BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?

Subject: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 03:05 AM

Well? Are we going to entertain this notion? Surely *someone* can snap their fingers and break the spell of agression this country is under! Anyone got wind of new hopefuls? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: BlueJay
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 05:05 AM

Thomas- Nope, not as I see it from this side of the pond. The Democratic candidates are mostly mediocre and inneffective so far. The Senate, which is closely divided, is very dissapointing to me. They are all afraid they'll be labelled "traitor" and lose their next election.

The economy will be Bush's eventual undoing, of course much too late to prevent his war on Iraq. But when enough people lose their jobs and houses, maybe they will stop voting these Robber Barons into office.

Here in Colorado, the economy is forcing cuts in many useful services. So what does our State Legislature propose? The mandated posting of "In God We Trust" ina all public buildings and CLASSROOMS!

Unemployment is high, my lawn is dead because of the drought, and they're asking us to please flush less, except for Denver where the golf courses must be kept green.

Eventually, the majority of the American people will realize that they will never be rich, or even affluent, so voting for Bush and his handlers is of no direct benefit, unless you want the 10 Commandments posted everywhere.

My main hope is the slowly awakening American people. Too late to stop the Iraq war. It's already started. But my hope is that the American people will soon realize that they probably will never be rich, the pendulum has swung too far to the right, and it's time for a correction.

Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 06:27 AM

Hi Folkies...
I am putting together a one man show, a look at American freedoms and their loss through my historical ballads, from The Times That Try Our Souls, to Walking with King... so check out the thread, Love Song For America, up in the music threads, it is one thing we could do, as Arthur Kinoy, the last living lawyer for the Rosenbergs said to me, the civil rights movement died the day we stopped singing,
singing truth to power
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 10:05 AM

Well, ttr, you have posed an interesting question. Seems that every time someone steps up and becomes a voice for change and peace, someone kills 'em. Yeah, the word would definately be a better and safer place now if we still had Bobby Kennedy and Dr. King.

Under this oppressive media envornment, I don't think that anyone can capture the imaginations of so many folks like they were able to do. And there is so much that goes ijnto marketing and PR that the system has evolved to trivialize and minimalize potential leaders of change.

But, that said, though I'm still a Greenie, Howard Dean seems to have the positions on the issues, from war to the economy, to a woman's right to choose. He doesn't have the pizazz but maybe that just because he hasn't been marketed correctly. Al Sharpton, though terribly trivialized, is one heck of a spokesman for peace and justice and I would just hope that he gets more air time than he has gotten.

Those are my early thoughts on the subject. Maybe someone else come to mind later and if so, I'll be back.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM

Inspired by a recent thread, in response to ttr's query and with profound apologies to Dr. Seuss, here's

GIs on Scams

I do not like GIs on scams.
I do not like them, Uncle Sam!

I do not like them bombing babes,
I do not like them filling graves.
I do not like them trained with lies,
I do not like them vaporized


I do not like them used for oil,
I do not like their bloody spoils
I do not like their victim's screams,
I do not like your greed machine.

I do not like their brainwashed babble,
I do not like their lawless battle.
I did not like it yesterday
I like it even less today.

I do not like GIs on scams.
And we WILL beat you, Sam "I AM"!


When enough of the American people realize just how dangerously they are being duped, Bush and his cronies better head for the hills.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM

I'm with Robert. Howard Dean is my man.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM

In today's New York Times, Jimmy Carter examines whether this is a 'Just war' or 'just a war'. He concludes, point by point, that it is NOT just, ending with:

"American stature will surely decline further if we launch a war in clear defiance of the United Nations. But to use the presence and threat of our military power to force Iraq's compliance with all United Nations resolutions — with war as a final option — will enhance our status as a champion of peace and justice."

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 03:42 PM

Why not a second term for Jimmy Carter? As I've pointed out, he'd be younger than Gladstone was. Or Konrad Adenauer for that matter. Probably a good few other elderly statesmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 03:53 PM

One problem is that Carter is so good right where he is. If he should leave that mission, who would fill that post? When one starts totting up what the Carter Center has accomplished with Jimmy Carter at the helm, it's pretty impressive.

Reminds me of one year when the membership of the Alaska Folk Festival was (were?) voting on new officers of the board. One applicant asked for our vote then ended with 'If I don't get on the board, I'll continue working on the side for them'. Almost needless to say, she didn't get on the board. And sure enough, she continues to be an invaluable member of the folk festival.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Alice
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM

Howard Dean was on C-Span today. Not bad. Time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM

Yeah, Mcgrath, I'd vote fir Jimmy Carter. Might of fact, if my memory serves me correctly, he's the only guy that I ever voted for the actually won. Hmmmmm? Maybe I'll vote fir Bush next time...

Not!

