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BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?

Bobert 11 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Mar 03 - 07:33 PM
Bobert 11 Mar 03 - 07:49 PM
Ebbie 11 Mar 03 - 08:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Mar 03 - 08:18 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Mar 03 - 08:56 PM
InOBU 11 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM
Bobert 11 Mar 03 - 09:46 PM
katlaughing 11 Mar 03 - 11:11 PM
DonMeixner 11 Mar 03 - 11:36 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 11 Mar 03 - 11:59 PM
Stilly River Sage 12 Mar 03 - 12:35 AM
DougR 12 Mar 03 - 12:49 AM
alanabit 12 Mar 03 - 06:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM
Bobert 12 Mar 03 - 07:03 AM
InOBU 12 Mar 03 - 07:39 AM
Bagpuss 12 Mar 03 - 08:19 AM
catspaw49 12 Mar 03 - 08:33 AM
InOBU 12 Mar 03 - 08:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Mar 03 - 08:56 AM
Bagpuss 12 Mar 03 - 09:14 AM
Kim C 12 Mar 03 - 10:00 AM
Bagpuss 12 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM
Kim C 12 Mar 03 - 10:42 AM
InOBU 12 Mar 03 - 10:43 AM
Wolfgang 12 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 12 Mar 03 - 11:52 AM
Kim C 12 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM
DougR 12 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 12 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM
smallpiper 12 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM
Ebbie 12 Mar 03 - 01:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM
Kim C 12 Mar 03 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 12 Mar 03 - 03:04 PM
catspaw49 12 Mar 03 - 03:12 PM
DougR 12 Mar 03 - 03:33 PM
katlaughing 12 Mar 03 - 03:34 PM
Ebbie 12 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM
katlaughing 12 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM
Beccy 12 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM
Bobert 12 Mar 03 - 04:59 PM
DougR 12 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM
Bobert 12 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,vectis sans cookie 12 Mar 03 - 06:47 PM
katlaughing 12 Mar 03 - 07:27 PM
*daylia* 12 Mar 03 - 07:27 PM
*daylia* 12 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM
Bobert 12 Mar 03 - 07:32 PM
Bobert 12 Mar 03 - 07:37 PM
Barry Finn 12 Mar 03 - 07:47 PM
Ebbie 12 Mar 03 - 07:50 PM
Bobert 12 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM
Ebbie 12 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM
catspaw49 12 Mar 03 - 09:37 PM
Bobert 12 Mar 03 - 09:50 PM
Stilly River Sage 12 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM
GUEST 12 Mar 03 - 11:02 PM
Bagpuss 13 Mar 03 - 06:00 AM

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Subject: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

Delma Banks, Jr., will die by letal injection inTexas, Wednesday, March 12th. Mr. Banks is a "poster boy" for the movement to stop capital punishment because innocent people are beoing executed in America.

Convicted in 1980 of a murder that he probably did not commit, he will be the 300th person executed in Texas since the death penaly was restored. Mr Banks, who had no police record at the time of his arrest, was convicted with no other evidence than the testimony of an ex-felon, Charles Cook, who was trying to deal his way mout og yet another felony.

The case has brought the attention of former FBI chief William Sessions and two retired federal appeals court judges who think that Banks is going to executed as an innocent man.

So where are the pro-lifers on this one?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:33 PM

I'd assume that the people on the vigil will include some who are genuinely pro-life, both in regard to abortion and the death penalty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:49 PM

Not many. McGrath. MOst pro-lifers are also pro death penalty. Now I know by saying this I'm gonna get the usual righteous pro-lifers to say they are against capital punishment but that isn't the way it breaks here in America. Maybe at Mudcat but not in the Bible Belt which is strongly pro-war, pro capital punishment and anti abortion!

I am sorry that I made the comment about the pro-lifers at all because it turns the attention away from the brutal fact that there is a very strong poosibility that an innocent man will be executed tomorrow.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:06 PM

Oh, no, Bobert- our own president said that he is confident that Texas has never executed an innocent man. If you can't believe him, who can you believe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:18 PM

Say "most people who call themselves pro-lifers in the USA", and no doubt you'd be right.

