Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Carter Family copyrights?

Related threads:
Is there a Carter Family Songbook? (37)
Carter Family and copyrights (11)
'In the Shadow of Clinch Mountain' boxset errors? (1)
The first song of the Carter Family (22)
Carter Family story as graphic novel (9)
New Carter Family Website! (10)
Carter Family (23)
Maybelle Carter in Concert, April 1963 (3)
Folklore: Carter Family Home (11)
PBS Carter family documentary (6)
original carter family on youtube (16)
Music History: Carter Family question (7)
Carter Family Recording Dates & Catalog (17)
The Carter Family story on BBC Radio (14)
Obit: Janette Carter (January 2006) (11)
Carter Family on PBS Amer. Exp. 9 May 05 (22)
Maybelle Carter's Gibson L-5 Guitar For Sale/SOLD (25)
Carter Fold 2004' - Carter Family (1)
Carter Family site (Carter Family Songbook) (5)
Obit: Death of Helen Carter (4-Jun-1998) (6)
Carter Family Tribute (4)
Review: Carter Family Biography (18)
Article on Carter Family (9)
New Carter Family CD Set (7)
Carter Family sound ? (1)
The Carter Family: Shaping My Music (7)
Carter Family Interview on NPR (2)
Anita Carter Dies (7)
Carter Family (9)
Looking for Play Carter Style Guitar (1)


Joe Offer 05 Mar 03 - 07:05 PM
Fortunato 05 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM
Fortunato 05 Mar 03 - 08:32 PM
Fortunato 05 Mar 03 - 08:38 PM
Fortunato 05 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM
Malcolm Douglas 05 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM
Malcolm Douglas 05 Mar 03 - 09:08 PM
dick greenhaus 05 Mar 03 - 10:21 PM
Richie 05 Mar 03 - 11:34 PM
Joe Offer 06 Mar 03 - 12:50 AM
Fortunato 06 Mar 03 - 08:30 AM
Richie 06 Mar 03 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,the happy otter 06 Mar 03 - 09:20 AM
Joe Offer 06 Mar 03 - 07:42 PM
Bsondahl 07 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM
Bsondahl 07 Mar 03 - 04:49 PM
Joe Offer 08 Mar 03 - 10:45 PM
Fortunato 09 Mar 03 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,the happy otter 10 Mar 03 - 08:07 AM
Fortunato 10 Mar 03 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,happy otter 10 Mar 03 - 10:22 AM
Fortunato 11 Mar 03 - 09:31 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:05 PM

In the Licensing songs thread, I asked about obtaining a license to record a Carter Family song, "In the Valley of the Shenandoah."



Happy Otter replied that the Bear Family collection of Carter Family recordings has a booklet that explains that A.P. Carter copyrighted a lot of songs that should be in the public domain. Here's what I found at http://countrymusic.about.com/library/blam2000b.htm:
The story is told of the Carter Family's "discovery" in 1927 by RCA Records field recording supervisor Ralph Peer. They were directed by Alvin Pleasant (A.P.) Carter, but were dominated by the brilliant singing of his wife Sara (who played guitar and autoharp) and the stunning guitar playing of her cousin Maybelle Addington (who married A.P.'s brother Ezra). With the advent of the Carter Family (and Jimmy Rodgers, also "discovered" by Peer), country music leaped from the string band tradition to focus on distinctive vocals with instrumental backing, putting the music on competitive footing with other popular styles. As Ed Kahn's liner notes explain, A.P. was a master at scouring British and Appalachian balladry, 19th century music, spirituals, even blues, looking for songs in the public domain that he could attach his name to for copyright purposes, a strategy pioneered by Peer. The Carter Family had become established stars by May 1935, when the first 17 tracks here were recorded during a week of sessions in New York. Many of these sides, especially "Can The Circle Be Unbroken," "I'm Thinking Tonight Of My Blue Eyes," "River Of Jordan" and "The Storms Are On the Ocean" were catalog staples, issued and reissued on ARC's Banner, Melotone, Oriole, Perfect, Romeo, Conqueror, Okeh, and Columbia labels. The final three tracks were recorded in Chicago in October 1940, less than three years before the Carter Family's final performance together. Maybelle, of course, went on to tour and record with her daughters Anita, Helen and June -- who married Carl Smith in 1952 (their daughter Carlene was born in 1955) and later wed Johnny Cash in 1968.
the song my friend wants to record is "In the Valley of the Shenandoa" (sic - this is the "Legal Title"), which the Carter Family recorded in 1941. Is it traditional, or is the copyright valid?