Sorry to have missed Howard Dean, Alice. Guess I haven't been checkin' in on his website often enough.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 06:37 PM

I have a gut feeling that the Democratic party machine is going to back Joe Leiberman with Hillary Clinton as his running mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 07:49 PM

OK... But Joe is a hawk. That bugs me... Actually though, other than that, I'd go for the team if they prove to be significant and consequential... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 08:37 PM

I didn't say I would vote for them. I just think that's who the Democratic party is going to back.

I might just have to vote Green or Independent or something this time. I don't like Lieberman's stance on war in Iraq or on the role of the US in Israel/Palestine, and I don't like Hilary's stance on the role of the US in Israel/Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 08:41 PM

It'll all depend on the repercussions or lack thereof of Mr. Bush's War.

If the war goes smoothly with minimal casualties, minimal alienation of foreign governments, no major terrorist reprisals and if Dubya is able to keep the flag-waving at a fevered pitch.... The Democrats could nominate Jesus Christ himself and not stand a chance.

If the war goes smoothly and Dubya is not able to orchestrate a new binge of patriotism (remember that George I won the war but lost the election).... The Democrats stand a chance and I'll be a sentimental Floridian and toss Bob Graham's name into the hat.

If the war goes badly with lots of kids flying home in body bags, revenge terrorist attacks and a lot of people saying "We told you so!".... The Democrats could nominate my pet pig "Slim" and win.

Of course, there is the slimmest possibility that Dubya may listen to the voice of world opinion and back down from his war plans.... If he does, I may vote for the fucker myself.

But there is also the possibility that Dubya may invoke marshal law, suspend the Constitution and proclaim himself King.... In that case there won't be an election, will there?

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 09:30 PM

Jimmy Carter. Oh yeah. He's the guy who brokered that deal with North Korea isn't he.
The one who didn't have the strength of cahracter to turn down the Nobel Peace Prize when the Commitee chairman announced that it had been awarded to him, not for his work, but as a slap to President Bush.
The one who...Yeah, Jimmy Carter is who this country needs.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 10:00 PM

Troll:

There you go again. Bad mouthing Jimmy Carter? I just don't get it? Here's a guy who you probably don't know very much about that you are ready and willing to sit in judgement. For a lot of people Jimmy Carter represents what Christains are really about: loving their neighbors, believing in the sanctity of life, and public service.

You may see talking with your adversaries, as Jimmy Carter has, as a weekness. Lots of folks don't see it that way. Lots of folks would rather have Jimmy Carter in the White House than your guy whose foriegn policy is based around either killing ot threatening to kill people.

This thread is about "Who's onna beat Bush... and make peace". Your guy ain't gonna make any peace. He has shown his absolute thirst for getting back at the bully who embarassed him in the 5th grade. His entire forieng policy to date is cenetered around violence.

And so now Jimmy Carter is the bad guy?

Beam me up!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 11:17 PM

This man sounds like an interesting candidate. If he is a trustworthy person, he sounds like one that could take us to peace. Kucinich
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 11:47 PM

An interesting backlash from a Democrat and Nobel Prize winner can be found in this article in the International Herald Tribune. Worth reading, it analyzes the criteria for a just war and examines the merit of the American position relative to those criteria.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:59 AM

Can't get through on your link Amos.
Anyone read up on Kucinich yet? Like I said he sounds interesting. He is against the war, for cleaning up the environment, as a matter of fact he with Jerry Brown are proposing a $50 billion solar initiative in cooperation with Gorbachev's 'Global Green'.
He is pro choice, against the way the patriot act is taking away rights and much more. Read about him!
Spaw if you read this, maybe you know about him. He is a US Rep. from Ohio.
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Peg
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 01:38 AM

I like Kucinich except for the fact that his pro-choice attitude seems to be a relatively recent switch from his earlier actions...from what I have read, anyway. So that concerns me. But I like where he stands on a lot of issues.

I like Howard Dean based on what I know so far which isn't too much. Vermonters can usually be trusted to be reasonable, as long as they aren't TOO Vermont in their ways (i.e. racist, homophobic, xenophobic, isolationist and interested in eugenics).

I am very much against Lieberman and always have been.

I wouldn't say no to Hillary and think she might have a good chance getting picked as a running mate...

I think John Kerry has his eye on the race, too. He's a bit too much business as usual. I think after this four year regime is finished a lot of people will want something different. But no candidate in their right mind is going to be going into this not understanding there will be one hell of a mess to clean up, financially and politically. Our country's morale and credibility will end up at an all-time low, if things keep on as they are going. Our domestic problems will be second, however, to the massive foreign relations derailments that will have to be righted again...

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 12:47 PM

Link worked for me just now. It is:

http://www.iht.com/articles/89151.html

Try cut 'n' paste.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 03:40 PM

Yes, Peg, and the 'candidate in question' is going to be visciously attacked, uncerimoniously slandered, microscopicly mistreated, and otherwise subjected to 'dirty tricks' and media madness... before it's all over... No Bush anymore, in Two Thousand and Four!

ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:32 PM

Since the CIA's assassination of JFK, an incremental move toward military dictatorship has taken place. It has been so successful that you folks can now accept 4 jetliners being hijacked and flying around for 75 minutes over the most crowded area of the US without being intercepted by NORAD's automatic-response system. Things are so bad that the military coup can now murder live on TV and then get you to sit still while they draw up legislation to steal your kids from you.

It does not MATTER who you vote for in the Presidential Election. Both the Bushes and Bill Clinton orchestrated Sept 11. It is a 100% certainty the two major-party candidates will be employees of the organized criminals running the CIA. If they're not, they'll have their heads blown off.

Insist on an open investigation of Sept 11. Put the effort of thought and writing you would devote to the phony election into spreading word about Sept 11. You KNOW that's the right thing to do. If you do not expose the criminals of Sept 11, you and your descendants will live shortened lives as the ditch-diggers, whores and organ donors of the coming tyrannical world govt.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM

Yeah, DD, does make you wonder why when the space shuttle, Columbia, crashes that there is an investigation started within 24 hours. Now rewind to 9-11 and we're still awaiting an investigation. Hmmmmm, Part 764873?

And how about the investigation of Dick Cheneys meetings in developing an energy policy. Or how about one that links the current adminsitration to badly doctored documents to use as evidence that Iraq was trying to purchase nuclear material? (I maigh add that if true, this is an impeachable offense.) Yeah, Bush is getting real sloppy here.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM

All his crimes are sloppy. Just like Clinton's were. Clinton was openly selling nuclear secrets to the ChiComs, but then the country was diverted by an affair with an intern. The REAL intent behind that affair was to dissolve the office of the Independent Prosecutor, by the way. There's no way Bush could have pulled off the BIG crime of Sept 11 if Clinton and Ken Starr hadn't first made sure no one could ask independent questions, so they made Americans want to get rid of the office. It's all interlocked. Dole, Clinton, Gore, Bush, Liebermann...they're all the same. Some get more done than others when it comes to destroying the US and enhancing the UN, but they're all the same.

Sept 11 was too big a step, though. It needs to be focused on. Too many witnesses still alive, too recent, too much forensic evidence. They can't get away with it, if people will just focus.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM

Gosh DD... I'll be content with voting Bush out of office... I'm not ready to Hail the mighty conspiracy theory, 'cause it's just too much for my little mind to grasp right now. Would you mind not posting your well oiled schpeal in this thread? You've already voiced these 'concerns' of yours, and we're well aware of your point of view. Same old same old. Thanks... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 08:43 PM

"The REAL intent behind that affair was to dissolve the office of the Independent Prosecutor, by the way." hhhahahah DD, you are too, too funny. Yes, I can just believe that President Clinton was telling himself in those heated moments that 'Here's one to dissolve the office of the Independent Prosecutor'. (By the way, was Monica in on the conspiracy?)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 08:46 PM

Thank you for your encouragement, Thomas.

Let's see...no one is going to make peace because that is not on the agenda. And there IS no Democratic candidate...never will be. Just a continuation of the 'Homeland Security' dictatorship. You DO have a dictatorship on your hands, you know And a choice of dictators is no choice.

What is wrong with you? This isn't a conspiracy. No proof was ever offered that the Taliban, Afghanistan or al Qeada bombed the WTC, but THOUSANDS of pieces of evidence prove conclusively the US govt did. The US govt is no longer deserving of your support through participation in non-elections. GWBush murdered thousands on Sept 11, and Clinton murdered dozens at Oklahoma City and armed North Korea. The only choice is to expose our illegitimate CIA govt. Until that is done, no election will make any difference. No candidate will cure the disease.

Do not put any effort into the upcoming 'election' unless you are doing what I am doing at this very moment...demanding an accounting as to why we have no Sept 11 investigation. Millions are about to be slaughtered because you'd rather talk about a personality contest than a mass-murder by our govt.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 08:50 PM

Ebbie...the people involved in the destruction of America think generationally. One Bush started a war 12 years ago and now another one is going to milk it some more. The office of the Independent Prosecutor HAD to be dissolved because it was an impediment to dictatorship, so it was reduced to soap opera. Clinton is going to be Sec General of the U.N. (King of the World) and couldn't care less that he had to look stupid for a couple years in order to get the office.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:18 PM

Well, DD, I will be first to admit that Oklahoma City left that fishy smell. Like someone not telling all. I mean, lets think about it here fir a minute. You park a Ryder truck filled with manure and kerosene some 60 feet from the front of the Federal Building and let her rip! Right?

Well, if anyone knows anyone who is into demolitions that use explosive charges in bringing down structure, ask 'em about how a truck filled with poop and kerosene could take out a concrete building some 50 feet into it's interior! Does make ya' think!

Then how about all those folks who, at the time, instinctly remembering the sound of two explosions? Not one, that a truck bomb would make. Hmmmmm!

Now I will be the first to say that Dreaded Guest is a nut but you know what? Some of this stuff is starting to make more and more sense.