When there was a successful referendum in Ireland a couple of years ago to change the constitution, so that it barred the possibility of capital punishment ever being reintroduced, those voted for it included great numbers who had voted to make sure the constitution continued to exclude abortion, and the issue was seen by many as a reflection of a consistently pro-life commitment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:56 PM

We tried to tell ye; there are folks in Texas who despise Dubya, who hated his politics and dirty tricks here, but was anybody listening? Well, yes, I guess they were, the popular vote went to Gore. . .

Never mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:03 PM

In Fact... Texas went to the Sup Ct a few years back to argue that the state did not offend the constitution if it exicuted the innocent... the Sup Ct narrowly agreed that judicial ecconomy trumped innocence when it came to exicuting an innocent man who had used all his appeals, god help America
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM

Larry,

Am I alone in thinking (and wishing) that if there were one single act that a person could perform, even if it cost one's life, that would get the attention and change the mind of the administration in how they are conducting "business as usual," that people would be lining up for the opportunity to perform this suicidal act?

There are, I believe, people who would line up to perform such an act, after listening to the sobbing mother of the son on death row, EVEN after listening to the parents of the deceased child attest to their need for revenge.

Take the thought of this act and transpose it over the rest of the world. See the hate that this nation has generated by behaving as if we are entitled to live with such privilege while much of the world is as debased as it is. Wonder no more why young men are willing to die to try to make a point. Yet some of them come from cultures that (from here) seem even more corrupt than this one. So there is a major conundrum. You didn't see starving villagers from the Asian subcontinent crash those planes into the Twin Towers. No African refugees.

ANYWAY. There IS no one act that can influence our supposedly democratic government, no act of one person that can stay the hand of Dubya as he proceeds toward a war that will enrich the rich to such an obscene degree that we've never seen it before. We don't have the will to figure out who should be in prison and who shouldn't, we can't figure out how to support our poor because we're too busy giving tons of money back to the obscenely rich. (And in this case it isn't just Dubya, but it has been rich politicians down through the years making this same attempt. They're just getting away with it more than they have since Reagan was in office).

Pretty damned depressing, isn't it?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:46 PM

SRS:

Yes, it is! And this poor shmo's life ain't gonna cahnge one danged thing in Texas, or America because if Boss Hog wants yer butt dead, your butt is gonna be dead. Ain't got nothin' to do with God or religion. Just power, greed and a bunch of stupid white men!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:11 PM

Hmmmm...I know I posted to this a few hours ago. Don't know what happened to it...second one this week.

Anyway, it wasn't saying much except isn't there any way to stop this murder? And, of course that is mostly rhetorical. Damn...

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:36 PM

They are all innocent of capitol crimes as far as I'm concerned unless some one actually saw the crime committed and is an unempeachable source.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:59 PM

There IS a single act which can bring about change in the world.

Demand an accounting for the US government's actions on Sept 11, 2001. Single-issue. Focus on that intently. Demand an accounting. There are lawsuits against GWBush right now for MURDER! STALLED BY THE WHITE HOUSE! DEMAND an accounting every time the subject comes around to politics or airplanes or Arabs or children or gardening or hula-hoops. INSIST on an accounting, and the whole criminal organization will come tumbling down. Tell ten people a day the US govt did the Sept 11 job, and the terrorism nightmare will be over in a year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:35 AM

DredGest--you've been passionate about your thoughts on these issues from the very beginning, so your interest in this isn't unexpected--or unappreciated. The difficulty between my rant and your statement is that the act I postulated (without identifying) needs such a convincing level of credibility that no one would question the veracity and would immediately accept that point of view. I can't see either of us acheiving that. Any suggestions?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:49 AM

So, Bobert, what evidence do you have that he is innocent?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:37 AM

Steady on Doug. They are not giving the man a school detention. They are going to kill him. Don't you rather need convincing evidence of guilt first? Isn't that where the burden of proof lies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:51 AM

You have to prove you are innocent in the USA do you? That's a bit hard to do. In fact much of the time it's logically impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:03 AM

Doug:

McGrath and alanabit allready said it but let take this "proof of innocence" to another level.

