Martin Carthy aged 70?

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 10:35 PM

That "Furze Field" is a good song. Sadly I always have to explain it's bawdy when I sing it or no one here would realize.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: RolyH
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 05:45 PM

Sleeve notes from 'Byker Hill'

"The notion of identifying intercourse with ordnance,as in The Bonny Black Hare,is as old as Cupid with his bow and arrow.Just as old is the intuition connecting the images of love and hunting,as in the jokey southern counties called the'Furze Field.Restoration bucks were fond of making songs on this theme but were only annexing an ancient (perhaps sacred)piece of folk symbology.The song seems rare although it has been reported in an unmistakably British form in upper Arkansas.
This version was collected fron an Irish labourer,Mr Murrow,at Walberswick,Suffolk,in 1938.His tune is a member of a widespread melody family called 'Lough Lein'but his rhythm was not very clear.Some versions he sang in a standard 9/8(3+3+3)others a bit curtailed into a 'mixed'8/8 (3+2+3)"
MC

Still none the wiser.

Andrew,just click on 'Membership' at the top and away you go!.It's easy.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 05:15 PM

As I said Shuffy I am not a computer person ! and it seems my maths is a bit weak alinact.

And I like your response too Abby - Im getting to enjoy being here. How do I become a mudcatter rather than a Guest ??

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

The interesting thing is that the Randolph text and Carthy's are nearly identical. The date changes from 14th of May (Carthy) to 16th of May (Randolph) but it's pretty close. Randolph gives anecdotal info dating the version to about 1900. His tune, though is singabler, he gives "Villikins" (Sweet Betsy) which scans pretty well. Almost.

When you consider the amazing range of Carthy's material and the high quality of his versions, it's no surprise that he searches pretty widely for material. You'd be hard pressed to find a book of songs he hasn't studied.

But I remember now what he said and agree that he got the song from Lloyd and it was Lloyd who got it from Randolph. So said Carthy. (I'm pretty sure.)

Well, since we're fessing up to these things and since I collect so many other people's dates, I might as well officially admit I was born Elul 17, 5700.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM

That's my understanding, too. Lloyd recorded it himself (it appears on The Bird in the Bush, re-issued as Topic TSCD479), commenting: "It was got from an [Irish] immigrant potato-lifter near Walberswick, but he learnt it in England. Vance Randolph found a version among the Ozark hillfolk, too coarse to publish". That was written long before the Randolph texts were published, of course, and the only set listed in the Roud Index that mentions a date (the 16th of May) is one that he collected. Lloyd was often mysterious about his sources, or named singers no one else knew anything about and who couldn't be traced.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

I think Martin got 'Bonny Black Hare' from Bert Lloyd.......

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: GUEST,alinact
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 11:51 AM

Well, actually, he'd be 61 - but who's counting.

Allan

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM

"The day-month-year format is based on a logical progression, while the month-day-year is not"
yep...sure...makes good sense! And beginning NOW, Mar. 6, 2003, I will be sure to not take chances..*grin*

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 09:25 AM

19410521

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 08:06 AM

You may well be right Abby. I wasn't claiming Sir Martin wrote it. I am but a humble listener and occasional singer who once shared a railway compartment (those were the days) and a very occasional folk club floor with the great man. However I would bow to the better knowledge about the source of songs to mudcatters clearly better informed than I.

Still if he got the words from the US does that add more weight to the DD/MM school of thought or is it either cos Legman Randolph got it from UK sources or as Bill D says it is just that it sounds better in songs that way. I dunno.

Of course in computing circles, in which I certainly do not revolve, don't they use YYYYMMDD which has one advantage as it gets you closer to numerical sequence?

So to get back to the thread Martin Carthy was born in computing terms on 19412105, in US was born 5/21/1941 and in UK 21/5/1941. Either way, what is now clearly established is that he is 60 not 70.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 10:17 PM

Here's a pragmatic thing what way I handle this...if the date is 5/21, I'm just guessing most people will reckon it's likely not the 5th day of the 21st month. If I'm posting a Happy! for today, I reckon most people will know today is 3/5 and not 5/3. Otherwise, I stick in the month spelled out.

But GUEST,Andrew, I have to let you know I think you're wrong in this case. Memory may be failing but I believe Sir Martin got the words from the US - from Legman-Randolph.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 06:29 PM

It's perfectly simple. The day-month-year format is based on a logical progression, while the month-day-year is not. When trying to communicate in an international forum, we all need to remember that local approaches are open to misinterpretation. Just name the month; then the order doesn't matter in the least.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 04:50 PM

*smile*...I will sure admit that when singing about dates, it sounds better that way. Just not totally convinced about everyday usage.

Some Brits seem particularly anxious to convince us that we are doing it 'wrong', not just differently. Since all those about me do the month first, I probably should stick with it for now.(As I say, I could adjust to any decision...and it WOULD be convenient if there were an international standard. I wonder what it would take?)

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 02:02 PM

Or 'Brigg Fair' - - 'It was on the 5th. of August....'

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:28 AM

If its any help on the DD/MM or MM/DD question ask Sir Martin himself :

First line of Bonny Black Hare is certainly not

On May 14th at the dawn of the day !


So 14th May has it


Andrew

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 07:14 PM

so wht, I'm 73, born Aug 25, 1929

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

hmmm..ok, I guessed that it might be both for many people....

(I have a clock/calendar program that allows me to choose between 5-6 different formats, and as long as I use the 'name' of the month, there's no problem, it's only in dates like 11/8/03 that any of us get confused. I, personally, could adapt to one international standard...if ANYone could agree on what it is to be!..(I guess the UN has other things to consider, huh?)

(I could adapt to metrics also, but the howls of protest from some seem to have killed THAT idea....we in the USA will no doubt be using feet and inches and miles forever)

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: JennyO
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 07:14 AM

In Oz, we write it the same way as in the UK, and when I say a date, I would say "it's the 21st of May" more often than "May 21st", but not always.

Jenny

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM

greg and other UK folk...when you say the date 'out loud', what do you say?

"he was born on 21 May"
"he was born on May 21st"
"he was born on the 21st of May"
?? or other...

when asked the date, I 'tend' to say "It's March 4th" or whatever, and not "It's four March"

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

Quite right, Greg.....day, month and year!

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:51 PM

Never!

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM

21/5/1941!! he's English.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 10:49 AM

Always ask the Happy! file. Poor old Martin was born 5/21/1941.

Still spry, too.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: breezy
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 06:11 AM

Never believe what you read in the papers,especially freebees.
Martin will play the St.Albans Folk Club on Friday 12th December.
Reserve your seats now.£7.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 08:57 PM

He just had his 60th a few years ago. I believe it was his birthday the weekend of Old Songs Festival 2000.

Subject: RE: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM

Did they say he was 70? No, he was born during WW II. He's about 60.

Subject: Martin Carthy aged 70?
From: brid widder
Date: 02 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM

Sheffield free paper METRO reviewed Martin as playing as part of Sheffields intervarsity fest. Didnt know he'd aged that fast!!!!