Consider this. Bill Clinton gets impeached fir oral sex and now the American people have lost their taste for "impeachment" at a time when a madamn is at the controls and is using "cooked" documments as evidence on wht we have to attack Iraq!?!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!.....

Hmmmmmmm, Part 0989859307497408?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:32 PM

I, for one, would love to see extensive investigations into the 9/11 events as well as the anthrax letters. And I would love to see a legitimate and agenda-free explanation of why we haven't seen these things investigated extensively already.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 09:54 PM

Carol, I'm going to give you a very small, probably totally inconsequential and therefore ultra Canadian "Hear Hear!"

"Hear Hear!"

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:24 PM

So Bobert. The report that Hans Blix turned in to the UN wherein is described a drone airplane with a 25 foot wingspan and apparently quite a long range is a "cooked" document,eh? The plane was developed under an undisclosed program and, because of its size alone is a clear material breech. Blix didn't mention it in has speech, however. It was buried in the report which ran, I believe, several hundred pages.
I guess he thought maybe no one would read it.
As far as Jimmy Carter is concerned, if you consider him a great, or even good president, you and I have absolutely no common ground on which to discuss politics.
I will leave you with the following story. Perhaps you can explain to me how in the name of the laws of G-d OR man you can justify the existance on earth for one more day, of anyone who would allow or condone such an action.
And just in case you can't figure out WHO i'm talking about, I mean Saddam Hussein, also known as the Butcher of Bagdad, the man who has murdered hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen and stolem the food from the mouths of millions more.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:30 PM

Apparently the copy didn't thke or something. Anyhoo, here's the story,
Thirty-seven-year-old Nazif Mamik Tofik, an Iraqi Kurdish woman, approached a border
                      crossing between semiautonomous northern Iraq and Iraq proper, the Daily Telegraph
                      reports. She was carrying two five-gallon canisters of fuel, which she hoped to sell on
                      the Iraqi side to get some money to feed her children. Here's what happened next:

                           As she stepped up to the Iraqi checkpoint, a military policeman suddenly
                           pulled a knife, slashed open the flimsy plastic containers and splashed petrol
                           all over her.

                           Then the head of the Iraqi border guard casually walked up to her, pulled a
                           lighter from his pocket and set her ablaze. Soaked in fuel, she began to burn
                           like a torch. That was on Monday afternoon. Yesterday Nazif lay in Sulaimania
                           emergency hospital, on the Iraqi side, whimpering with pain. She had third
                           degree burns and doctors said she was lucky to be alive. . . .

                           In a faltering voice, she said: "They said absolutely nothing, just looked at me
                           with hatred. Then they set me alight. My whole body was in flames. I can't
                           describe the pain. . . ."

Nuff Sed.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 10:56 PM

If we're going have to go after Saddam Hussien for reasons like that one, troll I guess we're going to have to go after Ariel Sharon for the same kinds of reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

Fine by me. We can get Arafat while we are at it. And Mugabe.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:22 AM

I know, Bobert. The film is pretty conclusive on the OKC thing. And then there are the MOUNTAINS of evidence about the WTC.

Just the firefighting evidence...second tower struck, fire fighters reached the site and reported small fires rapidly going out. Most of the fuel had been splashed out the side. Then there are explosions underground (reported by firefighters), and the buildings come down. And all firefighters are put under a gag order for 'national security'.

If 9-11 is not ripped open right now, folks, you will go to concentration camps. Guranteed. Television is now saying people who criticize the govt should be locked up, and television is where 90% of people get their news. Talk show hosts and Pat Buchanan to Alan Derschowitz are discussing torture like it's a given.

Elections...2000, Florida, Gore on top, VNS system goes down, comes back up and Bush is ahead. 2002, VNS goes down nationwide and when it comes back up the Republicans have made 'unexpected' gains. Now VNS has been disbanded because it's no longer needed. Electronic voting is installed in enough areas where national election outcomes can now be pre-programmed. Votes won't even be counted. Just electrons no one can track. It's over. Elections at the national level now have no meaning. Your Pres and VP will be appointed from here on out. UNLESS the Sept 11 attacks are shown for what they were.

An unelected CIA son has brought the world to the brink of WW3 and the institution of tyrannical world govt. Only you can change that. Bring down the CIA (and all the killers and assassins they've inflicted on the world the past 55 years), and the concentration camps can be avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:32 AM

Troll: why do you expect to see compassion from most of these folks for the Iraqi people? Whassamatta you crazy? They feel, obivously, that the Iraqi people DESERVE Saddam!