Let's agree to assumption the Saddam does not have any WMD. Hey, I'm not stating this as fact, but a mere hypothesis.

Okay, so Saddam does not have any WMD. How would you, if you were he, *prove* that you don't have them?

I'll patiently await your answer...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:39 AM

Hi McGrath... in point of fact the legal standard IS to prove guilty and guilty beyond a shadow of a doupt, but the burden shifts if you are actually brought into a court room, jurys today demand proof of innocence, and now the courts don't even care about that... the supreme court seems to take the attitude kill them all and let god sort them out.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:19 AM

Larry, I think its beyond *reasonable doubt* - but otherwise I think you have it spot on.

Luckily in the UK we manage to keep them alive to sort out a few of the miscarriages of justice many years later - but we still charge em board and lodgings for their stay in prison...

Victims of miscarriage made to pay for stay in jail


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:33 AM

I fear that Delma Banks has been "due processed" to death. Owing to some unusual quirks in the law about state appeals not being heard while a federal court has the case, several critical pieces of new evidence were never presented. There is a long list of problems with this case and none are being considered vecause the committe claims that since attorney's have filed this last ditch appeal too late, they won't have the time to adequately review it. I guess they never heard of an extension..................

Someone on the case commented that if the victim had been black instead of white, the sentence and possibly the verdict as well would have been different........the jury was all white. I guess we are still pretty close to the trees aren't we?

I wonder if anyone put any effort into getting Mo Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center in on this one?

Since the offed 299 last night, I guess they figure that while the stuff is all ready to go, they might as well go for a nice, round 300.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:35 AM

Right you are Bagpuss... I stand... sit corrected, early morning ... fuzzy head. CHeers, Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:56 AM

Bagpuss's link leads to a Guardian article, which explains the position. However one paragraph is worth quoting:
"In February 1997, when the men had served 18 years, the court of appeal quashed the murder convictions because of tainted evidence."
This does not say that the men were found innocent, merely that if the trial had been held in 1997, knowing what is now known of the provenence of some of the evidence, a 'Guilty' verdict might not have been reached.
Of course, had the police known that at the time of the original trial it is possible they would have delayed the trial until such time as they had suitable, substantiable evidence.
The 'double jeopardy' rule prevents re-trial for the same offence if a person is found innocent, but re-trial is often requested to try and overthrow a Guilty verdict. This is often so much later that witnesses who may have added at the time to the police case will no longer be reliable.
As I see it, the rule of English law is that a man is 'innocent until proven guilty', but once proven guilty, the presumption of innocence cannot be relied on.
In these cases, although the original verdict may be quashed, or cited as 'unsound', the defendent is not automatically found to be innocent.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:14 AM

However in most of the cases I have read about, there is evidence that has been deliberately withheld from the defence and from the court. Maybe these sorts of results (where possibly guilty people are released) might make the police and prosecution think twice before using this sort of tactic.

Does anyone know if there is a time limit (and what it is) at which a retrial can no longer be ordered after appeal as opposed to declaring the conviction unsafe and releasing the person? Or is it down to the discretion of the judge and the individual factors in the case?

(sorry for the thread drift)


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:00 AM

Personally, I believe that there has to be a be-all-end-all punishment for people who commit the most horrible crimes. Why should a serial torture killer get the same sentence as a first-time offender who happened to shoot someone in an armed robbery? HOWEVER - if there is any doubt as to the person's guilt, the options need to be explored. If new evidence comes up, it needs to go to trial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM

Kim C serial killers tend not to get the same sentence as someone who shoots someone in an armed robbery. (In the UK) they get different tariffs, which indicates the earliest they can be considered for release. Most serial killers will get a very long tariff or it is indicated that they should never be considered for release. Many people would say that if there was any doubt about a persons guilt then they would not have been convicted - but we all know it happens. And very often, the full picture doesn't come out until a long time after conviction. And it's very difficult to bring people's attention to the doubts if the convicted person is already dead. That's not the only reason I am against the death penalty, but its a compelling one in my book.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:36 AM

Do they carry on with the appeal after the prisoner has been executed in these cases?

