating Samantha as a person encourages more people and more civil conversation. The critcisms and suspicions are just troll food. If anyone wants to prove how good they are at spotting trolls, why not just do it in a PM? That way people still have fun, trolls aren't encouraged and no one is hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM

Samantha, welcome, or welcome back, to the Mudcat. I'm not sure there is really a group mind...in fact, I often think that some of our members and many of our "Guests" have no mind at all. However, your opinion is welcome, and some people will be interested in an intelligent discussion on a different topic. However, there are others whose comments are intended only to annoy. Please ignore those individuals...the best way is to jump right over their postings...and enjoy discussing your perspective with those who really want to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:13 PM

Well put, JtS.

I remember the vile treatment recieved by karolina and Lena (wherever they are) for their broken, "accented" English, and Ebbie, GUEST, Daisy Duck, Kat, etc. seem to be following the same pattern harpgirl and... I forget his name, Canadian dude... used back then. What bothers you paranoid people SO much about being misled? Are you that insecure, so afraid of being tricked, that you're willing to alienate a newcomer just to say "Aha! I told you so!" the one time it is a "troll?" It's sad, really.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM

Samantha is not a troll,
Samantha-I like your song, you've obviously read some R.D Laing!
If anyone is interested, R.D Laing, or Ronnnie Laing was a Psychiatrist, he died in 1989, I particulary reccomend a book of his called Knots.

John

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,Samantha
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:05 PM

What I would like you to know about me is it doesnt matter what you think about me! :) What matters is that people can talk about the ideas here that I talk about, the feelings and the things in the group shadow that so many are afraid of here and in their own shadows too. If I am a troll, good. If I am not a troll, good. Either way is not the reason for my remarks about the Mudcat Group Mind. Mudcat Group Mind works like the group mind of my Russian immigrant groups too and they are very suspicous groups too! :) So talk about trolls if you want. Event he talk about trolls tells you about what the Mudcat people are afraid of, because what is a troll and what can they do to you really? Not very much because they aren't one of the people who can really hurt you just like immigrants aren't the ones who can really hurt you that people are afraid of, like the terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: OldPossum
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

Unless I am mistaken, Samantha is a Mudcatter from way back who has now returned to us.

Samantha's old postings (click)

Samantha, you are not only welcome, you are welcome back!

I have no comment on the subject of this thread, since I don't pretend to know anything about psychology. You do seem to have a point, though. And for the record, I support Joe Offer's recent efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

Jack, thanks, but I haven't insulted anyone, esp. grossly. I said I reserve judgement, then addressed the rest of you. If anyone has insulted anyone, I suppose Ebbie might have with her comments. I suspect, though, she posted thinking along the same lines. IF I am right, you all are just feeding it because you've just been sucked back in. Believe me, I know of what I speak, from many years experience at the Forum.

It doesn't really matter. This one will go on and on, post after post, while everyone debates about it and good music threads fall off. I won't be saying anymore in this thread. Have at it and have fun.

In the meantime, if you want to hear a neat interview and hear some great bluegrass, check out the thread on Homer Ledford and Cabin Creek.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:56 PM

katlaughing - PM
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:46 PM

You and me, both, Jeri! I'm reserving judgement, for now, but I'd almost bet the farm you all are being wound up, again. Something just too disingenuous about "Samantha's" postings.

Kat I'm addressing this to you because I feel that you will take it as constructive criticism rather than any kind of intentional slight.

I'm wondering if I have failed to make my point.

Please consider this:
It does no harm to give people the benefit of the doubt.
If the person is a Troll, trying to "out" him/her only reinforces the behavior.
If the Person is NOT a troll, then the criticisms on this thread are very very rude.

If Samantha is a troll, you've made her happy, if she is not many of you have grossly insulted her.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:51 PM

hEloo, this is folk music discushion site, not proper spelling site, people are woried to much about spelling, ebbie says 2youre ideas would be better if you spelled properley", so does this mean that if jesus or somebody like that came, and gave you a message, you would ignore it, if it was not spelled properley? i wonder about this!
I can just imagine="get lost jesus, you cant spelling properley"!

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:46 PM

Samanth said "I think I should shut up now because what I said is enough to hear from me."

That is probably the wise thing to do, to let the fishies react and see where they go. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:46 PM

You and me, both, Jeri! I'm reserving judgement, for now, but I'd almost bet the farm you all are being wound up, again. Something just too disingenuous about "Samantha's" postings.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:43 PM

Samantha You are an immigrant from the largest country in the world. I'm from number two, Canada. I see what you mean about the terrorist paranoia. What you have said, about the worries about the terrorism being the cause of current MudCat problems, proves to me that you have not been reading the MudCat for a "longgggggg time". Our friend, who pretends to make salient points while also pretending to be a Disney Cartoon character has said that, but he/she is obviously oblivious to that fact that those problems predate 9/11 by a Longgggggg time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,Samantha
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:39 PM

Thank you for showing kindness Jack the SAilor. When you are trying to help things all that matters is that people are talking to each other about the things they don't like to hear about and say to each other. That is why I think I should shut up now because what I said is enough to hear from me and now we can hear what others want to say about the Mudcat Group Mind and the shadow of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:36 PM

Those of us with a sense of humour and the ability to laugh at ourselves should find this site both interesting and amusing. It should also help with the group mind concept.