Jimmy Carter: one of the worst presidents in U. S. history, who has nothing of note to point to as an accomplishment as a president. Now he has survived his one term and the only good thing I can think of that he has done has been as a carpenter with Habitat for Humanity. As a ex-president he should keep his opinions to himself and his mouth shut as every other president other than Bill Clinton has done after leaving office. Just my opinion of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:21 AM

Ok, troll. If Sharon doesn't comply, shall we go ahead and bomb Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:00 AM

And Gaza. And the West Bank. And on to Zimbabwe.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:31 AM

Carter was one of the most intelligent, compassionate and visionary leaders ever to serve as President. Because of an uncooperative cabinet and the unfortunate Iranian hostage situation (which he wisely did not budge on, yet many criticized him for), he was not able to manifest all the plans he had in place. But Reagan's economic boom (which he then pissed away by racking up trillions in national debt, more during his administration than all other presidents combined before him) was solely due to cost-saving measures and regulations implemented by Carter (many of them having to do with energy-saving practices he wrote into law). Read any textbook which outlines the Carter presidency; most people have no idea what a great legacy this man left behind. And what about his post-White House years? You don't earn the Nobel Peace Prize for playing golf or fly-fishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:03 AM

Bobert-Poop and kerosene can inflict an amazing amount of damage. Remember that this truck could probably carry at least half a ton, if not a ton, of explosive. Think about the damage that a 1000 lb. military bomb inflicts. While ammonium nitrate is not quite as powerful as TNT, positioning the explosive in the basement makes up for that. For two explosions, think about echos. In an urban center, surrounded by tall buildings, any loud, sharp noise is echoed.

Troll-Not that I'm claiming that Saddam isn't a vile person, but simply because some of his policemen do bad things doesn't actually prove any connection. American policemen have beaten, raped, and murdered suspects in isolated incidents. You can't convict Saddam on this alone. I don't disagree with your conclusion, just that this evidence warrants it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:17 AM

Forum Lurker, you mention positioning the truck in the basement. Are you referring to the Oklahoma City bombing? My understanding is that the truck was parked in the street in front of the building.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:16 PM

OK City....

Ten foot crater left by the truck....couldn't have done the damage to the building. Seismagraphic records show more than one explosion. TOW missile removed from the FBI office above the daycare center (pointed downwards but failed to go off). Govt agents were seen by an employee in the building putting 'grey sticks of margarine' around support columns in the basement beneath the building (C4 shape charges). etc, etc, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:32 PM

Lurker, the example I gave is simply a report of the latest atrocity perpetrated by Saddams goons. Remember, he used poison gas on the Kurds. That was the act of a government, not just a few rogue cops.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:02 PM

Saddam was sold poison gas by the Bushes and James Baker, then the CIA showed him how to spray it. The film we've seen of the dead Kurds was taken by the CIA...for future use when Saddam had to be demonized. Our CIA, in point of fact, carried out the gas attacks against the Kurds.

And Bush # 1 told Saddam he could invade Kuwait. He said it would be considered 'a regional affair'. And since Bush and Saddam had done business together all through the CIA-funded Iran/Iraq war, Saddam interpretted Bush's Kuwaiti statement as an order. He was ORDERED by Bush to invade Kuwait.

How come you folks don't know this stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM

Troll. Lurker's point is still well taken. American law enforcement officers have also perpetrated some brutal and heinous crimes again civilians, rape and murder among them. By your reasoning, the rest of the world should be declaring war on US, if the isolated actions of our police (who are employed by municipal, state and federal mandate) are worthy of the same scrutiny you assign to Saddam's goon squad.

Come to think of it, why do WE get to tell other countries to disarm when WE have the biggest arsenal of nuclear and biological weapons and military firepower in the world?

Some things just don't make sense. I start the day with a smile and a simple breakfast of cereal with sliced bananas...and then it's all downhill from there. When will anyone actually learn anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM

DougR, you say: "Now he has survived his one term and the only good thing I can think of that he has done has been as a carpenter with Habitat for Humanity."

What a snide crock. You, sir, are ill informed and closed minded; I doubt you have allowed yourself to take in any new information in 30 years.

For starters, there is the Carter Center. I read somewhere that in some regions, the incidence of worm disease through the work of the Carter Center has been lowered by 90%.

""One of Atlanta's premier international institutions, the Center is a nongovernmental, nonprofit organization founded in 1982 by former US President Jimmy Carter and his wife, Rosalynn. A part of Emory
University, the Center's activities are led by resident experts and fellows and implemented in cooperation with world leaders, other
nongovernmental organizations, international agencies and other
partners.

To date, the Center has helped improve the lives of people in more
than 65 countries. In addition to high-profile conflict mediations in
Bosnia, Haiti and North Korea, the Center has monitored some 20
elections in countries making transition to democracy, helped to
dramatically increase grain production in more than a dozen African
countries, provided leadership for an international coalition trying to eradicate Guinea worm disease in Africa, worked with countries to
protect and promote human rights, and marshaled Atlanta neighborhoods
and corporations to address the social issues associated with poverty."

I have little doubt, DougR, that you prefer our ex presidents to put themselves out to pasture, and in recent years most of them have certainly met your desires. Most of our expresidents have let themselves become silly, sports-besotted men.

Rant off.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM

Troll-Like I said, I didn't disagree with your conclusion, I simply don't think it was warranted by that particular incident, or even a number of such incidents. Using chemical weapons on civilians IS enough, but the U.S. does not have a significant moral high ground when it comes to WMDs.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 01:56 PM

I find the days I forego reading newspapers and turning on the TV (or the computer) are much happier, a lot less "downhill".