I mean, if they find he was not guilty after all, they could always apologise, and pay the relatives some blood money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:42 AM

In the US it depends on if you get a good lawyer or not. And it depends on the laws of each state - what's a capital crime in Tennessee may not be one in Minnesota, for instance.

Right now in Tennessee there is a man on death row for killing a drug dealer years ago. I don't know all the whys and wherefores of the case, but I believe it was his only murder. He may have had some other lesser convictions in the past, I'm not sure. It seems like it would be fair for him to get life in prison, and save the chair for the Ted Bundys of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:43 AM

No, once the exicution is carried out, appeals are ended as moot. However, Massicusettes a few years ago posthumasly aquited Susana Martin, the subject of the great song, Susana Martin was a witch who dwelled in Amesbury... as Brendan Behan reflected... "lot of good it does the f**ker in the box."
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM

If former FBI chief William S. Sessions writes to the Supreme Court "the Banks case is full of errors" (my retranslation) I do not need to know more about the case to have enough doubts to support at least reprieve.

One of the judges supporting him is John J. Gibbons. You can read his doubts about death penalty in general and especially about the present US practise here.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:52 AM

Sage...

No one doubts the US govt did the Sept 11 job. On this forum, for example, I get arguments on the Moloch stuff, the $20 bill folding...things that require interpretation. But there is a mountain of evidence that proves the US govt did the Sept 11 job, and consequently I get little to no argument. Some residual reluctance to admit it, but folks come around when the sites are provided. A poll I saw a while back showed over 70% of people in N Y City thought the US govt did the attacks. Europe has done the most intense reporting on it, and there's no doubt there. They think it's just about oil (which it isn't) but they don't doubt the govt did the attacks for personal reasons. You're a researcher...it's easy to prove the govt did the job. In one day you could locate enough hard reportage to convince anyone. Just print out the damning stories, organize them, engage people in conversation and show them the print out addressing their specific doubt. Some people will never ADMIT the fact, but that's just a mental quirk...they're fearful or they have too much invested in 'the system' to allow themselves to NOT believe in it. Americans KNOW though, instinctively, the govt did the hijackings. Only 4 first-responders in Connecticut volunteered for the smallpox vaccinations...they KNOW the govt is murderous and could be injecting them with poison.

Anyway, that IS the thing that can make a difference. The single thing. Who knows if the person YOU make aware of the facts of Sept 11 will talk to someone who will speak out in front of a camera at just the right moment. The future of the nation depends on YOU doing this thing...this single thing. And then once we get the mass-murderers out of our govt., we can get back to correcting social ills and mending fences with other countries. But first we need to do some unpleasant house-cleaning, and we can't hire it done. We have to do it ourselves. If we don't, we will cease to become a nation.

Look at this...an article today about Richard Perle, one of GWBush's henchmen. Terrorism is now a capital offense, and look at how he cavalierly uses the term when describing someone he just doesn't like. The murderers of Sept 11 have passed legislation to kill you and me, but now they have to ENFORCE it, and look what happens when the rubber meets the road...look at how Wolf Blitzer went into shock:

"An incredulous Blitzer repeatedly asked Perle why he would call Hersh a terrorist, and Perle defended the remark. He denounced the journalist as "irresponsible," adding that he was a "terrorist" because "he sets out to do damage and he will do it by whatever innuendo, whatever distortion he can.""

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/perl-m12.shtml

Blitzer is a media prostitute, and he apparently thinks (like cops and military think, too) that the new Nazi system won't touch him. The servants of the system will be free to beat me and my family to their heart's content, but THEY will remain beyond touching. So this article was SO good to see. Blitzer now knows that what could happen to his colleague Hersh could happen to Blitzer...and I'd bet any amount he's reconsidering his position right now. This is a VERY encouraging story.