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Fortunato
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM

I'll try to check Joe, but the short answers are, one I think Peer Music owns rights to everything they ever recorded except Cannonball Blues. Two, I remember that part of one refrain of the song you mention as "...in the valle of Shenandoah" but I don't think that's the title. I'll be back with the answer usless trumped by Masato or others...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Fortunato
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:32 PM

I think it's "I am longing for Old Virginia."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Fortunato
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:38 PM

I was wrong, I think you mean:

Mid The Green Fields Of Virginia
Mid the green fields of Virginia
In the valle of Shanadoah
There's an ivy covered homestead that I love
With it's white old fashioned chimney
And it's simple homelike air
Tis the home of my dear parents now above

There's a peaceful cottage there
A happy home so dear
My heart is longing for them day by day
Where I spent life's golden hours
In the veil of Shanadoah
Mid the green fields for Virginia far away

Mid the green fields of Virginia
Stands an old mill by the stream
I once wandered to that spot to sing and play
And how often I would throw the stone
Into the pebbling brook
I would dream someday it'd carry me away

Recorded 2/23/32 Atlanta, Ga


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Fortunato
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM

If this is the song they want then HFA, Harry Fox has it to be licensed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM

It helps if everybody is talking about the same song. For details, see Song texts of the original Carter Family. You'll find it as IN THE VALLEY OF THE SHENANDOAH.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 09:08 PM

'Mid the Green Fields of Virginia (in the Vale of Shenandoah, incidentally, can be seen at Levy: sheet music dated 1898, "Words and Music by Charles K. Harris".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 10:21 PM

There's really no such thing as a "valid" copyright--unless a court has upheld it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Richie
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:34 PM

Joe,

There's a song entitled, "In the Valley of Kentucky" that was published around 1900. I might help to check the lyrics to see if there is a connection.

-Richie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: ADD: In the Valley of the Shenandoah (Carter)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 12:50 AM

Here are the lyrics in question, from the site Malcolm linked to. They're on the Rounder CD, The Carter Family: Last Sessions.

IN THE VALLEY OF THE SHENANDOAH

As I sit alone tonight in the stillness of the night
I picture happy scenes of long ago
Of a maiden fair and bright who is seeping there tonight
In the valley of the Shenandoah Ridge

It was in the month of June when the roses were in bloom
When I held her in my arms and softly said
"Darling, in the coming spring I'll be coming back again
To the valley of the Shenandoah Ridge"

[INSTRUMENTAL BREAK]

When I left her all alone in her Shenandoah home
She promised she'd be waiting there for me
But the angels came along and took her from our home
From the valley of the Shenandoah Ridge

It was in the month of June when the roses were in bloom
When I held her in my arms and softly said
"Darling, in the coming spring I'll be coming back again
To the valley of the Shenandoah Ridge"

[INSTRUMENTAL BREAK]

When the evening shadows fall, in memory I recall
The pledge when I gave to her a ring
"Darling in the coming spring I'll be coming back again
To the valley of the Shenandoah Ridge"

It was in the month of June when the roses were in bloom
When I held her in my arms and softly said
"Darling, in the coming spring I'll be coming back again
To the valley of the Shenandoah Ridge"

Recorded Oct 14, 1941

Harry Fox Agency says the legal name of the song is "In the Valley of the Shenandoa," and the songwriter is A.P. Carter. Publisher is APRS, and the contact is Peermusic, www.peermusic.com. Carter and Peer registered copyrights for lots of songs, so that makes every Carter copyright somewhat suspect.
So, is this one really traditional? There are lots of good leads here. I'll keep looking. Thanks a lot.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Fortunato
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 08:30 AM

Oh, no, aiiiiiiie, wrong again. Oh, well. Sorry for the incorrection, Joe. I was not familiar with "In the vale of shenandoa". Glad you found the right one.
chance


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 08:37 AM

Joe,

"In the Valley of Kentucky" was published in 1903 and it is not the same song. However, the sentiment is the same.