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:35 PM

Now suspecting intrigue, Ok James Bond, that is fine, but Gordon Liddy... the man should get a license to use the bathroom...

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:32 PM

Another cause of tension is pointless intrigue and paranoia. This thread is a perfect example. Anyone who comes here new and does not conform to a myriad of unwritten "rules" can be accused of being a "member" playing silly games like trying to "flush out" trolls by behaving like trolls. Of course these accusations are sometime warranted because some "members" apparantly do engage in this counterproductive behavior. I guess some of the Brits think they are James Bond and some of the Yanks think they are Gordon Liddy.

Samantha, I am happy to welcome you to the MudCat. Please do not be scared off by this bizarre behavior. Most folks here are sensible and kind. Its just that when you have a party and invite EVERYONE, then you get the good with the bad.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:31 PM

Whatever else you notice about the Muddie, you must surely be amazed at the astonishing genius often exhibited here; perhaps that explains its attraction to nonplayas...

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:28 PM

I wodner if it's posibble for one person to have a group mind...
(I'm enjoying this. Please keep going.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,Samantha
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:27 PM

Thank you Jack the Sailor. The words 'unconsious collusion' are ones psychologists would use they arent my own. But I see what you say. The thesis is not my own either but ideas I have read that seem to work very well to describe the way it works many times in my own groups I work with, Russian immigrants. Many of them have many fears about each other, and this is not a good time for immigrants in the US too so for now it is getting worse. Like I said maybe this is true for the Mudcat group mind too right now because everyone is so afraid of war and terrorists and often those feelings are about us immigrants instead of the real people who can really hurt you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM

I have no problem with your writing. It would be a little easier to read with Uppercase letters at the begining of the sentences, but your point is well expressed.

I think there are many causes of the tension here. I like your thesis about a group mind. There are a group of people at the core of the MudCat that can be likened to a school of fish. Everyone of them seems to express the same thoughts at the same time. I think a lot of folks, when they see this, imagine conspiracy and colusion when in fact the "colusion", if it can be called that, is due to a sharing of similar beliefs and values over time.

This accounts for the accusations of a "MudCat clique" and also accounts for the vehiment denials that there is such a clique.

I'm not sure I agree that "fear" is the reason theat folks turn to Joe about policing. I will say that this group is very diverse, with lots of differing opinions on how the site should be run. For Joe, it must be like herding cats.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM

I'm sure that our beloved John9 was grossly offended at the poor spelling and grammar! :-) So, why the attack? If we were judged on our spelling haff ob uss wold be cicked ot a here bye nowe.

Maybe it's our group unconscious? Wooooooo. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,Samantha
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:12 PM

I am very sorry again to everyone. yes, that one is me too. To the Guest person who asked me, what I am trying to talk about is writings that begin with C.G. Jung, but these ideas are written about by many others too.. I know there are many places on the itnernet you can read about these ideas but I have no special one to give you, so I am sorry to you too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:11 PM

Prittle prattle, shake the rattle
Pretend it's not a staff
It's coy, your ploy, I do enjoy
Your mock ironic laugh!

Orders, borders, Overlorders
Seems we've been it all
And you are true with little 'to do'
But witness, hear this thrall

A muse will choose no win or loose
But benefits conjoining
Repair the dare, from glassy stare
Ungird a loving loining

This 'team' will dream through flame and steam
Of peaceful days consenting
That strive alive, love to derive
Against odds unrelenting
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:00 PM

So is GUEST Samantha the same as GUEST 02 Mar 03 - 02:35 PM, and is that the same as GUEST 02 Mar 03 - 02:43 PM ?

It makes it easier to follow a discussion when you know that.

I rather took the suspicious tone of the posts from Ebbie and Daisy as an indication of suspicion that someone was playing silly buggers again. Which very likely was not the case, but there has been a fair amount of that stuff recently, and this does appear to be the first ever post under that name.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 03:00 PM

(Jumping up and down applauding Lupus, singing) 'If you can't understand my bad Englrish it's because you are stupid, Stupid'

Actrary ain't the real reason they cannot comprehend creative grammar, something about having a history of Grade Z in Englrish Compwehennsion?

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM

Ya got me, G,DD. "Samantha" is my middle name... :(

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,Daisy Duck
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:54 PM

I THOUGHT that first post might have been you Lepus. Glad to see you back mate. I think the current big problem with the Mudcat Group Mind is that there's nothing on telly worth watching at the moment. Give them hell big boy.

Daisy

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:45 PM

Nah, GUEST,Samantha, you shouldn't shut up. Ebbie and "Daisy Duck" should. Your post was polite and constructive, and easy to follow, at least for individuals of normal intelligence. Their posts were crude personal attacks, directed towards you for no apparent reason other than your GUEST status. But, hey, they do help prove your point, don't they? :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:43 PM

"...group unconsious here seems very stuck here in its own shadow self..."