Anyway, I have what is in effect a small printing press. Just like the people before the American Revolutionary War copied and passed out pamphlets, I copy and pass out films. The most damning concerning Sept 11 is called 'The Road to Tyranny', and you're welcomed to a copy. Free. I've flooded my local area with them and now send them to newspaper editorial writers and people from forums like this one. I've sent several out to folks at Mudcat already, so if you want a copy, just send me a mailing address at WesWilder@yahoo.com

I ship Media Mail, so it may take a while to get there.

And Bobert...sorry I got off-topic on the execution. Used to be a subject I approached with as much fervor as 9-11, but everything is on hold for me now until we get the mass-murderers out of the govt. Executions, elections...I bring it all back to the BIG problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM

Well, I doubt it. And with the proper research, I can also prove that drinking water causes cancer. Sure it does. Everyone who gets cancer drinks water, don't they? Well, there you go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM

Bobert: my question to you had nothing to do with whether or not the prisoner should receive the death penalty. You are assuming in the title you assigned this thread that he is innocent. I'm merely asking for the proof you have that he is innocent.

As to your question about Saddam, all he has to do to prove he has no wmd is show the inspectors what happend to all of them that it was determined he had in 1997 or 98. That shouldn't be too difficult to do should it?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM

Whoa. . . DredGest--there are some pretty big leaps in that argument. Probably because you have posted it in bits around the site and are thinking of it as a whole piece, but I haven't read them all, and offhand, wouldn't arrive at this same conclusion. But it's a topic for another thread and another day.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: smallpiper
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM

There is no such thing as proven innocent in England and Wales its Guilty or not guilty. The burden of proof is on the prosecution but then they chance their hand on anything that is the tabloids boggy man(or woman) of the month. There is no such thing as true justice in this world.

Hell if there was then all Americans are guilty of murder because the state kills people in their name. In the UK its the queens fault because we are all her subjects and as such have no choice!


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:23 PM

From the New York Times:

The man, Delma Banks Jr., 44, who has long claimed innocence, rejected a plea bargain 15 years ago for life in prison in return for a confession. He could become the 300th person executed in Texas since 1976. A team of former federal judges and prosecutors, including William S. Sessions, former F.B.I. director, has taken up the case with the Supreme Court.

"Mr. Banks's lawyers argue that he received ineffective counsel and that prosecutors blocked eligible blacks from the jury pool, suppressed evidence, secretly paid one of the two most incriminating witnesses and let the other lie.

"It's an execution that should not go forward," said John J. Gibbons, former chief judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, in Philadelphia.

Judge Gibbons, with Mr. Sessions; Timothy K. Lewis, a former Third Circuit judge; and Thomas Sullivan, a former United States attorney, have appealed to the Supreme Court to halt the execution. In their brief, they wrote, "The questions presented in Mr. Banks's petition directly implicate the integrity of the death penalty in this country."


Emphasis mine. Eb


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM

There's a question mark in that heading, Doug -in other words Bobert didn't actually state that Demlma Banks is innocent, the heading just indicates that there are grounds for thinking that he should never have been found guilty.

But of course, if someone is not-guilty, the presumption of innocence applies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 02:04 PM

I don't know that it implicates the integrity of the death penalty as much as it implicates the integrity of the people who were supposed to be working with him.

I have long been suspicious of the plea bargain process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:04 PM

Well Sage, I feel sorry for the folks on death row because a lot of them arrived there through a very flawed process, but we're ALL looking at death sentences now because an illegitimate govt has taken control of the US and is using the power of the US to wreck the world. All other discussions about social ills, etc. are just academic until we correct what went wrong on Sept 11. What went wrong was we let the terrorists get away with putting a lid on an investigation.