-Richie


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: GUEST,the happy otter
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 09:20 AM

I don't have at hand the book that goes with the Bear Family set (got left in the wrong place, sorry) so I won't be able to answer the question till this weekend but I know the song; it's on disc #11 (of 12; the last one is mostly interviews) and Wolfe has the words as "valley of the Shenandoah-Ry" which never made sense to me. I'll get back with Wolfe's information about the song ASAP unless somebody can anticipate me. . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 07:42 PM

Well, we decided to go ahead and get the licenses from songfile.com - cost us $82 per song for 1000 copies, and the process was quite straightforward.
Now that she's decided to go "legal" with the recording license, I can tell you my friend/neighbor/boss who's doing the recording is Debby McClatchy. She's also recording a Delmore Brothers song, "Blow Yo' Whistle Freight Train." There was another one she asked about that will be on the CD, Cruel Willie.
The name of the CD is Chestnut Ridge, and it should be out June 1.
Thanks for your help, everybody.
-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Bsondahl
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM

Sorry for the thread creep, but,
This songfile.com (appears to be part of Harry Fox) sounds like a reasonable way to become legal for small timers, so I was looking into Alabama Jubilee (Cobb-Yellen, 1915) as a sample, and the site said, "This song is not available for mechanical licensing." There are several recent recordings of it, so I'm guessing what they mean is it's public domain... Is this correct?
TIA
Brad Sondahl
sondahl.com


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Bsondahl
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 04:49 PM

I'm kind of getting frustrated with the songfile site. It doesn't tell copyright dates, which would help a lot in picking which song with the same name it might be. Then I looked for "Done Laid Around," which the source was attributed "Trad. Arr. Rowan" (actually several of the attributions including Pentangle's mentioned "Trad." but I'm guessing that was their best guess at the time). If you select that song, it sounds like the royalties would go to Peter Rowan, and I'm pretty sure he just did an arrangement of it.
Anyway, for really finding out copyright info, I think the US Gov site:
http://www.copyright.gov/records/index.html
is better. But I looked for "In the Valley of the Shenandoah" and nothing came up in the search. Which might be an argument it's P.D.
There, I'm back on topic.
Brad Sondahl


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 03 - 10:45 PM

Hi, Brad - if you can prove it was written in 1923 or earlier, you're pretty much home free. After that, the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension kicked in (in the US), so we'll be dead before songs after 1923 go into public domain. Another fine example of Corporate Welfare.

We've had a thread on Done Laid Around. It's attributed to Paul Clayton, but apparently he got it from traditional sources. I suppose it's best to discuss that song in the other thread.
-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Fortunato
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 08:07 AM

Bsondahl, Oasis, the company I'm doing the CD with, tells me that the only ones in HFA songfile you have to license are those that have one entry (writer) listed. And Micah does this enough to know what he's doing. regards, chance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: GUEST,the happy otter
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 08:07 AM

got the Charles Wolfe book and opened it up, all excited, to see what they say about Valley of the Shenandoah. . . NOTHING! No, not a word! I suspect that Dr. Wolfe was Pressed for Time-- all twelve songs in the last session (October 1941) were discussed in ONE page; in contrast to earlier sessions. . . sorry!

Fortunato, it would be nice if what you say were true; recently paid the hairy fox $80 (plus some processing fee) for a song with three writers from 1935. . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Fortunato
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 08:59 AM

Happy Otter, I can always be wrong! But was that one ENTRY? In other words if the song has one entry and its writers are Heart, Shatner and Marx, then, yes, you must. But if it's three different entries, that is three different persons claiming arrangements, then I believe you need not. Does that sound like your understanding?
regards, fortunato


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: GUEST,happy otter
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:22 AM

Hadn't thought of it that way and yes, I misunderstood you. What you describe makes lots of sdense: if three different people are claiming the same song then each one is claiming their own arrangement & you need not pay anybody. Contrariwise, if one song has three authors (as was the case for us) then we paid-- one of them was Von Tilzer and I had no idea he had survived till 1935! I would love to check with some of the authors we paid $$ to and see if they actually GOT their money. . .


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Carter Family copyrights?
From: Fortunato
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:31 AM

Happy Otter, yes, we're in agreement. If the people whose songs I am licensing were alive I think I would have sent them the money instead of HFA, but...good luck.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 15 December 4:19 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.