But eventually I feel guilty about hiding my head in the sand so to speak, and climb back on board ...

I'd just like to be sure my 'involvement' does anyone any good. Some days I really wonder.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 06:16 PM

So, who's gonna beat Bush? ...and don't beat up DougR (though it's tempting), he keeps us in touch with the incredibly well informed American public... Listen up and take notes! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:49 AM

Peg: my rememberance of the Carter years was long lines at the gasoline pumps, double digit inflation, hostages in Iran and failed attempts to rescue them. You, of course, are entitled to whatever memories you choose.

Ebbie: your attack, I believe is unwarranted. I don't believe I directed my remarks to the Carter Center or any works that it may or may not have done good or bad. My remarks were aimed at a failed president who is trying desperately to preserve a positive image in history. His winning of the Nobel Peace Prize was a laugh. Many believe the only reason he got it was the committee wanted to deliver an insult to the current president. I am one of those people.

Admire him as a peacekeeper if you wish, but tell me what he has actually accomplished. The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the same as when he left office (but I admit that he did try hard to resolve it). The fiasco in North Korea is largely a result of his bungled negotiation. What victories can he claim?

DougR

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:16 PM

DougR, the conflict between Israel and Egypt was successfully resolved with President Carter's assistance, during his term of office. That's a very significant accomplishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:04 PM

Yeh, boy DougR... Bush 'the first' and Carter were like night and day Huh? He HE He ...ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Mudjack
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM

More direct answer to the question posed by Thomas "H" the Rhymer.
I am voting for Jeb Bartlett, off course we have to have all those NBC writers to write the scripts that will guaratee peace. For the real world I can only say it won't be Al Gore.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM

Gee, Carol, I wasn't aware the conflict between Israel and Palestine had been settled. Do they know that?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM

DougR, perhaps you aren't aware that Egypt and Palestine are entirely separate countries. Or maybe you didn't read my last post very carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:29 PM

Hi Ho Mudjack! Long time no see! How's that fine voice of yours? So, who is this Jeb Bartlet, and how electable is he? I'm concerned by the lack of charismatic politicians these days... or is that an oxymoron? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:54 PM

Doug:

Get a current World Atlas. The one you used in college is a tad dated!

Either way. You won't find Egypt and Palestine occupying the same territory.

Hey, I've just fuggured out who is gonna beat George Bush!

(Drumroll...)

Goerge Bush!

Yep, you knowtice that every time he gets up and tries to convince the world that he is justified in attacking Iraq, fewere and fewer people actually, ahhh, *believe* him as the demonstrations get larger and larger.

Yep, he's about 5 speeches away from being put in a rocket ship and sent to live out his days on Mars!

Keep running your mouth, King George! Speech! Speech! Speech!

Bobertr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:28 PM

Mudjack-If Martin Sheen ran against Bush on the Democratic ticket, I'd vote for him. He'd at least be able to convince other nations that he knew what the hell he was doing, and he's probably both smarter and saner than our real president. I trust his staff more, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:58 AM

DougR the current "crisis" in North Korea is because GW called their current leader a pigmy then putting North Korea in the "Axis of Evil" when he declared war on terrorism. Even after all that, all North Korea is asking for is a promise that the US won't preemptively attack them and the 2 billion dollars the Clinton administration promised them in exchange of SHUTTING DOWN THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND ALLOWING INSPECTORS. Do you remember that the Bush administration started to call it a crisis when Kim Jong Il kicked out the inspectors and threatened to restart their breeder reactor?

Carter should be given a peace prize for even attempting to clean up Bush's mess rather than laughing in his face.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:10 AM

Well, Jack, never let it be said I didn't say you certainly have a right to your opinion. You think Carter is a super negotiator, okey dokie by me. I just don't happen to agree with you.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,terilu
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:36 AM

Troll and others - from http://www.truthaboutwar.org/1brutal.shtml-

These stories make for great propaganda, but none of them are true, and the Bush administration knows it.

Saddam Hussein did not gas his own people.

Supposedly Hussein gassed Iraqi Kurds at Halabja in March 1988 during the closing days of the Iran-Iraq war. But it isn't true. In 1990, the U.S. government found that the Kurds died by cyanide gas. It was the Iranians who used cyanide, while the Iraqis used mustard gas. This means it was the Iranians who accidentally killed the Kurds during battle. Hussein had nothing to do with it. (Source: Army War College, Stephen Pelletier & colleague)

In a related lie, Hussein is also said to have committed genocide in August 1988, killing 100,000 Iraqi Kurds with machine guns, then burying them in mass graves. U.S. intelligence services have uniformly dismissed this story. According to Stephen Pelletier of the U.S. Army War College, no such mass graves have ever been found because none exist. The incident never happened. Human Rights Watch, which originally reported the story, has since retracted it, but the lie lives on.