With me, I have no doubts about what I should be doing, and it amazes me how Americans can look around and have no plan of action to fight the nazis taking over the country, when all a person has to do is speak. Or type. I have tools (internet, pamphlets, tapes, print outs), and I use those tools to point out the obvious to others. Teddy Roosevelt said it is the duty of every American to keep his mouth open. Foreign interests are about to kill us, but I plan to rail against it.

I've distributed the tape to maybe 400 people, and I imagine 2,000+ have seen it as a result of my efforts. And there's no going back when you see what the Bushes and Clinton carried out. We no longer have a federal government...just a collection of organized criminals murdering to advance tyrannical world government. And they plan to kill BILLIONS before the dust settles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:12 PM

You need to consider some bran muffins, maybe with a nice cup of decaf......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:33 PM

McGrath, right you are. I did not notice the question mark, and thank you for bringing it to my attention. That does put a different light on it. I'll bet Bobert is grateful you got him off the hot seat. Of course he will still have to tackle the question of Saddam though.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:34 PM

Ebbie, why the emphasis about him refusing to confess? Do you mean he should have taken that as a way to keep from being executed? Even if he was innocent?

Thanks, Spaw for posting today's info.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

My notion, kat, is that an innocent person does not want to/will not confess to a murder s/he knows s/he did not commit, even in return for a reduced sentence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM

I, thanks for that, Ebbie. I read you wrong and I thought the way I read it didn't sound quite like you. Thanks for clarifying. I agree with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Beccy
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

Hang on a sec... Isn't anyone going to blame Bush for this? I mean it is Texas, after all. :-)

Beccy


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 04:59 PM

Well, Doug, I believe my question went over your head. The Iraqi's last week took inspectors to a site where hundreds of munitions had been buried and said, here's where we destroyed the chemicals. They even dug it up and, sure enough, there seemed to be a least some level of evidence on their part. That should shift the burden of proff back on the accuser.

Just as in Delma Banks. There is a ton of evidence that the man has been framed and yet the system is going to take his life because he cannot prove his innocence. And this should not be a partisan isssue, Doug. One of your countrymen has had his constitutional rights trampled and he will have probably been executed by the time you read this. Does this represent the America you love? It sure doesn't for me.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM

Aw come on, Bobert, that's not proof! They just showed the inspectors a hole in the ground. I won't press it, though, because that is not the subject of this thread, and we have wandered too far from it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM

Dougie:

What the heck is wrong with you anyway? You knothead! This entire thread is about proof and you somehow have the idea that the burden of proof falls on the accused. I don't know what I'm gonna do with you! Now I know that some of these threads are somewhat, ahhh, challenging but at least try to keep up.

Okay, I'll type real slow here.... How does one go about proving one's innocence? And, why, in a nation of law that presumes innocence, should they have to? The evidence points toward a frame up here. Lots of real responsible and educated people who have reviewed this case say that Banks has been set up and now you think it's up to Banks, who has not left prison in 23 years shoul;d, or can for that matter, prove his innocence?

Like I said, Doug. Sometimes you are a real knothead and, well, knotheads are difficult to deal with.

But your my favorite knothead!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: GUEST,vectis sans cookie
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 06:47 PM

On the face of it the USA should put the execution on hold while they reopen the investigation. If the guy DID have a fair trial then they can go ahead and judicially murder him if they feel they must. If the trial was dodgy then he should be presumed not guilty (reasonable doubt) and let free.

The various methods of killing prisoners seem totally barbaric to me. They take far too long and cause anguish to the one being killed. A dead person can't be apologised to and released if the system got it wrong. Life can mean life but a death sentance is two wrongs making a bigger wrong.


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Subject: SUPREMES STOPPED THE EXECUTION!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:27 PM

It gives me GREAT PLEASURE to be able to post this!!!

The Associated Press
Wednesday, March 12, 2003; 7:00 PM


The Supreme Court on Wednesday stopped Texas from executing its 300th inmate since capital punishment resumed in the United States in 1977, granting a dramatic last-minute stay to condemned killer Delma Banks.

Banks' claims that he was wrongly convicted of a murder 23 years ago were backed by three former federal judges.

