BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat

Subject: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM

A few times I've noticed that when someone posts saying they are a ntive of a non-English speaking country, this very often tends to be followed by posts that cast doubt on whether they are genuine, and not infrequently by remarks that come very close to racism.

We've had it recently in another thread with a post from a Russian, and we've had it famously with some posts one time from some indicating they were Polish, and interested in sea shanties, and there've been other times as well.

It's as if some people who just don't seem to really believe in the existence of a real non-English speaking world where people use computers and internet access. Very strange.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:58 AM

I will have a look at that thread to see what you mean. I think xenophobia may be too strong a word. The problem is that on the Net, you can make a remark which would be quite inoffensive in a pub, perhaps. If somebody says, "Bloody Cornish sheep shaggers!" to me in a pub, I can appreciate the spirit in which it is meant. You have often pointed out that we have to be very careful in how we express ourselves here - and of course you are right. I'll check out that thread later on.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:59 AM

McGrath,

In the cases I have seen, the phobia has been more "guestophobia" than anything else. I'm sure most people here would be delighted to welcome people from non-English speaking countries.

Let's face it, it reflects well both on the forum and "our" folk music if people from "outside" come in and show an interest. It also adds a new dimension in terms of folk music from other countries and knowledge of other cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Declan
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:07 AM

Yes there is a good bit of xenophobia here. People making cheap jokes at the expense of people who may not have perfect English reflects badly on the person making the comment, but also on the Forum.

I wonder how well the person who had a go at our Russian guest would have done if they had to make a contribution to a Forum in another language.

And as for the (thankfully) short-lived FCUK thread - the less said the better.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Dead Horse
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:17 AM

Never met anyone or anything from the planet Xeno, so dont know how I'd react, but as for fellow humans, I am all for 'em.
(except for "Bloody Cornish sheep shaggers!" of course):-)

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:22 AM

Actually the word xenophobia comes from the Greek word "xenos", which means stranger, guest, or foreigner, so it wold do for "guestphobia" as well.

I think, as it crops up here, it isn't actually antagonism towards strangers at all normally, it's antagonism towards people who are identified as not being strangers, but as resident trolls in a fresh disguise, intent on stirring things up.

Myself, I think that kind of detective work comes a bit too close to witch-finding, and is only too liable to end up doing damage to people who don't deserve it. And when it involves people who actually are non-English speakers being brave enough to post on the Mudcat, that's something that really should be avoided. The best thing, surely, is to accept people at face value.

So what if you get taken in now and then? Chesterton once pointed out that people who worried too much about being "taken in" failed to appreciate that being taken in is the way to see the inside of places ad things.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:31 AM

I agree McGrath

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: mooman
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:45 AM

Indeed Kevin and others...! Some of our most erudite posters are non-native English speakers (thinking of Wolfgang, Masato, Suzanne amongst many others).

moo

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: MMario
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:47 AM

not to mention everyone from the US!

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:07 AM

it is very much related to what the 'new' poster begins with. We have had a number of people from non-English cultures who were accepted and welcomed easily and immediately..especially, but not necessarily, if they stuck to music.

But when someone with only 'guest' status, with no previous history, starts or drops into a BS or political thread and begins with controversy and complaint, it is not surprising that some defenses go up.

This is one of the legacies of trolls and 'guests' who are unwilling to adopt a name.....we have had so many bad experiences with 'problem' posters, that the Mudcat equivalent of profiling does occur, I'm afraid. (with posters from Ireland, for example, it seems like the first order of business is often to establish "which side are you on?")

I'd hope that, without evidence, members would NOT 'read the minds' of posters and accuse them of being troublemakers until it is clear. And NEVER should anyone denigrate another culture, race, ethnic background simply on that basis!

I agree that everyone should be given the benefit of the doubt

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:31 AM

This is one of the legacies of trolls and 'guests' who are unwilling to adopt a name.....we have had so many bad experiences with 'problem' posters, that the Mudcat equivalent of profiling does occur, I'm afraid.