Saddam Hussein did not try to assassinate George Bush, Sr.

Bush, Jr. loves to tell the story of how Hussein "tried to kill my dad." But it's not true. Investigative reporter Seymour Hersh debunked the story in a December 5, 1993 article in The New Yorker titled "A Case Not Closed." The bomb was actually miles away from Bush, Sr. and was likely a set-up by Kuwait to keep Clinton from easing sanctions on Iraq.


Saddam Hussein's soldiers did not remove babies from incubators in Kuwait.

A New York public relations firm hired by the Kuwaiti government created this story to win American public support for U.S. military action against Iraq. The fiction was based on the tearful testimony of a Kuwaiti woman before the U.S. Senate as it debated war in 1990. The woman claimed to have witnessed the incubator incident with her own eyes, but she was really the daughter of the Kuwaiti Information Minister, and hadn't even been in Kuwait on the day the alleged atrocity took place. (See csmonitor.com/2002/ 0906/p01s02-wosc.html.)
In conclusion, Bush's claim that we should go to war because Hussein (our former client) is a brutal dictator is blatant hypocrisy. Our politicians have been the great creators and patrons of dictatorships around the world. They have…

Toppled the legitimate government of Iran for the benefit of U.S. oil companies, eventually leading to the Islamic revolution and its related problems,
Installed dictatorships in Central America for the benefit of the United Fruit Company,
Installed the current government of Iraq,
Destabilized a working democracy in Lebanon, leading to decades of civil war,
Assassinated the elected President of Chile,
And on and on and on…
(See Endless Enemies by Jonathan Kwitny, The Fifties by David Halberstam, and The Price of Power by Seymour Hersh for details about the above list of CIA interventions.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:57 AM

For a real firebrand discussion of the case against the Resident, check out Wayne Madsen in Counterpunch.org -- it appears even Bush I is getting pissed off at Junyuh.

An excerpt:

Junior, let's face it, you have done       more damage to the world and your country in two years than most       tyrants have accomplished in decades. Your Dad now even believes       you are way off base. Your predecessors Jimmy Carter and Bill       Clinton think you are an embarrassment. Your Dad's best friends       and colleagues think your Iraq adventure is ill-timed and ill-conceived.

You need to either dump that aforementioned       band of lunatics you stuck into your administration and who are       steering you into political oblivion or you should let Laura       and Daddy sign the papers and let the 25th Amendment take its       course.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:32 AM

Terilu - I had never heard that the Halabja attack might have been committed by anyone other than the Iraqi's so I did a little bit of googling. Whilst i did find many articles repeating your claims, I also checked the Human Rights Watch website. Their view is that the claim you repeat was put about by the US as a cover up since the US was pretty much in cahoots with Saddam at the time. They believe that the gassing was done by Iraq as part of a much larger and more extensive systematic campaign against the Kurds known as the Anfal campaign and concludes that this campaign constituted genocide against the Kurds.

However, I believe that the no fly zones over Kurdish territory have been faily successful in preventing the continuation of this campaign, so it is hardly a premise on which to go to war. I have also read that the Iraqi Kurds are now more fearful of Turkey (who have *not* been prohibited from the no fly zone) - who are also known for human rights abuses against Kurds, and may have more access to the Iraqi Kurds if this war goes ahead.

(sorry if this is thread drift...)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:08 AM

You'd have to look very long to find any recent book on negotiations that is not mentioning as a positive prime example Carter's mediation in the Egypt-Israel negotiations of 1978. The only nasty remarks I have read about his recent Nobel prize were that this award was a belated silent admission that he should have got the award much earlier for his contribution to the Camp David agreement.

BTW, speaking about the Camp David agreement, one part of that agreement was that a little strip of land, called Gaza strip, changed from being a (entirely Israel occupied) part of Egypt to being a (intermittently Israel occupied) part of Palestine. That only dates back to 1948 I think. Though never at the same time in history, but at different times in history both the names 'Palestine' and 'Egypt' have been written to the same strip of land.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:04 PM

Amos, if only bush would listen! I suspect he is surrounded by so many yes men he is being told only what he wants to hear.


I found this excerpt most telling:

"After Kiesling's resignation from the State Department came a blast from within the ranks of the GOP. Jack Walters, the GOP Chairman in Boone County, Missouri, resigned over Bush's war plans. Walters' letter made some cogent points and posed some agonizing questions: "The consequences of our planned attack on Iraq (and also probably Iran, given the size of our forces and their location in proximity to Iran), should cause us all to pause. The Pentagon has announced that we will hit Baghdad with a force almost equal to the bombing of Hiroshima. Obviously many thousands of civilians will perish, with untold thousands maimed. And for what? To liberate them? To bring them freedom? Or democracy? Or is it to really secure the world's second largest oil reserve and establish a base from which to subjugate other Middle Eastern nations? Is it also the plan for Israel to use the cover of war to forcibly relocate the Palestinian population (as has been publicly stated by some members of Israel's current government)?"