His lawyers told justices that he was poorly represented at trial, that prosecutors improperly kept blacks off the jury, and that testimony from two prosecution witnesses was shaky. Banks is black, his victim was white and the jury was all-white.

The court issued the stay, without comment, about 10 minutes before the 44-year-old was to be put to death for the 1980 murder of 16-year-old Richard Wayne Whitehead, a co-worker at a restaurant. Banks shot Whitehead "for the hell of it" after a night of drinking, according to testimony Banks gave at his trial.

Banks has been on death row 22 years, longer than Whitehead was alive.

One of the three former federal judges supporting the Supreme Court intervention was former FBI Director William Sessions, who submitted a brief to the high court in which he cited "uncured constitutional errors" in Banks' case.

The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals this week refused to block Banks' execution, and the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles would not hear his plea because it was filed too late.

The majority of last-minute death row appeals are rejected by the Supreme Court, although justices have stopped a handful of executions in the past few years. Last year, the justices blocked executions in Florida, Tennessee and Texas.

The Texas inmate who received a stay, Thomas Miller-El, won his Supreme Court appeal last month. The court ruled that Miller-El, who is black, deserved a new chance to press his claim that prosecutors stacked his jury with whites and death penalty supporters.

The stay in Banks case will remain in effect until the court decides whether to review his case. No justices noted objections to the reprieve.

Prosecutors and the victim's family have insisted Banks received a fair trial.

"All these articles about poor Delma, poor Delma and how much of a raw deal he got," said Larry Whitehead, the victim's father, "stopping a youngster's life at 16 years old is a raw deal."

Sessions and others had told the court in a filing that the claims raised in the appeal "go to the very heart of the effective functioning of the capital punishment system."

Texas accounts for more than one-third of the 835 executions in the United States since the U.S. Supreme Court in 1976 allowed capital punishment to resume. Virginia has the second-highest total, with 87.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:27 PM

Well, the day's almost over, and I'm wondering - is he still with us or not?

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:31 PM

Kat you posted that just as I posted my question! How's that for synchronicity?!? Thanks for the info - and glad he survived.

daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:32 PM

Praise the Lord!

10 minutes before the scheduled execution, the Supreme Court gave into the emense pressure to stop it.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:37 PM

daylia:

Yeah, I thought you'd missed something so thus, my post. Oh well. All's well that ends well. Even though Delma still has the Texas system very much wanting him dead. Oh, those Texans! String 'em up and ask questions later! Hmmmmm? Remind anyone of the Texan in the White House. He sat on his thumbs as the governor of Texas while other Delma Banks were executed. Them folks just don't seem to civilized.

But as fir Delam Banks, Jr.? Whew! Fir now...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:47 PM

If one innocent person is excuted then that's far to many. It does seem to me that this ugly angel of death keeps the throne hell well warmed with the damn souls of less fortunate. WE had one of our own mudcatters, John Nolan, a reporter (formaly a cop in Scotland) cover a death penatly case in Lawerance or Lowell, Mass (USA). As an experienced reported he dug up all he could in order to correctly cover a story on a man on death row. As he dug deeper he found that something was amiss. Eventually because of John (& no other reaason) this man was released, not from death row but from prison under request of the DA not beacuse of an unfair trial or a error in the law, seems that something had been missed like the man was innocent. It may not seem that getting rid of the death penatly because of 1 or 2 miscarrages of justice is worth it but if it was your father or daughter were sitting in the hot seat you'd have a quick change of heart or if it was your child that was murdered & now you know that the real killer is still about would the death of an other innocent help to even the scales of justice. I don't think that any one really belives in this day & age that the death penatly is still the way to go. Why's it still here? Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 07:50 PM

Weird. The above account, and one more that I just finished reading online, says Banks said he did it. In the account I posted way back there, it says he has always claimed he was innocent, that a convict had framed him (the murder weapon was found at the convict's home). So which is true?