I'm afraid not Bill. The legacy here is.

1: The encouragement of trolls by indignant responses to them when ignoring was possible.

2: The refusal for about 3 years to address issues that needed addresing. This split forum will help matters for example as the BS filter helped some.

The vetting route could only work on a tight closed members only forum.

As for problem posters, the name "Janet" get's branded here from time to time. She never is seen on the newsgroups these days. Why? because people learned to ignore her.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Morticia
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 11:38 AM

I wonder whether you are just focussing on the negative here, Kevin? I have seen many english- as- a-second language people fully welcomed and embraced as part of this forum.....what about Skarpi,or Escamillo?

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: mg
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM

he's right. I have been horrified by this..and the requests weren't (the ones I recall) in any way controversial..just looking for routine answers etc.    mg

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:36 PM

I don't think it's xenophobia. I think it's a contratrianism born of the desire to be the smartest kid in a crowded class.

One can stand out from the crowd by being brilliant, being friendly or being contrary. The first is difficult, the second may not reap the desired reward, the third works without fail.

...and here I am doing it *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: C-flat
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 01:14 PM

"So what if you get taken in now and then? Chesterton once pointed out that people who worried too much about being "taken in" failed to appreciate that being taken in is the way to see the inside of places ad things."
The nail is hit squarely on the head McGrath. I agree that there is a danger of an unwitting and friendly Guest being caught up in a witch-hunt to expose flamers.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Gareth
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 02:53 PM

Actually when sombody calls me a Welsh "Sheepshagger" I don't asume that it is XENPHOBIA - I think it is envy.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 06:17 PM

"Ewe are my sunshine, my only sunshine,
Ewe make me happy when skies are grey..."

You're quite right, Morticia, there are Mudcat regulars who are highly regarded whose first a language isn't English, those three and others as well. Most of the time the Mudcat is a pretty friendly place for newcomers of all sorts.

But there was a thread the other day which demonstrated this process in action, and fortunately it got sorted out quickly enough, and that thread wasn't an appropriate place to talk about this issue. But I think it's something we need to be careful about.

I'd imagine if you got a hostile response to an initial post anyway it's pretty off-putting, but even more so if you're doing it in a foreign language. And one of the things I valuie most about teh Mudcat is the insight and the contact it gives with other cultures, so I'm not just being altruistic about saying we ought to be especially worried about chasing such people away. (And if it is actually te case that, for example, someone posting as from Mongolia is actually sitting in a bedsit in Manchester, rather than a Yurt a few miles outside Ulaanbaatar, what the hell.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 07:45 PM

Kevin, I agree and I think Jon's postings as we;; as Bill D's need to be considered too. We do have to guard against this but as the old saying goes, once bitten, twice shy. Let's try to play it your way in the future and do the best we can to ward off the demons which sometimes possess us.

How did the thread in question "sort itself out" and did it continue properly? Anything learned there?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 07:56 PM

Here y'are - and it ended up good and welcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: GUEST, herc
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:35 PM

. . . geeze louise. . .

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Felipa
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 08:49 PM

I thought the reason the thread from the Russian was treated with suspicion was because it contained quiz questions that looked like something #1peasant had written, not because it was from a Russian. (purportedly? I haven't kept up with the messages on that thread after reading the first few)

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: mg
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:36 PM

how could someone asking about Polish sea shanties count as being bitten, if indeed it does..there was something else that I forget. Unless people are list administrators and can see a pattern and can link it to something harmful, how can innocent-sounding questions be challenged , or why should they be? mg

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:48 PM

My "bitten" Mary had nothing to do with Polish chanteys. I was talking about the pattern here of anon guests that Bill D. refers to and what that has done. I think most of ue are trying to get past it, but the old openness of this place is long gone because of a few problems.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Troll
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 09:53 PM