I still think that this nation should be governed by a tripartite presidency.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:45 PM

NK started on its secret nuclear program in 1995, a year after the Carter-brokered deal. Bush included NK in his "Axis of Evil" speech and, as it happens, he was right. They were and are trying to develop nuclear weapons. They have admitted that they cheated on the agreement which THEY signed. And they have reopened a closed nuclear plant to begin making weapons grade plutonium.
They have claimed that it's to generate power but a member of the INC said that he knew that plant and that it could barely generate enough power to keep itself running. This was several weeks ago and I don't have a link. I'll try to find one.
Jack do you honestly believe that that's ALL Kim Il-Jong wants? Because if you do, I fear that you are in for a dreadful surprise.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:48 AM

Troll-Just because they want nuclear weapons makes them evil? You do realize that that makes the U.S. truly fit the name of Great Satan, then, don't you? We invented the damn things and are the only ones ever to use them in war.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:10 AM

Forum Lurker,

I am sorry but that is a half-assed comparison. The concern is not that WMD exist but that they exist in the hands of an unstable government. Right now, though, Bush looks pretty unstable, I grant you! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:10 AM

And if ya' think that NK is evil fir wanting nuclear weapons, let just examine the facts here. Look who Bush doesn't want to mess with? Hmmmm? Then look at who he wants to mess with. Hmmmmm?

Tell ya' what, if someone threatens me I'm going to look for a big stick! If I were the leader of any country right now, I'd be doing just that. When ya' got a nut with a big stick threatenin' folks you gonna need a stick.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM

Amos-I wasn't saying that we were evil. I was pointing out the fallacy of claiming that any nation seeking to develop nuclear weapons must be evil. I don't think that you can pick and choose who can do what based on your opinion of the current leadership. Besides, North Korea actually has a very stable government-how long has it been since it changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

FL:

Good point. Aside from their dubiouus ideology about which I know very little. Nukes do not equal evil. But those predisposed toward evil as a result of fanatical upbringing are the last ones who should have 'em! The only concern about NK is that they have done this before and they have been a constant threat to SK ever since. It would simplify life a lot if we could get into a real dialog witrh them. Some whimsical piece of last minute editing put them into the Axis of Evil speech, and they have been on a different tack ever since.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:59 AM

Amos, I'm sure you are aware that the NKs were developing their nuclear weapons long before the Axis of Evil speech. Perhaps that was why they were included (their aggressive history and possession of nuclear weapons).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM

The 'axis of evil' is planted firmly in GWB's 'James Bond' world view. A simpleton's boyhood romp was all he wanted... why is everyone so uptight? ;^)

OK... so the Prez needs to be 'more choosy' about his sexual partners, More diplomatic overseas, have a grasp of the underlying reasons for a ballanced budget, and a zesty new approach to peacemaking... Oh, and how's about a sense of humor too! Show Bush the door in Two Thousand and Four! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:50 PM

DougR-Yes, they were developing nuclear weapons. SO WHAT?! Nuclear weapons cannot be the sole basis for determining if a country is a rogue state, or we head the list by far. Their "aggressive history" includes fewer wars than ours in the same span of time. While I'll warrant that Kim Jong-Il isn't the picture of a kind, sensible, benign ruler, I don't think that there is anywhere near sufficient evidence that he poses a threat to anyone. I'd be far more worried about leaders who state their willingness to use their admitted, tremendously large nuclear arsenals than those who simply announce that they intend to keep working towards making one or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:51 PM

Paul Krugman of The New York Times this morning has an Op-ed piece that concludes that Bush et al is simply the wrong man for the job, saying: If that sounds harsh, consider the debacle of recent diplomacy — a debacle brought on by awesome arrogance and a vastly inflated sense of self-importance.

He goes on to say, "Wasn't someone at the State Department allowed to point out that in matters nonmilitary, the U.S. isn't all that dominant — that Russia and Turkey need the European market more than they need ours, that Europe gives more than twice as much foreign aid as we do and that in much of the world public opinion matters? Apparently not.

And to what end has Mr. Bush alienated all our most valuable allies? (And I mean all: Tony Blair may be with us, but British public opinion is now virulently anti-Bush.) The original reasons given for making Iraq an immediate priority have collapsed. No evidence has ever surfaced of the supposed link with Al Qaeda, or of an active nuclear program. And the administration's eagerness to believe that an Iraqi nuclear program does exist has led to a series of embarrassing debacles, capped by the case of the forged Niger papers, which supposedly supported that claim. At this point it is clear that deposing Saddam has become an obsession, detached from any real rationale."

I am withholding the italics; I believe it is clear that some amongst us don't read italicized excerpts. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's gonna beat Bush... and make peace?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:49 PM

His attitude -- which is certainly his most precious, if not his only, asset -- has managed to undermine three decades of evolving relationships.

I was glad to see him coming up with some sort of Middle Eastern peace plan. I don't think for a moment that it was his idea. And, as the song says, "We'd all love to see the plan...."

A