I, as it happens, am against capital punishment so I'm glad he's gotten a stay- but if he did what some accounts said he did - shot the 16-year-old in the head - he was NOT wrongly convicted. Poor lawyers and an all-white jury don't take that guilt away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM

Ebbie:

Now I don't know where Mr Banks confessed to this murder and I haven't heard that, or read it. But many a man has confessed in Texas just to stop whatever it is that the cops do to folks when they want 'em to confess. Then, after the "whatever" stops, they recant their confessions. Normal in Texas.

But the way I understand this one, isthat this an has maintined his innocence, refused to make a deal in confessing for a reduced sentence and was convicted by the testimony of a guy trying to save his own butt, and who alos later recanted...

If you know more, I'd be open to hearing of it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:31 PM

Just try to imagine being ten minutes away from being killed after spending 13 years is it on death row?

It strikes me that America must have a really strange definition of "cruel and unusual punishment". I can't imagine there can be many places where that kind of thing happens - and that's what I'd define as "unusual".


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:19 PM

Bobert, the article that kat posted above claims he said he shot the kid in the head 'for the hell of it'. I found that article with google and another one that says basically the same thing. Earlier I above posted an excerpt from a New York Times article which says he claimed innocence and that the man who reported that Banks had spoken of killing the boy and taking his car was of less than credible standing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:37 PM

In reading a lot of online about this case, there seems to be a lot of differing info on ALL aspects of the case. It was so obvious that this one was one that needed another hard look. When the review board turned it down becasue it was filed late, the chairman said that his attorneys had "missed by a mile" and that had they accepted the petition they "would not have had time" to review it properly! For Christ's sake, have these fuckheads never heard they could actually postpone the execution.....I mean it IS their job and all......

Barry Finn, once again my friend you speak with eloquence on a tough topic. If one innocent person is executed the system is flawed. I have been privileged to hear both Sam Shepard Jr, and Mo Dees talk on the subject and I am continually amazed that anyone can claim to live in a humane and just society when the death penalty is still seen with any favor.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 09:50 PM

Yo, Spawzer:

The Texas Review Board has no actual real people on it. Did you know that? Nah, I didn't think so. They just make up some names and print it on some officail looking letterhead and then when it's time for the execution, some highschool kid gettin' 7 bucks an hour is paid to run off a bunch of "denial" letters and send 'em out to everyone whoes sposed to have one in their file when the Delma Banks finally get off death row... the hard way!

And then when asked for clemency or a reprieve the governor throws up his hands and says that he can't over-rule the Texas Review Board.

Welcome to American justice. Texas style...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:47 PM

Here's a little bit of one article, from the AP:

    HUNTSVILLE, Texas - The Supreme Court blocked Texas on Wednesday from executing its 300th inmate since the state resumed capital punishment in 1982, granting a stay just minutes before the condemned man was to be put to death.

    Delma Banks' claims that he was wrongly convicted of a murder 23 years ago had been backed by three former federal judges.

    His lawyers told justices he was poorly represented at trial, prosecutors improperly kept blacks off the jury and testimony from two prosecution witnesses was shaky. Banks is black, his victim was white and the jury was all-white.

    "I just thank the Lord," Banks said after being told of the court's decision. "Give Jesus all the credit."

    Relatives of Banks who were waiting outside the prison jumped joyously and hugged as word spread.

    Prosecutors said they would continue to seek Banks' execution.

    "I wish we could have brought it to a conclusion today," said James Elliott, who helped win Banks' conviction in 1980. "But I've been here 23 years and I'm prepared to stay here to see it through.


I went to an article posted on my Earthlink web page, but that probably isn't a stable link. You should find a lot over at the Google news page.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 11:02 PM

I used to be against capital punishment but then I read about this state official that made tens of millions of dollars from this

story


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Subject: RE: BS: Innocent man to be executed in Texas?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 06:00 AM

I posted this link on another thread, but thought it might be relevant here too, give the number of people Texas executes.

US uproar at sloppy DNA tests blunders

Bagpuss


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Mudcat time: 19 May 5:33 PM EDT

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