Actually, Kevin, the Mongolians prefer the word "Ger" to yurt. Yurt is a Russian word and they aren't all that keen on things Russian anymore. I ahve received e-mails from Russia where the sender used impecable English and some where the English was so poor as to be almost indeciperable.
A contact is a contact is a contact and they should all be answered in a civil manner if one is going to answer them at all.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:29 PM

This is why the Brits are emptying their bladders about 'xenophobia':

Commie Repression Legislation

The communist Brits can't even engage in internet repartee now. And all links to places like this will be incriminating if one of the Brits calls a Frenchman a Frog. Five years in prison! Next case.

More links to similar stories:

Reasons for British Urinary Problems

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:44 AM

What is the difference between Mick Jagger and a hebardean farmer... Mick says Hey you get of my clowd, and the hebardean farmer says Hey McClowd get offa ma ewe... cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 06:00 AM

To pick up on remarks earlier about commenting on people's English/spelling etc. I have not generally been shocked by xenophobia on Mudcat(though I havent yet read the Russian thread referred to). Most of the bigotry you read comes from obvious troll-type people and therfore I dont think of it as a Mudcatters problem, more of an "unwanted guest" problem. But the odften offensive pedantry abot people's inadequate spelling, grammar etc had an unplasant, scholl-teachery type of sarcam to it sometimes which I think is put-downy and not helpful to discussion, and that is something often exhibited by mainstream Mudcatters.It's fine taking the piss out of people you know, but when it's done to newcomers or people you don't know it can be quite hutrful.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:03 AM

Fair comment spaw but I think McGrath has it right.

A side track, but a little view on part of my outlook on the death penalty. I'd rather a guilty man walk free than an innocent man hung. Time stands a chance of correcting injustices one way...

Hope that makes some sense in the context of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:10 AM

It does Jon, it does. We got ourselves in the mindset and we have to work our way back out. Discusssing why or how we got there might be informative, but the bottom line is that you have it right and we need to continue to address the problem, limit the paranoia.

I think the other thread mentioned here also shows something that is important. Even when others are wanting to give the benefit of the doubt and go on, there are some who seem to need to drag it back up later in the thread. That too is counter productive. The thread was moving along and yet a few still wanted to rehash the situation. That seems to have stopped on that thread at least. To paraphrase the line in "Field of Dreams".....If it passes, let it go.(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: mg
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM

I still don't get it. If someone asks for maps of our water supply, electrical grids, armories etc....then maybe we should get a little suspicious. If they ask something about music, culture, etc...what does it matter? Unless it is all coded and part of the great conspiracy...mg

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: GUEST,red-faced idiot
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:49 PM

Hi McGrath. I'm not sure if I agree at all with your theories in this post, but I may be the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so I'll try to explain.

I'm the one who reacted so quickly in that "Russian Lass, Irish questions" thread and caused katlaughing's response about "brain drain'.I assure you all the cranial dripping was mine, not hers. I was in a foul mood that day for reasons I won't get into, and when "The bells went off" instead of just ignoring it and going to another thread, I posted a couple of sentences implying that kat was encouraging one of those Irish flame threads that have happened so many times here and always get so bitter. Check out all those old threads and their flash-points if you want to see what got my attention so quickly.

Obviously I was wrong to react in print that quickly, but that's why I'm calling myself 'red faced idiot'

And boy do I want to apologise to kat, and to you McGrath. You're one of the kindest mudguys around here, always involved, and perhaps if you'd known that my reaction had everything to do with a bad mood, and nothing to do with xenophobia, it might have helped.

red-faced idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 02:05 PM

Felipa wrote: I thought the reason the thread from the Russian was treated with suspicion was because it contained quiz questions that looked like something #1peasant had written... To my mind a neat example of what McGrath is rightly concerned about.

If someone comes here looking for help with quiz questions about Ireland, why the hell should we do anything else but take it at face value? What's the loss if it turns out to be Conrad (#1 peasant), who in any case has proved more than willing to put his name to more provocative posts than that one.