Could you expand please on 'shadow self'? Or just tell me to look it up on the internet...either way I'd be interested to know more about this.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:37 PM

Hey people, e.e.cummings didn't use proper punctuation either ... kinda like an artistic trademark, or poetic license? How about giving Samantha the benefit of the doubt anyway, for the sake of goodwill?

I do know what you mean about a 'Group Mind' Samantha. Sometimes I wish I could give Mudcat a good long cleansing 'smudge' with sage and sweetgrass. But it's bad manners to clean up other people's houses without being invited to do so, isn't it?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:35 PM

Ebbie, I'm very sorry for my writing. I am Russian, and when I write fast and don't think about it, I write like this. I come here mostly to find what is here Russian folk songs. I do group work with Russian immigrants now living here in the US. I wasn't meaning to offend, but to offer another way of looking at what seems to be a problem with this group I see when I come here. I'm sorry for my bad writing, you are right to be angry with me for it. No excuse but a laziness on Sunday! I should shut up now, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,Daisy Duck
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:28 PM

Other than that, and the fact that you've obviously been around here for a longgggggg time, Welcome. Must be hard as hell to purposely write that badly.

Daisy

Subject: RE: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:21 PM

Your viewpoint would have more credibility, to me, if your reasoning, writing, spelling and punctuation were more professional.

Subject: BS: The Mudcat Group Mind
From: GUEST,Samantha
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 02:13 PM

i don't come here much, but it seems to be there is a lot of strife here right now, maybe to do with war, maybe not. i think a lot about the group mind in my work, so i can share some things for those who wish to hear. i think there is much of what is somtimes called unconcious collusion happen hhere. at first it feels quite attractive to us, when it first begins to happen in the group. we first become attracted to the specific group, whose group unconscious matches some part of our individual uynconscious, something that gives us something in common with other group members. the group's unconscious is what carries the group's history and culture. so unconscious collusion is when individual's unconscious is in communication with each other member of the group, and collectively this network of links of group history and cultures constitutes the group unconscious.

so here at Mudcat, the important group processes are discussions abut folk music and subjects between people who share both the group history and culture, and also those who don't (new people).   sometimes what happens in these cases is small, informal subgroups form, and they will discuss group issues among themselves away from the eyes and ears of the main group. this is usually a sign of low trust in the main group by the subgroup. this dynmic can create blocks to develpment of trust within the maingroup.

experiences show though, that in intensive groups when these breaches of trust by subgroup of the main group arent shared, main group members are aware of them at unconscious levels, and feeling the pullingaway of subgroups.   oftn this knowing/feeling makes main group members start fantasies and feelings which start affect communications in the whole group.

so then, what happens next. ususally issues come up in the group unconscious which provokes anxiety in many in the group, and it overwhelms them. instead of staying focused on group goals, ie here is music discussions, some anxious members fall into fighting among themselves, some ususally strong people suddenly feel passive and wanting to be told what to do. so this group members are now caught up in unconscious collusion, they think this is what they MUST do to protect themselves against those that they felt is a threat. here in Mudcat, that fear and anxiety seems to get projected alot on people who are guests.

so my opinion, which no one asks for of cuorse :) is this. nothing will be made rihgt with this group of people here and now until people are concious of what is truly making them anxious and fear each other. question is, how to bring these axnieties to the level of the groups conscious mind, to get everyone who comes here, not feeling the group fears unconciously.

seems like more and more people here are wanting Joe to be a policemen for them and make them safe here. when this happens in group unconscious mind, we know there is much, much fear and anxious feelings in group and in indivduals. this seems to me to be because many in this group and individiual members, have deep feelings and fears of shadow self in themselves and others here,including group unconsious here seems very stuck here in its own shadow self, but without knowing it in the consious group mind, or even most individual minds.

this is only just my opinion, but at least i have one! not like those others who have none in other threads! :)

so maybe Mudcat people will never be able to accept its unconsious group shadow because many not want to know or accept anything about it. so it is thouse sorts of subgroups which just keep attacking those people they project fears and anxieties on over andover for the whole group unconcious. they think they are protecting themselves, you see. pyscholigsts call this fight/flight. sometimes instead the anxious ones just withdraw especially to new people. but mostly the fearing subgroup of people keep projecting fearrs of the ones they maybe think they know for a long time here or know from somewhere else, but then aren't so sure they know who that persons or guests or members are for sure. so they keep attacking and withdrawing, again and again .

so, that is what psychologists call group unconcious collusion. becuase i love this music site, i will give a good song about this very thing for you all here:

I'm looking through you.
What did I know?
I thought I knew you.
What did I know?
You don't look different, but you have changed.
I'm looking through you.
You're not the same.
CHORUS
Why, tell me why, did you not treat me right?
Love has a nasty habit of disappearing overnight.

anyway, i wish you all every luck because it is a vey hard dynamic in the Mudcat Group Mind to break.

samantha