McGrath is right not only because of this example but because it typifies the smartarse retorts that other one-off visitors have had. I vaguely remember someone seeking advice about a failed relationship. The degree to which some Mudcatters cosset each other in such matters is almost nauseating, but this woman's mistake was to be a Stranger, so she was immediately categorised by the worldly-wise as a Fake. As though we really could not have afforded to run that risk! How precious do we think we are?

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 02:11 PM

Guest RFI, I should just say that I got dragged away from the pewter before I could submit my post above, and that it was written before I'd seen yours.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:29 PM

and the world would be a better place if more folks would just see themselves like RFI has done and own up to it. We all have days like that and post things we wish we hadn't.

I truly apperciate it when someone takes the trouble to clear up a situation like that.

so..RFI, stay with us under another name....I think you have been baptized...;-)

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM

The Joe Clone who cleaned the RFI posts off that thread at RFI's request noted something similar Bill. Doing so may have made the thread a bit weird in the reading now, but seems to have been a good move.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 07:54 PM

The reason I started this thread wasn't because the Mudcat is an unfriendly and unwelcoming place generally, but because it's as well to be careful.

And I thought that discussing it, here in this thread, might help stop the issue becoming a distraction taking over a musical thread - a sort of lightning conductor.

Incidentally I was pleased that, in the course of writing a post up the thread, something clicked in my mind and I pinned down something that had been hovering on the edge of my awareness, when I wrote, in relation to the suspicions people sometimes express about some GUESTs "It isn't actually antagonism towards strangers at all normally, it's antagonism towards people who are identified as not being strangers, but as resident trolls in a fresh disguise, intent on stirring things up."

It's in discussions and arguments that you sometimes find out what it is you actually believe, and that's why they can be useful.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:58 PM

McGrath,

At first I didn't agree with your use of word xenophobia. I thought that saying that such behavior was due you fear was unfair, it seemed more like smartass behavior than anything else. (and I know smartass behavior! I've participated in a GUEST roasting or two) Then I read John Hardly's very astute post. Fear is exactly the right word. It IS the desire to be clever as John postulates but it is also fear, fear of being "fooled" by someone posing as a Russian or whatever. I was afraid of being fooled. Then I realized that if a troll contiues to lie to me when all I do is treat him/her with respect then it is the troll who has reason for embarrassment. The behavior of some Mudcatters toward guests, because of some trolls, is causing the same sort of attitude that much of America feels toward terrorists. It is a perception that it is better to clobber anyone who "seems suspicious" than to let a single troll succeed. Of course here the stakes are much lower and perhaps we should give the benefit of the doubt.

Or perhaps not. I'm just sort of thinking out loud here.

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:36 AM

Great thread, McGrath. Anyone who's witnessed my long, steady *whine* about this topic over the years already knows how I feel, so I'll shut up this time. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: xenophobia on the Mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:47 AM

The worst that can happen if a troll gets away with pretending to be, say, a reporter for some big newspaper doing a story on folk music, would be:
1) We'd all be nice to him and try to answer the question.
Some of us would be naive and some of us might just pretend to believe to keep the discussion from being sidetracked or looking stupid later on if the person was for real. There would be no way to tell which category the 'nice' people fit into.
2) We might sense a troll later on from the nature of their posts and bow out. It doesn't do any good to announce this decision. You'll either have people telling you you're paranoid or provoke a mob of Mudcat villagers with farm implements and torches heading off to storm the castle. The flaming starts, but it's not the troll who's responsible.
3) We might feel stupid for having fallen for it. Big deal. Being nice to someone by mistake is NOT something I'm ever going to regret.

On the other hand, if it's a real reporter and we go off on 'exposing' him, we do more harm than any troll could dream of.
See 3) above - we might feel both stupid and mean and wish we'd done 1).